Swedish anti-immigration right plans "offensive" pride parade
July 23, 2015 3:50 AM Subscribe
Next week is pride week in Sweden and even social conservatives are getting in on the fun. The catch? They intend to host an LGBT pride parade through suburbs which contain large muslim immigrant populations. Left-wing activists have called the pride parade a racist attempt to offend muslims and are planning a counter-demonstration.
The protest is organised, by Jan Sjunnesson, a journalist closely associated with the the anti-immigration right-wing Swedish Democratic party. In recent opinion polls the party polled 23.3% which, if followed in elections would make them Sweden's second largest political party. The party is linked with fascism and the far right (associations they would dispute)
(NB:Google Translate links)
I wish the counter-demonstrators would just ignore it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:02 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:02 AM on July 23, 2015
I look forward to seeing which side Metafilter cleaves to.
I trust that they are marching for pride about as much as I trust their joining in with the Muhammad cartoon thing was about free speech. It's about provocation against a minority group they hate and want out of their country while pretending to fight for liberal values. Screw em'.
That said, people who really care about pride should march wherever they feel they need to no matter what religious sensibilities it offends.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:08 AM on July 23, 2015 [28 favorites]
I trust that they are marching for pride about as much as I trust their joining in with the Muhammad cartoon thing was about free speech. It's about provocation against a minority group they hate and want out of their country while pretending to fight for liberal values. Screw em'.
That said, people who really care about pride should march wherever they feel they need to no matter what religious sensibilities it offends.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:08 AM on July 23, 2015 [28 favorites]
Something similar was tried in Nørrebro, Copenhagen about a decade ago. Nørrebro is one of the most ethnically diverse areas of Copenhagen (let alone Denmark! You really have no idea how overwhelmingly white Denmark is). Usual right-wing pundits staged the Copenhagen Pride float to run down Nørrebrogade - the main thoroughfare - and predictably enough a handful of young, stupid, easy-to-anger hotheads got involved. It was blown out of proportions by the media (I say this because I was there) and Danish People's Party (right-wing). Job done.
SD are scumbags. I refer you to the infamous iron-bar incident:
The videos, recorded by MP Kent Ekeroth, and featuring him and fellow Sweden Democrats Erik Almqvist (MP) and Christian Westling, showed Almqvist arguing with comedian Soran Ismail. Almqvist was thereafter referring to Sweden as "my country, not your country" as an insult at Ismail. They were also shown arguing with a drunken man. A woman was also seen approaching Kent Ekeroth while filming, he then called her a whore and pushed her out of the way. A few minutes later they are seen picking up iron bars. Only a month after party leader Åkesson had instated a zero-tolerance policy towards racism in the party, the video caused Almqvist to leave his position as the party's economic policy spokesperson and his place in the executive committee on November 14. He excused himself as having been under a lot of pressure and threats of violence at the time.
Oh, and the backpack incident:
Only two weeks after Almqvist and Ekeroth were forced to step down, fellow MP Lars Isovaara reported being robbed of his backpack and pushed out of his wheelchair by "two unknown men of an immigrant background". When trying to get into the Riksdag, Isovaara was himself reported by the police for racial abuse against safety guards. The Sweden Democrats initially defended Isovaara, but backed down when Expressen revealed that Isovaara had actually forgot his backpack at a restaurant, and that the two men had helped him when he fell out of his wheelchair.
posted by kariebookish at 4:20 AM on July 23, 2015 [23 favorites]
SD are scumbags. I refer you to the infamous iron-bar incident:
The videos, recorded by MP Kent Ekeroth, and featuring him and fellow Sweden Democrats Erik Almqvist (MP) and Christian Westling, showed Almqvist arguing with comedian Soran Ismail. Almqvist was thereafter referring to Sweden as "my country, not your country" as an insult at Ismail. They were also shown arguing with a drunken man. A woman was also seen approaching Kent Ekeroth while filming, he then called her a whore and pushed her out of the way. A few minutes later they are seen picking up iron bars. Only a month after party leader Åkesson had instated a zero-tolerance policy towards racism in the party, the video caused Almqvist to leave his position as the party's economic policy spokesperson and his place in the executive committee on November 14. He excused himself as having been under a lot of pressure and threats of violence at the time.
Oh, and the backpack incident:
Only two weeks after Almqvist and Ekeroth were forced to step down, fellow MP Lars Isovaara reported being robbed of his backpack and pushed out of his wheelchair by "two unknown men of an immigrant background". When trying to get into the Riksdag, Isovaara was himself reported by the police for racial abuse against safety guards. The Sweden Democrats initially defended Isovaara, but backed down when Expressen revealed that Isovaara had actually forgot his backpack at a restaurant, and that the two men had helped him when he fell out of his wheelchair.
posted by kariebookish at 4:20 AM on July 23, 2015 [23 favorites]
"During Stockholm Pride we celebrate together for the equal value and against LGBT hate, racism and sexism. We never do it with actors who do not respect everyone's inviolable value.
This suggests that anti-racism activists should never march with people who are sexist or homophobic.
posted by Thing at 4:21 AM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
This suggests that anti-racism activists should never march with people who are sexist or homophobic.
posted by Thing at 4:21 AM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think it's a great idea. This gives those communities an opportunity to say "We support LGBT rights, and march with you proudly."
They're going to do that...right?
posted by oceanjesse at 4:26 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
They're going to do that...right?
posted by oceanjesse at 4:26 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I look forward to seeing which side Metafilter cleaves to
Look into SD before making any rash proclamations. You might not want your username to be associated with SD sympathies in google searches.
posted by kariebookish at 4:27 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Look into SD before making any rash proclamations. You might not want your username to be associated with SD sympathies in google searches.
posted by kariebookish at 4:27 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is this going to be an LGBT parade without any LGBT?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:28 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:28 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Obviously the right-wingers are assholes, but I really have no sympathy for anyone who is going to be offended by the mere existence of gay people. That includes Muslims.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:28 AM on July 23, 2015 [28 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:28 AM on July 23, 2015 [28 favorites]
Considering this whole thing is clearly a sham, that brings up another question: Who's actually going to march in this so-called pride parade? Presumably, actual LGBT folk aren't going to have anything to do with this.
So is this just going to be a bunch of right-wing operatives wearing rented Village People outfits and trying to rile up the local Muslim population? Because that's what it sounds like.
posted by Strange Interlude at 4:31 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
So is this just going to be a bunch of right-wing operatives wearing rented Village People outfits and trying to rile up the local Muslim population? Because that's what it sounds like.
posted by Strange Interlude at 4:31 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Still it's kind of a half-step forward if you can get any quasi-fascist party supporting any of the people that Hitler worked to exterminate.
But I think they're just embracing the Internet version of "Free Speech", where you're not using your Freedom if you aren't offending somebody.
Just use the term "strange bedfellows" as often as you can and see if it pisses them off.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:32 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
But I think they're just embracing the Internet version of "Free Speech", where you're not using your Freedom if you aren't offending somebody.
Just use the term "strange bedfellows" as often as you can and see if it pisses them off.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:32 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I support gay people who live in the targeted suburbs, who will inevitably be the people who suffer the most because of this mess. The last thing they need is for the cause of gay liberation to be associated with hatred and white supremacy.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:34 AM on July 23, 2015 [33 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:34 AM on July 23, 2015 [33 favorites]
Still it's kind of a half-step forward if you can get any quasi-fascist party supporting any of the people that Hitler worked to exterminate.
Is cynically using people to create discord so you can make political gains and divide other people politically in the fallout really a form of "supporting" a group's rights though? No, it's a pretty typical sociopathic manipulation of the kind employed by the sneakiest, bored playground bullies everywhere.
posted by saulgoodman at 4:47 AM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
Is cynically using people to create discord so you can make political gains and divide other people politically in the fallout really a form of "supporting" a group's rights though? No, it's a pretty typical sociopathic manipulation of the kind employed by the sneakiest, bored playground bullies everywhere.
posted by saulgoodman at 4:47 AM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
If ever you wanted an illustrative example of problematic appropriation, the "right wing" (read: racist) attempts to weaponise Pride has all the hallmarks of a puerile 'gotcha' of the most odious kind - "hey look, we're just doing this thing, you love this thing right, and those other people hate it but you love them, har har har, where's your moral consistency now!" It's the tactics of a bullying pre-teen with an inflated sense of their own intelligence, and deserves the same scorn.
posted by Dysk at 4:53 AM on July 23, 2015 [40 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 4:53 AM on July 23, 2015 [40 favorites]
Huffh, what a mess. I generally come down against provocations like the Muhammed cartoons, but I'm actually for Pride parades in Muslim neighbourhoods, both because there are queer Muslims who need the support, and because we (Muslims and non-Muslims) must reject the idea that certain areas in a liberal, tolerant country can be 'no-go' for queer people, even when they're demonstrative.
However, in this case I would hope it becomes kind of a moot point as I don't think any self-respecting LGBT individuals or groups would associate with such an event/organisation, which makes this not a Pride parade, but a sick and appropriative publicity stunt, and easy to condemn.
posted by Drexen at 4:53 AM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
However, in this case I would hope it becomes kind of a moot point as I don't think any self-respecting LGBT individuals or groups would associate with such an event/organisation, which makes this not a Pride parade, but a sick and appropriative publicity stunt, and easy to condemn.
posted by Drexen at 4:53 AM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
>a bunch of right-wing operatives wearing rented Village People outfits and trying to rile up the local Muslim population?
I think it's a great cover story. "We didn't WANT to dress up in fetish togs and grab each other's butts, you understand... we were just doing it to offend the Muslims." We got a lot of loudly anti-gay congresspeople in the US who I bet would be REALLY into this...
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:59 AM on July 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
I think it's a great cover story. "We didn't WANT to dress up in fetish togs and grab each other's butts, you understand... we were just doing it to offend the Muslims." We got a lot of loudly anti-gay congresspeople in the US who I bet would be REALLY into this...
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:59 AM on July 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
Facism? Discrimination over whether or not people have faces?
posted by kcds at 5:05 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by kcds at 5:05 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
> I look forward to seeing which side Metafilter cleaves to.
Is that what this is? Sports? It had looked to me like the page titled "Let's you and him fight" from the right-wing strategy guide.
posted by ardgedee at 5:08 AM on July 23, 2015 [28 favorites]
Is that what this is? Sports? It had looked to me like the page titled "Let's you and him fight" from the right-wing strategy guide.
posted by ardgedee at 5:08 AM on July 23, 2015 [28 favorites]
Presumably, actual LGBT folk aren't going to have anything to do with this.
Just because you're LGBT doesn't make you impervious to Islamophobia.
posted by PenDevil at 5:12 AM on July 23, 2015 [23 favorites]
Just because you're LGBT doesn't make you impervious to Islamophobia.
posted by PenDevil at 5:12 AM on July 23, 2015 [23 favorites]
If ever you wanted an illustrative example of problematic appropriation, the "right wing" (read: racist) attempts to weaponise Pride has all the hallmarks of a puerile 'gotcha' of the most odious kind - "hey look, we're just doing this thing, you love this thing right, and those other people hate it but you love them, har har har, where's your moral consistency now!" It's the tactics of a bullying pre-teen with an inflated sense of their own intelligence, and deserves the same scorn.
The tactics are bad and divisive. The group undertaking them is reprehensible. But the question of moral consistency is real. Those working against prejudice have left themselves open wide to this stunt. There was a very famous example of Ken Livingstone, then Mayor of London, sharing a platform with al-Qaradawi, a notorious anti-semite, homophobe, and misogynist. Peter Tatchell has led a campaign against such hypocrisy for some years now but, predictably, he's been shouted down.
People in an oppressed group don't get a free pass on oppressing others, but sometimes it seems like it's easier to look the other way than make hard moral choices about our allies.
posted by Thing at 5:15 AM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
The tactics are bad and divisive. The group undertaking them is reprehensible. But the question of moral consistency is real. Those working against prejudice have left themselves open wide to this stunt. There was a very famous example of Ken Livingstone, then Mayor of London, sharing a platform with al-Qaradawi, a notorious anti-semite, homophobe, and misogynist. Peter Tatchell has led a campaign against such hypocrisy for some years now but, predictably, he's been shouted down.
People in an oppressed group don't get a free pass on oppressing others, but sometimes it seems like it's easier to look the other way than make hard moral choices about our allies.
posted by Thing at 5:15 AM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
anyone got a sousaphone?
posted by indubitable at 5:16 AM on July 23, 2015 [52 favorites]
posted by indubitable at 5:16 AM on July 23, 2015 [52 favorites]
Facism? Discrimination over whether or not people have faces?
I don't know about you, but I hate those people with faces, and I hate their stupid faces too.
Down with faces.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:25 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't know about you, but I hate those people with faces, and I hate their stupid faces too.
Down with faces.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:25 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Many European countries are known for their progressive social programs and some for their equality among genders, but many of these same ones are also blatantly xenophobic and nationalistic, if not outright racist to residents of color. That disparity is perplexing.
posted by numaner at 5:34 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by numaner at 5:34 AM on July 23, 2015
I'm okay with LGBT people attempting to expose and provoke homophobia, so as to shame any political group that harbors it. I'm okay with atheists of Islamic descent doing likewise. Imams are a political group, just like priests, so that's fine.
There is however a far more effective strategy than running a parade : Actual sympathetic gay individuals should go door-to-door, and visit schools, explaining the current issues. Imams like priests lose their power when their younger followers reject the bigotry they teach.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:38 AM on July 23, 2015
There is however a far more effective strategy than running a parade : Actual sympathetic gay individuals should go door-to-door, and visit schools, explaining the current issues. Imams like priests lose their power when their younger followers reject the bigotry they teach.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:38 AM on July 23, 2015
So is this just going to be a bunch of right-wing operatives wearing rented Village People outfits
It's fun to stay at the NMKY!
Yeah, yeah, I know, this is Finnish. But, they're like, all the same up there anyway, right? Everybody knows that.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:39 AM on July 23, 2015
It's fun to stay at the NMKY!
Yeah, yeah, I know, this is Finnish. But, they're like, all the same up there anyway, right? Everybody knows that.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:39 AM on July 23, 2015
But the question of moral consistency is real.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood." - Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance
posted by Etrigan at 5:46 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood." - Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance
posted by Etrigan at 5:46 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
That disparity is perplexing.
I think it's just run-of-the-mill European fascistic ethnic nationalism just with a slightly more internally progressive agenda. Particular executions of fascism based around ethnic nationalism included strict gender roles, homophobia and so on, but those things aren't necessarily inherent to it. The only inherent part is that your fellow ethnic countrymen are Good, and everyone else in your country is Bad.
posted by griphus at 5:46 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think it's just run-of-the-mill European fascistic ethnic nationalism just with a slightly more internally progressive agenda. Particular executions of fascism based around ethnic nationalism included strict gender roles, homophobia and so on, but those things aren't necessarily inherent to it. The only inherent part is that your fellow ethnic countrymen are Good, and everyone else in your country is Bad.
posted by griphus at 5:46 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Many European countries are known for their progressive social programs and some for their equality among genders, but many of these same ones are also blatantly xenophobic and nationalistic, if not outright racist to residents of color.
On the other hand, making sweeping negative statements about entire continents may not be the best way to reduce the amount of xenophobia in the world.
posted by Ned G at 5:47 AM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
On the other hand, making sweeping negative statements about entire continents may not be the best way to reduce the amount of xenophobia in the world.
posted by Ned G at 5:47 AM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Still it's kind of a half-step forward if you can get any quasi-fascist party supporting any of the people that Hitler worked to exterminate.
You think these guys actually support LGBT folks? Their entire pitch is that they're more socially conservative than the conservatives (whether classic or christian), and even if you ignore all the high-ranking party representatives who's been ranting in public about how homosexuality is equal to pedophilia/bestiality and that feminists should be put in labor camps and that gay marriage is an affront to pretty much everything, their party program and parliament voting record isn't exactly LGBT friendly. Last year, 100% of their MPs voted for mandatory sterilization of trans persons, as one example.
posted by effbot at 5:50 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
You think these guys actually support LGBT folks? Their entire pitch is that they're more socially conservative than the conservatives (whether classic or christian), and even if you ignore all the high-ranking party representatives who's been ranting in public about how homosexuality is equal to pedophilia/bestiality and that feminists should be put in labor camps and that gay marriage is an affront to pretty much everything, their party program and parliament voting record isn't exactly LGBT friendly. Last year, 100% of their MPs voted for mandatory sterilization of trans persons, as one example.
posted by effbot at 5:50 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'd be fine with a parade that was organized by queer members of those communities. I am not fine with a parade that is organized by people who hate queer members of the communities just as much as they hate the queer people's parents, siblings, children, neighbors and friends. This is not a parade in support of queer Muslims. It's a parade of people who hate Muslims (and people who might be perceived to be Muslim), including the queer ones.
And I mean, the agenda here is to stop immigration, which presumably would also stop the immigration of queer people and secular people, who in some instances are the folks who have the most incentive to move to a place like Sweden.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:50 AM on July 23, 2015 [17 favorites]
And I mean, the agenda here is to stop immigration, which presumably would also stop the immigration of queer people and secular people, who in some instances are the folks who have the most incentive to move to a place like Sweden.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:50 AM on July 23, 2015 [17 favorites]
This is just a more blatant example of something which I feel has been happening increasingly over the last 10 or 20 years in western countries: framing acceptance of lgbtq people as an inherently white & western value, which is then used to justify imperialism and forms of state and other violence against marginalised groups, mainly racialised people but also working class people.
What makes me particularly suspicious (and angry) is the cultural & societal amnesia. I see lots of people: politicians and people in powerful PR positions or even just co-workers now talking about love and tolerance without acknowledging that 5 or 10 or 20 years ago they were acting in ways that made life unsafe for lgbt people (and of course in other ways still are). Homophobia and transphobia in western culture is framed as the result of a few hateful individuals, (who are probably secretly gay themselves). I see very little real engagement with the history of lgbt struggles (and of course the key role of poc in the struggle for lgbt rights) and systematic homophobia and transphobia that existed. Its like vast swathes of history are just being erased. And of course, hardly any engagement with homophobia and transphobia as western exports. I don't think any of this is just an accident or oversight.
As a white queer person I am deeply angry about the ways the fight for lgbt rights has been co-opted for forms of state violence. I think its deeply important to do the work of decoupling lgbtq struggles from colonialism. A key way especially for other white people to do this is to remember our own history, especially the violence of it which still doesn't feel adequately acknowledged. I've found Dark matter rage a good resource for this, I'm sure there are plenty of others I can't think of right now.
posted by ninjablob at 5:52 AM on July 23, 2015 [32 favorites]
What makes me particularly suspicious (and angry) is the cultural & societal amnesia. I see lots of people: politicians and people in powerful PR positions or even just co-workers now talking about love and tolerance without acknowledging that 5 or 10 or 20 years ago they were acting in ways that made life unsafe for lgbt people (and of course in other ways still are). Homophobia and transphobia in western culture is framed as the result of a few hateful individuals, (who are probably secretly gay themselves). I see very little real engagement with the history of lgbt struggles (and of course the key role of poc in the struggle for lgbt rights) and systematic homophobia and transphobia that existed. Its like vast swathes of history are just being erased. And of course, hardly any engagement with homophobia and transphobia as western exports. I don't think any of this is just an accident or oversight.
As a white queer person I am deeply angry about the ways the fight for lgbt rights has been co-opted for forms of state violence. I think its deeply important to do the work of decoupling lgbtq struggles from colonialism. A key way especially for other white people to do this is to remember our own history, especially the violence of it which still doesn't feel adequately acknowledged. I've found Dark matter rage a good resource for this, I'm sure there are plenty of others I can't think of right now.
posted by ninjablob at 5:52 AM on July 23, 2015 [32 favorites]
Just because you're LGBT doesn't make you impervious to Islamophobia.
That's true, but at the same time I can't see LGBT folks lining up to be part of a shitty right-wing prank like this. Maybe the sociopolitical topology is different in Sweden, but isn't the political right pretty much an enemy of LGBT rights everywhere? Log Cabin Republicans being the exception that proves the rule, I don't see a meaningful alliance being made here. Muslim immigrants might be hostile to gays, but at the same time they aren't the ones trying to legislate LGBT people out of existence.
posted by Strange Interlude at 5:54 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's true, but at the same time I can't see LGBT folks lining up to be part of a shitty right-wing prank like this. Maybe the sociopolitical topology is different in Sweden, but isn't the political right pretty much an enemy of LGBT rights everywhere? Log Cabin Republicans being the exception that proves the rule, I don't see a meaningful alliance being made here. Muslim immigrants might be hostile to gays, but at the same time they aren't the ones trying to legislate LGBT people out of existence.
posted by Strange Interlude at 5:54 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
The whole gotcha game being played is stupid and puerile, and I'm not sure where the whole finger-pointing at people who support social justice is coming from. We have a bunch of anti-LGBT white supremacists blatantly appropriating LGBT culture and activism in an attempt to build support for taking away the rights of an outgroup already under attack. I mean, if you want to get into a thought experiment, then imagine if the SD was dressing up in yarmulkes, wigs with sidelocks, and fake noses and parading through those same neighborhoods. I doubt that the indifference to what is being appropriated, who it's being appropriated from, and who's doing the appropriating would be similar at all.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:59 AM on July 23, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 5:59 AM on July 23, 2015 [16 favorites]
What if it was X instead of Y is often a fallacy in these sorts of discussions but I think ZF just knocked it out of the park with that one.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:03 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 6:03 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Lots of the SD people are probably gay. Maybe this will allow them to express themselves while maintaining plausible deniability. I think the gay movement in Sweden should say "Hey guys, it's great that you want to express your support for gay rights. We're not going to march with you, because you're horribly racist, but we hope this means your platform will explicitly address homophobia."
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:04 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:04 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think the gay movement in Sweden should
I'd rather listen to what LGBT people in Sweden have to say about how this affects both their work and their actual Muslim community outreach, which at this point seems more like "this is messing up everything we've spent years working on" as opposed to "maybe this time the homophobic racists will change their tune."
posted by zombieflanders at 6:11 AM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'd rather listen to what LGBT people in Sweden have to say about how this affects both their work and their actual Muslim community outreach, which at this point seems more like "this is messing up everything we've spent years working on" as opposed to "maybe this time the homophobic racists will change their tune."
posted by zombieflanders at 6:11 AM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
I can't believe right-wingers would try to provoke right-wingers into attacking gay people. why would they do this???
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 6:17 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 6:17 AM on July 23, 2015
Etrigan, if you're saying that moral consistency doesn't matter, you should probably say it yourself; as is, you're just appealing to authority.
posted by LogicalDash at 6:23 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by LogicalDash at 6:23 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's true, but at the same time I can't see LGBT folks lining up to be part of a shitty right-wing prank like this.
Islamophobic, right-wing LGBT people is not unheard of.
posted by sukeban at 6:34 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Islamophobic, right-wing LGBT people is not unheard of.
posted by sukeban at 6:34 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, in Europe there is no contradiction between being openly gay and also being openly racist and xenophobic (and in America too, for that matter).
I think it's a kind of naive American attitude to assume that all of our "leftist" causes are internally consistent and could never, ever be used against each other.
posted by Avenger at 6:37 AM on July 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
I think it's a kind of naive American attitude to assume that all of our "leftist" causes are internally consistent and could never, ever be used against each other.
posted by Avenger at 6:37 AM on July 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
I consider the right to safely experience and express one's sexuality superior to the right of one's religion. In this case, I have to side with the racist assholes.
posted by chimaera at 6:40 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by chimaera at 6:40 AM on July 23, 2015
How exactly are the racist assholes helping anyone safely experience and express their sexuality?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:42 AM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:42 AM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm going to side with diversity and letting people decide their own religion/sexuality/gender presentation, be their own race, do whatever private things they like, anything, as long as they aren't inflicting it on others.
posted by Zalzidrax at 6:44 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by Zalzidrax at 6:44 AM on July 23, 2015
There is however a far more effective strategy than running a parade : Actual sympathetic gay individuals should go door-to-door, and visit schools, explaining the current issues. Imams like priests lose their power when their younger followers reject the bigotry they teach.
....because what queer people really need to do more of is door-to-door prosletyzing? I mean, it's not like people are overflowing with understanding and love for the Mormons here. Or like gay people have been targeted and attacked on the belief that they're trying to "convert" youth to the queer side in the past, or under the aegis of "protecting the children." Or that sending individual queer people going door to door in an unfriendly neighborhood is a recipe for success.
I just. Do you hear yourself?
posted by sciatrix at 6:45 AM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
....because what queer people really need to do more of is door-to-door prosletyzing? I mean, it's not like people are overflowing with understanding and love for the Mormons here. Or like gay people have been targeted and attacked on the belief that they're trying to "convert" youth to the queer side in the past, or under the aegis of "protecting the children." Or that sending individual queer people going door to door in an unfriendly neighborhood is a recipe for success.
I just. Do you hear yourself?
posted by sciatrix at 6:45 AM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
Etrigan, if you're saying that moral consistency doesn't matter, you should probably say it yourself; as is, you're just appealing to authority.
A quote is not automatically an appeal to authority. I'm just using someone else's words to say it better than I could.
But yes, since you sort of asked: moral consistency doesn't matter, and that's the whole point of this trollery. Sjunnesson and the SDs are trying to present this as "If you really believe in LGBT rights, then you have to support our attempts to rile up the Muslims!" But we don't. We can just ignore them, or point out that they are trolling.
posted by Etrigan at 6:45 AM on July 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
A quote is not automatically an appeal to authority. I'm just using someone else's words to say it better than I could.
But yes, since you sort of asked: moral consistency doesn't matter, and that's the whole point of this trollery. Sjunnesson and the SDs are trying to present this as "If you really believe in LGBT rights, then you have to support our attempts to rile up the Muslims!" But we don't. We can just ignore them, or point out that they are trolling.
posted by Etrigan at 6:45 AM on July 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
Mod note: Fixed typo in FPP.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 6:51 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 6:51 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sjunnesson and the SDs are trying to present this as "If you really believe in LGBT rights, then you have to support our attempts to rile up the Muslims!" But we don't. We can just ignore them, or point out that they are trolling.
You could almost make the math work if the Muslim community, as a political body, was somehow curtailing the rights of LGBT Swedes. But a) they aren't b) LGBT people in Sweden have pretty much all the rights, and had them before most other countries. With the exception of xenophobia (which Sweden is also very good at) for fun, there's no compelling reason to participate in this. There's no rights at stake.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:08 AM on July 23, 2015
You could almost make the math work if the Muslim community, as a political body, was somehow curtailing the rights of LGBT Swedes. But a) they aren't b) LGBT people in Sweden have pretty much all the rights, and had them before most other countries. With the exception of xenophobia (which Sweden is also very good at) for fun, there's no compelling reason to participate in this. There's no rights at stake.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:08 AM on July 23, 2015
"If you really believe in LGBT rights, then you have to support our attempts to rile up the Muslims against LGBT people"
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:17 AM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:17 AM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
The tactics are bad and divisive. The group undertaking them is reprehensible. But the question of moral consistency is real. Those working against prejudice have left themselves open wide to this stunt. There was a very famous example of Ken Livingstone, then Mayor of London, sharing a platform with al-Qaradawi, a notorious anti-semite, homophobe, and misogynist. Peter Tatchell has led a campaign against such hypocrisy for some years now but, predictably, he's been shouted down.
People in an oppressed group don't get a free pass on oppressing others, but sometimes it seems like it's easier to look the other way than make hard moral choices about our allies.
That's... pretty UK-specific for a comment on something that's happening in Sweden.
posted by Dysk at 7:18 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
People in an oppressed group don't get a free pass on oppressing others, but sometimes it seems like it's easier to look the other way than make hard moral choices about our allies.
That's... pretty UK-specific for a comment on something that's happening in Sweden.
posted by Dysk at 7:18 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Considering this whole thing is clearly a sham
It's more than a sham. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham!
posted by octobersurprise at 7:20 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's more than a sham. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham!
posted by octobersurprise at 7:20 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
The us-vs-them design of this event is so stupid. Some LGBT people are far right anti-immigration jerks too. A lot of Muslims, particularly ones living in Europe, are not anti-gay.
posted by Nelson at 7:37 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 7:37 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I wish I could read the version of this thread where the only comments are those written by Muslims, queers, and Swedes (and those who overlap those categories).
posted by latkes at 7:40 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by latkes at 7:40 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
yo Mr. Encyclopedia, you know, I just heard on PRI's The World a story about how difficult it was to grow up as a lesbian woman in Saudi Arabia. having to wait a year or more just to hear the first name of someone you've been talking to online all that time signifies a more cloistered lifestyle than I can even imagine
that said, as a minority who grew up in a predominantly white area in the US, I also understand what it's like to experience blatant but unintended ignorance. it sucks, it tells you that you're different, and it either forces you to tunnel even more into your cultural in-group or it forces a painful rejection of your family, your larger social network, and all the values that you've known your entire life. you start doing this thing where you adopt the strongest, worst rhetoric about who you used to be in the hopes that you'll finally persuade all of these white people that you're just as racist as they are, that you're one of them and not an Other
the values that I grew up with, they weren't all great. there was a lot of emotional and physical abuse relative to a more Western conceptions of parenting, there wasn't a lot of support for me as an individual, and there was just a lot of racism against other minorities. these are problematic, for sure, and it took me a long time to get over it and to understand why it happens. but I think the important thing to me was that I realized this on my own. it wasn't proselytized to me by someone else and it especially wasn't packaged with this idea that my culture was inherently wrong, that my family and my friends were inherently, morally, principally wrong for believing what they did. because they're not. it's what they grew up with. it's what their parents raised them to believe and it's what afforded them power within their communities and groups when they were still struggling to figure the world out.
denying them that is sort of to deny them their whole experience of life, isn't it? the parade isn't reaching out to LGBTQ youth in Muslim communities through isolated individual and group level interactions where something like this would actually matter. the parade is, instead, a parade against a minority community because they do not accord to dominant Swedish values. it reminds me of all the people who tried to convince me that it was my ethnicity that was central to the abuse I faced growing up, not my parents depression and anxiety and their sense of social isolation.
so, anyway, I dunno what you mean by determining where MetaFilter 'cleaves to' w/r/t their politics but I don't think turning this into some wedge issue is very helpful for anyone. this is a delicate issue that could use a lot more mindfulness and less generalizations. there are a lot of people out there who are really hurting and struggling to figure out how they can possibly fit into a society that tells them that they were born the wrong shape and size. I think that's true of all minority populations, LGBTQ, Muslim-Swedes, and otherwise
posted by runt at 8:10 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
that said, as a minority who grew up in a predominantly white area in the US, I also understand what it's like to experience blatant but unintended ignorance. it sucks, it tells you that you're different, and it either forces you to tunnel even more into your cultural in-group or it forces a painful rejection of your family, your larger social network, and all the values that you've known your entire life. you start doing this thing where you adopt the strongest, worst rhetoric about who you used to be in the hopes that you'll finally persuade all of these white people that you're just as racist as they are, that you're one of them and not an Other
the values that I grew up with, they weren't all great. there was a lot of emotional and physical abuse relative to a more Western conceptions of parenting, there wasn't a lot of support for me as an individual, and there was just a lot of racism against other minorities. these are problematic, for sure, and it took me a long time to get over it and to understand why it happens. but I think the important thing to me was that I realized this on my own. it wasn't proselytized to me by someone else and it especially wasn't packaged with this idea that my culture was inherently wrong, that my family and my friends were inherently, morally, principally wrong for believing what they did. because they're not. it's what they grew up with. it's what their parents raised them to believe and it's what afforded them power within their communities and groups when they were still struggling to figure the world out.
denying them that is sort of to deny them their whole experience of life, isn't it? the parade isn't reaching out to LGBTQ youth in Muslim communities through isolated individual and group level interactions where something like this would actually matter. the parade is, instead, a parade against a minority community because they do not accord to dominant Swedish values. it reminds me of all the people who tried to convince me that it was my ethnicity that was central to the abuse I faced growing up, not my parents depression and anxiety and their sense of social isolation.
so, anyway, I dunno what you mean by determining where MetaFilter 'cleaves to' w/r/t their politics but I don't think turning this into some wedge issue is very helpful for anyone. this is a delicate issue that could use a lot more mindfulness and less generalizations. there are a lot of people out there who are really hurting and struggling to figure out how they can possibly fit into a society that tells them that they were born the wrong shape and size. I think that's true of all minority populations, LGBTQ, Muslim-Swedes, and otherwise
posted by runt at 8:10 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
SDs are trying to present this as "If you really believe in LGBT rights, then you have to support our attempts to rile up the Muslims!" But we don't.
This is true, and has nothing to do with moral consistency that I can tell. The morally consistent way to support LGBT in Muslim areas, in the actual spirit of inclusiveness, would involve working out the least offensive way to do it. You'd probably want to start with purely informational efforts, in classrooms and maybe TV spots.
Your quote seems to be talking about a different kind of consistency anyway: it is also true that you don't have to consistently devote yourself to one thing all your life to be a good person.
posted by LogicalDash at 8:10 AM on July 23, 2015
This is true, and has nothing to do with moral consistency that I can tell. The morally consistent way to support LGBT in Muslim areas, in the actual spirit of inclusiveness, would involve working out the least offensive way to do it. You'd probably want to start with purely informational efforts, in classrooms and maybe TV spots.
Your quote seems to be talking about a different kind of consistency anyway: it is also true that you don't have to consistently devote yourself to one thing all your life to be a good person.
posted by LogicalDash at 8:10 AM on July 23, 2015
The morally consistent way to support LGBT in Muslim areas, in the actual spirit of inclusiveness, would involve working out the least offensive way to do it. You'd probably want to start with purely informational efforts, in classrooms and maybe TV spots.
How is that morally consistent with Pride parades? Do you think that mainstream society wasn't offended by them, historically?
posted by Etrigan at 8:14 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
How is that morally consistent with Pride parades? Do you think that mainstream society wasn't offended by them, historically?
posted by Etrigan at 8:14 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Actually, the best way to support LGBT people in Muslim areas is to ask LGBT Muslims from those communities what is most helpful. Well meaning white LGBT folk aren't much less likely do the wrong thing and inadvertently make stuff worse for LGBT Muslims than anyone else. Talk to the people who are being most directly affected and ask: "Hey, what do you think would work?" That's the crucial difference between what is happening here and what happened with early Prides.
posted by sciatrix at 8:17 AM on July 23, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 8:17 AM on July 23, 2015 [22 favorites]
Jesus, it's like none of you ever heard of intersectionality.
posted by sciatrix at 8:18 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 8:18 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Considering this whole thing is clearly a sham, that brings up another question: Who's actually going to march in this so-called pride parade? Presumably, actual LGBT folk aren't going to have anything to do with this.
That presumption would make it hard to reckon with someone like Pym Fortuyn, the openly-gay, anti-immigrant and Islamaphoic Dutch politician assassinated during the Dutch 2002 general election campaign.
Not to mention Ernst Rohm.
posted by layceepee at 8:18 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
That presumption would make it hard to reckon with someone like Pym Fortuyn, the openly-gay, anti-immigrant and Islamaphoic Dutch politician assassinated during the Dutch 2002 general election campaign.
Not to mention Ernst Rohm.
posted by layceepee at 8:18 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's... pretty UK-specific for a comment on something that's happening in Sweden.
But the issues raised apply not just Sweden, or even the UK, for that matter. As to this case, it had a parallel of a few years ago in Denmark, with similar agonizing. (Long link, well worth the read.)
🎶 "Which side are you on, boys, which side are you on?" 🎶
posted by IndigoJones at 8:19 AM on July 23, 2015
But the issues raised apply not just Sweden, or even the UK, for that matter. As to this case, it had a parallel of a few years ago in Denmark, with similar agonizing. (Long link, well worth the read.)
🎶 "Which side are you on, boys, which side are you on?" 🎶
posted by IndigoJones at 8:19 AM on July 23, 2015
While there is absolutely great value in listening to, making room for, and amplifying the voices of those directly affected by this: queer people in Sweden, immigrants in Sweden, muslims in Sweden, I see no value at all in not discussing the subject at all in the absence of those voices.
I also think it is counterproductive to dismiss rather carefully worded comments about the region as "making sweeping negative statements about entire continents." It is certainly true that many western European countries, particularly the Nordic countries, are seen as positive examples of progressive society. And it is also true that many western European countries, including the Nordic countries, have a problem with anti-immigration sentiment. As a resident of a Nordic country, I think this is a completely fair discrepancy to point out. It does not mean the majority of people are racist or xenophobic, but enough are ignorant or scared or sheltered to let those who are wield more power than they should.
There are genuinely difficult issues here. How do you provide support for LGBT youth in immigrant communities which hold to repressive cultural norms, without either ignoring the individual or alienating the community? A spiteful parade is not the answer, I think we all agree, but what is the answer? This is an issue we have to face across the developed world. How do you welcome diverse populations into a culture that is already fighting within itself for progressive values, without turning that fight against the newcomers and also without ignoring oppression within their cultures?
posted by Nothing at 8:56 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I also think it is counterproductive to dismiss rather carefully worded comments about the region as "making sweeping negative statements about entire continents." It is certainly true that many western European countries, particularly the Nordic countries, are seen as positive examples of progressive society. And it is also true that many western European countries, including the Nordic countries, have a problem with anti-immigration sentiment. As a resident of a Nordic country, I think this is a completely fair discrepancy to point out. It does not mean the majority of people are racist or xenophobic, but enough are ignorant or scared or sheltered to let those who are wield more power than they should.
There are genuinely difficult issues here. How do you provide support for LGBT youth in immigrant communities which hold to repressive cultural norms, without either ignoring the individual or alienating the community? A spiteful parade is not the answer, I think we all agree, but what is the answer? This is an issue we have to face across the developed world. How do you welcome diverse populations into a culture that is already fighting within itself for progressive values, without turning that fight against the newcomers and also without ignoring oppression within their cultures?
posted by Nothing at 8:56 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
There are genuinely difficult issues here. How do you provide support for LGBT youth in immigrant communities which hold to repressive cultural norms, without either ignoring the individual or alienating the community? A spiteful parade is not the answer, I think we all agree, but what is the answer?
I don't know, because I'm a white queer lady, not a Muslim immigrant who is LGBT. My experiences are not going to be the same as that of these youth, and I have at best educated guesses as a result of my own biased experiences as to what those experiences might be. The only way we're going to figure out the correct answer to that question is to go find people who actually have experience being Muslim and LGBT and go ask them what sucks worst and what would be useful. Which is a perspective notably absent from this thread in the rush to ask whether we might all be better served by going door to door and asking whether or not we've all heard the news of Gaysus and Muhomoed! It's even absent from the goddamn FPP!
I mean, it's not like you can't find queer Muslims writing about being queer and Muslim on the internet or anything. Christ almighty.
posted by sciatrix at 9:13 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't know, because I'm a white queer lady, not a Muslim immigrant who is LGBT. My experiences are not going to be the same as that of these youth, and I have at best educated guesses as a result of my own biased experiences as to what those experiences might be. The only way we're going to figure out the correct answer to that question is to go find people who actually have experience being Muslim and LGBT and go ask them what sucks worst and what would be useful. Which is a perspective notably absent from this thread in the rush to ask whether we might all be better served by going door to door and asking whether or not we've all heard the news of Gaysus and Muhomoed! It's even absent from the goddamn FPP!
I mean, it's not like you can't find queer Muslims writing about being queer and Muslim on the internet or anything. Christ almighty.
posted by sciatrix at 9:13 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
There are genuinely difficult issues here. How do you provide support for LGBT youth in immigrant communities which hold to repressive cultural norms, without either ignoring the individual or alienating the community?That may be an interesting question, but it's not a question that is raised by this incident, because the people holding this parade are not interested in supporting LGBT youth in immigrant communities. I don't think they're particularly interested in supporting LGBT people outside of immigrant communities, either. It's hard to make heads or tails of the google translated article by Jan Sjunnesson, but it sounds like he's saying that the queer people he supports are the ones who are silenced by "leftist" queers because they support the heterosexual nuclear family, oppose same-sex marriage and adoption rights, and don't think that people should get asylum for being persecuted for their sexual orientation. In other words, the queer people he likes are the ones who oppose equality for queer people. So yeah, this is just about ugly, evil people co-opting the language of queer liberation for ugly, evil ends. There is no other story here.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:18 AM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
this is just about ugly, evil people co-opting the language of queer liberation for ugly, evil ends. There is no other story here.
And what's frustrating to me about reading the comments here is that, without the context of extensive knowledge of Sweden, Muslim immigrants in Sweden, and queer rights activism in Sweden, a lot of people in this thread are taking this right wing hate group (?) at their word, which appears to be completely disingenuous. Hence my wish that people (like me) who have little knowledge of this be mindful about how strong an argument we make here, and my fantasy that people who do have real context for this would speak up more here.
posted by latkes at 9:28 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
And what's frustrating to me about reading the comments here is that, without the context of extensive knowledge of Sweden, Muslim immigrants in Sweden, and queer rights activism in Sweden, a lot of people in this thread are taking this right wing hate group (?) at their word, which appears to be completely disingenuous. Hence my wish that people (like me) who have little knowledge of this be mindful about how strong an argument we make here, and my fantasy that people who do have real context for this would speak up more here.
posted by latkes at 9:28 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Imams are a political group, just like priests
This statement does not make sense.
posted by zarq at 9:50 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
This statement does not make sense.
posted by zarq at 9:50 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
How do you provide support for LGBT youth in immigrant communities which hold to repressive cultural norms, without either ignoring the individual or alienating the community? A spiteful parade is not the answer, I think we all agree, but what is the answer?
You don't, and the "spiteful parade" is obviously not intended as an "answer" but a provocation.
This is a pretty deft political maneuver, whatever you may think of those who devised it. It not only pits marginalized people against one another, it dares those who think of themselves as inclusive to suggest that the cultural sensibilities of Muslims in Sweden ought to be soft-pedaled - something those same "inclusive" folks refuse do even consider when we're talking about, say, Christians.
Divide and conquer, I suppose they're thinking.
posted by kgasmart at 10:06 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
You don't, and the "spiteful parade" is obviously not intended as an "answer" but a provocation.
This is a pretty deft political maneuver, whatever you may think of those who devised it. It not only pits marginalized people against one another, it dares those who think of themselves as inclusive to suggest that the cultural sensibilities of Muslims in Sweden ought to be soft-pedaled - something those same "inclusive" folks refuse do even consider when we're talking about, say, Christians.
Divide and conquer, I suppose they're thinking.
posted by kgasmart at 10:06 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm sure few of the SD members are pro-LGBT rights, and I doubt many LGBT people are involved in this march. I think what the SD is trying to call attention to is their view that Muslim immigrants do not share the sexual tolerance of most Europeans, and by extension might not share other cherished ideals.
This is not strictly imagined:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
Maybe Swedish people think it's OK to admit immigrants from countries who, compared to most people born in Sweden, reject sexual toleration. Perhaps they think (as I do) that those more illiberal attitudes are likely to fade, and calling it out is unlikely to help. Or maybe they don't think that's OK. The SD is exploiting the fact that this question is simply ignored—especially by the left, which often presumes (mandates?) solidarity of everyone who isn't straight white protestant and male against everyone who is.
Continuing to ignore this tension is likely to play into the hands of radical right groups. I sense this is happening elsewhere in Europe too.
posted by andrewpcone at 10:09 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is not strictly imagined:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
Maybe Swedish people think it's OK to admit immigrants from countries who, compared to most people born in Sweden, reject sexual toleration. Perhaps they think (as I do) that those more illiberal attitudes are likely to fade, and calling it out is unlikely to help. Or maybe they don't think that's OK. The SD is exploiting the fact that this question is simply ignored—especially by the left, which often presumes (mandates?) solidarity of everyone who isn't straight white protestant and male against everyone who is.
Continuing to ignore this tension is likely to play into the hands of radical right groups. I sense this is happening elsewhere in Europe too.
posted by andrewpcone at 10:09 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this is absolutely out of the "make the lefties fight amongst themselves, GOTCHA" playbook.
I look forward to seeing which side Metafilter cleaves to.
So's this.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:14 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
I look forward to seeing which side Metafilter cleaves to.
So's this.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:14 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Sciatrix and Kutsuwamushi, you shook up my presumptuous thinking and my brain became a little better. Thank you!
posted by Drexen at 10:17 AM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Drexen at 10:17 AM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
But the question of moral consistency is real.
That's where concepts like the Buddhist "skillful means" come in handy, providing flexibility to weigh the costs of moral purity against the practical consequences and the morality of those more immediate outcomes. There's no easy formula for doing that level of moral reasoning, but there are existing conceptual frames and modes of thought for grappling with them that can be useful. Personally, it doesn't seem like it could be very empowering for any political group to knowingly let their identity be used as a political tool in service to a secondary cause that might not be aligned with their own for the right reasons. The kinds of political operators who make cynically expedient and calculated political moves like this are also the kind who will turn on a former tactical ally ruthlessly the instant there's something political to be gained from it, or even just to create more chaos to buy themselves opportunity to look for further advantages in the discord.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:00 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's where concepts like the Buddhist "skillful means" come in handy, providing flexibility to weigh the costs of moral purity against the practical consequences and the morality of those more immediate outcomes. There's no easy formula for doing that level of moral reasoning, but there are existing conceptual frames and modes of thought for grappling with them that can be useful. Personally, it doesn't seem like it could be very empowering for any political group to knowingly let their identity be used as a political tool in service to a secondary cause that might not be aligned with their own for the right reasons. The kinds of political operators who make cynically expedient and calculated political moves like this are also the kind who will turn on a former tactical ally ruthlessly the instant there's something political to be gained from it, or even just to create more chaos to buy themselves opportunity to look for further advantages in the discord.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:00 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
in the rush to ask whether we might all be better served by going door to door
Just wanted to point out really quickly that questions of intersectionality aside, the most prominent study claiming to show that short (20m) conversations with LGBT canvassers actually worked to change minds about gay marriage was completely fraudulent and has been retracted (previously).
posted by en forme de poire at 11:03 AM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Just wanted to point out really quickly that questions of intersectionality aside, the most prominent study claiming to show that short (20m) conversations with LGBT canvassers actually worked to change minds about gay marriage was completely fraudulent and has been retracted (previously).
posted by en forme de poire at 11:03 AM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
I would not assume that at least a portion of the people marching in this parade are not gay themselves. The French Front National party apparently had support from 1/4 of the gay population in France this year, mostly due to backlash from hate crimes against gay people, it seems. I think it would be weirder to presume that all gay people have exactly the same politics, than to think that some of them are angry that they feel the culture is changing in Europe to not condemn violence against them.
From the article I linked:
"By contrast, Marine has worked hard to expand the FN’s membership beyond obvious bigots, racists and skinheads. She has publicly condemned anti-Semitism and insists that, far from being racist, her party is the only one that defends secularity and democracy against Islamisation. A key part of this strategy is using the Islamist threat to court the sort of people that the far right has traditionally persecuted. It’s working. In the 2012 presidential elections, Le Pen won 13.5 per cent of the Jewish vote. A surprising enough statistic, but her appeal to gay activists has created even more waves. Just before Christmas, her deputy Florian Philippot was outed as gay by Closer: the same magazine that exposed Hollande’s affair with Julie Gayet. Around the same time, Le Pen appointed a new adviser: Sébastien Chenu, one of the founders of the activist organisation GayLib. FN traditionalists complained loudly that their party was being taken over by a gay cabal."
posted by permiechickie at 12:04 PM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
From the article I linked:
"By contrast, Marine has worked hard to expand the FN’s membership beyond obvious bigots, racists and skinheads. She has publicly condemned anti-Semitism and insists that, far from being racist, her party is the only one that defends secularity and democracy against Islamisation. A key part of this strategy is using the Islamist threat to court the sort of people that the far right has traditionally persecuted. It’s working. In the 2012 presidential elections, Le Pen won 13.5 per cent of the Jewish vote. A surprising enough statistic, but her appeal to gay activists has created even more waves. Just before Christmas, her deputy Florian Philippot was outed as gay by Closer: the same magazine that exposed Hollande’s affair with Julie Gayet. Around the same time, Le Pen appointed a new adviser: Sébastien Chenu, one of the founders of the activist organisation GayLib. FN traditionalists complained loudly that their party was being taken over by a gay cabal."
posted by permiechickie at 12:04 PM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
if not outright racist to residents of color
There's a parallel (and afaict much larger) social media storm going on in Sweden after rapper Adam Tensta walked out of an interview with Sweden's largest commercial TV channel a week ago after asking the interviewers why their employer, who supposedly has a zero tolerance policy against racism, thought it was a-ok to hire some random "YouTube personality" best known for ranting on the Internet about how nobody could stop her from calling people niggers and faggots since she wasn't, like, some big city SJW or something. The subsequent pile-on from everything from full-blown racists, via conservative politicians demanding that he should know his place and be grateful, the "I'm not racist, and to prove that I'm now going to call you all racist slurs I know" crowd, the "but you used the n-word in a rap lyric once this is just logic" crowd, on to the "what do you mean, there's no structural racism in Sweden, we're past that stage, think about how you sound" progressives has been one of the more bizarre shitstorms lately... and definitely one of the more racist.
posted by effbot at 12:25 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's a parallel (and afaict much larger) social media storm going on in Sweden after rapper Adam Tensta walked out of an interview with Sweden's largest commercial TV channel a week ago after asking the interviewers why their employer, who supposedly has a zero tolerance policy against racism, thought it was a-ok to hire some random "YouTube personality" best known for ranting on the Internet about how nobody could stop her from calling people niggers and faggots since she wasn't, like, some big city SJW or something. The subsequent pile-on from everything from full-blown racists, via conservative politicians demanding that he should know his place and be grateful, the "I'm not racist, and to prove that I'm now going to call you all racist slurs I know" crowd, the "but you used the n-word in a rap lyric once this is just logic" crowd, on to the "what do you mean, there's no structural racism in Sweden, we're past that stage, think about how you sound" progressives has been one of the more bizarre shitstorms lately... and definitely one of the more racist.
posted by effbot at 12:25 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
So, on the one hand, we've got a politician who died in 2002, a survey done in 2009 that doesn't cover any Nordic countries*, and a single poll of Paris (not France and certainly not Sweden), all of which is somehow supposed to demonstrate that people known to be both homophobic and Islamophobic have significant support from the LGBT community to and deftly playing those stupid leftist squishes with their stupid social justice advocacy against each other. On the other hand, we've got the leading LGBT group in Sweden, who have been working on immigration issues and increasing acceptance of LGBT people in communities that are otherwise unfriendly, saying that this is less a Pride march and more straight-up bullshit. Which, they point out, is organized by people that called Muslims "satanic" and "pedophiles" because that's what they believe is equivalent to homosexuality. It looks like buzzes are totally harshed for those looking to sneer over a good old-fashioned circular firing squad.
* FWIW, in the US, Islam isn't even in the top 5 of the faith groups least tolerant of LGBT people. It's far outstripped by White Evangelical Protestants, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses; below Black and Hispanic Protestants; and tied with other non-White Protestants. Muslims are even more accepting of SSM than libertarians!
posted by zombieflanders at 1:12 PM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
* FWIW, in the US, Islam isn't even in the top 5 of the faith groups least tolerant of LGBT people. It's far outstripped by White Evangelical Protestants, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses; below Black and Hispanic Protestants; and tied with other non-White Protestants. Muslims are even more accepting of SSM than libertarians!
posted by zombieflanders at 1:12 PM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
I really don't see what a survey of different people's attitudes towards same sex marriage in the U.S of America has to do with people's attitudes regarding LGBT folks in Sweden, but I agree that this march is pretty darn false flag given...what this political party is all about in general.
posted by oceanjesse at 6:08 PM on July 23, 2015
posted by oceanjesse at 6:08 PM on July 23, 2015
I was wondering if anyone on MeFi saw John Safran's report at the (Islamophobic) Reclaim Australia rally earlier this week.
About half of these Reclaim Australia people are from Catch the Fire Ministry, or their political branch, Rise Up Australia. Out of these maybe a quarter are non-white — Asians, Indians and Africans.
I upload a collage of this very multicultural anti-multicultural rally to my Facebook. Immediately progressives start psychoanalysing. These are brown people who are victims of racist Australia! They want to be accepted by the dominant white supremacy culture and so debase themselves this way.
In my experience, Australian intellectuals — you know, the folks who tell you what’s going on, on Q & A and The Drum — just don’t get religion. How scripture and faith is a way of life. Essentially these non-white people are here because the scriptures tell them Jesus Christ is the last prophet. The message of the Koran is an affront to them, as viscerally offensive as a cartoon of Mohammed is to a Muslim.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:45 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
About half of these Reclaim Australia people are from Catch the Fire Ministry, or their political branch, Rise Up Australia. Out of these maybe a quarter are non-white — Asians, Indians and Africans.
I upload a collage of this very multicultural anti-multicultural rally to my Facebook. Immediately progressives start psychoanalysing. These are brown people who are victims of racist Australia! They want to be accepted by the dominant white supremacy culture and so debase themselves this way.
In my experience, Australian intellectuals — you know, the folks who tell you what’s going on, on Q & A and The Drum — just don’t get religion. How scripture and faith is a way of life. Essentially these non-white people are here because the scriptures tell them Jesus Christ is the last prophet. The message of the Koran is an affront to them, as viscerally offensive as a cartoon of Mohammed is to a Muslim.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:45 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've heard similar arguments a lot by right wingers. A little while ago, some Muslim men were reported harassing gay people in east London.
Some right wing "friends" at the thought this was a hilarious gotcha for me, a gay liberal. But it ignores thing:
Statistically, the people I'm still most at risk of violence from are young, white, straight males, just like the ones telling me I should be afraid of muslims.
posted by axon at 4:33 AM on July 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Some right wing "friends" at the thought this was a hilarious gotcha for me, a gay liberal. But it ignores thing:
Statistically, the people I'm still most at risk of violence from are young, white, straight males, just like the ones telling me I should be afraid of muslims.
posted by axon at 4:33 AM on July 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
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posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 3:59 AM on July 23, 2015 [22 favorites]