Estimated American veteran suicides per day: 22
August 27, 2015 4:35 AM Subscribe
The staggering reality of America's post-9/11 era of perpetual war: For every active duty soldier killed in combat, twenty veterans died by their own hand. This is Daniel Wolfe's story. (This story discusses self-harm, suicide and suicidal ideation. Some readers may find the content disturbing.)
For Veterans
* Veterans Crisis Line mentioned in the article: 1 (800) 273-8255, press 1.
* Additional resources from NAMI, the National Alliance for Mental Illness
For Non-Veterans
* National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1 (800) 273-8255
Previously
* Daniel Somers
* American female military veterans commit suicide at nearly six times the rate of other women and at rates nearly equal to that of male veterans
* Danny Chen: 1, 2
* Data on Veteran Suicides. The rate may be higher than 22 per day.
* Self-harm now takes more lives than war, murder, and natural disasters combined. Why are we killing ourselves, and how can we stop it?
* Moral Injury
* Clay Hunt
For Veterans
* Veterans Crisis Line mentioned in the article: 1 (800) 273-8255, press 1.
* Additional resources from NAMI, the National Alliance for Mental Illness
For Non-Veterans
* National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1 (800) 273-8255
Previously
* Daniel Somers
* American female military veterans commit suicide at nearly six times the rate of other women and at rates nearly equal to that of male veterans
* Danny Chen: 1, 2
* Data on Veteran Suicides. The rate may be higher than 22 per day.
* Self-harm now takes more lives than war, murder, and natural disasters combined. Why are we killing ourselves, and how can we stop it?
* Moral Injury
* Clay Hunt
"And then he was lost." Too many Daniels.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:05 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:05 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
"For every active duty soldier killed in combat, twenty veterans died by their own hand."
Jesus. Thanks zarq. I'm just gonna ponder that unbelievable sentence for a moment....
Of course this could not have been unanticipated.
Strained Army Extends Tours To 15 Months
"a soldier on his third tour who spent 18 months in Iraq would have spent more time in a combat zone than many did during World War II."
"Some 107,000 Army soldiers have been deployed to war three or more times since 2001, or some 20 percent of the active-duty force. More than 50,000 of those currently in uniform have completed four or more combat tours, Army figures indicate."
"The tremendous burden that battle places on soldiers – and the notion that it can push some to their breaking point – has long been one of the fatalistically accepted miseries of war.
During the Civil War, this breaking point was called, alternately, “soldier’s heart” and “exhausted heart.” In World War I, it was “war neurosis,” “gas hysteria,” and “shell shock.” Sigmund Freud had his own theory about the “inner conflict” between a soldier’s “peace ego” and its “parasitic double,” the “war ego.” "
It's the reason why tours of duty were introduced during WW2. Extended deployments away from home and often in combat zones messes people up and makes it hard for them to re-integrate into civilian society. When Bush admininstration relaxed these restrictions and introduced "stop-loss" even a child could have anticipated what the result would have been.
I had no idea, however, that it was this bad.
posted by three blind mice at 5:34 AM on August 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
Jesus. Thanks zarq. I'm just gonna ponder that unbelievable sentence for a moment....
Of course this could not have been unanticipated.
Strained Army Extends Tours To 15 Months
"a soldier on his third tour who spent 18 months in Iraq would have spent more time in a combat zone than many did during World War II."
"Some 107,000 Army soldiers have been deployed to war three or more times since 2001, or some 20 percent of the active-duty force. More than 50,000 of those currently in uniform have completed four or more combat tours, Army figures indicate."
"The tremendous burden that battle places on soldiers – and the notion that it can push some to their breaking point – has long been one of the fatalistically accepted miseries of war.
During the Civil War, this breaking point was called, alternately, “soldier’s heart” and “exhausted heart.” In World War I, it was “war neurosis,” “gas hysteria,” and “shell shock.” Sigmund Freud had his own theory about the “inner conflict” between a soldier’s “peace ego” and its “parasitic double,” the “war ego.” "
It's the reason why tours of duty were introduced during WW2. Extended deployments away from home and often in combat zones messes people up and makes it hard for them to re-integrate into civilian society. When Bush admininstration relaxed these restrictions and introduced "stop-loss" even a child could have anticipated what the result would have been.
I had no idea, however, that it was this bad.
posted by three blind mice at 5:34 AM on August 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
...and Cheney still lives.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:37 AM on August 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 5:37 AM on August 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
Too many puppies are being shot in the dark.
Too many puppies are trained not to bark.
At the sight of blood that must be spilled so that
We may maintain our oil fields.
Too many puppies
Too many puppies are taught to heal.
Too many puppies are trained to kill.
On the command of men wearing money belts that buy
Mistresses sleek animal pelts.
Too many puppies.
too many pupp pupp pupp pupp pupp pupp puppies
Too many puppies with guns in their hands.
Too many puppies in foreign lands.
Are dressed up sharp in suits of green and
Placed upon the war machine.
Too many puppies are just like me.
Too many puppies are afraid to see.
The visions of the past brought to life again,
Too many puppies, too many dead men.
posted by symbioid at 5:52 AM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
Too many puppies are trained not to bark.
At the sight of blood that must be spilled so that
We may maintain our oil fields.
Too many puppies
Too many puppies are taught to heal.
Too many puppies are trained to kill.
On the command of men wearing money belts that buy
Mistresses sleek animal pelts.
Too many puppies.
too many pupp pupp pupp pupp pupp pupp puppies
Too many puppies with guns in their hands.
Too many puppies in foreign lands.
Are dressed up sharp in suits of green and
Placed upon the war machine.
Too many puppies are just like me.
Too many puppies are afraid to see.
The visions of the past brought to life again,
Too many puppies, too many dead men.
posted by symbioid at 5:52 AM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
The point about whether or not well-adjusted people volunteer for wars coupled with society's still willful negligence about all things mental health seems a worthwhile dimension to explore. For as much as we focus on PTSD and brain trauma are we doing so at the expense of good intake evaluations and a systemic approach to mental health during active duty? Given the constraints of the battle field should the armed forces simply be much, much more selective in recruiting - knowing that it's almost impossible to render useful treatment during deployment and seems equally daunting to reach people afterwards? Maybe not worth the investment, I guess, it's easier to "honor" vets than screen and treat recruits.
posted by SoFlo1 at 5:56 AM on August 27, 2015
posted by SoFlo1 at 5:56 AM on August 27, 2015
one way to get these numbers down : perhaps.... start and/or fight less wars
posted by lalochezia at 6:09 AM on August 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 6:09 AM on August 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
I think it's interesting that people who really get behind "sup[porting the troops" seem to also resent spending money on programs that might actually help those men and women when they returned home. It's kind of like the way that many people demand that babies be born but have no interest in providing support for those babies when they are, you know, actual children.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:30 AM on August 27, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:30 AM on August 27, 2015 [19 favorites]
three blind mice: During the Civil War, this breaking point was called, alternately, “soldier’s heart” and “exhausted heart.” In World War I, it was “war neurosis,” “gas hysteria,” and “shell shock.” Sigmund Freud had his own theory about the “inner conflict” between a soldier’s “peace ego” and its “parasitic double,” the “war ego.” "
George Carlin's routine about the language surrounding shell shock gives me goosebumps to this very day.
posted by dr_dank at 6:34 AM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
George Carlin's routine about the language surrounding shell shock gives me goosebumps to this very day.
posted by dr_dank at 6:34 AM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
In WWI, though, there was a huge push to get shell shock recognized by the military and the medical profession as a result of war rather than a result of bad character. WHR Rivers and his colleagues were instrumental in changing the perception of war trauma. For most of the war, at least in the English army, no matter what kind of trauma you had you were just viewed as a weak degenerate with a bad character.
posted by Frowner at 6:42 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:42 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Veteran suicide numbers include everyone who has ever been in the military, regardless of deployments or era. We hear about these cases where it's obvious that PTSD directly attributable to combat is the cause, but there are many more veterans who are suffering from economic stresses (hard to translate being an infantry squad leader into terms a hiring manager can understand), unrecognized non-combat PTSD (sexual assault factors into a huge number of female veteran suicides), being out of the military (as I've said before here, I miss my time in "the box", sometimes achingly so, and I had a pretty good life to return to), and a host of other things that don't add up to this narrative of "Being in the shit... It changes you, man..."
It's really not as simple as "Don't go to war." Failing to recognize that puts every vet in the Crazed Camo-Wearing Gun Nut Finally Snaps category, and we mostly aren't.
posted by Etrigan at 6:48 AM on August 27, 2015 [32 favorites]
It's really not as simple as "Don't go to war." Failing to recognize that puts every vet in the Crazed Camo-Wearing Gun Nut Finally Snaps category, and we mostly aren't.
posted by Etrigan at 6:48 AM on August 27, 2015 [32 favorites]
22 a day? That is absolutely fucking shocking.
posted by rmmcclay at 6:57 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rmmcclay at 6:57 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's really not as simple as "Don't go to war."
But that's part of it. The same way that counseling would help a fraction, better training would help a fraction, better conditons etc etc, reducing deployment and wars would reduce the suicide rate, no?
Veteran suicide numbers include everyone who has ever been in the military, regardless of deployments or era.
In that case, shrink the military to a much more justifiable size and take the money you save by this process, and put people in less suicide-inducing jobs.
posted by lalochezia at 7:01 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
But that's part of it. The same way that counseling would help a fraction, better training would help a fraction, better conditons etc etc, reducing deployment and wars would reduce the suicide rate, no?
Veteran suicide numbers include everyone who has ever been in the military, regardless of deployments or era.
In that case, shrink the military to a much more justifiable size and take the money you save by this process, and put people in less suicide-inducing jobs.
posted by lalochezia at 7:01 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Failing to recognize that puts every vet in the Crazed Camo-Wearing Gun Nut Finally Snaps category, and we mostly aren't.
"Mostly aren't" still leaves a lot who are.
shrink the military to a much more justifiable size
Or massively expand it so that all the burden doesn't fall on the shoulders of a few. To me that's the real crime, that all of the burden of America's wars have been shouldered by a tiny fraction of the population. It's not only unfair, but asking too much from too few is gonna break some. And that seems so obvious that you'd think the military would have planned ahead for it.
posted by three blind mice at 7:18 AM on August 27, 2015
"Mostly aren't" still leaves a lot who are.
shrink the military to a much more justifiable size
Or massively expand it so that all the burden doesn't fall on the shoulders of a few. To me that's the real crime, that all of the burden of America's wars have been shouldered by a tiny fraction of the population. It's not only unfair, but asking too much from too few is gonna break some. And that seems so obvious that you'd think the military would have planned ahead for it.
posted by three blind mice at 7:18 AM on August 27, 2015
the real trick to expanding the military would be finding a way that also incorporates the children of the politicians benefiting from these wars, rather than those too poor/insufficiently Connected to escape it
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:33 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:33 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
If we are gonna do war, then we must have a universal, gender-blind draft NOW. No exceptions. No string-pulling. Everyone has to serve somehow and take the same risks as far as possible.
posted by jfwlucy at 7:36 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jfwlucy at 7:36 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've seen some really vile shit coming from soldiers of all people basically blaming their "comrades" for being weak and such. It's disgusting.
I have a good idea that I can tell what party they vote for if I hear that phrase come from their mouth.
posted by symbioid at 7:49 AM on August 27, 2015
I have a good idea that I can tell what party they vote for if I hear that phrase come from their mouth.
posted by symbioid at 7:49 AM on August 27, 2015
How much of this is a denominator issue rather than a numerator issue. The changing nature of combat and improvement in battlefield medicine resulted in an extremely low (by historical standards) combat death rates in Iraq and Afghanistan. According to Wikipedia, there have been about 5,000 combat deaths there spread out over 14 years. There were 50,000 (10x) the number of combat deaths in each of World War I and Vietnam, in less than two years (WWI) and (for the most part) about five years (1966-1971) for Vietnam. There were 300,000 (60x) in the 3.5 years of World War II.
posted by MattD at 7:51 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by MattD at 7:51 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
The rate of veteran suicides could qualify as the number-one national disgrace.
There are many disgraceful injustices competing for the top spot.
But sending people to die for reasons that at roughly as plausible as the excuses for police killing unarmed black people, reasons that are at worst outright falsehoods, and that are at best cavalier indifference to value of those people's lives, and then leaving those people for dead when they aren't killed in war, and all within the context of a public discourse that tries to cover itself with the fig leaf of "supporting troops" while treating them as subhuman, is evil and revolting.
Anyone who beats the drum of war in this country might as well be bludgeoning a soldier to death, and should be subjected to the same unless they publicly declare themselves a hypocrite.
posted by univac at 7:54 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are many disgraceful injustices competing for the top spot.
But sending people to die for reasons that at roughly as plausible as the excuses for police killing unarmed black people, reasons that are at worst outright falsehoods, and that are at best cavalier indifference to value of those people's lives, and then leaving those people for dead when they aren't killed in war, and all within the context of a public discourse that tries to cover itself with the fig leaf of "supporting troops" while treating them as subhuman, is evil and revolting.
Anyone who beats the drum of war in this country might as well be bludgeoning a soldier to death, and should be subjected to the same unless they publicly declare themselves a hypocrite.
posted by univac at 7:54 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
And not to derail, but this is an issue I've heard Bernie Sanders mention on the stump. Not sure about other candidates. One would think it would be a nonpartisan issue.
posted by univac at 8:00 AM on August 27, 2015
posted by univac at 8:00 AM on August 27, 2015
How much of this is a denominator issue rather than a numerator issue. The changing nature of combat and improvement in battlefield medicine resulted in an extremely low (by historical standards) combat death rates in Iraq and Afghanistan. According to Wikipedia, there have been about 5,000 combat deaths there spread out over 14 years. There were 50,000 (10x) the number of combat deaths in each of World War I and Vietnam, in less than two years (WWI) and (for the most part) about five years (1966-1971) for Vietnam. There were 300,000 (60x) in the 3.5 years of World War II.Well, yes ... but one of the consequences of improvements in battlefield medicine has been the survival and eventual return to civilian life of large numbers of soldiers with Traumatic Brain Injuries—at least 270000 cases, if this Forbes account is to be believed. Numerous reports, studies, and anecdotes suggest that those with brain injuries are not getting the treatment they need, and their condition manifests itself as mental illness, alcohol and substance abuse, PTSD, and general instability. Which are of course classic risk components of suicide. Wolfe himself, as the article makes clear, was diagnosed with an MBTI after his Iraq service, although it's unclear whether that was as a result of a mortar concussion or an old high school football injury. Which just opens up another can of worms about the general physical trauma associated with being a working-class male in the modern US ...
posted by Sonny Jim at 8:08 AM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is a very upsetting story.
Two things: The 22 suicides a day is probably not correct.
FTA: The V.A. told you that you had PTSD and MTBI, a mild traumatic brain injury—whether it was football in high school or all those mortars exploding around you in Iraq, they couldn't say
So, while we can blame Bush and Cheney for a bogus, stupid war, it's possible this man was impaired by a football injury.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:11 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Two things: The 22 suicides a day is probably not correct.
FTA: The V.A. told you that you had PTSD and MTBI, a mild traumatic brain injury—whether it was football in high school or all those mortars exploding around you in Iraq, they couldn't say
So, while we can blame Bush and Cheney for a bogus, stupid war, it's possible this man was impaired by a football injury.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:11 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
If we are gonna do war, then we must have a universal, gender-blind draft NOW.
WTF? This might make sense in some fantasy version of the US in which wars are waged out of defense or necessity. But you think a rational person who doesn't consider entering the killing business to be a career option is going to stand to leave it to chance whether I'm going to be sent to some desert or jungle to die for defense contractors' profit margins? Fuck no. I'd much sooner die resisting such a thing.
If we someday get to a Switzerland-like point where no one is worried about engaging in pointless wars then wonderful, but we're a hell of a long way from that. As we stand such a thing would only be some... grizzly Orwellian torture lottery.
posted by cmoj at 8:19 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
WTF? This might make sense in some fantasy version of the US in which wars are waged out of defense or necessity. But you think a rational person who doesn't consider entering the killing business to be a career option is going to stand to leave it to chance whether I'm going to be sent to some desert or jungle to die for defense contractors' profit margins? Fuck no. I'd much sooner die resisting such a thing.
If we someday get to a Switzerland-like point where no one is worried about engaging in pointless wars then wonderful, but we're a hell of a long way from that. As we stand such a thing would only be some... grizzly Orwellian torture lottery.
posted by cmoj at 8:19 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Look: for many families, these men are worth more dead than alive. The men know this. Want to lower the rate? Give them real jobs that pay many more times death benefits, and lower their cost of living.
Alive: must make cost of living, make progress on debt reduction
Dead: debts disappear, benefits come monthly to family
Why more don't discuss this simple math baffles me.
posted by EinAtlanta at 8:26 AM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
Alive: must make cost of living, make progress on debt reduction
Dead: debts disappear, benefits come monthly to family
Why more don't discuss this simple math baffles me.
posted by EinAtlanta at 8:26 AM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
So, while we can blame Bush and Cheney for a bogus, stupid war, it's possible this man was impaired by a football injury.
This is what it says in the article: "The V.A. told you that you had PTSD and MTBI, a mild traumatic brain injury—whether it was football in high school or all those mortars exploding around you in Iraq, they couldn't say"
Considering all of the symptoms he was displaying and the things he wrote to his wife Crystal about his fears during the war, it seems unlikely that his post-war PTSD was caused by football. The MTBI might have been the result of the war, or a football injury.
posted by zarq at 8:34 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is what it says in the article: "The V.A. told you that you had PTSD and MTBI, a mild traumatic brain injury—whether it was football in high school or all those mortars exploding around you in Iraq, they couldn't say"
Considering all of the symptoms he was displaying and the things he wrote to his wife Crystal about his fears during the war, it seems unlikely that his post-war PTSD was caused by football. The MTBI might have been the result of the war, or a football injury.
posted by zarq at 8:34 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
The MTBI might have been the result of the war, or a football injury.
Right, that's what I meant. And the article also goes on to say his parents believe his mental issues may have stemmed in his childhood.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:37 AM on August 27, 2015
Right, that's what I meant. And the article also goes on to say his parents believe his mental issues may have stemmed in his childhood.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:37 AM on August 27, 2015
So? He's still a soldier who came back from Iraq traumatized. He's still a veteran who committed suicide. Do you think those two facts are unrelated?
posted by zarq at 8:57 AM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by zarq at 8:57 AM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
No, I don't. I was just pointing out the complications.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:58 AM on August 27, 2015
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:58 AM on August 27, 2015
There are also the complications mentioned above by Etrigan - ruined relationships, ruined economies, ruined families, etc. (OK which also could possibly maybe sort of might be totally unrelated to their service if you want to be theoretically precise about it.) Suicide is just the bottom of a deep hole in which a lot of veterans find themselves after their service.
But saying "thank you for your service" seems about the only compensation most politicians are ready to support. I suppose that's better than ignoring them completely (the treatment most Vietnam veterans received),
But still 22 veteran suicides per day is a staggering, sobering, sickening crisis number.
Consider by comparison that 10 troops killed in one day was considered a "deadly day" of actual combat.....
BAGHDAD, Oct. 18, 2006 -- A roadside bombing and other attacks killed 10 American troops across Iraq on Tuesday, the U.S. military reported Wednesday, making it the deadliest day of combat for U.S. forces in 10 months.
posted by three blind mice at 9:19 AM on August 27, 2015
But saying "thank you for your service" seems about the only compensation most politicians are ready to support. I suppose that's better than ignoring them completely (the treatment most Vietnam veterans received),
But still 22 veteran suicides per day is a staggering, sobering, sickening crisis number.
Consider by comparison that 10 troops killed in one day was considered a "deadly day" of actual combat.....
BAGHDAD, Oct. 18, 2006 -- A roadside bombing and other attacks killed 10 American troops across Iraq on Tuesday, the U.S. military reported Wednesday, making it the deadliest day of combat for U.S. forces in 10 months.
posted by three blind mice at 9:19 AM on August 27, 2015
the fact that the military is so eager to enlist men and women who have obvious mental issues that going to war won't solve is also part of the problem - the military doesn't get a pass because they accepted someone who shouldn't have been there, and then damaged him further through their own inability to deal with soldiers when they're deployed and once they come home.
i was just having a conversation the other day about my high school stalker who would break into my locker to leave creepy notes and stuffed bunny rabbits who had been "stabbed" and "bloodied" (with a marker) and either decapitated or hung from a noose. i ran into him a year or two out of high school - he was an army ranger by that point. i am far from the only one with stories like this. the military is not blind to who they are enlisting - in fact, i think people with these issues are likely more attractive to recruiters. and that, coupled with brain injuries and ptsd and a lack of reintegration programs leads to outcomes like this.
posted by nadawi at 9:19 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
i was just having a conversation the other day about my high school stalker who would break into my locker to leave creepy notes and stuffed bunny rabbits who had been "stabbed" and "bloodied" (with a marker) and either decapitated or hung from a noose. i ran into him a year or two out of high school - he was an army ranger by that point. i am far from the only one with stories like this. the military is not blind to who they are enlisting - in fact, i think people with these issues are likely more attractive to recruiters. and that, coupled with brain injuries and ptsd and a lack of reintegration programs leads to outcomes like this.
posted by nadawi at 9:19 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
i also know lots of really awesome people in the military - kind people, people who joined because they believed they could help, people who were running out of options and thought it'd give their lives purpose. and i've seen them come home broken, shells of who they used to be. i've seen the military turn people suicidal who never struggled with those things before. i've seen friends who initially couldn't wait to come home, but when it actually came time to come home, suddenly searched for every way they could to stay because they didn't know how to exist outside of the sandbox anymore.
people can "well actually..." individual examples, but taken as a whole, something is terribly, heart-breakingly wrong with how veterans are cared for and we need to raise awareness and find some solutions.
posted by nadawi at 9:32 AM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
people can "well actually..." individual examples, but taken as a whole, something is terribly, heart-breakingly wrong with how veterans are cared for and we need to raise awareness and find some solutions.
posted by nadawi at 9:32 AM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
It's really not as simple as "Don't go to war."
but what if we said, "Don't go to failure." In other words, replaced the word "war" across the entire lexicon with "failure". That would be be a start, at least.
The American Civil Failure
The Hundred Years Failure
The Failure of the Spanish Succession
The Failure of 1812
The Failure of the Roses
The Thirty Years Failure
The Seven Years Failure
The Great Failure
World Failure Two
The Vietnam Failure
The Cold Failure
Veterans of Foreign Failures ...
I'm not saying that all wars don't need to be fought. I'm not saying that all wars are avoidable. That would be like saying that human nature is not flawed. It is. And all wars represent its failure acutely. And the soldiers we send to them are effectively trying to manage these massive, collective failures. There's no glory in it, little reward, the outcome is almost always horrific, regardless of he propaganda.
The worst jobs on earth.
posted by philip-random at 9:46 AM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
but what if we said, "Don't go to failure." In other words, replaced the word "war" across the entire lexicon with "failure". That would be be a start, at least.
The American Civil Failure
The Hundred Years Failure
The Failure of the Spanish Succession
The Failure of 1812
The Failure of the Roses
The Thirty Years Failure
The Seven Years Failure
The Great Failure
World Failure Two
The Vietnam Failure
The Cold Failure
Veterans of Foreign Failures ...
I'm not saying that all wars don't need to be fought. I'm not saying that all wars are avoidable. That would be like saying that human nature is not flawed. It is. And all wars represent its failure acutely. And the soldiers we send to them are effectively trying to manage these massive, collective failures. There's no glory in it, little reward, the outcome is almost always horrific, regardless of he propaganda.
The worst jobs on earth.
posted by philip-random at 9:46 AM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
WTF? This might make sense in some fantasy version of the US in which wars are waged out of defense or necessity. But you think a rational person who doesn't consider entering the killing business to be a career option is going to stand to leave it to chance whether I'm going to be sent to some desert or jungle to die for defense contractors' profit margins? Fuck no. I'd much sooner die resisting such a thing.
cmoj, I think that's the whole point of calling for a universal draft. If everyone has to go, not just the disadvantaged, then those who actually have some control over how the military is used, and how the veterans are treated, will have incentive to NOT send them to deserts or jungles to die for defense contractor's profit margins.
The current "all volunteer" military makes these stupid military adventures way too cheap, politically. A truly fair draft would raise the price and perhaps make our leaders less willing to pay. But politics is ruled by incrementalism. An attempt at a universal draft would end up so watered down that it would never manage to touch the ruling classes anyways.
posted by elizilla at 9:54 AM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
cmoj, I think that's the whole point of calling for a universal draft. If everyone has to go, not just the disadvantaged, then those who actually have some control over how the military is used, and how the veterans are treated, will have incentive to NOT send them to deserts or jungles to die for defense contractor's profit margins.
The current "all volunteer" military makes these stupid military adventures way too cheap, politically. A truly fair draft would raise the price and perhaps make our leaders less willing to pay. But politics is ruled by incrementalism. An attempt at a universal draft would end up so watered down that it would never manage to touch the ruling classes anyways.
posted by elizilla at 9:54 AM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
There's no glory in it, little reward, the outcome is almost always horrific, regardless of the propaganda.
I think most military veterans, especially those who served in World War II, would disagree with all of that.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:57 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think most military veterans, especially those who served in World War II, would disagree with all of that.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:57 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
cmoj, that is exactly my point -- my hope would be that if all of us HAVE to go, then we decide as a group that we aren't going to do it anymore. If you yourself don't want to go, then you will pull out all the stops to make sure no one goes either.
Right now we have a system where the sons (and some daughters) of wealthy, influential people pretty much get to opt out from military service completely, and many of the people who are most anxious to use military force are those most insulated from personal loss. But if you know your own son or daughter is going to be on the front lines, you're a lot less likely to consent to a defense contractor war.
I don't think we disagree that pointless wars are evil -- I just believe that a radical change in whose children actually get put in physical danger in war is the most effective way to end them.
posted by jfwlucy at 9:59 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Right now we have a system where the sons (and some daughters) of wealthy, influential people pretty much get to opt out from military service completely, and many of the people who are most anxious to use military force are those most insulated from personal loss. But if you know your own son or daughter is going to be on the front lines, you're a lot less likely to consent to a defense contractor war.
I don't think we disagree that pointless wars are evil -- I just believe that a radical change in whose children actually get put in physical danger in war is the most effective way to end them.
posted by jfwlucy at 9:59 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's no glory in it, little reward, the outcome is almost always horrific, regardless of the propaganda.
I think most military veterans, especially those who served in World War II, would disagree with all of that.
My dad fought front line in WW2. I'm confident he'd back me up. His year in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany was the worst of his life.
posted by philip-random at 10:04 AM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think most military veterans, especially those who served in World War II, would disagree with all of that.
My dad fought front line in WW2. I'm confident he'd back me up. His year in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany was the worst of his life.
posted by philip-random at 10:04 AM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
My dad fought front line in WW2. I'm confident he'd back me up. His year in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany was the worst of his life.
That doesn't mean there was no reward in what they did.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:06 AM on August 27, 2015
That doesn't mean there was no reward in what they did.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:06 AM on August 27, 2015
In addition to a universal, nobody-gets-out-of-this draft for any "conflict", I'd also suggest that the projected costs for the war be paid for immediately. If a war is "just" and needs to be fought, then we as a society should be willing to pay for it. You get a quarterly bill, based on your previous year's taxes, payable within 30 days.
I would suggest that the reasons why the US stayed in Iraq was because your normal middle class person didn't see any impact. We didn't have to pay for it (right away), nobody we knew was fighting in it and our leaders kept trotting out the fallacy of sunken cost. I suspect that the war would have ended much sooner (or wouldn't have been fought in the first place) had the entire population of the US had to pay something for the war, either in lives of those they know or directly in their pocketbook.
posted by ensign_ricky at 10:10 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would suggest that the reasons why the US stayed in Iraq was because your normal middle class person didn't see any impact. We didn't have to pay for it (right away), nobody we knew was fighting in it and our leaders kept trotting out the fallacy of sunken cost. I suspect that the war would have ended much sooner (or wouldn't have been fought in the first place) had the entire population of the US had to pay something for the war, either in lives of those they know or directly in their pocketbook.
posted by ensign_ricky at 10:10 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
once you get past world war 2 though, you quickly run out of good reasons and good outcomes. for a large portion of the people suffering today, they don't have the feel good justifications of fighting hitler (which doesn't even get into the fact that one reason we dragged our feet for so long to get into the war was because we wanted to make sure we were backing the winner, which isn't as morally superior as we like to portray our cowboying in at the last minute to claim victory).
posted by nadawi at 10:13 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 10:13 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think it's interesting that people who really get behind "sup[porting the troops" seem to also resent spending money on programs that might actually help those men and women when they returned home.
This sort of thing has largely become the actual American way (though of course this sort of thing exits all over the world). I'm somewhat convinced that mental health being taken seriously will remain an uphill battle for years to come with the likes of the Tea Party and Republicans in positions of power and those who vote for them. Which is doubly ironic because their resistance to enlightened mental health policies is a resistance to getting themselves some help because many of them are clearly outright insane.
My dad fought front line in WW2. I'm confident he'd back me up. His year in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany was the worst of his life.
Same for my grandfather. He would sob uncontrollably if you brought up the war. He fought in WW2 (and was at D-Day) and the Korean "police action". I was very young but he did say there has got to be a better way.
posted by juiceCake at 10:18 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
This sort of thing has largely become the actual American way (though of course this sort of thing exits all over the world). I'm somewhat convinced that mental health being taken seriously will remain an uphill battle for years to come with the likes of the Tea Party and Republicans in positions of power and those who vote for them. Which is doubly ironic because their resistance to enlightened mental health policies is a resistance to getting themselves some help because many of them are clearly outright insane.
My dad fought front line in WW2. I'm confident he'd back me up. His year in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany was the worst of his life.
Same for my grandfather. He would sob uncontrollably if you brought up the war. He fought in WW2 (and was at D-Day) and the Korean "police action". I was very young but he did say there has got to be a better way.
posted by juiceCake at 10:18 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you guys are missing the point, though. Reward is not about someone feeling good about war, right? Liberating the concentration camps wasn't a bad thing.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:21 AM on August 27, 2015
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:21 AM on August 27, 2015
I think you guys are missing the point, though. Reward is not about someone feeling good about war, right? Liberating the concentration camps wasn't a bad thing.
The point is not about the morality of war but the way that veterans are treated. World War II may be the closest thing to a just war that will ever be fought, but its benefits were experienced least by those who gave most.
posted by howfar at 10:25 AM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
The point is not about the morality of war but the way that veterans are treated. World War II may be the closest thing to a just war that will ever be fought, but its benefits were experienced least by those who gave most.
posted by howfar at 10:25 AM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
First, it has been show, time and time again, that the things the human brain and body do to help us survive when we are under consistent threat are hard to let go of when that threat is gone. When you are required to be alert constantly and continuously evaluating your situation for threats, it is damn near impossible to turn that off when you are in a safe place.
Second, we aren't really good at helping mentally healthy people come back from that "warrior" place in their brain. We expect you to come home, go to work at a regular job and be the person you were before. The problem with that is all the training and all the work to turn you into a soldier didn't happen overnight so why should the training to turn you back into a citizen take so little effort.
Third, we are really bad at helping the mentally ill who don't have added issues from combat find ways to adapt and function.
Fourth, we aren't really good at teaching young men how to deal with or address fear, uncertainty, and pain that isn't some form of "toughen up, bucky".
When you add these factors together, it makes a perfect shitstorm of pain for everyone who has to deal with a heavy trauma focused job. I guarantee that a large part of the police violence issue is directly related to the lack of training and understanding of the impact that trauma has on us.
This is a problem that's only going to grow. We've been at war for over a decade. We have to begin to address mental issues across the board, and specifically address those among our veterans. It's not the weak that have problems, and it's not the lucky who walk out fine. None of them are fine. The trauma of war touches every one and just like we have a training program to turn citizens into soldiers, we need to have that for everyone who comes back home. Not just focusing on those who look like they need it. Not just drugs and talking, but serious, hard core treatment that focuses on relearning how to deal with a world where you are not in danger 24/7. Basic for real life.
That won't fix everything, but it might be a start.
posted by teleri025 at 10:26 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Second, we aren't really good at helping mentally healthy people come back from that "warrior" place in their brain. We expect you to come home, go to work at a regular job and be the person you were before. The problem with that is all the training and all the work to turn you into a soldier didn't happen overnight so why should the training to turn you back into a citizen take so little effort.
Third, we are really bad at helping the mentally ill who don't have added issues from combat find ways to adapt and function.
Fourth, we aren't really good at teaching young men how to deal with or address fear, uncertainty, and pain that isn't some form of "toughen up, bucky".
When you add these factors together, it makes a perfect shitstorm of pain for everyone who has to deal with a heavy trauma focused job. I guarantee that a large part of the police violence issue is directly related to the lack of training and understanding of the impact that trauma has on us.
This is a problem that's only going to grow. We've been at war for over a decade. We have to begin to address mental issues across the board, and specifically address those among our veterans. It's not the weak that have problems, and it's not the lucky who walk out fine. None of them are fine. The trauma of war touches every one and just like we have a training program to turn citizens into soldiers, we need to have that for everyone who comes back home. Not just focusing on those who look like they need it. Not just drugs and talking, but serious, hard core treatment that focuses on relearning how to deal with a world where you are not in danger 24/7. Basic for real life.
That won't fix everything, but it might be a start.
posted by teleri025 at 10:26 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think you guys are missing the point, though. Reward is not about someone feeling good about war, right? Liberating the concentration camps wasn't a bad thing.
The OP is about the trauma that results from war. The reward, as the example of WW2 shows, clearly does not reduce the trauma.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 10:26 AM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
The OP is about the trauma that results from war. The reward, as the example of WW2 shows, clearly does not reduce the trauma.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 10:26 AM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
There is a special place in hell for George Bush, Dick Cheney and their lackeys who cheerleaded us into the Iraq war. I don't like to use the word hate but for those guys? Yes.
posted by zzazazz at 10:30 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by zzazazz at 10:30 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I volunteer for a crisis line. We take local Lifeline calls, and we're also a backup center for the VA Crisis Line.
Things I've learned:
1. Veterans don't have a lot of resources. The VA as it stands isn't enough to help them all; they have physical, emotional, financial problems that aren't being seen to.
2. People feel suicidal for many reasons, usually many at once. Military trauma is a reason and it's a multiplier on other reasons.
3. Military culture can be very macho but also very gentle -- it encourages stoicism and detachment, but it also encourages men to be family to each other.
4. Female veterans go through all the things male veterans go through, plus all the things women go through. The combination is brutal.
5. Crisis usually doesn't look like "crisis"; it looks like anger, flatness, anxiety, gregarious black humor, or a sense of being stuck. This tends to be more so in people who've been through the military and thus encouraged to keep everything down.
Before I started volunteering, I had only a very abstract idea of what vets experience, and the diversity of their experiences. I'm still very conscious of having to approach these calls humbly.
It's deepened my pacifism, but I don't talk about that on the line, because many of the vets are proud of their service and I don't want them to think I'm criticizing them personally when I criticize wars and how they're fought and who we ask to fight them.
Anyway, it's obviously not a pile of laughs, but if you'd like to help veterans and have good listening skills and a few hours a week to give, crisis line volunteering is one of the coolest things I've ever done and I recommend it. You use your whole brain, there's a lot of camaraderie, a lot of institutional support. People see it as a dramatic thing, and sometimes it is dramatic, but really all you are is a hand to hold in the dark, and one of many.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:32 AM on August 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
Things I've learned:
1. Veterans don't have a lot of resources. The VA as it stands isn't enough to help them all; they have physical, emotional, financial problems that aren't being seen to.
2. People feel suicidal for many reasons, usually many at once. Military trauma is a reason and it's a multiplier on other reasons.
3. Military culture can be very macho but also very gentle -- it encourages stoicism and detachment, but it also encourages men to be family to each other.
4. Female veterans go through all the things male veterans go through, plus all the things women go through. The combination is brutal.
5. Crisis usually doesn't look like "crisis"; it looks like anger, flatness, anxiety, gregarious black humor, or a sense of being stuck. This tends to be more so in people who've been through the military and thus encouraged to keep everything down.
Before I started volunteering, I had only a very abstract idea of what vets experience, and the diversity of their experiences. I'm still very conscious of having to approach these calls humbly.
It's deepened my pacifism, but I don't talk about that on the line, because many of the vets are proud of their service and I don't want them to think I'm criticizing them personally when I criticize wars and how they're fought and who we ask to fight them.
Anyway, it's obviously not a pile of laughs, but if you'd like to help veterans and have good listening skills and a few hours a week to give, crisis line volunteering is one of the coolest things I've ever done and I recommend it. You use your whole brain, there's a lot of camaraderie, a lot of institutional support. People see it as a dramatic thing, and sometimes it is dramatic, but really all you are is a hand to hold in the dark, and one of many.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:32 AM on August 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
and seriously, most of this post isn't about the 850k out of 16 million world war 2 vets who are still alive. that is an aging population and they aren't really in the biggest danger zone for out of control suicide numbers. it's like trying to justify operation desert storm with stories of glory from world war 1. it's a derail meant to minimize and obscure the point.
posted by nadawi at 10:35 AM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 10:35 AM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Reward is not about someone feeling good about war, right? Liberating the concentration camps wasn't a bad thing.
the many human failures that culminated in WW2 really got rolling in 1918-19 with the end of the first world world war and the truly flawed politicking that so undermined post-war Germany's economy. Hindsight's always 20-20, of course, but it's pretty clear that the seeds that grew into the Third Reich were planted there.
posted by philip-random at 10:35 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
the many human failures that culminated in WW2 really got rolling in 1918-19 with the end of the first world world war and the truly flawed politicking that so undermined post-war Germany's economy. Hindsight's always 20-20, of course, but it's pretty clear that the seeds that grew into the Third Reich were planted there.
posted by philip-random at 10:35 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I volunteer for a crisis line. We take local Lifeline calls, and we're also a backup center for the VA Crisis Line.
This phrase is going to sound jokey due to the topic, but I'm deadly serious: thank you for your service.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:42 AM on August 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
This phrase is going to sound jokey due to the topic, but I'm deadly serious: thank you for your service.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:42 AM on August 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
Thanks, we do what we can!
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:49 AM on August 27, 2015
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:49 AM on August 27, 2015
elizilla: The current "all volunteer" military makes these stupid military adventures way too cheap, politically. A truly fair draft would raise the price and perhaps make our leaders less willing to pay.
This is a nice thought, but in practice, the conscripted kids of the wealthy/powerful/well-connected probably wouldn't be exposed to any real danger. The commanding officer of a senators kid who suffers anything more harsh than a hangnail will be scrubbing latrines in Siberia for the rest of their career.
Meanwhile, the unfortunate sons will be pushed forward for cannon fodder. Same as it ever was.
posted by dr_dank at 11:03 AM on August 27, 2015
This is a nice thought, but in practice, the conscripted kids of the wealthy/powerful/well-connected probably wouldn't be exposed to any real danger. The commanding officer of a senators kid who suffers anything more harsh than a hangnail will be scrubbing latrines in Siberia for the rest of their career.
Meanwhile, the unfortunate sons will be pushed forward for cannon fodder. Same as it ever was.
posted by dr_dank at 11:03 AM on August 27, 2015
Honestly, it's not the wealthy and powerful kids being in the possible front line danger that would cause political change. If it was more of a danger to more of the middle class, I feel like that's where we'd get people to reflect differently.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:06 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:06 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
The ratio of your salary to average American salary.
The ratio of the net worth of your total holdings vs. the average for an American citizen.
Whichever of the two is greater, that's how many tickets each of your kids will get in the draft lottery. No exceptions save mental illness (with permanent legal record of assessment), or if you're maimed.
Somehow pass that law, and nothing short of a new Third Reich-equivalent would merit our leaders even publicly contemplating going to war.
posted by Ryvar at 11:27 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
The ratio of the net worth of your total holdings vs. the average for an American citizen.
Whichever of the two is greater, that's how many tickets each of your kids will get in the draft lottery. No exceptions save mental illness (with permanent legal record of assessment), or if you're maimed.
Somehow pass that law, and nothing short of a new Third Reich-equivalent would merit our leaders even publicly contemplating going to war.
posted by Ryvar at 11:27 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
it's a derail meant to minimize and obscure the point.
It's a derail that was brought up by philip-random insisting that all war ever Is failure. Pointing out that some wars have been waged against actual functioning capital-E Evil is a refutation of a derail, not an intentional minimizing or obscuring.
posted by Etrigan at 11:41 AM on August 27, 2015
It's a derail that was brought up by philip-random insisting that all war ever Is failure. Pointing out that some wars have been waged against actual functioning capital-E Evil is a refutation of a derail, not an intentional minimizing or obscuring.
posted by Etrigan at 11:41 AM on August 27, 2015
I do not want to minimize the effect of suicide by veterans on their families or communities, nor the responsibilities of the State in those suicides. That said, if roomthreeseventeen's link is correct, it's really important.
-the needs and assistance for senior citizen veterans are who are at risk of committing suicide are likely very different than those of veterans in their 20s.
-an accurate scope of the problem in Iraq/Afghanistan veterans seems important so we can know if resources and assistance (or lack thereof) are helping or not.
-any arguments for increases in resources and assistance for veterans based on faulty (or a faulty understanding of) research is way too easy for those opposed to fight against.
posted by atomicstone at 11:46 AM on August 27, 2015
-the needs and assistance for senior citizen veterans are who are at risk of committing suicide are likely very different than those of veterans in their 20s.
-an accurate scope of the problem in Iraq/Afghanistan veterans seems important so we can know if resources and assistance (or lack thereof) are helping or not.
-any arguments for increases in resources and assistance for veterans based on faulty (or a faulty understanding of) research is way too easy for those opposed to fight against.
posted by atomicstone at 11:46 AM on August 27, 2015
It looks like a lot of folks are interested in pursuing a narrative about the most recent Bush wars being unusually linked to vet suicides. roomthreeseventeen's link does put the 22-per-day number in a different perspective, and makes a finer point that doesn't exactly support the number as relating to modern Middle East wars.
More recent and detailed analysis of the issue seems to indicate that recent Iraq/Afghanistan vets do indeed suffer from higher suicide rates than the population that never served. But the numbers are not the 22 per day avg.
This isn't to minimize the issue. Because the effect does seem to be there. But the 22 per day avg is not an effect of Bush era wars.
FWIW, the number from the more recent study puts the number at about 1 per day among recent vets.
The issues here are varied: What explains the high rate of suicide among all vets? What explains the high rate of suicide among vets who served Iraq/Afghanistan? Another interesting detail: What explains the elevated rate among recent vets who didn't see combat in Iraq/Afghanistan?
posted by 2N2222 at 12:02 PM on August 27, 2015
More recent and detailed analysis of the issue seems to indicate that recent Iraq/Afghanistan vets do indeed suffer from higher suicide rates than the population that never served. But the numbers are not the 22 per day avg.
This isn't to minimize the issue. Because the effect does seem to be there. But the 22 per day avg is not an effect of Bush era wars.
FWIW, the number from the more recent study puts the number at about 1 per day among recent vets.
The issues here are varied: What explains the high rate of suicide among all vets? What explains the high rate of suicide among vets who served Iraq/Afghanistan? Another interesting detail: What explains the elevated rate among recent vets who didn't see combat in Iraq/Afghanistan?
posted by 2N2222 at 12:02 PM on August 27, 2015
Some of the links in this post (and links those found on those pages) discuss the high suicide rate of male and female veterans and provide data for which populations / age groups are most at risk. I included them in the hope that people would explore them.
Additional statistics regarding PTSD and suicide specifically for Iraq/Afghanistan veterans can be seen here with cites.
Creating pre-deployment assessment and training programs, and increasing post-service support and care for veterans is vitally important and could save lives. This remains true whether one veteran is killing themselves per day, or fifty.
posted by zarq at 12:13 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Additional statistics regarding PTSD and suicide specifically for Iraq/Afghanistan veterans can be seen here with cites.
Creating pre-deployment assessment and training programs, and increasing post-service support and care for veterans is vitally important and could save lives. This remains true whether one veteran is killing themselves per day, or fifty.
posted by zarq at 12:13 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Elevate suicide rate for returning Veterans
(check)
Underfunded VA
(check)
PTSD, same thing, different name.
(check)
This is where I came in. I am sort of disappointed that you guys seem surprised. Well, anyhow, we Vietnam Veterans lost the war, but we finally got Shell-Shock into that DVSM, or whatever it's called.
Same stuff:
Universal draft.
Throw more money at the VA.
Hate the war but love the warriors.
(Well, that last one is kinda different--this is actually alarming because I grew up in the 1950's with Nuremberg fresh in the news--can't give a Nazi a break, you know. We now amuse ourselves talking about incarcerating Cheney and Rumsfeld, but nobody seems to know how break the link between them and the kid who holds the soggy towel over the prisoner's face.)
Anyhow it's too complicated. Good kids go stand on that wall. So do assholes. Not too many want to tell you how the thrill in a gunfight works. It's easier to just look at the bodies and grimace. The smells don't translate into video games very well. Moral issues have to be recast under fire. You'd be surprised how uncomplicated it really is. Sure, from the armchair it's not complicated, either: Not me! Nope. Never would I do that. After you get past all the rationalizations is gets simple again. You'd be surprised. Never mind; the issue it the surprising factoid about the elevated suicide rate among Veterans. Surprise!
We've been all over this before. We go over it every time we have a new War to come home from. Why act surprised?
posted by mule98J at 12:30 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
(check)
Underfunded VA
(check)
PTSD, same thing, different name.
(check)
This is where I came in. I am sort of disappointed that you guys seem surprised. Well, anyhow, we Vietnam Veterans lost the war, but we finally got Shell-Shock into that DVSM, or whatever it's called.
Same stuff:
Universal draft.
Throw more money at the VA.
Hate the war but love the warriors.
(Well, that last one is kinda different--this is actually alarming because I grew up in the 1950's with Nuremberg fresh in the news--can't give a Nazi a break, you know. We now amuse ourselves talking about incarcerating Cheney and Rumsfeld, but nobody seems to know how break the link between them and the kid who holds the soggy towel over the prisoner's face.)
Anyhow it's too complicated. Good kids go stand on that wall. So do assholes. Not too many want to tell you how the thrill in a gunfight works. It's easier to just look at the bodies and grimace. The smells don't translate into video games very well. Moral issues have to be recast under fire. You'd be surprised how uncomplicated it really is. Sure, from the armchair it's not complicated, either: Not me! Nope. Never would I do that. After you get past all the rationalizations is gets simple again. You'd be surprised. Never mind; the issue it the surprising factoid about the elevated suicide rate among Veterans. Surprise!
We've been all over this before. We go over it every time we have a new War to come home from. Why act surprised?
posted by mule98J at 12:30 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
philip-random insisting that all war ever Is failure. Pointing out that some wars have been waged against actual functioning capital-E Evil is a refutation of a derail, not an intentional minimizing or obscuring.
would it be better if I'd said that all wars are the result of the very human failure to resolve the issues at hand by other less insane means? From a certain perspective, it certainly can be argued that the allied war effort of WW2 was successful at neutralizing the Axis powers and their inherent evils. But at what cost? How many millions of lives? How many trillions of dollars? Because it's entirely arguable that such could have been avoided had the victors of WW1 not been so vindictive toward Germany in its immediate wake. This is a lesson that America learned well and put into play post WW2 in their treatment of Germany and Japan.
posted by philip-random at 1:18 PM on August 27, 2015
would it be better if I'd said that all wars are the result of the very human failure to resolve the issues at hand by other less insane means? From a certain perspective, it certainly can be argued that the allied war effort of WW2 was successful at neutralizing the Axis powers and their inherent evils. But at what cost? How many millions of lives? How many trillions of dollars? Because it's entirely arguable that such could have been avoided had the victors of WW1 not been so vindictive toward Germany in its immediate wake. This is a lesson that America learned well and put into play post WW2 in their treatment of Germany and Japan.
posted by philip-random at 1:18 PM on August 27, 2015
would it be better if I'd said that all wars are the result of the very human failure to resolve the issues at hand by other less insane means?
Not much. Some wars (especially WW2) are because one side doesn't want to resolve issues through less insane means. Yes, there were things that could have been done to prevent WW2, but in September 1939, it was clear that Hitler was simply going to invade anyone he wanted, and at that time, war was a morally justifiable response (I'm not saying that everything the Allies did was justifiable, just that going to war against Hitler was). Saying that all war is failure and insanity makes everyone equally culpable, when that is rarely, if ever, the case.
posted by Etrigan at 1:31 PM on August 27, 2015
Not much. Some wars (especially WW2) are because one side doesn't want to resolve issues through less insane means. Yes, there were things that could have been done to prevent WW2, but in September 1939, it was clear that Hitler was simply going to invade anyone he wanted, and at that time, war was a morally justifiable response (I'm not saying that everything the Allies did was justifiable, just that going to war against Hitler was). Saying that all war is failure and insanity makes everyone equally culpable, when that is rarely, if ever, the case.
posted by Etrigan at 1:31 PM on August 27, 2015
There was plenty that could be been done to prevent WWII without war. There was little apart from war that could have been done in 1939, but that doesn't mean there weren't many, many options available earlier in the century or the decade. It doesn't make the good guys into bad guys to say that, had they done other things, they could have prevented any given war, even WWII or the Civil War (which was arguably the least preventable "good" war in US history [although even there, if you go back far enough, it could perhaps have been prevented, eg by not fighting the revolutionary war]).
It doesn't belittle our servicemen to say that every casualty is a tragedy caused in part by past policy failures.
[Edit: this was actually written and posted simultaneously with the above post, and wasn't meant to directly argue with it. Even the dual use of 1939 is a coincidence! I certainly don't mean to derail things onto this topic. Should have previewed...]
posted by chortly at 1:32 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
It doesn't belittle our servicemen to say that every casualty is a tragedy caused in part by past policy failures.
[Edit: this was actually written and posted simultaneously with the above post, and wasn't meant to directly argue with it. Even the dual use of 1939 is a coincidence! I certainly don't mean to derail things onto this topic. Should have previewed...]
posted by chortly at 1:32 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
How many trillions of dollars? Because it's entirely arguable that such could have been avoided had the victors of WW1 not been so vindictive toward Germany in its immediate wake. This is a lesson that America learned well and put into play post WW2 in their treatment of Germany and Japan.
Indeed, America put it into play after WWI. On an unofficial level, other europeans were donating food to starving Germany in the hyper-inflated twenties - iirc, Robert Graves mentions this ironically somewhere in his writings.
Mind you, there are plenty of instances of war that would not have answered to cooler heads simply because cooler heads were not on offer, only hot heads who would never have been satisfied by a win win proposition. In geopolitics as in office politics, there are those for whom winning is not the point; seeing the other side lose is the point.
posted by BWA at 5:38 PM on August 27, 2015
Indeed, America put it into play after WWI. On an unofficial level, other europeans were donating food to starving Germany in the hyper-inflated twenties - iirc, Robert Graves mentions this ironically somewhere in his writings.
Mind you, there are plenty of instances of war that would not have answered to cooler heads simply because cooler heads were not on offer, only hot heads who would never have been satisfied by a win win proposition. In geopolitics as in office politics, there are those for whom winning is not the point; seeing the other side lose is the point.
posted by BWA at 5:38 PM on August 27, 2015
I worked at the VA for a few years, but I'm also in the Army and have done a combat tour in Afghanistan. Obviously this is an issue that hits home for me.
There have been several great posts in this thread from other people much more intelligent and eloquent that I, but I'd just like to add how important I think it is to really analyze and understand the data that has been put out by the VA and other organizations, and to do so in context. Often numbers seemed to be cherry-picked and thrown around to create a flashy headline or as political ammunition for the guns of the culture war. I'm sure this happens with almost every issue in our country these days, I just feel more perceptive of it when it comes to military stuff. I guess the important thing to remember is that we all are trying for the same outcome on this issue, which is reducing the number of suicides by veterans.
As for how to do this, I would echo what many who work on this issue every day have said. The VA suggests increased outreach to vets (getting them enrolled and treated), focusing on the means (maybe don't keep a weapon or dangerous medication around) and reducing environmental factors (alcohol and drug abuse), and better treatment methods and strategies.
As for what the average person can do, I can only offer my own personal suggestions based on my beliefs and experiences. You can contact your elected representatives and voice your support for veterans and the VA. You can volunteer, again at the VA or with many local groups and/or non-profits and charities that focus on veterans issues. And you can stay informed on foreign policy issues and world events, and elect people who reflect your views.
I don't really like when people ask me if I killed anyone in Afghanistan, but it's a question I expect and I decided before I even got back home how I was going to answer it. But what does sometimes get to me is how ignorant people can be about the wars and what happened (and is still happening) over there. I think we all have the obligation as citizens to stay informed, even if that leads us to different conclusions about what we should do.
Anyway thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts on this issue.
posted by Man Bites Dog at 6:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [11 favorites]
There have been several great posts in this thread from other people much more intelligent and eloquent that I, but I'd just like to add how important I think it is to really analyze and understand the data that has been put out by the VA and other organizations, and to do so in context. Often numbers seemed to be cherry-picked and thrown around to create a flashy headline or as political ammunition for the guns of the culture war. I'm sure this happens with almost every issue in our country these days, I just feel more perceptive of it when it comes to military stuff. I guess the important thing to remember is that we all are trying for the same outcome on this issue, which is reducing the number of suicides by veterans.
As for how to do this, I would echo what many who work on this issue every day have said. The VA suggests increased outreach to vets (getting them enrolled and treated), focusing on the means (maybe don't keep a weapon or dangerous medication around) and reducing environmental factors (alcohol and drug abuse), and better treatment methods and strategies.
As for what the average person can do, I can only offer my own personal suggestions based on my beliefs and experiences. You can contact your elected representatives and voice your support for veterans and the VA. You can volunteer, again at the VA or with many local groups and/or non-profits and charities that focus on veterans issues. And you can stay informed on foreign policy issues and world events, and elect people who reflect your views.
I don't really like when people ask me if I killed anyone in Afghanistan, but it's a question I expect and I decided before I even got back home how I was going to answer it. But what does sometimes get to me is how ignorant people can be about the wars and what happened (and is still happening) over there. I think we all have the obligation as citizens to stay informed, even if that leads us to different conclusions about what we should do.
Anyway thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts on this issue.
posted by Man Bites Dog at 6:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [11 favorites]
I've been watching Generation War on Netflix. It does an excellent job portraying war as unfathomably soul crushing.
posted by juiceCake at 7:03 PM on August 28, 2015
posted by juiceCake at 7:03 PM on August 28, 2015
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