An American Void
September 15, 2015 9:22 AM Subscribe
“I didn’t take him seriously,” is what Joey says again and again to the people who keep asking the same questions again and again, including investigators who arrived at the trailer after one of the most notorious mass killings in recent American history.
Why did he do nothing? they asked.
What kind of people would do nothing? (Longform WaPo)
“The KKK, that’s one thing I don’t understand,” as Joey says. “Was the KKK an actual violent thing?”
I suspect people did nothing because a racist idiot barely registers as a blip in an environment already laced with racist idiocy.
posted by Artw at 9:27 AM on September 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
I suspect people did nothing because a racist idiot barely registers as a blip in an environment already laced with racist idiocy.
posted by Artw at 9:27 AM on September 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
God damn that was depressing to read. Void is a very accurate one word summation of everything there, culture, outlook, prospects...
posted by diziet at 9:29 AM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by diziet at 9:29 AM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
Skimmed this in print, but it really felt like poverty, redneck exploitation porn. Especially the inside 2-page fold spread.
posted by k5.user at 9:30 AM on September 15, 2015 [25 favorites]
posted by k5.user at 9:30 AM on September 15, 2015 [25 favorites]
k5.user, word. And the captions on all the images.
"Everyone who lives in this trailer smokes" CUE THE GASPS OF THE UPPER MIDDLE CLASS.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:46 AM on September 15, 2015 [29 favorites]
"Everyone who lives in this trailer smokes" CUE THE GASPS OF THE UPPER MIDDLE CLASS.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:46 AM on September 15, 2015 [29 favorites]
The explanation for why he did nothing is pretty simple. There's a vast disproportion between idiots who spout off tough talk about awful things they're going to do, and the number who actually do it. Everyone knows this.
It's similar to the problem faced in suicide prevention efforts. Any criteria that are devised to identify people at high risk of suicide, dramatically overreach in terms of the number of people they identify, versus the number of people who actually commit suicide. So if intervention efforts are to be applied to all of those people, they are affecting mostly people who would never commit suicide.
I thought I posted about this on Metafilter, but a search turned up nothing, so I will keep it vague in case I posted it elsewhere. One time I reported some world-changing-if-it-had-actually-been-followed-through-with "tough talk" to the authorities, and got blown off, almost laughed at by the official ... for the same reasons, I suspect, as I set forth above. Tough talk is everywhere, and nobody really takes it very seriously until something terrible happens.
posted by jayder at 9:49 AM on September 15, 2015 [19 favorites]
It's similar to the problem faced in suicide prevention efforts. Any criteria that are devised to identify people at high risk of suicide, dramatically overreach in terms of the number of people they identify, versus the number of people who actually commit suicide. So if intervention efforts are to be applied to all of those people, they are affecting mostly people who would never commit suicide.
I thought I posted about this on Metafilter, but a search turned up nothing, so I will keep it vague in case I posted it elsewhere. One time I reported some world-changing-if-it-had-actually-been-followed-through-with "tough talk" to the authorities, and got blown off, almost laughed at by the official ... for the same reasons, I suspect, as I set forth above. Tough talk is everywhere, and nobody really takes it very seriously until something terrible happens.
posted by jayder at 9:49 AM on September 15, 2015 [19 favorites]
I suspect people did nothing because a racist idiot barely registers as a blip in an environment already completely chaotic and beyond their control.
posted by PMdixon at 9:49 AM on September 15, 2015 [50 favorites]
posted by PMdixon at 9:49 AM on September 15, 2015 [50 favorites]
PMdixon, I think that's right on. Also, mistrust of authorities.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:52 AM on September 15, 2015
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:52 AM on September 15, 2015
Skimmed this in print, but it really felt like poverty, redneck exploitation porn. Especially the inside 2-page fold spread.
posted by k5.user at 9:30 AM on September 15 [2 favorites +] [!]
I can see why you say this (I was thinking, "shit, these people live like the characters in Winter's Bone"), but at the same time, these people really live like this, so it's almost as if you are saying that the accurate depiction of these people's existences is "porn," which is really weird ... like you would prefer that they remain out of sight so that they do not end up confirming stereotypes of the lifestyles of the poor that you find offensive, even though these are real people's lives and nothing is being made up.
posted by jayder at 9:53 AM on September 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by k5.user at 9:30 AM on September 15 [2 favorites +] [!]
I can see why you say this (I was thinking, "shit, these people live like the characters in Winter's Bone"), but at the same time, these people really live like this, so it's almost as if you are saying that the accurate depiction of these people's existences is "porn," which is really weird ... like you would prefer that they remain out of sight so that they do not end up confirming stereotypes of the lifestyles of the poor that you find offensive, even though these are real people's lives and nothing is being made up.
posted by jayder at 9:53 AM on September 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
it really felt like poverty, redneck exploitation porn
but with a reference to the shooter listening to opera on his own in his car. I'm curious which opera. Wagner or something else?
posted by srboisvert at 9:54 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
but with a reference to the shooter listening to opera on his own in his car. I'm curious which opera. Wagner or something else?
posted by srboisvert at 9:54 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
like you would prefer that they remain out of sight so that they do not end up confirming stereotypes of the lifestyles of the poor that you find offensive, even though these are real people's lives and nothing is being made up.
it's not the lifestyle that is offensive, it's the breathless and yet fascinated horror with which the writers and editors present it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:56 AM on September 15, 2015 [20 favorites]
it's not the lifestyle that is offensive, it's the breathless and yet fascinated horror with which the writers and editors present it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:56 AM on September 15, 2015 [20 favorites]
I suspect people did nothing because a racist idiot barely registers as a blip in an environment already completely chaotic and beyond their control.
That too. One pretty much being a breeding ground for the other.
posted by Artw at 9:58 AM on September 15, 2015
That too. One pretty much being a breeding ground for the other.
posted by Artw at 9:58 AM on September 15, 2015
This is America. America is this. If you say you love America, this is what you love.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:59 AM on September 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:59 AM on September 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
Redneck exploitation porn is right. The writer is basically gasping, "Oh my God, look at how they LIVE!" A bunch of kids huddled together in a trailer, drinking and smoking and partying. Wow. Who knew people did such things!
Uh, everybody?
I've been in trailers exactly like that. Only difference was we were there on lunch break, to do drugs; we all had jobs (because you could still get jobs back then). But the mother's endless cleaning, the violent video games, the constant drinking and smoking... that the writer is shocked twenty-somethings do these things makes me wonder how rare and strange her own life is compared to the norm.
posted by goblinbox at 10:03 AM on September 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
Uh, everybody?
I've been in trailers exactly like that. Only difference was we were there on lunch break, to do drugs; we all had jobs (because you could still get jobs back then). But the mother's endless cleaning, the violent video games, the constant drinking and smoking... that the writer is shocked twenty-somethings do these things makes me wonder how rare and strange her own life is compared to the norm.
posted by goblinbox at 10:03 AM on September 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
I can see why you say this (I was thinking, "shit, these people live like the characters in Winter's Bone"), but at the same time, these people really live like this...
Them, and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people like them. (Millions?) The Meeks aren't a rare species of American -- they're largely what Americans look like. It's just uncomfortable to acknowledge, so we whitewash. Or class-wash, as it were.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:03 AM on September 15, 2015 [20 favorites]
Them, and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people like them. (Millions?) The Meeks aren't a rare species of American -- they're largely what Americans look like. It's just uncomfortable to acknowledge, so we whitewash. Or class-wash, as it were.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:03 AM on September 15, 2015 [20 favorites]
I read through that looking for some kind of insight into what friendship between young men looks like, some comment on the reason why someone wouldn't take their "friend" seriously. I think I've heard the "Oh, he was just talking the usual bullshit but I didn't think he'd actually do it" countless times from some murderer's best friend. The "oh he talked about killing his wife and kids and told me exactly how he was going to do it but I just thought he was letting off steam so I didn't really listen to him."
I remember reading in some article about how some men tend to consider anybody they hang around with for hours as a friend. Do it regularly enough and the two guys consider themselves best friends, even without any heart to heart discussions that lead to intimate bonding. There's a lot of one upping, talking nonsense, etc. so I guess I was looking for that in the article. The guys are best friends only because they play video games together and Roof had a car that Joey thought he might get to borrow.
I guess whatever article I read (and I feel like it was an article attached to an FPP this year sometime) let me think that it was totally possible that Roof's "friends" (or people who just let him hang around to play video games and talk sports with) could be like the bewildered neighbor who thought the murderer next door seemed like such a normal guy.
posted by discopolo at 10:05 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I remember reading in some article about how some men tend to consider anybody they hang around with for hours as a friend. Do it regularly enough and the two guys consider themselves best friends, even without any heart to heart discussions that lead to intimate bonding. There's a lot of one upping, talking nonsense, etc. so I guess I was looking for that in the article. The guys are best friends only because they play video games together and Roof had a car that Joey thought he might get to borrow.
I guess whatever article I read (and I feel like it was an article attached to an FPP this year sometime) let me think that it was totally possible that Roof's "friends" (or people who just let him hang around to play video games and talk sports with) could be like the bewildered neighbor who thought the murderer next door seemed like such a normal guy.
posted by discopolo at 10:05 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
they're largely what Americans look like.
Do you have any evidence to back that up?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:06 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Do you have any evidence to back that up?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:06 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
they're largely what Americans look like.
America looks like a lot of things.
It saddens me to admit that when I was a 20 year old stoner hanging out with my buddies if one of them had said they were going to go on a shooting spree we would would not have taken them seriously and probably even (jokingly) egged them on.
posted by bondcliff at 10:19 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
America looks like a lot of things.
It saddens me to admit that when I was a 20 year old stoner hanging out with my buddies if one of them had said they were going to go on a shooting spree we would would not have taken them seriously and probably even (jokingly) egged them on.
posted by bondcliff at 10:19 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
On the poverty porn/Winter's Bone theme, this article and the bleak world remind me strongly of a WaPo article discussed here on the blue a couple of years ago. It chronicled bus that brought lunches to kids in rural Tennessee through the summer. Kids in the middle of nowhere with no transportation, no options, just sitting around watching TV and trying not to be hungry. Heartbreaking...and so is this. Sorry I can't find the link.
posted by Measured Out my Life in Coffeespoons at 10:21 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Measured Out my Life in Coffeespoons at 10:21 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
The writer is basically gasping, "Oh my God, look at how they LIVE!"
Compare and contrast with post earlier today: ‘Are they that desperate if they have a smartphone?’... and despair.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:24 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Compare and contrast with post earlier today: ‘Are they that desperate if they have a smartphone?’... and despair.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:24 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I know it's a total "well, DUH" moment but pop culture and media serves up the middle/upper-class narrative as the standard for everyone's lives, and uses the lower-class/ethnic/other narratives as a way for people to gawk. Because we hardly ever see the latter stories in our everyday media consumption, it becomes entirely too easy to rubberneck. (Well, see them taken seriously and not as punchlines.)
posted by Kitteh at 10:36 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 10:36 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I grew up in a trailer park. I am deeply, painfully familiar with this world. I've known people like this, my whole life. Their words and behaviors in this article all ring true. The editorial slant is annoying, but remember who this article is being written for. Upper middle class is still considered the default by our culture's media. It's just one more example of the fact that poor white people are the one marginalized group that it is still 100% okay to pubicly mock and ridicule and belittle and condescend to and scapegoat, without any kind of blowback or protest. Probably always will be.
No one gives a shit about trailer trash.
posted by KHAAAN! at 10:36 AM on September 15, 2015 [21 favorites]
No one gives a shit about trailer trash.
posted by KHAAAN! at 10:36 AM on September 15, 2015 [21 favorites]
> it's almost as if you are saying that the accurate depiction of these people's existences is "porn,"
This isn't an accurate depiction, this is a depiction curated for WaPo readers. I'm reminded of the start of Roger Ebert's review of the movie Underworld (**):
Brendan Gill, the distinguished writer for the New Yorker, offered a definition of pornography that has stood the test of time. A porno movie, he said, is a movie where you become acutely aware that the characters are spending too much time getting in and out of cars and walking in and out of doors.
I think under that definition, this article is hardcore porn.
posted by Sunburnt at 10:39 AM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
This isn't an accurate depiction, this is a depiction curated for WaPo readers. I'm reminded of the start of Roger Ebert's review of the movie Underworld (**):
Brendan Gill, the distinguished writer for the New Yorker, offered a definition of pornography that has stood the test of time. A porno movie, he said, is a movie where you become acutely aware that the characters are spending too much time getting in and out of cars and walking in and out of doors.
I think under that definition, this article is hardcore porn.
posted by Sunburnt at 10:39 AM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
And the worst part is the only part made me want to cry is the damn puppy dying because I'm so hardened to stories of this kind of life.
FWIW I don't think the puppy actually died...the article notes that he can't feel the heartbeat even though it's there. Just in case you needed some relief from the bleakness :)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:40 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
FWIW I don't think the puppy actually died...the article notes that he can't feel the heartbeat even though it's there. Just in case you needed some relief from the bleakness :)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:40 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Measured Out My Life: I remember that story, too. "In rural Tennessee, a new way to help hungry children: A bus turned bread truck"
posted by amk at 10:49 AM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by amk at 10:49 AM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Wait, he was checking the puppy's heartbeat? I thought he was checking his girlfriend's heartbeat. I'M SO CONFUSED.
On the one hand, I can see how this reads as poverty porn. On the other hand-- this was the world where Dylann Roof lived. I think that attempting to understand murderous hatred as the possible offshoot of constant, grinding despair and hopelessness is useful. This was the last place he went before he decided to go through with it. This is the context of what came next.
(Also, my heart ached for the mother's response to her own bewildered misery being "silver lining" memes on Facebook. Heinous racial violence and facebook tripe: two sides of the same coin. How devastating.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:50 AM on September 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
On the one hand, I can see how this reads as poverty porn. On the other hand-- this was the world where Dylann Roof lived. I think that attempting to understand murderous hatred as the possible offshoot of constant, grinding despair and hopelessness is useful. This was the last place he went before he decided to go through with it. This is the context of what came next.
(Also, my heart ached for the mother's response to her own bewildered misery being "silver lining" memes on Facebook. Heinous racial violence and facebook tripe: two sides of the same coin. How devastating.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:50 AM on September 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
I really feel sorry for anyone who posts an inspirational FB message. It tells me they're in a horrible place and they have no coping skills left.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:55 AM on September 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 10:55 AM on September 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
Brendan Gill, the distinguished writer for the New Yorker, offered a definition of pornography that has stood the test of time. A porno movie, he said, is a movie where you become acutely aware that the characters are spending too much time getting in and out of cars and walking in and out of doors.
I think under that definition, this article is hardcore porn.
posted by Sunburnt at 10:39 AM on September 15 [1 favorite +] [!]
First of all, that definition of porn makes no sense to me at all.
Second, thank you for appealing to the words of a Yale grad/Skull and Bones member as your authority for what constitutes "porn" in a depiction of the desperate poor.
posted by jayder at 10:55 AM on September 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think under that definition, this article is hardcore porn.
posted by Sunburnt at 10:39 AM on September 15 [1 favorite +] [!]
First of all, that definition of porn makes no sense to me at all.
Second, thank you for appealing to the words of a Yale grad/Skull and Bones member as your authority for what constitutes "porn" in a depiction of the desperate poor.
posted by jayder at 10:55 AM on September 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
I really feel sorry for anyone who posts an inspirational FB message. It tells me they're in a horrible place and they have no coping skills left.
Or they just like inspirational messages on social media?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:59 AM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Or they just like inspirational messages on social media?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:59 AM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think what bothered me the most (i.e., not the "redneck exploitation porn") is that Joey took away Dylann's gun at one point and hid it from him, because the group was scared enough by what Dylann was spouting off.
How do you go from being worried enough to secret away someone's firearm for about a day or so to thinking "meh....this dude's just talking shit?"
posted by kuanes at 11:10 AM on September 15, 2015
How do you go from being worried enough to secret away someone's firearm for about a day or so to thinking "meh....this dude's just talking shit?"
posted by kuanes at 11:10 AM on September 15, 2015
Everyone's reactions in this story make me feel like they are constantly in the midst of trauma
It reminded me of the beginning of the book My Brilliant Friend, where to give some background to the story she's about to tell, Ferrante has to describe the constant violence and illness that is the background radiation of the protagonist's poor neighborhood:
“Our world was like that, full of words that killed: croup, tetanus, typhus, gas, war, lathe, rubble, work, bombardment, bomb, tuberculosis, infection. With these words and those years I bring back the many fears that accompanied me all my life.”
That really stuck with me, because I too grew up poor, and I have trouble, when telling stories about my youth, communicating the reasoning behind anything. Everyone's actions seem illogical when you remove them from the overall context, a context in which someone coming to your house and going on a rant while brandishing a gun is perfectly normal.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:10 AM on September 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
It reminded me of the beginning of the book My Brilliant Friend, where to give some background to the story she's about to tell, Ferrante has to describe the constant violence and illness that is the background radiation of the protagonist's poor neighborhood:
“Our world was like that, full of words that killed: croup, tetanus, typhus, gas, war, lathe, rubble, work, bombardment, bomb, tuberculosis, infection. With these words and those years I bring back the many fears that accompanied me all my life.”
That really stuck with me, because I too grew up poor, and I have trouble, when telling stories about my youth, communicating the reasoning behind anything. Everyone's actions seem illogical when you remove them from the overall context, a context in which someone coming to your house and going on a rant while brandishing a gun is perfectly normal.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:10 AM on September 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
It's also very similar to the story of Chris Kyle and Eddie Ray Routh. Trauma was such a pervasive part of their lifestyle that no warning sign could really be enough to stand out from the background.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:12 AM on September 15, 2015
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:12 AM on September 15, 2015
How do you go from being worried enough to secret away someone's firearm for about a day or so to thinking "meh....this dude's just talking shit?"
They took away his gun when he was drunk, which of course often means people make very poor choices of a type they generally wouldn't make sober. The subtext is also that they appear to mostly have been worried about suicide rather than murder.
posted by zug at 11:13 AM on September 15, 2015 [11 favorites]
They took away his gun when he was drunk, which of course often means people make very poor choices of a type they generally wouldn't make sober. The subtext is also that they appear to mostly have been worried about suicide rather than murder.
posted by zug at 11:13 AM on September 15, 2015 [11 favorites]
I think I've heard the "Oh, he was just talking the usual bullshit but I didn't think he'd actually do it" countless times from some murderer's best friend. The "oh he talked about killing his wife and kids and told me exactly how he was going to do it but I just thought he was letting off steam so I didn't really listen to him."
Well, of course you've heard it countless times because, as jayder notes above, there's a huge gulf between the number of people who talk shit and the number of people who actually ever act on it. This is just trivially true. For every "murderer's best friend" there millions of best friends of people who talked a lot of shit and then didn't do anything.
How many people have you known who have said things like "I'll kill him!" in a rage, or while drunk. You yourself have likely said these kinds of things. I'm not sure why you're framing this as some sort of sad or shocking revelation.
I remember reading in some article about how some men tend to consider anybody they hang around with for hours as a friend. Do it regularly enough and the two guys consider themselves best friends, even without any heart to heart discussions that lead to intimate bonding.
Yes, you make friends with other guys by doing things together and getting along. What do you do, swear blood oaths to each other before the Great Dark One after years of contemplation?
posted by Sangermaine at 11:14 AM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
Well, of course you've heard it countless times because, as jayder notes above, there's a huge gulf between the number of people who talk shit and the number of people who actually ever act on it. This is just trivially true. For every "murderer's best friend" there millions of best friends of people who talked a lot of shit and then didn't do anything.
How many people have you known who have said things like "I'll kill him!" in a rage, or while drunk. You yourself have likely said these kinds of things. I'm not sure why you're framing this as some sort of sad or shocking revelation.
I remember reading in some article about how some men tend to consider anybody they hang around with for hours as a friend. Do it regularly enough and the two guys consider themselves best friends, even without any heart to heart discussions that lead to intimate bonding.
Yes, you make friends with other guys by doing things together and getting along. What do you do, swear blood oaths to each other before the Great Dark One after years of contemplation?
posted by Sangermaine at 11:14 AM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think what bothered me the most (i.e., not the "redneck exploitation porn") is that Joey took away Dylann's gun at one point and hid it from him, because the group was scared enough by what Dylann was spouting off.
They explained this-- Roof was drunk. They have had other friends threaten to do things while drunk, and then do them, so they believed that he would do something violent while he was drunk.
They didn't think he would do anything sober, which is why they gave the gun back once he sobered up the next day.
I'm not saying these are good choices, AT ALL, but the fact is: a lot of people will do things while intoxicated that they would not typically do while sober. Also, given the history of their other friend Shane, it seems like they were mostly worried Roof would hurt himself.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:14 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
They explained this-- Roof was drunk. They have had other friends threaten to do things while drunk, and then do them, so they believed that he would do something violent while he was drunk.
They didn't think he would do anything sober, which is why they gave the gun back once he sobered up the next day.
I'm not saying these are good choices, AT ALL, but the fact is: a lot of people will do things while intoxicated that they would not typically do while sober. Also, given the history of their other friend Shane, it seems like they were mostly worried Roof would hurt himself.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:14 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
jinx, zug.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:17 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:17 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I grew up in a town just like this, with "friends" (in quotes because as discopolo mentions, you just hang out because they're there) just like this. This is normal in rural America.
I could tell you some horrible stories. Buy me a drink at a meetup and maybe I will.
posted by domo at 11:24 AM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
I could tell you some horrible stories. Buy me a drink at a meetup and maybe I will.
posted by domo at 11:24 AM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
They took away his gun when he was drunk
There is the fact that Joey and Roof were friends with Christon, to the point where Christon says that even now, he still loves Roof as a friend. So I can see Joey (who seems unclear on the KKK being an actual terrorist group) figuring that in addition to being drunk, Roof's racist rhetoric didn't make sense in light of the fact that they were hanging out with Christon.
posted by skye.dancer at 11:27 AM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
There is the fact that Joey and Roof were friends with Christon, to the point where Christon says that even now, he still loves Roof as a friend. So I can see Joey (who seems unclear on the KKK being an actual terrorist group) figuring that in addition to being drunk, Roof's racist rhetoric didn't make sense in light of the fact that they were hanging out with Christon.
posted by skye.dancer at 11:27 AM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
> your authority for what constitutes "porn" in a depiction of the desperate poor.
Porn is in the depiction, not the content, and you don't have to be poor to recognize poverty porn-- actually that might work against you. Good thing we don't have to be pornstars in order to recognize porn.
Porn is a curated, edited work designed to arouse the passion of a target audience, a work that concerns itself entirely with what people are doing moment to moment, with the understanding that the audience already thinks it knows why, is willing to look elsewhere to find out why, or doesn't care why.
posted by Sunburnt at 11:32 AM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
Porn is in the depiction, not the content, and you don't have to be poor to recognize poverty porn-- actually that might work against you. Good thing we don't have to be pornstars in order to recognize porn.
Porn is a curated, edited work designed to arouse the passion of a target audience, a work that concerns itself entirely with what people are doing moment to moment, with the understanding that the audience already thinks it knows why, is willing to look elsewhere to find out why, or doesn't care why.
posted by Sunburnt at 11:32 AM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
> This is America. America is this. If you say you love America, this is what you love.
area of the united states
population of the united states
number of municipalities in the us
Percent of Housing Units That are Mobile Homes (most recent) by state
This is in America, or at least the underlying scene that leads to articles like this one is. But c'mon. Is that scene the lives of, for example, the people Dylann Roof murdered? No, it is not. It's not even the lives of a lot of poor white people who live in not-so-great housing in places like Columbia. There's probably rhetorical utility in saying stuff like this, but it doesn't exactly broaden the possibilities for understanding what America, all vasty and contradictory in its staggering scale and complexity, is actually like.
posted by brennen at 11:43 AM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
area of the united states
population of the united states
number of municipalities in the us
Percent of Housing Units That are Mobile Homes (most recent) by state
This is in America, or at least the underlying scene that leads to articles like this one is. But c'mon. Is that scene the lives of, for example, the people Dylann Roof murdered? No, it is not. It's not even the lives of a lot of poor white people who live in not-so-great housing in places like Columbia. There's probably rhetorical utility in saying stuff like this, but it doesn't exactly broaden the possibilities for understanding what America, all vasty and contradictory in its staggering scale and complexity, is actually like.
posted by brennen at 11:43 AM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Any home will do.
Are you saying that murderer can grow up in any home? Because yes, for sure. But the level of trauma, poverty, neglect and ignorance here all contributed to the specific crime we're talking about.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:47 AM on September 15, 2015
Are you saying that murderer can grow up in any home? Because yes, for sure. But the level of trauma, poverty, neglect and ignorance here all contributed to the specific crime we're talking about.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:47 AM on September 15, 2015
Percent of Housing Units That are Mobile Homes (most recent) by state
Deeply disappointed in the 505 here.
posted by PMdixon at 11:51 AM on September 15, 2015
Deeply disappointed in the 505 here.
posted by PMdixon at 11:51 AM on September 15, 2015
This was at the house in Ridgewood. It was vinyl-sided with two stories and a decent yard. And though Joey had started climbing out of his bedroom window at night, Sean was trying to keep him in line. ... The family went to church, Kim got her degree as a medical technician and a job in her field, and this was how life was going, she says, until the Friday she came home from Aaron’s rent-to-own furniture store ... and Sean said he was leaving her.
That fall was when Jacob started cutting his arms. Joey dropped out of high school. Kim lost her job, couldn’t afford the house and rented the banged-up trailer off the highway.
This is also the story of a father's abandonment of his wife and children, and how precarious the household turned out to be once he was gone. It's the story of a woman falling out of the lower middle class, and the lack of support structures to help her.
posted by jokeefe at 11:51 AM on September 15, 2015 [46 favorites]
That fall was when Jacob started cutting his arms. Joey dropped out of high school. Kim lost her job, couldn’t afford the house and rented the banged-up trailer off the highway.
This is also the story of a father's abandonment of his wife and children, and how precarious the household turned out to be once he was gone. It's the story of a woman falling out of the lower middle class, and the lack of support structures to help her.
posted by jokeefe at 11:51 AM on September 15, 2015 [46 favorites]
Yes exactly... I just meant that per brennen's link it doesn't need to be a mobile home to engender this sort of environment.
Yeah, sorry, I'm not trying to make any big statement about mobile homes. I was just trying to say hey, America still contains multitudes.
posted by brennen at 11:59 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, sorry, I'm not trying to make any big statement about mobile homes. I was just trying to say hey, America still contains multitudes.
posted by brennen at 11:59 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are a few number of people who are trying to sound the klaxon on the disconnect between the "two Americas," i.e. the one in which helicopter parents fret over their kids' college prospects & mutter about the prices at Whole Foods and the one in which a woman can slide out of the middle class suburb she lives in courtesy of a divorce and a loss of a presumed "secure" job like medical technician. You look at the mom in this story and what you see is someone who tried to do everything "right" but still ended up having her life examined like she's some sort of specimen for Beltway careerists to gawp at.
David Simon's talked about it. But I'd also like to point out Anand Giriharadas, who covered this extensively in his reportage on Texan Mark Stroman shooting Bangladeshi immigrant Raisuddin Bhuiyan in the face, and came to believe the incident exemplified two Americas. The Ted Talk he did is here. The quote a lot of people reblog or use as their own talking point:
David Simon's talked about it. But I'd also like to point out Anand Giriharadas, who covered this extensively in his reportage on Texan Mark Stroman shooting Bangladeshi immigrant Raisuddin Bhuiyan in the face, and came to believe the incident exemplified two Americas. The Ted Talk he did is here. The quote a lot of people reblog or use as their own talking point:
“If you live near a Whole Foods,” he said. “If no relative of yours serves in the military; If you’re paid by the year, not the hour; If no one you know uses meth; If you married once and remain married; If most people you know finished college; If you aren’t one of 65 million Americans with a criminal record. If any or all of these things describe you, then accept the possibility that, actually, you may not know what’s going on, and you may be part of the problem.”posted by sobell at 12:01 PM on September 15, 2015 [26 favorites]
The puppy Daisy is definitely not a pit bull. That little, but obvious, change the author made, works to create a more "redneck porn" experience for the reader. Because everyone knows poor hicks all smoke, don't read, and own pitbulls.
It's a well-written, well-curated collection of observations and half truths.
I'm not sure if that's good or bad, because it does, in my experience do a really good job capturing rooms I've been in, families I've been friends with. But just because I can see truth in the article, I don't know if increases the Meek's humanity to those that will never experience or witness poverty like that.
posted by Grandysaur at 12:02 PM on September 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's a well-written, well-curated collection of observations and half truths.
I'm not sure if that's good or bad, because it does, in my experience do a really good job capturing rooms I've been in, families I've been friends with. But just because I can see truth in the article, I don't know if increases the Meek's humanity to those that will never experience or witness poverty like that.
posted by Grandysaur at 12:02 PM on September 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
What do you do, swear blood oaths to each other before the Great Dark One after years of contemplation?
I won't speak for other ladies on what criteria they use to discern a best friend from a friend or an acquaintance but my best girlfriends and I have friendships based on talking about our lives, our hopes, our troubles, our love of different things...lots of emotional intimacy, lots of knowing each other very, very well. If one of them talked about wanting to kill someone, I can say none of us would dismiss it as just normal talk. We'd be like, "You sound so angry, are you okay?" We'd talk about it what's upsetting the person. There's a lot of listening and conversing and talking that goes on.
I don't think I'd ever consider someone I spent just time with a best or close friend. There's an emotional intimacy and closeness and mutual trust and support based on talking and revealing yourselves to each other that I would say a lot of women require before designating someone a best friend or even a friend.
What do you do, swear blood oaths to each other before the Great Dark One after years of contemplation?
Not exactly , but you're pretty close. It's years of mutual love, care, bonding, respect, cultivation of deep trust, lots of support, stuff needed for feeling well. There's a lot of talking and thinking going on.
posted by discopolo at 12:08 PM on September 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
I won't speak for other ladies on what criteria they use to discern a best friend from a friend or an acquaintance but my best girlfriends and I have friendships based on talking about our lives, our hopes, our troubles, our love of different things...lots of emotional intimacy, lots of knowing each other very, very well. If one of them talked about wanting to kill someone, I can say none of us would dismiss it as just normal talk. We'd be like, "You sound so angry, are you okay?" We'd talk about it what's upsetting the person. There's a lot of listening and conversing and talking that goes on.
I don't think I'd ever consider someone I spent just time with a best or close friend. There's an emotional intimacy and closeness and mutual trust and support based on talking and revealing yourselves to each other that I would say a lot of women require before designating someone a best friend or even a friend.
What do you do, swear blood oaths to each other before the Great Dark One after years of contemplation?
Not exactly , but you're pretty close. It's years of mutual love, care, bonding, respect, cultivation of deep trust, lots of support, stuff needed for feeling well. There's a lot of talking and thinking going on.
posted by discopolo at 12:08 PM on September 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
lots of emotional intimacy,
In my experience most guys don't do "lots of emotional intimacy". " revealing yourselves to each other" and there's another "nope". #NotAllMen and all but emotional intimacy and revelation of your inner self aren't things most guys (again in my experience) are at all comfortable with. Unless we're drunk. Really drunk. And even then we pretend not to remember those deep emotional conversations the next day to spare each other any embarrassment.
posted by MikeMc at 12:19 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
In my experience most guys don't do "lots of emotional intimacy". " revealing yourselves to each other" and there's another "nope". #NotAllMen and all but emotional intimacy and revelation of your inner self aren't things most guys (again in my experience) are at all comfortable with. Unless we're drunk. Really drunk. And even then we pretend not to remember those deep emotional conversations the next day to spare each other any embarrassment.
posted by MikeMc at 12:19 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I read an NYMag article about the girls who stabbed the little girl in the Slenderman case, and I think they mentioned that the girls were living in the same low income housing. It did read differently, not poverty porn., but definitely emphasizing the economic backgrounds of the girls, in addition to implying that the girls were from among the poorest of Waukesha working class.
And now I'm noticing it more. Interesting. I'll have to reread it now.
posted by discopolo at 12:26 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
And now I'm noticing it more. Interesting. I'll have to reread it now.
posted by discopolo at 12:26 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
how primitive and psychopathic they are - why don't they get themselves together, go to college, get a house in the burbs, get into management and act like CIVILIZED psychopaths?
posted by pyramid termite at 12:31 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by pyramid termite at 12:31 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, of course you've heard it countless times because, as jayder notes above, there's a huge gulf between the number of people who talk shit and the number of people who actually ever act on it. This is just trivially true. For every "murderer's best friend" there millions of best friends of people who talked a lot of shit and then didn't do anything.
And our culture prizes/accepts shit-talk that involves a lot of aggression and violence, so said shit-talk doesn't seem any more likely to be actionable than someone rattling off all the kinds of cars they'd buy if they won the lotto. A lot of folks gawk from the outside at this and wonder "how do you not..." but they're all mostly focusing on things that would be huge red flags in their circles but aren't abnormal at all to these folks they don't recognize. Denigrating talk about race which would be a black swan for them but is just air for those groups. Statements that sound desperate to their ears, which are desperate but again is just something that people one paycheck from homelessness are just the thoughts of every other day.
They didn't find his actions noteworthy because they weren't.
posted by phearlez at 12:36 PM on September 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
And our culture prizes/accepts shit-talk that involves a lot of aggression and violence, so said shit-talk doesn't seem any more likely to be actionable than someone rattling off all the kinds of cars they'd buy if they won the lotto. A lot of folks gawk from the outside at this and wonder "how do you not..." but they're all mostly focusing on things that would be huge red flags in their circles but aren't abnormal at all to these folks they don't recognize. Denigrating talk about race which would be a black swan for them but is just air for those groups. Statements that sound desperate to their ears, which are desperate but again is just something that people one paycheck from homelessness are just the thoughts of every other day.
They didn't find his actions noteworthy because they weren't.
posted by phearlez at 12:36 PM on September 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
In my experience most guys don't do "lots of emotional intimacy". " revealing yourselves to each other" and there's another "nope". #NotAllMen and all but emotional intimacy and revelation of your inner self aren't things most guys (again in my experience) are at all comfortable with. Unless we're drunk. Really drunk. And even then we pretend not to remember those deep emotional conversations the next day to spare each other any embarrassment.
Yeah, that was kind of why I suspected Joey would have been readily dismissive of his "best friend's" mentions as just talk and not have been worried. He really didn't know his "best friend" except as someone who spent hours playing video games with and not having deep conversations with or even getting to know each other that well. Ordinarily when someone thinks a best friend, it's who knows you best. Call Joey Roof's best friend, then you'd think that guy probably knew Roof better than anyone and should have known Roof was serious.
posted by discopolo at 12:41 PM on September 15, 2015
Yeah, that was kind of why I suspected Joey would have been readily dismissive of his "best friend's" mentions as just talk and not have been worried. He really didn't know his "best friend" except as someone who spent hours playing video games with and not having deep conversations with or even getting to know each other that well. Ordinarily when someone thinks a best friend, it's who knows you best. Call Joey Roof's best friend, then you'd think that guy probably knew Roof better than anyone and should have known Roof was serious.
posted by discopolo at 12:41 PM on September 15, 2015
Call Joey Roof's best friend, then you'd think that guy probably knew Roof better than anyone and should have known Roof was serious.
Being someone's best friend doesn't mean having Minority Report levels of precognition with respect to thoughts, feelings, and traumas they my privately harbor. Especially if both friends are young men in the Deep South. And especially if they come from difficult circumstances.
posted by echocollate at 12:56 PM on September 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
Being someone's best friend doesn't mean having Minority Report levels of precognition with respect to thoughts, feelings, and traumas they my privately harbor. Especially if both friends are young men in the Deep South. And especially if they come from difficult circumstances.
posted by echocollate at 12:56 PM on September 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
"It's years of mutual love, care, bonding, respect, cultivation of deep trust, lots of support, stuff needed for feeling well. There's a lot of talking and thinking going on."
That sounds genuinely nightmarish.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:01 PM on September 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
That sounds genuinely nightmarish.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:01 PM on September 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
But then, I'm English.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:02 PM on September 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:02 PM on September 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
Being someone's best friend doesn't mean having Minority Report levels of precognition with respect to thoughts, feelings, and traumas they my privately harbor.
Apparently if you haven't merged with someone mind and soul so that you are a single being, you're not truly friends.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:06 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Apparently if you haven't merged with someone mind and soul so that you are a single being, you're not truly friends.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:06 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
discopolo, you keep harping on this "best friend" thing, but I can find nowhere in the article where Roof is described as Joey's "best friend" by anyone. The closes is a statement made by the mother, Kim, but it seems clear to me that she is saying that Joey was Roof's best (maybe only) friend, a condition that is not necessarily mutual. It seems obvious from the article that Joey considered him a friend, but a somewhat estranged one. Most people know people they would call friends mostly for lack of a better word, because they see and talk to them--or share more past history, as seems to be the case here--with them than the word acquaintance really conveys. It's also pretty unlikely that these folks would use the word "acquaintance" in conversation, casual or otherwise.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 1:14 PM on September 15, 2015
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 1:14 PM on September 15, 2015
Just the way you interpret "best friend" here seems pretty revealing of class differences. To you, "best friend" means "someone with whom I can share deep emotional intimacy," whereas to Kim I'll bet it means in this context "someone I can rely on for material aid (like a place to stay) when everyone else has told or would tell me to get fucked".
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 1:16 PM on September 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 1:16 PM on September 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
Porn is a curated, edited work designed to arouse the passion of a target audience, a work that concerns itself entirely with what people are doing moment to moment, with the understanding that the audience already thinks it knows why, is willing to look elsewhere to find out why, or doesn't care why.
AKA, "prose."
posted by octobersurprise at 1:16 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
AKA, "prose."
posted by octobersurprise at 1:16 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think the caption that goes with the image of the ashtray is a new meme in the making. First attempt: "Everyone who lives in the trailer smokes."
posted by tecg at 1:18 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tecg at 1:18 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Porn is in the depiction, not the content, and you don't have to be poor to recognize poverty porn-- actually that might work against you. Good thing we don't have to be pornstars in order to recognize porn.
I feel like this is a deliberate attempt to deflect or rewrite the definition of this word and it's really tremendously unhelpful. We all know what real porn is (at least, when we see it) and it's often demeaning, objectifying, mysogynist, degrading for its viewers and creators. It's fantastic in ways that distort our expectations of real people and how they act. When people talk about "real estate porn" or "poverty porn" or "hedge fund porn" or "copper drain spout porn" they are diluting the meaning and value of a word and its consequences. We all get why "roadster rear-spoiler porn" is witty but in this case I feel like we could do better by saying what we really mean.
posted by newdaddy at 1:26 PM on September 15, 2015
I feel like this is a deliberate attempt to deflect or rewrite the definition of this word and it's really tremendously unhelpful. We all know what real porn is (at least, when we see it) and it's often demeaning, objectifying, mysogynist, degrading for its viewers and creators. It's fantastic in ways that distort our expectations of real people and how they act. When people talk about "real estate porn" or "poverty porn" or "hedge fund porn" or "copper drain spout porn" they are diluting the meaning and value of a word and its consequences. We all get why "roadster rear-spoiler porn" is witty but in this case I feel like we could do better by saying what we really mean.
posted by newdaddy at 1:26 PM on September 15, 2015
Anyway, the answer to the question "What kind of people would do nothing?" is obvious: people who are nearly too desperate and too damaged to help themselves.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:27 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by octobersurprise at 1:27 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Apparently if you haven't merged with someone mind and soul so that you are a single being, you're not truly friends.
Sangermaine, I'm sorry to have upset you so much. It wasn't a personal attack on you. And sorry if the depth of many female friendships or emotional intimacy sounds nightmarish to you. Clearly you don't need it. No need to put down people who are enriched by and benefit from it.
I made those comments, because, as you can see above, I was trying to figure out why people held Joey responsible for being dismissive when he barely knew the guy, that the best friendship just meant two guys spending x hours together not really discussing anything that could have raised alarm. As someone else mentioned above, if the extent of talking between the two was limited to discussing video games and if aggressive/violent machismo bullshitting is normal for two friends, then it's pretty unfair to blame Joey for not being alarmed.
the focus on the poverty wasn't what I expected when I read the article.
That was my point, and I hope you'll stop disparaging female friendships based on emotional intimacy. It's classic misogyny, and I think you know better.
posted by discopolo at 1:29 PM on September 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
Sangermaine, I'm sorry to have upset you so much. It wasn't a personal attack on you. And sorry if the depth of many female friendships or emotional intimacy sounds nightmarish to you. Clearly you don't need it. No need to put down people who are enriched by and benefit from it.
I made those comments, because, as you can see above, I was trying to figure out why people held Joey responsible for being dismissive when he barely knew the guy, that the best friendship just meant two guys spending x hours together not really discussing anything that could have raised alarm. As someone else mentioned above, if the extent of talking between the two was limited to discussing video games and if aggressive/violent machismo bullshitting is normal for two friends, then it's pretty unfair to blame Joey for not being alarmed.
the focus on the poverty wasn't what I expected when I read the article.
That was my point, and I hope you'll stop disparaging female friendships based on emotional intimacy. It's classic misogyny, and I think you know better.
posted by discopolo at 1:29 PM on September 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
And sorry if the depth of many female friendships or emotional intimacy sounds nightmarish to you. Clearly you don't need it. No need to put down people who are enriched by and benefit from it.
That "nightmarish" comment wasn't mine.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:32 PM on September 15, 2015
That "nightmarish" comment wasn't mine.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:32 PM on September 15, 2015
Porn is in the depiction, not the content, and you don't have to be poor to recognize poverty porn
Well, y'all some of us would just describe that piece as "tendentious," maybe even "gratuitously tendentious," and leave "porn" for that stuff with the wakachika wakachika music.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:32 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, y'all some of us would just describe that piece as "tendentious," maybe even "gratuitously tendentious," and leave "porn" for that stuff with the wakachika wakachika music.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:32 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I gotta say, I'm a female with female friends, and I generally go by "people who I like talking to, hanging out with, and doing things with", not the sort of thing discopolo is describing. I'm not convinced that female friendships are categorically deeper than male friendships, and I suspect discopolo is somewhat of an outlier. You might have a very close friend or two who you have that sort of relationship with, but some of my friends I just like playing games with or watching tv with.
posted by tavella at 1:38 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by tavella at 1:38 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
There's a a massive downside to going the cops. Most likely they won't do anything. Most likely your friend won't actually do something. On the off chance that the authorities decide to do something they'll hit Roof with some type of charge and put him away for a little while. Then your drug using, gun owning, crazy ex-friend gets out and all he's thinking is that you betrayed him. Oh and also, Meek was on parole so the cops are very likely to mess with him on general principle.
So you need to be fairly certain that going to cops is worth the risks.
posted by rdr at 1:45 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
So you need to be fairly certain that going to cops is worth the risks.
posted by rdr at 1:45 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
would you find this article as a sodden heap of pages out in the woods? almost certainly not.
posted by indubitable at 1:48 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by indubitable at 1:48 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
Just the way you interpret "best friend" here seems pretty revealing of class differences. To you, "best friend" means "someone with whom I can share deep emotional intimacy," whereas to Kim I'll bet it means in this context "someone I can rely on for material aid (like a place to stay) when everyone else has told or would tell me to get fucked".
not different. It's based in trust and it is knowing that I have a person to call when things are going wrong and they'll be there, and that I would be there for them, too. It's not gabbing about our favorite sex positions and doing our nails or whatever you figured I meant. Finding someone you can trust/rely in times of material need is basic and fundamental to friendship. Friend whose boyfriend broke up with her suddenly, kicked her out without notice, her family is abroad and poor and she has no place to live and has to finish school---Kim is very relatable for a lot of women who have to rely on their friends when they can't rely on family or romantic partners. Simply because we're all women, and we know exactly how uniquely vulnerable we are to income and status loss. It's not a big secret that when marriages end, women end up less well off (even if MRAs want everyone to believe women equate having kids and getting divorce with a lifelong paycheck).
That's why having friends/people you can trust when things fall apart is important, for women in all economic classes. Especially when family isn't reliable or unable to be helpful.
posted by discopolo at 1:51 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
not different. It's based in trust and it is knowing that I have a person to call when things are going wrong and they'll be there, and that I would be there for them, too. It's not gabbing about our favorite sex positions and doing our nails or whatever you figured I meant. Finding someone you can trust/rely in times of material need is basic and fundamental to friendship. Friend whose boyfriend broke up with her suddenly, kicked her out without notice, her family is abroad and poor and she has no place to live and has to finish school---Kim is very relatable for a lot of women who have to rely on their friends when they can't rely on family or romantic partners. Simply because we're all women, and we know exactly how uniquely vulnerable we are to income and status loss. It's not a big secret that when marriages end, women end up less well off (even if MRAs want everyone to believe women equate having kids and getting divorce with a lifelong paycheck).
That's why having friends/people you can trust when things fall apart is important, for women in all economic classes. Especially when family isn't reliable or unable to be helpful.
posted by discopolo at 1:51 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
(I honestly didn't mean to make this a discussion about female friendship vs. male friendship or real friendship vs not real friendship in everyone's lives---I was taking about the article and about how Joey and Roof weren't very close, probably didn't know each other very well. Sangermaine snarked, and I replied to that, which I shouldn't have, because it upset some people for some reason.
it's kind of ridiculous since I just mentioned it in the first place to figure out the expectations people had for best friend Joey. Everything else seems beside the point, though something about discussing the variety of friendships is clearly making people really touchy and has very little to do with whether Joey could have discerned what Roof was going to do even if they were "best friends." It just seemed weird to me given the way of relating and socializing couldn't have given Joey pause, best friend spending x hours together or not.)
posted by discopolo at 2:16 PM on September 15, 2015
it's kind of ridiculous since I just mentioned it in the first place to figure out the expectations people had for best friend Joey. Everything else seems beside the point, though something about discussing the variety of friendships is clearly making people really touchy and has very little to do with whether Joey could have discerned what Roof was going to do even if they were "best friends." It just seemed weird to me given the way of relating and socializing couldn't have given Joey pause, best friend spending x hours together or not.)
posted by discopolo at 2:16 PM on September 15, 2015
And sorry if the depth of many female friendships or emotional intimacy sounds nightmarish to you.
That was pretty clearly a joke.
posted by jayder at 2:19 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
That was pretty clearly a joke.
posted by jayder at 2:19 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I didn't think the photos added much to the narrative except to help put a name to a face. The story didn't seem "porny", although I did wonder how much of it was creative nonfiction and how much of it was the author being present recording events.
I thought it was interesting because often with this sort of reporting there is the tendency to create a linear trajectory where by the end of the piece there is some resolution, be it good ("and they got help dealing with their problems") or bad ("they all went to jail"), but in this case nothing really changed.
The mother will continue to live her nightmarish life. The "children" will continue to use the trailer as a flophouse.
posted by Nevin at 2:39 PM on September 15, 2015
I thought it was interesting because often with this sort of reporting there is the tendency to create a linear trajectory where by the end of the piece there is some resolution, be it good ("and they got help dealing with their problems") or bad ("they all went to jail"), but in this case nothing really changed.
The mother will continue to live her nightmarish life. The "children" will continue to use the trailer as a flophouse.
posted by Nevin at 2:39 PM on September 15, 2015
But the level of trauma, poverty, neglect and ignorance here all contributed to the specific crime we're talking about.
Yes, but only in this particular instance. Dylann Roof could have come from anywhere, and did have fairly strong family ties - he lived with his father.
There are a lot of mass killings in the United States, and it's really difficult to figure out why they happen I think.
posted by Nevin at 2:42 PM on September 15, 2015
Yes, but only in this particular instance. Dylann Roof could have come from anywhere, and did have fairly strong family ties - he lived with his father.
There are a lot of mass killings in the United States, and it's really difficult to figure out why they happen I think.
posted by Nevin at 2:42 PM on September 15, 2015
There are a lot of mass killings in the United States, and it's really difficult to figure out why they happen I think.
The theories I've run into that seem to have some traction is a combination of depression, external locus of control, and psychopathy. The traits can reside in two people, but so far as I know it's rare for more than a pair unless you're in "single charismatic leader" territory where the leader rarely actually does the violent acts.
Access to weaponry is another big factor but is likely more correlational (allows people inclined to kill to do so and to kill more people) than causal (guns cause people to want to kill) - a similar relationship guns have to suicide, where one may attempt even without a gun, but the gun will make it more likely the attempt will be lethal.
My biases lead me to think that the disempowerment of people across the board as interchangeable cogs within a capitalistic society where wealth is equated with value as a human being is another huge aspect of this, but I don't have any concrete evidence for that. Note I'm specifically not saying this is a low-class issue - middle class people have a similar role in society even if their collars are white or pink instead of blue, and ironically white and pink collar people are less likely to be unionized, so they may actually be poorer even though people tend to assume they're a higher class than blue collar folks.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:54 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
The theories I've run into that seem to have some traction is a combination of depression, external locus of control, and psychopathy. The traits can reside in two people, but so far as I know it's rare for more than a pair unless you're in "single charismatic leader" territory where the leader rarely actually does the violent acts.
Access to weaponry is another big factor but is likely more correlational (allows people inclined to kill to do so and to kill more people) than causal (guns cause people to want to kill) - a similar relationship guns have to suicide, where one may attempt even without a gun, but the gun will make it more likely the attempt will be lethal.
My biases lead me to think that the disempowerment of people across the board as interchangeable cogs within a capitalistic society where wealth is equated with value as a human being is another huge aspect of this, but I don't have any concrete evidence for that. Note I'm specifically not saying this is a low-class issue - middle class people have a similar role in society even if their collars are white or pink instead of blue, and ironically white and pink collar people are less likely to be unionized, so they may actually be poorer even though people tend to assume they're a higher class than blue collar folks.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:54 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am a male with a number of male friendships just like those discopolo describes. I don't have family nearby and my friends are the closest thing I have, and we text like teenagers and gossip and bitch and vent, but we're in our 30s. I have people I'd consider "friends" for whom deep emotional intimacy is just not ever going to happen. These are very much still real friends; I don't like the word "acquaintance" because it describes a dichotomy or ranking, when in fact my friendship is a big gay spectrum. If hanging out and playing some video games is as far as we ever go, that's still quality time! Some people just need more open affection and TLC; personally I'm a huge emotional mess, so I need my boy- and girlfriends around me, and I need to take care of them too.
I am still in touch with my "hometown crew" with whom I had little in common beyond geographical proximity, and often people like this -- whether through lack of financial mobility or just by homesickness -- never leave where they came from, so your "local crew" is just the social hand you're dealt, permanently. Especially if you're poor, but also if you're socially awkward nerds who don't want to move to a new place.
That's a different kind of bond and can sometimes feel shallower to people who don't have experience with it, because there doesn't seem to be as much outwardly deep trust and connection. An open offer of material support is a show of real openness and care, even if it's not what some of us would consider a show of affection. But either way, when someone is sick and hiding it, it can be hard to divine their true motives, even if you thought you knew them extremely well. I've had some real shocks. Most of us have, right, even with close friends.
This article does feel really exploitative, though. Got family like this, and there's happy times mixed in with the bleakness, but that's more mundane and not as sexy to write about.
posted by jake at 2:58 PM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
I am still in touch with my "hometown crew" with whom I had little in common beyond geographical proximity, and often people like this -- whether through lack of financial mobility or just by homesickness -- never leave where they came from, so your "local crew" is just the social hand you're dealt, permanently. Especially if you're poor, but also if you're socially awkward nerds who don't want to move to a new place.
That's a different kind of bond and can sometimes feel shallower to people who don't have experience with it, because there doesn't seem to be as much outwardly deep trust and connection. An open offer of material support is a show of real openness and care, even if it's not what some of us would consider a show of affection. But either way, when someone is sick and hiding it, it can be hard to divine their true motives, even if you thought you knew them extremely well. I've had some real shocks. Most of us have, right, even with close friends.
This article does feel really exploitative, though. Got family like this, and there's happy times mixed in with the bleakness, but that's more mundane and not as sexy to write about.
posted by jake at 2:58 PM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
In some circles axiomatic is that you don't call the cops unless you want someone to get shot. So if you aren't sure someone is going to get shot, or no one is already critically injured, you don't call the cops because that's going to increase the likelihood of violence.
This is a mostly adaptive behavior for people living with or around mental illnesses, poverty and systematic racism.
If they start reporting every stupid trying-to-portray masculine chest thump about violence that's going to hurt their standing in their community and increase risk of being victimized themselves.
Doesn't sound like Roof told them concrete plans beyond that he was going to a church and that he was going to do something crazy (and as I read the article, seems like he said these two things separately in time.)
To me, there's no mystery in why they did what they did. It seems sensible for the setting and information they had.
Would be no surprise to me if the FBI tries to make them all out as criminally culpable, though.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 3:16 PM on September 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
This is a mostly adaptive behavior for people living with or around mental illnesses, poverty and systematic racism.
If they start reporting every stupid trying-to-portray masculine chest thump about violence that's going to hurt their standing in their community and increase risk of being victimized themselves.
Doesn't sound like Roof told them concrete plans beyond that he was going to a church and that he was going to do something crazy (and as I read the article, seems like he said these two things separately in time.)
To me, there's no mystery in why they did what they did. It seems sensible for the setting and information they had.
Would be no surprise to me if the FBI tries to make them all out as criminally culpable, though.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 3:16 PM on September 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
ironically white and pink collar people are less likely to be unionized, so they may actually be poorer even though people tend to assume they're a higher class than blue collar folks.
Class is linked to but not the same as income level.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:33 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Class is linked to but not the same as income level.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:33 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
In some circles axiomatic is that you don't call the cops unless you want someone to get shot.
Cite, please? Maybe you're just dishing out hyperbole, but I am a criminal defense attorney and pretty much everyone calls the police for stuff where they absolutely do not want anyone to get shot. I'm just wondering where you got that factoid of something so "axiomatic" ... what is your source, or your experience?
posted by jayder at 7:03 PM on September 15, 2015
Cite, please? Maybe you're just dishing out hyperbole, but I am a criminal defense attorney and pretty much everyone calls the police for stuff where they absolutely do not want anyone to get shot. I'm just wondering where you got that factoid of something so "axiomatic" ... what is your source, or your experience?
posted by jayder at 7:03 PM on September 15, 2015
A brown cigarette is rolled, lit and passed around.
“Joey!” Christon calls into the living room. “You’re stupid!”
Justin laughs and falls in and out of sleep. Gizmo stumbles to the mattress, drops and sleeps, and after a while, Christon says, “I have no sympathy for people. Nobody has any sympathy for me. I care for me and me only.”
He passes the cigarette to Justin, and Justin drops ashes in the bed, and in the chemical-smelling haze, Christon plays a country song on his phone.
Is the implication of this, with the chemicals and all the sleeping, that the cigarette is laced with something, or am I just overreading?
Also, while Daisy is definitely more beagle than bull terrier, there is another puppy in some of the pictures (Gracie) who has the classic pittie face.
posted by gingerest at 8:30 PM on September 15, 2015
“Joey!” Christon calls into the living room. “You’re stupid!”
Justin laughs and falls in and out of sleep. Gizmo stumbles to the mattress, drops and sleeps, and after a while, Christon says, “I have no sympathy for people. Nobody has any sympathy for me. I care for me and me only.”
He passes the cigarette to Justin, and Justin drops ashes in the bed, and in the chemical-smelling haze, Christon plays a country song on his phone.
Is the implication of this, with the chemicals and all the sleeping, that the cigarette is laced with something, or am I just overreading?
Also, while Daisy is definitely more beagle than bull terrier, there is another puppy in some of the pictures (Gracie) who has the classic pittie face.
posted by gingerest at 8:30 PM on September 15, 2015
In some circles axiomatic is that you don't call the cops unless you want someone to get shot.
Cite, please?
If I was in a group of primarily black people and something happened there's no way I would call the police. My assumption would be that at the very least someone would get assaulted - and likely an innocent or harmless person - and at very worst someone or several someones would get shot. I'm white, so I'd be safe, but I couldn't live with myself putting others through that sort of thing.
posted by Deoridhe at 9:14 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
Cite, please?
If I was in a group of primarily black people and something happened there's no way I would call the police. My assumption would be that at the very least someone would get assaulted - and likely an innocent or harmless person - and at very worst someone or several someones would get shot. I'm white, so I'd be safe, but I couldn't live with myself putting others through that sort of thing.
posted by Deoridhe at 9:14 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
Sorry jayder, I've got no cite but my experience on that one. I can think of several conversations with several people over the years on this theme. Might be something local to my social circles, I admit.
But really, I thought this was like an everyone with any sense who's living on the margins of legality or acceptability sort of thing. Like if life isn't already in serious peril why take the risk on bringing in armed agents of the state? Even then that only helps some types of life peril.
I've "called the cops" (in the sense of calling emergency services) not wanting per se for them to shoot a dude but accepting that might be what it takes for them to get that dude to stop doing what he was doing. It was a lame choice to make but it seemed like an OK tradeoff in that particular situation.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 10:25 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
But really, I thought this was like an everyone with any sense who's living on the margins of legality or acceptability sort of thing. Like if life isn't already in serious peril why take the risk on bringing in armed agents of the state? Even then that only helps some types of life peril.
I've "called the cops" (in the sense of calling emergency services) not wanting per se for them to shoot a dude but accepting that might be what it takes for them to get that dude to stop doing what he was doing. It was a lame choice to make but it seemed like an OK tradeoff in that particular situation.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 10:25 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
a combination of depression, external locus of control, and psychopathy
Deoridhe, what does "external locus of control" mean in this context? I googled but don't really understand the results I'm seeing.
posted by harriet vane at 2:33 AM on September 16, 2015
Deoridhe, what does "external locus of control" mean in this context? I googled but don't really understand the results I'm seeing.
posted by harriet vane at 2:33 AM on September 16, 2015
In some circles axiomatic is that you don't call the cops unless you want someone to get shot.
Cite, please?
Really? Okay. Or maybe this or this? There was an article I thought we discussed on the blue here written as a first-person about a writer who hung with Balmer kids who would run when the cops showed up. I don't think you need to stretch any of this too far to come to the conclusion that these same folks aren't calling cops in either. But you can also look at dozens of links that have been dropped in past mefi threads about police violence.
posted by phearlez at 7:03 AM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
Cite, please?
Really? Okay. Or maybe this or this? There was an article I thought we discussed on the blue here written as a first-person about a writer who hung with Balmer kids who would run when the cops showed up. I don't think you need to stretch any of this too far to come to the conclusion that these same folks aren't calling cops in either. But you can also look at dozens of links that have been dropped in past mefi threads about police violence.
posted by phearlez at 7:03 AM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
I grew up in a neighborhood where most people lived like this. Of course, we all considered ourselves a step up because while we might still be "white trash" we owned a house so we weren't "trailer trash". And this was in the north, in a major city (in a neighborhood made infamous by the American series Shameless) so we might act like "hicks" but we weren't really.
I knew a lot of people like Roof, even if I wasn't aware of it at the time.
And yeah, there's definitely a breathless "can you believe people live this?" air to the article.
posted by bgal81 at 7:37 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I knew a lot of people like Roof, even if I wasn't aware of it at the time.
And yeah, there's definitely a breathless "can you believe people live this?" air to the article.
posted by bgal81 at 7:37 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
We are all members of each other.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:37 AM on September 16, 2015
posted by Going To Maine at 7:37 AM on September 16, 2015
Deoridhe, what does "external locus of control" mean in this context? I googled but don't really understand the results I'm seeing.
It means that the person perceives their actions as being caused by forces outside of themselves - either a specific other person or the world in general. The contrast to this is an internal locus of control, where one has a sense of efficacy and control over ones environment, action, and choices. External locii of control are often taught in an authoritarian society, where children learn the authorities in their lives are all powerful and then either transfer that locus to a deity or in the form of a hatred of another group.
In the case of mass murder, usually the murderer(s) have identified an individual or group as a cause of their suffering/lack of choice/etc... and then lash out at them. Ironically, the Columbine murderers stand in contrast to this - their writings indicate that they wanted notoriety as terrorists but they were folded into a narrative about disenfranchised teenagers.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:10 AM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
It means that the person perceives their actions as being caused by forces outside of themselves - either a specific other person or the world in general. The contrast to this is an internal locus of control, where one has a sense of efficacy and control over ones environment, action, and choices. External locii of control are often taught in an authoritarian society, where children learn the authorities in their lives are all powerful and then either transfer that locus to a deity or in the form of a hatred of another group.
In the case of mass murder, usually the murderer(s) have identified an individual or group as a cause of their suffering/lack of choice/etc... and then lash out at them. Ironically, the Columbine murderers stand in contrast to this - their writings indicate that they wanted notoriety as terrorists but they were folded into a narrative about disenfranchised teenagers.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:10 AM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
That was pretty clearly a joke.
Strange, because I love comedy, and I have a great sense of humor, so I'm forced to ask the oft-repeated question: "How can it be a joke if it's not funny?" Mean-spirited sarcasm is not witty or humorous. It's a cheap shot. And it's not at all nice.
posted by discopolo at 9:00 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Strange, because I love comedy, and I have a great sense of humor, so I'm forced to ask the oft-repeated question: "How can it be a joke if it's not funny?" Mean-spirited sarcasm is not witty or humorous. It's a cheap shot. And it's not at all nice.
posted by discopolo at 9:00 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Thanks Deoridhe, that makes more sense than what I'd found.
posted by harriet vane at 2:18 AM on September 17, 2015
posted by harriet vane at 2:18 AM on September 17, 2015
Looks like Joey Meek has been arrested by the FBI for not reporting Roof's threats.
Actually looks like the charges against Meek aren't known yet.
posted by discopolo at 5:13 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Actually looks like the charges against Meek aren't known yet.
posted by discopolo at 5:13 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Meek pleads not guilty to charges of "lying when he told an investigator that 'he did not know specifics of Mr. Roof’s plan to shoot individuals on a Wednesday during Bible study at an A.M.E. church in Charleston, South Carolina.'"
posted by Arbac at 11:03 AM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Arbac at 11:03 AM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not surprised to hear about the Meek situation -- if out the gate he said "no! of course I didn't know he was going to do that!" -- then later it came to light that Roof had made some statement that he was going out there and might do something crazy and that Roof said this in a time or place this fellow is likely to've heard it that puts the feds solidly on the course to 18 U.S.C. § 1001 which is their goto punt charge.
Seeing as intent doesn't matter for 18 U.S.C. § 1001, whether he lied on purpose or simply didn't recall (but said "no" anyways) they've probably got him. Even if it didn't impact the investigation one way or another.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 6:21 PM on September 23, 2015
Seeing as intent doesn't matter for 18 U.S.C. § 1001, whether he lied on purpose or simply didn't recall (but said "no" anyways) they've probably got him. Even if it didn't impact the investigation one way or another.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 6:21 PM on September 23, 2015
Really? Okay . Or maybe this or this? There was an article I thought we discussed on the blue here written as a first-person about a writer who hung with Balmer kids who would run when the cops showed up.
Okay, so just as I suspected, you can provide nothing to back up your claim that something is axiomatic. God, it is so tiresome to read people making authoritative pronouncements that are not supported by anything.
posted by jayder at 8:51 PM on September 23, 2015
Okay, so just as I suspected, you can provide nothing to back up your claim that something is axiomatic. God, it is so tiresome to read people making authoritative pronouncements that are not supported by anything.
posted by jayder at 8:51 PM on September 23, 2015
ok, I see that phearlez was not the person who originally made the claim that I disputed, but is endeavoring to back up someone else's claim with sources that do not even slightly support the claim that I disputed.
posted by jayder at 9:00 PM on September 23, 2015
posted by jayder at 9:00 PM on September 23, 2015
Something's tiresome here but it's not what you think it is.
posted by phearlez at 7:31 AM on September 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 7:31 AM on September 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
ok, I see that phearlez was not the person who originally made the claim that I disputed, but is endeavoring to back up someone else's claim with sources that do not even slightly support the claim that I disputed.
Can you explain why you don’t think those articles address your claim? They seem to generally describe how some communities can be loathe to call the cops for fear of the consequences.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:22 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Can you explain why you don’t think those articles address your claim? They seem to generally describe how some communities can be loathe to call the cops for fear of the consequences.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:22 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
No, but you see, they don't prove that it's axiomatic that the poor and otherwise marginalized will never want to call the cops. Matt Oneiros's somewhat overly broad phrasing created an opportunity to redirect the discussion away from the fact that many people in these communities do with some measure of justification fear calling the police, and toward one user's perhaps hyperbolic statement that can't be proven without conducting our own scientific poll of people living in these communities.
What it boils down to is that jayder just wanted a chance to spike the ball, so let's just give him that.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:51 AM on September 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
What it boils down to is that jayder just wanted a chance to spike the ball, so let's just give him that.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:51 AM on September 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Honestly I see axiomatic as equivelant to "common sense" or "unspoken rule" and stand by my prior phrasing. An axiom being a starting place for reasoning, I don't know what precisely would constitute "proof" its an axiom in some circles for jayder.
Anyhow, I'm fairly certain however I expressed that sentiment jayder would take issue, so I'm not going to worry myself at all about how I could've maybe avoided ire through tighter phraseology.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 10:07 AM on September 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
Anyhow, I'm fairly certain however I expressed that sentiment jayder would take issue, so I'm not going to worry myself at all about how I could've maybe avoided ire through tighter phraseology.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 10:07 AM on September 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
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posted by Nevin at 9:26 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]