This place is 100% free of bees.
September 15, 2015 4:02 PM Subscribe
Definitely one for the RSS feed...
posted by jim in austin at 4:32 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jim in austin at 4:32 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
MOREMOREMORE
posted by erratic meatsack at 4:57 PM on September 15, 2015
posted by erratic meatsack at 4:57 PM on September 15, 2015
I must just be an old fart... I don't get it at all.
posted by MikeWarot at 5:04 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by MikeWarot at 5:04 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
there's a popular meme/joke/argument that women are lying liars who lie because we might wear makeup and/or bras. this is a joke about that. if you haven't seen the first one over and over and over again, you might miss the humor in this reaction.
posted by nadawi at 5:06 PM on September 15, 2015 [30 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 5:06 PM on September 15, 2015 [30 favorites]
I see these as very similar to Kate Beaton. So is Beaton now (already?) an influence/inspiration? Or might I criticize them for a lack of originality?
posted by lazycomputerkids at 5:09 PM on September 15, 2015
posted by lazycomputerkids at 5:09 PM on September 15, 2015
I see these as very similar to Kate Beaton. So is Beaton now (already?) an influence/inspiration? Or might I criticize them for a lack of originality?
Both or neither. There are ten billion comics out there you could see as similar to Kate Beaton, and ten billion that Kate Beaton could be seen as similar too. Just laugh at the funnies.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:16 PM on September 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
Both or neither. There are ten billion comics out there you could see as similar to Kate Beaton, and ten billion that Kate Beaton could be seen as similar too. Just laugh at the funnies.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:16 PM on September 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
So is Beaton now (already?) an influence/inspiration?
I don't think it takes more than an instant for a work to inspire another artist, so I'm a little confused by what you're asking.
posted by shakespeherian at 5:36 PM on September 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
I don't think it takes more than an instant for a work to inspire another artist, so I'm a little confused by what you're asking.
posted by shakespeherian at 5:36 PM on September 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
The octopus one is the best one. I think she's darker than Beaton in many ways, and has her own style.
But the makeup ones made me laugh too. I think the best is the two "friends" I wish that actually worked at bars.
posted by emjaybee at 5:48 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
But the makeup ones made me laugh too. I think the best is the two "friends" I wish that actually worked at bars.
posted by emjaybee at 5:48 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Other than a shared kind of minimalist-yet-very-expressive facial design, I don't see much similarity to Beaton, who has a cleaner line style and is more grounded/conventional with proportions and perspective. If I had to describe this only referring to other artists, I'd go with "Abby Howard after mainlining Ren and Stimpy", but even that is imperfect, because it's got its own stuff going on and lots of other potential influences you could point to.
posted by kagredon at 5:51 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by kagredon at 5:51 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
... after mainlining Ren and Stimpy
She's a story artist at Dreamworks and I was def picking up a absurdist-classic-animation sort of thing in there.
posted by griphus at 5:55 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
She's a story artist at Dreamworks and I was def picking up a absurdist-classic-animation sort of thing in there.
posted by griphus at 5:55 PM on September 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
I LOVE this
posted by triggerfinger at 6:18 PM on September 15, 2015
posted by triggerfinger at 6:18 PM on September 15, 2015
I don't think it takes more than an instant for a work to inspire another artist, so I'm a little confused by what you're asking.
I think I must be too. kagredon's specificity about technique and style forces me to acknowledge what I can't articulate about what is "very similar" and Going to Maine's urging to just enjoy them is a point well taken. Forgive my nonsense.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 6:20 PM on September 15, 2015
I think I must be too. kagredon's specificity about technique and style forces me to acknowledge what I can't articulate about what is "very similar" and Going to Maine's urging to just enjoy them is a point well taken. Forgive my nonsense.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 6:20 PM on September 15, 2015
speaking of the meme that inspires these - this just came down my timeline
"Women with makeup are liars"
Yes bc my lips r naturally purple & I have a raccoon eye deficiency & I was born w this pink shit on my cheek
posted by nadawi at 6:24 PM on September 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
"Women with makeup are liars"
Yes bc my lips r naturally purple & I have a raccoon eye deficiency & I was born w this pink shit on my cheek
posted by nadawi at 6:24 PM on September 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
God, this is cathartic. Even though it's almost two decades in the past, I will never forget the moment my college boyfriend, a man I adored, admired, loved, and respected, said to me in all seriousness one day as I got ready to go to an audition, "I'm glad you only wear makeup for work. When I see women with makeup on, I know they're just trying to fool me. You only try to fool other people."
It was a hell of a shock. I had never before come into contact with kind of weird misogyny, let alone in the shape of the person who shared my bathroom, you know?
posted by minervous at 6:53 PM on September 15, 2015 [39 favorites]
It was a hell of a shock. I had never before come into contact with kind of weird misogyny, let alone in the shape of the person who shared my bathroom, you know?
posted by minervous at 6:53 PM on September 15, 2015 [39 favorites]
Yes bc my lips r naturally purple & I have a raccoon eye deficiency & I was born w this pink shit on my cheek
Is she saying that Wiz Khalifa wears makeup and is therefor a hypocrite? (I am just barely aware that Wiz Khalifa exists, and in a quick Google image search he doesn't seem like he's all glammed up or anything.) Otherwise I don't get her point.
lazycomputerkids, I thought of Kate Beaton too. I wouldn't say it's a ripoff, but there is a similarity in the drawing and the style of humor.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:00 PM on September 15, 2015
Is she saying that Wiz Khalifa wears makeup and is therefor a hypocrite? (I am just barely aware that Wiz Khalifa exists, and in a quick Google image search he doesn't seem like he's all glammed up or anything.) Otherwise I don't get her point.
lazycomputerkids, I thought of Kate Beaton too. I wouldn't say it's a ripoff, but there is a similarity in the drawing and the style of humor.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:00 PM on September 15, 2015
jim in austin: "Definitely one for the RSS feed..."
What's a good reader any more (preferably Windows - Many fights with Grub have semi-reformed me)?
posted by Samizdata at 7:10 PM on September 15, 2015
What's a good reader any more (preferably Windows - Many fights with Grub have semi-reformed me)?
posted by Samizdata at 7:10 PM on September 15, 2015
this is so loopy
and yes I think it is a kindred spirit to Beaton's Straw Feminists but then also to everything done by Mallory Ortberg over at The Toast, too
posted by gusandrews at 7:14 PM on September 15, 2015
and yes I think it is a kindred spirit to Beaton's Straw Feminists but then also to everything done by Mallory Ortberg over at The Toast, too
posted by gusandrews at 7:14 PM on September 15, 2015
What's a good reader any more (preferably Windows - Many fights with Grub have semi-reformed me)?
I use the web-based The Old Reader, a reasonable facsimile of the dearly departed Google Reader...
posted by jim in austin at 7:16 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I use the web-based The Old Reader, a reasonable facsimile of the dearly departed Google Reader...
posted by jim in austin at 7:16 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is she saying that Wiz Khalifa wears makeup and is therefor a hypocrite? (I am just barely aware that Wiz Khalifa exists, and in a quick Google image search he doesn't seem like he's all glammed up or anything.) Otherwise I don't get her point.
I, too, am confused.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:24 PM on September 15, 2015
I, too, am confused.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:24 PM on September 15, 2015
Is she saying that Wiz Khalifa wears makeup and is therefor a hypocrite? (I am just barely aware that Wiz Khalifa exists, and in a quick Google image search he doesn't seem like he's all glammed up or anything.) Otherwise I don't get her point.
I took it as "Men who can't recognize that someone with purple lips and smokey-rimmed eyes and blush is fucking wearing makeup are idiots, rather than the women wearing such makeup being liars."
posted by jaguar at 7:26 PM on September 15, 2015 [36 favorites]
I took it as "Men who can't recognize that someone with purple lips and smokey-rimmed eyes and blush is fucking wearing makeup are idiots, rather than the women wearing such makeup being liars."
posted by jaguar at 7:26 PM on September 15, 2015 [36 favorites]
It's a sad fact that some women really do lie through makeup. I know this is a controversial statement but it's true. I mean, this girl's skin is actually perfectly alright and yet she's using makeup to lie! (NSFW/NSFL):
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uS9xhjX7xk4/maxresdefault.jpg
posted by I-baLL at 7:33 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uS9xhjX7xk4/maxresdefault.jpg
posted by I-baLL at 7:33 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is she saying that Wiz Khalifa wears makeup and is therefor a hypocrite? (I am just barely aware that Wiz Khalifa exists, and in a quick Google image search he doesn't seem like he's all glammed up or anything.) Otherwise I don't get her point.
I, too, am confused.
her twitter name is WlZKHALlFA (not wizkhalifa, the rapper). she posted a picture of herself in makeup and then answered the charge that she was lying by mocking those who could be "tricked" by the second picture. she's mocking the same thing these comics are mocking.
posted by nadawi at 8:05 PM on September 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
I, too, am confused.
her twitter name is WlZKHALlFA (not wizkhalifa, the rapper). she posted a picture of herself in makeup and then answered the charge that she was lying by mocking those who could be "tricked" by the second picture. she's mocking the same thing these comics are mocking.
posted by nadawi at 8:05 PM on September 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
Reminds me of Brad Neely. Specifically, and.
posted by unknowncommand at 8:31 PM on September 15, 2015
posted by unknowncommand at 8:31 PM on September 15, 2015
The apply apply action words floating above in that panel of the bees one made me lose it.
posted by chococat at 8:31 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by chococat at 8:31 PM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Even though it's almost two decades in the past, I will never forget the moment my college boyfriend, a man I adored, admired, loved, and respected, said to me in all seriousness one day as I got ready to go to an audition, "I'm glad you only wear makeup for work. When I see women with makeup on, I know they're just trying to fool me. You only try to fool other people."
Oh dog, I thought this was just a thing that the usual contingent of pathetic dudebro misogynists said on the internet under the cover of anonymity. Men say this to women, like, to their faces? How widespread is it?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:35 PM on September 15, 2015
Oh dog, I thought this was just a thing that the usual contingent of pathetic dudebro misogynists said on the internet under the cover of anonymity. Men say this to women, like, to their faces? How widespread is it?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:35 PM on September 15, 2015
Also I am lying when I cut my hair - really my hair is very very long but I have altered my body to make my hair short! Likewise when I trim my nails and brush my teeth - my real state is foul-breathed and curly-nailed. And women who get fluoride tooth treatment as children? Also lying liars who lie. And when I wear a hat - oh, don't get me started on the lying lies of hat-wearing. Also today I belted my pants below my natural waist.
posted by Frowner at 8:41 PM on September 15, 2015 [29 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 8:41 PM on September 15, 2015 [29 favorites]
And clothes! Lying liars who wear clothes and lie! How was I supposed to know that the guy I was talking to was wearing jeans and didn't actually have blue legs!?!?
posted by jaguar at 8:54 PM on September 15, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 8:54 PM on September 15, 2015 [11 favorites]
this is very wide spread - right up there with dudes not understanding the difference between "no makeup" and the "no makeup makeup look" - they also tell us if we're wearing too much or not enough or the wrong kind (even though they mostly can't tell the difference between base and concealer or eye liner and lip liner). they tell us what they think about "too much makeup" and how much they love "no makeup" but when you wear no makeup they tell you that you look ill and maybe you should go home and take a nap. in between all this they find some way to extrapolate on their feelings about appropriate footwear and pants. and then to top it all off they usually complain about having to wear a clean collared shir because fashion is just vapid people putting their choices on you.
posted by nadawi at 8:55 PM on September 15, 2015 [63 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:55 PM on September 15, 2015 [63 favorites]
Also, Schumer: Girl, you don't need makeup.
posted by amanda at 9:33 PM on September 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by amanda at 9:33 PM on September 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
Some of them also like to tell me how much they dislike women with tattoos.
BUT I GOT THEM JUST TO IMPRESS YOU, DUDE I DO NOT EVEN KNOW *single tear*
Also, I do not know how a cat wearing pasties fits into this discussion, but ...
HOWLING
posted by louche mustachio at 10:16 PM on September 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
BUT I GOT THEM JUST TO IMPRESS YOU, DUDE I DO NOT EVEN KNOW *single tear*
Also, I do not know how a cat wearing pasties fits into this discussion, but ...
HOWLING
posted by louche mustachio at 10:16 PM on September 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
her twitter name is WlZKHALlFA (not wizkhalifa, the rapper)
Isn't her Twitter name GOTH LORD? I thought she was using the name GOTH LORD, and she was tweeting @Wizkhalifa in response to something he said about how women wearing makeup are liars. But it seems she's actually using the name @Wizkhalifa and also somehow using the name GOTH LORD, and her comment had nothing to do with the rapper but was instead a comeback at somebody else who was looking at a picture of her wearing makeup and saying that made her a liar. I think.
I don't know much about Twitter or the various Wizkhalifas. I do know a fair amount about goth, but it doesn't seem to be helping me crack the code here. Ah, well.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:57 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Isn't her Twitter name GOTH LORD? I thought she was using the name GOTH LORD, and she was tweeting @Wizkhalifa in response to something he said about how women wearing makeup are liars. But it seems she's actually using the name @Wizkhalifa and also somehow using the name GOTH LORD, and her comment had nothing to do with the rapper but was instead a comeback at somebody else who was looking at a picture of her wearing makeup and saying that made her a liar. I think.
I don't know much about Twitter or the various Wizkhalifas. I do know a fair amount about goth, but it doesn't seem to be helping me crack the code here. Ah, well.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:57 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
this is very wide spread - right up there with dudes not understanding the difference between "no makeup" and the "no makeup makeup look" - they also tell us if we're wearing too much or not enough or the wrong kind (even though they mostly can't tell the difference between base and concealer or eye liner and lip liner). they tell us what they think about "too much makeup" and how much they love "no makeup" but when you wear no makeup they tell you that you look ill and maybe you should go home and take a nap.
Some of them also like to tell me how much they dislike women with tattoos.
Lol I call it the "Waaaaah I'm very scared women don't care enough about my opinion or making my dick hard so I'm going to be a rude jackass" routine. The panic some heterosexual men feel when confronted by the fact that women aren't using makeup or dressing cute for them--they freak out
posted by discopolo at 1:59 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Some of them also like to tell me how much they dislike women with tattoos.
Lol I call it the "Waaaaah I'm very scared women don't care enough about my opinion or making my dick hard so I'm going to be a rude jackass" routine. The panic some heterosexual men feel when confronted by the fact that women aren't using makeup or dressing cute for them--they freak out
posted by discopolo at 1:59 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm using makeup and dressing cute for ME.
posted by louche mustachio at 2:45 AM on September 16, 2015
posted by louche mustachio at 2:45 AM on September 16, 2015
*preens*
posted by louche mustachio at 2:46 AM on September 16, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by louche mustachio at 2:46 AM on September 16, 2015 [11 favorites]
there's a popular meme/joke/argument that women are lying liars who lie because we might wear makeup and/or bras. this is a joke about that. if you haven't seen the first one over and over and over again, you might miss the humor in this reaction.
As a teenager I remember I remember a few instances of deception of a more embarrassing kind: I would flat out fail to recognize a girl when she appeared with makeup on. Not never having been subjected to the meme you mention I assumed this was the joke. Just on me, I guess
posted by rongorongo at 3:34 AM on September 16, 2015
As a teenager I remember I remember a few instances of deception of a more embarrassing kind: I would flat out fail to recognize a girl when she appeared with makeup on. Not never having been subjected to the meme you mention I assumed this was the joke. Just on me, I guess
posted by rongorongo at 3:34 AM on September 16, 2015
Seriously there are guys who believe that makeup is a form of lying? Huh. What kind of American puritanical dumbshit literal mindedness is necessary to warp you into believing that?
I thought the comics were great.
posted by ardgedee at 5:18 AM on September 16, 2015
I thought the comics were great.
posted by ardgedee at 5:18 AM on September 16, 2015
Isn't her Twitter name GOTH LORD? I thought she was using the name GOTH LORD, and she was tweeting @Wizkhalifa in response to something he said about how women wearing makeup are liars. But it seems she's actually using the name @Wizkhalifa and also somehow using the name GOTH LORD, and her comment had nothing to do with the rapper but was instead a comeback at somebody else who was looking at a picture of her wearing makeup and saying that made her a liar. I think.
Yep, the last bit is right - Twitter now allows you to have basically two names - you can think of what appears after "@" as her username and the GOTH LORD part as her screen name. If you see "@NAME" in the body of the tweet, that means that the person is tweeting at someone else.
posted by lunasol at 5:22 AM on September 16, 2015
Yep, the last bit is right - Twitter now allows you to have basically two names - you can think of what appears after "@" as her username and the GOTH LORD part as her screen name. If you see "@NAME" in the body of the tweet, that means that the person is tweeting at someone else.
posted by lunasol at 5:22 AM on September 16, 2015
Is it cool if I'm the guy who's like, if you ask me then I will say I like it when women wear some makeup sometimes but not too much and mostly it's about if it fits you and you like it, really, but like, that's only if the woman I'm married to asks me and even then it's like, you don't have to do something just 'cause I like it and if I'm not married to you like I may have opinions but I'm not going to necessarily share them unless you really want to know 'cause it's none of my business what makeup you use or what you wear and furthermore I don't think anyone is lying just because they're wearing makeup, that's fucking stupid.
These comics are hilarious btw.
posted by dubitable at 5:22 AM on September 16, 2015
These comics are hilarious btw.
posted by dubitable at 5:22 AM on September 16, 2015
I've never heard of the (makeup == lying) thing but I'm guess that I'm not surprised.
posted by octothorpe at 6:42 AM on September 16, 2015
posted by octothorpe at 6:42 AM on September 16, 2015
With the cat/pasties comic, while the first part is funny, it's the combination of the pasty routine with the pasties-as-hovercraft exit that render it genius. Also the cat's expression.
On the make-up front: when I was younger and wore make-up, foundation was not fashionable for young women, and eye make-up was secondary to a really dark lip (yes, the nineties! I had this great Shiseido blood-purple that they don't make anymore). So I have definitely been "fooled" by make-up today, since young women wear foundation much more often (foundations are also better than in the nineties, I hear) and there's a lot more emphasis on make-up to enlarge the eye. I really did, until recently, semi-consciously assume that my eyes were freakishly small because I saw so many young women who appeared to have very large eyes. I think it's very possible to be "fooled" by make-up if you don't know how to apply it, even if you're not looking at make-up from a dudebro "your appearance is about me and you must give me all the data I want so that I can decide if you're fuckable enough or not".
I mean, it has nothing to do with anyone lying, but it is certainly possible to have no political objection to make-up but to get confused about how it relates to the average human face. Obviously, it is totally not relevant if any individual has big or small eyes - for example - but it does make me laugh when I think about how sure I was that makeup couldn't make people's eyes look that big if they weren't big, and therefore my eyes must be tiny.
posted by Frowner at 6:49 AM on September 16, 2015
On the make-up front: when I was younger and wore make-up, foundation was not fashionable for young women, and eye make-up was secondary to a really dark lip (yes, the nineties! I had this great Shiseido blood-purple that they don't make anymore). So I have definitely been "fooled" by make-up today, since young women wear foundation much more often (foundations are also better than in the nineties, I hear) and there's a lot more emphasis on make-up to enlarge the eye. I really did, until recently, semi-consciously assume that my eyes were freakishly small because I saw so many young women who appeared to have very large eyes. I think it's very possible to be "fooled" by make-up if you don't know how to apply it, even if you're not looking at make-up from a dudebro "your appearance is about me and you must give me all the data I want so that I can decide if you're fuckable enough or not".
I mean, it has nothing to do with anyone lying, but it is certainly possible to have no political objection to make-up but to get confused about how it relates to the average human face. Obviously, it is totally not relevant if any individual has big or small eyes - for example - but it does make me laugh when I think about how sure I was that makeup couldn't make people's eyes look that big if they weren't big, and therefore my eyes must be tiny.
posted by Frowner at 6:49 AM on September 16, 2015
It's sad that there is a need to even comment on the "makeup is lying" meme, but these comics are funny, so everything even, right? RIGHT?
posted by trif at 6:52 AM on September 16, 2015
posted by trif at 6:52 AM on September 16, 2015
You deserve your trust issues if you dont realise...
posted by Ness at 7:52 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Ness at 7:52 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I have definitely been fooled into thinking not as many people have mild rosacea that I regularly cover up with foundation. It's TERRIBLE.
At the same time, it ends up being a bit exciting when you realize that other people have the same issue that you do (or the same size eyes...) and it's just the make-up, etc. I too have mild rosacea and, again, always assumed that I was alone in my roseaceaness because so many women wear foundation and cover it. I do end up worrying a bit because the norm is that women (or people who are read as women) wear make-up, and I think to myself "now that I'm not twenty-five anymore, what if I'm competing for jobs with women who wear make-up and are good at make-up and as a result I look like a diseased and malformed lump because I'm not wearing make-up or because I apply it rarely and don't have the skills?" I don't want to wear make-up - I'm a chronic face-toucher, I don't identify as a woman and wearing make-up just helps people misread me and Things On My Face have always bothered me even as a child wearing Halloween make-up, but then I worry that maybe as I get older I'll have to start wearing it so that I look "normal" for my age, and I don't know what to do about that (other than actually start testosterone so that I can be read as a man, which would solve that problem but I'm not sure I'm at that point yet).
I don't know what the solution to that one is - probably "try to stay in my current pink collar gig for another few decades or until the world collapses into a fiery global-warming hell-pit, whichever comes first".
posted by Frowner at 7:52 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
At the same time, it ends up being a bit exciting when you realize that other people have the same issue that you do (or the same size eyes...) and it's just the make-up, etc. I too have mild rosacea and, again, always assumed that I was alone in my roseaceaness because so many women wear foundation and cover it. I do end up worrying a bit because the norm is that women (or people who are read as women) wear make-up, and I think to myself "now that I'm not twenty-five anymore, what if I'm competing for jobs with women who wear make-up and are good at make-up and as a result I look like a diseased and malformed lump because I'm not wearing make-up or because I apply it rarely and don't have the skills?" I don't want to wear make-up - I'm a chronic face-toucher, I don't identify as a woman and wearing make-up just helps people misread me and Things On My Face have always bothered me even as a child wearing Halloween make-up, but then I worry that maybe as I get older I'll have to start wearing it so that I look "normal" for my age, and I don't know what to do about that (other than actually start testosterone so that I can be read as a man, which would solve that problem but I'm not sure I'm at that point yet).
I don't know what the solution to that one is - probably "try to stay in my current pink collar gig for another few decades or until the world collapses into a fiery global-warming hell-pit, whichever comes first".
posted by Frowner at 7:52 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Men say this to women, like, to their faces? How widespread is it?
posted by octobersurprise at 8:24 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
"I have heard of your paintings well enough.More to point of how widespread is it now, I have no idea. But this is the season of Donald Trump leading the polls simply by promising to "win bigly" so I'm prepared to believe almost anything about my fellow man.
God hath given you one face, and you make yourselves another.
You jig and amble, and you nickname God’s creatures
and make your wantonness your ignorance.
Go to, I’ll no more on ’t. It hath made me mad."
— Hamlet, 3.1.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:24 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
More to point of how widespread is it now, I have no idea. But this is the season of Donald Trump leading the polls simply by promising to "win bigly" so I'm prepared to believe almost anything about my fellow man.
TRUMP 2016: Embiggen America!
posted by Going To Maine at 8:49 AM on September 16, 2015
TRUMP 2016: Embiggen America!
posted by Going To Maine at 8:49 AM on September 16, 2015
I liked Win Bigly when he was hosting Family Feud in the late 70s.
posted by griphus at 9:01 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by griphus at 9:01 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I too have mild rosacea and, again, always assumed that I was alone in my roseaceaness because so many women wear foundation and cover it.
I had a funny-not-funny interaction a few weeks ago with a coworker who asked, in the middle of a group of us, why my nose was so red. "I have a skin condition and I'm not wearing makeup today." "Ohhhh. I'm so sorry!"
I have no problem telling people about this or acknowledging whether I'm wearing makeup or not (I make a point of not hiding work I put into performing femininity) but I dunno how the hell you get to be the age that coworker is and haven't figured out that skin looks different depending on what variety of spackle is covering it. Or haven't figured out that a lot of people would consider it rude to point that out.
posted by asperity at 9:16 AM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
I had a funny-not-funny interaction a few weeks ago with a coworker who asked, in the middle of a group of us, why my nose was so red. "I have a skin condition and I'm not wearing makeup today." "Ohhhh. I'm so sorry!"
I have no problem telling people about this or acknowledging whether I'm wearing makeup or not (I make a point of not hiding work I put into performing femininity) but I dunno how the hell you get to be the age that coworker is and haven't figured out that skin looks different depending on what variety of spackle is covering it. Or haven't figured out that a lot of people would consider it rude to point that out.
posted by asperity at 9:16 AM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
I dunno how the hell you get to be the age that coworker is and haven't figured out that skin looks different depending on what variety of spackle is covering it.
I think you underestimate how little most dudes know about makeup.
Or haven't figured out that a lot of people would consider it rude to point that out.
Well this, I can’t mansplain.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:20 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you underestimate how little most dudes know about makeup.
Or haven't figured out that a lot of people would consider it rude to point that out.
Well this, I can’t mansplain.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:20 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
This puts me in mind of the cool girl speech from Gone Girl. Look pretty and perfect without putting any effort into it, your effort is a lie. Eat like a teenage athlete because you somehow can eat and never gain weight without ever going to the gym, dieting and trying not to over-indulge is unattractive. Be the blow job champion of the universe without ever having had a past lover.
These are descriptions of people that can't exist.
posted by Belle O'Cosity at 9:59 AM on September 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
These are descriptions of people that can't exist.
posted by Belle O'Cosity at 9:59 AM on September 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
"I have heard of your paintings well enough.
God hath given you one face, and you make yourselves another.
You jig and amble, and you nickname God’s creatures
and make your wantonness your ignorance.
Go to, I’ll no more on ’t. It hath made me mad."
my favorite thing was the girl in my HS english class who responded to this line with "pff, whatever, son, everything hath made you mad."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:38 AM on September 16, 2015 [26 favorites]
God hath given you one face, and you make yourselves another.
You jig and amble, and you nickname God’s creatures
and make your wantonness your ignorance.
Go to, I’ll no more on ’t. It hath made me mad."
my favorite thing was the girl in my HS english class who responded to this line with "pff, whatever, son, everything hath made you mad."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:38 AM on September 16, 2015 [26 favorites]
I cannot find the citation now, but apparently there was a law on the books in 16th/17th century England prohibiting women from duping men into marrying them by wearing makeup, wigs, and alluring clothing. So misogynist men bawwing about Lying Women And Their False Advertising is nothing new.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:03 PM on September 16, 2015
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:03 PM on September 16, 2015
Ooh, good topic. I enjoyed the comics a lot. However, I think there's also room to step back and ask why many women (and hell, some men and non-binary folks too) feel a need to wear makeup as well as wearing it for themselves. I mean, yes, we do it for ourselves. I do it for myself. It's a thing I want to do, and I wouldn't question another person's motivation for doing so.
But in my case if I dig down, it's not all self-expression. For a long time I refused to wear any makeup at all, and there was probably some internalized misogyny and tech-nerd culture that seeped in and made me think all things feminine were bad. Except, in the end, I did want to be like other girls, and while I'm decent-looking, I didn't know why everyone else looked more attractive in photos than I did when I'd flip through Facebook. Like witchen and Frowner, I thought for a while it was just that others were naturally prettier. Eventually I knew it was makeup but then it became that these women can perform womanhood better than I can (before I got enough practice doing it myself), so I might as well not bother since being a tomboy is my "thing" anyway.
But so many women do it, game theory says it's better to participate in it than not if my goal is to be more conventionally attractive, so I started wearing it. I wear some makeup most days, which includes concealer, mascara, blush, eyebrow powder, and usually eyeshadow. Part of it is enjoyment of the ritual and participating in this thing that I always thought wasn't for me, but feels like actually accepting my femininity as opposed to being reactionary for the sake of it. And yes, I also like the way I look better when I do wear makeup and think it makes me more photogenic, though if it ever got to the point where I didn't want to go out without it I would have to rethink things (granted, I don't suffer from any extreme redness or really bad acne).
But it is strange that it's fine for men to have blond eyelashes and eyebrows, uneven skin texture, redness, and so on and nobody makes comments or thinks of them as less manly. But women need to be more polished-looking or even have perfect skin and big eyes and visible eyelashes in order to meet conventional standards of attractiveness. I don't blame the individuals for making the choice to use makeup, but we should interrogate why we perceive a bare-faced woman as "tired" or "sick" and why so many women feel like they have to "put their face on" before they feel ready to tackle the day. Fuck those guys who think wearing makeup is "lying." It can be a lot of things, but purposeful cackling deceit to try to get a man or whatever is not at all part of the equation.
posted by j.r at 2:01 PM on September 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
But in my case if I dig down, it's not all self-expression. For a long time I refused to wear any makeup at all, and there was probably some internalized misogyny and tech-nerd culture that seeped in and made me think all things feminine were bad. Except, in the end, I did want to be like other girls, and while I'm decent-looking, I didn't know why everyone else looked more attractive in photos than I did when I'd flip through Facebook. Like witchen and Frowner, I thought for a while it was just that others were naturally prettier. Eventually I knew it was makeup but then it became that these women can perform womanhood better than I can (before I got enough practice doing it myself), so I might as well not bother since being a tomboy is my "thing" anyway.
But so many women do it, game theory says it's better to participate in it than not if my goal is to be more conventionally attractive, so I started wearing it. I wear some makeup most days, which includes concealer, mascara, blush, eyebrow powder, and usually eyeshadow. Part of it is enjoyment of the ritual and participating in this thing that I always thought wasn't for me, but feels like actually accepting my femininity as opposed to being reactionary for the sake of it. And yes, I also like the way I look better when I do wear makeup and think it makes me more photogenic, though if it ever got to the point where I didn't want to go out without it I would have to rethink things (granted, I don't suffer from any extreme redness or really bad acne).
But it is strange that it's fine for men to have blond eyelashes and eyebrows, uneven skin texture, redness, and so on and nobody makes comments or thinks of them as less manly. But women need to be more polished-looking or even have perfect skin and big eyes and visible eyelashes in order to meet conventional standards of attractiveness. I don't blame the individuals for making the choice to use makeup, but we should interrogate why we perceive a bare-faced woman as "tired" or "sick" and why so many women feel like they have to "put their face on" before they feel ready to tackle the day. Fuck those guys who think wearing makeup is "lying." It can be a lot of things, but purposeful cackling deceit to try to get a man or whatever is not at all part of the equation.
posted by j.r at 2:01 PM on September 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
we should interrogate why we perceive a bare-faced woman as "tired" or "sick" and why so many women feel like they have to "put their face on" before they feel ready to tackle the day
My whole purpose in wearing makeup is to keep from looking sick and tired because of chronic illness. Yes, I am lying to you--I'm suggesting that my health is better than it is--and it's none of your fucking business!
posted by immlass at 2:07 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
My whole purpose in wearing makeup is to keep from looking sick and tired because of chronic illness. Yes, I am lying to you--I'm suggesting that my health is better than it is--and it's none of your fucking business!
posted by immlass at 2:07 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Rosie M. Banks, was it the Harvard Lipstick Paper?
p 12
posted by peripathetic at 2:19 PM on September 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
p 12
Although Parliament’s efforts at ridding the public of lipstick failed in the short term, England did veer away from lipstick in the long run. By the 1700s, wearing lipstick had returned to a surreptitious practice in England, due both to social and to legal penalties. While French ladies wore blatant makeup and scorned the natural look as only for prostitutes, in England nearly opposite norms arose. London prostitutes wore vivid makeup, while young ladies wore almost none, increasing lip rouge usage only upon aging. The older ladies who did wear lip rouge often prepared it themselves – some of the better homes had “still rooms” intended for this purpose – from family or popular recipes. [...] Rather than merely discouraging lip rouge through taxation, as done to hair powder, Parliament declared that women who seduced men into matrimony through use of lip and cheek paints could have their marriages annulled as well as face witchcraft charges. Specifically, the legislation declared:Basically, men are weak and gullible and need to be protected from lipstick. I have always taken great pleasure in my morning makeup routine, but this paper just made it extra satisfying.
All women of whatever age, rank, profession or degree, whether virgins, maids or widows, that shall, from and after such Act, impose upon, seduce and betray into matrimony any of His Majesty’s subjects, by the scents, paints, cosmetic washes, artificial teeth, false hair, Spanish wool, iron stays, hoops, high-heeled shoes or bolstered hips, shall incur the penalty of the law in force against witchcraft and the like misdemeanours and [their] marriage[s], upon conviction, shall become null and void.
posted by peripathetic at 2:19 PM on September 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
Thanks, Peripathetic, that's it! I'm very glad to live in a time and place where douchey guys can whine about women wearing makeup, but they can't pass laws against it or have me arrested for wearing it.
I wonder how many women were actually arrested and prosecuted under that law? It could have been used as a loophole, as well - a man who didn't want to be married anymore for Reasons might just claim he was brainwashed into matrimony by her lipstick.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 3:00 PM on September 16, 2015
I wonder how many women were actually arrested and prosecuted under that law? It could have been used as a loophole, as well - a man who didn't want to be married anymore for Reasons might just claim he was brainwashed into matrimony by her lipstick.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 3:00 PM on September 16, 2015
If a guy says a woman wearing makeup is a liar, he's being a tool. If a guy says he thinks women don't need makeup, it gets more complicated.
A lot of the guys who say this stuff genuinely think they're being feminist . They think women have been fooled into wearing a lot of junk on their faces for the sake of men, and that by saying they prefer women without makeup they're doing their part to let women know they don't have to wear makeup to be beautiful. Some of these guys are probably just saying that because they think it makes them look sensitive, not understanding that it makes them look obnoxious instead. Others sincerely believe it, but they're not quite understanding how feminism works. They're being obnoxious, but it is coming from a relatively well-meaning place. They're trying to do what they think feminists want and they're trying to help, but they're botching it and only making things worse.
So often in these debates, it seems like people are just making fun of each other or screaming at each other instead of trying to make any real progress at all. A guy who says women don't need makeup might be taking fumbling steps toward a larger understanding, and going straight for insults and LOLMENS (as so often happens) isn't going to help anybody. It can be a pain in the ass to try and talk this stuff out with people, but making fun of them for not quite getting it right as shitty and will only stall real progress.
To be clear, I'm not taking shots at these comics. Guys who say women are "liars" for wearing makeup really are being awful, and deserve the mockery. I was responding to some of the comments in this thread, and attitudes I've seen a lot online. I feel like you have to know your real enemies, and if somebody is trying to be your ally but they're botching it, give them points for trying and make an effort to explain how they were close but didn't quite get there.
(For context, I say all this as somebody who wears makeup and loves it while being aware that the pressure on women to wear it is incredibly unfair. Makeup is both liberating and oppressive. I also say it as a trans person who has very little patience for people who jump down the throats of well-meaning cis people who sometimes get pronouns wrong or use "transvestite" when they should use "transgender". Intention is what matters in these situations. If somebody has the right intentions, respect that and do what you can to help them shake off their bad cultural cruft.)
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:27 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
A lot of the guys who say this stuff genuinely think they're being feminist . They think women have been fooled into wearing a lot of junk on their faces for the sake of men, and that by saying they prefer women without makeup they're doing their part to let women know they don't have to wear makeup to be beautiful. Some of these guys are probably just saying that because they think it makes them look sensitive, not understanding that it makes them look obnoxious instead. Others sincerely believe it, but they're not quite understanding how feminism works. They're being obnoxious, but it is coming from a relatively well-meaning place. They're trying to do what they think feminists want and they're trying to help, but they're botching it and only making things worse.
So often in these debates, it seems like people are just making fun of each other or screaming at each other instead of trying to make any real progress at all. A guy who says women don't need makeup might be taking fumbling steps toward a larger understanding, and going straight for insults and LOLMENS (as so often happens) isn't going to help anybody. It can be a pain in the ass to try and talk this stuff out with people, but making fun of them for not quite getting it right as shitty and will only stall real progress.
To be clear, I'm not taking shots at these comics. Guys who say women are "liars" for wearing makeup really are being awful, and deserve the mockery. I was responding to some of the comments in this thread, and attitudes I've seen a lot online. I feel like you have to know your real enemies, and if somebody is trying to be your ally but they're botching it, give them points for trying and make an effort to explain how they were close but didn't quite get there.
(For context, I say all this as somebody who wears makeup and loves it while being aware that the pressure on women to wear it is incredibly unfair. Makeup is both liberating and oppressive. I also say it as a trans person who has very little patience for people who jump down the throats of well-meaning cis people who sometimes get pronouns wrong or use "transvestite" when they should use "transgender". Intention is what matters in these situations. If somebody has the right intentions, respect that and do what you can to help them shake off their bad cultural cruft.)
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:27 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ness: "You deserve your trust issues if you dont realise..."
But she's still wearing some makeup in the left-hand picture, just not as much. And the comments are full of people saying how great she looks "without" makeup.
posted by RobotHero at 8:49 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
But she's still wearing some makeup in the left-hand picture, just not as much. And the comments are full of people saying how great she looks "without" makeup.
posted by RobotHero at 8:49 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
A lot of the guys who say this stuff genuinely think they're being feminist . They think women have been fooled into wearing a lot of junk on their faces for the sake of men, and that by saying they prefer women without makeup they're doing their part to let women know they don't have to wear makeup to be beautiful.
And a lot of those guys think that they like women without makeup but actually like women who are wearing less makeup than the amount of makeup they recognize as "wearing makeup." Which is why their protestations are suspect.
posted by jaguar at 8:56 PM on September 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
I love tumblr for (and not limited to) the following gems:
"when women wear makeup they're basically lying to us" i dont see why i'm being blamed for a man stupid enough to think i have gold eyelids."
why do guys think girls wear makeup for them do u honestly think i spent $20 on a blush to make ur dick hard calm down
(Dudes really know how to dig their own graves when trying to "get" To women like them, lol. It's pitiful. And also good. We women live in a fortunate age, to be able to share enough info w/each otherto know which guys are wastes of time/hilarious brunch talk)
posted by discopolo at 1:23 AM on September 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
"when women wear makeup they're basically lying to us" i dont see why i'm being blamed for a man stupid enough to think i have gold eyelids."
why do guys think girls wear makeup for them do u honestly think i spent $20 on a blush to make ur dick hard calm down
(Dudes really know how to dig their own graves when trying to "get" To women like them, lol. It's pitiful. And also good. We women live in a fortunate age, to be able to share enough info w/each otherto know which guys are wastes of time/hilarious brunch talk)
posted by discopolo at 1:23 AM on September 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
Also, there's no bigger and more rewarding compliment for this heterosexual lady than to have any of my best girlfriends tell me I look beautiful. Because there's no ulterior motive there. And I know I'm not supposed to according to the "feel bad about yourself and you'll be less vain and so pure and good" police, but I really love my own reflection, and I love experimenting with makeup (I'm so into Anastasia contour palettes y'all---I have the powder one and the cream one and it's fun and I'm sweating glitter at this point. It 's fun. And a good reprieve from the too long times my period is clearly trying to murder me.)
Men should try to wear makeup. It might really help those that had the patience and self confidence to learn how. Especially the BB and CC creams with sunscreen. Not moisturizing and using sunscreen ages some guys tremendously. It could just help.
posted by discopolo at 1:38 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Men should try to wear makeup. It might really help those that had the patience and self confidence to learn how. Especially the BB and CC creams with sunscreen. Not moisturizing and using sunscreen ages some guys tremendously. It could just help.
posted by discopolo at 1:38 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
These are great.
I have my own college boyfriend story, about my Terrible Boyfriend who is Blocked on Everything Forever. One of his many fine characteristics was assuming, without evidence, that he was an expert in any field you might care to name. (An engineer? why yes, he was. ;) )
One day I was in his room putting on makeup for a formal dinner. "You have really dark shadows under your eyes," he observed.
"Yes..." I said guardedly.
"Do you know what you should do about that? You should not put on that eyeliner." (I liked dark eyeliner.) "It will draw everybody's attention to those dark shadows."
"Or," I suggested, "I could use this concealer to cover them up."
His mind was blown.
posted by daisyk at 3:45 AM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have my own college boyfriend story, about my Terrible Boyfriend who is Blocked on Everything Forever. One of his many fine characteristics was assuming, without evidence, that he was an expert in any field you might care to name. (An engineer? why yes, he was. ;) )
One day I was in his room putting on makeup for a formal dinner. "You have really dark shadows under your eyes," he observed.
"Yes..." I said guardedly.
"Do you know what you should do about that? You should not put on that eyeliner." (I liked dark eyeliner.) "It will draw everybody's attention to those dark shadows."
"Or," I suggested, "I could use this concealer to cover them up."
His mind was blown.
posted by daisyk at 3:45 AM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
And a lot of those guys think that they like women without makeup but actually like women who are wearing less makeup than the amount of makeup they recognize as "wearing makeup." Which is why their protestations are suspect.
It has taken nearly 2 years for my boyfriend to convince me of his absolute sincerity that he gives no fucks about whether I wear any makeup at all.
And a recent tangle between some unknown sneaky allergen and the entire bottom half of my face has reaaaaaaallly put them convictions to the test, I will tell you.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:27 AM on September 17, 2015
It has taken nearly 2 years for my boyfriend to convince me of his absolute sincerity that he gives no fucks about whether I wear any makeup at all.
And a recent tangle between some unknown sneaky allergen and the entire bottom half of my face has reaaaaaaallly put them convictions to the test, I will tell you.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:27 AM on September 17, 2015
I think there's a difference between men who state (often when not asked!) that they like women without makeup and men who actually do not care whether women wear makeup. There may be a sliver of overlap in that Venn diagram, but I'm guessing not all that much.
posted by jaguar at 9:31 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jaguar at 9:31 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
discopolo: "Men should try to wear makeup. It might really help those that had the patience and self confidence to learn how. Especially the BB and CC creams with sunscreen. Not moisturizing and using sunscreen ages some guys tremendously. It could just help."
Some startling quantity of married men use their wives' beauty products. Clinique or Neutrogena or someone came out with a study a few years ago of how their customers used their products, and they were surprised to find that something like 75% of married men use their wives' moisturizers and more than half use their concealer. (And unmarried men basically never did, having no access to wife-cosmetics.) Shortly thereafter you saw the explosion of "for men" lines in moisturizers and sunscreens in particular. I guess they still just use their wives' foundation/concealer for dark circles and zits (the two things men would borrow concealer for). Something like 1 in 5 men admitted to letting their wives "perk them up" with makeup when they were sick and had an important day at work and wanted to look less-sick.
Like many women I just buy my husband moisturizing sunscreen for his face and inform him he's going to use it. I don't care about the aging but I care a lot about the cancer.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:17 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Some startling quantity of married men use their wives' beauty products. Clinique or Neutrogena or someone came out with a study a few years ago of how their customers used their products, and they were surprised to find that something like 75% of married men use their wives' moisturizers and more than half use their concealer. (And unmarried men basically never did, having no access to wife-cosmetics.) Shortly thereafter you saw the explosion of "for men" lines in moisturizers and sunscreens in particular. I guess they still just use their wives' foundation/concealer for dark circles and zits (the two things men would borrow concealer for). Something like 1 in 5 men admitted to letting their wives "perk them up" with makeup when they were sick and had an important day at work and wanted to look less-sick.
Like many women I just buy my husband moisturizing sunscreen for his face and inform him he's going to use it. I don't care about the aging but I care a lot about the cancer.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:17 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Men should try to wear makeup. It might really help those that had the patience and self confidence to learn how.
"You know, you'd look a lot better with a little makeup."
Myself, I fully support the right of every gender to give unsolicited advice.
Shortly thereafter you saw the explosion of "for men" lines in moisturizers and sunscreens in particular.
The worst thing about every unguent, ointment, balm, and soap made "for men" is the smell. I have no wish to smell like a boys locker room, personally, tho given the popularity of these products there must be more than a few who do.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:43 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
"You know, you'd look a lot better with a little makeup."
Myself, I fully support the right of every gender to give unsolicited advice.
Shortly thereafter you saw the explosion of "for men" lines in moisturizers and sunscreens in particular.
The worst thing about every unguent, ointment, balm, and soap made "for men" is the smell. I have no wish to smell like a boys locker room, personally, tho given the popularity of these products there must be more than a few who do.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:43 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
As a point of reference I use an For-Dudes-Branded Old Spice body wash that smells like someone dropped a tumbler of whiskey in fertile soil and it is great.
posted by griphus at 12:15 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by griphus at 12:15 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Some startling quantity of married men use their wives' beauty products.
I really wish mine would, though he sort of gets away with not putting anything on his face because he has much better skin than I do, only it's freckled from not using sunscreen (I know). In my dreams though, he would be into something like this or at least allow me to do him up on occasion--god knows I have enough makeup for all of SHINee and then some.
posted by peripathetic at 12:42 PM on September 17, 2015
I really wish mine would, though he sort of gets away with not putting anything on his face because he has much better skin than I do, only it's freckled from not using sunscreen (I know). In my dreams though, he would be into something like this or at least allow me to do him up on occasion--god knows I have enough makeup for all of SHINee and then some.
posted by peripathetic at 12:42 PM on September 17, 2015
I have opinions, aesthetic opinions, on things that are none of my business including things like the attractiveness of different amounts of makeup, tattoos, jewelry, etc. The fact that they are none of my business isn't going to keep me from having these opinions--they're basically my emotional reactions to these things.
I do my best not to inflict these opinions on others because they are about things that are, after all, not my business.
It's possible some of these opinions are entirely wrong-headed, but I don't particularly want to bring them into the light of day for discussion because then the discussion is about my opinions of things that are none of my business...but discussions like this thread make me want to bring them up for comparison and to mention my perspective. I'm conflicted.
posted by Four Ds at 1:24 PM on September 17, 2015
I do my best not to inflict these opinions on others because they are about things that are, after all, not my business.
It's possible some of these opinions are entirely wrong-headed, but I don't particularly want to bring them into the light of day for discussion because then the discussion is about my opinions of things that are none of my business...but discussions like this thread make me want to bring them up for comparison and to mention my perspective. I'm conflicted.
posted by Four Ds at 1:24 PM on September 17, 2015
octobersurprise: "The worst thing about every unguent, ointment, balm, and soap made "for men" is the smell. "
Yeah, my husband gets plain unscented Neutrogena moisturizing sunscreen, I can't deal with fragrance. The upside of me doing most of his shopping (which is sometimes annoying, he is a grown-ass man who should be able to remember to get his own deodorant) is that I get to pick how he smells.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:20 PM on September 17, 2015
Yeah, my husband gets plain unscented Neutrogena moisturizing sunscreen, I can't deal with fragrance. The upside of me doing most of his shopping (which is sometimes annoying, he is a grown-ass man who should be able to remember to get his own deodorant) is that I get to pick how he smells.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:20 PM on September 17, 2015
Four Ds: "...but discussions like this thread make me want to bring them up for comparison and to mention my perspective. I'm conflicted."
Totally understand where you're coming from! Except your perspective on your personal aesthetic preferences really doesn't belong in discussions about women being judged in various ways in society, for their various levels of makeup.
I don't think comparing your personal aesthetic preferences to other people's is likely to yield anything useful anyway.
So while I get the gut reaction of "Here's what I think about [thing]" you're completely right to not go into it.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:30 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Totally understand where you're coming from! Except your perspective on your personal aesthetic preferences really doesn't belong in discussions about women being judged in various ways in society, for their various levels of makeup.
I don't think comparing your personal aesthetic preferences to other people's is likely to yield anything useful anyway.
So while I get the gut reaction of "Here's what I think about [thing]" you're completely right to not go into it.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:30 PM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I just wondered what's the deal on men wearing wigs to hide baldness, or shoes with those hidden heels? Would that be lying if you found out the guy you thinking about dating were bald?
Is 'putting your face on' and wearing a wig really that different?
posted by guy72277 at 1:42 AM on September 18, 2015
Is 'putting your face on' and wearing a wig really that different?
posted by guy72277 at 1:42 AM on September 18, 2015
Actually, I think that the wig question would depend on how common it was to wear a wig for people in my general dating pool - and this relates to the make-up situation too. If we lived in a world where almost no-one wore make-up, and I showed up wearing skillfully applied, natural-looking makeup that none the less substantially altered my appearance, people might justly feel a bit deceived (although presumably if I showed up with green eyelids and glitter lipstick, they should have figured it out).
In my social circles, men generally don't wear wigs - some women sometimes do. If I were dating a guy who wore a really realistic wig but did not mention it ever and then I woke up next to a bald person who had hair when I went to bed - that would be a bit startling! I think that "deceived" would be the wrong language, but "while I understand that you probably felt weird about telling me this, I kind of wish you had" would be my feeling.
It's interesting, too, that my first impulse was to say "I think it would be shallow to not want to date a guy because he had no/little hair"...and then I realized that it's considered entirely appropriate not to be attracted to a woman with thinning hair, and indeed, thinning hair is one of those problems that are viewed as intensely embarrassing and a sign of personal failure/bodily unacceptability for women. Where is the "I am going bald so I'll shave my head" for women?
It's "shallow" not to be attracted to short men or bald men or skinny men. But in even the most radical/left/progressive/hippie circles it's considered perfectly okay not to be attracted to fat women, tall-and-strong women (I think this is the real equivalent of shortness for men) and women with thinning hair. You just.....don't find them attractive, and that's totally natural and therefore totally unchangeable and totally acceptable. But try telling people that you don't want to date bald guys. And of course, this is because raw sex appeal - which is easy to define! - is very, very important to men and very very natural/hardwired, but women are just attracted to...wallets and men who can tell jokes.
I mean, me, on a personal level I think that meeting in the middle would be helpful - sometimes you're just never going to be attracted to a characteristic, but sometimes practicing thinking differently can change how you feel, and you don't really know until you think about it, look at tumblrs full of attractive bald men, etc.
posted by Frowner at 6:01 AM on September 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
In my social circles, men generally don't wear wigs - some women sometimes do. If I were dating a guy who wore a really realistic wig but did not mention it ever and then I woke up next to a bald person who had hair when I went to bed - that would be a bit startling! I think that "deceived" would be the wrong language, but "while I understand that you probably felt weird about telling me this, I kind of wish you had" would be my feeling.
It's interesting, too, that my first impulse was to say "I think it would be shallow to not want to date a guy because he had no/little hair"...and then I realized that it's considered entirely appropriate not to be attracted to a woman with thinning hair, and indeed, thinning hair is one of those problems that are viewed as intensely embarrassing and a sign of personal failure/bodily unacceptability for women. Where is the "I am going bald so I'll shave my head" for women?
It's "shallow" not to be attracted to short men or bald men or skinny men. But in even the most radical/left/progressive/hippie circles it's considered perfectly okay not to be attracted to fat women, tall-and-strong women (I think this is the real equivalent of shortness for men) and women with thinning hair. You just.....don't find them attractive, and that's totally natural and therefore totally unchangeable and totally acceptable. But try telling people that you don't want to date bald guys. And of course, this is because raw sex appeal - which is easy to define! - is very, very important to men and very very natural/hardwired, but women are just attracted to...wallets and men who can tell jokes.
I mean, me, on a personal level I think that meeting in the middle would be helpful - sometimes you're just never going to be attracted to a characteristic, but sometimes practicing thinking differently can change how you feel, and you don't really know until you think about it, look at tumblrs full of attractive bald men, etc.
posted by Frowner at 6:01 AM on September 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
(What I meant to say about make-up: it's extra ridiculous to say that make-up is "deceptive" because....wait for it....lots of women wear make-up. You know going in that most women with any kind of feminine gender presentation are going to wear make-up at least once in a while. Being surprised that a woman is wearing make-up (as opposed to realizing that a woman is wearing make-up; that's not the same as surprise) is like being surprised that....huh...that the convenience store has started to carry fresh vegetables. It's something that isn't universal but is predictable enough that an ordinarily observant person should be ready for it.
posted by Frowner at 6:07 AM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Frowner at 6:07 AM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Agreed that wigs are a bad example; they're rare enough entirely (apart from a few specific cultural circles) that I was surprised to discover a woman friend's hair was a wig. Though "deceived" does not describe how I felt--it was purely surprise, followed by "oh I hope she wasn't embarrassed to tell me," followed by "man that's a hell of a great wig."
I feel like toupees get a bad rap not because they're a "lie" but because they're a shitty lie--they never look convincing. And it isn't like badly-applied makeup or obviously fake hair extensions for women get a cultural pass either, so, again, I just don't think the analogy holds.
Can't say as I'd be particularly appalled by hidden heels either--I grew up in the 90s, dude. My first boyfriends wore straight-up platform combat boots to look taller.
Actually: I just remembered the moment I discovered that a guy I had a crush on, who I thought had just the most gorgeous green eyes, was wearing colored contacts. Apart from being shocked that such a thing exists, I distinctly recall thinking, "well, I sure hope he keeps wearin' em, they look great."
The opposite sentiment, that a woman who wears makeup that makes her look great is an awful lying person and should stop wearing it, just doesn't really compute for me. Trying to look better is a thing humans do.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:02 AM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I feel like toupees get a bad rap not because they're a "lie" but because they're a shitty lie--they never look convincing. And it isn't like badly-applied makeup or obviously fake hair extensions for women get a cultural pass either, so, again, I just don't think the analogy holds.
Can't say as I'd be particularly appalled by hidden heels either--I grew up in the 90s, dude. My first boyfriends wore straight-up platform combat boots to look taller.
Actually: I just remembered the moment I discovered that a guy I had a crush on, who I thought had just the most gorgeous green eyes, was wearing colored contacts. Apart from being shocked that such a thing exists, I distinctly recall thinking, "well, I sure hope he keeps wearin' em, they look great."
The opposite sentiment, that a woman who wears makeup that makes her look great is an awful lying person and should stop wearing it, just doesn't really compute for me. Trying to look better is a thing humans do.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:02 AM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by shakespeherian at 4:15 PM on September 15, 2015 [15 favorites]