#EndMommyWars
October 22, 2015 4:23 PM Subscribe
In a new video, sponsored by Similac as part of its #endmommywars campaign, seven mothers discuss the judgments they receive and the judgments they make about other mothers.
Oh yes please. Even though I'm childless and not a participant in such controversies, I am so tired of these debates, with both sides seemingly feeling the need to defend their positions from the battlements. Can't you all just do what's best for yourselves and families and respect other women's right to do the same?
posted by orange swan at 5:04 PM on October 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 5:04 PM on October 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
I'd be a little bit more in favor of this if it weren't sponsored by a formula company. I mean this is like pink October breast cancer awareness turned up to 11, isn't it?
I don't have kids. My mom is a sometimes lactation consultant and has worked with La Leche League in the past. My brothers and I were all breastfed, and my mom is/has always been kind of militant about it. It was never a question for me that, if I had kids, I would at least start from a place of wanting to breastfeed. But I also have some friends who just did not do well with it, it didn't work for them, whatever. And that's also fine.
But, again, I chafe at the idea of a for-profit corporation with an interest in getting women not to breastfeed framing it as "ending stigma" or, worse, suggesting that bottle feeding is some kind of moral victory.
Breastmilk Blue?
posted by Sara C. at 5:07 PM on October 22, 2015 [31 favorites]
I don't have kids. My mom is a sometimes lactation consultant and has worked with La Leche League in the past. My brothers and I were all breastfed, and my mom is/has always been kind of militant about it. It was never a question for me that, if I had kids, I would at least start from a place of wanting to breastfeed. But I also have some friends who just did not do well with it, it didn't work for them, whatever. And that's also fine.
But, again, I chafe at the idea of a for-profit corporation with an interest in getting women not to breastfeed framing it as "ending stigma" or, worse, suggesting that bottle feeding is some kind of moral victory.
Breastmilk Blue?
posted by Sara C. at 5:07 PM on October 22, 2015 [31 favorites]
Well, if it was, you'd probably be better off with Similac.
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:10 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:10 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Everyone should do whats best for their family without judgement.
But the fact remains that breastfeeding is on average better for both mom and baby and formula companies have devoted time and energy to convincing people otherwise.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:19 PM on October 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
But the fact remains that breastfeeding is on average better for both mom and baby and formula companies have devoted time and energy to convincing people otherwise.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:19 PM on October 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
Much like the Dove "Real Beauty" campaign, I can't help but view this an insidiously cynical move on the part of corporate advertising to pretend to counter messages they themselves are sending, constantly.
I find it interesting that Ada, first mom you see breastfeeding is also the one who is sending her child to daycare at two months, and whose child is the only one you see crying and forlorn. Almost as though Similac is trying to send a message about breastfeeding mothers. Almost as though many women are going to have a reflexive reaction of judgement (not saying a correct one) against a mother who puts such a young infant in daycare.
And the pediatrician (you know, pediatricians, the only people who might have the right to advise you on whether or not to breastfeed,) is the first one who makes a negative judgment about other women's choices (decorating nursuries.) Almost as though Similac would like to plant the idea that pediatricians' judgments might sometimes be arbitrary and unfair.
And then the mom who wants to raise her gender neutral child has the cathartic apology for judging another mom for formula feeding. Almost like the whole film was leading up to it.
But weird, I didn't hear anyone verbally judging the breastfeeding moms. Almost like that judgment was meant to happen subliminally, by the viewer.
posted by prewar lemonade at 5:19 PM on October 22, 2015 [56 favorites]
I find it interesting that Ada, first mom you see breastfeeding is also the one who is sending her child to daycare at two months, and whose child is the only one you see crying and forlorn. Almost as though Similac is trying to send a message about breastfeeding mothers. Almost as though many women are going to have a reflexive reaction of judgement (not saying a correct one) against a mother who puts such a young infant in daycare.
And the pediatrician (you know, pediatricians, the only people who might have the right to advise you on whether or not to breastfeed,) is the first one who makes a negative judgment about other women's choices (decorating nursuries.) Almost as though Similac would like to plant the idea that pediatricians' judgments might sometimes be arbitrary and unfair.
And then the mom who wants to raise her gender neutral child has the cathartic apology for judging another mom for formula feeding. Almost like the whole film was leading up to it.
But weird, I didn't hear anyone verbally judging the breastfeeding moms. Almost like that judgment was meant to happen subliminally, by the viewer.
posted by prewar lemonade at 5:19 PM on October 22, 2015 [56 favorites]
The overall message in this "video" (um, commercial) would seem to be that moms are people too and damn if people can't help but judge each other...but, lookit, at the end of the day we're all basically doing the best we can (hugs n' high fives!). Messagewise, it's hardly groundbreaking. But ad strategy-wise, it's fairly clever. What's being soft sold here is the idea that Similac is the brand that truly understands how hard it is to be a modern mama. That's gotta be worth a few stock points.
posted by Bob Regular at 5:20 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Bob Regular at 5:20 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this is just an ad, isn't it? The whole point of which is to make new mothers anxious about who might be judging them on how they feed their children so they feel reassured by this advertising campaign and buy the product.
posted by sputzie at 5:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by sputzie at 5:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
Especially with the bottom of their page on it linking to a rewards program and lots of messaging about how they're all supportive of stressed-out moms. I don't think there's necessarily a wrong decision to be made here (or at least that 'it's my body and I don't want to' is more than reason enough if someone doesn't want to breastfeed)... but it feels like it's a decision that ought to be free of profit-driven influence. That'll never happen. But I have to wonder, if that's the first thought of so many people here, if this will backfire. Like, I don't even have strong opinions on this and it still made me feel like it was an ad made by a tobacco company about how you're strong and independent and you totally make your own choices! Of course you won't pay any attention to those silly anti-smoking ads! It feels, I guess, like they'd happily switch back to the ads with the subtle menace about the inadequacy of breastfeeding as soon as they didn't feel like they were losing ground.
posted by Sequence at 5:29 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Sequence at 5:29 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ad or not, I'm glad this is out there. I'm not a mom right yet, but I decided a long time ago I wouldn't breastfeed as a mother, and I don't ever want to be told that breastfeeding is better or that my choice for my baby is wrong. It isn't.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:31 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:31 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
The whole point of which is to make new mothers anxious about who might be judging them on how they feed their children
New mothers already know that everybody has already been judging them for months, ever since they became visibly pregnant, on every choice they make, whether or not it has any conceivable connection to their child's wellbeing or their own. And before that, they were being judged as to whether they were being women the right way - now they're judged on that as well as on whether they're adequate mothers.
There is no "right" choice mothers can make, on a huge number of topics, but especially feeding and working.
posted by nickmark at 5:33 PM on October 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
New mothers already know that everybody has already been judging them for months, ever since they became visibly pregnant, on every choice they make, whether or not it has any conceivable connection to their child's wellbeing or their own. And before that, they were being judged as to whether they were being women the right way - now they're judged on that as well as on whether they're adequate mothers.
There is no "right" choice mothers can make, on a huge number of topics, but especially feeding and working.
posted by nickmark at 5:33 PM on October 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
To clarify, the pediatrician isn't the first one who admits to judgmental thoughts - it stuck out because she uses the present tense, where all the previous statements are past tense. "I used to judge women who...etc."
Also I just noticed the lingering shot of the pacifier during Ada's bit too. Almost like we're supposed to make an association.
posted by prewar lemonade at 5:34 PM on October 22, 2015
Also I just noticed the lingering shot of the pacifier during Ada's bit too. Almost like we're supposed to make an association.
posted by prewar lemonade at 5:34 PM on October 22, 2015
I was weaned on Similac. I turned out OK.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 5:34 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by jeff-o-matic at 5:34 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Do you mean breastfeeding is better for an individual or that breastfeeding is better for populations? because the latter is effectively a scientific fact, the former is up to the individual.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:35 PM on October 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:35 PM on October 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
There are many, many factors that go into a healthy population and a healthy child that are more important. To cite studies is judgmental, IMHO. You don't know better than the child's mother.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:41 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:41 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
New mothers already know that everybody has already been judging them for months
See, I don't think this ad is meant to sell women on the idea that they are being judged. I think it is meant to turn deep-seated feelings of judgement and potential failure and associate that with breastfeeding, and associate freedom from those feelings with formula feeding.
posted by Sara C. at 5:42 PM on October 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
See, I don't think this ad is meant to sell women on the idea that they are being judged. I think it is meant to turn deep-seated feelings of judgement and potential failure and associate that with breastfeeding, and associate freedom from those feelings with formula feeding.
posted by Sara C. at 5:42 PM on October 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
I think you are misreading what I wrote.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:43 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:43 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
To cite studies is judgmental, IMHO.
See, it's things like this where I start feeling like, you know, at some point you have to take ownership of your own choices and just stop worrying so much that somebody might be judging you. It's not the entire rest of the world's responsibility to make you feel secure in your choices. Breastfeed or not, it is absolutely immaterial to me. But to suggest that science is "judgmental" is bullshit, I'm sorry, and if it really seems that way, something way bigger than "how to feed a hypothetical infant" is going on.
(I'm also pretty sure that it's the formula companies that are pushing this "everybody has to make you feel like you made the right choice, or THEY'RE EVIL" idea, in the first place. I heard an interview on NPR earlier this week with a woman who was pretty obviously a formula company employee, on this very topic, and it was full of this same rhetoric.)
posted by Sara C. at 5:45 PM on October 22, 2015 [38 favorites]
See, it's things like this where I start feeling like, you know, at some point you have to take ownership of your own choices and just stop worrying so much that somebody might be judging you. It's not the entire rest of the world's responsibility to make you feel secure in your choices. Breastfeed or not, it is absolutely immaterial to me. But to suggest that science is "judgmental" is bullshit, I'm sorry, and if it really seems that way, something way bigger than "how to feed a hypothetical infant" is going on.
(I'm also pretty sure that it's the formula companies that are pushing this "everybody has to make you feel like you made the right choice, or THEY'RE EVIL" idea, in the first place. I heard an interview on NPR earlier this week with a woman who was pretty obviously a formula company employee, on this very topic, and it was full of this same rhetoric.)
posted by Sara C. at 5:45 PM on October 22, 2015 [38 favorites]
I noticed that none of the formula feeding moms said they judged the breastfeeding moms for nursing.
I must be extra oblivious though (or maybe having my baby at 38, just out of fucks?) because I never really felt like I was getting a ton of judgement as a new (full time working, breastfeeding, tattooed and hairy-legged) mom. The internet probably judged me for sleep training but whatevs because everything is awesome when your baby sleeps.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:48 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I must be extra oblivious though (or maybe having my baby at 38, just out of fucks?) because I never really felt like I was getting a ton of judgement as a new (full time working, breastfeeding, tattooed and hairy-legged) mom. The internet probably judged me for sleep training but whatevs because everything is awesome when your baby sleeps.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:48 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Its like broccoli. Its good for you. Eating more broccoli instead of bad food will make you healthier. Its good to encourage people to eat broccoli, and populations that eat more broccoli will be healthier. But some people don't like broccoli or may be allergic to it or can't reasonably buy it. It would be wrong to judge them for it. But it would also be wrong to say that broccoli isn't healthier.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:52 PM on October 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:52 PM on October 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
Well, and some societies (*cough*America) are organized in such a way as to make broccoli-eating difficult-to-impossible for a subset of people who may, in fact, really want to eat broccoli.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:55 PM on October 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:55 PM on October 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
Especially with the bottom of their page on it linking to a rewards program and lots of messaging about how they're all supportive of stressed-out moms. I don't think there's necessarily a wrong decision to be made here (or at least that 'it's my body and I don't want to' is more than reason enough if someone doesn't want to breastfeed)... but it feels like it's a decision that ought to be free of profit-driven influence. That'll never happen. But I have to wonder, if that's the first thought of so many people here, if this will backfire. Like, I don't even have strong opinions on this and it still made me feel like it was an ad made by a tobacco company about how you're strong and independent and you totally make your own choices! Of course you won't pay any attention to those silly anti-smoking ads! It feels, I guess, like they'd happily switch back to the ads with the subtle menace about the inadequacy of breastfeeding as soon as they didn't feel like they were losing ground.
This. It's bogglingly disingenuous for Similac to present this as though they don't have a stake, and are just here to help moms hug it out. They are in the business of selling formula in the face of worldwide pushback on formula marketing.
posted by prewar lemonade at 6:00 PM on October 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
This. It's bogglingly disingenuous for Similac to present this as though they don't have a stake, and are just here to help moms hug it out. They are in the business of selling formula in the face of worldwide pushback on formula marketing.
posted by prewar lemonade at 6:00 PM on October 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
I have a few cans of similac, just in case. It's surprising how much it tastes exactly like breast milk.
That being said I'm a firm believer that it's actually the marketing people / blog columnists who stoke the mommy wars. In the wild I've only met one A-type judgy-judgy mom. Maybe it's just the crowd I run with. Everyone else has been camp "whatever gets you through the day, honey."
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:07 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
That being said I'm a firm believer that it's actually the marketing people / blog columnists who stoke the mommy wars. In the wild I've only met one A-type judgy-judgy mom. Maybe it's just the crowd I run with. Everyone else has been camp "whatever gets you through the day, honey."
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:07 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
I look forward to Similac lobbying for longer maternal and/or parental leave so more mothers can breastfeed longer.
Right?
posted by GuyZero at 6:08 PM on October 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
Right?
posted by GuyZero at 6:08 PM on October 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
Appalling. All of these women are committing grievous parenting errors that will ruin the lives of their children, and the Internet should be mobilized to show them the error of their ways.
posted by ocschwar at 6:11 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 6:11 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Is that supposed to be funny?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:12 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:12 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm kind of amazed at some of the previous comments. I agree that it's problematic that this comes from a formula manufacturer, but the message is nevertheless important and necessary.
Just yesterday I read this summary of reader reactions on a Sunday essay on this topic in the New York Times. The remarkable thing about them is what soren_lorensen noticed, and that there's no stories of breastfeeding mothers being publicly shamed by formula mothers for breastfeeding, while not only are there numerous horrifying stories of shaming, including in public, of formula mothers, there's explicit comments that shame, as well.
The thing is, it's absolutely true that in North America there was a historical period where breastfeeding was medically and socially discouraged and that was bad. It's also absolutely true that formula manufacturers have a disgusting record abroad of stigmatizing breastfeeding and discouraging it in ways that, within those cultures and economic conditions, is harmful to babies. And it's also true that, all things being equal, breast milk is the better choice. (When all things are equal. But all things are not always equal.)
And, finally, it's also absolutely true that our culture makes it very difficult for mothers to breastfeed and there's still a lot of toxic messaging about women breastfeeding in public. That is bad and I think it's an essential feminist project to fight that.
But, all that said, the simple fact of the matter is that the background radiation in our culture, so to speak, is to see women as baby machines who are public property and therefore open season on public and private shaming of all child-raising decisions. It's extraordinarily toxic and harmful and speaking as a childless man, seeing all this from the outside, I've been astonished and dismayed that women and even many feminists unconsciously go along with this culture that assumes that a individual, actual woman's choices about parenting are a topic of public debate and shaming. And because this is the case, what's happened is what always happens with all other parenting decisions by women -- whichever way the wind blows, is the way that mothers are shamed. And for a while now, that's very strongly been on the side of shaming formula mothers, not breastfeeding mothers.
Don't minimize this and don't underestimate how toxic it is. All this public shaming about a mother's parenting choices are toxic, but my observation is that the formula/breastfeeding one hits women particularly badly for a complicated intersection of reasons. And read some of those quotes in the NYT link or, hell, just mothers that talk about this elsewhere on the web. It's unbelievable what people will come out and say to women feeding their baby formula -- in public, strangers, family, medical professionals, and others. Think about how strongly the message of shaming comes through in these anecdotes. That tells us something.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:14 PM on October 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
Just yesterday I read this summary of reader reactions on a Sunday essay on this topic in the New York Times. The remarkable thing about them is what soren_lorensen noticed, and that there's no stories of breastfeeding mothers being publicly shamed by formula mothers for breastfeeding, while not only are there numerous horrifying stories of shaming, including in public, of formula mothers, there's explicit comments that shame, as well.
The thing is, it's absolutely true that in North America there was a historical period where breastfeeding was medically and socially discouraged and that was bad. It's also absolutely true that formula manufacturers have a disgusting record abroad of stigmatizing breastfeeding and discouraging it in ways that, within those cultures and economic conditions, is harmful to babies. And it's also true that, all things being equal, breast milk is the better choice. (When all things are equal. But all things are not always equal.)
And, finally, it's also absolutely true that our culture makes it very difficult for mothers to breastfeed and there's still a lot of toxic messaging about women breastfeeding in public. That is bad and I think it's an essential feminist project to fight that.
But, all that said, the simple fact of the matter is that the background radiation in our culture, so to speak, is to see women as baby machines who are public property and therefore open season on public and private shaming of all child-raising decisions. It's extraordinarily toxic and harmful and speaking as a childless man, seeing all this from the outside, I've been astonished and dismayed that women and even many feminists unconsciously go along with this culture that assumes that a individual, actual woman's choices about parenting are a topic of public debate and shaming. And because this is the case, what's happened is what always happens with all other parenting decisions by women -- whichever way the wind blows, is the way that mothers are shamed. And for a while now, that's very strongly been on the side of shaming formula mothers, not breastfeeding mothers.
Don't minimize this and don't underestimate how toxic it is. All this public shaming about a mother's parenting choices are toxic, but my observation is that the formula/breastfeeding one hits women particularly badly for a complicated intersection of reasons. And read some of those quotes in the NYT link or, hell, just mothers that talk about this elsewhere on the web. It's unbelievable what people will come out and say to women feeding their baby formula -- in public, strangers, family, medical professionals, and others. Think about how strongly the message of shaming comes through in these anecdotes. That tells us something.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:14 PM on October 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
But the fact remains that breastfeeding is on average better for both mom and baby and formula companies have devoted time and energy to convincing people otherwise.
It should also be noted that some mothers are incapable of producing, and some infants are incapable of breastfeeding (prematurity, aspiration, inability to latch, etc). For a lot of these infants, Neosure is a goddamn lifesaver. Literally.
This ad campaign definitely feels a bit off to me, however. It's a bit ironic, or perhaps more cynically, intentional that this video winds up stoking more mommy war bullshit.
posted by Existential Dread at 6:15 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
It should also be noted that some mothers are incapable of producing, and some infants are incapable of breastfeeding (prematurity, aspiration, inability to latch, etc). For a lot of these infants, Neosure is a goddamn lifesaver. Literally.
This ad campaign definitely feels a bit off to me, however. It's a bit ironic, or perhaps more cynically, intentional that this video winds up stoking more mommy war bullshit.
posted by Existential Dread at 6:15 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's also absolutely true that formula manufacturers have a disgusting record abroad of stigmatizing breastfeeding and discouraging it in ways that, within those cultures and economic conditions, is harmful to babies.
The linked video is almost a textbook example of this.
posted by Sara C. at 6:18 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
The linked video is almost a textbook example of this.
posted by Sara C. at 6:18 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I agree that it's problematic that this comes from a formula manufacturer, but the message is nevertheless important and necessary.
If a Coke commercial says "It's great to enjoy time with your family" and shows everyone having a Coke together, do you congratulate Coke for helping people see the wisdom of forging closer family bonds?
Or are they taking your own life and using it to sell you stuff?
Yes, the message is important. And yes, it's crazy insulting that it comes from a formula manufacturer who is trying to generate goodwill by associating themselves with something that is inherently good.
This is Branding 101 stuff really - show a car with a sexy woman, show a Coke next to a group of friends laughing together, show a happy family eating dinner together with a box of Great Pasta(TM) sitting awkwardly on the table. And tell mothers to all support one another in spite of all making different choices, while slowly panning past a bottle of formula.
Pretty sure I'm not the only Mefite who has read Adbusters once in their life.
posted by GuyZero at 6:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
If a Coke commercial says "It's great to enjoy time with your family" and shows everyone having a Coke together, do you congratulate Coke for helping people see the wisdom of forging closer family bonds?
Or are they taking your own life and using it to sell you stuff?
Yes, the message is important. And yes, it's crazy insulting that it comes from a formula manufacturer who is trying to generate goodwill by associating themselves with something that is inherently good.
This is Branding 101 stuff really - show a car with a sexy woman, show a Coke next to a group of friends laughing together, show a happy family eating dinner together with a box of Great Pasta(TM) sitting awkwardly on the table. And tell mothers to all support one another in spite of all making different choices, while slowly panning past a bottle of formula.
Pretty sure I'm not the only Mefite who has read Adbusters once in their life.
posted by GuyZero at 6:23 PM on October 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
I really liked this video... Everything they judged each other about was the stuff they were afraid of or they themselves had "failed" at. The one woman saying she was a doctor, she had no time so she didn't create a theme for her nursery and therefore thought all other women who did it were frivolous. Basically masking the gulit she felt in "failing" to decorate the nursery fully.
There are real pros for each side. Not breastfeeding is SUCH FREEDOM, my cousin had the best mat leave because she could split feeding with her hubby, but breastfeeding has antibodies which is helpful. In the end I think breastfeeding is way harder than formula so those that stick to it are probably wanting to justify the extra effort for minimal extra gains I guess. (I say this as a breastfeeding mother, so many times I want to quit but I slog through it mainly because of social pressure and I still want to lose the baby weight. Though I used formula as a top up in the early days.)
They showed all the "I couldn't breastfeed for medical reasons but I wanted to so much" mothers... What they didn't show in the video was the blasé mother: "eh I didn't want to wreck my nipples and I like to go out, you know?"
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:24 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
There are real pros for each side. Not breastfeeding is SUCH FREEDOM, my cousin had the best mat leave because she could split feeding with her hubby, but breastfeeding has antibodies which is helpful. In the end I think breastfeeding is way harder than formula so those that stick to it are probably wanting to justify the extra effort for minimal extra gains I guess. (I say this as a breastfeeding mother, so many times I want to quit but I slog through it mainly because of social pressure and I still want to lose the baby weight. Though I used formula as a top up in the early days.)
They showed all the "I couldn't breastfeed for medical reasons but I wanted to so much" mothers... What they didn't show in the video was the blasé mother: "eh I didn't want to wreck my nipples and I like to go out, you know?"
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:24 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
And for a while now, that's very strongly been on the side of shaming formula mothers, not breastfeeding mothers.
Its conditional on class and since this is the US, on race. The Sunday Times is going to have one view, but I assure you that in poor black communities, where many mothers have hypersexualized bodies and only avenue for income is WIC, mothers who use formula primarily are not shamed more than mothers who primarily breasfeed. And considering the general health environment of the poor in the US, they are often the population that could benefit the most from breastfeeding.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:26 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Its conditional on class and since this is the US, on race. The Sunday Times is going to have one view, but I assure you that in poor black communities, where many mothers have hypersexualized bodies and only avenue for income is WIC, mothers who use formula primarily are not shamed more than mothers who primarily breasfeed. And considering the general health environment of the poor in the US, they are often the population that could benefit the most from breastfeeding.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:26 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
The linked video is almost a textbook example of this.
Ok I'll bite... How does the video shame breastfeeding? I didn't see it but maybe I'm blind to these kinds of things.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:28 PM on October 22, 2015
Ok I'll bite... How does the video shame breastfeeding? I didn't see it but maybe I'm blind to these kinds of things.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:28 PM on October 22, 2015
People who think breast is best are judgy judgers who judge you!
Also, that one mom in the video who is shown breastfeeding is depicted as having this crazy impossible life, where she also talks about how much the men in her office judge her for breastfeeding. She's positioned as basically this person, from every infomercial ever. If only there was a simpler way!
Then you get all the women who have discovered the simpler way (THANKS, SIMILAC!) but who of course are hounded at every turn by the evil, evil breastmilk lobby who just want to make your life more annoying and inconvenient.
posted by Sara C. at 6:43 PM on October 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Also, that one mom in the video who is shown breastfeeding is depicted as having this crazy impossible life, where she also talks about how much the men in her office judge her for breastfeeding. She's positioned as basically this person, from every infomercial ever. If only there was a simpler way!
Then you get all the women who have discovered the simpler way (THANKS, SIMILAC!) but who of course are hounded at every turn by the evil, evil breastmilk lobby who just want to make your life more annoying and inconvenient.
posted by Sara C. at 6:43 PM on October 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Just yesterday I read this summary of reader reactions on a Sunday essay on this topic in the New York Times.
That essay is worth a read: Overselling Breast Feeding
Oddly, the fervor of breast-feeding advocacy has ramped up even as medical research — published in The Journal of the American Medical Association, BMJ in Britain and The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition — has begun to report that the effects of breast-feeding are probably “modest.”
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 6:47 PM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
That essay is worth a read: Overselling Breast Feeding
Oddly, the fervor of breast-feeding advocacy has ramped up even as medical research — published in The Journal of the American Medical Association, BMJ in Britain and The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition — has begun to report that the effects of breast-feeding are probably “modest.”
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 6:47 PM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
The context is of course that formula companies have relentlessly marketed the notion that breastmilk is deficient and less desirable, very much counterfactually, with real adverse population effects. This is a real thing that they do.
In addition, even today, women struggle to breastfeed at work, in public, even (horribly) in hospitals. So there is a desire to promote breastfeeding. And, of course, there is a tension between programs that encourage this behaviour, and the autonomy of women. I spent years buying formula for one of my children for unimpeachable medical reasons, but still felt sad and judged at the supermarket for doing so. But that's life: there's no perfect path here.
The idea that Similac has anything to say here, though, is just crazy-nuts. Ick. No.
posted by ~ at 6:48 PM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
In addition, even today, women struggle to breastfeed at work, in public, even (horribly) in hospitals. So there is a desire to promote breastfeeding. And, of course, there is a tension between programs that encourage this behaviour, and the autonomy of women. I spent years buying formula for one of my children for unimpeachable medical reasons, but still felt sad and judged at the supermarket for doing so. But that's life: there's no perfect path here.
The idea that Similac has anything to say here, though, is just crazy-nuts. Ick. No.
posted by ~ at 6:48 PM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
There haven't been a lot of studies focusing on adult outcomes but I am unconvinced the effects are modest. I just pulled up a few studies from pubmed on adult outcomes and so far what I'm finding seems overwhelmingly to point to the fact that there's some major impacts. I guess it depends on how to define "modest" and what your goal is.
I'm not happy about my community deciding for my mother that nursing and bonding were no big deal, not worth protecting and pressuring her to give me up for adoption and celebrating infant adoption as a societal win in the place of actually doing the work of supporting moms and their children together. Nor that it was decided for me that breastfeeding and bonding with my daughter were no big deal and adoption was clearly healthier because poverty is bad for kids DUH and we can't dare see fixing poverty as the thing to solve, no we have to rip babies from their screaming mothers arms and help remind them to "do the right thing"!! because it can't be that the right thing is for any asshole who has the urge to tell a woman to destroy herself for her child instead see that they are witness a horrific state of suffering and feel compelled to actually say, help instead of just watch and remind themselves it's not their fault and they shouldn't have to help.
And I did pump my milk and I froze it and I sent it to her.
No one should be shamed for needing to formula feed and it's no one's business what any particular mothers issues are that lead her to it. But the fact that mom's struggle with breast feeding is something we should first be addressing by financially and structurally supporting breastfeeding, including the time off work and the financial supports to do it. Quality formula should and will be there.
But I can't help but feel like formula companies are the beast waiting in the shadows hoping you struggle with it enough to give up already give in to formula. Well, because they kind of do. That's how capitalism works.
Our whole society is designed to force women to accept that bonding means nothing, they need to hand over their baby to daycare the second their womb has healed enough to get back to (REAL!!!!) work, all that sobbing at work from missing the baby is "silly hormones" nothing to take seriously....
I mean our whole society forces so many women to be unable to choose nursing. The fact that similac is willing to make money of that struggle doesn't make their "non-judging" caring, it's more like they don' have any morals to begin with so why would they judge when ethics isn't really their thing anyway? I think more women are FORCED to formula feed by poverty and lack of maternity leave and breast feeding support than are literally forced to formula feed by advocacy campaigns about the importance of supporting moms with breastfeeding even when and especially because it's hard for them.
posted by xarnop at 7:19 PM on October 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
I'm not happy about my community deciding for my mother that nursing and bonding were no big deal, not worth protecting and pressuring her to give me up for adoption and celebrating infant adoption as a societal win in the place of actually doing the work of supporting moms and their children together. Nor that it was decided for me that breastfeeding and bonding with my daughter were no big deal and adoption was clearly healthier because poverty is bad for kids DUH and we can't dare see fixing poverty as the thing to solve, no we have to rip babies from their screaming mothers arms and help remind them to "do the right thing"!! because it can't be that the right thing is for any asshole who has the urge to tell a woman to destroy herself for her child instead see that they are witness a horrific state of suffering and feel compelled to actually say, help instead of just watch and remind themselves it's not their fault and they shouldn't have to help.
And I did pump my milk and I froze it and I sent it to her.
No one should be shamed for needing to formula feed and it's no one's business what any particular mothers issues are that lead her to it. But the fact that mom's struggle with breast feeding is something we should first be addressing by financially and structurally supporting breastfeeding, including the time off work and the financial supports to do it. Quality formula should and will be there.
But I can't help but feel like formula companies are the beast waiting in the shadows hoping you struggle with it enough to give up already give in to formula. Well, because they kind of do. That's how capitalism works.
Our whole society is designed to force women to accept that bonding means nothing, they need to hand over their baby to daycare the second their womb has healed enough to get back to (REAL!!!!) work, all that sobbing at work from missing the baby is "silly hormones" nothing to take seriously....
I mean our whole society forces so many women to be unable to choose nursing. The fact that similac is willing to make money of that struggle doesn't make their "non-judging" caring, it's more like they don' have any morals to begin with so why would they judge when ethics isn't really their thing anyway? I think more women are FORCED to formula feed by poverty and lack of maternity leave and breast feeding support than are literally forced to formula feed by advocacy campaigns about the importance of supporting moms with breastfeeding even when and especially because it's hard for them.
posted by xarnop at 7:19 PM on October 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
Got it. They could have shown the happy breastfeeding mother as a contrary point to the stressed out breast feeders. But I think they showed the reality too - pumping is awkward (Moo) and at work is even worse. And breastfeeding is inconvenient - I can't be away from my kid for more than 1-2 hours without some milk pre-pumped to cover my absence, and even that pumping has to be timed with regular feeds to keep my supply consistent. Formula IS easier. No question. Just crack a can and done.
I don't mean to sound like I'm a lobbyist for Big Formula, I'm just venting about how breastfeeding has been a challenge for me, and it's even more frustrating because when I was pregnant I got an earful from the LLL peoples who insisted breastfeeding doesn't hurt, you'll always have enough, it's the most natural way, baby will have less gas and stomach issues etc and that hasn't come true for me. And in the early days when my kid was losing weight due to medical and breastfeeding issues, I actually did feel guilty for "giving in" and topping up with formula, and it was the LLL peoples who contributed to that guilt by advocating "not one drop" of formula lest I forever alter baby's gut bacteria. So the video wasn't wrong - breastfeeding advocates can be very extremist. Formula was there to cover the gaps in the early days and I'm glad it was available. And I resent being made to feel guilty for using it.
Ok I'm done venting.
Again like I said above, pros for each side. Breastfeeding is marginally better and if those benefits are worth the effort for you then have at 'er. But don't feel bad if you decide they aren't.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:28 PM on October 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
I don't mean to sound like I'm a lobbyist for Big Formula, I'm just venting about how breastfeeding has been a challenge for me, and it's even more frustrating because when I was pregnant I got an earful from the LLL peoples who insisted breastfeeding doesn't hurt, you'll always have enough, it's the most natural way, baby will have less gas and stomach issues etc and that hasn't come true for me. And in the early days when my kid was losing weight due to medical and breastfeeding issues, I actually did feel guilty for "giving in" and topping up with formula, and it was the LLL peoples who contributed to that guilt by advocating "not one drop" of formula lest I forever alter baby's gut bacteria. So the video wasn't wrong - breastfeeding advocates can be very extremist. Formula was there to cover the gaps in the early days and I'm glad it was available. And I resent being made to feel guilty for using it.
Ok I'm done venting.
Again like I said above, pros for each side. Breastfeeding is marginally better and if those benefits are worth the effort for you then have at 'er. But don't feel bad if you decide they aren't.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:28 PM on October 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
Having worked for the manufacturer of Similac and having seen the marketing campaigns for their other products (including the one I worked on - I think they used the same film crew because the styles are incredibly similar), I have a hard time viewing the video as anything other than advertising. I don't think I'm capable of being objective about it, as I was really ambivalent about working for a Big Pharma company and watching this video dredged all those feelings back up. Aside from the Similac freebies in maternity wards, they also used to give huge numbers of free samples to employees having babies. It always seemed underhanded to me.
Obviously this is an important conversation to have, but the motives of a corporate marketing campaign undermine its authenticity. It seems analogous in some ways to the Dove Campaign for Real Beauty a while back, where Dove "redefined" beauty in marginally broader terms than the mainstream media and called it revolutionary.
posted by zenzicube at 7:39 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
Obviously this is an important conversation to have, but the motives of a corporate marketing campaign undermine its authenticity. It seems analogous in some ways to the Dove Campaign for Real Beauty a while back, where Dove "redefined" beauty in marginally broader terms than the mainstream media and called it revolutionary.
posted by zenzicube at 7:39 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
But, all that said, the simple fact of the matter is that the background radiation in our culture, so to speak, is to see women as baby machines who are public property and therefore open season on public and private shaming of all child-raising decisions. It's extraordinarily toxic and harmful and speaking as a childless man, seeing all this from the outside, I've been astonished and dismayed that women and even many feminists unconsciously go along with this culture that assumes that a individual, actual woman's choices about parenting are a topic of public debate and shaming.
Ivan Fyodorovich, I don't think we disagree, just for the record. I don't have any babies and would be the last person to judge a woman for how she feeds her kid. I'm glad formula is an option for folks who can't breastfeed, or for whom it's a lifesaving tool to augment breast milk. I absolutely agree that it's beyond the pale for anyone who is not that child's doctor to weigh on a specific parent's choices re: formula or breast or milk bank or wet nurse or whatever. (And it's always the moms on whom the judgment falls.)
The thing is, it's absolutely true that in North America there was a historical period where breastfeeding was medically and socially discouraged and that was bad. It's also absolutely true that formula manufacturers have a disgusting record abroad of stigmatizing breastfeeding and discouraging it in ways that, within those cultures and economic conditions, is harmful to babies. And it's also true that, all things being equal, breast milk is the better choice. (When all things are equal. But all things are not always equal.)
And, finally, it's also absolutely true that our culture makes it very difficult for mothers to breastfeed and there's still a lot of toxic messaging about women breastfeeding in public. That is bad and I think it's an essential feminist project to fight that.
I compared this earlier to the Dove Real Beauty campaign for a reason. I hated that campaign even though the ostensible goal is laudable, because I found it disingenuous and manipulative. Industries with terrible track records should not be the ones leading these kinds of conversations, anymore than they should be the ones setting safety standards. They inevitably slant it and promote a point of view that benefits them. Similac is no different.
posted by prewar lemonade at 7:42 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ivan Fyodorovich, I don't think we disagree, just for the record. I don't have any babies and would be the last person to judge a woman for how she feeds her kid. I'm glad formula is an option for folks who can't breastfeed, or for whom it's a lifesaving tool to augment breast milk. I absolutely agree that it's beyond the pale for anyone who is not that child's doctor to weigh on a specific parent's choices re: formula or breast or milk bank or wet nurse or whatever. (And it's always the moms on whom the judgment falls.)
The thing is, it's absolutely true that in North America there was a historical period where breastfeeding was medically and socially discouraged and that was bad. It's also absolutely true that formula manufacturers have a disgusting record abroad of stigmatizing breastfeeding and discouraging it in ways that, within those cultures and economic conditions, is harmful to babies. And it's also true that, all things being equal, breast milk is the better choice. (When all things are equal. But all things are not always equal.)
And, finally, it's also absolutely true that our culture makes it very difficult for mothers to breastfeed and there's still a lot of toxic messaging about women breastfeeding in public. That is bad and I think it's an essential feminist project to fight that.
I compared this earlier to the Dove Real Beauty campaign for a reason. I hated that campaign even though the ostensible goal is laudable, because I found it disingenuous and manipulative. Industries with terrible track records should not be the ones leading these kinds of conversations, anymore than they should be the ones setting safety standards. They inevitably slant it and promote a point of view that benefits them. Similac is no different.
posted by prewar lemonade at 7:42 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
That being said I'm a firm believer that it's actually the marketing people / blog columnists who stoke the mommy wars. In the wild I've only met one A-type judgy-judgy mom. Maybe it's just the crowd I run with. Everyone else has been camp "whatever gets you through the day, honey."
Yeah, this is my experience as well. I've found interactions with other parents to be much more supportive and less judgmental than just random interactions with people I meet in other ways -- there's like an in-the-trenches-together mindset. People have each other's back. I've worked, stayed home, breast fed, formula fed, tube fed, Mcdonald's fed, and I've never felt like other parents were questioning my choices.
(The la leche folks being, um, the exception that proves the rule. Hoo boy.)
posted by gerstle at 7:51 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, this is my experience as well. I've found interactions with other parents to be much more supportive and less judgmental than just random interactions with people I meet in other ways -- there's like an in-the-trenches-together mindset. People have each other's back. I've worked, stayed home, breast fed, formula fed, tube fed, Mcdonald's fed, and I've never felt like other parents were questioning my choices.
(The la leche folks being, um, the exception that proves the rule. Hoo boy.)
posted by gerstle at 7:51 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have a loathing for any advertising that manipulates already stressed out new parents, no matter how laughably they attempt to frame their product. This entire concept of new parents being 'judged' is just idiotic. There's nothing I've read (in them thar baby-raising books I've been reading) so far that 'judges' a parent either way. It's a decision you make to keep your tiny human alive, that's what matters. Fuck Similac for even implying there's ONE MORE THING, the judgement of some nebulous 'others', to worry about.
(I'm a new parent, we are breastfeeding.)
posted by Catblack at 8:10 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
(I'm a new parent, we are breastfeeding.)
posted by Catblack at 8:10 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I compared this earlier to the Dove Real Beauty campaign for a reason.
It's the same director.
No doubt this is advertising, but I like that it exposes this maternal guilt/mommy wars/my-way-worked-for-me-therefore-if-you-do-something-different-you're-literally-killing-your-kid dynamic that seems particularly toxic right now due to the internet. If you or a very close friend have been pregnant in the past 5-10 years, then you're intimately aware of it. But if you haven't been exposed to it, you might not realize how these small comments and well-meaning opinions/judgments from complete strangers form the background radiation of pregnancy and motherhood. To me, it's more like the Run Like a Girl ads from Always- yes, it's an ad, yes, there are issues with it, but there are a lot of people, particularly men, who have never thought about the problems highlighted in that ad and the style of the commercial helps build empathy and maybe makes a few people say less hurtful things.
posted by melissasaurus at 8:31 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
It's the same director.
No doubt this is advertising, but I like that it exposes this maternal guilt/mommy wars/my-way-worked-for-me-therefore-if-you-do-something-different-you're-literally-killing-your-kid dynamic that seems particularly toxic right now due to the internet. If you or a very close friend have been pregnant in the past 5-10 years, then you're intimately aware of it. But if you haven't been exposed to it, you might not realize how these small comments and well-meaning opinions/judgments from complete strangers form the background radiation of pregnancy and motherhood. To me, it's more like the Run Like a Girl ads from Always- yes, it's an ad, yes, there are issues with it, but there are a lot of people, particularly men, who have never thought about the problems highlighted in that ad and the style of the commercial helps build empathy and maybe makes a few people say less hurtful things.
posted by melissasaurus at 8:31 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't mean to sound like I'm a lobbyist for Big Formula, I'm just venting about how breastfeeding has been a challenge for me, and it's even more frustrating because when I was pregnant I got an earful from the LLL peoples who insisted breastfeeding doesn't hurt, you'll always have enough, it's the most natural way, baby will have less gas and stomach issues etc and that hasn't come true for me. And in the early days when my kid was losing weight due to medical and breastfeeding issues, I actually did feel guilty for "giving in" and topping up with formula, and it was the LLL peoples who contributed to that guilt by advocating "not one drop" of formula lest I forever alter baby's gut bacteria. So the video wasn't wrong - breastfeeding advocates can be very extremist. Formula was there to cover the gaps in the early days and I'm glad it was available. And I resent being made to feel guilty for using it.
People who are mocking the idea of a evil breastmilk lobby or pretend that there really aren't any judgements of women who use formula are ignoring things like this. I have a family member with serious anxiety issues who breastfed to the detriment of her and her family's mental health because of the judgmental crap shoveled out by La Leche League and their ilk. As far as freedom or ease, I've had friends who vastly preferred breastfeeding because it was easier--no bottles to wash! But there's also a serious problem when women are expected to be available to their children every two hours for the first year or two lest they be judged to be bad mothers. Women, like men, don't always want that primary caretaker, on-call-all-the-time role. It's oppressive to expect women to breastfeed unless they can justify formula as a physical necessity. If a woman wants to use formula because it lets her get her life back, there is nothing wrong with that (except to the evil breastmilk lobby who make women feel like shit if they can't or won't breastfeed).
posted by Mavri at 8:51 PM on October 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
People who are mocking the idea of a evil breastmilk lobby or pretend that there really aren't any judgements of women who use formula are ignoring things like this. I have a family member with serious anxiety issues who breastfed to the detriment of her and her family's mental health because of the judgmental crap shoveled out by La Leche League and their ilk. As far as freedom or ease, I've had friends who vastly preferred breastfeeding because it was easier--no bottles to wash! But there's also a serious problem when women are expected to be available to their children every two hours for the first year or two lest they be judged to be bad mothers. Women, like men, don't always want that primary caretaker, on-call-all-the-time role. It's oppressive to expect women to breastfeed unless they can justify formula as a physical necessity. If a woman wants to use formula because it lets her get her life back, there is nothing wrong with that (except to the evil breastmilk lobby who make women feel like shit if they can't or won't breastfeed).
posted by Mavri at 8:51 PM on October 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
Good god, the makers of Similac don't get a say in this non-debate. This is seriously just some giant shitty company seeing something to leverage out of these "mommy-wars" that they helped invent in the first place.
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 9:06 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 9:06 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I am currently 34 weeks pregnant with my second child. (The first got a combination of breast milk and formula during the course of his first year.)
I also currently have as nasty, obvious cold. I was asked multiple times today why I did not take a sick day. Each time, I replied because we don't have paid maternity leave.
I am extremely fortunate to be able to use a combination of sick and vacation to take several weeks off when the baby is born, but I have to save up those days. My husband is a stay at home dad, so taking unpaid leave is not an option. I also have my own office with a door and the financial means to rent a good pump.
What I really wanted to tell my coworkers today was that each sick day I take now means one more day of sitting in my office with my breasts in a machine barely eeking out enough milk wishing I was home feeding my baby later.
Let's not pretend that to breastfeed or formula feed is just a choice that women (in the US) make even under the best of circumstances.
I am with GuyZero. Until formula companies start lobbying for better maternity leave policies, they need to STFU about the "choices" women make.
posted by zanybutterfly at 9:16 PM on October 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
I also currently have as nasty, obvious cold. I was asked multiple times today why I did not take a sick day. Each time, I replied because we don't have paid maternity leave.
I am extremely fortunate to be able to use a combination of sick and vacation to take several weeks off when the baby is born, but I have to save up those days. My husband is a stay at home dad, so taking unpaid leave is not an option. I also have my own office with a door and the financial means to rent a good pump.
What I really wanted to tell my coworkers today was that each sick day I take now means one more day of sitting in my office with my breasts in a machine barely eeking out enough milk wishing I was home feeding my baby later.
Let's not pretend that to breastfeed or formula feed is just a choice that women (in the US) make even under the best of circumstances.
I am with GuyZero. Until formula companies start lobbying for better maternity leave policies, they need to STFU about the "choices" women make.
posted by zanybutterfly at 9:16 PM on October 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
I don't think formula companies are responsible for mommy wars, or at least not by themselves. I'm sure many breastfeeding advocates have very noble intentions for wanting people to breastfeed, but their message ultimately gets filtered down to all the jerks in the general public who fill my Facebook feed with messages like "I don't understand why women would feed their babies CHEMICALS when nature designed us to create the perfect food for babies" or "formula feeding moms are just lazy."
posted by Teeth of the Hydra at 9:50 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Teeth of the Hydra at 9:50 PM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
... who fill my Facebook feed with messages like "I don't understand why women would feed their babies CHEMICALS when nature designed us to create the perfect food for babies"
I find those sentiments so funny since the person clearly hasn't done any reading about this "perfect" food
- HIV can be transmitted from mother to child via - you guessed it - breastmilk
- cow milk proteins can be passed via breastmilk & irritate baby's stomach if baby is allergic
- over supply of breastmilk can mean green frothy poo for baby (too much foremilk not enough hindmilk) (so much for the ideal balanced food!)
Again, I'm not anti breastmilk (I'm posting this at 1am bc I just finished a feed) but hot damn people need to calm down, it's not magic and formula isn't poison.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:11 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
I find those sentiments so funny since the person clearly hasn't done any reading about this "perfect" food
- HIV can be transmitted from mother to child via - you guessed it - breastmilk
- cow milk proteins can be passed via breastmilk & irritate baby's stomach if baby is allergic
- over supply of breastmilk can mean green frothy poo for baby (too much foremilk not enough hindmilk) (so much for the ideal balanced food!)
Again, I'm not anti breastmilk (I'm posting this at 1am bc I just finished a feed) but hot damn people need to calm down, it's not magic and formula isn't poison.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:11 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
People who think breast is best are judgy judgers who judge you!
That was my personal experience, absolutely.
Rather than run down every petty, judgmental and deliberately inflammatory thing lactivists said to me, I'll just note that it's far easier to bully women one-on-one than it is to do the hard and slow work of advocating for necessary legislative and cultural change to ensure that breastfeeding/pumping is a realistic and attainable alternative for women in all walks of life.
posted by sobell at 10:50 PM on October 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
That was my personal experience, absolutely.
Rather than run down every petty, judgmental and deliberately inflammatory thing lactivists said to me, I'll just note that it's far easier to bully women one-on-one than it is to do the hard and slow work of advocating for necessary legislative and cultural change to ensure that breastfeeding/pumping is a realistic and attainable alternative for women in all walks of life.
posted by sobell at 10:50 PM on October 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I find this thread pretty interesting reading as the proverbial American expat in Italy. I breastfed my first until 22 months and hoo boy I was judged to hell and back by everyone, flat out telling me I would spoil my child. The cultural norm here seems to be breast feed until 6 months then ween. Some will continue breastfeeding until a year, but those who continue after that are fairly rare.
With the exception of the ward nurses at birth, the infamous LL nazis* seems to be scarcer on the ground here; formula feeding is pretty common and not seen as a big deal.
with my second I had one nurse grab my tit and my baby's head and try to smoosh them together when I rang for assistance with what appeared to be colic or gastro distress. I barely refrained from bitch slapping her, informing her that it wasn't my first time at the rodeo and her latch was fine. She still looked dubious when my roommate chimed in to corroborate that peanut #2 had been nursing all day. I think I might have called her a C*** under my breath, which I intellectually feel bad about, but holy hell I feel all GRARy just thinking about it.
posted by romakimmy at 10:54 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
With the exception of the ward nurses at birth, the infamous LL nazis* seems to be scarcer on the ground here; formula feeding is pretty common and not seen as a big deal.
with my second I had one nurse grab my tit and my baby's head and try to smoosh them together when I rang for assistance with what appeared to be colic or gastro distress. I barely refrained from bitch slapping her, informing her that it wasn't my first time at the rodeo and her latch was fine. She still looked dubious when my roommate chimed in to corroborate that peanut #2 had been nursing all day. I think I might have called her a C*** under my breath, which I intellectually feel bad about, but holy hell I feel all GRARy just thinking about it.
posted by romakimmy at 10:54 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not to mention that breastmilk is contaminated with chemicals. We live in a toxic environment and our bodies are contaminated with toxic solvents and flame retardants from the environment, which are present in breast milk (e.g., toluene, trichloroethylene, 1,1,1-trichloroethane, xylene....). Nursing moms are literally feeding their babies toxic chemicals. The medical consensus is that the levels are low enough that the benefits of breastmilk outweigh the risk from toxins - but this rhetoric from LLL types that breastmilk is some magic elixir of purity where as formula is nothing but an industrial chemical is ridiculous. Further, many new moms have medications they must take for chronic health conditions. Doctors say the medicine is excreted in breastmilk, but there are no studies on what effect it might have. Again, the advice is often that the benefits of breastfeeding outweigh the risks from the medication, but there is no real data either way. This debate cannot be rationally framed as "pure, natural breastmilk" v. "evil, chemical formula."
posted by Mallenroh at 10:57 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Mallenroh at 10:57 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Formula companies have a lot to benefit from framing discussions about infant feeding as just women bitchily attacking each other over something that doesn't really matter anyway. That might empower us when it comes to telling Great Aunt Irene to put a sock in it about how her grandkid's fed, but it's doing something different when it comes to discussions of, e.g., changing hospital practices to make breastfeeding work more smoothly for women who want to do it. And it becomes a vicious cycle where the more judgement we believe there is about X topic, the more likely we are to see anything said about X as judgemental. Like, a study about how breastfeeding has Y benefits on a population level is not judging anyone (although Great Aunt Irene might be if she prints it out and waves it at you), but every single time a study like that gets picked up by the press, there's a huge backlash of followups and op-eds about what about women who can't breastfeed or don't want to breastfeed why are you judging them why is this getting published just to make women feel bad we should not print things like this!
I know studies in the press can indeed make women feel bad. I feel pretty bad every time something about nutrition in pregnancy hits the press - I'd planned to eat so wonderfully when I was pregnant, and didn't, and I don't mean my diet was non-ideal but the absolute best alternative in the way formula is, I mean I ended up surviving on a diet of Coke, fried eggs, potato scones and anti-sickness drugs for the whole thing. I did the best I could, my child's fine, but still, every time... I mean, there was a BBC article about long-term effects in health based on mother's diet during pregnancy a couple of weeks ago which I forwarded to my husband with ":(" as the subject line because I still feel so miserable about it. Still, I appreciate that there is a place in discourse around public health for discussions about nutrition in pregnancy, and it's not done to shame me. And while I do appreciate feeling supported in my own situation, especially in the face of medical professionals not being very supportive at all, I like to think I'd still be sceptical if the voice telling me "hey, caffeine is not a problem! Caffeine is great! Everyone should just shut up telling you caffeine matters at all! Let's all just hug it out and stop talking about caffeine!" was coming from Coca-Cola.
And sure, there are women who are shitty about other women using formula, in the same way that there are women who are shitty about other women breastfeeding. (Truly, there are - try to find one discussion about, say, breastfeeding in public that doesn't have comments from someone comparing it to urinating or defecating.) But before I had a baby, I was led to expect that there were huge and powerful armies of breastfeeders going round practically smacking bottles out of people's hands, and I was mostly unaware of any kind of movement to increase support for women who do/want to breastfeed by pushing against cultural or practical barriers that make it more difficult, and it was quite eye-opening to see that there was very little of the former and a huge amount of the latter.
It was World Breastfeeding Week a while ago, and there was a movement as part of that where women posted selfies of themselves breastfeeding on Facebook or wherever. Not pictures with captions about how formula is poison, or pictures with photoshopped haloes. Just pictures of themselves breastfeeding their children. And that got a huge amount of backlash, about how this was shaming and pressuring and judging and formula isn't poison stop attacking women who use formula! That is just insane.*
(Plus, the whole 'mommy wars' thing is fucking insulting anyway. It's like proper wars, but for mommies! So it's all trivial and catty, because we all know that women only talk about trivial and catty things. Gah.)
So thanks, Similac, but I'll pass on your latest effort to shovel coal on the flames of a fire that doesn't even need to be burning in the first place.
* I say 'them', not 'us', because I didn't do it. Partly because I worried that I would indeed make someone feel bad, partly because my kid is older than 1 now and I didn't want people to think I was a freak. Sigh.
posted by Catseye at 12:53 AM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
I know studies in the press can indeed make women feel bad. I feel pretty bad every time something about nutrition in pregnancy hits the press - I'd planned to eat so wonderfully when I was pregnant, and didn't, and I don't mean my diet was non-ideal but the absolute best alternative in the way formula is, I mean I ended up surviving on a diet of Coke, fried eggs, potato scones and anti-sickness drugs for the whole thing. I did the best I could, my child's fine, but still, every time... I mean, there was a BBC article about long-term effects in health based on mother's diet during pregnancy a couple of weeks ago which I forwarded to my husband with ":(" as the subject line because I still feel so miserable about it. Still, I appreciate that there is a place in discourse around public health for discussions about nutrition in pregnancy, and it's not done to shame me. And while I do appreciate feeling supported in my own situation, especially in the face of medical professionals not being very supportive at all, I like to think I'd still be sceptical if the voice telling me "hey, caffeine is not a problem! Caffeine is great! Everyone should just shut up telling you caffeine matters at all! Let's all just hug it out and stop talking about caffeine!" was coming from Coca-Cola.
And sure, there are women who are shitty about other women using formula, in the same way that there are women who are shitty about other women breastfeeding. (Truly, there are - try to find one discussion about, say, breastfeeding in public that doesn't have comments from someone comparing it to urinating or defecating.) But before I had a baby, I was led to expect that there were huge and powerful armies of breastfeeders going round practically smacking bottles out of people's hands, and I was mostly unaware of any kind of movement to increase support for women who do/want to breastfeed by pushing against cultural or practical barriers that make it more difficult, and it was quite eye-opening to see that there was very little of the former and a huge amount of the latter.
It was World Breastfeeding Week a while ago, and there was a movement as part of that where women posted selfies of themselves breastfeeding on Facebook or wherever. Not pictures with captions about how formula is poison, or pictures with photoshopped haloes. Just pictures of themselves breastfeeding their children. And that got a huge amount of backlash, about how this was shaming and pressuring and judging and formula isn't poison stop attacking women who use formula! That is just insane.*
(Plus, the whole 'mommy wars' thing is fucking insulting anyway. It's like proper wars, but for mommies! So it's all trivial and catty, because we all know that women only talk about trivial and catty things. Gah.)
So thanks, Similac, but I'll pass on your latest effort to shovel coal on the flames of a fire that doesn't even need to be burning in the first place.
* I say 'them', not 'us', because I didn't do it. Partly because I worried that I would indeed make someone feel bad, partly because my kid is older than 1 now and I didn't want people to think I was a freak. Sigh.
posted by Catseye at 12:53 AM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
Also I don't begrudge a company from trying to convince me to buy its product, explaining why their option is easier/better/safer than the alternatives. I'm not freaking out over Big Diaper telling me disposables are more convenient than cloth. Baby gotta shit somewhere. Nor is it evil for the company itself to give employees cases of formula when they have a baby - if I worked for Carter Kids I'd expect a bag of baby clothes as a bonus perk.
Where this debate changes tunes is that once you stop breastfeeding you can't go back. You can't bf one month, formula the next, then go back to the breast. And everyone including Big Formula knows this. That's where it gets really fraught and I had heard about situations where formula companies would get women in developing nations hooked on free formula and then charge once their milk dries up. That is pure evil. So there is an ethical line to walk - as others have said it must truly be a choice to formula feed and not being boxed in a corner by social policies or actions of the formula company itself. I met an elderly woman at my OB's office who said in her day doctors gave her a pill to dry her up even though she wanted to breastfeed and that's really sad. And it's absolutely true that breastfeeding is more luxury in this day and age because of maternity leave policies although I'm in Canada myself and am currently benefitting from the generous options here.
Mallenroh - I forgot the chemical contaminants in my list, good point. I do wonder if the reduction in breast cancer rates for breastfeeding women are because women are removing chemicals that would otherwise build up in their system... scary thought and I sure hope not!!
I'm posting a lot here because I have lots of opinions having recently gone through the whole gamut myself (I have another lactation consultant appointment tomorrow! Fourth time is the charm? Wish me luck ie a skilled consultant) but I hope I'm not taking the air out of the room by doing so. It's just not so black and white as Big Formula vs Precious Bodily Fluids and personally I liked the video, sure it's advertising but it wasn't too far off the mark from my experiences with it although as I mentioned before it didn't show the "because I just didn't want to breastfeed anymore" point of view, that would have sent the wrong message for them so if course they avoided it! Nor did they include the "because sometimes I need a top up" camp which surely exist. They wanted it to be "aww motherhood, warm fuzzies and challenges, amirite ladies?" which is a whole other metafilter post.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:31 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Where this debate changes tunes is that once you stop breastfeeding you can't go back. You can't bf one month, formula the next, then go back to the breast. And everyone including Big Formula knows this. That's where it gets really fraught and I had heard about situations where formula companies would get women in developing nations hooked on free formula and then charge once their milk dries up. That is pure evil. So there is an ethical line to walk - as others have said it must truly be a choice to formula feed and not being boxed in a corner by social policies or actions of the formula company itself. I met an elderly woman at my OB's office who said in her day doctors gave her a pill to dry her up even though she wanted to breastfeed and that's really sad. And it's absolutely true that breastfeeding is more luxury in this day and age because of maternity leave policies although I'm in Canada myself and am currently benefitting from the generous options here.
Mallenroh - I forgot the chemical contaminants in my list, good point. I do wonder if the reduction in breast cancer rates for breastfeeding women are because women are removing chemicals that would otherwise build up in their system... scary thought and I sure hope not!!
I'm posting a lot here because I have lots of opinions having recently gone through the whole gamut myself (I have another lactation consultant appointment tomorrow! Fourth time is the charm? Wish me luck ie a skilled consultant) but I hope I'm not taking the air out of the room by doing so. It's just not so black and white as Big Formula vs Precious Bodily Fluids and personally I liked the video, sure it's advertising but it wasn't too far off the mark from my experiences with it although as I mentioned before it didn't show the "because I just didn't want to breastfeed anymore" point of view, that would have sent the wrong message for them so if course they avoided it! Nor did they include the "because sometimes I need a top up" camp which surely exist. They wanted it to be "aww motherhood, warm fuzzies and challenges, amirite ladies?" which is a whole other metafilter post.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:31 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sara C.: See, it's things like this where I start feeling like, you know, at some point you have to take ownership of your own choices and just stop worrying so much that somebody might be judging you. It's not the entire rest of the world's responsibility to make you feel secure in your choices. Breastfeed or not, it is absolutely immaterial to me. But to suggest that science is "judgmental" is bullshit, I'm sorry, and if it really seems that way, something way bigger than "how to feed a hypothetical infant" is going on.The framing of this "debate" as being between plucky mothers who just want whats best for everyone else's children too and multinational corporations who just want to sell more formula is ridiculous. The global breast pumps market, which was valued at US $1.1 bn in 2013, will likely expand by 2020 and rise to US $2.6 bn by 2020, with the A.C.A. regulations requiring insurance to cover the cost of breast pumps. The breast-feeding accessory market is also worth at least that much and for a generation has been manipulatively evangelical while formula companies have been largely silent.
(I'm also pretty sure that it's the formula companies that are pushing this "everybody has to make you feel like you made the right choice, or THEY'RE EVIL" idea, in the first place. I heard an interview on NPR earlier this week with a woman who was pretty obviously a formula company employee, on this very topic, and it was full of this same rhetoric.)
Large publicly funded efforts with the statistical power to say meaningful things have largely found either various statistically significant but marginal effects with sensible-ish theoretical models to support them, or failed to find those marginal effects, but the only reason we constantly hear about the MASSIVE IMPORTANT MIRACLE of breast-feeding is the tireless efforts of companies like Medela and Prolacta Bioscience. While the scheme of funding worthlessly underpowered studies designed to find effects that aren't there, publishing them somehow, and then sending journalists with deadlines pre-written articles on those studies is not an original way to build a market for things companies are ready to sell us, it is a really effective way to manipulate conversations exactly like this one. The idea that our precious bodily fluids are vital to our childrens' health isn't just a flimsy justification for way too much fucking abuse, its also a defectively manufactured concept that we're being sold and that we should reject.
There certainly is "something way bigger than how to feed a hypothetical infant is going on," and its the rampant misogyny running all the way down this thread. While the evidence available for benefits of breastfeeding can support the assertion that it is probably marginally better for both mother and child to breast feed in contexts where it is biologically and logistically convenient, it absolutely cannot support even judging women who could but don't feel like it. I mean, Sara C., just read the end of your comment back to yourself. Your contempt for women who don't want to feel ashamed for taking control of their own bodies as they feel is best to do for whatever fucking reason is just dripping from it.
We can do better here.
posted by Blasdelb at 3:44 AM on October 23, 2015 [20 favorites]
Regardless, if a activist campaign is being called especially judgmental by new mothers, easily the most relentlessly judged and scrutinized demographic in America today having just survived lugging around a bowling ball sized symbol of how much everyone around them owns their bodies for half a year, one would think that it'd be wise to shut up and listen - if only for a moment.
posted by Blasdelb at 3:55 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Blasdelb at 3:55 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I do think this one issue where one woman's truth defines her needs- and if you can dismantle her personal truth-- either that she needs accommodations for breastfeeding or for formula- the one that wins by societies standards is formula since it's easier to sell formula than the structurally support moms taking long maternity leave, bringing babies to work, working part time, working from home etc etc.
The problem with making all women accept "formula is not a big deal" is that it negates the reasons a lot of women are working hard to do breastfeeding. Mocking them for valuing silly bodily fluid is really disrespectful as well blasdelb.
There are not only hurt feelings that happen in these conversations but real harms and injuries happening to real women depending on how we define these conversations.
Women who are seeking to prove their breastfeeding matters shouldn't HAVE to put their baby in daycare at 6 weeks, become a scientist and overworked and never see their kid, in order to prove that bonding and nursing actually matters once they've already endured that injury. Situationally it can't happen for some women and it's one thing among a sea of health variables.
I was bottle fed and I have a lot of health problems. Do I think that both supporting my struggling mom emotionally and financially, supporting her with keeping me, and helping her nurse would have been better for my health? Yes.
But when you disregarding the process of bonding and nursing and anyone trying to prove it matters as laughable and not doing science right you are disregarding real women's definition of their lives and relationships and the needs they have around them.
And moms who do value being home with their kids and nursing relationships having a very powerful obstacle to participating the science you use to mock and discredit them.
posted by xarnop at 4:52 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
The problem with making all women accept "formula is not a big deal" is that it negates the reasons a lot of women are working hard to do breastfeeding. Mocking them for valuing silly bodily fluid is really disrespectful as well blasdelb.
There are not only hurt feelings that happen in these conversations but real harms and injuries happening to real women depending on how we define these conversations.
Women who are seeking to prove their breastfeeding matters shouldn't HAVE to put their baby in daycare at 6 weeks, become a scientist and overworked and never see their kid, in order to prove that bonding and nursing actually matters once they've already endured that injury. Situationally it can't happen for some women and it's one thing among a sea of health variables.
I was bottle fed and I have a lot of health problems. Do I think that both supporting my struggling mom emotionally and financially, supporting her with keeping me, and helping her nurse would have been better for my health? Yes.
But when you disregarding the process of bonding and nursing and anyone trying to prove it matters as laughable and not doing science right you are disregarding real women's definition of their lives and relationships and the needs they have around them.
And moms who do value being home with their kids and nursing relationships having a very powerful obstacle to participating the science you use to mock and discredit them.
posted by xarnop at 4:52 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I guess what I mean is, those of us fighting against the push to do nothing to support bonding are suffering the very real trauma of being disempowered to define our families as we seek. And it takes WORK to support moms being able to spend time with their babies and nurse them.
Anytime you are asking your community to do work to support your needs it helps if you an demonstrate why this is helpful.
So when some women need everyone to agree formula is just the same or their feelings with be hurt and other women need it to be acknowledged that breastfeeding can have health benefits and they have valid reasons for needing accomodations to do this with their families, the too campaigns can actually injure women on either side of this, and I think unwanted maternal separation is a more serious and real harm occurring to women then having hurt feelings.
I want to address both, because both matter, but when you see people fighting really hard to demonstrate that breastfeeding matters it's because the stakes are so high and so much real trauma and injury has happened to women forced to endure maternal-infant separation before they felt they or their child were ready.
In non-human mammals maternal separation is so serious that it's used as a model to create trauma and adversity in infants and to test models of mental illness.
That's how well known this is as an issue even among scientists.
But suddenly when WOMEN start talking about why it matters they are considered silly and irrelevant and foofy if they haven't achieved the same academic achievement because they were busy focusing on being moms.
posted by xarnop at 4:58 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Anytime you are asking your community to do work to support your needs it helps if you an demonstrate why this is helpful.
So when some women need everyone to agree formula is just the same or their feelings with be hurt and other women need it to be acknowledged that breastfeeding can have health benefits and they have valid reasons for needing accomodations to do this with their families, the too campaigns can actually injure women on either side of this, and I think unwanted maternal separation is a more serious and real harm occurring to women then having hurt feelings.
I want to address both, because both matter, but when you see people fighting really hard to demonstrate that breastfeeding matters it's because the stakes are so high and so much real trauma and injury has happened to women forced to endure maternal-infant separation before they felt they or their child were ready.
In non-human mammals maternal separation is so serious that it's used as a model to create trauma and adversity in infants and to test models of mental illness.
That's how well known this is as an issue even among scientists.
But suddenly when WOMEN start talking about why it matters they are considered silly and irrelevant and foofy if they haven't achieved the same academic achievement because they were busy focusing on being moms.
posted by xarnop at 4:58 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think breast v formula as a women's issue pales in comparison to adequate paid parental leave for all parents, and state subsidized quality child care. Such leave would have the knock on effect of making breastfeeding easier for mothers who want to do it, but would benefit all families, across the board. I just can't make myself care about breastfeeding as much as I care about that.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:26 AM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:26 AM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
I don't get the connection between bonding and breastfeeding. This idea that people should breastfeed as a way to bond with their baby gets stated as a fact, even by people who are supposedly supportive of formula feeding. Is there any meaningful difference in how moms bond with their babies based on feeding method? It seems like a damaging message to moms considering a majority will use formula at some point. Also, I don't think that extended maternity leave guarantees a higher rate of breastfeeding. I personally would love for moms and families to get more time off to bond with their kids but the idea that we should do it to because of breastfeeding kind of diminishes the other important ways moms and dads interact with their babies.
posted by Teeth of the Hydra at 5:43 AM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Teeth of the Hydra at 5:43 AM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
I've spent a lot of my life worrying about what other people think of me but thankfully, when I had my children, I didn't even give the smallest fuck .. no scratch that, it didn't even occur to me that I should give a fuck... about what people thought about my nutritional choices for my babies. You do what's right for you and *your* children. That's all you can do.
To anyone who dares to judge people on this kind of choice, if neglect is not in the picture then shut the fuck up and back the fuck off. Seriously.
posted by h00py at 5:46 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
To anyone who dares to judge people on this kind of choice, if neglect is not in the picture then shut the fuck up and back the fuck off. Seriously.
posted by h00py at 5:46 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I guess what I mean is, those of us fighting against the push to do nothing to support bonding are suffering the very real trauma of being disempowered to define our families as we seek.
Mothers who don't breastfeed bond with their babies. Fathers bond with their babies. This sort of statement, implying that breastfeeding = bonding and not breastfeeding isn't, is exactly the kind of judgmental comment breastfeeding advocates need to drop. Of course women should have the time and space to breastfeed if they want to. But they should also have the freedom to return to work, to genuinely co-parent with a non-lactating co-parent, or to quit a process they find difficult and painful if they want to. And they should be able to do it without people implying they don't support bonding. You can advocate for generous parental leave policies and support breastfeeding without contributing to another minefield of judgment for women.
posted by Mavri at 5:47 AM on October 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
Mothers who don't breastfeed bond with their babies. Fathers bond with their babies. This sort of statement, implying that breastfeeding = bonding and not breastfeeding isn't, is exactly the kind of judgmental comment breastfeeding advocates need to drop. Of course women should have the time and space to breastfeed if they want to. But they should also have the freedom to return to work, to genuinely co-parent with a non-lactating co-parent, or to quit a process they find difficult and painful if they want to. And they should be able to do it without people implying they don't support bonding. You can advocate for generous parental leave policies and support breastfeeding without contributing to another minefield of judgment for women.
posted by Mavri at 5:47 AM on October 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
The problem with making all women accept "formula is not a big deal" is that it negates the reasons a lot of women are working hard to do breastfeeding.
It also in my experience leads to some non-fun conversations any time you have any problem at all with breastfeeding, because in a lot of people's minds - health professionals very much included - saying "yes, I know I could switch to formula, but I want to keep breastfeeding and that is important to me" puts you in Weirdo Lactivist Hippy territory. Because why on earth would you bother, unless you have some crazy/brainwashed/judgy ideas about why it matters?
(One of the most surreal experiences of my post-birth life was sitting in an infectious diseases unit with a bastard of a kidney infection, feverish and shivering and miserable, and trying to get the nurse to just please call the hospital pharmacist and find out if the antibiotic she wanted me to take was safe for breastfeeding, rather than just get me to agree to stop cold turkey. "No, look, I know babies thrive on formula, I'm just saying, it's important to me - yes I appreciate you think I could do with a break, that's kind, but I just, for me, I don't think stopping breastfeeding at this point is really what I want to do unless I have to, you know? So could you call the pharmacist? Please? I know formula's fine! I'm glad your baby was fine on formula! Please call the pharmacist.")
I believe very, very strongly in the rights of women over our own bodies, and that includes the right to breastfeed or not to breastfeed as we see fit. I don't think anyone needs a 'good' reason for breastfeeding beyond 'I don't want to'. I don't think formula is poison. I don't think any women should be judged, shamed, criticised, or in any way attacked for using formula. (I also think this should go without saying, really, but apparently it does not in this kind of conversation, so: there we are.)
I also think women should get to say "breastfeeding matters to me", or "the right to breastfeed matters in general", or "I care about helping women who want to breastfeed to achieve their goals", or "I don't like formula companies undermining breastfeeding" and just have it accepted at that, without having to bend over backwards to assure everyone that we don't hate formula, we're not out to force anyone to breastfeed, we're not anti-feminist, and on and on.
This is a comment from the New York Times response piece that Ivan Fyodorovich linked above - the one that's apparently notable for how it doesn't contain any shaming of breastfeeding mothers:
posted by Catseye at 5:48 AM on October 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
It also in my experience leads to some non-fun conversations any time you have any problem at all with breastfeeding, because in a lot of people's minds - health professionals very much included - saying "yes, I know I could switch to formula, but I want to keep breastfeeding and that is important to me" puts you in Weirdo Lactivist Hippy territory. Because why on earth would you bother, unless you have some crazy/brainwashed/judgy ideas about why it matters?
(One of the most surreal experiences of my post-birth life was sitting in an infectious diseases unit with a bastard of a kidney infection, feverish and shivering and miserable, and trying to get the nurse to just please call the hospital pharmacist and find out if the antibiotic she wanted me to take was safe for breastfeeding, rather than just get me to agree to stop cold turkey. "No, look, I know babies thrive on formula, I'm just saying, it's important to me - yes I appreciate you think I could do with a break, that's kind, but I just, for me, I don't think stopping breastfeeding at this point is really what I want to do unless I have to, you know? So could you call the pharmacist? Please? I know formula's fine! I'm glad your baby was fine on formula! Please call the pharmacist.")
I believe very, very strongly in the rights of women over our own bodies, and that includes the right to breastfeed or not to breastfeed as we see fit. I don't think anyone needs a 'good' reason for breastfeeding beyond 'I don't want to'. I don't think formula is poison. I don't think any women should be judged, shamed, criticised, or in any way attacked for using formula. (I also think this should go without saying, really, but apparently it does not in this kind of conversation, so: there we are.)
I also think women should get to say "breastfeeding matters to me", or "the right to breastfeed matters in general", or "I care about helping women who want to breastfeed to achieve their goals", or "I don't like formula companies undermining breastfeeding" and just have it accepted at that, without having to bend over backwards to assure everyone that we don't hate formula, we're not out to force anyone to breastfeed, we're not anti-feminist, and on and on.
This is a comment from the New York Times response piece that Ivan Fyodorovich linked above - the one that's apparently notable for how it doesn't contain any shaming of breastfeeding mothers:
The breast-feeding movement is an anti-feminist, anti-woman backlash that believes that because of biology women should stay at home with children while men go out and earn money. Needless to say, many of these sanctimonious stay-at-home moms are “kept women,” married to very high earners.Yeah. Lovely. Thanks for that.
posted by Catseye at 5:48 AM on October 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
It seems like a damaging message to moms considering a majority will use formula at some point.
It's also a damaging message that undermines attempts to support equal parental leave for non-birth parents, and undermines attempts to equalize the currently wildly inequitable parenting models where the vast majority of the burden falls on the mother.
posted by Mavri at 5:51 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's also a damaging message that undermines attempts to support equal parental leave for non-birth parents, and undermines attempts to equalize the currently wildly inequitable parenting models where the vast majority of the burden falls on the mother.
posted by Mavri at 5:51 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
So when some women need everyone to agree formula is just the same or their feelings with be hurt and other women need it to be acknowledged that breastfeeding can have health benefits and they have valid reasons for needing accomodations to do this with their families, the too campaigns can actually injure women on either side of this, and I think unwanted maternal separation is a more serious and real harm occurring to women then having hurt feelings.I think you've really elegantly described just why this is so important for so many people.
However, breastfeeding doesn't need to prevent obesity, asthma, allergies, dental cavities or ADD to matter, and woman's choice to breastfeed doesn't need to be justified by the unsupportable claims of dramatic health benefits that dominate media coverage of breastfeeding. Breastfeeding matters to a lot of people for a lot of different human and inherently valuable reasons. Honestly, at least in terms of affecting measurable outcomes when confounding variables are controlled for, we can empirically demonstrate that "formula is not a big deal" particularly compared to other kinds of much easier interventions that we don't give any shits about. What this means is that for parents who use formula for the huge array of reasons to use it, breastfeeding doesn't have to be a big deal, what it doesn't mean is that breastfeeding can't be a big deal for the women its meaningful for.
"Formula is not a big deal" doesn't mean that breastfeeding is not a big deal, which is good because formula really isn't that big of a deal.
posted by Blasdelb at 5:56 AM on October 23, 2015
I had a horrific first few weeks breastfeeding. Horrific. The words "blister" and "nipple" should never appear next to one another. So much pain. Nights where I was literally covered in tears, blood and milk. I had a great IBCLC working out of my pediatrician's office but some babies just suck (heh) at nursing when they're first borned. And yeah, I was hesitant to tell people what a hard time I was having because I knew what I was doing would seem completely insane. Why put myself through all that? I'm not even sure I could have answered that question adequately, because I'm not anti-formula at all (I was a 70's baby through-and-through, formula-fed 100%). It was probably just that pregnancy and birth is so wildly out of one's control (and my birth experience was a hoped-for unmedicated birth turned into a very necessary and very traumatic emergency c-section), breastfeeding was something I could actively choose to do and I'd be damned if I was going to go gentle into that goodnight.
It wasn't about bonding (I'm not the soft-focus staring-for-hours-at-my-baby kind of mom and never was) or about health benefits, it was really just me being bloody-minded. But it was my choice to be bloody-minded, and in the end I am glad I stuck it out because dammit, I did that. I nursed for 14 months (returned to work at 8 weeks, but worked from home 2 days a week until 1 year old). And good lord was I ready to get back to work. Hanging out with a baby alone all day was so boring.
Arguments about bonding are harmful to fathers, women who choose not to breastfeed or who cannot, and adoptive parents. It's not about bonding. It is about a choice that women make that can be supported by policies that would also support fathers, non-breastfeeding birth-parents, and adoptive parents. That's the big picture.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:04 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
It wasn't about bonding (I'm not the soft-focus staring-for-hours-at-my-baby kind of mom and never was) or about health benefits, it was really just me being bloody-minded. But it was my choice to be bloody-minded, and in the end I am glad I stuck it out because dammit, I did that. I nursed for 14 months (returned to work at 8 weeks, but worked from home 2 days a week until 1 year old). And good lord was I ready to get back to work. Hanging out with a baby alone all day was so boring.
Arguments about bonding are harmful to fathers, women who choose not to breastfeed or who cannot, and adoptive parents. It's not about bonding. It is about a choice that women make that can be supported by policies that would also support fathers, non-breastfeeding birth-parents, and adoptive parents. That's the big picture.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:04 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
"It's also a damaging message that undermines attempts to support equal parental leave for non-birth parents"
Oookay--- and it's also a damaging message to women whose children, like myself were literally riped out of my screaming arms because of attitudes like yours.
Maternal infant separation can be ripping apart and ALREADY EXISTING bond. That doesn't always happen, but when it does, it's a very different issue than building a bond with a father.
That matters because you are claiming that ripping my child from me doesn't matter because any caregiver will do, when my child was in my womb, feeling the rhythms of my body and my heart.
Your attitudes killed my motherhood. These attitudes destroyed me and the agony still burns within me.
No.
Paternal leave is not the same as maternity leave (unless it is a transgender parent) because we are not talking about a bond created in the womb that the body is created to sustain long after the birth. Destroying birthing people right to claim THIS SHIT FUCKING MATTERS so that people who don't care about it don't have to feel uncomfortable is horrific. It's not just damaging it is literally shredding the already existing bonds many mothers do have and want with their children and telling them that believing they have that bond is anti-feminist or anti-human rights.
It's messed UP.
posted by xarnop at 6:32 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oookay--- and it's also a damaging message to women whose children, like myself were literally riped out of my screaming arms because of attitudes like yours.
Maternal infant separation can be ripping apart and ALREADY EXISTING bond. That doesn't always happen, but when it does, it's a very different issue than building a bond with a father.
That matters because you are claiming that ripping my child from me doesn't matter because any caregiver will do, when my child was in my womb, feeling the rhythms of my body and my heart.
Your attitudes killed my motherhood. These attitudes destroyed me and the agony still burns within me.
No.
Paternal leave is not the same as maternity leave (unless it is a transgender parent) because we are not talking about a bond created in the womb that the body is created to sustain long after the birth. Destroying birthing people right to claim THIS SHIT FUCKING MATTERS so that people who don't care about it don't have to feel uncomfortable is horrific. It's not just damaging it is literally shredding the already existing bonds many mothers do have and want with their children and telling them that believing they have that bond is anti-feminist or anti-human rights.
It's messed UP.
posted by xarnop at 6:32 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
"That matters because you are claiming that ripping my child from me doesn't matter because any caregiver will do, when my child was in my womb, feeling the rhythms of my body and my heart."I don't think this is anything like what Mavri was saying.
posted by Blasdelb at 6:55 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yes but it still means the people I needed and so many women need to HEAR them, when they say "THIS BOND EXISTS AND I NEED TO BE WITH MY BABY" is getting stifled by the very people who need to hear and act on that message, however good intentioned the reasons for wanting to stifle the message are.
posted by xarnop at 6:58 AM on October 23, 2015
posted by xarnop at 6:58 AM on October 23, 2015
Telling women that discussing their bond with their children that can involve breastfeeding oppresses men and adoptive parents and women who are unable or don't want to breastfeeding is not what oppression is.
The people whose rights are being dismantled are not those using formula but those systemically unsupported with their needs around breastfeeding.
posted by xarnop at 7:01 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
The people whose rights are being dismantled are not those using formula but those systemically unsupported with their needs around breastfeeding.
posted by xarnop at 7:01 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I definitely can say that breastfeeding is not bonding, based on the way my kid screams bloody murder sometimes when a nipple comes near. I hate seeing him fuss so; some days he seems to hate my breast (me?). Other days he's a happy muncher. I'm waiting for us to find our breastfeeding relationship groove but it might not happen; I worry that it's so difficult for both of us, would he not just prefer formula and less feeding struggles? Honestly we bond more over diaper changes and bath time than feeding. But I still value my milk, I made it and it's mine (the saddest Peeps ever literally wept over spilled breastmilk, because of the effort it takes to pump it out).
Also I've lost 10lbs so far boo yeah !
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:03 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also I've lost 10lbs so far boo yeah !
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:03 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed. xarnop, I know this is something you have justifiably strong feelings about but we have talked before about not digging in super hard on the subject when it comes up and I need you to throttle back some in here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:05 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:05 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
"That matters because you are claiming that ripping my child from me doesn't matter because any caregiver will do, when my child was in my womb, feeling the rhythms of my body and my heart."
I don't think this is anything like what Mavri was saying.
No, it obviously wasn't. Advocating for parenting policies that encourage equitable co-parenting is not remotely like ripping children from their mothers. It's an over the top and dishonest distortion of what I said.
posted by Mavri at 7:49 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't think this is anything like what Mavri was saying.
No, it obviously wasn't. Advocating for parenting policies that encourage equitable co-parenting is not remotely like ripping children from their mothers. It's an over the top and dishonest distortion of what I said.
posted by Mavri at 7:49 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't get the connection between bonding and breastfeeding. This idea that people should breastfeed as a way to bond with their baby gets stated as a fact, even by people who are supposedly supportive of formula feeding. Is there any meaningful difference in how moms bond with their babies based on feeding method? It seems like a damaging message to moms considering a majority will use formula at some point. Also, I don't think that extended maternity leave guarantees a higher rate of breastfeeding. I personally would love for moms and families to get more time off to bond with their kids but the idea that we should do it to because of breastfeeding kind of diminishes the other important ways moms and dads interact with their babies.
Hmm. Okay. So.
Breastfeeding isn't necessary for bonding. My daughter and my husband are terrifically well-bonded. I know non-natal and breastfeeding parents alike who are wonderful and loving. I support any parents' right to feed their child in the way they want, to do with their bodies what they want.
But.
Breastfeeding, when it's going well, is a unique physical and chemical experience. Soupy and wonderful and loving. You get a massive rush of oxytocin during letdown. There are other ways to release oxytocin--any physical contact will do. But I've never felt anything quite like breastfeeding except for sex and drugs. And while I hate to mention sex, because people sexualize breastfeeding and it contributes to stigma about doing it, it's the closest analog I can think of, really. You can have amazing, loving, and supportive relationships without having sex. Sex is a choice that should be consensual. Everyone is in charge of their bodies, you know? No one needs to have sex to be a complete or fulfilled person. No one needs to breastfeed to be a good mother or parent.
But sex facilitates those relationships for many people. And breastfeeding can similarly facilitate bonding. They can be unique and valuable experiences in and of themselves. I've been breastfeeding for 21 months now, and the qualitative difference between breastfeeding a young infant and breastfeeding an older infant or toddler is huge. It's all gravy, no gristle now. But the vast majority of American women never experience this phase of breastfeeding, and, what's more, they rarely see or hear about it from other women. Even if they know other breastfeeders, it's an act largely done in secret because of social shame about breastfeeding toddlers and young children. So it's like, why do this thing that sucks? And breastfeeding can suck at first. But it doesn't always suck. It can also be really, really great.
I don't like hearing an intensely valuable and loving experience dismissed out of hand, frankly. But most people just see breastfeeding as best unnecessary and at worst gross. I get that a lot of people don't understand what's so special about it.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:55 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Hmm. Okay. So.
Breastfeeding isn't necessary for bonding. My daughter and my husband are terrifically well-bonded. I know non-natal and breastfeeding parents alike who are wonderful and loving. I support any parents' right to feed their child in the way they want, to do with their bodies what they want.
But.
Breastfeeding, when it's going well, is a unique physical and chemical experience. Soupy and wonderful and loving. You get a massive rush of oxytocin during letdown. There are other ways to release oxytocin--any physical contact will do. But I've never felt anything quite like breastfeeding except for sex and drugs. And while I hate to mention sex, because people sexualize breastfeeding and it contributes to stigma about doing it, it's the closest analog I can think of, really. You can have amazing, loving, and supportive relationships without having sex. Sex is a choice that should be consensual. Everyone is in charge of their bodies, you know? No one needs to have sex to be a complete or fulfilled person. No one needs to breastfeed to be a good mother or parent.
But sex facilitates those relationships for many people. And breastfeeding can similarly facilitate bonding. They can be unique and valuable experiences in and of themselves. I've been breastfeeding for 21 months now, and the qualitative difference between breastfeeding a young infant and breastfeeding an older infant or toddler is huge. It's all gravy, no gristle now. But the vast majority of American women never experience this phase of breastfeeding, and, what's more, they rarely see or hear about it from other women. Even if they know other breastfeeders, it's an act largely done in secret because of social shame about breastfeeding toddlers and young children. So it's like, why do this thing that sucks? And breastfeeding can suck at first. But it doesn't always suck. It can also be really, really great.
I don't like hearing an intensely valuable and loving experience dismissed out of hand, frankly. But most people just see breastfeeding as best unnecessary and at worst gross. I get that a lot of people don't understand what's so special about it.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:55 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
While I do think this is a choice that parents need to make, and one that shouldn't carry any stigma, let's not lose sight of the fact that this is not equivalent to the Dove adds.
This choice has medical outcome impacts. You can argue over the degree, but the science that breast feeding is beneficial is not controversial. Arguing that it is (modest v. High) allows Similac to "sell the controversy", which is reprehensible.
posted by herda05 at 8:58 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
This choice has medical outcome impacts. You can argue over the degree, but the science that breast feeding is beneficial is not controversial. Arguing that it is (modest v. High) allows Similac to "sell the controversy", which is reprehensible.
posted by herda05 at 8:58 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Couple more comments removed. xarnop, seriously, drop this now.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:59 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:59 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also the breastpump industry is an interesting thing. I'm on my first trip away after 21 months of breastfeeding on demand. I tried two pumps, electric and manual. I was in a nursing room in the Charlotte airport a little engorged and trying to squeeze out a few ounces and nothing was working. I could feel the milk, but the pump wasn't getting more than drops.
I started hand expressing, something my midwife had taught me how to do a few days postpartum. And in ten minutes I got 3 ounces. Those are 3 ounces that, if left in my boobs, could have contributed to plugged ducts or mastitis. If you leave yourself engorged, you can see decreasing supply. I've felt a little weird at this writing retreat whipping out my boobs and a jar and hand expressing but I'm regularly getting 3-4 ounces this way. Pumps seem more sanitary and proper, sterile even. But my body doesn't respond to them, apparently. I worry what would have happened had I just tried to pump. I know a lot of women with difficult relationships with their breastpumps, even though they can also be invaluable tools. And I've heard it said, though I haven't heard research, that women in countries who are taught hand expression often have oversupply problems rather than low supply problems, which are more common in the US (for a multitude of reasons).
Still, the breastpump industry is nothing compared to the formula industry.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:01 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I started hand expressing, something my midwife had taught me how to do a few days postpartum. And in ten minutes I got 3 ounces. Those are 3 ounces that, if left in my boobs, could have contributed to plugged ducts or mastitis. If you leave yourself engorged, you can see decreasing supply. I've felt a little weird at this writing retreat whipping out my boobs and a jar and hand expressing but I'm regularly getting 3-4 ounces this way. Pumps seem more sanitary and proper, sterile even. But my body doesn't respond to them, apparently. I worry what would have happened had I just tried to pump. I know a lot of women with difficult relationships with their breastpumps, even though they can also be invaluable tools. And I've heard it said, though I haven't heard research, that women in countries who are taught hand expression often have oversupply problems rather than low supply problems, which are more common in the US (for a multitude of reasons).
Still, the breastpump industry is nothing compared to the formula industry.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:01 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Holy shit PhoB, oxytocin is one hella drug. I don't even remotely get that feeling. I feel the tingly / painful letdown... And then my kid starts screaming bc the flow is too fast.
Sounds amazing tho... I'll have what she's having!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:34 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sounds amazing tho... I'll have what she's having!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:34 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it is ok to be honest about the benefits of breastfeeding not being all that big. i gave birth a few years back at a baby-friendly hospital and also took a breastfeeding class there. Theorrtically I was "educated" about infant feeding so I could make an "informed choice." But in reality I was given info that exaggerated breastfeedings benefits, warned me that even one drop of formula would ruin my breastfeeding relationship, implied that all breastfeeding problems could be overcome with the right support, and made no mention of the risks, downsides, or things that could go wrong. It was hardly an informed choice. We shouldn't be lying to women.
And I'm still not buying the idea that breastfeeding is important for bonding. I get that some people really dig it and oxytocin and all that stuff but I can't help but feel that there isn't any demonstrable real effect on the mom-baby relationship (and there are some women who have negative physical and emotional responses to let down, so the experience isn't necessarily universal).
posted by Teeth of the Hydra at 9:39 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
And I'm still not buying the idea that breastfeeding is important for bonding. I get that some people really dig it and oxytocin and all that stuff but I can't help but feel that there isn't any demonstrable real effect on the mom-baby relationship (and there are some women who have negative physical and emotional responses to let down, so the experience isn't necessarily universal).
posted by Teeth of the Hydra at 9:39 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
The thing is, the way U.S. working culture is set up, if you are able to nurse and/or pump in your first year, you are a mother who has a hell of a lot of privilege.
For example, a lot of women who are able to pump can easily chuck the milk in an office fridge; this is not the case in the official U.S. Army policy, which specifies that the breastfeeding mother is responsible for providing their own milk storage area and refrigeration. I get why in practice, but in a larger picture this points out the reality that not every woman who has the biological capacity for breastfeeding has a life or a job which will let her do that.
That's one thing that I see missing from the breast-vs-formula "debate" and from lactivists in general: the acknowledgement that the time, space and facilities in which to express milk or nurse are all incredible privileges.
And it remains a source of irritated bafflement for me that lactivists do not organize or lobby for broad, systemic changes -- i.e. give retail and hourly workers more protection than the 2010 "Break Time for Nursing Mothers" law, which does not protect the length of time needed to pump or a worker's ability to keep a reasonable number of hours around the unpaid breaks she needs for pumping.
The relentless positioning of nursing as something every woman could do if she just wanted to enough, and gosh, only uneducated people don't want a superior bond or to give their children benefits of "liquid gold," is not going to remove any of the privilege from breastfeeding. It only codifies it.
Breastfeeding in the U.S. is basically the Whole Foods of feed-your-baby choices: In theory, available to anyone who's sufficiently motivated and creative about working within constraints. In practice, out of reach for a wide variety of factors.
posted by sobell at 9:40 AM on October 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
For example, a lot of women who are able to pump can easily chuck the milk in an office fridge; this is not the case in the official U.S. Army policy, which specifies that the breastfeeding mother is responsible for providing their own milk storage area and refrigeration. I get why in practice, but in a larger picture this points out the reality that not every woman who has the biological capacity for breastfeeding has a life or a job which will let her do that.
That's one thing that I see missing from the breast-vs-formula "debate" and from lactivists in general: the acknowledgement that the time, space and facilities in which to express milk or nurse are all incredible privileges.
And it remains a source of irritated bafflement for me that lactivists do not organize or lobby for broad, systemic changes -- i.e. give retail and hourly workers more protection than the 2010 "Break Time for Nursing Mothers" law, which does not protect the length of time needed to pump or a worker's ability to keep a reasonable number of hours around the unpaid breaks she needs for pumping.
The relentless positioning of nursing as something every woman could do if she just wanted to enough, and gosh, only uneducated people don't want a superior bond or to give their children benefits of "liquid gold," is not going to remove any of the privilege from breastfeeding. It only codifies it.
Breastfeeding in the U.S. is basically the Whole Foods of feed-your-baby choices: In theory, available to anyone who's sufficiently motivated and creative about working within constraints. In practice, out of reach for a wide variety of factors.
posted by sobell at 9:40 AM on October 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
I never got that oxytocin bath either *kicks dirt* For both me and my kid, nursing was largely a business transaction and when we weaned, I don't think he even noticed (he was old enough to be drinking cow's milk out of cups at that point and as far as he was concerned, if it was a dairy product making its way into his belly, the details were irrelevant). And I know women who, on the entire other side of the coin, experience a profound and disturbing dysphoria at let down and had to stop nursing for the sake of their own mental health. Difficulty establishing the nursing relationship has also contributed to PPD in other friends of mine.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:42 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:42 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Can you tell which adults you interact with were breastfed and which were formula fed? No? Then it really doesn't matter.
posted by agregoli at 9:48 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 9:48 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
And I'm still not buying the idea that breastfeeding is important for bonding. I get that some people really dig it and oxytocin and all that stuff but I can't help but feel that there isn't any demonstrable real effect on the mom-baby relationship (and there are some women who have negative physical and emotional responses to let down, so the experience isn't necessarily universal).
Yeah, DMER. That's a thing. But a euphoric experience can be a thing, too. Hormones. Powerful. I do think there is a demonstrable effect on the mom-baby relationship, which is that it makes physical (not emotional) attachment more urgent for the mother and the child. This is often spoken of as a pure negative--you are tethered to your child! you aren't free!-- for me, with an oversupply, it was more, I don't want to be away from my child. Nursing feels good and druggy and wonderful and it stops my boobs from hurting and it makes her happy, too. Nursing creates a mutual feedback loop, a physical feedback loop, and there are hormonal and physical reasons why, say, daycare separation or travel is extra difficult for nursing mothers. It's easy to dismiss those feelings as irrational, but I don't think they are. I think they're grounded in real, physical, chemical things that are going on in the mother.
It might not have been key for bonding for you, but it is for some people. It was for me.
Can you tell which adults you interact with were breastfed and which were formula fed? No? Then it really doesn't matter.
Hey, that is really dismissive to the lived experiences and feelings of many women! Breastfeeding matters to me as an experience whether or not you'll be able to discern whether my daughter was breastfed when she's grown.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:04 AM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yeah, DMER. That's a thing. But a euphoric experience can be a thing, too. Hormones. Powerful. I do think there is a demonstrable effect on the mom-baby relationship, which is that it makes physical (not emotional) attachment more urgent for the mother and the child. This is often spoken of as a pure negative--you are tethered to your child! you aren't free!-- for me, with an oversupply, it was more, I don't want to be away from my child. Nursing feels good and druggy and wonderful and it stops my boobs from hurting and it makes her happy, too. Nursing creates a mutual feedback loop, a physical feedback loop, and there are hormonal and physical reasons why, say, daycare separation or travel is extra difficult for nursing mothers. It's easy to dismiss those feelings as irrational, but I don't think they are. I think they're grounded in real, physical, chemical things that are going on in the mother.
It might not have been key for bonding for you, but it is for some people. It was for me.
Can you tell which adults you interact with were breastfed and which were formula fed? No? Then it really doesn't matter.
Hey, that is really dismissive to the lived experiences and feelings of many women! Breastfeeding matters to me as an experience whether or not you'll be able to discern whether my daughter was breastfed when she's grown.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:04 AM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
To the extent breastmilk vs. formula is a "mommy war," I suspect it's actually a war between new moms and *their mothers and MILs*. I live a pretty breastfeeding-friendly city, one of the ones where new moms say things like "I will be devastated if I can't make breastfeeding work" and in general I've seen the most crunchy anti-vaxxing earth-goddess moms comfort other women who are conflicted about the need to formula feed and say things like "It's all food, the important thing is that your baby is getting fed," when they would never consider formula-feeding themselves.
Our mother's generation, on the other hand? Holy crap the judgment. Even my relatively crunchy mom (who was a totally earth mother in her own day) is clearly weirded out that I'm still breastfeeding my 21-month-old, and tends to announce her disapproval loudly at family gatherings. On the other side, starting from the day my baby was born, my MIL has emailed me articles about how great breastfeeding is and frequently asks if my kid still breastfeeds, with loud approval at my reluctant yes (reluctant because it feels weird to lie but WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME).
I dunno. I suspect attitudes towards breastfeeding and being publicly judgmental about other moms are highly regional, which is what makes it so hard to talk about this stuff on a place like Metafilter, because other people assert things that seem really far from our own experience. Except maybe moms who are overly-vocal about their opinions can be the thread that unites us all.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:09 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Our mother's generation, on the other hand? Holy crap the judgment. Even my relatively crunchy mom (who was a totally earth mother in her own day) is clearly weirded out that I'm still breastfeeding my 21-month-old, and tends to announce her disapproval loudly at family gatherings. On the other side, starting from the day my baby was born, my MIL has emailed me articles about how great breastfeeding is and frequently asks if my kid still breastfeeds, with loud approval at my reluctant yes (reluctant because it feels weird to lie but WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME).
I dunno. I suspect attitudes towards breastfeeding and being publicly judgmental about other moms are highly regional, which is what makes it so hard to talk about this stuff on a place like Metafilter, because other people assert things that seem really far from our own experience. Except maybe moms who are overly-vocal about their opinions can be the thread that unites us all.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:09 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Breastfeeding, when it's going well, is a unique physical and chemical experience. Soupy and wonderful and loving. You get a massive rush of oxytocin during letdown. There are other ways to release oxytocin--any physical contact will do. But I've never felt anything quite like breastfeeding except for sex and drugs.
I breastfed my son until he self-weaned at 23 months, and yeah, wow. The funny thing is, ten years on from that experience, I had completely forgotten about it, and what it felt like, until one time when I was watching one of those kitten-cams. I saw mom-cat enter the room, lie down, and the kittens all mob her and start nursing, and I could just see her relax into that feeling. It was so weird but I immediately recognized it.
posted by Daily Alice at 10:14 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I breastfed my son until he self-weaned at 23 months, and yeah, wow. The funny thing is, ten years on from that experience, I had completely forgotten about it, and what it felt like, until one time when I was watching one of those kitten-cams. I saw mom-cat enter the room, lie down, and the kittens all mob her and start nursing, and I could just see her relax into that feeling. It was so weird but I immediately recognized it.
posted by Daily Alice at 10:14 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
As a full-time single father, I have never understood these attitudes, though things are different for fathers. I sometimes get well-meaning but patronizing (matronizing?) comments from women about how to take care of my daughter ("Oh, make sure you put sunscreen on her!" when I'm taking her to the beach), but mostly people look at me as some sort of hero for even doing it at all, which is flattering but sort of a sad commentary o what people actually expect from fathers as parents.
But I certainly don't feel like I need to be judging other parents for every little thing they do that differs slightly from myself, and I don't feel compelled to care if other people are judging me in the same way. I am pretty carefree with my parenting, and it suits me and my daughter great, even if other people wouldn't do the same things.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 10:21 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
But I certainly don't feel like I need to be judging other parents for every little thing they do that differs slightly from myself, and I don't feel compelled to care if other people are judging me in the same way. I am pretty carefree with my parenting, and it suits me and my daughter great, even if other people wouldn't do the same things.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 10:21 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Holy shit PhoB, oxytocin is one hella drug. I don't even remotely get that feeling
I didn't at all for the first 4 months. It was going ok and I'm glad I was able to do it, but I didn't really find it much of a bonding experience before then. (No idea whether my baby did or not - hard to know what the hell they're thinking, although I did appreciate the phase she went through a couple of months later when she learned to clap at things she liked, so she would latch on and start applauding.)
posted by Catseye at 10:36 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I didn't at all for the first 4 months. It was going ok and I'm glad I was able to do it, but I didn't really find it much of a bonding experience before then. (No idea whether my baby did or not - hard to know what the hell they're thinking, although I did appreciate the phase she went through a couple of months later when she learned to clap at things she liked, so she would latch on and start applauding.)
posted by Catseye at 10:36 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
As with any phenomenon driven primarily by hormones, it's going to be different for everyone. You really can't generalize your own experiences to others'.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:44 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:44 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it's understandable that women become more "extremist" in their positions on this issue based on their experiences. No matter what you do as a woman/mother, you will be criticized for that decision (or, in many cases, lack of decision) and told you're doing Motherhood(TM) wrong. It makes sense to combat that internally by establishing "proof" that the actions you took were the correct ones. But establishing that the decisions you made were right for your family is too often conflated with The One True Parenting Method, whether intentionally or not.
An unfortunate side effect of this is that it further isolates new mothers. There are a lot of women who would like to ask questions and gather facts to help make their decisions, or share their personal stories in the hope that it might help someone else, but stay silent because they're worried about the negative backlash (whether its breastfeeding, formula feeding, cosleeping, sleep training, working, staying at home, etc. - it comes from all angles, there are no "right" decisions that shield you from this, and it's further compounded by the general being-a-woman-on-the-internet thing). Particularly women who don't have a strong opinion either way or don't adopt all of the concurrent philosophies of a group (e.g., there are a lot of communities where you can't get breastfeeding support if you aren't also anti-vax, pro-co-sleeping, etc. or can't get work-life balance support if you're breastfeeding/pumping). Or women who are dealing with PPD. Mothers are put in this double bind where their bodies/lives are considered public domain but they are not allowed to discuss their own individual experiences and issues. Like "The most important job is being a mom; my mom should be on the $10 bill; the mother-child bond is the backbone of society...but shut up mothers, we don't want to hear anything about your actual lived experience."
posted by melissasaurus at 11:56 AM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
An unfortunate side effect of this is that it further isolates new mothers. There are a lot of women who would like to ask questions and gather facts to help make their decisions, or share their personal stories in the hope that it might help someone else, but stay silent because they're worried about the negative backlash (whether its breastfeeding, formula feeding, cosleeping, sleep training, working, staying at home, etc. - it comes from all angles, there are no "right" decisions that shield you from this, and it's further compounded by the general being-a-woman-on-the-internet thing). Particularly women who don't have a strong opinion either way or don't adopt all of the concurrent philosophies of a group (e.g., there are a lot of communities where you can't get breastfeeding support if you aren't also anti-vax, pro-co-sleeping, etc. or can't get work-life balance support if you're breastfeeding/pumping). Or women who are dealing with PPD. Mothers are put in this double bind where their bodies/lives are considered public domain but they are not allowed to discuss their own individual experiences and issues. Like "The most important job is being a mom; my mom should be on the $10 bill; the mother-child bond is the backbone of society...but shut up mothers, we don't want to hear anything about your actual lived experience."
posted by melissasaurus at 11:56 AM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Can you tell which adults you interact with were breastfed and which were formula fed? No? Then it really doesn't matter.
Hey, that is really dismissive to the lived experiences and feelings of many women! Breastfeeding matters to me as an experience whether or not you'll be able to discern whether my daughter was breastfed when she's grown.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi
Hey um, I didn't mean to be dismissive. I wasn't trying to say anything like the way you took it. You feed a baby, they grow up. No one can tell with adults how they were fed, but they survived. Which is what counts. I wasn't saying women don't struggle with this judgment, but that the judgment shouldn't exist if a baby is being fed. Hope that clears that up.
posted by agregoli at 12:49 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I understand that it wasn't intended to be dismissive or insulting. But it's actually really common for people to argue at one moment that breastfeeding isn't necessary beneficial--or particularly beneficial--and in the next that therefore women don't need to do even attempt it, or, more, that we as a society don't need leave policies or pumping laws designed to protect their ability to be successful at it. The survival of babies is of course important. But it's not the only thing that's important.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:54 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:54 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I totally get the argument that Nestle has done many bad things, terrible things even, to market formula but Good Start is what kept my child alive when breastfeeding didn't work for us. That's why opinions are so charged here- my son would not have survived without formula.
And it's terrifying to think that some mothers hesitate to feed their children because of misinformation about health benefits of formula. When I was struggling I spent a lot of time on forums on Facebook for mothers having problems and I saw mothers doing what I consider to be dangerous practices in an effort to avoid formula- making homemade "formula" out of various vegetable oils and vitamin drops, avoiding taking necessary medications, buying domperidone from online pharmacies and taking it well over the recommended dosage in an effort to increase supply, spending hundreds of dollars a month on questionable supplements, getting donor milk shipped across country (to Hawaii in one case) and hoping it remained refrigerated while in transit, and just generally persisting despite misery for themselves and their children.
I had always intended to breastfeed and in my 20s definitely looked askance at women I saw with bottles. I feel terrible about that now. I would have loved to experience that oxytocin flood that some women get with breastfeeding but I never did. I'm sure breastfeeding is a bonding experience but so is bottle feeding and bathing and rocking your baby to sleep and comforting her when she cries. Babies are programmed to bond with their caregivers.
This comes back again (a lot like the recent thread on women's experience with healthcare) to women not being the final authorities on what happens to their bodies. Wouldn't it be great if women were told the truth- "breastfeeding is easy and wonderful for some women, difficult and painful for others. Here's how you breastfeed. Here's how you bottle feed. What can we do to help?"
I think we are getting closer to "it's your choice, do what works for you and your baby." Just reading a thread like this when I was struggling (and I read everything I could find) and hearing people say "formula is fine" would have helped me feel more confident about my decision to give up on breastfeeding. I don't fault Similac for making a commercial that supports that viewpoint. What would the alternative to a commercial product be- free formula? I imagine that would cut down on breastfeeding rates...
As the parent of a toddler it is interesting to me how intense this issue is in the early days and how little it matters once he switched to solid foods. There are so many things you can't control when you have a baby, so many fears, and breastfeeding seems like a simple, beneficial (natural!) thing moms can do for their baby. The flip side of that is if the mom can't breastfeed, there's so much guilt if you've been told that's the only way.
posted by betsybetsy at 1:04 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
And it's terrifying to think that some mothers hesitate to feed their children because of misinformation about health benefits of formula. When I was struggling I spent a lot of time on forums on Facebook for mothers having problems and I saw mothers doing what I consider to be dangerous practices in an effort to avoid formula- making homemade "formula" out of various vegetable oils and vitamin drops, avoiding taking necessary medications, buying domperidone from online pharmacies and taking it well over the recommended dosage in an effort to increase supply, spending hundreds of dollars a month on questionable supplements, getting donor milk shipped across country (to Hawaii in one case) and hoping it remained refrigerated while in transit, and just generally persisting despite misery for themselves and their children.
I had always intended to breastfeed and in my 20s definitely looked askance at women I saw with bottles. I feel terrible about that now. I would have loved to experience that oxytocin flood that some women get with breastfeeding but I never did. I'm sure breastfeeding is a bonding experience but so is bottle feeding and bathing and rocking your baby to sleep and comforting her when she cries. Babies are programmed to bond with their caregivers.
This comes back again (a lot like the recent thread on women's experience with healthcare) to women not being the final authorities on what happens to their bodies. Wouldn't it be great if women were told the truth- "breastfeeding is easy and wonderful for some women, difficult and painful for others. Here's how you breastfeed. Here's how you bottle feed. What can we do to help?"
I think we are getting closer to "it's your choice, do what works for you and your baby." Just reading a thread like this when I was struggling (and I read everything I could find) and hearing people say "formula is fine" would have helped me feel more confident about my decision to give up on breastfeeding. I don't fault Similac for making a commercial that supports that viewpoint. What would the alternative to a commercial product be- free formula? I imagine that would cut down on breastfeeding rates...
As the parent of a toddler it is interesting to me how intense this issue is in the early days and how little it matters once he switched to solid foods. There are so many things you can't control when you have a baby, so many fears, and breastfeeding seems like a simple, beneficial (natural!) thing moms can do for their baby. The flip side of that is if the mom can't breastfeed, there's so much guilt if you've been told that's the only way.
posted by betsybetsy at 1:04 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Enjoying the anecdotes. In my case in the first 2 weeks of breastfeeding I would experience intense anxiety leading up to a feed - sweating, pacing anxiety - and it would drastically dissipate during a feed, replaced by a feeling of relaxation, wellness and cosmic peace that 100% radiated from my tits. It was like I'd discovered the tit-chakra or something. Other-worldly. It would last a half hour or so after a feed, and then would be slowly replaced by small anxiety which would slowly build until it was unbearable and the cycle repeats. I figured Mother Nature knew exactly what to do to get this baby fed. But that cycle most certainly went away after a week or two, most likely bc at that point breastmilk production changes from a hormone-driven only response to a use-it-or-lose-it response. Unfortunately because that was one fun trip!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:44 PM on October 23, 2015
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:44 PM on October 23, 2015
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I think that's a great message, but it's hard not to question their motives given recent controversies on this point.
posted by anotherpanacea at 5:03 PM on October 22, 2015 [12 favorites]