From WHYY In Philadelphia
October 25, 2015 8:13 AM Subscribe
Terry Gross and the Art of Opening Up
This fall, Gross marks her 40th anniversary hosting "Fresh Air." At 64, she is "the most effective and beautiful interviewer of people on the planet," as Marc Maron said recently, while introducing an episode of his podcast, "WTF," that featured a conversation with Gross. She’s deft on news and subtle on history, sixth-sensey in probing personal biography and expert at examining the intricacies of artistic process. She is acutely attuned to the twin pulls of disclosure and privacy. ‘‘You started writing memoirs before our culture got as confessional as it’s become, before the word ‘oversharing’ was coined,’’ Gross said to the writer Mary Karr last month. ‘‘So has that affected your standards of what is meant to be written about and what is meant to maintain silence about?’’ (‘‘That’s such a smart question,’’ Karr responded. ‘‘Damn it, now I’m going to have to think.’’)
Elsewhere:
The WTF interview previously on MetaFilter
Ira Glass comments on the NYT article, written by former This American Life producer Susan Burton.
A contemporaneous article on the exchange with Hilary Clinton on Gay Marriage mentioned in the NYT article.
Gross' 2005 memoir
This fall, Gross marks her 40th anniversary hosting "Fresh Air." At 64, she is "the most effective and beautiful interviewer of people on the planet," as Marc Maron said recently, while introducing an episode of his podcast, "WTF," that featured a conversation with Gross. She’s deft on news and subtle on history, sixth-sensey in probing personal biography and expert at examining the intricacies of artistic process. She is acutely attuned to the twin pulls of disclosure and privacy. ‘‘You started writing memoirs before our culture got as confessional as it’s become, before the word ‘oversharing’ was coined,’’ Gross said to the writer Mary Karr last month. ‘‘So has that affected your standards of what is meant to be written about and what is meant to maintain silence about?’’ (‘‘That’s such a smart question,’’ Karr responded. ‘‘Damn it, now I’m going to have to think.’’)
Elsewhere:
The WTF interview previously on MetaFilter
Ira Glass comments on the NYT article, written by former This American Life producer Susan Burton.
A contemporaneous article on the exchange with Hilary Clinton on Gay Marriage mentioned in the NYT article.
Gross' 2005 memoir
Found an excerpt here for those interested. Love her approach or loathe it, though, there's no denying Gross' cultural cachet.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 8:51 AM on October 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Xavier Xavier at 8:51 AM on October 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
I love Terri Gross.
I don't listen to her show that often any more. Kind of: I am not on the same cultural wavelength. I don't tend to find interesting the books and music and TV that she and her audience likes. But she is great at what she does and I always like to hear her conversations on stuff I care about.
She also is a pretty hard-hitting political interviewer and has left scars on an impressive rogues' gallery.
posted by grobstein at 8:59 AM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't listen to her show that often any more. Kind of: I am not on the same cultural wavelength. I don't tend to find interesting the books and music and TV that she and her audience likes. But she is great at what she does and I always like to hear her conversations on stuff I care about.
She also is a pretty hard-hitting political interviewer and has left scars on an impressive rogues' gallery.
posted by grobstein at 8:59 AM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don't want to turn this thread into a debate about Fresh Air, but when White says "Here is an interview program that claims quite earnestly to be for intelligence, for the fresh and new, for something other than regular stale network culture, for the arts and for artists" he's just basically making shit up. Fresh Air & Gross has never claimed that. It's a Pop Culture interview show, pure and simple. Complaining that Fresh Air has Sitcom writers on (which White explictly does) is really, really missing the point.
posted by Frayed Knot at 9:01 AM on October 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Frayed Knot at 9:01 AM on October 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
She also is a pretty hard-hitting political interviewer and has left scars on an impressive rogues' gallery.
really? like who? (besides Bill O'Reilly's end-of-interview petulant walk-out)
posted by Auden at 9:15 AM on October 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
really? like who? (besides Bill O'Reilly's end-of-interview petulant walk-out)
posted by Auden at 9:15 AM on October 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
"I try not to make it about me,’’ Gross told me. ‘‘I try to use my experiences to help me understand my guests’ experiences, but not to take anything away from them.’’
Having had the good fortune to listen to Terry Gross interview people for over 20 years now, I think this philosophy of her's explains my distaste for the trend in journalism (I don't know if it's a new trend or if I'm just noticing it more now), such as the recent Rihanna interview, which takes the opposite approach as Gross, a philosophy which seems to say, "I, the interviewer, am just as interesting as the subject I am interviewing, so of course the interview should be as much about me as the interviewee". To my view, this style tends to lead to interviews where very little is revealed about the interview subject (since he or she is treated as an incidental character rather than the focus), rather than the typical Terry Gross interview where I almost always end up feeling like I have a much deeper insight into the interview subject than I did 30-45 minute before.
The linked article was great, but even with no words would have been worth it for the photo of 1970s long-haired Terry Gross.
posted by The Gooch at 9:16 AM on October 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
Having had the good fortune to listen to Terry Gross interview people for over 20 years now, I think this philosophy of her's explains my distaste for the trend in journalism (I don't know if it's a new trend or if I'm just noticing it more now), such as the recent Rihanna interview, which takes the opposite approach as Gross, a philosophy which seems to say, "I, the interviewer, am just as interesting as the subject I am interviewing, so of course the interview should be as much about me as the interviewee". To my view, this style tends to lead to interviews where very little is revealed about the interview subject (since he or she is treated as an incidental character rather than the focus), rather than the typical Terry Gross interview where I almost always end up feeling like I have a much deeper insight into the interview subject than I did 30-45 minute before.
The linked article was great, but even with no words would have been worth it for the photo of 1970s long-haired Terry Gross.
posted by The Gooch at 9:16 AM on October 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
The 2009 interview in which she gently got Tracy Morgan to engage entirely seriously, even to the point of copious tears is one that sticks in my head.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:22 AM on October 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:22 AM on October 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
The Middling Mind of Terry Gross (Andrew Hartman, May 21, 2013)
“Fresh Air is not merely a promotional vehicle for the Middle Mind, it is itself a prime example of the Middle Mind in all its charm and banality.”
Terry Gross doesn’t care about Edward Snowden
"The politics on the show are of a banal or backward-looking character, to liberal generational triumphs of yesteryear. Anti-authoritarian politics, activist politics, human-rights politics all plainly make Terry Gross uncomfortable. She avoids them.
Generally speaking, the show is about television. She spends 47 minutes interviewing voice over artists. She can’t get enough of “Breaking Bad” or “showrunner” Jenji Kohan of the TV prison drama “Orange is the New Black.” " Philip Weiss August 23, 2013
posted by Auden at 9:24 AM on October 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
“Fresh Air is not merely a promotional vehicle for the Middle Mind, it is itself a prime example of the Middle Mind in all its charm and banality.”
Terry Gross doesn’t care about Edward Snowden
"The politics on the show are of a banal or backward-looking character, to liberal generational triumphs of yesteryear. Anti-authoritarian politics, activist politics, human-rights politics all plainly make Terry Gross uncomfortable. She avoids them.
Generally speaking, the show is about television. She spends 47 minutes interviewing voice over artists. She can’t get enough of “Breaking Bad” or “showrunner” Jenji Kohan of the TV prison drama “Orange is the New Black.” " Philip Weiss August 23, 2013
posted by Auden at 9:24 AM on October 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
Her guests last week were Patti Smith; Sarah Silverman; Iris DeMent; wildlife photographer Gerrit Vyn and essayist Scott Weidensaul, who contributed to a new book about North American birds; and Kelly and Wayne Maines, the authors of a book about their experience raising a transgender child. So no, I'm not seeing that generally speaking, the show is about television.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:40 AM on October 25, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:40 AM on October 25, 2015 [15 favorites]
Generally speaking, the show is about television.
Oh, my stars and garters! A show that has a lot to say about one of the major cultural forces in American and world culture!
She spends 47 minutes interviewing voice over artists.
Well, they clearly couldn't have anything interesting to say.
I'm not the biggest fan of FA, but geez, I don't hate it, particularly not for being something I wish it was and which can easily be found elsewhere.
posted by Etrigan at 10:08 AM on October 25, 2015 [10 favorites]
Oh, my stars and garters! A show that has a lot to say about one of the major cultural forces in American and world culture!
She spends 47 minutes interviewing voice over artists.
Well, they clearly couldn't have anything interesting to say.
I'm not the biggest fan of FA, but geez, I don't hate it, particularly not for being something I wish it was and which can easily be found elsewhere.
posted by Etrigan at 10:08 AM on October 25, 2015 [10 favorites]
Complaining that Fresh Air doesn't cover politics enough or in the right way seems weird to me. It's framed as an arts and culture show. It would be like complaining that Rachel Maddow doesn't feature enough musicians on her show.
I really appreciate Fresh Air, and Terry Gross's interviewing style, for the way it opens up and explores topics in such a humanistic way. Because of this, I find myself listening and often engrossed even when the topic is not something I'm usually interested in. That's actually one downside of the fact that I now listen mostly via podcast - I'm less likely to listen if it's not something I'm interested in than I would have been if it were just on the radio.
My all-time favorite Terry Gross interview was with Jay-Z.
posted by lunasol at 10:36 AM on October 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
I really appreciate Fresh Air, and Terry Gross's interviewing style, for the way it opens up and explores topics in such a humanistic way. Because of this, I find myself listening and often engrossed even when the topic is not something I'm usually interested in. That's actually one downside of the fact that I now listen mostly via podcast - I'm less likely to listen if it's not something I'm interested in than I would have been if it were just on the radio.
My all-time favorite Terry Gross interview was with Jay-Z.
posted by lunasol at 10:36 AM on October 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
The voice over artist dig is amusing, since her interview with Billy West is fantastic both for the humor and for the humanity. A short of quintessential Fresh Air episode.
posted by Panjandrum at 10:39 AM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Panjandrum at 10:39 AM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was just reading a piece about "NPR-voice," that irritating Ira Glass-esque rhythm and intonation. I don't always love Gross's questions, but at least she doesn't sound like that.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:43 AM on October 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 10:43 AM on October 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Complaining that Fresh Air doesn't cover politics enough or in the right way seems weird to me. It's framed as an arts and culture show. It would be like complaining that Rachel Maddow doesn't feature enough musicians on her show.
Also strange because it is directly addressed right in the main article: Gross interviews very few politicians because it is difficult to get them to speak candidly.
posted by The Gooch at 10:44 AM on October 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also strange because it is directly addressed right in the main article: Gross interviews very few politicians because it is difficult to get them to speak candidly.
posted by The Gooch at 10:44 AM on October 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
Not all of Terry Gross' interviews go well. Her 2003 interview with the Google founders was notoriously bad, really flat. Mostly because Larry and Sergey weren't very generous guests, but also Terry wasn't as well prepared and she should be. Or at least that's my memory, it's been 12 years since I heard it.
But the bad interviews stand out mostly because there are so few of them on Fresh Air. It's smart radio.
My new podcast subscription is Here's the Thing, a show where Alec Baldwin interviews guests. I've only heard one, with Carol Burnett, but it was fantastic.
posted by Nelson at 10:45 AM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
But the bad interviews stand out mostly because there are so few of them on Fresh Air. It's smart radio.
My new podcast subscription is Here's the Thing, a show where Alec Baldwin interviews guests. I've only heard one, with Carol Burnett, but it was fantastic.
posted by Nelson at 10:45 AM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not all of Terry Gross' interviews go well.
*cough*GeneSimmons*cough*
"I would like to think that the personality you've presented on our show today is a persona that you've affected as a member of KISS, something you do on stage, before the microphone, but that you're not nearly as obnoxious in the privacy of your own home or when you're having dinner with friends."
"Fair enough. And I'd like to think that the boring lady who's talking to me now is a lot sexier and more interesting than the one who's doing NPR."
PDF transcript
posted by Etrigan at 11:27 AM on October 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
*cough*GeneSimmons*cough*
"I would like to think that the personality you've presented on our show today is a persona that you've affected as a member of KISS, something you do on stage, before the microphone, but that you're not nearly as obnoxious in the privacy of your own home or when you're having dinner with friends."
"Fair enough. And I'd like to think that the boring lady who's talking to me now is a lot sexier and more interesting than the one who's doing NPR."
PDF transcript
posted by Etrigan at 11:27 AM on October 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
I hate hate hate FA, it's either straight out shilling for a cable show I'll never watch, or a replay of an old interview after someone has died. And those really display the awfulness of FA: many times a highly accomplished artist is talking about some project that in retrospect was terrible, but Gross is just fawning other it.
posted by 445supermag at 11:29 AM on October 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by 445supermag at 11:29 AM on October 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
many times a highly accomplished artist is talking about some project that in retrospect was terrible, but Gross is just fawning other it.
I think this is a misunderstanding of what Terry Gross is doing. Probably because we're so used to fawning celebrity interviews. But I think what Gross is really doing is just trying to get artists and other guests to open up and talk about their creative process and what drives them. It's not about passing judgment but about understanding, which is why I find the show so fascinating.
For instance, another interview I loved was with the songwriters for Frozen. The music in Frozen is mostly pretty mediocre (I think) but the interview is still fascinating because Gross manages to pull so much out of them about how the project evolved, the storytelling, the role of feminism, etc. I love that she took them seriously as artists because that allowed for a really interesting conversation.
posted by lunasol at 11:39 AM on October 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think this is a misunderstanding of what Terry Gross is doing. Probably because we're so used to fawning celebrity interviews. But I think what Gross is really doing is just trying to get artists and other guests to open up and talk about their creative process and what drives them. It's not about passing judgment but about understanding, which is why I find the show so fascinating.
For instance, another interview I loved was with the songwriters for Frozen. The music in Frozen is mostly pretty mediocre (I think) but the interview is still fascinating because Gross manages to pull so much out of them about how the project evolved, the storytelling, the role of feminism, etc. I love that she took them seriously as artists because that allowed for a really interesting conversation.
posted by lunasol at 11:39 AM on October 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
She can tell a pretty good joke, too. Wait Wait with Terry Gross
posted by underflow at 11:58 AM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by underflow at 11:58 AM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's a huge difference between booking great guests and being a great interviewer.
posted by twsf at 12:25 PM on October 25, 2015
posted by twsf at 12:25 PM on October 25, 2015
I listened to Fresh Air when I lived in the Philadelphia area 30+ years ago, before it went national, and always thought that Gross was very good at giving people the space to talk, but often wouldn’t abandon her prepared set of questions when the conversation, after what had just been said by the guest, could have gone in a more interesting direction. Of course she was relatively new at the job then, and it’s not as easy as people like her make it look.
I became kind of the Terry Gross (although I’m much taller) of Down East Maine for three years at the end of the 1990s – although my FA-like radio interview show only happened once a week and involved almost entirely local people. Most times it works, sometimes it doesn't. The fact that she’s been allowed to interview people (thousands and thousands, for decades and decades!) must mean that somebody thinks she’s good at it. And even if she was bad – which she isn’t – her longevity alone would be noteworthy.
posted by LeLiLo at 12:32 PM on October 25, 2015
I became kind of the Terry Gross (although I’m much taller) of Down East Maine for three years at the end of the 1990s – although my FA-like radio interview show only happened once a week and involved almost entirely local people. Most times it works, sometimes it doesn't. The fact that she’s been allowed to interview people (thousands and thousands, for decades and decades!) must mean that somebody thinks she’s good at it. And even if she was bad – which she isn’t – her longevity alone would be noteworthy.
posted by LeLiLo at 12:32 PM on October 25, 2015
Are people legit contemplating "How does she get such good guests?" and "Why doesn't she ask more cutting, politically pointed questions?" Is it not entirely clear that the two questions answer each other? She gets good guests because the show is set up to choose people it esteems then celebrate them, not pick them apart.
And you know what? That is entirely okay. The show is literally called Fresh Air. What's wrong with it primarily being a celebration and rumination of good things in pop culture?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:51 PM on October 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
And you know what? That is entirely okay. The show is literally called Fresh Air. What's wrong with it primarily being a celebration and rumination of good things in pop culture?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:51 PM on October 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
Honest question, Etrigan. Why do you consider the Simmons interview to be bad?
I find it gripping, fascinating radio. Gross gave Simmons enough rope to thoroughly hang himself. She (mostly) kept her cool, and just let him blabber on. It's telling that is Simmons who has refused to let the show be in the FA archives.
I think it's one of her best, actually, and truly don't understand why you call it a bad interview.
posted by Frayed Knot at 1:27 PM on October 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
I find it gripping, fascinating radio. Gross gave Simmons enough rope to thoroughly hang himself. She (mostly) kept her cool, and just let him blabber on. It's telling that is Simmons who has refused to let the show be in the FA archives.
I think it's one of her best, actually, and truly don't understand why you call it a bad interview.
posted by Frayed Knot at 1:27 PM on October 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
The Curtis White essay as quoted in the linked article from Hartman has been my discomfort with Terry Gross, too, especially this kind of thing:
That she thinks of herself as being akin to a therapist is worrisome. Therapists ask what she calls "question[s] that gets exactly to the heart of what [she's] trying to say" in certain ways because we can follow up with interventions to help people process or deal with the emotions that come up. We don't poke at people's traumas for the sake of asking interesting questions.
The Ta-Nehisi Coates anecdote from the main article is interesting, too:
posted by jaguar at 1:27 PM on October 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Let me develop this last idea about the pornographic a bit. Terry Gross’s interest in books and writers is too often morbid, perverse and voyeuristic.... [S]he recently interviewed the main writer of the new HBO series Six Feet Under. The critical moment in the interview came when she asked him (I’m paraphrasing from memory), “What was it like when you were in that car accident and your sister was driving and she died but you didn’t?” Was she leading up to a telling psychological reading of the work in question? No. She wanted to know and I suspect her audience wanted to know what it was like to be in an auto accident in which his sister died! That’s it. Do we learn something about writing, or the arts, or culture? Do we learn anything? No, we learn that he was traumatized by the event.I listen to her a lot (Fresh Air is broadcast here at a time I'm often in the car), and I mostly like her, but I hate the way she pokes at trauma. I don't remember who she was interviewing but she kept harping on his having been the one to find his best friend after the friend's suicide and how he felt about it. It didn't seem to have much to do with anything else in the interview, and the interviewee was sounding very uncomfortable. As a therapist who has training in working with survivors of trauma, I was hearing every indication of "Stop! Continuing to poke at this will be harmful! Stop!" and it was making me extremely uncomfortable. And I have that same reaction generally once a week or so with her interviews. I had written it off a bit because I figured Gross at least had the advantage of being able to see the interviewees' facial expressions and body language, which would help her gauge when to back off, but I learned from the main article here that she mostly interviews people from afar. So, so much for that theory.
That she thinks of herself as being akin to a therapist is worrisome. Therapists ask what she calls "question[s] that gets exactly to the heart of what [she's] trying to say" in certain ways because we can follow up with interventions to help people process or deal with the emotions that come up. We don't poke at people's traumas for the sake of asking interesting questions.
The Ta-Nehisi Coates anecdote from the main article is interesting, too:
Occasionally the ‘‘real moments’’ can be awkward for Gross. In July, in an interview with the writer Ta-Nehisi Coates, Gross began laughing in response to a story he told about being yelled at by a teacher. ‘‘See, it sounds like you’re laughing because, like, it’s funny if you’ve never been in the environment,’’ Coates said. Some on social media pegged Gross as a clueless white lady. But the exchange was constructive. Gross was simply reacting, and then listening as Coates explained his perception of her reaction. In doing so, he illuminated an experience of growing up in a culture of fear and violence.I heard that. She had an interview with the filmmaker of Dear White People, I think, that was also annoyingly clueless, in a sort of "Oh, how interesting it is that Black people have a different experience than white people growing up in this country! What are some funny ways that you think Black people have different experiences than white people?" way.
posted by jaguar at 1:27 PM on October 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also strange because it is directly addressed right in the main article: Gross interviews very few politicians because it is difficult to get them to speak candidly.
... and they know that they will be pressed, if they come on Fresh Air. Some of the defenses people are offering of the show are bizarre to me, as though Terry Gross is an uncritical cheerleader for her guests but that's okay. This is a very Internet stance to take, and there are plenty of podcasts and pop-culture sites that it applies to, but Terry is not of that generation and that's not her MO. She still thinks it's good to be critical.
She definitely likes most of her guests, but she really tries to get at the heart of things, and she follows her own agenda. She won't limit her questions to get access, and she won't back off if a guest is being evasive. This is to be celebrated, I think.
It's unfortunate that, in our political and media culture, politicians can mostly get away with never sitting for any difficult interviews. If that wasn't the case, Terry Gross might have more political guests. (You can bet Hillary Clinton will not be on her show again.)
posted by grobstein at 1:28 PM on October 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
... and they know that they will be pressed, if they come on Fresh Air. Some of the defenses people are offering of the show are bizarre to me, as though Terry Gross is an uncritical cheerleader for her guests but that's okay. This is a very Internet stance to take, and there are plenty of podcasts and pop-culture sites that it applies to, but Terry is not of that generation and that's not her MO. She still thinks it's good to be critical.
She definitely likes most of her guests, but she really tries to get at the heart of things, and she follows her own agenda. She won't limit her questions to get access, and she won't back off if a guest is being evasive. This is to be celebrated, I think.
It's unfortunate that, in our political and media culture, politicians can mostly get away with never sitting for any difficult interviews. If that wasn't the case, Terry Gross might have more political guests. (You can bet Hillary Clinton will not be on her show again.)
posted by grobstein at 1:28 PM on October 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Curtis White sure sounds like a big pile of ugh.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 1:42 PM on October 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 1:42 PM on October 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
Honest question, Etrigan. Why do you consider the Simmons interview to be bad?
There is a difference between "bad" and "not go well". An interview can be compelling despite not going well. I don't think of Gross as giving him enough rope and keeping her cool; I think of her as letting him do his shtick without particularly challenging him on it, while still holding herself as too good to be talking to him. Anyone can get a kayfabe interview out of a dedicated worker.
posted by Etrigan at 2:15 PM on October 25, 2015
There is a difference between "bad" and "not go well". An interview can be compelling despite not going well. I don't think of Gross as giving him enough rope and keeping her cool; I think of her as letting him do his shtick without particularly challenging him on it, while still holding herself as too good to be talking to him. Anyone can get a kayfabe interview out of a dedicated worker.
posted by Etrigan at 2:15 PM on October 25, 2015
I will celebrate her birthday by whipping out my Schweddy balls.
posted by markkraft at 3:34 PM on October 25, 2015
posted by markkraft at 3:34 PM on October 25, 2015
I think it's a good show, but possibly more because of the caliber of the guests. I agree with the viewpoint of some of the comments and articles above -- I've sometimes thought that if a single person invented a pill that cured all forms of cancer, brokered lasting peace in the Middle East, and wrote the Great American Novel, Terry Gross' first question would be: "your parents both died in a car crash when you were 17. What did that feel like?"
posted by uosuaq at 3:52 PM on October 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by uosuaq at 3:52 PM on October 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Curtis White sure sounds like a big pile of ugh.
Pretty much, yeah. I thought so back in the eighties when I took a creative writing course that he taught (and I'm not saying so because I got a bad grade--quite the contrary--but because, as far as I could tell, neither me nor anyone else in the class became a better writer as a result), and The Middle Mind reads very much like someone trying to escape his own inexorable mediocrity by frenetically attacking it in what he assumes are some easy targets, such as Gross and Saving Private Ryan.
As for Gross, well, I didn't give her a lot of thought until I found myself not too long ago with a recurring long evening drive during the time her show was on, but now I'm a fan. Her guests aren't always that interesting (to me generally, or on the show), and she doesn't alway hit high notes with them, but when they are and she does, it's fantastic--regular sit-in-your-car-in-the-driveway-to-finish-listening stuff. I was listening when she had Hillary Clinton on, and it was no surprise to me when the Benghazi hearing rolled around and HRC showed again how adept she was at counterpunching.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:23 PM on October 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Pretty much, yeah. I thought so back in the eighties when I took a creative writing course that he taught (and I'm not saying so because I got a bad grade--quite the contrary--but because, as far as I could tell, neither me nor anyone else in the class became a better writer as a result), and The Middle Mind reads very much like someone trying to escape his own inexorable mediocrity by frenetically attacking it in what he assumes are some easy targets, such as Gross and Saving Private Ryan.
As for Gross, well, I didn't give her a lot of thought until I found myself not too long ago with a recurring long evening drive during the time her show was on, but now I'm a fan. Her guests aren't always that interesting (to me generally, or on the show), and she doesn't alway hit high notes with them, but when they are and she does, it's fantastic--regular sit-in-your-car-in-the-driveway-to-finish-listening stuff. I was listening when she had Hillary Clinton on, and it was no surprise to me when the Benghazi hearing rolled around and HRC showed again how adept she was at counterpunching.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:23 PM on October 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I found myself rolling my eyes a lot, just from the short excerpts of White's writing. The stuff about people thinking that TV shows can actually be excellent struck me as some very 20th Century snobbery of the "I call it television because TV is a nickname and nicknames are for friends and television is no friend of mine" school. (And yes, I am criticizing him using a Mr. Show reference. How terribly Middle Minded of me!)
I think that people finding Gross ghoulish are saying more about their own squeamishness than the quality of the show. Gross is trying to do probing, honest and sometimes intimate interviews. She's not trying to promote somebody's new movie. She is asking about the times in somebody's life that changed them most, and sometimes that means going dark. She asks about the happy stuff and the dark stuff, she doesn't just zero in on somebody's trauma and clamp on like a pitbull.
Ira Glass seems to really admire her, which is a bit surprising because I remember him once using Fresh Air as an example of the NPR approach he wanted to avoid on TAL. He was talking about the TAL way of telling a story and the kind of insight he wanted each story to have, as opposed to Fresh Air, which he seemed to feel was more dry and impartial. He wasn't trash talking Fresh Air, but he was kind of lumping it in with a news show like All Things Considered.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:45 PM on October 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think that people finding Gross ghoulish are saying more about their own squeamishness than the quality of the show. Gross is trying to do probing, honest and sometimes intimate interviews. She's not trying to promote somebody's new movie. She is asking about the times in somebody's life that changed them most, and sometimes that means going dark. She asks about the happy stuff and the dark stuff, she doesn't just zero in on somebody's trauma and clamp on like a pitbull.
Ira Glass seems to really admire her, which is a bit surprising because I remember him once using Fresh Air as an example of the NPR approach he wanted to avoid on TAL. He was talking about the TAL way of telling a story and the kind of insight he wanted each story to have, as opposed to Fresh Air, which he seemed to feel was more dry and impartial. He wasn't trash talking Fresh Air, but he was kind of lumping it in with a news show like All Things Considered.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:45 PM on October 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think that people finding Gross ghoulish are saying more about their own squeamishness than the quality of the show. Gross is trying to do probing, honest and sometimes intimate interviews. She's not trying to promote somebody's new movie. She is asking about the times in somebody's life that changed them most, and sometimes that means going dark. She asks about the happy stuff and the dark stuff, she doesn't just zero in on somebody's trauma and clamp on like a pitbull.I don't know. I think sometimes this works, and sometimes it's clear that the person doesn't want to talk about their trauma or something else, and it makes me cringe a bit when she won't stop pushing it. I mean, I thought that her
I think she's a mixed bag as an interviewer, but when she's good, she's really good.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:10 PM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
She can tell a pretty good joke, too.
Most Fresh Air listeners will enjoy Mike Birbiglia's 2012 short film, posted previously as Thank you for joining us.
posted by Snerd at 7:26 PM on October 25, 2015
Most Fresh Air listeners will enjoy Mike Birbiglia's 2012 short film, posted previously as Thank you for joining us.
posted by Snerd at 7:26 PM on October 25, 2015
I think that people finding Gross ghoulish are saying more about their own squeamishness than the quality of the show.
I'm a therapist who listens to stories of child abuse, death, molestation, rape, forced psychiatric hospitalizations, suicide attempts, and paranoid delusions (many of which are very gruesome) all day long. I'm not squeamish. I think such traumas should be treated with respect, which I think Gross does not always do.
posted by jaguar at 7:52 PM on October 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm a therapist who listens to stories of child abuse, death, molestation, rape, forced psychiatric hospitalizations, suicide attempts, and paranoid delusions (many of which are very gruesome) all day long. I'm not squeamish. I think such traumas should be treated with respect, which I think Gross does not always do.
posted by jaguar at 7:52 PM on October 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think I've always avoided Terry Gross because of her choice of guests and her maudlin approach. The criticism that she's exploitative of interviewees for little gain rings true to me.
For fluffy cultural interviewers, can we talk about Nardwuar? The research, the discomfort? I admire his bravery and his diligence.
posted by eustatic at 9:11 PM on October 25, 2015
For fluffy cultural interviewers, can we talk about Nardwuar? The research, the discomfort? I admire his bravery and his diligence.
posted by eustatic at 9:11 PM on October 25, 2015
Attacking NPR for being middleground is like attacking a kitten for being too small and falling down too much and not being able to fly.
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 PM on October 25, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 PM on October 25, 2015 [9 favorites]
She's a very skilled interviewer. I'm sure I've listened to thousands of her shows and although her production and editing team must play a large part, her interviewing is the core of why this stuff is so listenable.
Still, I don't find her exceptionally probing and the middlebrow nature of the content often annoys me.
And still, still, she's kind of all that's out there to give an intelligent person a chance to intelligently articulate themselves. Those moments like the last interview with Maurice Sendak - I can't imagine those happening anywhere else.
posted by latkes at 9:55 PM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Still, I don't find her exceptionally probing and the middlebrow nature of the content often annoys me.
And still, still, she's kind of all that's out there to give an intelligent person a chance to intelligently articulate themselves. Those moments like the last interview with Maurice Sendak - I can't imagine those happening anywhere else.
posted by latkes at 9:55 PM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I too find her ghoulish at times. But she does produce amazing interviews regularly. E.g. the Sarah Silverman episode last week was superb. It's the first podcast I put on in the evening. And I really love it usually. This is in spite of the fact that regularly I'm critical of the tone. She has a talent for getting out of the way and letting the interview proceed. And it produces great results. Contrast her to Dave Davies, who has the entire interview planned out in his mind. And they're not as good as a result.
posted by persona au gratin at 1:48 AM on October 26, 2015
posted by persona au gratin at 1:48 AM on October 26, 2015
Most of the fawning she does is Broadway related.
posted by persona au gratin at 1:51 AM on October 26, 2015
posted by persona au gratin at 1:51 AM on October 26, 2015
I'm unfamiliar with how interviewing works, I guess - I've always assumed that a considerable amount of back-and-forth negotiation goes on between interviewer and interviewee about what will be asked about what. I mean, does Gross spring trauma questions on her interviewers unawares? That would definitely strike me as unpleasant and "ghoulish", but if they go on the show knowing that those questions are going to be asked beforehand, not so much.
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:07 AM on October 26, 2015
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:07 AM on October 26, 2015
Sorry Jaguar, perhaps "squeamishness" was too confrontational and it would have been better to say that I think that people who consider Gross ghoulish are saying more about their own sense of boundaries. Perhaps as a therapist you're more attuned to the moments when Gross' guests are uncomfortable, but I'm approaching this as a former pop culture journalist (and a lifelong voyeur) and I'm just in awe of what Gross does and how natural and easy she makes it look. She has honest conversations with people, and I never get the feeling she's out to embarrass anybody or that she's exposing stuff they'd prefer to keep hidden. (As the article says, if her guests object to something she'll drop the subject or cut it from the interview. She's not playing "gotcha" with people.)
Anyway, we can disagree about Gross without getting nasty, and I fear that my previous post sounded a lot more snotty than I intended.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:44 AM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anyway, we can disagree about Gross without getting nasty, and I fear that my previous post sounded a lot more snotty than I intended.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:44 AM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Contrast her to Dave Davies, who has the entire interview planned out in his mind.
And is utterly transparent in directing it.
Dave Davies: "In your book, you wrote that X is Y. Is it true that X is Y? You should now restate that."
Guest: "Yes, Dave. As I wrote in my book, X is indeed Y."
posted by dephlogisticated at 6:48 AM on October 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
And is utterly transparent in directing it.
Dave Davies: "In your book, you wrote that X is Y. Is it true that X is Y? You should now restate that."
Guest: "Yes, Dave. As I wrote in my book, X is indeed Y."
posted by dephlogisticated at 6:48 AM on October 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sorry Jaguar, perhaps "squeamishness" was too confrontational and it would have been better to say that I think that people who consider Gross ghoulish are saying more about their own sense of boundaries. Perhaps as a therapist you're more attuned to the moments when Gross' guests are uncomfortable, but I'm approaching this as a former pop culture journalist (and a lifelong voyeur) and I'm just in awe of what Gross does and how natural and easy she makes it look. She has honest conversations with people, and I never get the feeling she's out to embarrass anybody or that she's exposing stuff they'd prefer to keep hidden. (As the article says, if her guests object to something she'll drop the subject or cut it from the interview. She's not playing "gotcha" with people.)
I don't think she's intentionally trying to embarrass her guests, but I find the trauma-poking to be an only slightly higher-brow version of the local news sticking a camera in the face of a woman whose six year old was just murdered and asking her how it feels. It's in the service of voyeurism, not therapeutic intervention. Which is fine for journalists (I don't think it's fine in what it says about us as a society, that we want our journalists to go do that), but not fine for therapists, and so when Gross compares herself to a therapist, I get red flags popping up all over my brain. She's asking people questions in the service of having a good show. Therapists ask people questions in order to help people heal. Pretending (even to yourself -- especially to yourself) that you're doing the latter when you're actually doing the former is not ok, because it's exploiting your guests' trauma for personal gain while claiming to be helping them.
As for people being able to tell her to stop or back off a topic, I think the power differential needs to be kept in mind. You're being interviewed by Terry Gross! The country's best interviewer! Everyone wants to be interviewed by Terry Gross! So if she's making you uncomfortable, there's likely going to be some fairly large people-pleasing tendencies to push through before you ask her to stop. I looked back up that interview I mentioned about the friend's suicide, and I had some major details wrong -- she was interviewing Andrew Solomon about his latest book on depression, and he apparently dedicated one of the chapters to his friend who had died, so I could absolutely see him ok'ing the general topic, but she presses him for details about how the friend killed himself, about whether Solomon felt guilty, and basically asks all the questions that grief therapists are trained not to ask, at least not in that way, and without being able to follow up and provide any support to him. And that segment ends pretty quickly after she starts doing that, so it's possible he did ask her to stop. And again, as journalism, ok; it's her version of sticking a camera in the face of a grieving mother. But she should own that, because acting as if those sorts of questions are always therapeutic is dishonest and exploitative.
With a guest who wants to talk about those dark things, it may be great and healing to talk to Gross about them, and I have no problems with dark things being discussed on air. With a guest who doesn't, though, it's likely triggering (seriously, I was hoping Solomon had a therapy session scheduled soon after the interview so he could process it with someone trained).
Anyway, we can disagree about Gross without getting nasty, and I fear that my previous post sounded a lot more snotty than I intended.
Thank you.
posted by jaguar at 7:11 AM on October 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
I don't think she's intentionally trying to embarrass her guests, but I find the trauma-poking to be an only slightly higher-brow version of the local news sticking a camera in the face of a woman whose six year old was just murdered and asking her how it feels. It's in the service of voyeurism, not therapeutic intervention. Which is fine for journalists (I don't think it's fine in what it says about us as a society, that we want our journalists to go do that), but not fine for therapists, and so when Gross compares herself to a therapist, I get red flags popping up all over my brain. She's asking people questions in the service of having a good show. Therapists ask people questions in order to help people heal. Pretending (even to yourself -- especially to yourself) that you're doing the latter when you're actually doing the former is not ok, because it's exploiting your guests' trauma for personal gain while claiming to be helping them.
As for people being able to tell her to stop or back off a topic, I think the power differential needs to be kept in mind. You're being interviewed by Terry Gross! The country's best interviewer! Everyone wants to be interviewed by Terry Gross! So if she's making you uncomfortable, there's likely going to be some fairly large people-pleasing tendencies to push through before you ask her to stop. I looked back up that interview I mentioned about the friend's suicide, and I had some major details wrong -- she was interviewing Andrew Solomon about his latest book on depression, and he apparently dedicated one of the chapters to his friend who had died, so I could absolutely see him ok'ing the general topic, but she presses him for details about how the friend killed himself, about whether Solomon felt guilty, and basically asks all the questions that grief therapists are trained not to ask, at least not in that way, and without being able to follow up and provide any support to him. And that segment ends pretty quickly after she starts doing that, so it's possible he did ask her to stop. And again, as journalism, ok; it's her version of sticking a camera in the face of a grieving mother. But she should own that, because acting as if those sorts of questions are always therapeutic is dishonest and exploitative.
With a guest who wants to talk about those dark things, it may be great and healing to talk to Gross about them, and I have no problems with dark things being discussed on air. With a guest who doesn't, though, it's likely triggering (seriously, I was hoping Solomon had a therapy session scheduled soon after the interview so he could process it with someone trained).
Anyway, we can disagree about Gross without getting nasty, and I fear that my previous post sounded a lot more snotty than I intended.
Thank you.
posted by jaguar at 7:11 AM on October 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
I find the trauma-poking to be an only slightly higher-brow version of the local news sticking a camera in the face of a woman whose six year old was just murdered and asking her how it feels.
FA is a scheduled interview program. Anyone who goes on the show knows that they're going to be interviewed by Terry Gross, and that they're not going to be able to control the interview as much as they would on The Tonight Show. If they've written about a trauma in the book they're trying to sell, then that trauma absolutely has to be fair game for a good interviewer.
One exception -- in Drew Carey's Dirty Jokes and Beer, he writes very briefly that he was sexually abused as a child, and he wasn't going to say anything else about it, and that he wouldn't be talking about it anymore. I think an interviewer who pushes for more in that sort of situation is being needlessly ghoulish.
posted by Etrigan at 7:30 AM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
FA is a scheduled interview program. Anyone who goes on the show knows that they're going to be interviewed by Terry Gross, and that they're not going to be able to control the interview as much as they would on The Tonight Show. If they've written about a trauma in the book they're trying to sell, then that trauma absolutely has to be fair game for a good interviewer.
One exception -- in Drew Carey's Dirty Jokes and Beer, he writes very briefly that he was sexually abused as a child, and he wasn't going to say anything else about it, and that he wouldn't be talking about it anymore. I think an interviewer who pushes for more in that sort of situation is being needlessly ghoulish.
posted by Etrigan at 7:30 AM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was just reading a piece about "NPR-voice," that irritating Ira Glass-esque rhythm and intonation. I don't always love Gross's questions, but at least she doesn't sound like that.
Except, that's one reason why I really don't like fresh-air. Instead of the hyper annoying Ira Glass vocalisms, Terry Gross has this deep, breathless, fawning way of talking. The opposite of Ira Glass, but equally off-putting. (plus what others have said in better detail, like trauma poking, etc).
posted by k5.user at 8:00 AM on October 26, 2015
Wow, Gene Simmons is just an asshole.
posted by freecellwizard at 10:32 AM on October 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by freecellwizard at 10:32 AM on October 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Terry Gross’s interest in books and writers is too often morbid, perverse and voyeuristic.... [S]he recently interviewed the main writer of the new HBO series Six Feet Under. The critical moment in the interview came when she asked him (I’m paraphrasing from memory), “What was it like when you were in that car accident and your sister was driving and she died but you didn’t?”
This is such a weird example. I'm not a huge fan of Gross or of Fresh Air, but why on Earth would you not want to talk to someone whose work (Six Feet Under) is literally telling stories about the grieving process by putting it in light of his own grief experience?
posted by psoas at 2:53 PM on October 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is such a weird example. I'm not a huge fan of Gross or of Fresh Air, but why on Earth would you not want to talk to someone whose work (Six Feet Under) is literally telling stories about the grieving process by putting it in light of his own grief experience?
posted by psoas at 2:53 PM on October 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
I find the trauma-poking to be an only slightly higher-brow version of the local news sticking a camera in the face of a woman whose six year old was just murdered and asking her how it feels.
I would strongly disagree with that take. The local news goons are notorious for having zero empathy. They don't actually care about that woman's trauma, they're just trying to get a bump in the ratings with cheap sensationalism. I have never gotten the feeling that Gross doesn't care if her guests have suffered. In fact, I think her combination of deep research and empathy is what allows her guests to open up the way they do. They know she's done the homework and she gives a damn.
It's in the service of voyeurism, not therapeutic intervention.
Just because Gross' show isn't therapeutic intervention, that doesn't make it voyeurism. It's journalism. I don't think Gross was being serious if she passingly compared what she does to therapy. That's a common thing people say, after they've had some deep and/or difficult conversations. "Poor Gloria... sometimes when I talk to that woman, I feel like her shrink." "Man, I had to really play shrink to get Mike and Bill talking to each other again." It's not like Gross is really claiming to be a therapist or even that the main goal of her show is to have conversations about private agonies. And is therapy the only place where we can talk about difficult subjects? Isn't it useful to have a show where people can talk about their traumas thoughtfully and we can listen and possibly learn from that?
I've talked about this on Metafilter a couple of times, but I think it's relevant again here. A few years ago I had a very painful condition that looked like it was going to be with me for the rest of my life. (It eventually got a lot better, knock wood, but I had a few miserable, terrifying years.) During the worst of it I heard a Fresh Air interview with George Clooney where he opened up about dealing with chronic pain from a serious back injury. He said something to the effect that the pain was intolerable, until he learned to stop expecting it to get better. In other words, he had spent every day comparing his pain to how he expected to feel normally, and he just kept waiting to get better and it was endlessly frustrating. But when he stopped waiting to get better and learned to take each day as it came, the pain became easier to bear. I'm not putting it as well as he did, but the idea did make sense to me and it actually helped get me through a really rough period. I definitely did not expect to get life-changing advice from the dude from ER!
I was in therapy at the time, with an excellent therapist. But I still got something that changed my life from that interview with George Clooney, and it was all thanks to Gross' particular skills as an interviewer.
I jokingly referred to myself as a voyeur upthread, but I think it's perfectly natural for us to want to know about the stuff we don't usually talk about in polite company. It's natural to wonder about other people's griefs and their sex lives and all that stuff. And it's good if we talk about it and share stories, even outside of therapy!
I get what you're saying about the risk of exploitation and ghoulishness, but to me Gross falls well short of crossing that line.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:09 PM on October 26, 2015
I would strongly disagree with that take. The local news goons are notorious for having zero empathy. They don't actually care about that woman's trauma, they're just trying to get a bump in the ratings with cheap sensationalism. I have never gotten the feeling that Gross doesn't care if her guests have suffered. In fact, I think her combination of deep research and empathy is what allows her guests to open up the way they do. They know she's done the homework and she gives a damn.
It's in the service of voyeurism, not therapeutic intervention.
Just because Gross' show isn't therapeutic intervention, that doesn't make it voyeurism. It's journalism. I don't think Gross was being serious if she passingly compared what she does to therapy. That's a common thing people say, after they've had some deep and/or difficult conversations. "Poor Gloria... sometimes when I talk to that woman, I feel like her shrink." "Man, I had to really play shrink to get Mike and Bill talking to each other again." It's not like Gross is really claiming to be a therapist or even that the main goal of her show is to have conversations about private agonies. And is therapy the only place where we can talk about difficult subjects? Isn't it useful to have a show where people can talk about their traumas thoughtfully and we can listen and possibly learn from that?
I've talked about this on Metafilter a couple of times, but I think it's relevant again here. A few years ago I had a very painful condition that looked like it was going to be with me for the rest of my life. (It eventually got a lot better, knock wood, but I had a few miserable, terrifying years.) During the worst of it I heard a Fresh Air interview with George Clooney where he opened up about dealing with chronic pain from a serious back injury. He said something to the effect that the pain was intolerable, until he learned to stop expecting it to get better. In other words, he had spent every day comparing his pain to how he expected to feel normally, and he just kept waiting to get better and it was endlessly frustrating. But when he stopped waiting to get better and learned to take each day as it came, the pain became easier to bear. I'm not putting it as well as he did, but the idea did make sense to me and it actually helped get me through a really rough period. I definitely did not expect to get life-changing advice from the dude from ER!
I was in therapy at the time, with an excellent therapist. But I still got something that changed my life from that interview with George Clooney, and it was all thanks to Gross' particular skills as an interviewer.
I jokingly referred to myself as a voyeur upthread, but I think it's perfectly natural for us to want to know about the stuff we don't usually talk about in polite company. It's natural to wonder about other people's griefs and their sex lives and all that stuff. And it's good if we talk about it and share stories, even outside of therapy!
I get what you're saying about the risk of exploitation and ghoulishness, but to me Gross falls well short of crossing that line.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:09 PM on October 26, 2015
I'm just going to agree to disagree at this point because I'm tired of arguing and I don't think we're communicating very well with each other.
posted by jaguar at 8:59 PM on October 26, 2015
posted by jaguar at 8:59 PM on October 26, 2015
That's unfortunate. Maybe I was a little windy but I wasn't trying to have a knock-down drag-out brawl or anything.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:31 PM on October 26, 2015
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:31 PM on October 26, 2015
There was a pretty good discussion about this on MeFi when Allie Brosh was the guest - Gross asked Brosh in surprising detail about how she had planned to commit suicide, and Brosh ended up sharing some stuff she hadn't even told her partner. A lot of people thought that this went wayyyy over a line (and I am inclined to agree), but it also seemed to really resonate with some folks.
posted by naoko at 3:20 PM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by naoko at 3:20 PM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by Xavier Xavier at 8:35 AM on October 25, 2015 [5 favorites]