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October 27, 2015 6:17 PM Subscribe
Amber Rose wrote the book on it: How to Be a Bad Bitch
Jezebel covers Amber Rose's unhappiness with the framing of the GQ article:
Here we have the crux of this entire situation. Discussing a woman like Amber Rose is a bit of a catch-22. She is, of course, so much more than her past relationships, but they are also the reason many of us know who she is. How do we contextualize her while also respecting her individuality?
...
It’s fascinating to watch a woman like Amber Rose navigate the world of fame and her journey to build a real career and name for herself outside of the men she was and is linked to. She, like many celebrities in her position, is sort of doing this backwards. She became famous first and is now establishing the framework to maintain that notoriety.
What we’re also seeing at play is the larger issue of how women are and are not allowed to frame themselves. To some degree, we’re all at the mercy of public opinion, but Amber Rose is challenging how much she will allow those opinions to play into her future.
11 Times Amber Rose Was Unapologetically Feminist
A Feminist History of Amber Rose (related: How the Fashion Industry is Quietly Fighting Slut-Shaming)
The Complicated Feminism of Amber Rose's SlutWalk:
This is often the rub with celebrity feminism — it’s at odds with and helped by capitalism, which many a feminist theorist has argued is an inherently patriarchal system of power. How do you distinguish between real interest and an opportunist cashing in on a trend? Some would argue that the entrepreneurship and the individualism behind a branded SlutWalk run counter to the ideas of feminism. We seem to be living in a strange, upside-down sort of world, where Rose is an evangelist who shouts her feminism to the world from the bio on her Twitter page, but actress Meryl Streep declines to identify as feminist.
Amber Rose's Walk Of No Shame
Jezebel covers Amber Rose's unhappiness with the framing of the GQ article:
Here we have the crux of this entire situation. Discussing a woman like Amber Rose is a bit of a catch-22. She is, of course, so much more than her past relationships, but they are also the reason many of us know who she is. How do we contextualize her while also respecting her individuality?
...
It’s fascinating to watch a woman like Amber Rose navigate the world of fame and her journey to build a real career and name for herself outside of the men she was and is linked to. She, like many celebrities in her position, is sort of doing this backwards. She became famous first and is now establishing the framework to maintain that notoriety.
What we’re also seeing at play is the larger issue of how women are and are not allowed to frame themselves. To some degree, we’re all at the mercy of public opinion, but Amber Rose is challenging how much she will allow those opinions to play into her future.
11 Times Amber Rose Was Unapologetically Feminist
A Feminist History of Amber Rose (related: How the Fashion Industry is Quietly Fighting Slut-Shaming)
The Complicated Feminism of Amber Rose's SlutWalk:
This is often the rub with celebrity feminism — it’s at odds with and helped by capitalism, which many a feminist theorist has argued is an inherently patriarchal system of power. How do you distinguish between real interest and an opportunist cashing in on a trend? Some would argue that the entrepreneurship and the individualism behind a branded SlutWalk run counter to the ideas of feminism. We seem to be living in a strange, upside-down sort of world, where Rose is an evangelist who shouts her feminism to the world from the bio on her Twitter page, but actress Meryl Streep declines to identify as feminist.
Amber Rose's Walk Of No Shame
Worst advice Amber Rose gives women in her new book, according to Refinery29.
posted by matildaben at 6:49 PM on October 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by matildaben at 6:49 PM on October 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
i love amber rose. i don't always love everything she does, but i love that she's out there.
posted by nadawi at 7:04 PM on October 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:04 PM on October 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
I read that Refinery29 article too and while about half of their points I feel like I can agree with out of context, there are a couple I feel like I need to wait to addressuntil after I've read the book, and frankly one or two that I disagree with entirely, at least in the sense that we're living in this world, not an ideal one. One or two of them are things I'd advise my own daughters, with some couching that makes the advice a little less "do this to be cool" and "consider this, to be able to enjoy your life without shame or regret".
posted by padraigin at 7:29 PM on October 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by padraigin at 7:29 PM on October 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
When that Refinery29 article equated her with a catcaller because she included advice about always staying positive, I figured it was another one of those articles by women who identify as feminist and praise Amber Rose out of one side of their mouth for being so fierce, and trash her out of the other side of the mouth for oh gosh all kinds of things. Like slides 5, 6, 7... to me the grievances read as petty and grasping.
posted by palomar at 7:38 PM on October 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by palomar at 7:38 PM on October 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
I feel like the one about the "unattractive girl on the dance floor"--maybe word it differently, and it becomes some of the best advice a lot of young women are ever given about themselves, that being "conventionally pretty" isn't really nearly as interesting to most people as being ACTUALLY INTERESTING, so whatever you actually look like, don't coast on it--figure out how to enjoy your life, and your people will find you.
And frankly the blow job advice might have been VERY HELPFUL DATA for teenaged me back in pre-internet, small town, low access to information times, depending on what the entire unredacted passage actually says.
posted by padraigin at 7:46 PM on October 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
And frankly the blow job advice might have been VERY HELPFUL DATA for teenaged me back in pre-internet, small town, low access to information times, depending on what the entire unredacted passage actually says.
posted by padraigin at 7:46 PM on October 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Amber Rose backlash reminds me a little bit of the early Kim Kardashian backlash a few years ago.
I also love Amber Rose and that Refinery29 article reads a little like a mean-sprited hit piece to me. I don't have the book and the full context isn't given in the article, but I strongly suspect that several of those quotes are taken out of context. I think a lot of the blowback she gets is because she doesn't fit in the "respectable" feminism of Emma Watson or Meryl Streep (aka white feminism) and I think there's more to Amber Rose than we (society) are willing to acknowledge. If there's room in the feminist sphere for people like Tina Fey, Lena Dunham and Taylor Swift but somehow Amber Rose doesn't measure up, then I think we're moving into the realm of something uglier than just not being a good enough feminist.
It is true that the marriage between popular culture and social justice advocacy is guaranteed to produce annotated messages that are void of intersectionality. But this truth doesn’t invalidate the work of women like Amber Rose. In fact, it situates them as regular human beings with blind spots who are trying to navigate multiple social locations and find their fit in the feminist movement. When we accept that, we make room for women to come to feminism from the streets of South Philly, the stripper pole, or the gulf of a divorce from the cheating father of your child.
I don't know the answer to any of this. But feminism is a fluid thing and I love that Amber Rose is pushing boundaries and unapologetic about it because I think she's forcing us to examine a lot of things more closely, which (in addition to her outspokenness on slut-shaming and other issues) is also very valuable.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:00 PM on October 27, 2015 [17 favorites]
I also love Amber Rose and that Refinery29 article reads a little like a mean-sprited hit piece to me. I don't have the book and the full context isn't given in the article, but I strongly suspect that several of those quotes are taken out of context. I think a lot of the blowback she gets is because she doesn't fit in the "respectable" feminism of Emma Watson or Meryl Streep (aka white feminism) and I think there's more to Amber Rose than we (society) are willing to acknowledge. If there's room in the feminist sphere for people like Tina Fey, Lena Dunham and Taylor Swift but somehow Amber Rose doesn't measure up, then I think we're moving into the realm of something uglier than just not being a good enough feminist.
It is true that the marriage between popular culture and social justice advocacy is guaranteed to produce annotated messages that are void of intersectionality. But this truth doesn’t invalidate the work of women like Amber Rose. In fact, it situates them as regular human beings with blind spots who are trying to navigate multiple social locations and find their fit in the feminist movement. When we accept that, we make room for women to come to feminism from the streets of South Philly, the stripper pole, or the gulf of a divorce from the cheating father of your child.
I don't know the answer to any of this. But feminism is a fluid thing and I love that Amber Rose is pushing boundaries and unapologetic about it because I think she's forcing us to examine a lot of things more closely, which (in addition to her outspokenness on slut-shaming and other issues) is also very valuable.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:00 PM on October 27, 2015 [17 favorites]
If there's room in the feminist sphere for people like Tina Fey, Lena Dunham and Taylor Swift but somehow Amber Rose doesn't measure up, then I think we're moving into the realm of something uglier than just not being a good enough feminist.
YUP. Big fat yup to everything you said, triggerfinger, but especially this.
posted by palomar at 8:07 PM on October 27, 2015 [11 favorites]
YUP. Big fat yup to everything you said, triggerfinger, but especially this.
posted by palomar at 8:07 PM on October 27, 2015 [11 favorites]
You know I think the reason Amber Rose is problematic is also the reason she's important. I very much consider myself a feminist, but I often struggle with my own feminist beliefs because I don't live up to them myself. And I don't live up to them because the world actively rejects them and I still want to live in this world and be accepted by people and date men, even if those people and those men aren't very good feminists. I mean sure there is a line and I tend to run in very progressive liberal circles, but even so I buy in. I play the game. And I think that's why Amber Rose is very interesting because she too has bought in and she too is still playing the game. Even if she knows the game is largely bullshit. She's not actively rejecting it and as a result she's sometimes contradictory and hypocritical. I think that's ok though because forward motion is forward motion. And who isn't contradictory and hypocritical sometimes?
Amber Rose contains multitudes.
She represents a very different point of view in the feminist world and I think in her own weird way, is very relatable. Feminism should be a big tent and it's really not right now. There shouldn't be a purity test to get in the door.
posted by whoaali at 8:14 PM on October 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
Amber Rose contains multitudes.
She represents a very different point of view in the feminist world and I think in her own weird way, is very relatable. Feminism should be a big tent and it's really not right now. There shouldn't be a purity test to get in the door.
posted by whoaali at 8:14 PM on October 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
Also, forgot to mention that you may remember GQ from the super nasty piece they did on sex workers a few months ago. Feminism has a lot of glaring blind spots (which the MSM plays right into) - one of them is sex work/sexuality and one of them is intersectional issues. Amber Rose captures both of these.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:15 PM on October 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by triggerfinger at 8:15 PM on October 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wish Amber Rose would create some kind of ShadeRoulette app. She claps back like she invented it, and I'd pay money to witness it when she's on a roll.
Her feminism is definitely engendering a following, and I'm seeing more actresses, models, etc. support each other when they call out rampant sexism and double standards.
Also, she is not to be fucked with. I respect that. She knows who she is and doesn't apologize for it.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:35 PM on October 27, 2015
Her feminism is definitely engendering a following, and I'm seeing more actresses, models, etc. support each other when they call out rampant sexism and double standards.
Also, she is not to be fucked with. I respect that. She knows who she is and doesn't apologize for it.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:35 PM on October 27, 2015
She's not actively rejecting it and as a result she's sometimes contradictory and hypocritical.
I think she's not just not rejecting the game, as if it were something odious she had to endure under duress, or enjoyed bits of in secret shame; she's a fighter, who's used the tools at her disposal with pleasure. She's empowered herself through objectification and self-objectification, and had a good time doing it, that's what people dislike. (Not a new story in that way, both her background and people moralizing over it.) She started out with hard knocks, sounds like; that can make a person bold in ways more comfortable people find distasteful.
She loved the men who made her famous, she's said; why not believe her? She can be canny and authentic at once.
I'm still amazed that just performing yourself (with not even the pretense of art for a fig leaf) is an actual job these days, but she's running with it, and it's interesting.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:13 PM on October 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think she's not just not rejecting the game, as if it were something odious she had to endure under duress, or enjoyed bits of in secret shame; she's a fighter, who's used the tools at her disposal with pleasure. She's empowered herself through objectification and self-objectification, and had a good time doing it, that's what people dislike. (Not a new story in that way, both her background and people moralizing over it.) She started out with hard knocks, sounds like; that can make a person bold in ways more comfortable people find distasteful.
She loved the men who made her famous, she's said; why not believe her? She can be canny and authentic at once.
I'm still amazed that just performing yourself (with not even the pretense of art for a fig leaf) is an actual job these days, but she's running with it, and it's interesting.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:13 PM on October 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yes, that Refinery29 piece is hella petty. Two of the tips are essentially: "don't be afraid to have fun and be enthusiastic during sex" and "even someone who isn't conventionally attractive becomes attractive when they are having fun and loving themselves and their bodies", told in the same snarky tone you find in plenty of Canonical Feminist™ media.
Maybe the book really is awful, but I wish Vanessa Golembewski would think twice about whether the world really needs another white woman gatekeeper nitpicking the tone/language of a woman of color. If the book's problematic enough that you feel you simply need to call something out, do it in a thoughtful way... not in a listicle where you have to include bogus entries just to meet your quota.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 10:23 PM on October 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
Maybe the book really is awful, but I wish Vanessa Golembewski would think twice about whether the world really needs another white woman gatekeeper nitpicking the tone/language of a woman of color. If the book's problematic enough that you feel you simply need to call something out, do it in a thoughtful way... not in a listicle where you have to include bogus entries just to meet your quota.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 10:23 PM on October 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
She is, of course, so much more than her past relationships, but they are also the reason many of us know who she is
How do you distinguish between real interest and an opportunist cashing in on a trend?
I find these two statements quite interesting. Celebrities date a lot of people that *aren't* famous, you know? I feel like this statement really elides both the reality and acknowledgement that Amber Rose, in this case, is actually a woman and a person in her own right, regardless of how she's reported, but also the chauvinism of society and the media - e.g. Amal fucking Clooney, married to a dude and now reduced to his handbag. It's not coincidence we know about or think about these (often powerful) women in relation to the men they choose to be with; we don't stumble onto that, we are actively guided to it.
Secondly, "how do we know if they're a true feminist, ughhhhh. Feminism means different things to different people, yo. I'm not really interested in some kind of purity test, if Amber Rose is practicising a feminism/femininity that women are getting something out of, power to her whether it's "real" or fake (what the fuck does that even mean, really? Like honestly?). And you know, power to her if she's not. Amber - or any woman - doesn't have to be some kind of holy living, breathing feminist avatar, you know? I dunno, I just feel like that line of argument is another way of attacking women simply for being human women - attack her ideas, their effects, etc. But saying she's a fake or whatever feels like another way of reducing women to me. And I say all this as someone who's hardly marching in lockstep to her every opinion. Vive le difference.
posted by smoke at 3:05 AM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
How do you distinguish between real interest and an opportunist cashing in on a trend?
I find these two statements quite interesting. Celebrities date a lot of people that *aren't* famous, you know? I feel like this statement really elides both the reality and acknowledgement that Amber Rose, in this case, is actually a woman and a person in her own right, regardless of how she's reported, but also the chauvinism of society and the media - e.g. Amal fucking Clooney, married to a dude and now reduced to his handbag. It's not coincidence we know about or think about these (often powerful) women in relation to the men they choose to be with; we don't stumble onto that, we are actively guided to it.
Secondly, "how do we know if they're a true feminist, ughhhhh. Feminism means different things to different people, yo. I'm not really interested in some kind of purity test, if Amber Rose is practicising a feminism/femininity that women are getting something out of, power to her whether it's "real" or fake (what the fuck does that even mean, really? Like honestly?). And you know, power to her if she's not. Amber - or any woman - doesn't have to be some kind of holy living, breathing feminist avatar, you know? I dunno, I just feel like that line of argument is another way of attacking women simply for being human women - attack her ideas, their effects, etc. But saying she's a fake or whatever feels like another way of reducing women to me. And I say all this as someone who's hardly marching in lockstep to her every opinion. Vive le difference.
posted by smoke at 3:05 AM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Let's not get into a Lena Dunham derail / fight, please.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:14 AM on October 28, 2015
posted by taz (staff) at 4:14 AM on October 28, 2015
I'd never heard of her before this FPP (though I had seen a photo of her VMA dress), but the ways she is described in a couple of the links, the GQ and the Refinery29 ones especially, is shameful. I'm obviously not any expert on celebrity culture, but she sounds like she is living a feminist identity assertively and positively, and receives an extraordinary amount of repugnant criticism as a result.
The walk of no shame video is great, too.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:46 AM on October 28, 2015
The walk of no shame video is great, too.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:46 AM on October 28, 2015
I dunno, I read through the Refinery29 quotes, and they all did seem like, "You should do this thing because men will love it." I liked Amber Rose's Slut Walk, but lots of the Refinery29 quotes DID seem pretty anti-feminist to me.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 5:32 AM on October 28, 2015
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 5:32 AM on October 28, 2015
From the deleted comment, here was the relevant material:
I'm willing to give Amber Rose the time of day on feminist issues--where I tend to side-eye Kim Kardashian--because Amber Rose is willing to engage feminism in a way that Kim doesn't. I disagree with Amber on some things, but she's talking about slut-shaming and being seen as an autonomous figure. I respect Kim's business acumen, but I see her as selling an outmoded femininity that casts women as objects and is uncritically consumerist.
posted by pxe2000 at 5:45 AM on October 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm willing to give Amber Rose the time of day on feminist issues--where I tend to side-eye Kim Kardashian--because Amber Rose is willing to engage feminism in a way that Kim doesn't. I disagree with Amber on some things, but she's talking about slut-shaming and being seen as an autonomous figure. I respect Kim's business acumen, but I see her as selling an outmoded femininity that casts women as objects and is uncritically consumerist.
posted by pxe2000 at 5:45 AM on October 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'd rather see perspectives from FOC than the same old same old from white feminists as they consistently don't listen to FOC. (Or if they do, they talk about how black Twitter is so mean to them.)
Amber Rose is interesting, cool, and ready to take on all haters. That is awesome.
posted by Kitteh at 6:13 AM on October 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Amber Rose is interesting, cool, and ready to take on all haters. That is awesome.
posted by Kitteh at 6:13 AM on October 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've never heard of her, but she seems to have her shit together.
posted by clvrmnky at 6:31 AM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by clvrmnky at 6:31 AM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I also think there are strong in-group/out-group issues with how Amber Rose is interpreted. From things I've observed and people I've worked with, I know that performing sexuality and femininity read differently within African-American/Black communities than they do in White culture. Based on her background, I also think that Amber Rose is a sex-positive feminist, which is not necessarily a perspective from which I see and experience feminism.
There are some problematic issues within Amber Rose's writing, to be sure, and I disagree with her on some things. However, I've been reluctant to speak on the places where I disagree with her because I'm coming from the perspective of a working-class White woman, and some things that don't read as feminist to me, personally, are things that might resonate with other women who share her background.
So there's that.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:19 AM on October 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
There are some problematic issues within Amber Rose's writing, to be sure, and I disagree with her on some things. However, I've been reluctant to speak on the places where I disagree with her because I'm coming from the perspective of a working-class White woman, and some things that don't read as feminist to me, personally, are things that might resonate with other women who share her background.
So there's that.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:19 AM on October 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
The URL for the GQ article is gross.
posted by joedan at 12:13 PM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by joedan at 12:13 PM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Problematic, uncomfortable feminism is infinitely better than no feminism at all. Contrast with so-called misandry concern trolling, the smallest amount of which poisons any dialogue.
Suddenly it's easy to see the sexism inherent to the system, innit?
posted by clvrmnky at 3:15 PM on October 28, 2015
Suddenly it's easy to see the sexism inherent to the system, innit?
posted by clvrmnky at 3:15 PM on October 28, 2015
I also think there are strong in-group/out-group issues with how Amber Rose is interpreted. From things I've observed and people I've worked with, I know that performing sexuality and femininity read differently within African-American/Black communities than they do in White culture.
I think she stands in an odd in-between place from this perspective, being biracial, light-skinned, but strongly associated with famous Black men.
posted by atoxyl at 3:47 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think she stands in an odd in-between place from this perspective, being biracial, light-skinned, but strongly associated with famous Black men.
posted by atoxyl at 3:47 PM on October 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
i'd have to go find the quote, but she's been pretty clear that she doesn't identify as black - not in an shitty raven symone type way, but in a "i don't want to speak for others or tell their stories" sort of way. she seems to understand the privilege of being light-skinned and doesn't want to pretend like she's faced all the same struggles as other people might have.
posted by nadawi at 4:40 PM on October 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 4:40 PM on October 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
I didn't know that, nadawi. As I said, her experience is so different from my own that I have a hard time criticizing her without recognizing that she's coming to feminism with different baggage than my own.
posted by pxe2000 at 4:48 PM on October 28, 2015
posted by pxe2000 at 4:48 PM on October 28, 2015
oh yeah, i wasn't critiquing you at all, i was just adding what i knew of her self identification. i agree that her approach is not my approach for a lot of different reasons and her race is definitely one of those - she's lived through stuff i haven't and it makes me better to pay attention to what she's saying. she's not trying to push her feminism into the white feminism model and i think that is necessary for us to really get to next level of freedom, to listen to those who don't fit into our preconceptions.
posted by nadawi at 5:52 PM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 5:52 PM on October 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
she's lived through stuff i haven't and it makes me better to pay attention to what she's saying. she's not trying to push her feminism into the white feminism model and i think that is necessary for us to really get to next level of freedom, to listen to those who don't fit into our preconceptions.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of the concept of meeting people where they are in a lot of areas but especially in feminism, where there are a hella lot of women who are just NOT going to relate in any way to Emma Watson or Meryl Streep. If there's a woman who has some pretty great ideas can get more women to be receptive to feminism and bring them on board, then that helps all of us. Has Amber Rose said things that are problematic? Maybe. Assuming the quotes from her book are not taken out of context at all (which I am not convinced of, but for the sake of argument), and she really is saying "hey ladies, here's how to please a man!" Then...okay? I maybe don't agree with it, but again, high-profile white feminists do and say things that are offensive and odious again and again and they get invited to host the Golden Globes, not thinkpieces written about them by a writer who has combed through their book to cherrypick "problematic" passages. White feminists are always given the benefit of the doubt. Women of color - especially women like Amber Rose, who embrace and celebrate their sexuality - start from a place of suspicion and have to almost earn the right to make mistakes. And like any other kind of racism, there's always going to be a reason why she's not good enough or not doing it right. Because no one is perfect and even if she were, it wouldn't matter in this regard, because feminism is so personal and subjective and is constantly evolving. Which is exactly why I think that none of this has much at all to do with what she does or says and everything to do with who she is.
Here's another great article on race, feminism and sexuality:
Somehow questioning a woman’s feminism is totally verboten if it’s Lena Dunham being pressured into paying performers on her book tour or Sheryl Sandberg not paying interns, but nitpicking is actively encouraged if it’s Nicki Minaj or Beyoncé, despite the latter employing an all female band, and the former routinely subverting the misogynistic tropes of rap and hip-hop.
There’s also a strain of elitism at play. Emma Watson, she of the “be nice to men” UN speech, is more academic. She has a degree, and her feminism is intellectual. She is the “right” kind of feminist. Beyoncé on the other hand didn’t finish high school. Her feminism is lived and she performs in flashy leotards. There’s a perpetuation of the perception that Beyoncé doesn’t really know anything about feminism because she hasn’t studied it. But the thing is, the reason that resonates with so many black women, is because she came into her praxis the same way most of us did: through life experiences, trial and error, and yes, the Internet. But to the mainstream feminist movement, this truth delegitimizes her feminist work for the simple fact is that Beyoncé’s feminism is not FOR white girls. It’s not going to work for you because it’s not supposed to. That you might benefit from it is incidental and completely tangential to the point.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:31 PM on October 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I'm a big fan of the concept of meeting people where they are in a lot of areas but especially in feminism, where there are a hella lot of women who are just NOT going to relate in any way to Emma Watson or Meryl Streep. If there's a woman who has some pretty great ideas can get more women to be receptive to feminism and bring them on board, then that helps all of us. Has Amber Rose said things that are problematic? Maybe. Assuming the quotes from her book are not taken out of context at all (which I am not convinced of, but for the sake of argument), and she really is saying "hey ladies, here's how to please a man!" Then...okay? I maybe don't agree with it, but again, high-profile white feminists do and say things that are offensive and odious again and again and they get invited to host the Golden Globes, not thinkpieces written about them by a writer who has combed through their book to cherrypick "problematic" passages. White feminists are always given the benefit of the doubt. Women of color - especially women like Amber Rose, who embrace and celebrate their sexuality - start from a place of suspicion and have to almost earn the right to make mistakes. And like any other kind of racism, there's always going to be a reason why she's not good enough or not doing it right. Because no one is perfect and even if she were, it wouldn't matter in this regard, because feminism is so personal and subjective and is constantly evolving. Which is exactly why I think that none of this has much at all to do with what she does or says and everything to do with who she is.
Here's another great article on race, feminism and sexuality:
Somehow questioning a woman’s feminism is totally verboten if it’s Lena Dunham being pressured into paying performers on her book tour or Sheryl Sandberg not paying interns, but nitpicking is actively encouraged if it’s Nicki Minaj or Beyoncé, despite the latter employing an all female band, and the former routinely subverting the misogynistic tropes of rap and hip-hop.
There’s also a strain of elitism at play. Emma Watson, she of the “be nice to men” UN speech, is more academic. She has a degree, and her feminism is intellectual. She is the “right” kind of feminist. Beyoncé on the other hand didn’t finish high school. Her feminism is lived and she performs in flashy leotards. There’s a perpetuation of the perception that Beyoncé doesn’t really know anything about feminism because she hasn’t studied it. But the thing is, the reason that resonates with so many black women, is because she came into her praxis the same way most of us did: through life experiences, trial and error, and yes, the Internet. But to the mainstream feminist movement, this truth delegitimizes her feminist work for the simple fact is that Beyoncé’s feminism is not FOR white girls. It’s not going to work for you because it’s not supposed to. That you might benefit from it is incidental and completely tangential to the point.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:31 PM on October 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't know if anyone's still reading this thread, but I've had this thought rolling around in my head and thought it was relevant:
I am way, way more likely to give women of color the benefit of the doubt for voicing problematic views while identifying as feminist than I am to cut White Feminists the same slack. Part of it is because some White Feminists (who I will not name because it might derail the thread) have done some things that have gone beyond problematic and have been actively harmful, but are not questioned in their identification as feminists. A lot of it, though, is because I haven't had the experience women/feminists of color have had, and some of the things with which I might take issue are things I might not be reading correctly because of that. The fact that so many White Feminists have interpreted things Feminists of Color have done in bad faith (usually as related to family and gender/sexuality performance) makes me more likely to at least try and understand that perspective and to sympathize with them.
This might be redundant, given my previous participation in the thread, but I've been thinking about it and thought it might be worth saying.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:30 AM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am way, way more likely to give women of color the benefit of the doubt for voicing problematic views while identifying as feminist than I am to cut White Feminists the same slack. Part of it is because some White Feminists (who I will not name because it might derail the thread) have done some things that have gone beyond problematic and have been actively harmful, but are not questioned in their identification as feminists. A lot of it, though, is because I haven't had the experience women/feminists of color have had, and some of the things with which I might take issue are things I might not be reading correctly because of that. The fact that so many White Feminists have interpreted things Feminists of Color have done in bad faith (usually as related to family and gender/sexuality performance) makes me more likely to at least try and understand that perspective and to sympathize with them.
This might be redundant, given my previous participation in the thread, but I've been thinking about it and thought it might be worth saying.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:30 AM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Amber Rose is a very interesting person, thanks. I wonder if an aspect of the "distance" expressed by commenters here is simply that, if you expect to be denied financial or social advancement outright, then you'll feel more freedom not to coddle asshats. In other word, a non-famous Amber Rose feels freer to flaunt her sexuality more because she need not fear that rejecting, or even mocking, advances she doesn't want now would cost her finical or social opportunities in the future. At the other extreme, Harvard student who offends a Skull & Bones member by rejecting his advance risks not being invited to some important party sometime, meaning she benefits slightly from influencing what goes on in the advancer's head before hand. And it always sucks to try to game other people's impressions, expectations, etc. like that. I suppose many objections to sex-positive feminism boil down to "It's too simplistic, idealistic, etc. for my social situation".
posted by jeffburdges at 6:09 AM on November 6, 2015
posted by jeffburdges at 6:09 AM on November 6, 2015
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I'm next on the wait list for the book from the library and I'm pretty excited. It sounds like it will be as much fun as it will be rage-at-injustice-y.
posted by padraigin at 6:28 PM on October 27, 2015 [11 favorites]