And ain’t I a woman?
November 18, 2015 11:11 AM Subscribe
"Young women could now do more than read about feminist issues and discuss them in class; they could find communities of women on Twitter or Tumblr whose experiences they could relate to—or who could open up new vistas for them on what other women’s lives are like. They could participate in the creation of a new feminism—one that would be a far cry from Friedan’s. By 2011, the writer Flavia Dzodan was famously declaring on her blog: “My feminism will be intersectional or it will be bullshit.” Her words became a rallying cry."
Oh, I like this article--even if it's exactly what I'd expect from other young leftist, feminist women my age. I remember when Dzodan's post hit my RSS feed when it came out, and I remember the shock of "yes! yes, this, this, this is incredibly important!" sort of resonating into my opinions about what it means to have politics that actually try to ameliorate injustice. I'm really not sure Clinton gets this--but if she doesn't, man is she doing a bad bad job of paying attention. (If that's the case, that's another big strike against her in terms of her political acuity and the strategists they're listening to, because feminists my age are incredibly unsubtle about it and it's not remotely new.) Her age really shouldn't be an excuse, either, because Sanders absolutely understands this and is running with it, and that man is older than dirt.
posted by sciatrix at 12:25 PM on November 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 12:25 PM on November 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
Isn't that a classic "damned if she does, damned if she doesn't" situation, though, klanawa?
posted by Xavier Xavier at 12:26 PM on November 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Xavier Xavier at 12:26 PM on November 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
a 22-year-old weekend editor at Vice, summed up a common sentiment among these women: “I’m glad we have a female presidential candidate,” she told me, “but it’s incredibly difficult to get excited about something that should have happened decades ago.”
Oh yeah, sorry, we were kinda busy during those decades - trying to eliminate back-alley abortion deaths, convincing judges that wife-beating was an actual crime, being able to get bank loans and credit in our own names - just stuff like that.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 12:32 PM on November 18, 2015 [50 favorites]
Oh yeah, sorry, we were kinda busy during those decades - trying to eliminate back-alley abortion deaths, convincing judges that wife-beating was an actual crime, being able to get bank loans and credit in our own names - just stuff like that.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 12:32 PM on November 18, 2015 [50 favorites]
My point isn't about what Clinton needs to do to win. Politics is always about making deals with the Devil. The point is about the way people respond to political marketing as if it were representative of the candidate's actual philosophical or ideological inclinations.
posted by klanawa at 12:34 PM on November 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 12:34 PM on November 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
Mary Ellen Carter: I didn't get the impression she was attempting to attack the work that feminists were doing then, but rather frustrated that it's taken so long to get to the point where we are now.
posted by el io at 12:35 PM on November 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by el io at 12:35 PM on November 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
candidate's actual philosophical or ideological inclinations.
One of the things about this article that puzzled me was the lack of any type of policy that people were or weren't against. The entire article seemed to be about how Clinton was being marketed to progressive feminists, and not about changing her support, or lack thereof, for policies.
posted by zabuni at 12:38 PM on November 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
One of the things about this article that puzzled me was the lack of any type of policy that people were or weren't against. The entire article seemed to be about how Clinton was being marketed to progressive feminists, and not about changing her support, or lack thereof, for policies.
posted by zabuni at 12:38 PM on November 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
I believe that Clinton sincerely wants to help all women in America, but I also believe that her policies will inevitably do the most good for women who are wealthy, white and well-educated like herself, and that she, consciously or otherwise, thinks these policies will just sort of automatically also help women who don't fall into these categories. Trickle-down social justice, if you will.
I think Sanders groks intersectionality a damn sight better than Clinton does.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:44 PM on November 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
I think Sanders groks intersectionality a damn sight better than Clinton does.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:44 PM on November 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
I think Sanders groks intersectionality a damn sight better than Clinton does.
I would have to disagree. I think he's much worse at it, because he tries to cram every issue into a class based view. It seems like it mainly because of how class touches so many bits of our society, but when class is orthogonal to other issues, that's how you wind up with "don't vote your race".
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:50 PM on November 18, 2015 [16 favorites]
I would have to disagree. I think he's much worse at it, because he tries to cram every issue into a class based view. It seems like it mainly because of how class touches so many bits of our society, but when class is orthogonal to other issues, that's how you wind up with "don't vote your race".
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:50 PM on November 18, 2015 [16 favorites]
One of the things about this article that puzzled me was the lack of any type of policy that people were or weren't against. The entire article seemed to be about how Clinton was being marketed to progressive feminists, and not about changing her support, or lack thereof, for policies.
Despite the interesting title & content, the election hangs over the piece. That is, it could be subtitled “Will Young Women Not Support Hillary Clinton (and thus cost her the election)?” Without bringing the other candidates into the mix and how young women think about them, that framing feels like a sham. Who will they support instead of her? Who do they think will be better on intersectionality or other modern feminist issues? Articles like this will be better after the campaign is over and they can address Clinton’s feminism vs. that of the youth of today in isolation and on their own terms.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:02 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Despite the interesting title & content, the election hangs over the piece. That is, it could be subtitled “Will Young Women Not Support Hillary Clinton (and thus cost her the election)?” Without bringing the other candidates into the mix and how young women think about them, that framing feels like a sham. Who will they support instead of her? Who do they think will be better on intersectionality or other modern feminist issues? Articles like this will be better after the campaign is over and they can address Clinton’s feminism vs. that of the youth of today in isolation and on their own terms.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:02 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm troubled by people wondering if we should or should not vote for Hillary as if they don't understand that her personal beliefs and politics only matter to the extent that she's not Republican and won't repeal Roe vs Wade.
posted by bleep at 1:03 PM on November 18, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by bleep at 1:03 PM on November 18, 2015 [22 favorites]
I find this wording telling:
"I recently interviewed 47 young women, most in their early to mid-20s, who call themselves feminists;" (emphasis mine).
If the article where about, say, Star Trek fans or grave diggers or vegetarians or Evangelicals I doubt they'd use the 'who call themselves X' formulation.
I guess it's a nod to the 'who's a real feminist'-wars of 2014.
posted by signal at 1:11 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
"I recently interviewed 47 young women, most in their early to mid-20s, who call themselves feminists;" (emphasis mine).
If the article where about, say, Star Trek fans or grave diggers or vegetarians or Evangelicals I doubt they'd use the 'who call themselves X' formulation.
I guess it's a nod to the 'who's a real feminist'-wars of 2014.
posted by signal at 1:11 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm troubled by people wondering if we should or should not vote for Hillary as if they don't understand that her personal beliefs and politics only matter to the extent that she's not Republican and won't repeal Roe vs Wade.
I think it’s one thing to judge Clinton in the context of the candidate that you’d like to see, or that you’d like to influence her to be. (Ditto any candidate, really.) But when it comes to voting, I think you have to pick a candidate based on the field presented. Because it’s election season, this article conflates the two.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:16 PM on November 18, 2015
I think it’s one thing to judge Clinton in the context of the candidate that you’d like to see, or that you’d like to influence her to be. (Ditto any candidate, really.) But when it comes to voting, I think you have to pick a candidate based on the field presented. Because it’s election season, this article conflates the two.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:16 PM on November 18, 2015
Sanders himself I bet is just dumb as hell about the intersection of race and class; this is an artifact of him being a white socialist, white socialists being a group of people who on the whole are notorious for their tendencies1 to reduce all forms of oppression to class-based oppression. Moreover, he's a white socialist from Vermont, a state that is extremely white due to its history of exclusion and segregation, and so has been able to get away with not thinking too hard about race.2
BUT he's smart enough, and reasonable enough, to accept the following facts:
Neither Clinton nor Sanders can be expected to "get it" in abstract terms. But in concrete terms we have some power over Sanders and none whatsoever over Clinton.
1: pun intended
2: I don't have time to round up the links right now, but Vermont's history is sort of like Oregon's. Remember that all-white towns, cities, and states in the north in America never got that way by chance. they got that way through using violence (state violence, economic violence, and retail-scale street violence) to chase out and then keep out the people of color.
3: no pun intended.
4: This is, as far as I can tell, why he insists on the more radical "democratic socialist" formulation over the "social democrat" one that appears to accurately describes his politics. It's a subtle message (to the people who can hear it) that he doesn't actually think bourgeois electoral politics in and of themselves are a useful lever for achieving working-class power in America at this particular historical moment.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:26 PM on November 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
BUT he's smart enough, and reasonable enough, to accept the following facts:
- That the radical movements against white supremacy and police terrorism have a better analysis of the current situation in America than he does, and,
- If he wants to have any chance whatsoever of capitalizing3 on his possible victory in New Hampshire, he needs to win South Carolina. And winning a Democratic Party primary in South Carolina requires having and articulating an analysis of power in America that acknowledges that every conversation in America is a conversation about race.
Neither Clinton nor Sanders can be expected to "get it" in abstract terms. But in concrete terms we have some power over Sanders and none whatsoever over Clinton.
1: pun intended
2: I don't have time to round up the links right now, but Vermont's history is sort of like Oregon's. Remember that all-white towns, cities, and states in the north in America never got that way by chance. they got that way through using violence (state violence, economic violence, and retail-scale street violence) to chase out and then keep out the people of color.
3: no pun intended.
4: This is, as far as I can tell, why he insists on the more radical "democratic socialist" formulation over the "social democrat" one that appears to accurately describes his politics. It's a subtle message (to the people who can hear it) that he doesn't actually think bourgeois electoral politics in and of themselves are a useful lever for achieving working-class power in America at this particular historical moment.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:26 PM on November 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
That said, the only thing that makes me sad that Clinton is going to be the first female President is that she's got the same last name as a former President. But any discomfort I may have with the dynastic aspect of the upcoming Clinton presidency is drowned out in my mind by my utter disgust with the loud-and-proud misogyny coming from so many male/masculinist Sanders supporters.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:36 PM on November 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:36 PM on November 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
1: pun intended
What pun?
posted by Going To Maine at 1:31 PM on November 18 [+] [!]
It's semi-common to collectively refer to all the different squabbling little Trotskyist organizations as "the tendencies." Sorry, I may have been doing some dogwhistling myself there...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:37 PM on November 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
What pun?
posted by Going To Maine at 1:31 PM on November 18 [+] [!]
It's semi-common to collectively refer to all the different squabbling little Trotskyist organizations as "the tendencies." Sorry, I may have been doing some dogwhistling myself there...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:37 PM on November 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
If the article where about, say, Star Trek fans or grave diggers or vegetarians or Evangelicals I doubt they'd use the 'who call themselves X' formulation.
I guess it's a nod to the 'who's a real feminist'-wars of 2014.
I read it more as a nod to the idea that there are a lot of women who hold positions that line up with feminism, but don't like the label -- some because they're conservative, some because of propaganda about how feminists are fun-hating, men-loathing harpies, and a few from the left, with the last category mostly being lady activists of color who reject the traditional super-whiteness of mainstream American feminism.
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:40 PM on November 18, 2015 [13 favorites]
I guess it's a nod to the 'who's a real feminist'-wars of 2014.
I read it more as a nod to the idea that there are a lot of women who hold positions that line up with feminism, but don't like the label -- some because they're conservative, some because of propaganda about how feminists are fun-hating, men-loathing harpies, and a few from the left, with the last category mostly being lady activists of color who reject the traditional super-whiteness of mainstream American feminism.
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:40 PM on November 18, 2015 [13 favorites]
So much damn work to get everyone on the same page about our shared humanity and what that means in terms of our obligations to each other.
What a damn mess we've made. My wife asked me the other day if I was worried about all the "unrest" we've been seeing and how it seems that white folks are universally hated. My thought on that wasn't that we were hated but that now with the tools at hand in terms of ubiquitous video and publication channels that previously suppressed or disbelieved voices can present in a loud and undeniable way what their experience has been and why they're righteously mad.
We're going to be uncomfortable through this growth period, but hopefully we'll get it through our skulls that even with all the different lenses on reality gender/orientation/race/creed/etc - we're all deserving of the recognition and exercise of our basic humanity.
And no candidate is going to be perfect on this just like none of us are. We can be certain that there are some candidates that will, on the whole, be a damn sight worse than either Sanders or Clinton.
posted by drewbage1847 at 1:42 PM on November 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
What a damn mess we've made. My wife asked me the other day if I was worried about all the "unrest" we've been seeing and how it seems that white folks are universally hated. My thought on that wasn't that we were hated but that now with the tools at hand in terms of ubiquitous video and publication channels that previously suppressed or disbelieved voices can present in a loud and undeniable way what their experience has been and why they're righteously mad.
We're going to be uncomfortable through this growth period, but hopefully we'll get it through our skulls that even with all the different lenses on reality gender/orientation/race/creed/etc - we're all deserving of the recognition and exercise of our basic humanity.
And no candidate is going to be perfect on this just like none of us are. We can be certain that there are some candidates that will, on the whole, be a damn sight worse than either Sanders or Clinton.
posted by drewbage1847 at 1:42 PM on November 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
If the article where about, say, Star Trek fans or grave diggers or vegetarians or Evangelicals I doubt they'd use the 'who call themselves X' formulation.
I guess it's a nod to the 'who's a real feminist'-wars of 2014.
It's the distinction between someone who calls themselves a trekie versus someone who might happen to like the show but would never identify that way. Except of course with all the history and intersectionality associated with the term "feminist," which none of those other examples carry.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:01 PM on November 18, 2015
the only thing that makes me sad that Clinton is going to be the first female President is that she's got the same last name as a former President.
The only thing that makes me sad about it is that she voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq and wields power pretty much exactly according to the traditional rulebook of patriarchy. But we are overdue for a woman in the office.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:24 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
The only thing that makes me sad about it is that she voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq and wields power pretty much exactly according to the traditional rulebook of patriarchy. But we are overdue for a woman in the office.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:24 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
But for all that, she gets my vote if she gets the nom.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:26 PM on November 18, 2015
posted by saulgoodman at 7:26 PM on November 18, 2015
This is a great article - thanks for posting!
posted by triggerfinger at 8:32 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by triggerfinger at 8:32 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hmmmm. "But Warren steered away from dwelling too much on the Democratic presidential candidates. When asked if she would accept an invitation to serve as Clinton's vice president — to create an all-female ticket — she laughed and dodged.
'I'll tell you this,' she said, 'if I was Hillary Clinton's running mate, it would certainly be a complete woman ticket.'"
Interesting response.
posted by taz at 4:14 AM on November 19, 2015
'I'll tell you this,' she said, 'if I was Hillary Clinton's running mate, it would certainly be a complete woman ticket.'"
Interesting response.
posted by taz at 4:14 AM on November 19, 2015
What does that mean?
posted by Going To Maine at 5:22 AM on November 19, 2015
posted by Going To Maine at 5:22 AM on November 19, 2015
That's what I wonder. "Complete Woman" seems odd to me in this exchange ... like is she saying she could fill in the insufficiencies of a HRC presidency as vice president? Probably just my wishful thinking.
posted by taz at 5:47 AM on November 19, 2015
posted by taz at 5:47 AM on November 19, 2015
Just want to take a sec to say that social media changed the landscape of feminism—but before that, so did Riot Grrrl, just on a different (though profoundly culturally influential) scale.
Oh yeah, sorry, we were kinda busy during those decades - trying to eliminate back-alley abortion deaths, convincing judges that wife-beating was an actual crime, being able to get bank loans and credit in our own names - just stuff like that.
Oh, come on.
posted by listen, lady at 5:53 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Oh yeah, sorry, we were kinda busy during those decades - trying to eliminate back-alley abortion deaths, convincing judges that wife-beating was an actual crime, being able to get bank loans and credit in our own names - just stuff like that.
Oh, come on.
posted by listen, lady at 5:53 AM on November 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
My motto for feminism is very similar: "Intersectionality or GTFO."
White feminists--and I speak as a white feminist--completely hog the media when it comes to women's issues and often seem incapable of sitting down and listening to feminists of color. This is why I dig Twitter. There are so many amazing important voices out there that would never get heard otherwise. (Also, I see you, white feminist columnists, when you get tetchy when confronted with a black feminist who would like to know why you expect them to accept "trickle-down" feminism.)
posted by Kitteh at 6:35 AM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
White feminists--and I speak as a white feminist--completely hog the media when it comes to women's issues and often seem incapable of sitting down and listening to feminists of color. This is why I dig Twitter. There are so many amazing important voices out there that would never get heard otherwise. (Also, I see you, white feminist columnists, when you get tetchy when confronted with a black feminist who would like to know why you expect them to accept "trickle-down" feminism.)
posted by Kitteh at 6:35 AM on November 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
also, WAIT.
Oh yeah, sorry, we were kinda busy during those decades - trying to eliminate back-alley abortion deaths, convincing judges that wife-beating was an actual crime, being able to get bank loans and credit in our own names - just stuff like that.
No time to campaign for Shirley Chisholm, I guess?
posted by listen, lady at 12:17 PM on November 19, 2015
Oh yeah, sorry, we were kinda busy during those decades - trying to eliminate back-alley abortion deaths, convincing judges that wife-beating was an actual crime, being able to get bank loans and credit in our own names - just stuff like that.
No time to campaign for Shirley Chisholm, I guess?
posted by listen, lady at 12:17 PM on November 19, 2015
Unpacking Hillary Rodham Clinton's Privilege Knapsack
If Hillary Rodham Clinton is to successfully shatter the now-infamous glass ceiling for women presidential candidates, she will need to grab a sledgehammer from her “privilege knapsack.”posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:44 PM on November 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
That knapsack that holds so many of our unconsidered privileges, such as white privilege and class privilege, that color our perceptions. Hillary’s bag holds the mighty sledgehammer that she requires to smash her way into the White House in her own right, and get the votes of women who don’t carry that same knapsack, by taking a swing to break down some inherent problems in her well-intentioned family policies.
« Older No litter, no dander, less emotional indifference | Wood Identification Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by klanawa at 12:22 PM on November 18, 2015 [3 favorites]