What if 9/11 were staged?
March 15, 2002 2:58 AM Subscribe
What if 9/11 were staged? (in French -google translation) This is the thesis of French journalist Thierry Meyssan. Yes, you have played Hunt the Boeing and you have seen the five official Pentagon photos, but it seems that this (conspiracy) theory is not going to go away (at least not here in France). (more inside)
And, yes, this smacks of every zany conspiracy theory that I have ever heard. So why post this and risk the inevitable flames? Simply because, the very notion that any part of September 11 was staged or has been in any way spun to facilitate the current administration's domestic and international policies, fills me with dread.
posted by jeffvc at 3:06 AM on March 15, 2002
posted by jeffvc at 3:06 AM on March 15, 2002
Oh dear sweet Jeezus. Can we just stop this? Pretty please? I've heard that the Holocaust was falsified to facilitate the evil aims of the international Jewish conspiracy. Sounds similar, huh? And just as callous, disgusting and ludicrous.
What an annoying post to wake up to.
NEXT!
posted by evanizer at 3:14 AM on March 15, 2002
What an annoying post to wake up to.
NEXT!
posted by evanizer at 3:14 AM on March 15, 2002
Oussama bin Laden an active member of the CIA acting as a banker and recruiter of the organization, Mohammed Atta, appointed head of the commando, a member of the secret service Pakistani and George Bush a puppet with the hands of a group of conspirators eager to reinforce the American military arsenal.
Well thats a twist. Most of the time its the Jews portrayed as the "evil bankers".
Though I'm assumming the group of conspirators is the usual combination of Freemasons/Jews.
posted by Keen at 3:24 AM on March 15, 2002
Well thats a twist. Most of the time its the Jews portrayed as the "evil bankers".
Though I'm assumming the group of conspirators is the usual combination of Freemasons/Jews.
posted by Keen at 3:24 AM on March 15, 2002
Here's the book, with an English translation. Nutcase. I doubt there's an anti-semitical slant though, Keen.
The book's being hosted by "Reseau Voltaire", an organization devoted to free speech.
posted by dlewis at 3:55 AM on March 15, 2002
The book's being hosted by "Reseau Voltaire", an organization devoted to free speech.
posted by dlewis at 3:55 AM on March 15, 2002
[START]Pre-coffee Friday Rant
One of the reasons I decided not to marry a certain French-Polish woman was that she insisted Bill Clinton had murdered numerous people. Except that she was otherwise an intelligent, politically left-of-center person who--another reason, perhaps relatively more justified--though the United States was too savage a place to live. And a place where the politicians are as, or even more corrupt than they are in France. She had spent her childhood in Poland, enjoying the vacation house of her Communist general cousin (apparently in the same region of Poland where my grandfather lived before escaping, eventually to New York).
In any case, there is something very F'd Up about French, and more generally, European intellectual culture. The best I can surmise that the Cold War, preceded by two World Wars, preceded by oppressive monarchies, and combined with immigration to the New World (those who thought differently, departed), has created something very disturbing in the range of human thinking known as ethics and morality. Maybe that sounds stupid, but its the only explanation I have for the "divergence" in views between here and Europe, be the subject terrorism, Israel, or other matters.
[END]Pre-coffee Friday Rant
posted by ParisParamus at 4:41 AM on March 15, 2002
One of the reasons I decided not to marry a certain French-Polish woman was that she insisted Bill Clinton had murdered numerous people. Except that she was otherwise an intelligent, politically left-of-center person who--another reason, perhaps relatively more justified--though the United States was too savage a place to live. And a place where the politicians are as, or even more corrupt than they are in France. She had spent her childhood in Poland, enjoying the vacation house of her Communist general cousin (apparently in the same region of Poland where my grandfather lived before escaping, eventually to New York).
In any case, there is something very F'd Up about French, and more generally, European intellectual culture. The best I can surmise that the Cold War, preceded by two World Wars, preceded by oppressive monarchies, and combined with immigration to the New World (those who thought differently, departed), has created something very disturbing in the range of human thinking known as ethics and morality. Maybe that sounds stupid, but its the only explanation I have for the "divergence" in views between here and Europe, be the subject terrorism, Israel, or other matters.
[END]Pre-coffee Friday Rant
posted by ParisParamus at 4:41 AM on March 15, 2002
If the French have some kind of longing for cruel American conspiracies to obsess over, they need look no further than this place.
posted by rcade at 5:17 AM on March 15, 2002
posted by rcade at 5:17 AM on March 15, 2002
Little after alleged the journalist are free from remains of brains.
posted by groundhog at 5:41 AM on March 15, 2002
posted by groundhog at 5:41 AM on March 15, 2002
99% of me thinks (knows?) this is ridiculous, but no matter how hard I try, I can't squash the small, depressing sliver of anxiety that there are perhaps Americans in positions of power to whom the loss of thousands of other American lives is a viable business opportunity.
And I don't mean the defense industry in the broad sense of taking advantage of the situations the world presents, but people/entities that would kill their own citizens.
I mean, even if this guy's a nutter, and it didn't happen in this case, it's possible, right? -shiver-
I'm looking forward to being shown I'm irrational.
posted by jalexei at 5:59 AM on March 15, 2002
And I don't mean the defense industry in the broad sense of taking advantage of the situations the world presents, but people/entities that would kill their own citizens.
I mean, even if this guy's a nutter, and it didn't happen in this case, it's possible, right? -shiver-
I'm looking forward to being shown I'm irrational.
posted by jalexei at 5:59 AM on March 15, 2002
ParisParamus: Your rant against the "European intellectual culture", whatever that is, conveniently ignores the fact that France, along with many other European countries, has a longer history of fighting terrorism (Islamic and other) than the U.S. And that the U.S. has closed its ears to any outside opinion on the matter since 9-11. And that the U.S. is the only country to blindly support Israel (I remember the TV images of a very pissed President Chirac telling his Israeli Police bodyguards to get out of his face when touring Gaza). What you call "disturbing, fucked up ethics and morality" in Europe is called "independent, individual thinking". Your "highly original" opinion, shared by the rest of the country, is called "Mickey Mouse thinking". At the very least, European TV news cover the World on a daily basis, unlike America's.
PS: There are huge misunderstandings on both sides. I've encountered educated Europeans who thought like your French-Polish girlfriend (do I smell a backlash here?). It is highly embarrasing for the rest of the Europeans who know better - but to try counter that by bringing up slected slices of European history is just as ignorant and pathetic. French Revolution, anyone? American slavery, anyone?
posted by magullo at 6:14 AM on March 15, 2002
PS: There are huge misunderstandings on both sides. I've encountered educated Europeans who thought like your French-Polish girlfriend (do I smell a backlash here?). It is highly embarrasing for the rest of the Europeans who know better - but to try counter that by bringing up slected slices of European history is just as ignorant and pathetic. French Revolution, anyone? American slavery, anyone?
posted by magullo at 6:14 AM on March 15, 2002
I find it disturbing -- and terrifically unlikely -- that the US government could be so cynical. not just because it is hard to believe the individual people could be so callous, but also because i just cannot conceive of what their agenda could actually be.
But i find it offensive to meet resistance to the idea of even discussing the possibility.
posted by milkman at 6:26 AM on March 15, 2002
But i find it offensive to meet resistance to the idea of even discussing the possibility.
posted by milkman at 6:26 AM on March 15, 2002
but to try counter that by bringing up slected slices of European history is just as ignorant and pathetic.
Almost as ignorant and pathetic as the first two thirds of the following statement.
Your "highly original" opinion, shared by the rest of the country, is called "Mickey Mouse thinking".
Hi pot, I'm kettle. We're black.
posted by syzygy at 6:53 AM on March 15, 2002
Almost as ignorant and pathetic as the first two thirds of the following statement.
Your "highly original" opinion, shared by the rest of the country, is called "Mickey Mouse thinking".
Hi pot, I'm kettle. We're black.
posted by syzygy at 6:53 AM on March 15, 2002
If the attack on the Pentagon was staged that would mean whoever was involved was also at least peripherally involved in the WTC attacks as well, right? There's really no other way to get the timing right.
So, then, why stage an attack on the Pentagon at all? Wouldn't any agenda be served just fine by blowing up just the WTC?
posted by Cyrano at 7:04 AM on March 15, 2002
So, then, why stage an attack on the Pentagon at all? Wouldn't any agenda be served just fine by blowing up just the WTC?
posted by Cyrano at 7:04 AM on March 15, 2002
Well, this article (from Znet) offers the best counterarguments against these sorts of conspiracy theories I've seen so far, mainly because the author has the patience to state the obvious. Note please that this comes from the American "far" left. From the same publication an (older) general critique of conspiracy theories.
posted by talos at 7:08 AM on March 15, 2002
posted by talos at 7:08 AM on March 15, 2002
syzygy Taken out of context, sure. I still stand by my belief that American public opinion is deformed by a tremendous uniformity in mainstream media choices. While America has less legal restrictions to freedom of speech, it is in fact the Europeans who show a wider range of opinions (many of them totally wacky, but there is nothing wrong with that - in fact, if anything, it is somewhat refreshing). After 9-11, multiply the above times a hundred.
posted by magullo at 7:14 AM on March 15, 2002
posted by magullo at 7:14 AM on March 15, 2002
i mentioned this a few days after it happened. part of me was joking, but part of me wasn't.
the mind reels at the idea that it might be staged, but really, i wouldn't put it past them. of course, saying this makes me a 'terrorist', so expect to see me publically shot tomorrow in the town square.
posted by jcterminal at 7:14 AM on March 15, 2002
the mind reels at the idea that it might be staged, but really, i wouldn't put it past them. of course, saying this makes me a 'terrorist', so expect to see me publically shot tomorrow in the town square.
posted by jcterminal at 7:14 AM on March 15, 2002
Talos From the article: but the notion that the U.S. government either detected the attacks but allowed them to occur, or, worse, conspired to kill thousands of Americans to launch a war-for-oil in Afghanistan is absurd
How absurd? Like the U.S. bombing the Chinese embassy in Belgrade because they were using an outdated map? Or like the INS in a heightened state of alert renewing the visas of two of the 9-11 terrorist 6 months after they died a very public death?
Is it really so wacky to think that there was limited advanced knowledge that fell through the cracks? I think not.
posted by magullo at 7:24 AM on March 15, 2002
How absurd? Like the U.S. bombing the Chinese embassy in Belgrade because they were using an outdated map? Or like the INS in a heightened state of alert renewing the visas of two of the 9-11 terrorist 6 months after they died a very public death?
Is it really so wacky to think that there was limited advanced knowledge that fell through the cracks? I think not.
posted by magullo at 7:24 AM on March 15, 2002
talos That is a fantastic link. Thanks.
magullo I don't think that the article is implying that there weren't advance warnings that "fell through the cracks." Rather, I think the article was arguing that it is unlikely that there were intelligence officials who knowingly allowed the attacks to happen.
posted by jeffvc at 7:32 AM on March 15, 2002
magullo I don't think that the article is implying that there weren't advance warnings that "fell through the cracks." Rather, I think the article was arguing that it is unlikely that there were intelligence officials who knowingly allowed the attacks to happen.
posted by jeffvc at 7:32 AM on March 15, 2002
Or like the INS in a heightened state of alert renewing the visas of two of the 9-11 terrorist 6 months after they died a very public death?
magullo: might not the above show incompetence beyond the ability to stage a cospiracy this vast? Anyway the author goes on to explain the reasons why he thinks this hypothesis is absurd- and his arguments seem sound.
The Chinese embassy bombing, if one can call it a conspiracy under any meaningful use of the term, is of quite a different order of magnitude than the pre-planned murder of 3000+ US citizens by their own government.
posted by talos at 7:32 AM on March 15, 2002
magullo: might not the above show incompetence beyond the ability to stage a cospiracy this vast? Anyway the author goes on to explain the reasons why he thinks this hypothesis is absurd- and his arguments seem sound.
The Chinese embassy bombing, if one can call it a conspiracy under any meaningful use of the term, is of quite a different order of magnitude than the pre-planned murder of 3000+ US citizens by their own government.
posted by talos at 7:32 AM on March 15, 2002
gee dubya is the antichrist.
Edit : gee dubya be the antichrist. word!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:32 AM on March 15, 2002
Edit : gee dubya be the antichrist. word!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:32 AM on March 15, 2002
Talos I'm not saying there was a conspiracy, and much less a pre-staged one. What I'm saying is that someone, somewhere, possibly knew and that fuck-up was either not discovered or covered.
In the meantime, the U.S. government lied to get into the Vietnam war (the Gulf of Tonkin incident excuse was a totla fabrication) and, if you ask me, to initiate the Gulf War ("let's save Kuwait's democracy"). Thus the burden of proving it is no lying this time falls on them, not the other way around.
posted by magullo at 7:54 AM on March 15, 2002
In the meantime, the U.S. government lied to get into the Vietnam war (the Gulf of Tonkin incident excuse was a totla fabrication) and, if you ask me, to initiate the Gulf War ("let's save Kuwait's democracy"). Thus the burden of proving it is no lying this time falls on them, not the other way around.
posted by magullo at 7:54 AM on March 15, 2002
Thus the burden of proving it is not lying this time falls on them, not the other way around.
Let me get this straight: you won't be satisfied until the US proves that it's not lying? You're in for some sleepless nights. Proving a negative is always a real blast. Say, when did you stop beating your wife?
posted by Skot at 8:05 AM on March 15, 2002
Let me get this straight: you won't be satisfied until the US proves that it's not lying? You're in for some sleepless nights. Proving a negative is always a real blast. Say, when did you stop beating your wife?
posted by Skot at 8:05 AM on March 15, 2002
This sort of insane conspiracy theory is going to cast a dark shadow over all the other conspiracy theory businesses out there. The JFK-conspiracy-business and the UFO-conspiracy-business people cannot be happy with what it is doing to their industry. Some of these guys have been making a good living off their writings, lectures and television appearances for years and don't want to see their market get besmirched like that.
Obviously this 9-11-conspiracy writer didn't check the union rules about "credibility" before releasing his work. He's going to get roundly criticized at the next meeting.
posted by grum@work at 8:06 AM on March 15, 2002
Obviously this 9-11-conspiracy writer didn't check the union rules about "credibility" before releasing his work. He's going to get roundly criticized at the next meeting.
posted by grum@work at 8:06 AM on March 15, 2002
Magullo: You're simplifying in saying the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a "total fabrication." As I understand it, the Pentagon pressured LBJ to act decisively on emergency reports that the U.S. had been fired on in the Gulf of Tonkin. LBJ, paranoid about being called soft by Republican in the upcoming election, made a late-night decision to treat the "incident" -- before the reports could be verified -- as the opening volley in a huge escalation of the war. The "attack" turned out to have never happened but, by this time, the U.S. had reacted with outrage, beligerence, etc. It was too late, and the leads that might easily have shown the whole thing to be false were left unfollowed. It was just easier not to look at it too closely, so no one did.
On the whole, a pretty sleazy affair. But did a cabal of military officers and government officials gather around a table and cook up the whole story in advance? No. As usual, the truth is much messier than the movies.
posted by argybarg at 8:13 AM on March 15, 2002
On the whole, a pretty sleazy affair. But did a cabal of military officers and government officials gather around a table and cook up the whole story in advance? No. As usual, the truth is much messier than the movies.
posted by argybarg at 8:13 AM on March 15, 2002
Of course, saying this makes me a 'terrorist', so expect to see me publically shot tomorrow in the town square.
Self-pity is the left's least attractive attribute.
posted by argybarg at 8:15 AM on March 15, 2002
Self-pity is the left's least attractive attribute.
posted by argybarg at 8:15 AM on March 15, 2002
magullo - Which context makes your simplistic generalization of 300,000,000 people's opinions differ from the generalization of which you accuse ParisParamus?
And, putting the question of simplistic generalizations aside, why is it any less valid for an American to attempt to divine a cause for a common European psyche than it is for you to attempt to divine a cause for a common American psyche?
And further, perhaps you haven't noticed that the majority of posters to this site are, indeed, Americans. As I see it, the range of opinions here is quite wide.
I'm not sitting in the US, and I haven't seen US news since I was home for the Christmas holidays. After living in Europe for almost 2 years and engaging many Europeans in discussion on a wide range of topics, (I have not a single American friend here in Vienna, though I do have many European friends here, and elsewhere across Europe) and I find your characterization simplistic and bordering on absurd. The range of opinions is just as wide on both sides of the Atlantic, the main difference being that the range is skewed toward the left on the Eastern side (or to the right on the Western side, if you will).
Your generalization is every bit as simplistic and ungrounded as that of which you accuse Paris...
posted by syzygy at 8:16 AM on March 15, 2002
And, putting the question of simplistic generalizations aside, why is it any less valid for an American to attempt to divine a cause for a common European psyche than it is for you to attempt to divine a cause for a common American psyche?
And further, perhaps you haven't noticed that the majority of posters to this site are, indeed, Americans. As I see it, the range of opinions here is quite wide.
I'm not sitting in the US, and I haven't seen US news since I was home for the Christmas holidays. After living in Europe for almost 2 years and engaging many Europeans in discussion on a wide range of topics, (I have not a single American friend here in Vienna, though I do have many European friends here, and elsewhere across Europe) and I find your characterization simplistic and bordering on absurd. The range of opinions is just as wide on both sides of the Atlantic, the main difference being that the range is skewed toward the left on the Eastern side (or to the right on the Western side, if you will).
Your generalization is every bit as simplistic and ungrounded as that of which you accuse Paris...
posted by syzygy at 8:16 AM on March 15, 2002
On the subject of conspiracy theories (and blogcomment microfiction), consider:
On the morning of Sept 11 there were a number of senators who claimed to have seen a jetliner do a low pass over the Mall an hour before the Pentagon hit. What if it had actually hit the White House or Senate? What if a significant portion of the leadership and/or a cornerstone of sentimental power in the country had been completely obliterated?
Now say that there's an area-51 goodie that would let them completely vaporize a plane, do a 30-second undo, or transport it to another dimension, wham, zam, blammo. So they save the senators, the veep, and/or vital Americana (and they either didn't have one of the 'sooperweapons' on Manhattan or they had no time to use it).
Now they don't want anyone to know that they have this weapon, so rather than raise bermuda-triangle-type questions about where the plane disappeared to, they stage a crash. But where? Anyplace would leave debris, be it a water crash, a midair explosion, anything, so they figure the crash that would leave the least identifiable debris would be smashing into a bomb-hardned concrete monolith at 500mph. Since the Pentagon is the only thing that fits the description in the area they pick the least populated side (recently renovated and not yet moved into), set up some C4 explosions, and say 'wow! That's where the plane went!'
Can I be a French journalist now?
posted by kfury at 8:17 AM on March 15, 2002
On the morning of Sept 11 there were a number of senators who claimed to have seen a jetliner do a low pass over the Mall an hour before the Pentagon hit. What if it had actually hit the White House or Senate? What if a significant portion of the leadership and/or a cornerstone of sentimental power in the country had been completely obliterated?
Now say that there's an area-51 goodie that would let them completely vaporize a plane, do a 30-second undo, or transport it to another dimension, wham, zam, blammo. So they save the senators, the veep, and/or vital Americana (and they either didn't have one of the 'sooperweapons' on Manhattan or they had no time to use it).
Now they don't want anyone to know that they have this weapon, so rather than raise bermuda-triangle-type questions about where the plane disappeared to, they stage a crash. But where? Anyplace would leave debris, be it a water crash, a midair explosion, anything, so they figure the crash that would leave the least identifiable debris would be smashing into a bomb-hardned concrete monolith at 500mph. Since the Pentagon is the only thing that fits the description in the area they pick the least populated side (recently renovated and not yet moved into), set up some C4 explosions, and say 'wow! That's where the plane went!'
Can I be a French journalist now?
posted by kfury at 8:17 AM on March 15, 2002
Skot - I am aware of the dififculties. A good start would be to show more transparency. As it happens, it is the opposite what we are seeing. Of course, we're at war. Where did I hear that before?
argybarg If the "attack" turned out to have never happened, then the "attack" is a fabrication, a lie, a fiction or whatever you want to call it. Lots of people died for a lie. It is more than a sleazy episode.
syzygy If you totally avoid my main point about American media and its impact on public opinion, at least please admit that you don't see an Austrian or European flag on every car you see in Vienna.
posted by magullo at 8:41 AM on March 15, 2002
argybarg If the "attack" turned out to have never happened, then the "attack" is a fabrication, a lie, a fiction or whatever you want to call it. Lots of people died for a lie. It is more than a sleazy episode.
syzygy If you totally avoid my main point about American media and its impact on public opinion, at least please admit that you don't see an Austrian or European flag on every car you see in Vienna.
posted by magullo at 8:41 AM on March 15, 2002
I've always tended to favor the incompetence rebuttal in refuting conspiracy theories, so it's good to see Znet using such a sensible rejoinder (rather than the usual jargon and anti-imperialist straightjacket). It's pretty crazy to think that they'd have to hijack four airplanes and destroy (potentially) four buildings to get the required effect; wouldn't one have done just fine? Four is four times the number of conspirators, after all. And remember, it's a suicide mission: somebody killing themselves in the name of jihad is so outside of our normal experience as to be baffling, but someone doing it in the name of US imperialism just doesn't make any sense at all. Has the US ever in the past required such an elaborate excuse for exercising our self-interest? It just doesn't pass the simplicity test. I can think of half-a-dozen ways of achieving the same effect without so many people involved -- say, a car bomb that destroys the decoy presidential limousine.
To me, the best argument against something like this is the past history of the US covert operations community -- say, the Iranalamadingdong affair, a cake baked in the shape of a key ....
At least the Clinton conspiracists had a number of prominent suicides to work off of. Here, nobody's had pangs of guilt? Nobody's cut bait and gone to Bob Woodward? Nobody's had to be "eliminated" with an obviously phony car crash? Nobody's committed suicide with "obvious" signs their body was moved?
posted by dhartung at 8:58 AM on March 15, 2002
To me, the best argument against something like this is the past history of the US covert operations community -- say, the Iranalamadingdong affair, a cake baked in the shape of a key ....
At least the Clinton conspiracists had a number of prominent suicides to work off of. Here, nobody's had pangs of guilt? Nobody's cut bait and gone to Bob Woodward? Nobody's had to be "eliminated" with an obviously phony car crash? Nobody's committed suicide with "obvious" signs their body was moved?
posted by dhartung at 8:58 AM on March 15, 2002
dhartung Errr - once again, I'm not a conspirationist, but you are forgetting an ex-super senior anti terrorist FBI agent - one who was obsessed with an attack just like 9-11, died in the towers. He was chief of security at WTC after quiting his FBI job. He had had several disagreements with other top officials over not being able to properly investigate Saudi connections to terrorism. Poor fellow, what a horrible horrible fate.
posted by magullo at 9:51 AM on March 15, 2002
posted by magullo at 9:51 AM on March 15, 2002
The US doesn't blindly support Israel. What it does, which most of Europe doesn't is side with, and view Israel as having more credibility and good will than an assortment of nations whose internal politics, lack of democracy, police states, lack of an educated public, and multiple pre- and post-1967 wars with Israel give them no credibility in, or right to criticize Israel.
French Iraqi nuclear reactors, anyone?
posted by ParisParamus at 10:03 AM on March 15, 2002
French Iraqi nuclear reactors, anyone?
posted by ParisParamus at 10:03 AM on March 15, 2002
ParisParamus Prehaps if all those little nations each received 10% of the U.S. budget, they would be as happy as Israel is. The U.S. doesn't blindly support Israel? Gimme a freaking break. Let me remind you that Israel has 2 U.N. resolutions against its occupation of Palestinian land. The U.S., who fought a war against Iraq officially based on a single U.N. resolution, conveniently ignores those other two. As in "it turns a blind eye towards Israel".
As for French Iraqi reactors, let me remind you that in the Iran-Iraq war, inmediately previous to the Persian Gulf War, Iraq was the friend of the West, including the U.S. Let me also remind you that the year before the invasion of Kuwait and subsequent Gulf War, Iraq doubled its purchases of military and war-related equipment. The West, including the U.S., was only too happy to comply. I'm going to stop now before I produce a list of former U.S. allies turned bad guys, as your comment doesn't even merit taking that path.
posted by magullo at 10:14 AM on March 15, 2002
As for French Iraqi reactors, let me remind you that in the Iran-Iraq war, inmediately previous to the Persian Gulf War, Iraq was the friend of the West, including the U.S. Let me also remind you that the year before the invasion of Kuwait and subsequent Gulf War, Iraq doubled its purchases of military and war-related equipment. The West, including the U.S., was only too happy to comply. I'm going to stop now before I produce a list of former U.S. allies turned bad guys, as your comment doesn't even merit taking that path.
posted by magullo at 10:14 AM on March 15, 2002
I wish Americans knew more about Europe so they could just shrug this kind of stuff of, same as we Europeans do. Americans are too kind and self-conscious so it's easy to abuse their admirable willingness to consider the arguments of people who, for some strange reason, hate America.
Funny how these critical Europeans always come from the previous cultural imperialisms. I'd just like to register my considered opinion that, of all the forms imperialism has taken in this world, the least offensive by far is the American model, which is mainly cultural(and produces more great stuff than bad)and economic(though much less than previous empires)
Stop being such patsies! Though I guess it's your being such patsies which makes you so endearing and acceptable to us former empires. You don't really want or need an empire. That's your great strength. You're an empire all alone. And a great one, all things considered!
posted by MiguelCardoso at 10:15 AM on March 15, 2002
Funny how these critical Europeans always come from the previous cultural imperialisms. I'd just like to register my considered opinion that, of all the forms imperialism has taken in this world, the least offensive by far is the American model, which is mainly cultural(and produces more great stuff than bad)and economic(though much less than previous empires)
Stop being such patsies! Though I guess it's your being such patsies which makes you so endearing and acceptable to us former empires. You don't really want or need an empire. That's your great strength. You're an empire all alone. And a great one, all things considered!
posted by MiguelCardoso at 10:15 AM on March 15, 2002
dhart- your logic is flawed.....i think the lincoln assassination was staged lol."Nobody's had to be "eliminated" with an obviously phony car crash? Nobody's committed suicide with "obvious" signs their body was moved?" ....and this means....what, 'they' did not have to kill anyone to keep it secret...pssst...dan, THEY (highjacking scum) ARE ALL DEAD. noone to talk.
"Has the US ever in the past required such an elaborate excuse for exercising our self-interest" what does 'elaborate' define in your context. what about THE MAINE....Camran bay (sic sp) ya see dan...THEY did do this, conspired, planned, right under our noses. THEY is Al-qaeda."I can think of half-a-dozen ways of achieving the same effect without so many people involved -- say, a car bomb that destroys the decoy presidential limousine." then your scary man. some say (Don Dellio really) that kennedy was supposed to just get a scare in dallas (wound a SS agent) then pin it on oswald-back to cuba....two birds one stone....invade cuba, scare kennedy into a malable tool. in the world of shit stormers 'Half measures avail one nothing' I personally think that this french story is full of crap. They (french) forget one thing, IF, i mean, IF some roughe element from intel planned this, executed it, then it could never, ever even get a hint of leaking. for if it were true, the people would rise up and slay those responsable. That would spell anarchy in this country...remember your sun-tzu. the only way to take a powerful nation down is to weaken it interally.
posted by clavdivs at 10:20 AM on March 15, 2002
"Has the US ever in the past required such an elaborate excuse for exercising our self-interest" what does 'elaborate' define in your context. what about THE MAINE....Camran bay (sic sp) ya see dan...THEY did do this, conspired, planned, right under our noses. THEY is Al-qaeda."I can think of half-a-dozen ways of achieving the same effect without so many people involved -- say, a car bomb that destroys the decoy presidential limousine." then your scary man. some say (Don Dellio really) that kennedy was supposed to just get a scare in dallas (wound a SS agent) then pin it on oswald-back to cuba....two birds one stone....invade cuba, scare kennedy into a malable tool. in the world of shit stormers 'Half measures avail one nothing' I personally think that this french story is full of crap. They (french) forget one thing, IF, i mean, IF some roughe element from intel planned this, executed it, then it could never, ever even get a hint of leaking. for if it were true, the people would rise up and slay those responsable. That would spell anarchy in this country...remember your sun-tzu. the only way to take a powerful nation down is to weaken it interally.
posted by clavdivs at 10:20 AM on March 15, 2002
gulf of tonkin...camran bay was the "Brown and Root" billion dollar johnson deal...
posted by clavdivs at 10:27 AM on March 15, 2002
posted by clavdivs at 10:27 AM on March 15, 2002
For the record, I don't hate America, tocayo. I hate populism and blind patriotism. I'm a thousand times more critical of my country, Spain. Talk about hicks.
But, man, you can't say that Americans are kind and self-conscious. In fact, I'd like to meet a single self-conscious American, as they all tend to be endearingly care-free in that department. I know plenty of kind ones (most of them). But America as a country is only kind to the people with money, who do you think you are kidding here?
posted by magullo at 10:36 AM on March 15, 2002
But, man, you can't say that Americans are kind and self-conscious. In fact, I'd like to meet a single self-conscious American, as they all tend to be endearingly care-free in that department. I know plenty of kind ones (most of them). But America as a country is only kind to the people with money, who do you think you are kidding here?
posted by magullo at 10:36 AM on March 15, 2002
goneill jeffvc is most decidedly not a parisian. He just happens to live just outside of Paris....and not for much longer.
posted by jeffvc at 10:39 AM on March 15, 2002
posted by jeffvc at 10:39 AM on March 15, 2002
What can I say? Yet another reason to dislike the French (although I really didn't need another reason). This is why Hercule Poirot was always at pains to point out that he was Belgian, not (ugh!) French.
posted by mrmanley at 11:02 AM on March 15, 2002
posted by mrmanley at 11:02 AM on March 15, 2002
"Self-pity is the left's least attractive attribute."
did you just call me a member of the left?
screw you and your personal attack.
posted by jcterminal at 11:09 AM on March 15, 2002
did you just call me a member of the left?
screw you and your personal attack.
posted by jcterminal at 11:09 AM on March 15, 2002
Hm.... self-pity, AND defensive.
Must be a leftist.....
As for me, I only pity those I have just trod under my feet, and I'm proud of it. Can I be an evil right-winger now?
posted by dwivian at 11:37 AM on March 15, 2002
Must be a leftist.....
As for me, I only pity those I have just trod under my feet, and I'm proud of it. Can I be an evil right-winger now?
posted by dwivian at 11:37 AM on March 15, 2002
jeffvc is the author of me talk pretty one day. where is jeffvc going next enquiring minds want to know.
posted by goneill at 11:42 AM on March 15, 2002
posted by goneill at 11:42 AM on March 15, 2002
Simply because, the very notion that any part of September 11 was staged or has been in any way spun to facilitate the current administration's domestic and international policies, fills me with dread.
Translation: "I hate George W. Bush." Thanks, but that's not a particularly unique thought around here. What evanizer said: Next!
posted by aaron at 12:53 PM on March 15, 2002
Translation: "I hate George W. Bush." Thanks, but that's not a particularly unique thought around here. What evanizer said: Next!
posted by aaron at 12:53 PM on March 15, 2002
Has anybody asked Jerry Lewis what he thinks of this?
(Sorry, somebody had to say it.)
As mentioned above, it's impossible to believe that people who can't keep an extra-marital affair private could keep something this wide-ranging under their hats.
posted by skyscraper at 1:02 PM on March 15, 2002
(Sorry, somebody had to say it.)
As mentioned above, it's impossible to believe that people who can't keep an extra-marital affair private could keep something this wide-ranging under their hats.
posted by skyscraper at 1:02 PM on March 15, 2002
One of the reasons I decided not to marry a certain French-Polish woman was that she insisted Bill Clinton had murdered numerous people.
Oh, that's just silly. Bill didn't murder them himself...
:::duckflee!:::
posted by aaron at 1:07 PM on March 15, 2002
Oh, that's just silly. Bill didn't murder them himself...
:::duckflee!:::
posted by aaron at 1:07 PM on March 15, 2002
The U.S. doesn't blindly support Israel? Gimme a freaking break.
Guess what? I will not give you any break.
The bottom line is that, while you insist on reading some extreme favoritism into US-Israeli relations, there is no objective support for your position. Israel is the only modern, democratic nation in the Mideast; and it is surrounded by places antithetical on almost every level to the United States. This is a sufficient objective basis on which to "explain" how the United States acts. In other words, to prove your point, the Arab and/or Muslim nations of the Mideast would have to come up with a place which (1) was at least largely democratic; (2) is not a police or military state; (3) which did not go about sponsoring terrorism, which (4)was not equally favored by the United States. (and did not have good relations with Israel). But reality disproves your contention: Of the Arab/Muslim nations which come closest to meeting (1)-(3) Turkey comes closest, and Turkey has good relations with both the US and--SURPRISE!--Israel. Egypt, while far behind, is second, and--SUPRISE!--has, at least civilized relations with Israel and the US. Then there's Jordan, which isn't democratic, but has pretty good relations with Israel.
So basically, your feelings have no basis in objective fact. Which suggests that, for some reason, you are biased.
Also, WTF is "10% of a budget? Israel gets foreign aid from the US. It also invests most of the money back in the US. Israel also enriches the US economy. I don't think Israel needs US aid anymore (I believe it's being phased out); it certainly wouldn't if it weren't surrounded by so many hostile, backward nations.
posted by ParisParamus at 1:19 PM on March 15, 2002
Guess what? I will not give you any break.
The bottom line is that, while you insist on reading some extreme favoritism into US-Israeli relations, there is no objective support for your position. Israel is the only modern, democratic nation in the Mideast; and it is surrounded by places antithetical on almost every level to the United States. This is a sufficient objective basis on which to "explain" how the United States acts. In other words, to prove your point, the Arab and/or Muslim nations of the Mideast would have to come up with a place which (1) was at least largely democratic; (2) is not a police or military state; (3) which did not go about sponsoring terrorism, which (4)was not equally favored by the United States. (and did not have good relations with Israel). But reality disproves your contention: Of the Arab/Muslim nations which come closest to meeting (1)-(3) Turkey comes closest, and Turkey has good relations with both the US and--SURPRISE!--Israel. Egypt, while far behind, is second, and--SUPRISE!--has, at least civilized relations with Israel and the US. Then there's Jordan, which isn't democratic, but has pretty good relations with Israel.
So basically, your feelings have no basis in objective fact. Which suggests that, for some reason, you are biased.
Also, WTF is "10% of a budget? Israel gets foreign aid from the US. It also invests most of the money back in the US. Israel also enriches the US economy. I don't think Israel needs US aid anymore (I believe it's being phased out); it certainly wouldn't if it weren't surrounded by so many hostile, backward nations.
posted by ParisParamus at 1:19 PM on March 15, 2002
ParisParamus
Israel is slated to take an annual $120 million cut in economic aid in FY 2000 and every year thereafter for nine years until there is no more foreign economic aid for Israel.
Starting at the same time, however, U.S. military aid to Israel is slated to increase every year by $60 million. So in 10 years U.S. military aid to Israel will increase to a total of $2.4 billion annually, which does not count extras from the Pentagon’s budget.
Therefore the scheduled reduction of total annual foreign aid to Israel is only $60 million annually, a decrease of 2 percent per year. In 10 years the total reduction in Israel’s foreign aid will be only 20 percent.
Israel, with a population smaller than Hong Kong’s, is still the largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid, by far. It receives more than a third of U.S. bilateral foreign aid. And when U.S. foreign aid to Israel, and to Egypt for keeping the peace with Israel, are combined, they are more than half of total bilateral U.S. foreign aid world-wide.
Other U.S. foreign aid recipients all are developing nations which either make their military bases available to the U.S., are key members of international alliances in which the U.S. participates, or have recently suffered some crippling blow of nature such as earthquakes, floods or droughts.
Israel does not fit those criteria. Its 1997 per capita gross national product is $16,180. That puts it on a par with Ireland and well above Spain. Other than Israel, for many years no country with a comparable per capita GNP has received American foreign aid.
In fact, from 1949 through 1997, the total of U.S. aid to all of the countries of sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America and the Caribbean combined was $64,127,500,000—considerably less than the $71,077,600,000 Israel received in the same 1949 through 1997 time period. According to the Population Reference Bureau of Washington, DC, in mid-1999 the sub-Saharan and Latin American and Caribbean countries have a combined population of 1.142 billion people, while Israel’s mid-1999 population is 6.1 million people.
Israel receives its annual foreign aid appropriation during the first month of each fiscal year, instead of in quarterly installments as do other foreign aid recipients. That has enabled Israel to save another $1.947 billion in interest from advance payments.
Direct U.S. taxpayer aid to Israel now amounts to $75,260 for every Israeli family of five.
etc
posted by magullo at 2:00 PM on March 15, 2002
Israel is slated to take an annual $120 million cut in economic aid in FY 2000 and every year thereafter for nine years until there is no more foreign economic aid for Israel.
Starting at the same time, however, U.S. military aid to Israel is slated to increase every year by $60 million. So in 10 years U.S. military aid to Israel will increase to a total of $2.4 billion annually, which does not count extras from the Pentagon’s budget.
Therefore the scheduled reduction of total annual foreign aid to Israel is only $60 million annually, a decrease of 2 percent per year. In 10 years the total reduction in Israel’s foreign aid will be only 20 percent.
Israel, with a population smaller than Hong Kong’s, is still the largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid, by far. It receives more than a third of U.S. bilateral foreign aid. And when U.S. foreign aid to Israel, and to Egypt for keeping the peace with Israel, are combined, they are more than half of total bilateral U.S. foreign aid world-wide.
Other U.S. foreign aid recipients all are developing nations which either make their military bases available to the U.S., are key members of international alliances in which the U.S. participates, or have recently suffered some crippling blow of nature such as earthquakes, floods or droughts.
Israel does not fit those criteria. Its 1997 per capita gross national product is $16,180. That puts it on a par with Ireland and well above Spain. Other than Israel, for many years no country with a comparable per capita GNP has received American foreign aid.
In fact, from 1949 through 1997, the total of U.S. aid to all of the countries of sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America and the Caribbean combined was $64,127,500,000—considerably less than the $71,077,600,000 Israel received in the same 1949 through 1997 time period. According to the Population Reference Bureau of Washington, DC, in mid-1999 the sub-Saharan and Latin American and Caribbean countries have a combined population of 1.142 billion people, while Israel’s mid-1999 population is 6.1 million people.
Israel receives its annual foreign aid appropriation during the first month of each fiscal year, instead of in quarterly installments as do other foreign aid recipients. That has enabled Israel to save another $1.947 billion in interest from advance payments.
Direct U.S. taxpayer aid to Israel now amounts to $75,260 for every Israeli family of five.
etc
posted by magullo at 2:00 PM on March 15, 2002
ParisParamus
Israel is slated to take an annual $120 million cut in economic aid in FY 2000 and every year thereafter for nine years until there is no more foreign economic aid for Israel.
Starting at the same time, however, U.S. military aid to Israel is slated to increase every year by $60 million. So in 10 years U.S. military aid to Israel will increase to a total of $2.4 billion annually, which does not count extras from the Pentagon’s budget.
Therefore the scheduled reduction of total annual foreign aid to Israel is only $60 million annually, a decrease of 2 percent per year. In 10 years the total reduction in Israel’s foreign aid will be only 20 percent.
Israel, with a population smaller than Hong Kong’s, is still the largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid, by far. It receives more than a third of U.S. bilateral foreign aid. And when U.S. foreign aid to Israel, and to Egypt for keeping the peace with Israel, are combined, they are more than half of total bilateral U.S. foreign aid world-wide.
Other U.S. foreign aid recipients all are developing nations which either make their military bases available to the U.S., are key members of international alliances in which the U.S. participates, or have recently suffered some crippling blow of nature such as earthquakes, floods or droughts.
Israel does not fit those criteria. Its 1997 per capita gross national product is $16,180. That puts it on a par with Ireland and well above Spain. Other than Israel, for many years no country with a comparable per capita GNP has received American foreign aid.
In fact, from 1949 through 1997, the total of U.S. aid to all of the countries of sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America and the Caribbean combined was $64,127,500,000—considerably less than the $71,077,600,000 Israel received in the same 1949 through 1997 time period. According to the Population Reference Bureau of Washington, DC, in mid-1999 the sub-Saharan and Latin American and Caribbean countries have a combined population of 1.142 billion people, while Israel’s mid-1999 population is 6.1 million people.
Israel receives its annual foreign aid appropriation during the first month of each fiscal year, instead of in quarterly installments as do other foreign aid recipients. That has enabled Israel to save another $1.947 billion in interest from advance payments.
Direct U.S. taxpayer aid to Israel now amounts to $75,260 for every Israeli family of five.
etc
posted by magullo at 2:00 PM on March 15, 2002
Israel is slated to take an annual $120 million cut in economic aid in FY 2000 and every year thereafter for nine years until there is no more foreign economic aid for Israel.
Starting at the same time, however, U.S. military aid to Israel is slated to increase every year by $60 million. So in 10 years U.S. military aid to Israel will increase to a total of $2.4 billion annually, which does not count extras from the Pentagon’s budget.
Therefore the scheduled reduction of total annual foreign aid to Israel is only $60 million annually, a decrease of 2 percent per year. In 10 years the total reduction in Israel’s foreign aid will be only 20 percent.
Israel, with a population smaller than Hong Kong’s, is still the largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid, by far. It receives more than a third of U.S. bilateral foreign aid. And when U.S. foreign aid to Israel, and to Egypt for keeping the peace with Israel, are combined, they are more than half of total bilateral U.S. foreign aid world-wide.
Other U.S. foreign aid recipients all are developing nations which either make their military bases available to the U.S., are key members of international alliances in which the U.S. participates, or have recently suffered some crippling blow of nature such as earthquakes, floods or droughts.
Israel does not fit those criteria. Its 1997 per capita gross national product is $16,180. That puts it on a par with Ireland and well above Spain. Other than Israel, for many years no country with a comparable per capita GNP has received American foreign aid.
In fact, from 1949 through 1997, the total of U.S. aid to all of the countries of sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America and the Caribbean combined was $64,127,500,000—considerably less than the $71,077,600,000 Israel received in the same 1949 through 1997 time period. According to the Population Reference Bureau of Washington, DC, in mid-1999 the sub-Saharan and Latin American and Caribbean countries have a combined population of 1.142 billion people, while Israel’s mid-1999 population is 6.1 million people.
Israel receives its annual foreign aid appropriation during the first month of each fiscal year, instead of in quarterly installments as do other foreign aid recipients. That has enabled Israel to save another $1.947 billion in interest from advance payments.
Direct U.S. taxpayer aid to Israel now amounts to $75,260 for every Israeli family of five.
etc
posted by magullo at 2:00 PM on March 15, 2002
Intellectually lazy. I am surprised the guy is called a journalist. If there is a conspiracy this well placed, organized and well, brazen, then give up now.
posted by O Boingo at 2:03 PM on March 15, 2002
posted by O Boingo at 2:03 PM on March 15, 2002
$75,260 for every Israeli family of five.
Assuming your figures are correct, and in current dollars., that's $1500/year//per-capita. In any case, I don't see how that proves anything. I also suspect Israeli-American military cooperation saves the US money (assuming you don't hate the US military's overall mission and activities). Moreover, I question your figures regarding the rest of the world. As well as the utility of sinking more funds into societies which are unable to absorb them.
posted by ParisParamus at 2:15 PM on March 15, 2002
Assuming your figures are correct, and in current dollars., that's $1500/year//per-capita. In any case, I don't see how that proves anything. I also suspect Israeli-American military cooperation saves the US money (assuming you don't hate the US military's overall mission and activities). Moreover, I question your figures regarding the rest of the world. As well as the utility of sinking more funds into societies which are unable to absorb them.
posted by ParisParamus at 2:15 PM on March 15, 2002
OK...super duper...we can't see a plane, so therefore no plane actually crashed into the Pentagon. Fourth grade logic, but I'll go with it for now.
My first question...if American Airlines Flight 77 (with 64 people on board mind you) didn't crash into the Pentagon, then WHERE IS IT?
posted by mathis23 at 2:40 PM on March 15, 2002
My first question...if American Airlines Flight 77 (with 64 people on board mind you) didn't crash into the Pentagon, then WHERE IS IT?
posted by mathis23 at 2:40 PM on March 15, 2002
"I still stand by my belief that American public opinion is deformed by a tremendous uniformity in mainstream media choices."
How many ways do you want an actual event reported?
In terms of timeliness, newswatchers/readers usually have more information than people at the scene.
If public opinion is (de)formed by the media, it's because the media provides information (duh). Mainstream media is just that, mainstream. But I can tell you from experience that there are varieties of perspectives to please anyone. Look around instead of standing stuck by your "belief".
posted by semmi at 3:28 PM on March 15, 2002
How many ways do you want an actual event reported?
In terms of timeliness, newswatchers/readers usually have more information than people at the scene.
If public opinion is (de)formed by the media, it's because the media provides information (duh). Mainstream media is just that, mainstream. But I can tell you from experience that there are varieties of perspectives to please anyone. Look around instead of standing stuck by your "belief".
posted by semmi at 3:28 PM on March 15, 2002
The French Revolution wiped out the upper class, leaving behind, sacre bleu, the lower class. And brother, does it show.
posted by mikegre at 4:33 PM on March 15, 2002
posted by mikegre at 4:33 PM on March 15, 2002
One "France surrenders!" is missing before MeFi (well, this thread at least) becomes the official Fark mirror =/
posted by XiBe at 5:24 PM on March 15, 2002
posted by XiBe at 5:24 PM on March 15, 2002
I remember an eyewitness saying that the tip of one of the plane's wings touched the ground just a short distance from the Pentagon, and it ended up sort of pinwheeling sideways into the building. That's why the damage to the building doesn't fit the shape he expects.
posted by Potsy at 12:31 AM on March 17, 2002 [1 favorite]
posted by Potsy at 12:31 AM on March 17, 2002 [1 favorite]
Ina recent e-mail:
French Intellectuals to be Deployed in Afghanistan To Convince Taleban of
Non-Existence of God
posted by ParisParamus at 7:42 AM on March 17, 2002
French Intellectuals to be Deployed in Afghanistan To Convince Taleban of
Non-Existence of God
posted by ParisParamus at 7:42 AM on March 17, 2002
Anyone ever considered that the article was designed to create largely futile debates such as these?
posted by skinsuit at 4:12 PM on March 17, 2002
posted by skinsuit at 4:12 PM on March 17, 2002
Anyone ever considered that the article was designed to create largely futile debates such as these?
Of course someone considered that
posted by Berend at 7:40 AM on March 19, 2002
Of course someone considered that
posted by Berend at 7:40 AM on March 19, 2002
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posted by ODiV at 2:59 AM on March 15, 2002