Two new "shots" prevent bleeding out

December 11, 2015 10:35 AM

Here's how a simple invention plugs a gunshot wound in 20 seconds Plus Scientists invented an injection based on snake venom that stops bleeding in 6 seconds (Warning: Graphic Imagery in both articles)
posted by Michele in California (23 comments total)

So is this useful for people on blood thinners who can bleed severely from small wounds, or is it only for large wounds?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:39 AM on December 11, 2015

If only I had a penguin...: "So is this useful for people on blood thinners who can bleed severely from small wounds, or is it only for large wounds?"

Well, you do have to be able to fit the applicator in the wound.

Still it is pretty cool. I had to use some of that chitin based blood clotter not too long ago (well, didn't HAVE to use, but a friend had some to spare and the old platelets were being lazy that day), and it worked a treat. Also, I like the fact that they allowed for radiotransparency issues.
posted by Samizdata at 10:44 AM on December 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

The first link is kind of a double, but it's still cool to see this story again.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 10:51 AM on December 11, 2015

XStat previously
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 10:52 AM on December 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

It seems like there should be a version of this that people on blood thinners can carry around like people with allergies carry epi-pens.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:53 AM on December 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

The second one is not yet FDA approved. It is still in development. It has potential to help people on blood thinners, depending on where they go with it. The first one is only for serious, deep wounds. Part of the intention is to stabilize the patient so they will live long enough to be medivaced out.
posted by Michele in California at 10:53 AM on December 11, 2015

The XStat is great because it's basically a combat tampon which is brilliant in its cross-domain simplicity.
posted by truex at 11:02 AM on December 11, 2015 [4 favorites]

This isn't a one-and-done solution that can be handed out with 10 minutes of training like an epipen. Packing the wound is only one part of patient care. It needs dressings, and quite possibly immobilization as well. It's the sort of thing that less useful for a first-aider (though I could see this in a wilderness kit), but might be a really helpful for first responders like paramedics and EMTs.
posted by bonehead at 11:34 AM on December 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Also derived from snake venom: ACE inhibitors to treat hypertension
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:39 AM on December 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Too bad bullets can't be made out of this tampon-clotting technology. Kill two birds with one stone. Except. uh. with less killing :-)
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:11 PM on December 11, 2015 [4 favorites]

This isn't a one-and-done solution that can be handed out with 10 minutes of training like an epipen.

I'm pretty sure epipens aren't one and done either. They're just buying time until real medical care is possible. I would think "keep someone from bleeding to death" until paramedics show up would be a useful thing to do, even if you didn't get everything else done right. I mean what happens if you don't dress the wound properly? Infection? If you don't immobilize, maybe greater risk of bleeding and also some possibility of loss of function or eventual amputation? Those are all bad things, but still better than being dead in a few minutes.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:49 PM on December 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I can imagine wanting it in my first aid kit if I lived in a rough part of town and thought that it wasn't just crazy talk that I might be dealing with a stabbing victim or gun shot victim at some point. Or if I lived in the middle of nowhere and had a shot gun on the wall to deal with bears or whatever.

I used to read medical records as part of my job. Deep stab wound records were kind of scary to read. They don't want to stitch you up because it can promote gangrene. Deep stab wounds are ugly. Gunshot wounds are also ugly, though I saw fewer of those.
posted by Michele in California at 1:01 PM on December 11, 2015

Too bad bullets can't be made out of this tampon-clotting technology. Kill two birds with one stone. Except. uh. with less killing :-)

Ironic historical footnote: around Vietnam the prevailing school of thought for ideal terminal ballistics switched from high-impact/kinetic energy transfer "manstopper" rounds (.357/.45 in pistols, 7.62x54mm/.30-06 in rifles) to post-impact fragmentation/tumbling and consequent exsanguination from increased internal wound surface area (5.56x45mm for NATO, 5.45x39mm for Warsaw Pact).

This shift in emphasis happened specifically because the exsanguination approach was more survivable in the long run and thus produced more wounded enemies - who consume far more resources than healthy ones (let alone dead ones) during any protracted military campaign. It also meshed nicely with the ongoing trend toward smaller, higher-velocity bullets for increased penetration of ballistic vests.
posted by Ryvar at 1:09 PM on December 11, 2015 [3 favorites]

Chitosan sounds like someone respectfully addressing a puffed cheese snack.
posted by Splunge at 1:40 PM on December 11, 2015 [6 favorites]

That's amazing good news for blood thinners. Well for any traumatic injury really. I have trouble stabilizing on warfarin but you can reverse it if surgery is needed and the alternative meds for blood thinning are just hard to manage. If they had a way to manage bleeding in emergency surgery that would save so many lives. Yay snakes! And bioengineering.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:17 PM on December 11, 2015

Closing a gunshot wound doesn't mean you can't bleed to death. You can from internal bleeding, you know.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 5:55 PM on December 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Closing a gunshot wound doesn't mean you can't bleed to death. You can from internal bleeding, you know.

Well nevermind, then, this is all useless?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:09 PM on December 11, 2015

I would think "keep someone from bleeding to death" until paramedics show up would be a useful thing to do, even if you didn't get everything else done right.

It's primary use is for wounds in the upper thighs and arms. Apparently, it's not approved for use in chest or abdomen wounds. So it looks like a pretty specialized device (right now at least) for fairly specific uses.

I mean what happens if you don't dress the wound properly? Infection?

Sepsis is a major concern our instructors tell us to keep an eye on for deep (into tissue) wounds. It's a shock reaction and can get serious pretty quickly. Death can happen in hours if you're really unlucky.

If you don't immobilize, maybe greater risk of bleeding and also some possibility of loss of function or eventual amputation?

I'm much less concerned with gunshot wounds, much more with falls or other environmental casualties like vehicle accidents. There the concern is for multiple sorts of injuries, a deep wound and a break would frequently go together. In that case, any break needs to be immobilized to prevent further damage. Bad upper leg and pelvis breaks are very much potentially fatal, a broken bone can open the femoral artery.

I come at this from the perspective of someone who has a bit of first aid training and may have to wait, in the worst cases a day or so for transport to arrive (we do a lot of camping/field work). I'm generally not as concerned with explosion fragment or bullet injuries (we're generally not in war zones).

This replaces sterile gauze in most cases, but from the list of limitations, this particular product seems aimed at a particular kind of injury that we aren't at high risk for in most outdoor scenarios. I also don't see that justifying the expense. Those chitosan things are hugely expensive. I'd rather just take a pack of chitosan then pack with gauze as needed. Seems to be more flexible.

In a city situation, dealing with the result of a crime or an accident, I'd think you would be better off just with firm pressure on the wound until the paras came, likely in under 5 minutes. You can't get a kit for the bathroom or the car or wherever and dress a wound that fast. At least I can't.
posted by bonehead at 8:17 PM on December 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Wouldn't it make more sense simply to melt all guns?
posted by oceanjesse at 8:45 PM on December 11, 2015

If only I had a penguin...: "Closing a gunshot wound doesn't mean you can't bleed to death. You can from internal bleeding, you know.

Well nevermind, then, this is all useless?"

Nope. What if there was no internal bleeding of any note? And, at least this might help keep them stable enough to get somewhere that CAN help with internal bleeding.
posted by Samizdata at 8:48 PM on December 11, 2015

Wouldn't it make more sense simply to melt all guns?

Because heads bashed in with rocks and sticks easier to treat?
posted by Dr Dracator at 10:42 PM on December 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Wouldn't it make more sense simply to melt all guns?

It would be super cool if we could avoid a gun control debate, so instead of shoulds let me instead point out that by even the most conservative estimate the number of privately-owned firearms in circulation in the US surpassed the population count sometime around 2008-2012, and that number is growing substantially faster than the population in every major study I'm aware of.

So, should happen remaining firmly set aside, even if an Australia-style ban went out tomorrow gun shot wounds will remain a routine experience for urban American emergency medical responders long after everyone reading this is dead. The fairly universal movement toward weapons and ammunition emphasizing exsanguination by the world's militaries (arguably more humane for all the wrong reasons) is not at all consistently reflected in civilian firearms, AR-15 nutters aside. New treatments that better handle any of the various aspects of ballistic trauma - ie, bullet yawing or fragmentation, bone fragmentation, temporary cavitation, hydrostatic shock, hypovolemic shock, hypoxia - can drastically increase the number of lives saved going forward and their development should always be applauded.
posted by Ryvar at 12:11 AM on December 12, 2015 [1 favorite]

Have used this

http://www.celoxmedical.com/usa/usacelox-in-action/usacelox-in-actionin-the-field/


for tiny cuts on bleeders and also comes in a syringe for major wounds

amazing -2 minutes-stopped spurting from small wound that didn't respond to anything else
posted by claptrap at 4:48 AM on December 12, 2015 [1 favorite]