There's a lot of heartache.
January 5, 2016 6:18 PM Subscribe
I'd like to be hopeful, but I can't.
This country accepted Sandy Hook. If you can cope with that, gun control simply does not matter to you.
And the majority of this country is good with that. A small minority claims it never happened.
So. Expect 10K+ to die from guns in 2016. Expect over 1000 to be killed by the police.
We've been good with that. Why would we change?
posted by eriko at 6:42 PM on January 5, 2016 [17 favorites]
This country accepted Sandy Hook. If you can cope with that, gun control simply does not matter to you.
And the majority of this country is good with that. A small minority claims it never happened.
So. Expect 10K+ to die from guns in 2016. Expect over 1000 to be killed by the police.
We've been good with that. Why would we change?
posted by eriko at 6:42 PM on January 5, 2016 [17 favorites]
This is the guy I voted for. It will be a long time before we have anyone with the same rhetorical power in the White House. If I wish he could do more it's only because I know he wishes that times 100000.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:44 PM on January 5, 2016 [46 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:44 PM on January 5, 2016 [46 favorites]
Yes because obviously someone can't be upset at the random murders of children ugh ugh ugh
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:57 PM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:57 PM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
So. Expect 10K+ to die from guns in 2016. Expect over 1000 to be killed by the police.at about 1:15:00 in the video (paraphrasing): "(Getting voters to push for safer gun laws) will be hard. It won't happen overnight. It won't happen during this Congress. It won't happen during my Presidency. But a lot of things don't happen overnight. The women's right to vote didn't happen overnight. Liberation of African Americans didn't happen overnight. LGBT rights ... that was decades of work. So just because it's hard, that's no excuse not to try."
We've been good with that. Why would we change?
There's an aspect of this that is a sadder version of Kennedy's "We choose to go to the Moon not because it's easy, but because it's hard."
Also earlier in that video he said, "We do not have to accept this carnage as the price of freedom" and it reminded me of an argument that I had with someone a month ago who basically said, "the greater good is to respect the rights of 80 million gun owners even if it means the deaths of 30,000."
and I just restrained myself from responding, "I see, you're on Team The Tree of Liberty Must Be Watered With The Blood Of Children then" but I believe Obama's statement is more productive.
posted by bl1nk at 7:07 PM on January 5, 2016 [41 favorites]
When I've talked to some conservative family members about their positions they actually share a lot of commonality-- I think a large portion of "pro-gun" people actually are in favor of increased background checks on people with a history of violence or abusive behavior, trainings and a number of policies that would help.
On their end they think all people who want to regulate guns want total removal of all guns which makes them more reactive and nutty.
The maddening thing about this is that I feel pretty sure a majority really do want to make some sensible changes but two reactive extremes are getting more press and taking us away from looking at some of the basic regulations that even pro-gun people tend to have in surveys last I checked.
posted by xarnop at 7:09 PM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
On their end they think all people who want to regulate guns want total removal of all guns which makes them more reactive and nutty.
The maddening thing about this is that I feel pretty sure a majority really do want to make some sensible changes but two reactive extremes are getting more press and taking us away from looking at some of the basic regulations that even pro-gun people tend to have in surveys last I checked.
posted by xarnop at 7:09 PM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
There is reason to be optimistic about guns in the U.S.
In 1980 50% of all households had guns. By 2014 that had declined to 31%. A lot of that has to do with immigration. Immigrants tend not to be indoctrinated into the American tradition of gun violence. For example in Mexico there is only 1/10 the rate of gun ownership as in the U.S.
Much like anti-gay bigots, the gun fetishists are on the decline. They are becoming a very small (but still loud) minority. Like gay rights, eventually we may reach a tipping point.
posted by JackFlash at 7:14 PM on January 5, 2016 [23 favorites]
In 1980 50% of all households had guns. By 2014 that had declined to 31%. A lot of that has to do with immigration. Immigrants tend not to be indoctrinated into the American tradition of gun violence. For example in Mexico there is only 1/10 the rate of gun ownership as in the U.S.
Much like anti-gay bigots, the gun fetishists are on the decline. They are becoming a very small (but still loud) minority. Like gay rights, eventually we may reach a tipping point.
posted by JackFlash at 7:14 PM on January 5, 2016 [23 favorites]
The maddening thing about this is that I feel pretty sure a majority really do want to make some sensible changes but two reactive extremes are getting more press and taking us away from looking at some of the basic regulations that even pro-gun people tend to have in surveys last I checked.
I share your sentiment, but who exactly is the other reactive extreme and where are they getting airplay? Surely you don't mean the Sandy Hook parents who have been far more restrained than I could ever be.
Frankly, I think we'd be better off if there were 2 extremes yelling at each other, because all the people in my world are getting pretty pissed off tiptoeing around the second amendment gun nuts, especially over entirely reasonable things that surely all reasonable people agree on like universal background checks.
I heartily support the president expressing the national outrage over this even knowing nothing will change with "this" congress, because that's the voice that is sorely lacking.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 7:19 PM on January 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
Onions? Ben Gay!
NOTHING IS TRUE EVERYTHING IS PERMITTED
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:20 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
NOTHING IS TRUE EVERYTHING IS PERMITTED
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:20 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
The CDC is not allowed to track firearms deaths in the US as a matter of public health and safety.
Even leaving aside for the moment mass shootings - given the sheer number of deaths from accidental shootings at home - where's the legal accountability for "law abiding" gun owners?
I'm not reflexively against people owning guns - but if you don't carefully store and handle guns and ammunition I believe that you should be criminally charged.
This is the case in my country. I believe in those laws. Heck, you can bring guns here (unless it's prohibited one) for a visit.
Many people in Canada are law-abiding gun owners. Nobody is coming to take away their guns unless they leave them where their kid pick it up and fire it. Nobody is coming to take away their guns unless they discharge one randomly or in a situation where wielding a gun is not a reasonable response to a deemed threat. Nobody is coming to take away their guns unless they show up at a store and brandish them.
Simply Google "toddler shooting." If "toddler shooting" doesn't make you sad, the search results will, or you're a sociopath. You'll find a bunch of stories where Americans have left their guns lying around and their child has picked up the gun and shot themselves, or another child and another adult.
In a good chunk of those stories, you'll find the parents haven't been charged with anything.
They shouldn't have care and control of either firearms, or in the same place and time, children. And the law should protect those kids.
This seems to me to be eminently reasonable.
For example in Mexico there is only 1/10 the rate of gun ownership as in the U.S.
If you are caught with guns in Mexico...
Now, let's talk about the drug cartel violence in Mexico (which has strict gun control). Well, as it turns out, (in part) because of the gun show loophole in the US, guns are traded for cocaine.
Guns leave the US, blow comes in. Gun companies essentially profit from the Sinaloa cartel et al.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:20 PM on January 5, 2016 [34 favorites]
Even leaving aside for the moment mass shootings - given the sheer number of deaths from accidental shootings at home - where's the legal accountability for "law abiding" gun owners?
I'm not reflexively against people owning guns - but if you don't carefully store and handle guns and ammunition I believe that you should be criminally charged.
This is the case in my country. I believe in those laws. Heck, you can bring guns here (unless it's prohibited one) for a visit.
Many people in Canada are law-abiding gun owners. Nobody is coming to take away their guns unless they leave them where their kid pick it up and fire it. Nobody is coming to take away their guns unless they discharge one randomly or in a situation where wielding a gun is not a reasonable response to a deemed threat. Nobody is coming to take away their guns unless they show up at a store and brandish them.
Simply Google "toddler shooting." If "toddler shooting" doesn't make you sad, the search results will, or you're a sociopath. You'll find a bunch of stories where Americans have left their guns lying around and their child has picked up the gun and shot themselves, or another child and another adult.
In a good chunk of those stories, you'll find the parents haven't been charged with anything.
They shouldn't have care and control of either firearms, or in the same place and time, children. And the law should protect those kids.
This seems to me to be eminently reasonable.
For example in Mexico there is only 1/10 the rate of gun ownership as in the U.S.
If you are caught with guns in Mexico...
Now, let's talk about the drug cartel violence in Mexico (which has strict gun control). Well, as it turns out, (in part) because of the gun show loophole in the US, guns are traded for cocaine.
Guns leave the US, blow comes in. Gun companies essentially profit from the Sinaloa cartel et al.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:20 PM on January 5, 2016 [34 favorites]
To all of the people on the news saying "This won't help."
Offer something that will.
posted by yesster at 7:39 PM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Offer something that will.
posted by yesster at 7:39 PM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Offer something that will.
Gun buyback program.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:51 PM on January 5, 2016 [12 favorites]
Gun buyback program.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:51 PM on January 5, 2016 [12 favorites]
John Oliver visits Australia, where gun control worked.
No mass shootings since 1996.
posted by adept256 at 7:55 PM on January 5, 2016 [13 favorites]
No mass shootings since 1996.
posted by adept256 at 7:55 PM on January 5, 2016 [13 favorites]
In 1980 50% of all households had guns. By 2014 that had declined to 31%.
You don't need to outlaw guns for "only outlaws to own one". It's becoming increasingly self-selecting as gun ownership is becoming more of an indicator for irresponsibility/stupidity/criminal intent. It also means the "good guy with a gun" argument is shown to be patently false, because the real GOOD guys are less and less likely to have guns.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:00 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
You don't need to outlaw guns for "only outlaws to own one". It's becoming increasingly self-selecting as gun ownership is becoming more of an indicator for irresponsibility/stupidity/criminal intent. It also means the "good guy with a gun" argument is shown to be patently false, because the real GOOD guys are less and less likely to have guns.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:00 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not to keep repeating this, but I grew up in Newtown. This, this thing that the President did. This is a small thing, but its something. Its all he can do without support from congress. I will never forget reading Joshua Dubois' account of President Obama comforting families in Sandy Hook. Newtown, Chicago, everywhere that children have died from this insane fetish America has for the right to murder, this won't stop most or even all murders, but it will stop some. We'll never know which murders it stopped because there's no way to account for all the times people aren't murdered with guns, but some will be stopped.
And anyone who is speculating over whether those tears are fake is official a monster of a human being.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:13 PM on January 5, 2016 [41 favorites]
And anyone who is speculating over whether those tears are fake is official a monster of a human being.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:13 PM on January 5, 2016 [41 favorites]
On their end they think all people who want to regulate guns want total removal of all guns which makes them more reactive and nutty.
That's the sentiment reflected in some comments I've seen; seems people feel any kind of constraint, even if it's banal and not something they'd oppose on its own, will start a slippery slope to [... something... I read the gun thread from a bit ago but still can't quite grasp what the fear is about. 2nd amendment, "rights", ok - but there's no way a handgun or automatic weapon or even a cannon could match state force if a need [?] to fight it emerged. They'd have to have a legit "well regulated militia". It seems to really be about fear of Other citizens and lack of faith in civil society and government - for ideological reasons I guess; otoh, could understand having issues trusting police etc].
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:20 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's the sentiment reflected in some comments I've seen; seems people feel any kind of constraint, even if it's banal and not something they'd oppose on its own, will start a slippery slope to [... something... I read the gun thread from a bit ago but still can't quite grasp what the fear is about. 2nd amendment, "rights", ok - but there's no way a handgun or automatic weapon or even a cannon could match state force if a need [?] to fight it emerged. They'd have to have a legit "well regulated militia". It seems to really be about fear of Other citizens and lack of faith in civil society and government - for ideological reasons I guess; otoh, could understand having issues trusting police etc].
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:20 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
To all of the people on the news saying "This won't help."
Offer something that will.
I've read that it's deliberately soft in order to withstand legal challenges. I think it's more of a statement-making exercise, intended to turn the tide of opinion, and prepare the ground for future legislators to more directly ( & probably effectively) address the real issues. Just a little something to say, firmly, unequivocally, and without apology to the gun nuts holding that government hostage - this shit is crazy.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:26 PM on January 5, 2016 [13 favorites]
Offer something that will.
I've read that it's deliberately soft in order to withstand legal challenges. I think it's more of a statement-making exercise, intended to turn the tide of opinion, and prepare the ground for future legislators to more directly ( & probably effectively) address the real issues. Just a little something to say, firmly, unequivocally, and without apology to the gun nuts holding that government hostage - this shit is crazy.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:26 PM on January 5, 2016 [13 favorites]
(So I guess the gun nuts are right to worry, ha. Tough nougies. Bravo, Obama.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:33 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:33 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've read that it's deliberately soft in order to withstand legal challenges.
Yep. His crack about being, you know, an actual constitutional scholar gave me the one chuckle out of the whole thing.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:46 PM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yep. His crack about being, you know, an actual constitutional scholar gave me the one chuckle out of the whole thing.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:46 PM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Up until a half hour ago (EST) it was TwoferTuesday on GOPdildo.
YMMV depending on time zone.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:25 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
YMMV depending on time zone.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:25 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
As an American, I am grateful for the humanity of our nation's twice-elected President.
There's a lot to be grateful to the President for. It's deviously brilliant how the Luntz machine hijacked the phrase "Thanks, Obama"
This just in, we interrupt the thought-interrupting cliché of "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" with Two guys without guns stop a guy with a gun from becoming a bad guy.
Warning: Graphic violence from 2:41 to 2:58
posted by otherchaz at 10:38 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's a lot to be grateful to the President for. It's deviously brilliant how the Luntz machine hijacked the phrase "Thanks, Obama"
This just in, we interrupt the thought-interrupting cliché of "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" with Two guys without guns stop a guy with a gun from becoming a bad guy.
Warning: Graphic violence from 2:41 to 2:58
posted by otherchaz at 10:38 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
saw a preview tonight for the armor of light; the avclub review thinks it pulls its punches when it comes to race,[1,2,3] but i'd be interested in "some necessary, personal perspective on the evolution of the evangelical movement: from being populated by left-leaning Carter voters to becoming rock-ribbed Reaganites [and] whether the appeal of catchphrases and easy answers has duped millions of well-meaning people into becoming unwitting shills for gun manufacturers, as they keep moving the line of what's acceptable."
posted by kliuless at 10:55 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by kliuless at 10:55 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Onions?
Just one more piece of evidence that every last person who works for FOX News is an unrepentant sociopath and gun nut who would otherwise be rotting away in prison for various horrible crimes against humanity, if Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch hadn't first given these scum paying jobs in front of a camera.
Much like anti-gay bigots, the gun fetishists are on the decline. They are becoming a very small (but still loud) minority. Like gay rights, eventually we may reach a tipping point.
Ammosexuals have more well-funded lobbies. Arms dealers aren't going away any time soon, and the US is the biggest arms dealer in the world.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:32 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Just one more piece of evidence that every last person who works for FOX News is an unrepentant sociopath and gun nut who would otherwise be rotting away in prison for various horrible crimes against humanity, if Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch hadn't first given these scum paying jobs in front of a camera.
Much like anti-gay bigots, the gun fetishists are on the decline. They are becoming a very small (but still loud) minority. Like gay rights, eventually we may reach a tipping point.
Ammosexuals have more well-funded lobbies. Arms dealers aren't going away any time soon, and the US is the biggest arms dealer in the world.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:32 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ammosexuals - I like that.
Hate what they are up to.
posted by adamvasco at 1:27 AM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hate what they are up to.
posted by adamvasco at 1:27 AM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
What is wrong with them?!
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:48 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:48 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Could the President order the CDC to do a special, 'Presidential Commission on gun violence' survey of gun deaths? Is that within the realm of the chief executives' powers?
posted by From Bklyn at 2:57 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by From Bklyn at 2:57 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
What is wrong with them?!
See Ricochet: Confessions of a Gun Lobbyist For a comprehensive answer .
tl,dr: Executive Vice President Wayne R. LaPierre Jr. Is pulling down over a million a year as a power broker inside the beltway and inside the NRA. He uses outrage amongst the faithful to intimidate congressmen, governors and gun companies.
I don't think he even shoots. My google-fu ain't great, but still in over 2 hours of searching, I couldn't find a pix of him hunting or target shooting.
The 2 legislators from NYC in that tweet make his job easy. 48 rounds a year for a revolver? I shoot more than that in less than an hour 12 times a year. If I take 2 kids, handguns and rifles; we can fire off 6-800 rounds in an afternoon.
posted by ridgerunner at 3:00 AM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
See Ricochet: Confessions of a Gun Lobbyist For a comprehensive answer .
tl,dr: Executive Vice President Wayne R. LaPierre Jr. Is pulling down over a million a year as a power broker inside the beltway and inside the NRA. He uses outrage amongst the faithful to intimidate congressmen, governors and gun companies.
I don't think he even shoots. My google-fu ain't great, but still in over 2 hours of searching, I couldn't find a pix of him hunting or target shooting.
The 2 legislators from NYC in that tweet make his job easy. 48 rounds a year for a revolver? I shoot more than that in less than an hour 12 times a year. If I take 2 kids, handguns and rifles; we can fire off 6-800 rounds in an afternoon.
posted by ridgerunner at 3:00 AM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
I love this man. That is all.
posted by persona au gratin at 3:12 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by persona au gratin at 3:12 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, it's irresponsible not to maintain good gun handleding skills. Coyotes, cougers, and black bears, in my part of the world, will leave when faced with dogs, but feral hogs and dogs will eat dogs, goats and calves. Unlike old German knights, I don't consider taking on a #350 boar, while armed with a spear, good training. Also I hunt most seasons.
posted by ridgerunner at 3:29 AM on January 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by ridgerunner at 3:29 AM on January 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
I personally don't think the "two extreme's" I mentioned are equivalents of each other, but the right side pro-gun media does a great job of taking those who want to ban guns entirely and using them to the fuel the false outrage against ANY gun regulation. When they start with saying the other side wants to come to your door and take your guns away, they are putting people on the defensive with frankly I find understandable fears of not only criminals being the only ones with guns but of the long dark history of ongoing abuses a horrors carried out by the government without any meaningful checks and balances. I've been taking the time to have in depth conversations with pro-gun people and I will say I know some TERRIFYING pro-gun people who are exactly the sort of people who should have them removed yesterday, but larger portion seem to be people who would support many of the gun regulations that would help if their fox news and other media sites would stop framing all ideas about gun control as people coming to the door and demanding their guns immediately.
Gun buyback programs as mentioned are less confrontational and less likely to result in the mass deaths I honestly think would happen in the US if we sent officers into everyone's home to take their guns. There are a lot of options the moderates on both sides would be happy with if we could actually get that conversation happening.
posted by xarnop at 5:00 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Gun buyback programs as mentioned are less confrontational and less likely to result in the mass deaths I honestly think would happen in the US if we sent officers into everyone's home to take their guns. There are a lot of options the moderates on both sides would be happy with if we could actually get that conversation happening.
posted by xarnop at 5:00 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
It is a sad state of affairs when the leader of a country looks at all under his watch and weeps. You just wonder what does it take to get through all that fear hidden as rage...
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 5:33 AM on January 6, 2016
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 5:33 AM on January 6, 2016
It's funny/sad/telling the the radical, 'extreme' anti-gun position in the US is the standard position for most of the rest of humanity.
Is anybody else tired of American exceptionalism?
posted by signal at 7:07 AM on January 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
Is anybody else tired of American exceptionalism?
posted by signal at 7:07 AM on January 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
less likely to result in the mass deaths I honestly think would happen in the US if we sent officers into everyone's home to take their guns.
No one has ever made a serious proposal to do this. Ever. That's why it is such an irrational fear.
posted by agregoli at 7:29 AM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
No one has ever made a serious proposal to do this. Ever. That's why it is such an irrational fear.
posted by agregoli at 7:29 AM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
In my fantasy alternate reality, the Obama White House hires Aaron Sorkin to write one single epic speech to deliver the message on guns (esp assault weapons) clearly, logically, and powerfully and shut down every single goddamned critic in the room including the snivelling NRA lobbyist in the corner played by Richard Dreyfuss.
It's moving that Obama cried for the kids. But, in a Sorkin-type scenario, he would have turned around 90 seconds later and unleashed the hounds of hell.
I just wish the DNC, in general, could deliver a message cleanly across all party lines and media like the GOP can. I know that's a common complaint. There's just never any progress.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:35 AM on January 6, 2016
It's moving that Obama cried for the kids. But, in a Sorkin-type scenario, he would have turned around 90 seconds later and unleashed the hounds of hell.
I just wish the DNC, in general, could deliver a message cleanly across all party lines and media like the GOP can. I know that's a common complaint. There's just never any progress.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:35 AM on January 6, 2016
I wish I could find a straightforward article on Australia's supposed gun confiscation program and what it actually looked like or whether it is in it's entirety a myth. Googling honestly doesn't seem to get me closer to the truth as a majority of posts- from what I can tell it was a "mandatory" buyback program but I'm not sure what that actually means.
I understand why when you propose mandatory gun confiscation that people assume the force of the law will be coming down on them because that is what mandatory implies.
posted by xarnop at 7:49 AM on January 6, 2016
I understand why when you propose mandatory gun confiscation that people assume the force of the law will be coming down on them because that is what mandatory implies.
posted by xarnop at 7:49 AM on January 6, 2016
In my fantasy alternate reality
A bunch of billionaires get together and buyout the lobbyists working for the NRA and see to the implementation of a bunch of regular, common-sense laws ...
posted by From Bklyn at 8:10 AM on January 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
A bunch of billionaires get together and buyout the lobbyists working for the NRA and see to the implementation of a bunch of regular, common-sense laws ...
posted by From Bklyn at 8:10 AM on January 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
A bunch of billionaires get together and buyout the lobbyists working for the NRA...
Yeah, I like your idea better.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:44 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I like your idea better.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:44 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
German Lopez: Gun violence has already killed at least 147 people in the US in 2016
Gun a-holes have already accidentally fired into neighbors' homes and properties 20 times since New Year's.
And like the other figures, these aren't even all the incidents, just the ones being reported on internet-available news sites.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:06 AM on January 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
These figures are, if anything, an underestimate. Based on 2013 data, there are approximately 92 gun deaths on average each day in America — about 30 per day are homicides, and roughly 58 are suicides. So one would expect there to be at least 368 gun deaths already in 2016 — although that's based on an average over a whole year, so it might not apply to the beginning of 2016.And from David Waldman: How long did it take to find 10 reports of kids accidentally shot in 2016? Four days.
While the total number of homicides is dropping, along with all crime, the reality is no other developed nation deals with the same kind of gun-related bloodshed that the US does: America has nearly six times the number of gun homicides as Canada, more than seven times as many as Sweden, and nearly 16 times as many as Germany, according to UN data compiled by the Guardian.
America also has way more guns. According to a 2007 estimate, the number of civilian-owned firearms in the US was 88.8 guns per 100 people, meaning there was almost one privately owned gun per American and more than one per American adult. The world's second-ranked country was Yemen, a quasi-failed state torn by civil war, where there were 54.8 guns per 100 people.
These two issues — the numbers of guns and gun deaths — are linked: Reviews of the empirical research by the Harvard School of Public Health's Injury Control Research Center have consistently found that when controlling for variables such as socioeconomic factors and other crime, places with more guns have more gun deaths.
As a result, Americans live in a country where just four days into 2016, we have more gun deaths than some countries do in an entire year.
Gun a-holes have already accidentally fired into neighbors' homes and properties 20 times since New Year's.
And like the other figures, these aren't even all the incidents, just the ones being reported on internet-available news sites.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:06 AM on January 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
Why Is President Obama Still Mystified About Our Inaction on Gun Violence? The president will now personally drag the country forward on gun legislation.
posted by homunculus at 11:11 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 11:11 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Thank the NRA and Their Boot Lickers for the Fear We All Live Under
posted by homunculus at 11:12 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 11:12 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thanks, ridgerunner, will check out that book.
Appreciate your bringing attention to those docs, kliuless. I can't find a logical or emotional point of entry towards an understanding of the attachment to guns (although from the outside, there does appear to be a sexual charge to some of it, hat tip to ALOD). It's a "what's it like to be a bat" sort of question. A cultural-historical perspective may be helpful, thank you. Will go back to this previously as well. because I am ceaselessly what the whaaaat on this
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:57 AM on January 6, 2016
Appreciate your bringing attention to those docs, kliuless. I can't find a logical or emotional point of entry towards an understanding of the attachment to guns (although from the outside, there does appear to be a sexual charge to some of it, hat tip to ALOD). It's a "what's it like to be a bat" sort of question. A cultural-historical perspective may be helpful, thank you. Will go back to this previously as well. because I am ceaselessly what the whaaaat on this
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:57 AM on January 6, 2016
"the greater good is to respect the rights of 80 million gun owners even if it means the deaths of 30,000."
Has there been any outspoken guns rights activists who had lost a relative in a mass shooting? I'd like to see the "price of freedom" stance argued by someone who'd just lost their child, not a hypothetical group of 30,000 strangers.
posted by monologish at 2:09 PM on January 6, 2016
Has there been any outspoken guns rights activists who had lost a relative in a mass shooting? I'd like to see the "price of freedom" stance argued by someone who'd just lost their child, not a hypothetical group of 30,000 strangers.
posted by monologish at 2:09 PM on January 6, 2016
I wish I could find a straightforward article on Australia's supposed gun confiscation program and what it actually looked like or whether it is in it's entirety a myth. Googling honestly doesn't seem to get me closer to the truth as a majority of posts- from what I can tell it was a "mandatory" buyback program but I'm not sure what that actually means.
I only have peripheral knowledge but I've also seen the 'mandatory buyback' system with other things as well. It's basically 'you are registered with X, you must give X to This Place and you will be reimbursed $$$'. If you don't, the letters get more stern, and I think in some cases there were legal threats (a relative owned guns legally after the buyback but was convicted of domestic violence and part of the conviction was losing all of his guns). I'm not sure how it went for non-registered weapons but I don't think that was much of an issue in Oz outside inherited stuff (and even then it was registered somewhere).
Like I said, peripheral and watching from the sidelines so may well be wrong, I was a teenager when Bryant did his thing and as much as I loathed Howard, he managed the buyback well.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:21 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I only have peripheral knowledge but I've also seen the 'mandatory buyback' system with other things as well. It's basically 'you are registered with X, you must give X to This Place and you will be reimbursed $$$'. If you don't, the letters get more stern, and I think in some cases there were legal threats (a relative owned guns legally after the buyback but was convicted of domestic violence and part of the conviction was losing all of his guns). I'm not sure how it went for non-registered weapons but I don't think that was much of an issue in Oz outside inherited stuff (and even then it was registered somewhere).
Like I said, peripheral and watching from the sidelines so may well be wrong, I was a teenager when Bryant did his thing and as much as I loathed Howard, he managed the buyback well.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:21 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wish I could find a straightforward article on Australia's supposed gun confiscation program and what it actually looked like or whether it is in it's entirety a myth. Googling honestly doesn't seem to get me closer to the truth as a majority of posts- from what I can tell it was a "mandatory" buyback program but I'm not sure what that actually means.
xarnop, it is not a myth. It is said that there have been no mass shootings in Australia since 1996, though it does depend how you define these things. For example, there have been incidents where more than three people have been shot but not killed (eg Monash Uni shooting, after which there were still further legal restrictions on guns enacted) or incidents in which more than three people have died, but in a murder-suicide situation which really isn't what most people mean by a "mass shooting". Those wanting to split hairs always have ammunition (ha).
On the other gun thread I posted about the gun buyback. The main article offers a pretty good overview of how exactly the buyback worked in practice, once the legislation had been pushed through, and what was meant by "mandatory". The "Gun Facts" tab on that link has a lot of information on statistics, who is allowed to own guns and under what conditions, how guns are manufactured and sold, etc. But the summary is really quite good. The Library of Congress also has a really good annotated explanation of how the whole buyback worked.
The problem with finding reports about how the Australian gun buyback actually worked as it was being implemented, rather than details of the legislation or articles saying how effective it has wound up being speaking with the benefit of hindsight, is that it happened in the mid 90s (Howard initiated the buyback in 1996) and although it certainly wound up being reported on in the press, archives of newspapers from that period are on microfilm and CD-ROM, not the internet. Ex-newspaper librarian here, don't get me started on the "gap years" of newspaper research.
The main contemporaneous source I've managed to find online is this transcript of a 7.30 Report on the topic of how the buyback was proceeding in 1999 (three years later). There's also this 1997/98 audit report from the Australian National Audit Office on the Gun Buy-Back scheme which, although is obviously quite different from news media, still gives you an idea.
From an anecdotal perspective, I remember the buyback mostly proceeding really well because people were so horrified by Port Arthur (and, since I live in Melbourne, the memory of the Hoddle Street massacre was still pretty fresh too). Sure there were people in the country who wanted/needed to keep guns, but most people seemed to agree that simple guns instead of super-killing-instruments (sorry, I am not a gun person and have limited understanding about different sorts of gun tech) were adequate and there didn't need to be very many of them. Australia has a very different culture about the role of the federal government, the role of guns, the military, the usefulness of weapons in defending oneself, etc. It helps dramatically as well that there is no enshrined right to bear arms in the Constitution. That said, not being a gun person myself, it is possible that I just didn't know anyone who felt strongly about their need or right to remain a gun-owner. It's true that the same arguments on both sides keep coming out in Australia too. Except here the latest guns that might be bought back are lever-action shotguns rather than, you know, semi-automatics, assault rifles and the like.
posted by Athanassiel at 5:59 PM on January 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
xarnop, it is not a myth. It is said that there have been no mass shootings in Australia since 1996, though it does depend how you define these things. For example, there have been incidents where more than three people have been shot but not killed (eg Monash Uni shooting, after which there were still further legal restrictions on guns enacted) or incidents in which more than three people have died, but in a murder-suicide situation which really isn't what most people mean by a "mass shooting". Those wanting to split hairs always have ammunition (ha).
On the other gun thread I posted about the gun buyback. The main article offers a pretty good overview of how exactly the buyback worked in practice, once the legislation had been pushed through, and what was meant by "mandatory". The "Gun Facts" tab on that link has a lot of information on statistics, who is allowed to own guns and under what conditions, how guns are manufactured and sold, etc. But the summary is really quite good. The Library of Congress also has a really good annotated explanation of how the whole buyback worked.
The problem with finding reports about how the Australian gun buyback actually worked as it was being implemented, rather than details of the legislation or articles saying how effective it has wound up being speaking with the benefit of hindsight, is that it happened in the mid 90s (Howard initiated the buyback in 1996) and although it certainly wound up being reported on in the press, archives of newspapers from that period are on microfilm and CD-ROM, not the internet. Ex-newspaper librarian here, don't get me started on the "gap years" of newspaper research.
The main contemporaneous source I've managed to find online is this transcript of a 7.30 Report on the topic of how the buyback was proceeding in 1999 (three years later). There's also this 1997/98 audit report from the Australian National Audit Office on the Gun Buy-Back scheme which, although is obviously quite different from news media, still gives you an idea.
From an anecdotal perspective, I remember the buyback mostly proceeding really well because people were so horrified by Port Arthur (and, since I live in Melbourne, the memory of the Hoddle Street massacre was still pretty fresh too). Sure there were people in the country who wanted/needed to keep guns, but most people seemed to agree that simple guns instead of super-killing-instruments (sorry, I am not a gun person and have limited understanding about different sorts of gun tech) were adequate and there didn't need to be very many of them. Australia has a very different culture about the role of the federal government, the role of guns, the military, the usefulness of weapons in defending oneself, etc. It helps dramatically as well that there is no enshrined right to bear arms in the Constitution. That said, not being a gun person myself, it is possible that I just didn't know anyone who felt strongly about their need or right to remain a gun-owner. It's true that the same arguments on both sides keep coming out in Australia too. Except here the latest guns that might be bought back are lever-action shotguns rather than, you know, semi-automatics, assault rifles and the like.
posted by Athanassiel at 5:59 PM on January 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
John Oliver investigates Australian gun control.
posted by divabat at 6:26 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by divabat at 6:26 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Talking about 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is language that is mainly used by pro-gun folks, and it is intentionally reductive in a way that I don't think furthers the discourse. Most of us are neither all the way good nor all the way bad, and pretending otherwise is ignoring the, uh, elephant gun in the room.
posted by box at 6:28 PM on January 6, 2016
posted by box at 6:28 PM on January 6, 2016
Just to confirm what Athanassiel said about the Australian gun buy-back. The basics of it were quite straight-forward, there wasn't a lot of angst about it, and it was generally perceived as a success. Even I, a confirmed hater of John Howard, praise him for dealing with it in a sensible and sensitive manner and that is about the only nice thing I can say about him. I know a few granddads who handed in shotguns because they didn't use them any more; they were happy to have someone take the responsibility off their hands and get a bit of money in exchange.
I can still get a gun. If I want to take up competitive/recreational shooting, I can join a gun club and undergo background checks, keep my gear at secure club facilities and so on. Australia does quite well in international shooting competitions like the Olympics, etc. If I buy a farm or live in rural areas with pest control problems, I can own types of guns suited to killing rabbits, foxes, etc which might harm my livestock. If I live in a hunting area, I can acquire a license and the gear needed for duck shooting, etc during established seasons and ranges.
What I can't do is keep a gun as part of my standard household gear. My house and car have been broken into, and I'm pretty sure I've interrupted a guy casing my place. I've had a couple of guys try to steal my wallet as I walked down the street. At no time was I in fear of my life, because the chances of rando druggies carrying a gun are so ridiculously low it never even occurred to me until afterwards. Any money they get goes straight to drugs, not weapons. Bikie gangs and other criminal groups still have illegal firearms, but they only shoot each other and occasionally cops who intervene. If a few more drugs were legalised a lot of those gangs wouldn't have much reason to exist. Rural suicides by gun are still relatively common, but that has more to do with the depressed economics of rural areas than gun control in my opinion.
You can also search pretty much any combination of "gun" and "Australia" in the blue to hear from Aussie Mefites who were around when the buyback happened.
posted by harriet vane at 8:27 PM on January 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
I can still get a gun. If I want to take up competitive/recreational shooting, I can join a gun club and undergo background checks, keep my gear at secure club facilities and so on. Australia does quite well in international shooting competitions like the Olympics, etc. If I buy a farm or live in rural areas with pest control problems, I can own types of guns suited to killing rabbits, foxes, etc which might harm my livestock. If I live in a hunting area, I can acquire a license and the gear needed for duck shooting, etc during established seasons and ranges.
What I can't do is keep a gun as part of my standard household gear. My house and car have been broken into, and I'm pretty sure I've interrupted a guy casing my place. I've had a couple of guys try to steal my wallet as I walked down the street. At no time was I in fear of my life, because the chances of rando druggies carrying a gun are so ridiculously low it never even occurred to me until afterwards. Any money they get goes straight to drugs, not weapons. Bikie gangs and other criminal groups still have illegal firearms, but they only shoot each other and occasionally cops who intervene. If a few more drugs were legalised a lot of those gangs wouldn't have much reason to exist. Rural suicides by gun are still relatively common, but that has more to do with the depressed economics of rural areas than gun control in my opinion.
You can also search pretty much any combination of "gun" and "Australia" in the blue to hear from Aussie Mefites who were around when the buyback happened.
posted by harriet vane at 8:27 PM on January 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Has there been any outspoken guns rights activists who had lost a relative in a mass shooting?Suzanna Hupp (née Gratia) became a major advocate for the right to carry concealed weapons in Texas and elsewhere after watching her parents be killed in the Luby's Cafeteria shooting of 1991.
posted by Hatashran at 9:19 PM on January 6, 2016
Paul Waldman: How the NRA and gun manufacturers work together to scam gun owners
The numbers tell the story of a transformation in gun culture, from many more people owning a gun or two (often a rifle or a shotgun) to a smaller number of owners each buying many more guns, mostly handguns. And this is just what the NRA encourages, by feeding twin climates of fear. First, the organization, particularly its chief Wayne LaPierre, regularly describes America as a kind of post-apocalyptic hellscape right out of Mad Max, where only the armed can survive. As he wrote in a 2013 article, "Hurricanes. Tornadoes. Riots. Terrorists. Gangs. Lone criminals. These are perils we are sure to face — not just maybe. It's not paranoia to buy a gun. It's survival."posted by zombieflanders at 7:22 AM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Second, the NRA cries that no matter what's going on in the political world, it portends an imminent massive gun confiscation. President Obama wants more background checks? Nope, he's really coming to take your guns. There's an election coming up? If Democrats win, they're going to take your guns. You shouldn't just have a gun, you should have lots of guns, and you should buy more right now because you never know when the government are going to send their jackbooted thugs to invade your home and take them away.
What do you call the frightened, paranoid, insecure guy having a midlife crisis who prepares for the inevitable breakdown of society and shakes his fist at the president? You call him a customer. He's the one who responds to every "urgent" appeal from the NRA to donate a few more dollars and go buy another rifle or handgun or two, while the manufacturers watch their profits rise and their stock prices soar. He's money in the bank.
What the President "did in secret" in Newtown
I did not know about some the of those details, like how badly some children were shot. I'm pent up with rage all over again. This shit needs to stop.
posted by numaner at 7:41 PM on January 7, 2016
I did not know about some the of those details, like how badly some children were shot. I'm pent up with rage all over again. This shit needs to stop.
posted by numaner at 7:41 PM on January 7, 2016
This shit needs to stop.
These massacres are not abstract tragedies and these massacres do not happen in some vacuum.
Tragedies are random. These massacres are not random events.
These massacres are the direct, causal, and end result of gun owners either making their weapons available to murderers, or using their weapons, themselves, to massacre children and other innocent human beings.
These massacres will not stop until gun owners take responsibility for their purchase and ownership of their guns and the consequences of their purchase and ownership of their guns, or until a civil, law-abiding society forces them to take responsibility.
Constitutional amendment or no, it is as simple as that, cut and dried, period.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:52 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
These massacres are not abstract tragedies and these massacres do not happen in some vacuum.
Tragedies are random. These massacres are not random events.
These massacres are the direct, causal, and end result of gun owners either making their weapons available to murderers, or using their weapons, themselves, to massacre children and other innocent human beings.
These massacres will not stop until gun owners take responsibility for their purchase and ownership of their guns and the consequences of their purchase and ownership of their guns, or until a civil, law-abiding society forces them to take responsibility.
Constitutional amendment or no, it is as simple as that, cut and dried, period.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:52 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
President Obama Is Not Afraid of Gun Owners: He was taking names at his town hall last night.
posted by homunculus at 5:44 PM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 5:44 PM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Emotional Wayne LaPierre Honors Victims Of Background Checks
posted by zombieflanders at 7:14 AM on January 11, 2016
posted by zombieflanders at 7:14 AM on January 11, 2016
« Older Meet our darling little Navratilova! | PANICKED NUN Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by 4ster at 6:31 PM on January 5, 2016 [44 favorites]