Stop Doing This. Please Retweet!
February 3, 2016 9:28 AM Subscribe
Reading a barrage of violent comments and threats doesn’t make me want to retaliate. It doesn’t make me want to fire back at those guys with the same hate and rage that they spewed my direction about me and the rest of my gender. It makes me want to censor myself. It makes me hesitant to write certain jokes. Could this tweet make hundreds of men tell me I belong locked in their closet? Will this idea I’m putting out there also end in threats of rape or murder?Is That a Threat?, by Alison Leiby for The Lighthouse.
Several men, once blocked, took a screenshot of that action and began spreading that I could not take a joke. I can take a joke. I love taking jokes, that’s why I do comedy. What I can’t take is being called a “worthless cunt” five times by the same person and then admonished for not being “grateful” that another man respected me enough to call me “sweetheart.”
QFT
posted by chavenet at 9:36 AM on February 3, 2016 [20 favorites]
QFT
posted by chavenet at 9:36 AM on February 3, 2016 [20 favorites]
I am a woman and I am on the Internet. It’s brave. It’s not “eat a burger in public” brave, but it’s still pretty admirable.
Have public burger-eaters been attacked recently or something? I think I am missing the reference here. Is she referring to being fat-shamed?
posted by thelonius at 9:39 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Have public burger-eaters been attacked recently or something? I think I am missing the reference here. Is she referring to being fat-shamed?
posted by thelonius at 9:39 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
> I’ve never understood the inclination to engage with something I don’t like — on social media or otherwise. That’s the beauty of Twitter. If you don’t agree with someone, you can unfollow them. If something upsets you, you can block it. We all have that luxury.
The men who do this sort of thing can't just move on or block her, because if they did she'd still be out there tweeting and writing essays and telling jokes they don't like and their rage is tied to their desire to dominate and control women. That's what it comes down to.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:39 AM on February 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
The men who do this sort of thing can't just move on or block her, because if they did she'd still be out there tweeting and writing essays and telling jokes they don't like and their rage is tied to their desire to dominate and control women. That's what it comes down to.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:39 AM on February 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
Have public burger-eaters been attacked recently or something? I think I am missing the reference here. Is she referring to being fat-shamed?
It's a joke about how every choice women make, especially ones that might make us unappealing to men like admitting that we eat food, is wrong and shameful.
posted by phunniemee at 9:41 AM on February 3, 2016 [49 favorites]
It's a joke about how every choice women make, especially ones that might make us unappealing to men like admitting that we eat food, is wrong and shameful.
posted by phunniemee at 9:41 AM on February 3, 2016 [49 favorites]
It makes me want to censor myself. It makes me hesitant to write certain jokes.
And that's really the point of it. It's a massive, collaborative, incredibly time-consuming silencing tactic by misogynistic men who take pride in being able to chase women off the internet, and gave gamified it, and there's nothing to be done about it until the platforms themselves recognize their role in the creation of a mass harassment tool and take serious, practical steps to address it.
posted by maxsparber at 9:44 AM on February 3, 2016 [33 favorites]
And that's really the point of it. It's a massive, collaborative, incredibly time-consuming silencing tactic by misogynistic men who take pride in being able to chase women off the internet, and gave gamified it, and there's nothing to be done about it until the platforms themselves recognize their role in the creation of a mass harassment tool and take serious, practical steps to address it.
posted by maxsparber at 9:44 AM on February 3, 2016 [33 favorites]
I abandoned Twitter (and Facebook and other 'social media') to the assholes and self-promoters some time ago, and am not going back until somebody creates a 'social media' that is NOT ANTI-social.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:46 AM on February 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:46 AM on February 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
Several men, once blocked, took a screenshot of that action and began spreading that I could not take a joke.
Which is hilarious (not) coming from dudes who are so goddamn thin-skinned that they think rape and death threats are an appropriate reaction to a joke they don't like, or, basically, any woman who has the gall to not appease their egos.
posted by rtha at 9:49 AM on February 3, 2016 [21 favorites]
Which is hilarious (not) coming from dudes who are so goddamn thin-skinned that they think rape and death threats are an appropriate reaction to a joke they don't like, or, basically, any woman who has the gall to not appease their egos.
posted by rtha at 9:49 AM on February 3, 2016 [21 favorites]
A well-meaning commenter takes several paragraphs to reassure her that (although of course she is wrong and told a bad joke), she should not take the response to heart, because "these are not men... In the future, if you don’t mind. Please refrain from calling these individuals 'men'. Cockgoblins, dickweasels, douchecanoes, fuckwits, shitstains, somalian ass-pirates, or 'boys' are all suitable terms."
Bless his heart. I am sick to death of that. They are not a subspecies of H. sapiens. They are your brothers and mine. That is where the problem lies.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:49 AM on February 3, 2016 [80 favorites]
Bless his heart. I am sick to death of that. They are not a subspecies of H. sapiens. They are your brothers and mine. That is where the problem lies.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:49 AM on February 3, 2016 [80 favorites]
Oh, the joys of being a woman on the Internet. It is exhausting, infuriating, and only rarely any fun.
posted by Kitteh at 9:57 AM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 9:57 AM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
If there was an app that'd automatically call the mothers and wives of those insult/threat-emitting men detailing said insults and threats .. Would it make things better? Or is shaming irrelevant for this segment of the population?
posted by mikhuang at 10:02 AM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mikhuang at 10:02 AM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
The top comment on her piece is some dude mansplaining the issue.
posted by amanda at 10:04 AM on February 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by amanda at 10:04 AM on February 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
The top comment on her piece is some dude mansplaining the issue.
Yeah! and I looove how it starts off by sharing his invaluable opinion that the tweet was neither funny nor accurate but that’s ok, because "not every joke is" and "we’re allowed to have different opinions", ooh, thanks.
Good lord that’s possibly even more annoying than direct insults. The patronizing!
posted by bitteschoen at 10:09 AM on February 3, 2016 [27 favorites]
Yeah! and I looove how it starts off by sharing his invaluable opinion that the tweet was neither funny nor accurate but that’s ok, because "not every joke is" and "we’re allowed to have different opinions", ooh, thanks.
Good lord that’s possibly even more annoying than direct insults. The patronizing!
posted by bitteschoen at 10:09 AM on February 3, 2016 [27 favorites]
Yeah, i am not proud of myself but I signed up for an account just to rip that asshole a new one.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:12 AM on February 3, 2016 [40 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:12 AM on February 3, 2016 [40 favorites]
That comment is ASTONISHING. I think it may in fact be the rosetta stone of all human folly.
"Hey, as an awesome guy in a just and perfect world, let me rephrase your article in a way that encompasses all variations of the No True Scotsman argument and allows me to pat your head like a cute kitten."
Umm..... chapeau?
posted by selfnoise at 10:18 AM on February 3, 2016 [16 favorites]
"Hey, as an awesome guy in a just and perfect world, let me rephrase your article in a way that encompasses all variations of the No True Scotsman argument and allows me to pat your head like a cute kitten."
Umm..... chapeau?
posted by selfnoise at 10:18 AM on February 3, 2016 [16 favorites]
Yes! She buries the lede, I have been saying this for more than a decade:
My point is for men: Stop doing this. The only thing gained from you saying disgusting, aggressive, sexual, violent, and threatening things on the internet is that we now know that you’re part of the problem.
posted by bilabial at 10:18 AM on February 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
My point is for men: Stop doing this. The only thing gained from you saying disgusting, aggressive, sexual, violent, and threatening things on the internet is that we now know that you’re part of the problem.
posted by bilabial at 10:18 AM on February 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
To Women: Don't make waves on social media. Because boys will be boys. Don't make waves in the workplace. Because boys will be boys.
I need to grab my Holy Basil and take an extra one thanks to this article and the post right before this one about working on Wall Street.
posted by narancia at 10:20 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
I need to grab my Holy Basil and take an extra one thanks to this article and the post right before this one about working on Wall Street.
posted by narancia at 10:20 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
If there was an app that'd automatically call the mothers and wives of those insult/threat-emitting men detailing said insults and threats .. Would it make things better?
By making more women do more emotional labor? Not really, no.
posted by Etrigan at 10:36 AM on February 3, 2016 [44 favorites]
By making more women do more emotional labor? Not really, no.
posted by Etrigan at 10:36 AM on February 3, 2016 [44 favorites]
Two recent cases have set the legal protections on on-line harassment recently, in Canada; Gregory Elliott was found not guilty for harassment and other charges against two women, while Damany Skeene was found guilty of criminal harassment and uttering threats in a case against a former cabinet minister that's only just come to light.
I'm hardly expert enough to understand all the differences here, but the (second) article says:
posted by bonehead at 10:38 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm hardly expert enough to understand all the differences here, but the (second) article says:
What the judge (in Elliott’s case) basically was saying is if the two of you want to use Twitter to engage in a consensual exchange of insults, it’s not going to be a crime,” ... The judge in that case ruled that the women in question, Stephanie Guthrie and Heather Reilly, did not have a reasonable fear of Elliott because they continued to engage with him online.My take away is that an exchange is not (criminal) harassment if the exchange is an argument, mutual and continuing, however, if it is threatening it certainly can be found to be criminal. So legally, if someone is told to back off and blocked, but continues to contact, that could be grounds for a criminal complaint, especially if threats of any kind are uttered.
In Skeene’s case, Justice Edward Kelly “found the tweets to be overtly threatening both physically and sexually in nature,” according to Luka Rados. Rados represented Skeene — who could not be reached for direct comment — and argued in court that his tweets amounted to political speech.
posted by bonehead at 10:38 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
If there was an app that'd automatically call the mothers and wives of those insult/threat-emitting men detailing said insults and threats .. Would it make things better?
Honestly, I think the only thing that is going to make this shit better is other men deriding these men for behaving shamefully. These fuckers are misogynist and they dismiss women who challenge them on that. Why the hell would they listen to women? Men need to take the front line on calling this shit out among their friends.
posted by sciatrix at 10:42 AM on February 3, 2016 [42 favorites]
Honestly, I think the only thing that is going to make this shit better is other men deriding these men for behaving shamefully. These fuckers are misogynist and they dismiss women who challenge them on that. Why the hell would they listen to women? Men need to take the front line on calling this shit out among their friends.
posted by sciatrix at 10:42 AM on February 3, 2016 [42 favorites]
Two recent cases have set the legal protections on on-line harassment recently, in Canada
While in the US, cops are sent to the home of a member of Congress who sponsored a bill to make swatting a federal crime.
posted by nickmark at 10:59 AM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
While in the US, cops are sent to the home of a member of Congress who sponsored a bill to make swatting a federal crime.
posted by nickmark at 10:59 AM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Honestly, I think the only thing that is going to make this shit better is other men deriding these men for behaving shamefully.
I have been doing exactly that for about eight months now, every single time I see it. The result? Men have retreated into "u mad bro?" and "you use a lot of big words" and call me a white knight and a social justice warrior.
It's fairly inexpensive for me, in that it only costs me time -- I have yet to be targeted for the sort of abuse women regularly experience for participating online. But it also feels like it isn't accomplishing anything, or, at least, won't do anything to stop the aggressive serial offenders. It's possible that it communicates to the larger readership that men as a whole don't agree with this, and possible that it communicates to the women who are suffering abuse that men are willing to take on some of the chore of addressing this.
But the actual abuse continues unabated, because the abusers always have a way of ignoring criticism, even when it is from another man, and will do so until Facebook and Twitter and Reddit and every other organization that profits by this and refuses to address this reverses their position.
posted by maxsparber at 11:05 AM on February 3, 2016 [16 favorites]
I have been doing exactly that for about eight months now, every single time I see it. The result? Men have retreated into "u mad bro?" and "you use a lot of big words" and call me a white knight and a social justice warrior.
It's fairly inexpensive for me, in that it only costs me time -- I have yet to be targeted for the sort of abuse women regularly experience for participating online. But it also feels like it isn't accomplishing anything, or, at least, won't do anything to stop the aggressive serial offenders. It's possible that it communicates to the larger readership that men as a whole don't agree with this, and possible that it communicates to the women who are suffering abuse that men are willing to take on some of the chore of addressing this.
But the actual abuse continues unabated, because the abusers always have a way of ignoring criticism, even when it is from another man, and will do so until Facebook and Twitter and Reddit and every other organization that profits by this and refuses to address this reverses their position.
posted by maxsparber at 11:05 AM on February 3, 2016 [16 favorites]
Before my post gets deleted (because I’m smedleyman after all, a macho, gun owning, heartless pig), let me say I agree, wholeheartedly agree that misogynist harassing comments are completely wrong and that there should be something done about it. But let me also apologize for having feelings of anger against misogyny and harassment and wanting to do things to address it. I’ve taken practical steps to defend free speech/stop intimidation with issues that have real world analogues to online hate such as riding with the patriot guard or bikers against child abuse in an attempt to make sure people are treated with dignity and respect. Of course, my doing that seems to represent male aggression, and is of course, wrong.
I’m sorry for totally agreeing, in the wrong way, that this is wrong. And I’m sorry it’s in a way I’ll never understand and shouldn’t empathize with too much, because I’m not part of the victimized group.
I know I’m totally doing it wrong. In a meta-way, this comment is totally wrong. And I know whatever I say that’s remotely sympathetic and looks like it’s aimed at taking serious, practical steps to address it are instantly wrong and/or wrongly worded.
But I have no idea what to say or do because I’ve said and done a number of things on Metafilter before to support the very simple and clear idea that online harassment is wrong. And while those comments range from the emotional and visceral and/or offensively worded to lucid and purely practical and logical to downright unintelligible (whether due to meds or poor communication skills), the same core concept remained:
You’re not alone. I’m on your side.
And the answer has always been the same whatever the wording:
We don’t want you on our side.
So, yeah, ok. Why should you?
Because I genuinely don’t know what to do. I don’t know much about twitter. Don’t tweet anything. I suspect they have an abuse policy, and clearly there should be some moderation. Moderation hasn’t worked much for getting my alternative POV out though. I know how to shift power and protect people in the real world. Some people seem to take comfort in that and that’s made me happy. I have no actual idea how to go about stopping other people from harassing others online though. I don’t. And far from taking comfort from someone willing to go that distance, it’s actively reviled. Wrong thing. Wrong way. Don't care where your heart is.
And hey, results do count.
It makes me think y’all are right, wtf good am I?
If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t post. Again, sorry for posting wrong. I don’t know what to say. Other than I care.
And it gets me nothing but grief and acrimony.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:07 AM on February 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
I’m sorry for totally agreeing, in the wrong way, that this is wrong. And I’m sorry it’s in a way I’ll never understand and shouldn’t empathize with too much, because I’m not part of the victimized group.
I know I’m totally doing it wrong. In a meta-way, this comment is totally wrong. And I know whatever I say that’s remotely sympathetic and looks like it’s aimed at taking serious, practical steps to address it are instantly wrong and/or wrongly worded.
But I have no idea what to say or do because I’ve said and done a number of things on Metafilter before to support the very simple and clear idea that online harassment is wrong. And while those comments range from the emotional and visceral and/or offensively worded to lucid and purely practical and logical to downright unintelligible (whether due to meds or poor communication skills), the same core concept remained:
You’re not alone. I’m on your side.
And the answer has always been the same whatever the wording:
We don’t want you on our side.
So, yeah, ok. Why should you?
Because I genuinely don’t know what to do. I don’t know much about twitter. Don’t tweet anything. I suspect they have an abuse policy, and clearly there should be some moderation. Moderation hasn’t worked much for getting my alternative POV out though. I know how to shift power and protect people in the real world. Some people seem to take comfort in that and that’s made me happy. I have no actual idea how to go about stopping other people from harassing others online though. I don’t. And far from taking comfort from someone willing to go that distance, it’s actively reviled. Wrong thing. Wrong way. Don't care where your heart is.
And hey, results do count.
It makes me think y’all are right, wtf good am I?
If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t post. Again, sorry for posting wrong. I don’t know what to say. Other than I care.
And it gets me nothing but grief and acrimony.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:07 AM on February 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:07 AM on February 3, 2016
posted by Smedleyman at 11:07 AM on February 3, 2016
I shouldn't have said these guys "can't" just move on in my first comment, because of course it's a choice they make. They can, but they don't.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:09 AM on February 3, 2016
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:09 AM on February 3, 2016
Have public burger-eaters been attacked recently or something? I think I am missing the reference here.
Eating a burger in public is messy. I recall worrying about doing it on dates back in the days when sexism was more acceptable and I internalized it more.
Also, re this excellent and well written article, I promptly retweeted it. I think ALL of us need to call out and shame this kind of harassment. It shouldn't be on the woman who is on the receiving end to endure it alone. I am hoping for the day when we all start calling out the men who harass women on the street, too.
posted by bearwife at 11:09 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Eating a burger in public is messy. I recall worrying about doing it on dates back in the days when sexism was more acceptable and I internalized it more.
Also, re this excellent and well written article, I promptly retweeted it. I think ALL of us need to call out and shame this kind of harassment. It shouldn't be on the woman who is on the receiving end to endure it alone. I am hoping for the day when we all start calling out the men who harass women on the street, too.
posted by bearwife at 11:09 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, I am a big fan of you and your enormous protective heart, smedleyman.
posted by bearwife at 11:11 AM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bearwife at 11:11 AM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Have public burger-eaters been attacked recently or something? I think I am missing the reference here. Is she referring to being fat-shamed?
It's a joke about how every choice women make, especially ones that might make us unappealing to men like admitting that we eat food, is wrong and shameful.
thanks
posted by thelonius at 11:14 AM on February 3, 2016
It's a joke about how every choice women make, especially ones that might make us unappealing to men like admitting that we eat food, is wrong and shameful.
thanks
posted by thelonius at 11:14 AM on February 3, 2016
Before my post gets deleted (because I’m smedleyman after all, a macho, gun owning, heartless pig)
[n.b. as much as I appreciate the intentionally meta nature of your comment, please note that actively proposing that your comment may/will get deleted puts the mods in a super shitty position and it'd be great if folks who don't want shit to get deleted wouldn't literally talk about it in the comment they're concerned about.]
posted by cortex at 11:16 AM on February 3, 2016 [30 favorites]
[n.b. as much as I appreciate the intentionally meta nature of your comment, please note that actively proposing that your comment may/will get deleted puts the mods in a super shitty position and it'd be great if folks who don't want shit to get deleted wouldn't literally talk about it in the comment they're concerned about.]
posted by cortex at 11:16 AM on February 3, 2016 [30 favorites]
Smedleyman, I feel your emotional tension. That said, does this conversation need to center around your feelings right now?
posted by sciatrix at 11:19 AM on February 3, 2016 [49 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 11:19 AM on February 3, 2016 [49 favorites]
It's a joke about how every choice women make, especially ones that might make us unappealing to men like admitting that we eat food, is wrong and shameful.
all cheeses r good
wine is fucking delicious
i speak 15 languages in varying proficiency from "crappy" to "better than most natives"
shit i also studied math
and music
and astrophysics because i felt like it (wut i met alan guth he ruled)
christ i also remember enough chemistry to look like a dweeb
right and bicycling
plus a bit of contact sport
OH SHIT I'M A WOMAN IT'S ALL WRONG
but dieting is seen as bitchy
not drinking is seen as pissy
ur supposed to giggle - in any language it works, duh because that way you're not actually talking haha who wants to listen to women talk i mean have u heard their voices omg
math lol yeah right
sports? bahahaha yoga then we can laugh at how silly women look in yoga pants and omg soccer moms i mean it's not like women play soccer haha no just soccer moms they r teh eye-rolling things
wrong wrong it's all wrong u r woman u r wrong whatever you do it is WRONG
and dumb
don't forget dumb
then we'll send u death threats and call you out for exaggerating
and making it up
then we won't believe you when you say what everyone already knows because duh u r woman u r wrong
what was that about the Chinese curse of having an interesting life? might as well just have been "be a woman"
posted by fraula at 11:35 AM on February 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
all cheeses r good
wine is fucking delicious
i speak 15 languages in varying proficiency from "crappy" to "better than most natives"
shit i also studied math
and music
and astrophysics because i felt like it (wut i met alan guth he ruled)
christ i also remember enough chemistry to look like a dweeb
right and bicycling
plus a bit of contact sport
OH SHIT I'M A WOMAN IT'S ALL WRONG
but dieting is seen as bitchy
not drinking is seen as pissy
ur supposed to giggle - in any language it works, duh because that way you're not actually talking haha who wants to listen to women talk i mean have u heard their voices omg
math lol yeah right
sports? bahahaha yoga then we can laugh at how silly women look in yoga pants and omg soccer moms i mean it's not like women play soccer haha no just soccer moms they r teh eye-rolling things
wrong wrong it's all wrong u r woman u r wrong whatever you do it is WRONG
and dumb
don't forget dumb
then we'll send u death threats and call you out for exaggerating
and making it up
then we won't believe you when you say what everyone already knows because duh u r woman u r wrong
what was that about the Chinese curse of having an interesting life? might as well just have been "be a woman"
posted by fraula at 11:35 AM on February 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
Here's what I don't understand: In a better world, this article would end either with a link to a new short-blogging service with better controls, and a campaign to mass-migrate from Twitter to it, or a set of demands for Twitter to implement and a campaign to pressure decisionmakers to implement them.
(I imagine something like a series of Creative-Commons-style reply policies. User chooses the level of engagement they are comfortable receiving. Post is tagged with appropriate icon. Violate the reply policy and you are penalized or booted. Obviously, there is more to it, but let's assume the problem can be massively reduced technically. Because it can. )
Building a shiny new platform is easier than begging someone else to change theirs, and bonus! Someone will get rich doing it. So why isn't it here yet? It shouldn't be hard to get a subset of celebrities to stop tweeting on Twitter and make Shiny their exclusive home. Their fanbases will follow, and so will most decent people who are sick of this crap and advertisers who desperately don't want their products associated with this kind of sociopathic behavior and then Twitter will be left to the dregs.
This should've happened a long time ago already. Why hasn't it?
posted by Missiles K. Monster at 11:46 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
(I imagine something like a series of Creative-Commons-style reply policies. User chooses the level of engagement they are comfortable receiving. Post is tagged with appropriate icon. Violate the reply policy and you are penalized or booted. Obviously, there is more to it, but let's assume the problem can be massively reduced technically. Because it can. )
Building a shiny new platform is easier than begging someone else to change theirs, and bonus! Someone will get rich doing it. So why isn't it here yet? It shouldn't be hard to get a subset of celebrities to stop tweeting on Twitter and make Shiny their exclusive home. Their fanbases will follow, and so will most decent people who are sick of this crap and advertisers who desperately don't want their products associated with this kind of sociopathic behavior and then Twitter will be left to the dregs.
This should've happened a long time ago already. Why hasn't it?
posted by Missiles K. Monster at 11:46 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Because this isn't bad enough to spur a mass exodus. Without a critical mass of new community, the platform will fail--too few people cannot maintain enough conversation to make the new community platform sustainable, since without interesting content no one new will join it.
So any single person wanting to leave has limited power to change things, especially on the scale we're talking with Twitter. Someone with a lot of power and a huge following might be able to manage it, or several someones, but they would be paying a large amount of social capital to do so.
posted by sciatrix at 11:51 AM on February 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
So any single person wanting to leave has limited power to change things, especially on the scale we're talking with Twitter. Someone with a lot of power and a huge following might be able to manage it, or several someones, but they would be paying a large amount of social capital to do so.
posted by sciatrix at 11:51 AM on February 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, i am not proud of myself but I signed up for an account just to rip that asshole a new one.
Yeah, well, I'm proud of you, Empress.
posted by straight at 12:04 PM on February 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah, well, I'm proud of you, Empress.
posted by straight at 12:04 PM on February 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
A better question may be, why is Twitter not doing much at all about this shit?
Then again, considering that when I flagged nazi imagery on twitter I didn’t see any action taken there, I’m not shocked at their inaction here but I do wonder, what are they thinking - even Facebook at least tries to do better.
It’s wrong to take it as a given that this should happen because of the nature of Twitter or whatever - it is not a public square, it’s a platform owned by a corporation and they have the means and the responsibilities to deal with crap like overt harassment and threats. Aren’t there legal responsibilities, too? They’re awful at dealing with this and they should be made to be less awful.
posted by bitteschoen at 12:07 PM on February 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Then again, considering that when I flagged nazi imagery on twitter I didn’t see any action taken there, I’m not shocked at their inaction here but I do wonder, what are they thinking - even Facebook at least tries to do better.
It’s wrong to take it as a given that this should happen because of the nature of Twitter or whatever - it is not a public square, it’s a platform owned by a corporation and they have the means and the responsibilities to deal with crap like overt harassment and threats. Aren’t there legal responsibilities, too? They’re awful at dealing with this and they should be made to be less awful.
posted by bitteschoen at 12:07 PM on February 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Which is hilarious (not) coming from dudes who are so goddamn thin-skinned ...
This is the big, jaw-dropping thing that I just cannot comprehend - that it's the people (usually men) who accuse women/minorities/gays of being "too sensitive" are the most overly- sensitive, delicate, & insecure people out there.
Or rather, the thing I can't comprehend is how this is not blindingly obvious to so many people.
posted by kanewai at 12:10 PM on February 3, 2016 [26 favorites]
This is the big, jaw-dropping thing that I just cannot comprehend - that it's the people (usually men) who accuse women/minorities/gays of being "too sensitive" are the most overly- sensitive, delicate, & insecure people out there.
Or rather, the thing I can't comprehend is how this is not blindingly obvious to so many people.
posted by kanewai at 12:10 PM on February 3, 2016 [26 favorites]
Without a critical mass of new community, the platform will fail--too few people cannot maintain enough conversation to make the new community platform sustainable, since without interesting content no one new will join it.
Yeah, no one remembered ello three months later. No one remembered Peach three days later. I don't think technology can solve this problem, honestly. Even Facebook-powered comment sections that are (theoretically) tied to your real name don't shame people into not saying terrible things. Thinking more technology will solve the problem is like thinking more guns will lead to less mass shootings.
posted by desjardins at 12:22 PM on February 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, no one remembered ello three months later. No one remembered Peach three days later. I don't think technology can solve this problem, honestly. Even Facebook-powered comment sections that are (theoretically) tied to your real name don't shame people into not saying terrible things. Thinking more technology will solve the problem is like thinking more guns will lead to less mass shootings.
posted by desjardins at 12:22 PM on February 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
that it's the people (usually men) who accuse women/minorities/gays of being "too sensitive" are the most overly- sensitive, delicate, & insecure people out there.
"If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part yourself. What isn't part ourselves doesn't disturb us." - Hermann Hesse
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:25 PM on February 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
"If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part yourself. What isn't part ourselves doesn't disturb us." - Hermann Hesse
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:25 PM on February 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
But it also feels like it isn't accomplishing anything, or, at least, won't do anything to stop the aggressive serial offenders. It's possible that it communicates to the larger readership that men as a whole don't agree with this, and possible that it communicates to the women who are suffering abuse that men are willing to take on some of the chore of addressing this.
Emptying a pool with a spoon is a frustrating experience, but I think that's what we're doing when we push back on the jackholes and play a part in making this behavior socially unacceptable. All we're really doing is giving the person who farted loudly on the subway a furrowed brow. It doesn't clear the stink, it doesn't help with the people who have worked themselves into a self-righteous joy in transgressing. It doesn't fix one on one offenses.
It's not the whole fight. It's like the one we had in the 80s, shifting the culture away from where white people could say ni-CLANG[nsfw] in public without too much fear of trouble, so long as there was not much melanin in sight. Now that's a word that halts conversation in many or most circles. Making that talk less okay didn't fix racism, but it changed the world in a positive if incomplete way. Getting there took a lot of people raising an eyebrow or saying "I don't like that word" and other spooning.
posted by phearlez at 12:30 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Emptying a pool with a spoon is a frustrating experience, but I think that's what we're doing when we push back on the jackholes and play a part in making this behavior socially unacceptable. All we're really doing is giving the person who farted loudly on the subway a furrowed brow. It doesn't clear the stink, it doesn't help with the people who have worked themselves into a self-righteous joy in transgressing. It doesn't fix one on one offenses.
It's not the whole fight. It's like the one we had in the 80s, shifting the culture away from where white people could say ni-CLANG[nsfw] in public without too much fear of trouble, so long as there was not much melanin in sight. Now that's a word that halts conversation in many or most circles. Making that talk less okay didn't fix racism, but it changed the world in a positive if incomplete way. Getting there took a lot of people raising an eyebrow or saying "I don't like that word" and other spooning.
posted by phearlez at 12:30 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, to a very real extent, that fact that no one has successfully absorbed Twitter's non-horrid userbase onto a new platform via mass migration is why Twitter hasn't had to do better on this stuff. Inducing an entire massive, dispersed userbase, many of whom are sufficiently untouched by the grossness involved that they don't really have a reason to care, onto a new platform isn't as easy as building something and saying "we're here!".
I don't know that anyone's done a serious job of doing all that and also saying "...and we're gonna lock Twitter's harassment bullshit down hard, and here's a clear and coherent and well-funded plan to actually do so" and I'd like to think that could make a difference, but it's hardly a guarantee. The folks who would respond strongly to that are a smaller cohort than the folks who either don't care or care enough to sympathize but not to cut off one of their primary social media conduits.
Twitter can not-improve because, well, what are you gonna do? Which is utterly lousy and after this long pretty embarrassing even if the problem is a hard one. At this point it's not so much that they haven't solved the problem as it is that they haven't succeeded at making it look like they are trying.
posted by cortex at 12:30 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't know that anyone's done a serious job of doing all that and also saying "...and we're gonna lock Twitter's harassment bullshit down hard, and here's a clear and coherent and well-funded plan to actually do so" and I'd like to think that could make a difference, but it's hardly a guarantee. The folks who would respond strongly to that are a smaller cohort than the folks who either don't care or care enough to sympathize but not to cut off one of their primary social media conduits.
Twitter can not-improve because, well, what are you gonna do? Which is utterly lousy and after this long pretty embarrassing even if the problem is a hard one. At this point it's not so much that they haven't solved the problem as it is that they haven't succeeded at making it look like they are trying.
posted by cortex at 12:30 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
...why is Twitter not doing much at all about this shit?
From Twitter's about page:
320 Million monthly active users.
4300 employees.
That equals roughly 74,000 users per employee. I don't know about you, but I don't think there is a means of monitoring even a fraction of that user base without going mad. Oh, also add in that Twitter is used by people using 35+ different languages. This would be a logistics nightmare. The next option is going to be word filters, but then you run into the censorship argument, which, even if legal and fully within the rights of the private company to do so, has an unfortunate side effect of tainting their image and brand, costing them potential users and customers (i.e. ad sales).
Just thinking about the scale of something like Twitter should give you pause when thinking there is some easy solution to the social problem. The best solution is for society to change to the point where this kind of behavior has much more serious consequences for people who behave abusively. Unfortunately, that will likely never happen, as that's not how culture works.
What would be interesting, instead of a service that calls the abusers spouse or mother or whatever, would be something that just reroutes the threats and heated exchange to another abusive asshole and just let them yell at each other (I have seen something like this happen IRL, where one drunk asshole at a bar was causing a scene on one end of the bar, and another drunk asshole was causing a similar scene on the other end of the bar, and instead of throwing them out, the bartenders and bouncers just pointed them at each other and made space for them to clumsily collide with each other).
posted by daq at 12:31 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
From Twitter's about page:
320 Million monthly active users.
4300 employees.
That equals roughly 74,000 users per employee. I don't know about you, but I don't think there is a means of monitoring even a fraction of that user base without going mad. Oh, also add in that Twitter is used by people using 35+ different languages. This would be a logistics nightmare. The next option is going to be word filters, but then you run into the censorship argument, which, even if legal and fully within the rights of the private company to do so, has an unfortunate side effect of tainting their image and brand, costing them potential users and customers (i.e. ad sales).
Just thinking about the scale of something like Twitter should give you pause when thinking there is some easy solution to the social problem. The best solution is for society to change to the point where this kind of behavior has much more serious consequences for people who behave abusively. Unfortunately, that will likely never happen, as that's not how culture works.
What would be interesting, instead of a service that calls the abusers spouse or mother or whatever, would be something that just reroutes the threats and heated exchange to another abusive asshole and just let them yell at each other (I have seen something like this happen IRL, where one drunk asshole at a bar was causing a scene on one end of the bar, and another drunk asshole was causing a similar scene on the other end of the bar, and instead of throwing them out, the bartenders and bouncers just pointed them at each other and made space for them to clumsily collide with each other).
posted by daq at 12:31 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is there some reason Twitter should be required to do more than provide block and mute functions? You get one of these tweets, hit mute, and then you never, ever hear from that person again. I agree, it would be far, far better if there were a way to stop these people from being assholes in the first place, but they will always exist. In real life we mostly deal with these people by having nothing to do with them, rather than having some authority impose limitations or restrictions or otherwise force them to reduce their assholish behaviour. Isn't the mute and block options the Twitter equivalent?
The few, very few times I've had to deal with even the mildest form of this, I've found mute is an awesome, simple response. But I've never dealt with this level of it, so I'd like to know the differences.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:36 PM on February 3, 2016
The few, very few times I've had to deal with even the mildest form of this, I've found mute is an awesome, simple response. But I've never dealt with this level of it, so I'd like to know the differences.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:36 PM on February 3, 2016
the people (usually men) who accuse women/minorities/gays of being "too sensitive" are the most overly- sensitive, delicate, & insecure people out there.
There's a strong element of pots and kettles here, the precariousness, unease and greatest pleasures of performative masculinity requires accusations of the things they themselves are most scared of and prone to, being sensitive.
posted by bonehead at 12:40 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's a strong element of pots and kettles here, the precariousness, unease and greatest pleasures of performative masculinity requires accusations of the things they themselves are most scared of and prone to, being sensitive.
posted by bonehead at 12:40 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Respectfully, GhostintheMachine, the fact that you've only dealt with the mildest forms of this is really evident. You're describing the best case scenario, when an abusive person is not highly motivated to hurt the person he is trying to abuse.
Women are way more likely to deal with situations where, when an asshole encounters a barrier to attacking them, he immediately goes "how can I circumvent this barrier?" He's blocked? Okay, time to make a new account--or write a bot to create hundreds. He's muted? Time to tell his friends to shout harder. You need to actually put real teeth behind enforcing these laws and rules if you want them to be respected, and those do not exist on Twitter.
posted by sciatrix at 12:41 PM on February 3, 2016 [25 favorites]
Women are way more likely to deal with situations where, when an asshole encounters a barrier to attacking them, he immediately goes "how can I circumvent this barrier?" He's blocked? Okay, time to make a new account--or write a bot to create hundreds. He's muted? Time to tell his friends to shout harder. You need to actually put real teeth behind enforcing these laws and rules if you want them to be respected, and those do not exist on Twitter.
posted by sciatrix at 12:41 PM on February 3, 2016 [25 favorites]
GhostintheMachine: "The few, very few times I've had to deal with even the mildest form of this, I've found mute is an awesome, simple response. But I've never dealt with this level of it, so I'd like to know the differences."
The equivalent mental model here would be if instead of Bayesian spam filters, you only had the ability to block individual senders. Some people only get 1 or 2 pieces of spam per day, others get hundreds.
posted by mhum at 12:44 PM on February 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
The equivalent mental model here would be if instead of Bayesian spam filters, you only had the ability to block individual senders. Some people only get 1 or 2 pieces of spam per day, others get hundreds.
posted by mhum at 12:44 PM on February 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
You get one of these tweets, hit mute, and then you never, ever hear from that person again.
Hahahahahahahaahahaahahaahahahaa.
This doesn't even work with people trying to troll @dog_rates, an account that posts pictures of dogs. You think it has any effect on people who actually want to hurt women who dare to say words online?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:46 PM on February 3, 2016 [18 favorites]
Hahahahahahahaahahaahahaahahahaa.
This doesn't even work with people trying to troll @dog_rates, an account that posts pictures of dogs. You think it has any effect on people who actually want to hurt women who dare to say words online?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:46 PM on February 3, 2016 [18 favorites]
The next option is going to be word filters, but then you run into the censorship argument, which, even if legal and fully within the rights of the private company to do so, has an unfortunate side effect of tainting their image and brand, costing them potential users and customers (i.e. ad sales).
Twitter's user base is stagnant, they don't make money, their stock is tanking and the massive turnover in upper management has left them adrift. They don't know what to do and no matter what they do it's going to be wrong to a sizable chunk of users. It's just an all around bad time to be a Twitter executive or investor. Expect Twitter to just run around like a chicken with its head cut off for the foreseeable future.
posted by MikeMc at 12:53 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Twitter's user base is stagnant, they don't make money, their stock is tanking and the massive turnover in upper management has left them adrift. They don't know what to do and no matter what they do it's going to be wrong to a sizable chunk of users. It's just an all around bad time to be a Twitter executive or investor. Expect Twitter to just run around like a chicken with its head cut off for the foreseeable future.
posted by MikeMc at 12:53 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
The only way to really avoid abuse as a woman on Twitter is to lock your account. Admittedly, it doesn't stop trolls and assholes from talking shit about you to others on Twitter but it prevents them coming at you directly. A lot of amazing feminists online still keep their accounts open and I think they're incredible for doing so. I sometimes feel like a coward in that I finally locked mine, but at least that space feels a little safer.
posted by Kitteh at 12:58 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Kitteh at 12:58 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
If there were a user-controlled platform for targeted groups to retreat to we could call it ... Diaspora?
posted by clew at 12:58 PM on February 3, 2016
posted by clew at 12:58 PM on February 3, 2016
You get one of these tweets, hit mute, and then you never, ever hear from that person again
Why that doesn't work:
Infinite egg accounts that harassers keep on hand for when they are blocked
Abusive comments can be retweeted to you by people you still follow
Abusers can buy ads that show up in your feed
If you're highly visible, you would have to spend all day, every day, blocking people
And that final one puts the emotional labor of solving harassment squarely on the shoulder of the one being harassed.
posted by maxsparber at 12:59 PM on February 3, 2016 [18 favorites]
Why that doesn't work:
Infinite egg accounts that harassers keep on hand for when they are blocked
Abusive comments can be retweeted to you by people you still follow
Abusers can buy ads that show up in your feed
If you're highly visible, you would have to spend all day, every day, blocking people
And that final one puts the emotional labor of solving harassment squarely on the shoulder of the one being harassed.
posted by maxsparber at 12:59 PM on February 3, 2016 [18 favorites]
You get one of these tweets, hit mute, and then you never, ever hear from that person again.
Ok, now someone's posted your address, a photo, and a photo of a gun. You missed this because you had them muted (Or you didn't because you know these are regular things that happen without any action being taken against them, so you check via alternate means and the mute/block is ineffectual). (Example-you, not specifically-you)
What do you do? Police won't listen to you, Twitter won't care.
posted by CrystalDave at 1:22 PM on February 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
Ok, now someone's posted your address, a photo, and a photo of a gun. You missed this because you had them muted (Or you didn't because you know these are regular things that happen without any action being taken against them, so you check via alternate means and the mute/block is ineffectual). (Example-you, not specifically-you)
What do you do? Police won't listen to you, Twitter won't care.
posted by CrystalDave at 1:22 PM on February 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
If there were a user-controlled platform for targeted groups to retreat to we could call it ... Diaspora?
Right, clew, because the real trouble here is that women want to participate in public life.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:27 PM on February 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
Right, clew, because the real trouble here is that women want to participate in public life.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:27 PM on February 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
The next option is going to be word filtersBetter AI will fix this! Imagine having a digital personal assistant that goes through all your messages at lightening speed, recognizes the ones that are worthless to you and automatically sends a notification to the sender informing them their message has been "unapproved". AI will save us from ourselves. Or destroy us all, Skynet style. Whichever.
posted by 0cm at 1:30 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Just thinking about the scale of something like Twitter should give you pause when thinking there is some easy solution to the social problem.
Yeah I didn’t imply it was easy and I’m well aware of the scale of Twitter, I don’t need to read the stats in their about page to know the scale we’re talking about, but they do have a flag system, they do have a policy, they just don’t do much about it. And don’t even seem to be trying, indeed.
The best solution is for society to change to the point where this kind of behavior has much more serious consequences for people who behave abusively. Unfortunately, that will likely never happen, as that's not how culture works.
Sure, but I disagree on that equivalence society = twitter, not because I think society is better, but because there is an extra element in the platform offered by Twitter that creates and favours this kind of phenomenon.
Of course, angry drunks in bars starting fight, assholes insulting women in the streets, harassment at work, etc. all these exist independently but there is something in the way Twitter works that attracts that kind of trolling in a way that wouldn’t have an exact correspondent in real life.
In the example here, say the author of the article, Alison, had said her joke on a radio programme - and imagine the radio station took calls from listeners too and broadcast them live during the programme, they’d still have a filtering system and people would need to call from their phone, and speak with their voices on a radio station, I’m sure you’d still get assholes but you wouldn’t get a flood of them, in every aspect, technically and logistically and pyschologically, it’s all different.
Even if she’d said her joke while doing an event in a public square or park, say, with a crowd of people in front of her - people would be physically free to insult her right there and then but you know, it takes another level of involvement to actually stand up and insult someone speaking while you’re in the middle of a crowd and you can instantly be held accountable for what you say.
A lot of these online assholes wouldn’t dare to do that in real life. (Thankfully). A platform like Twitter doesn’t just make it easier to do what they do, it kind of creates and perpetuates the phenomenon in itself.
I’m saying this as someone who appreciates using Twitter - mostly passively as a reader - for media content and links, so not bashing Twitter as such or saying it only creates women-hating trolls, far from it. I’m just saying, they ARE already supposed to have a system to deal with this, at the very least respond to flagging, but they don’t seem to care, in practice. And the mute button is a joke, it’s not a solution.
The serious consequences need to be embedded in the platform itself, first and foremost. Let society figure out the rest, but first figure out how to deal with it within your system, because that is their own responsibility. How they go about it is not something I or you are supposed to tell them, unless they pay us to do it, really - they’re the ones who are supposed to figure it out.
Other even bigger platforms are doing it, at least dealing with the issues, overtly acknowledging them. There’s an astonishing level of indifference from Twitter by comparison.
posted by bitteschoen at 1:33 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah I didn’t imply it was easy and I’m well aware of the scale of Twitter, I don’t need to read the stats in their about page to know the scale we’re talking about, but they do have a flag system, they do have a policy, they just don’t do much about it. And don’t even seem to be trying, indeed.
The best solution is for society to change to the point where this kind of behavior has much more serious consequences for people who behave abusively. Unfortunately, that will likely never happen, as that's not how culture works.
Sure, but I disagree on that equivalence society = twitter, not because I think society is better, but because there is an extra element in the platform offered by Twitter that creates and favours this kind of phenomenon.
Of course, angry drunks in bars starting fight, assholes insulting women in the streets, harassment at work, etc. all these exist independently but there is something in the way Twitter works that attracts that kind of trolling in a way that wouldn’t have an exact correspondent in real life.
In the example here, say the author of the article, Alison, had said her joke on a radio programme - and imagine the radio station took calls from listeners too and broadcast them live during the programme, they’d still have a filtering system and people would need to call from their phone, and speak with their voices on a radio station, I’m sure you’d still get assholes but you wouldn’t get a flood of them, in every aspect, technically and logistically and pyschologically, it’s all different.
Even if she’d said her joke while doing an event in a public square or park, say, with a crowd of people in front of her - people would be physically free to insult her right there and then but you know, it takes another level of involvement to actually stand up and insult someone speaking while you’re in the middle of a crowd and you can instantly be held accountable for what you say.
A lot of these online assholes wouldn’t dare to do that in real life. (Thankfully). A platform like Twitter doesn’t just make it easier to do what they do, it kind of creates and perpetuates the phenomenon in itself.
I’m saying this as someone who appreciates using Twitter - mostly passively as a reader - for media content and links, so not bashing Twitter as such or saying it only creates women-hating trolls, far from it. I’m just saying, they ARE already supposed to have a system to deal with this, at the very least respond to flagging, but they don’t seem to care, in practice. And the mute button is a joke, it’s not a solution.
The serious consequences need to be embedded in the platform itself, first and foremost. Let society figure out the rest, but first figure out how to deal with it within your system, because that is their own responsibility. How they go about it is not something I or you are supposed to tell them, unless they pay us to do it, really - they’re the ones who are supposed to figure it out.
Other even bigger platforms are doing it, at least dealing with the issues, overtly acknowledging them. There’s an astonishing level of indifference from Twitter by comparison.
posted by bitteschoen at 1:33 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
BlockTogether.org is a pretty good first line of defense for Twitter specifically. I recommend that everyone start with a nice blocklist of trolls, like @wilw's, and to make sure they've set the "Block young accounts (< 7 days old) that mention you." and "Block accounts with < 15 followers that mention you." settings.
It certainly doesn't prevent the toxic miasma, but it helps.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:37 PM on February 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
It certainly doesn't prevent the toxic miasma, but it helps.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:37 PM on February 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh, and @eevee has cobbled up some nice AdBlockPlus format rules to silence your notifications/mentions panel. It's a little on the technical side of things, but a clever hack. https://gist.github.com/eevee/55426e5856f5825317b1
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:42 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:42 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
AI will save us from ourselves. Or destroy us all, Skynet style. Whichever.
Every day the two seem, more and more, to be the same damn thing.
posted by Seamus at 1:42 PM on February 3, 2016
Every day the two seem, more and more, to be the same damn thing.
posted by Seamus at 1:42 PM on February 3, 2016
That idiot who responded to the post annoyed me so much I couldn't even finish reading his pathetic little mansplaining. Whatever, dude.
posted by immlass at 1:53 PM on February 3, 2016
posted by immlass at 1:53 PM on February 3, 2016
I recommend that everyone start with a nice blocklist of trolls, like @wilw's
For some reason I find it interesting that Wheaton doesn't block Milo.
posted by MikeMc at 2:04 PM on February 3, 2016
For some reason I find it interesting that Wheaton doesn't block Milo.
posted by MikeMc at 2:04 PM on February 3, 2016
> For some reason I find it interesting that Wheaton doesn't block Milo
Who is Milo?
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:29 PM on February 3, 2016
Who is Milo?
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:29 PM on February 3, 2016
Who is Milo?
Milo Yiannopoulos (@nero if you prefer). Breitbart tech editor, promoter of "Feminism is Cancer" and the first person I'm aware of to unverified by Twitter.
posted by MikeMc at 2:38 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Milo Yiannopoulos (@nero if you prefer). Breitbart tech editor, promoter of "Feminism is Cancer" and the first person I'm aware of to unverified by Twitter.
posted by MikeMc at 2:38 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Milo is also the pet journalist of gamergate. The one thing positive I could say about Milo is that he's a professional troll who's milking those gator idiots for everything he can. But, yeah, he's a nasty and terrible human who should be blocked in all facets of online life. I'm a little surprised Twitter hasn't blocked him yet, especially after he recently targeted yet another woman with his personal hate squad.
posted by honestcoyote at 3:47 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by honestcoyote at 3:47 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, no, Xyanthilous, the real problem is threatening, entitled sexism. But it doesn't help that so many people now think its normal for discourse to be mediated through a few companies, whose interests cannot be our own. There's a user-run, distributed, open social network called Diaspora (or diaspora*) that tries to fix this, although it turns out the real problem is still the hard one to fix.
posted by clew at 4:04 PM on February 3, 2016
posted by clew at 4:04 PM on February 3, 2016
....holy crap the guy who mansplained just responded to my comment, and APOPLOGIZED FOR WHAT HE SAID.
...guys I think I have superpowers.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:05 PM on February 3, 2016 [41 favorites]
...guys I think I have superpowers.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:05 PM on February 3, 2016 [41 favorites]
Empress, could you copy what you wrote?
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 5:02 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 5:02 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
And then, this happened: Parody Account Mocks Twitter for Not Suspending Harassers, Gets Suspended
Crazy...
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 5:14 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Crazy...
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 5:14 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Milo did get his verified status removed last month, which caused all his followers to lose their shit, in a plot point cribbed from an incomprehensible, acid-inspired satire of a William Gibson novel.
posted by maxsparber at 5:18 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by maxsparber at 5:18 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
The comments over at Medium are getting steadily worse. This is my surprised face.
posted by bakerina at 5:45 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bakerina at 5:45 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
And yeah, I should have just responded with, “I’m sorry, I’ll do my part to call out the men that are doing this”Empress, chapeau! Nice job.
I didn’t. For that I’m sorry.
(this is what EmpressCallipygos wrote)
posted by bitteschoen at 6:08 PM on February 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
That's excellent. It gets so you think everybody is just going to double down on being shitty and privileged. It's nice to be reminded that sometimes people listen, change their minds, and try to do better.
posted by maxsparber at 6:42 PM on February 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 6:42 PM on February 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
The comments over at Medium are getting steadily worse. This is my surprised face.
Well, let's see if I can go two for two. In his response to me, my new friend said: "You have my word. If I catch anyone acting this way on Twitter, facebook, or anywhere else, I absolutely will."
I just told him that conveniently, if he scrolled down on Allion's post's comments, he would find ample opportunity to make good his word.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:24 PM on February 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
Well, let's see if I can go two for two. In his response to me, my new friend said: "You have my word. If I catch anyone acting this way on Twitter, facebook, or anywhere else, I absolutely will."
I just told him that conveniently, if he scrolled down on Allion's post's comments, he would find ample opportunity to make good his word.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:24 PM on February 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
Sometimes I am so ashamed to be the same species as these animals.
Then I have a cake for you.
Seriously, I love this cake so much I think it needs to be posted on every single "men hate women" anything, ever.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:26 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Then I have a cake for you.
Seriously, I love this cake so much I think it needs to be posted on every single "men hate women" anything, ever.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:26 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Better, related, unbelievably ironic news. Oh we had to cancel/hide because we were afraid for our safety. We were afraid that a world that views us as undesirables would look the other way when we were harmed. Douchebag, heal thyself.
posted by phearlez at 9:04 AM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 9:04 AM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
One thing about the "pro rape rally" plans that I kind of dug was that a womens' boxing club announced that they were planning to go crash the rally in their neighborhood, right after they did one of their regular rounds of training. This announcement was accompanied by a group photo of all of them suited up in their workout gear and gloves and looking badass.
(not so) coincidentally, the announcement that the pro-rape guys were cancelling their rally came only about two hours later....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:34 AM on February 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
(not so) coincidentally, the announcement that the pro-rape guys were cancelling their rally came only about two hours later....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:34 AM on February 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Honestly, I think the only thing that is going to make this shit better is other men deriding these men for behaving shamefully. These fuckers are misogynist and they dismiss women who challenge them on that. Why the hell would they listen to women? Men need to take the front line on calling this shit out among their friends.
Thankfully I don't have any friends who spout horrible shit like this (at least not that I know of), but when it comes to the kind of guys who do, in my personal experience as a man, just being another man doesn't suddenly make them more receptive to the idea that they are being worthless piles of shit. More often, it gives them reason to call me a "fag" and then maybe assault me.
I'm not saying you're wrong, you're absolutely right. I'm saying the abuse from the those kind of assholes may not be as severe for men as for women, but there's definitely other men out there who are more than happy to stalk me and harass me and assault me for my thoughts and opinions on them being a piece of shit. I'm saying that I too have fear when it comes to these sort of things, because while I can take some punches, I still prefer to not be assaulted.
Personally, I've had to have sixteen stitches in my cheek and a root canal from the tooth that was killed when I was assaulted by misogynist redneck piece of shit. I didn't even get a chance to press charges, because I was with two friends, and there were six of these guys, and they were ready to rumble, and we were not. We got the hell out of there for good reason, the main being that I immediately needed medical attention. I'm not getting myself send to the hospital over this (which is another reason we need universal healthcare, because I shouldn't be scared of standing up for what I believe in because I can't afford a god damned hospital bill when some testosterone drenched idiot feels like he has to beat the shit out of you to make his point.).
Once again, I am not disagreeing. Rather, I am trying to explain that some men who absolutely agree with you, and find this whole scenario being discussed as absolutely fucking disgusting, often have anxiety and fear of their own when it comes to these kind of men. I think, in a world where people go bankrupt from medical bills (and I'm already heading that direction, without help from violent men) we can't expect people to stand up to violence effectively. I literally fear for my health and well being when it comes to these men. I understand that is pretty pathetic of me to say, since women deal with those fears tenfold when it comes to these men. However, that does not make such fear any less real and palpable.
It strikes me that my writing on this is basically about why my abject cowardice is a good reason for self-preservation and not rocking the boat. It's the truth, though. I'm a "pussy." I'd wager that plenty of men who are of the ilk that would stand up for women are "pussies" as well. As in, we don't want to fight anyone. Fighting sucks. Getting hurt sucks. Can't I just read a book or if we really have to do this have a structured debate based on factual evidence? I just straight can't roll with dealing with the kind of harassment men can dish out. I was the boy who cried a lot, who people assumed was gay because he was more effeminate, and the like. I got beat up, even though I was taller than half the kids my age. And yet we really think a guy like ME standing up to these kind of monsters is going to change their tune somehow? Shame them into being a decent person? Maybe there's some other strong, manly men out there who have the chutzpah to shame these guys, but I just seriously doubt that the shy, meek, mealy-mouthed of us are really going to make a huge difference by calling these guys shitheads. (Especially when they outnumber us)
We've been calling them shitheads since high school. They've been more than happy to treat us like shit and not change a damn thing about themselves in the fifteen years since graduation, and so I don't suddenly think I'm a peer whose opinion they actually give a shit about.
Which leads me to a bigger question: What kind of men actually befriend men like this? These are the kind of men I've been actively avoiding my whole life for similar reasons. If men like these are truly in my group of friends, they certainly don't make it readily apparent. If they did, they are the kind of men I wouldn't be afraid to stand up to.
I don't know, part of me thinks the internet must just make the worst come out of everybody, because not all the men who do this are walking bags of testosterone or are big bullies who beat up other people. It seems like a lot of them are actually more like men like me, shy, bookish, quiet, but when they are allowed to "really speak their mind" online, suddenly they're brash and angry and ready to throw down. I can't help but think of these men as the bullies I was used to growing up, because my experiences with them have mostly been in that category, even as an adult. I am unsure what to do about nerds who pull the same shit, but I guess I would expect myself to be much more willing to stand up to a scrawny guy speaking from behind a set of magic cards than a brawny guy speaking from the tailgate of his pickup.
Honestly, I don't know what to do about any of it anymore, I just know that daily I feel pretty awful about the future of our species and sometimes really think it wouldn't be such a bad thing if we all went extinct.
Sorry for this becoming steadily more depressing. This whole subject makes me depressed as shit. Once again, I absolutely agree with you, social rejection is a good tool for teaching people that their social activities are not welcomed. However, we've also seen how social rejection has just lead some men into violent atrocities instead of teaching them anything about themselves. Plenty of people don't have real capacity for self-reflection without being guided by a counselor.
Not to return to a point that only has passing involvement in the subject, but if we had universal healthcare with good mental health help accessible to all, maybe these men would be able to actually learn from such social rejection? Instead of turning to extremism online? Perhaps social rejection alone won't work when there is more at play than just misogyny, but also potential mental illness? Even without mental illness, how do we ensure they learn the "right" lesson from being rejected by society? Plenty of people just double down on their beliefs when faced with that. We can only do that with some kind of access to comprehensive mental health, accessible to everyone, at no cost. Even then, it won't fully solve the problem, but it will do a hell of a lot more than just men shaming each other, just hoping they grow into a better people.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:27 PM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
Honestly, I think the only thing that is going to make this shit better is other men deriding these men for behaving shamefully. These fuckers are misogynist and they dismiss women who challenge them on that. Why the hell would they listen to women? Men need to take the front line on calling this shit out among their friends.
The issue with this, although it sounds right, is that men who do this and men who would call them out have often self-selected out of the same group of friends to form their own asshole and not asshole groups. The former have plenty of insults like "mangina" for the latter and call them brainwashed SJWs and such.
Barring internet sparring, I generally go months without seeing someone say some dumbass shit like this offline. And when I do, they don't usually want to even talk about it and just dismiss me outright.
9 of the last 10 conversations I've had even tangentially related to this sort of thing where someone was being an ass were on Facebook. I feel like once you're out of college or something, those people just close themselves off with their own likeminded asses. And I mean, I get it. Who would want to hang out with people who disagreed with them that fundamentally?
I guess what it comes down to is if I know anyone in meatspace who would act like this online, they're very quiet about it and only bring it up around known co-conspirators in making the world a shittier place. I'd call them out, but they're like masked batman villains. Like modern racists, they know how to read a room. And the ones who didn't already moved on to go hang out with other vocal assholes(or were moved on).
I haven't really figured out a good solution to this.
posted by emptythought at 12:32 PM on February 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
The issue with this, although it sounds right, is that men who do this and men who would call them out have often self-selected out of the same group of friends to form their own asshole and not asshole groups. The former have plenty of insults like "mangina" for the latter and call them brainwashed SJWs and such.
Barring internet sparring, I generally go months without seeing someone say some dumbass shit like this offline. And when I do, they don't usually want to even talk about it and just dismiss me outright.
9 of the last 10 conversations I've had even tangentially related to this sort of thing where someone was being an ass were on Facebook. I feel like once you're out of college or something, those people just close themselves off with their own likeminded asses. And I mean, I get it. Who would want to hang out with people who disagreed with them that fundamentally?
I guess what it comes down to is if I know anyone in meatspace who would act like this online, they're very quiet about it and only bring it up around known co-conspirators in making the world a shittier place. I'd call them out, but they're like masked batman villains. Like modern racists, they know how to read a room. And the ones who didn't already moved on to go hang out with other vocal assholes(or were moved on).
I haven't really figured out a good solution to this.
posted by emptythought at 12:32 PM on February 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
@emptythought
Kind of funny how we posted nearly the same idea at nearly the same time.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:34 PM on February 4, 2016
Kind of funny how we posted nearly the same idea at nearly the same time.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:34 PM on February 4, 2016
One thing about the "pro rape rally" plans that I kind of dug was that a womens' boxing club announced that they were planning to go crash the rally in their neighborhood, right after they did one of their regular rounds of training.
I am truly glad there are feminists out there who still feel up to challenging these people, and I'm thankful for their work. When I hear words like "pro rape rally," it just makes me feel ill and want to stay inside. I wish there were better options for those of us (men included) who hate what these awful men do but just feel too tired and worn down and not strong enough to be pushing back all the time.
posted by thetortoise at 12:40 PM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am truly glad there are feminists out there who still feel up to challenging these people, and I'm thankful for their work. When I hear words like "pro rape rally," it just makes me feel ill and want to stay inside. I wish there were better options for those of us (men included) who hate what these awful men do but just feel too tired and worn down and not strong enough to be pushing back all the time.
posted by thetortoise at 12:40 PM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or, best case, they act out on the internet and live quietly IRL, with the toxic beliefs peeking out from the edges. Jared & Jacob, notably, lacked male friends other than each other. They also, notably, surprised a lot of the community when their online personas were revealed.
Anecdotal, but one of the men I've met who (covertly) treats women the worst is also very practiced at reciting feminist rhetoric, worked at a DV shelter, and talks about rape and consent all the time, sometimes getting it just a little bit wrong in a revealing way. He has friends and is well-liked, except by the people who know women he has preyed on, and people take his words at face value. It wouldn't surprise me if it were revealed that he was harassing women under a pseudonym. What do you do about someone like that? Short of totally dismantling the patriarchy, I have no idea.
posted by thetortoise at 12:50 PM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
Anecdotal, but one of the men I've met who (covertly) treats women the worst is also very practiced at reciting feminist rhetoric, worked at a DV shelter, and talks about rape and consent all the time, sometimes getting it just a little bit wrong in a revealing way. He has friends and is well-liked, except by the people who know women he has preyed on, and people take his words at face value. It wouldn't surprise me if it were revealed that he was harassing women under a pseudonym. What do you do about someone like that? Short of totally dismantling the patriarchy, I have no idea.
posted by thetortoise at 12:50 PM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm not saying you're wrong, you're absolutely right. I'm saying the abuse from the those kind of assholes may not be as severe for men as for women, but there's definitely other men out there who are more than happy to stalk me and harass me and assault me for my thoughts and opinions on them being a piece of shit. I'm saying that I too have fear when it comes to these sort of things, because while I can take some punches, I still prefer to not be assaulted.
How fortunate for you that you can therefore choose to not engage in the issue at all, then, as opposed to us women who have to deal with harassers whether we talk back to them or not.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:08 AM on February 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
How fortunate for you that you can therefore choose to not engage in the issue at all, then, as opposed to us women who have to deal with harassers whether we talk back to them or not.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:08 AM on February 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
There's a truly magical garden and thriving forest on Crone Island....
posted by amanda at 9:54 AM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by amanda at 9:54 AM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
....watered by man tears
posted by desjardins at 10:42 AM on February 5, 2016
posted by desjardins at 10:42 AM on February 5, 2016
Anecdotal, but one of the men I've met who (covertly) treats women the worst is also very practiced at reciting feminist rhetoric, worked at a DV shelter, and talks about rape and consent all the time, sometimes getting it just a little bit wrong in a revealing way. He has friends and is well-liked, except by the people who know women he has preyed on, and people take his words at face value. It wouldn't surprise me if it were revealed that he was harassing women under a pseudonym. What do you do about someone like that? Short of totally dismantling the patriarchy, I have no idea.
Also anecdotal, but i've very much had the same experience. From young guys in bands who say all the right things and then are creepy as hell, to older guys who are established community members everyone respects for similar reasons who then flirt with underage girls online.
The biggest problem i've encountered lately is ostensibly progressive-y feminist people of all genders reacting somewhere between "oh... hmm... wow... i'll have to think about that and get back to you" and "i don't believe that"(with the subtext of "because i think that person is an unreliable narrator") just as hard as the "bad guys" do, but a lot more quietly.
I'm not talking about rapists here either, just guys who... are creepy or awful to a few women when they think they can get away with it and then flex hard about being Super Feminist and make all the right noises while having queer and lots of feministy lady friends.
This has been discussed at length on here before. It's a mixture of missing stair and priming people to do the lifting for them.
It's awful hard to admit you were completely wrong about someone when they convinced you they weren't just ok/decent, but good and safe. It's too much cognitive dissonance. And it gets even more complicated when it's shitty, or even pretty shitty, but still grey area stuff that Decent People can disagree on the severity of. There's plenty of stuff like DV or assault that basically everyone would write someone off for, but what about shitty creepy messages? It's a minefield. And they exploit it.
posted by emptythought at 1:58 AM on February 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also anecdotal, but i've very much had the same experience. From young guys in bands who say all the right things and then are creepy as hell, to older guys who are established community members everyone respects for similar reasons who then flirt with underage girls online.
The biggest problem i've encountered lately is ostensibly progressive-y feminist people of all genders reacting somewhere between "oh... hmm... wow... i'll have to think about that and get back to you" and "i don't believe that"(with the subtext of "because i think that person is an unreliable narrator") just as hard as the "bad guys" do, but a lot more quietly.
I'm not talking about rapists here either, just guys who... are creepy or awful to a few women when they think they can get away with it and then flex hard about being Super Feminist and make all the right noises while having queer and lots of feministy lady friends.
This has been discussed at length on here before. It's a mixture of missing stair and priming people to do the lifting for them.
It's awful hard to admit you were completely wrong about someone when they convinced you they weren't just ok/decent, but good and safe. It's too much cognitive dissonance. And it gets even more complicated when it's shitty, or even pretty shitty, but still grey area stuff that Decent People can disagree on the severity of. There's plenty of stuff like DV or assault that basically everyone would write someone off for, but what about shitty creepy messages? It's a minefield. And they exploit it.
posted by emptythought at 1:58 AM on February 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
> The top comment on her piece is some dude mansplaining the issue.
"The author deleted this Medium story"
posted by homunculus at 11:53 PM on February 10, 2016
"The author deleted this Medium story"
posted by homunculus at 11:53 PM on February 10, 2016
Anecdotal, but one of the men I've met who (covertly) treats women the worst is also very practiced at reciting feminist rhetoric
Ahhh you don’t wanna watch Lars von Trier’s Nymphomaniac then... I hated/loved the cynical evil bastard way that kind of situation (generally speaking) was handled in the film, because it can be so pathetically true.
posted by bitteschoen at 1:35 PM on February 12, 2016
Ahhh you don’t wanna watch Lars von Trier’s Nymphomaniac then... I hated/loved the cynical evil bastard way that kind of situation (generally speaking) was handled in the film, because it can be so pathetically true.
posted by bitteschoen at 1:35 PM on February 12, 2016
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posted by phunniemee at 9:31 AM on February 3, 2016 [6 favorites]