What audiences are saying is, "that wasn't funny."
February 24, 2016 10:57 AM Subscribe
> I couldn't find anything resembling "Political correctness makes comedy better" in TFA. Where did you get that?
That sounds to me like a fair paraphrase of “political correctness does make for better jokes,” which, as you noted, is in the headline.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:09 AM on February 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
That sounds to me like a fair paraphrase of “political correctness does make for better jokes,” which, as you noted, is in the headline.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:09 AM on February 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
Yeah that's weird, I think he makes it very clear - did you watch the video?
And, you know, it’s all part of a maturation process, I think, for everybody. And I’m of the school that says adapt or die, you know. And so if this is not a thing that we joke about anymore, I’m going to find something else to joke about. Or I’m going to be better at handling these subjects so that people know what my intent is. My intent is not to mock the victim here. It’s not to mock the little person. I’m ridiculing something that is worthy of ridicule and that every word out of my mouth is worth the same. And just not to be cheap, I think, is a tiny thing, but it’s kind of important.
posted by windbox at 11:12 AM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
And, you know, it’s all part of a maturation process, I think, for everybody. And I’m of the school that says adapt or die, you know. And so if this is not a thing that we joke about anymore, I’m going to find something else to joke about. Or I’m going to be better at handling these subjects so that people know what my intent is. My intent is not to mock the victim here. It’s not to mock the little person. I’m ridiculing something that is worthy of ridicule and that every word out of my mouth is worth the same. And just not to be cheap, I think, is a tiny thing, but it’s kind of important.
posted by windbox at 11:12 AM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I saw this on YouTube and the commenters (I know, I know...) were having this circlejerk over how the video is pro-censorship and how "SJWs wanna take away our free speech!" Which is to be expected I suppose, but it's hilarious how obvious it was that they didn't RTFA or WTFV.
posted by brundlefly at 11:13 AM on February 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 11:13 AM on February 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
“My brand of comedy is to just tell it like it is and never water it down for anyone— even if it ruffles some feathers"
posted by saul wright at 11:14 AM on February 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by saul wright at 11:14 AM on February 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think the title used political correctness because it's effective clickbait, but Tompkins view is more nuanced, and would have to be, as the term "political correctness" seems like it was designed by a robot whose only job was to remove nuance.
This seems to be his main point:
[O]ver time people who are tired of being ashamed because a thing happened to them, they vote with their silence or they say that’s not funny. And I think that comedians have to recognize that humor evolves and times change and you can’t stay stuck in the same place for too long because then you’re irrelevant.
In other words, audiences aren't politically correct, they are offering an honest reaction, and their reaction is "That wasn't funny." And a good comic should recognize that maybe they're being lazy, or maybe times have changed, and try to be funnier. And part of being funnier is being sensitive to the fact that being shocking for its own sake doesn't respect the audience.
posted by maxsparber at 11:15 AM on February 24, 2016 [34 favorites]
This seems to be his main point:
[O]ver time people who are tired of being ashamed because a thing happened to them, they vote with their silence or they say that’s not funny. And I think that comedians have to recognize that humor evolves and times change and you can’t stay stuck in the same place for too long because then you’re irrelevant.
In other words, audiences aren't politically correct, they are offering an honest reaction, and their reaction is "That wasn't funny." And a good comic should recognize that maybe they're being lazy, or maybe times have changed, and try to be funnier. And part of being funnier is being sensitive to the fact that being shocking for its own sake doesn't respect the audience.
posted by maxsparber at 11:15 AM on February 24, 2016 [34 favorites]
That sounds to me like a fair paraphrase of “political correctness does make for better jokes,” which, as you noted, is in the headline.
Indeed, but I think ostranenie's point was that it wasn't a direct quote and therefore shouldn't have been quoted in the description.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:16 AM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Indeed, but I think ostranenie's point was that it wasn't a direct quote and therefore shouldn't have been quoted in the description.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:16 AM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
You can be Brian Regan and be clean and be funny. You can be Jim Norton and be scatological and be funny. You can be Bob Newhart and be subtle and be funny. You can be George Carlin and burn shit down and be funny.
The trick is to be consistent so that your audiences know what to expect, and so that people who find your kind of humor funny will listen to you and those who do not will not. That's pretty much it.
posted by delfin at 11:17 AM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
The trick is to be consistent so that your audiences know what to expect, and so that people who find your kind of humor funny will listen to you and those who do not will not. That's pretty much it.
posted by delfin at 11:17 AM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Political correctness makes comedy better" is very reductive and makes him sound like he's all for censorship. I read the transcript and it's very different.
Reducing his thoughts to "In Comedy, Nothing Is Off Limits, but Political Correctness Does Make for Better Jokes" is almost okay. Further reducing that to "Political correctness makes comedy better" made me do a double take and think, "has my favorite comedian lost his mind?"
turns out he hasn't lost his mind. carry on
posted by ostranenie at 11:18 AM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Reducing his thoughts to "In Comedy, Nothing Is Off Limits, but Political Correctness Does Make for Better Jokes" is almost okay. Further reducing that to "Political correctness makes comedy better" made me do a double take and think, "has my favorite comedian lost his mind?"
turns out he hasn't lost his mind. carry on
posted by ostranenie at 11:18 AM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, I think there is a case that can be made the so-called political correctness actually improves our ability to communicate.
Actually, I know there is, because Lindy West made it.
Tompkin's points are related, but not the same.
posted by maxsparber at 11:20 AM on February 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
Actually, I know there is, because Lindy West made it.
Tompkin's points are related, but not the same.
posted by maxsparber at 11:20 AM on February 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
Political Correctness Absolutely and Unconditionally Improves All Forms of Comedy, Says Famous Comedian Who Drops the Occasional F-Bomb Onstage and Has Skewered Chik-Fil-A for Homophobia
Doesn't really work, does it?
posted by ostranenie at 11:23 AM on February 24, 2016
Doesn't really work, does it?
posted by ostranenie at 11:23 AM on February 24, 2016
I'm not seeing how saying fuck and objecting to homophobia make someone less "politically correct" in how the term is applied?
posted by Deoridhe at 11:26 AM on February 24, 2016 [31 favorites]
posted by Deoridhe at 11:26 AM on February 24, 2016 [31 favorites]
Doesn't really work, does it?
Sort of seems to, yes.
posted by maxsparber at 11:27 AM on February 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
Sort of seems to, yes.
posted by maxsparber at 11:27 AM on February 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
But I would say in most cases, audiences are not telling them you can’t joke about this. What they’re saying is that wasn’t funny. And that’s a different thing.
I don't know if this is true, especially in the sense of "in most cases." But do think there are things that are very funny and quite offensive. So I think his framing avoids the hard cases. Of course comedians shouldn't be lazy, and they shouldn't rely on tired tropes to get laughs rather than adapting to changing times are creating original material.
But what if the jokes are funny? Is humor a defense against giving offense? Is one of the virtues of humor that it allows you to give offense, which allows people to publicly deal with a topic that's difficult or that makes people uncomfortable? I don't know there there's a simple answer to the question, but I think saying, "What's labeled political correctness is just about audiences not finding certain things funny any more" is leaving out any part of the discussion that might yield genuine insight.
posted by layceepee at 11:28 AM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't know if this is true, especially in the sense of "in most cases." But do think there are things that are very funny and quite offensive. So I think his framing avoids the hard cases. Of course comedians shouldn't be lazy, and they shouldn't rely on tired tropes to get laughs rather than adapting to changing times are creating original material.
But what if the jokes are funny? Is humor a defense against giving offense? Is one of the virtues of humor that it allows you to give offense, which allows people to publicly deal with a topic that's difficult or that makes people uncomfortable? I don't know there there's a simple answer to the question, but I think saying, "What's labeled political correctness is just about audiences not finding certain things funny any more" is leaving out any part of the discussion that might yield genuine insight.
posted by layceepee at 11:28 AM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I would defend their freedom of speech if I thought it was in jeopardy. I would defend their freedom of speech to tell uninspired, bigoted, blowjob, gay-bashing, racist and rape jokes all under the guise of being edgy, but that's not the edge. That's what sells. They couldn't possibly pander any harder or be more commercially mainstream, because this is the "Oh no, you didn't say that!" generation, where a shocking comment has more weight than the truth. No one has any shame anymore, and we're supposed to celebrate it.One of the best speechs from one of the best and worst movies.
posted by Talez at 11:30 AM on February 24, 2016 [21 favorites]
Fucking hell, people.
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS ≠ CENSORSHIP! Stop saying it does! If you want to!
Political Correctness, as others have noted, is just basic fucking respect for other people.
The comics losing it over "political correctness" are full of shit. They don't want to tell it like it is, consequences be damned. They want to be lazy and whine their hacky asses off every time there actually is a consequence in their inevitably privileged-ass cis-straight-white-male world. They are petulant children who don't deserve a response as thoughtful as the one Tompkins gives here. They just deserve silence and a complete death of attention.
Except for Seinfeld. He told a shitty homophobic joke, got silence and a smattering of "that's not funny," and decided that the problem was political correctness because the real issue - college kids informing him that he's not hip anymore - was too hateful for him to actually face.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:30 AM on February 24, 2016 [111 favorites]
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS ≠ CENSORSHIP! Stop saying it does! If you want to!
Political Correctness, as others have noted, is just basic fucking respect for other people.
The comics losing it over "political correctness" are full of shit. They don't want to tell it like it is, consequences be damned. They want to be lazy and whine their hacky asses off every time there actually is a consequence in their inevitably privileged-ass cis-straight-white-male world. They are petulant children who don't deserve a response as thoughtful as the one Tompkins gives here. They just deserve silence and a complete death of attention.
Except for Seinfeld. He told a shitty homophobic joke, got silence and a smattering of "that's not funny," and decided that the problem was political correctness because the real issue - college kids informing him that he's not hip anymore - was too hateful for him to actually face.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:30 AM on February 24, 2016 [111 favorites]
I've felt this way for a while. Brash comedians may complain that they can't do their acts anymore because audiences “get offended,” but lord knows there exist plenty of people on earth who would always laugh their asses off at the worst stuff that, say, Frankie Boyle has to say. The challenge for these comedians, then, is to find those people and ensure they're the only ones in the room.
In other words, you can view stand-up comedy as a utilitarian thing: i.e., the "best" comic is one that makes the most people feel good while making the least people feel shitty. You can do a joke that makes 90% of the people in a room laugh, but is it worth it if the joke makes the other 10% remember a horrible thing that happened to them? (Yes, this is horribly reductive; no, I'm not proposing this as a serious way of assessing the quality of comics.)
When Bill Maher and Jerry Seinfeld say they won't play college campuses anymore, I think they mean that they can't count on young mainstream audiences to have the same values that the last generation of mainstream audiences had. They want to keep joking about the same things in the same ways, but they're annoyed that the audience they've chosen no longer broadly finds those things funny. I don't mind at all that their response to this is to choose a different audience; I think that's the logical thing to do. But it bothers them not to still have that sort of mainstream appeal, so they grouse about it and make like it's the audience's problem.
Hopefully we start to view stand-up comedy the way we view music: there are some acts with broad appeal, but we'd rightly consider it strange if GWAR started bitching about how they haven't been invited to do the Super Bowl halftime show. A joke can't be objectively “funny” or “not funny” any more than music can be objectively “good” or “awful”; it will always be a negotiation between performer and listener.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:31 AM on February 24, 2016 [28 favorites]
In other words, you can view stand-up comedy as a utilitarian thing: i.e., the "best" comic is one that makes the most people feel good while making the least people feel shitty. You can do a joke that makes 90% of the people in a room laugh, but is it worth it if the joke makes the other 10% remember a horrible thing that happened to them? (Yes, this is horribly reductive; no, I'm not proposing this as a serious way of assessing the quality of comics.)
When Bill Maher and Jerry Seinfeld say they won't play college campuses anymore, I think they mean that they can't count on young mainstream audiences to have the same values that the last generation of mainstream audiences had. They want to keep joking about the same things in the same ways, but they're annoyed that the audience they've chosen no longer broadly finds those things funny. I don't mind at all that their response to this is to choose a different audience; I think that's the logical thing to do. But it bothers them not to still have that sort of mainstream appeal, so they grouse about it and make like it's the audience's problem.
Hopefully we start to view stand-up comedy the way we view music: there are some acts with broad appeal, but we'd rightly consider it strange if GWAR started bitching about how they haven't been invited to do the Super Bowl halftime show. A joke can't be objectively “funny” or “not funny” any more than music can be objectively “good” or “awful”; it will always be a negotiation between performer and listener.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:31 AM on February 24, 2016 [28 favorites]
I would defend their freedom of speech if I thought it was in jeopardy.
Well, fortunately, nobody's freedom of speech is in jeopardy.
Their freedom to speak without people responding has been compromised, but that was never protected.
posted by maxsparber at 11:32 AM on February 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
Well, fortunately, nobody's freedom of speech is in jeopardy.
Their freedom to speak without people responding has been compromised, but that was never protected.
posted by maxsparber at 11:32 AM on February 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
*in conversations about political correctness, there is always a caricature of an "I'm offended!" crybaby. this is not that. this is feeling shame and pain.
I will never forget the gutted feeling I had when the Chapelle Show did a sketch where the "joke" was that the only reason the woman in the sketch was of value was because she had large breasts. I mean, literally - it was an "It's a Wonderful Life" parody where she sees she would be single, unemployed, and dying in a ditch if she had small breasts, and then she 'wakes up' and has large breasts and everything is great because now she knows her value and place. I don't remember if I cried, but even thinking about it now gives me that hollow 'maybe I just shouldn't exist' feeling.
It doesn't make me love him any less - I adore Dave Chapelle and most of the time he was 100% on the mark - but it was a stark reminder that awareness of discrimination/prejudice along one axis does not require awareness of discrimination along any other.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:40 AM on February 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
I will never forget the gutted feeling I had when the Chapelle Show did a sketch where the "joke" was that the only reason the woman in the sketch was of value was because she had large breasts. I mean, literally - it was an "It's a Wonderful Life" parody where she sees she would be single, unemployed, and dying in a ditch if she had small breasts, and then she 'wakes up' and has large breasts and everything is great because now she knows her value and place. I don't remember if I cried, but even thinking about it now gives me that hollow 'maybe I just shouldn't exist' feeling.
It doesn't make me love him any less - I adore Dave Chapelle and most of the time he was 100% on the mark - but it was a stark reminder that awareness of discrimination/prejudice along one axis does not require awareness of discrimination along any other.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:40 AM on February 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
If he's saying, in effect, that "you can't make easy money as a comedian these days punching down at homosexuals, at ethnic groups, at women, or at other soft targets that used to be exploitable but who now punch back," then someone tell me how the hell Jeff Dunham is still raking in cash.
posted by delfin at 11:45 AM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by delfin at 11:45 AM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
If he's saying, in effect, that "you can't make easy money as a comedian these days punching down at homosexuals, at ethnic groups, at women, or at other soft targets that used to be exploitable but who now punch back," then someone tell me how the hell Jeff Dunham is still raking in cash.
Trump voters?
posted by Mooski at 11:47 AM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trump voters?
posted by Mooski at 11:47 AM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
someone tell me how the hell Jeff Dunham is still raking in cash.
Forget it, Jake. It's Bransontown.
posted by maxsparber at 11:50 AM on February 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
Forget it, Jake. It's Bransontown.
posted by maxsparber at 11:50 AM on February 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
Lotta people do love them some racist puppets.
posted by brennen at 11:50 AM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by brennen at 11:50 AM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Great comedians evolve. Hacks always stay the same.
I've quoted this in a previous thread about this same topic, but I think it bears repeating:
[Richard Pryor talking about his recent trip to Africa]
I've quoted this in a previous thread about this same topic, but I think it bears repeating:
[Richard Pryor talking about his recent trip to Africa]
“There’s nothing like going and seeing nothing but black. Black people. I mean from the wino to the president, it’s black people…posted by Atom Eyes at 11:50 AM on February 24, 2016 [82 favorites]
One thing I got out of it was magic. I’d like to share it with you. I was leaving, and I was sitting in the hotel and a voice said to me, it said, ‘Look around, what do you see?’ And I said, ‘I see all colors of people doing everything, you know.’ And the voice said, ‘Do you see any niggers?’ And I said, ‘No.’ And it said, ‘You know why? Because there aren’t any.’ And it hit me like a shot...
I was sitting there, I said, ‘Yeah, I been here three weeks and I haven’t even said it. I haven’t even thought it.’ And it made me think, Oh my God, I’ve been wrong. I’ve been wrong...
I ain’t never going to call another black man a nigger. You know, because we never was no niggers. That’s a word that’s used to describe our own wretchedness. And we perpetuate it now. Because it’s dead. That word is dead. [We’re] men and women...
And I don’t want them hip white people coming up to me, calling me no nigger or telling me nigger jokes. I don’t like it. I’m just telling you, it’s uncomfortable to me. I don’t like it when black people say it to me. So I love you all, and you can take that with you."
In any other context, whining about your jokes not landing and blaming your audience is a sign of a bad comedian. It's bizarre that pinning it on "political correctness" gets any traction, especially with legitimate names in comedy. Even if it's true, and the amorphous boogeyman of political correctness IS the entire reason your audience isn't laughing--why is that their fault? Why aren't you adapting?
posted by almostmanda at 11:56 AM on February 24, 2016 [42 favorites]
posted by almostmanda at 11:56 AM on February 24, 2016 [42 favorites]
i love w. kamau bell's take on offensive comedy being just the way it is :
posted by nadawi at 12:00 PM on February 24, 2016 [35 favorites]
They think that’s just comedy. Then when they go “Blah blah blah blah racist, offensive, sexist statement” and somebody goes, “ahem” they go “Well that’s what comedy is!” and I’m like, “No, that’s what your comedy is. I’m not trying to take away your comedy, but let’s just know that your comedy is in a box. It’s not all comedy. It just happens to be a big box, because America. Hashtag white people.”W. Kamau Bell On Comedy In The Age Of Social Media
posted by nadawi at 12:00 PM on February 24, 2016 [35 favorites]
However, it's hard to laugh when you're genuinely offended* by something. So no, there aren't really things that are "quite offensive" and also "very funny" unless you're part of the problem.
So maybe this is just our privilege showing, but I think you are very correct when you say it is hard to laugh when you are offended, and Tompkins is saying it is hard, but not impossible. Many comedians these days are saying that "political correctness" is making it impossible, and his opinion is that they are just not trying hard enough.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:14 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
So maybe this is just our privilege showing, but I think you are very correct when you say it is hard to laugh when you are offended, and Tompkins is saying it is hard, but not impossible. Many comedians these days are saying that "political correctness" is making it impossible, and his opinion is that they are just not trying hard enough.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:14 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Punching down" has never been truly "funny", but it has always been popular because it is reassuring to the audience. And let's face it, it's a BIG audience, because there are a lot of people (including most Straight White Males) who need a lot of reassuring to avoid being overwhelmed by guilt at what shitty human beings they are.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:34 PM on February 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:34 PM on February 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
Jokes make fun of someone or something. There is a target, be it a person, behavior, system...even a comedian's own mistakes and foibles can be the target. The question is, where does the joke land, on a person (or system or whatever) that has no power or does it land where the power exists? Entrenched power, which in our context is white cis male power. Which is why, say, Donald Trump is such a perfect target for punching up. But when the joke is at the expense of those with no power....Thompson is right, it's just not funny.
I think it was Bill Burr who I found to be an absolutely dreadful comedian because his schtick was prefaced on the notion that sometimes women probably deserve a beating. Or at least a slap or something. Of course that sounds awful, but because he's a comedian he put up a veneer, a front that makes you think that political correctness is the more worthy target. He certainly won over the audience, though.
posted by zardoz at 12:37 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it was Bill Burr who I found to be an absolutely dreadful comedian because his schtick was prefaced on the notion that sometimes women probably deserve a beating. Or at least a slap or something. Of course that sounds awful, but because he's a comedian he put up a veneer, a front that makes you think that political correctness is the more worthy target. He certainly won over the audience, though.
posted by zardoz at 12:37 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love you, Mister Peanutbutter!
posted by lkc at 12:38 PM on February 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by lkc at 12:38 PM on February 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
The idea that something can be "quite offensive" and also "very funny" is a good old canard. I recall with particular displeasure how in high school it was considered cool among straight guys to repeat jokes from Eddie Murphy: Delirious, which had a 15-minute opening routine centered around gay panic and wishes of violence on gay people. Somehow I guess the idea was that I was supposed to join in laughing uproariously at someone who seemed to want to encourage violence against me and people like me for being gay, and if I didn't laugh (I was in the closet at that point in my life), it was because I was revealing myself to be gay and that I therefore deserved the violence. A very prominent attitude in 1980s cultural currency of all kinds, from movies to music, and definitely not limited to Eddie Murphy.
posted by blucevalo at 12:42 PM on February 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by blucevalo at 12:42 PM on February 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
witchen, based on his throwing a very public hissy fit over one joke not landing at a college show the rest of the country could give a fuck about, I have my doubts about what Jerry Seinfeld "can handle."
posted by Navelgazer at 12:47 PM on February 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 12:47 PM on February 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
Comedy, like any other art form, is subject to the changing tastes of the public. Popular musical styles change with the times because the audience demands something new, and the same thing is happening to comedy. There will always be an audience for offensive joke telling just like there will always be an audience for jazz or '80s New Wave...it just won't be the mainstream audience and it will be smaller and older.
That's pretty much all Tompkins is saying in this piece. 'Political Correctness' and censorship have little to do with it.
posted by rocket88 at 12:49 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
That's pretty much all Tompkins is saying in this piece. 'Political Correctness' and censorship have little to do with it.
posted by rocket88 at 12:49 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
A good rule of thumb I heard was not to mock people for traits that they can't change. So making fun of disabilities, color, gender or orientation isn't kosher, but you can still mock Donald Trump for the Cheeto-colored spray tan he chooses.
posted by Soliloquy at 12:51 PM on February 24, 2016
posted by Soliloquy at 12:51 PM on February 24, 2016
A good rule of thumb I heard was not to mock people for traits that they can't change. So making fun of disabilities, color, gender or orientation isn't kosher, but you can still mock Donald Trump for the Cheeto-colored spray tan he chooses.
I don't think he can change that anymore. It's part of him now.
posted by Edgewise at 12:54 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't think he can change that anymore. It's part of him now.
posted by Edgewise at 12:54 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
There will always be an audience for offensive joke telling just like there will always be an audience for jazz or '80s New Wave...it just won't be the mainstream audience and it will be smaller and older.
Watching the Tompkins video reminded me specifically of this...
Marc Maron's not everyone's cup of tea, but listen to Gallagher's* reaction in the infamous WTF interview Maron asks him why he's telling tired old homophobic jokes about lesbians on stage.
If you can't bear to listen, Gallagher's notion is basically this - that even asking about why you'd include something that in your routine, even when asked by a fellow comedian on a podcast that deals extensively in comedy, is somehow a personal attack and an attempt at censorship.
based on his throwing a very public hissy fit over one joke not landing at a college show the rest of the country could give a fuck about, I have my doubts about what Jerry Seinfeld "can handle."
That was definitely a "Gallagher moment" on Seinfeld's part.
Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences - and if the "consequences" are some hisses from the audience and some snarky comments on social media...well, he can just cry me a fuckin' river into his big pile of money.
*Gallagher who? This guy.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:57 PM on February 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
Watching the Tompkins video reminded me specifically of this...
Marc Maron's not everyone's cup of tea, but listen to Gallagher's* reaction in the infamous WTF interview Maron asks him why he's telling tired old homophobic jokes about lesbians on stage.
If you can't bear to listen, Gallagher's notion is basically this - that even asking about why you'd include something that in your routine, even when asked by a fellow comedian on a podcast that deals extensively in comedy, is somehow a personal attack and an attempt at censorship.
based on his throwing a very public hissy fit over one joke not landing at a college show the rest of the country could give a fuck about, I have my doubts about what Jerry Seinfeld "can handle."
That was definitely a "Gallagher moment" on Seinfeld's part.
Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences - and if the "consequences" are some hisses from the audience and some snarky comments on social media...well, he can just cry me a fuckin' river into his big pile of money.
*Gallagher who? This guy.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:57 PM on February 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
The idea that something can be "quite offensive" and also "very funny" is a good old canard.
"Offensive" is a real broad stroke. The beginning of Delirious is so jaw-droppingly weird and hateful that I think most people don't even remember it if they haven't seen it recently.
Lenny Bruce got arrested for saying "'to' is a preposition, 'come' is a verb" because it was considered obscene and offensive.
I don't think Eddy Murphy was offending his audiences sensibilities, I think he was playing to the crowd.
The same way that andrew dice clay wasn't offending his audience with his shitty jokes. There were no cops dragging him off-stage in handcuffs for his bits about asian drivers and immigrant store-clerks.
The same way that family guy always positions itself as being edgy and oh-no-he-didn't style humor for being racist and sexist, when prime-time TV has ALWAYS been racist and sexist.
"Offensive" is ... maybe the wrong word? Pandering-Retrenchment doesn't really roll off the tongue, though.
posted by lkc at 12:58 PM on February 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
"Offensive" is a real broad stroke. The beginning of Delirious is so jaw-droppingly weird and hateful that I think most people don't even remember it if they haven't seen it recently.
Lenny Bruce got arrested for saying "'to' is a preposition, 'come' is a verb" because it was considered obscene and offensive.
I don't think Eddy Murphy was offending his audiences sensibilities, I think he was playing to the crowd.
The same way that andrew dice clay wasn't offending his audience with his shitty jokes. There were no cops dragging him off-stage in handcuffs for his bits about asian drivers and immigrant store-clerks.
The same way that family guy always positions itself as being edgy and oh-no-he-didn't style humor for being racist and sexist, when prime-time TV has ALWAYS been racist and sexist.
"Offensive" is ... maybe the wrong word? Pandering-Retrenchment doesn't really roll off the tongue, though.
posted by lkc at 12:58 PM on February 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
Man oh man, do I enjoy PFT. This is a great video.
posted by boo_radley at 1:11 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by boo_radley at 1:11 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
mandolin conspiracy: "Marc Maron's not everyone's cup of tea, but listen to Gallagher's* reaction in the infamous WTF interview Maron asks him why he's telling tired old homophobic jokes about lesbians on stage.
"
Great point you've made. From PFT's video:
"
Great point you've made. From PFT's video:
But the fact of the matter is these people are the people of today and you might be a person of yesterday if you can’t adjust and you can’t be in tune with what people think is funny anymore.posted by boo_radley at 1:14 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I had heard for many years that the performances of Lincoln Perry (known by the stage name Stepin Fetchit) were offensive, and based on descriptions of them, I had no doubt that it was. I'd never actually seen him perform because, as Wikipedia puts it, by the 70s he had become "embarrassing anachronism who echoed and perpetuated negative stereotypes" and his films weren't shown anywhere as far as I can tell.
I think it was in the 90s when I say a documentary that had been made in the 60s called Black History: Lost Stolen or Strayed. It featured Perry's Fetchit character as an example of the offensive portrayals of African-Americans featured in popular entertainment. And it was offensive. But I also thought that Perry was a brilliant performer and was really very funny.
Ironically, the "good guys" who made the documentary (who Perry sued unsuccessfully for defamation of character) were Bill Cosby and Andy Rooney.
Punching down" has never been truly "funny", but it has always been popular because it is reassuring to the audience.
So you mean people laugh at it because they think it's funny, but they are wrong and it's not?
posted by layceepee at 1:18 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it was in the 90s when I say a documentary that had been made in the 60s called Black History: Lost Stolen or Strayed. It featured Perry's Fetchit character as an example of the offensive portrayals of African-Americans featured in popular entertainment. And it was offensive. But I also thought that Perry was a brilliant performer and was really very funny.
Ironically, the "good guys" who made the documentary (who Perry sued unsuccessfully for defamation of character) were Bill Cosby and Andy Rooney.
Punching down" has never been truly "funny", but it has always been popular because it is reassuring to the audience.
So you mean people laugh at it because they think it's funny, but they are wrong and it's not?
posted by layceepee at 1:18 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's not laughing. And there's heaping scorn/shame on others because they're having Wrong Fun. The two things are not the same.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:23 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:23 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, when a comedy show does a hackneyed [CW: transphobia] "OMFG, that hot lady is ACTUALLY A MAN" gag, I'm allowed to not laugh, but I can't scorn them?
Spoiler alert: I'm gonna scorn the fuck out of them.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:37 PM on February 24, 2016 [25 favorites]
Spoiler alert: I'm gonna scorn the fuck out of them.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:37 PM on February 24, 2016 [25 favorites]
I mean, I've heard my uncle tell some pretty horrifying sexist, racist, and homophobic jokes. Truly vile. People laughed because they agreed, women should be beaten, homosexuals should be murdered, yadda yadda (to carry on the Seinfeld theme). So yeah, I guess they were "funny" to someone. They were, technically, jokes. But you have to be pretty insulated from the horrors of actual misogynist, homophobic, racist violence to laugh instead of grimacing. You have to think "oh haha, it's true, that person is disgusting/weak/subhuman!" Or alternately, "what an unexpected twist that I was allowed to indulge my prejudices at the end of that joke!" So no, those jokes aren't funny if you don't share that frame of reference.
There's a different class of "ironic" offense giving that's not in the same category, but if you deal with real shame/humiliation for your status as a human being on the daily it's hard to find that as transgressive or edgy as the hegemonic class does.
I also think when you're talking about someone telling jokes about their own minority group, it's often a different dynamic. It doesn't mean that the jokes are necessarily any funnier, or that they're not "offensive" in whatever way, but the level of nuance that is available to someone who belongs in that group is almost always going to be more vivid than the level of nuance to someone not in that group. Observational humor relies on the sharpness of the observation. You need to have some level of empathy to observe well, generally. If your joke is that [this kind of person] should be beaten because of [this kind of stereotype], sorry, it's kind of shitty.
This is random but it's a reason I like Mindy Lahiri. I know very few men who find her funny, but I like her because she lampoons the superficiality of being a celeb-obsessed woman while also embracing it as a part of who she is. It's not totally PC by any measure, but it's not hateful, either. I think a lot of men don't get into it because in their minds "caring about shopping for purses = something awful and feminine to be ashamed of" and they can't come up with any more complex vision of a human woman than that. Nor do they care to.
I'm a pretty firm believer that racist/sexist/transphobic/homophobic jokes are the Wrong Fun. But that's OK, because I can't actually do anything (nor would I) beyond vocally disapproving, which fans of giving offense should be quite comfortable with.
I would actually like to hear some examples of the "tough" jokes that are offensive yet also very funny and allow an audience catharsis. I don't think it's really all that common, especially when it's a dominant class taking the piss out of a beleaguered class.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:37 PM on February 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
There's a different class of "ironic" offense giving that's not in the same category, but if you deal with real shame/humiliation for your status as a human being on the daily it's hard to find that as transgressive or edgy as the hegemonic class does.
I also think when you're talking about someone telling jokes about their own minority group, it's often a different dynamic. It doesn't mean that the jokes are necessarily any funnier, or that they're not "offensive" in whatever way, but the level of nuance that is available to someone who belongs in that group is almost always going to be more vivid than the level of nuance to someone not in that group. Observational humor relies on the sharpness of the observation. You need to have some level of empathy to observe well, generally. If your joke is that [this kind of person] should be beaten because of [this kind of stereotype], sorry, it's kind of shitty.
This is random but it's a reason I like Mindy Lahiri. I know very few men who find her funny, but I like her because she lampoons the superficiality of being a celeb-obsessed woman while also embracing it as a part of who she is. It's not totally PC by any measure, but it's not hateful, either. I think a lot of men don't get into it because in their minds "caring about shopping for purses = something awful and feminine to be ashamed of" and they can't come up with any more complex vision of a human woman than that. Nor do they care to.
I'm a pretty firm believer that racist/sexist/transphobic/homophobic jokes are the Wrong Fun. But that's OK, because I can't actually do anything (nor would I) beyond vocally disapproving, which fans of giving offense should be quite comfortable with.
I would actually like to hear some examples of the "tough" jokes that are offensive yet also very funny and allow an audience catharsis. I don't think it's really all that common, especially when it's a dominant class taking the piss out of a beleaguered class.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:37 PM on February 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
So you mean people laugh at it because they think it's funny, but they are wrong and it's not?
"Laughing" is a physical release. And "funny" is not the only thing that can trigger it. "People laughed because they agreed." (Of course, with an 'appropriate' audience, you get cheers and applause more than laughs) Some of the funniest things I've ever seen made me react with little more than an involuntary chuckle. And watching somebody 'lose it' and break up uncontrollably laughing is not really 'funny', but entertaining in other ways.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:40 PM on February 24, 2016
"Laughing" is a physical release. And "funny" is not the only thing that can trigger it. "People laughed because they agreed." (Of course, with an 'appropriate' audience, you get cheers and applause more than laughs) Some of the funniest things I've ever seen made me react with little more than an involuntary chuckle. And watching somebody 'lose it' and break up uncontrollably laughing is not really 'funny', but entertaining in other ways.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:40 PM on February 24, 2016
> Spoiler alert: I'm gonna scorn the fuck out of them.
Yeah, so this is the thing that I left out of my earlier comment.
If some transphobic comedian is playing to a room of 20 of his dearest transphobic fans, and kills every night, in one sense that’s OK as long as they keep to themselves and those shitty jokes never escape and do damage to a person’s feelings. Part of me wants to let those 21 assholes enjoy themselves in seclusion, chortling while they go extinct.
The other part of me believes that jokes have the power to reinforce sensibilities. Those 21 people would probably leave that awful comedy club and go out and be dicks to trans people in real life. After all, this must be mainstream opinion, right? The whole room was laughing!
You should absolutely scorn the fuck out of them. I don’t think PFT is saying you can’t scorn them. Transphobic jokes aren’t bad because they’re not funny; they’re not funny (to most humane people) because they’re bad. I think PFT is just trying to phrase things in terms of the only currency that most comedians claim to care about.
Most comedians would have the sense not to tell someone, “Look, I understand why you think my joke is transphobic, I completely get why it hurt your feelings, but if you just put all that aside for a moment I think you would acknowledge that it’s still a funny joke.” The anti-PC comedy crowd makes it sound like people were all ready to laugh at some awesome jokes, but then some other part of their brain swooped in to play the offense card and prevented them from laughing because they’d feel guilty about it or something.
posted by savetheclocktower at 2:03 PM on February 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
Yeah, so this is the thing that I left out of my earlier comment.
If some transphobic comedian is playing to a room of 20 of his dearest transphobic fans, and kills every night, in one sense that’s OK as long as they keep to themselves and those shitty jokes never escape and do damage to a person’s feelings. Part of me wants to let those 21 assholes enjoy themselves in seclusion, chortling while they go extinct.
The other part of me believes that jokes have the power to reinforce sensibilities. Those 21 people would probably leave that awful comedy club and go out and be dicks to trans people in real life. After all, this must be mainstream opinion, right? The whole room was laughing!
You should absolutely scorn the fuck out of them. I don’t think PFT is saying you can’t scorn them. Transphobic jokes aren’t bad because they’re not funny; they’re not funny (to most humane people) because they’re bad. I think PFT is just trying to phrase things in terms of the only currency that most comedians claim to care about.
Most comedians would have the sense not to tell someone, “Look, I understand why you think my joke is transphobic, I completely get why it hurt your feelings, but if you just put all that aside for a moment I think you would acknowledge that it’s still a funny joke.” The anti-PC comedy crowd makes it sound like people were all ready to laugh at some awesome jokes, but then some other part of their brain swooped in to play the offense card and prevented them from laughing because they’d feel guilty about it or something.
posted by savetheclocktower at 2:03 PM on February 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
In a lot of cases, "political correctness" can be replaced by "the generation gap". Eg: Seinfeld and Maher will no longer play college audiences because of the generation gap.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 2:03 PM on February 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 2:03 PM on February 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
I got into an argument with someone on Facebook (ugh. why did I even bother?) along these lines.
He's an improv dork in Chicago. I'm an improv dork in Chicago. We know each other through are actual day jobs but probably share a glimmer of hope that we'll be professional comedians some day (unlikely. I think we're both too old to break out)
Anyway I was arguing that anything that makes comedians think even a little bit more about the jokes they're crafting results in better jokes. He was arguing that people are getting censored and the kids are wrong and bad, and when I asked him what comedy we're losing, who's quitting and being silenced (outside of the handful of middle-aged multimillionaires who refuse to play colleges but still have book and movie and TV deals) and he started calling me names. Because I'm a brainwashed sheep and whatnot.
posted by elr at 2:13 PM on February 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
He's an improv dork in Chicago. I'm an improv dork in Chicago. We know each other through are actual day jobs but probably share a glimmer of hope that we'll be professional comedians some day (unlikely. I think we're both too old to break out)
Anyway I was arguing that anything that makes comedians think even a little bit more about the jokes they're crafting results in better jokes. He was arguing that people are getting censored and the kids are wrong and bad, and when I asked him what comedy we're losing, who's quitting and being silenced (outside of the handful of middle-aged multimillionaires who refuse to play colleges but still have book and movie and TV deals) and he started calling me names. Because I'm a brainwashed sheep and whatnot.
posted by elr at 2:13 PM on February 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
Not just reinforce sensibilities but guys like Ralphie May beat the drums loud and hard about 15 years ago, ridiculing/threatening anyone opposed to the invasion of Iraq. He can be really funny but he was an absolute shit at that moment in time.
posted by bonobothegreat at 2:33 PM on February 24, 2016
posted by bonobothegreat at 2:33 PM on February 24, 2016
I would actually like to hear some examples of the "tough" jokes that are offensive yet also very funny and allow an audience catharsis.
I don't think the offensive jokes are necessarily tough and cathartic. I was 8 or 9 when I watched Jonathon Harris playing Zachary Smith on Lost in Space. Memory is a funny thing, but It seems to me like I didn't really know that I was gay, but I did know somehow Harris playing on broad gay stereotypes was mocking people like me and that I shouldn't find it funny. But I did find it funny, and that was probably the first, but certainly not the last time a comic gay stereotype made me laugh.
It doesn't always work. I remember Sean Hayes playing Jack McFarland on Will & Grace was lauded by many in the LGBT community for bringing a positive image of a gay man to mainstream America, but I found that offensive and not funny at all.
I think Dave Chappelle is an interesting example as well. From what I understand, he grew to believe the a segment of his white audience found his comedy appealing because it reinforced their negative stereotypes of African-Americans, and that had a lot to do with his decision to walk away from the show and the millions of dollars he was earning from it. And I can easily see what people are talking about when they point to that.
But I found The Chappelle Show consistently amazing, and some of the routines that best illustrated the possibility of a racist reading of them--like the Charlie Murphy True Hollywood Stories bits about Rick James--were hilarious.
Also, "offensive" is limited to racist, sexist or homophobic. The Aristocrats is two-hours of intentionally offensive material, and I thought of that was very funny as well. I guess my experience with this whole issue is not as cut and dried as others seem to have.
posted by layceepee at 2:36 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think the offensive jokes are necessarily tough and cathartic. I was 8 or 9 when I watched Jonathon Harris playing Zachary Smith on Lost in Space. Memory is a funny thing, but It seems to me like I didn't really know that I was gay, but I did know somehow Harris playing on broad gay stereotypes was mocking people like me and that I shouldn't find it funny. But I did find it funny, and that was probably the first, but certainly not the last time a comic gay stereotype made me laugh.
It doesn't always work. I remember Sean Hayes playing Jack McFarland on Will & Grace was lauded by many in the LGBT community for bringing a positive image of a gay man to mainstream America, but I found that offensive and not funny at all.
I think Dave Chappelle is an interesting example as well. From what I understand, he grew to believe the a segment of his white audience found his comedy appealing because it reinforced their negative stereotypes of African-Americans, and that had a lot to do with his decision to walk away from the show and the millions of dollars he was earning from it. And I can easily see what people are talking about when they point to that.
But I found The Chappelle Show consistently amazing, and some of the routines that best illustrated the possibility of a racist reading of them--like the Charlie Murphy True Hollywood Stories bits about Rick James--were hilarious.
Also, "offensive" is limited to racist, sexist or homophobic. The Aristocrats is two-hours of intentionally offensive material, and I thought of that was very funny as well. I guess my experience with this whole issue is not as cut and dried as others seem to have.
posted by layceepee at 2:36 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I read this thread, and then I came home and opened up one of my Feiffer collections covering up through the early 80s. Right near the beginning:
[Older Man, grinning] Used to go to the vaudeville house - hear a good Rastus-Mandy story. Everyone LOVED 'em! NOBODY took it wrong.
[Frowning] Try to tell one today - everyone's offended.
[Grinning] Used to go to parties - Stayed up all night telling Hymie-Abie stories? LAUGHED? We coulda DIED! It was all in fun.
[Deeper frown] Try to tell one today - everyone gets offended.
[Smirking] Used to get together after a stag movie and tell Mick jokes, Chinaman jokes, Polack jokes, Limey jokes, Frog jokes - a MILLION laughs!
[Angry face] Try to tell 'em today - you get your head busted.
[Grumpy face] Used to do this imitation of a guy with a bad leg. A REGULAR RIOT! Try to imitate a cripple today - see what it gets you!
[Sad face] Humor is dead in this country.
posted by delfin at 2:46 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
[Older Man, grinning] Used to go to the vaudeville house - hear a good Rastus-Mandy story. Everyone LOVED 'em! NOBODY took it wrong.
[Frowning] Try to tell one today - everyone's offended.
[Grinning] Used to go to parties - Stayed up all night telling Hymie-Abie stories? LAUGHED? We coulda DIED! It was all in fun.
[Deeper frown] Try to tell one today - everyone gets offended.
[Smirking] Used to get together after a stag movie and tell Mick jokes, Chinaman jokes, Polack jokes, Limey jokes, Frog jokes - a MILLION laughs!
[Angry face] Try to tell 'em today - you get your head busted.
[Grumpy face] Used to do this imitation of a guy with a bad leg. A REGULAR RIOT! Try to imitate a cripple today - see what it gets you!
[Sad face] Humor is dead in this country.
posted by delfin at 2:46 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I first remember "political correctness" in the 1990s and it was distinctly used to make fun of the word "allegedly" being employed on news media when discussing criminal matters. Yes, following the presumption of innocence codified in US law and covering your ass from libel lawsuit and reporting the exact news as it currently is was "PC." Didn't Luntz dump this shitty term for "being precise and not a an asshole just because it's easy" on the masses?
posted by aydeejones at 2:49 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by aydeejones at 2:49 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think the article makes it pretty clear that by "offensive," they don't mean, like, fart jokes. Good point about Lenny Bruce in the thread too.
I remember Sean Hayes playing Jack McFarland on Will & Grace was lauded by many in the LGBT community for bringing a positive image of a gay man to mainstream America, but I found that offensive and not funny at all.
I'm with you on this general feeling; I'm actually not a big fan of Amy Schumer (or sometimes, Tina Fey) because I feel like a lot of their humor buys into negative stereotypes about women and invests in them for laughs, in a way that isn't sufficiently critical or inventive. (I respect the opinions of others on this though so I don't want to get into an argument about Schumer or Fey, both of them have done things that I really like, too.) I just think it's a big jump from Tina Fey or Amy Schumer to the kind of misogyny you get from, oh, insert random dude comedian here.
And I too like a lot of movies with comic female characters who are uncritically nonfeminist. I don't need to have an empowered, fully-fleshed out female character in a comedy to find her character funny (though it can help). I think it's when the humor gets ideological-- it's all about how feminists are too fat and ugly to get any dick, or don't gay people just make your skin crawl?-- that it's harder and harder to find a young audience that is going to hoot it up.
When it comes to representation in terms of character it is a balancing act, where unrepresented people naturally want to see themselves in media, but the first steps are usually baby steps, and it's a controversial thing.
And Seinfeld's joke about how scrolling on a mobile phone makes you look "gay" is just... I mean, that's just not the zeitgeist anymore. Not to say homophobia isn't alive and well, but that's not really a joke with its finger on the pulse.
I don't think your reading of the Chapelle situation is any different than his; I mean, I don't think he thought he was "accidentally" producing racist jokes, he just realized that white people were laughing at something other than what he intended. So he walked away. It's something I've noticed when making a slightly self-deprecating joke about being a woman, too... sometimes it gets the kind of laugh where you know they're laughing because you fit their idea of what subhumans women are. And I imagine Chapelle just realized he couldn't do that for money anymore.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:08 PM on February 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
I remember Sean Hayes playing Jack McFarland on Will & Grace was lauded by many in the LGBT community for bringing a positive image of a gay man to mainstream America, but I found that offensive and not funny at all.
I'm with you on this general feeling; I'm actually not a big fan of Amy Schumer (or sometimes, Tina Fey) because I feel like a lot of their humor buys into negative stereotypes about women and invests in them for laughs, in a way that isn't sufficiently critical or inventive. (I respect the opinions of others on this though so I don't want to get into an argument about Schumer or Fey, both of them have done things that I really like, too.) I just think it's a big jump from Tina Fey or Amy Schumer to the kind of misogyny you get from, oh, insert random dude comedian here.
And I too like a lot of movies with comic female characters who are uncritically nonfeminist. I don't need to have an empowered, fully-fleshed out female character in a comedy to find her character funny (though it can help). I think it's when the humor gets ideological-- it's all about how feminists are too fat and ugly to get any dick, or don't gay people just make your skin crawl?-- that it's harder and harder to find a young audience that is going to hoot it up.
When it comes to representation in terms of character it is a balancing act, where unrepresented people naturally want to see themselves in media, but the first steps are usually baby steps, and it's a controversial thing.
And Seinfeld's joke about how scrolling on a mobile phone makes you look "gay" is just... I mean, that's just not the zeitgeist anymore. Not to say homophobia isn't alive and well, but that's not really a joke with its finger on the pulse.
I don't think your reading of the Chapelle situation is any different than his; I mean, I don't think he thought he was "accidentally" producing racist jokes, he just realized that white people were laughing at something other than what he intended. So he walked away. It's something I've noticed when making a slightly self-deprecating joke about being a woman, too... sometimes it gets the kind of laugh where you know they're laughing because you fit their idea of what subhumans women are. And I imagine Chapelle just realized he couldn't do that for money anymore.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:08 PM on February 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
I had an object lesson in this subject a few nights ago. (I'm probably not going to do retold jokes any justice, delivery is important, please bear with me.) I saw Trevor Noah perform in Seattle. His opener, who is apparently the warm-up comic for The Daily Show, was atrocious. He started out by making fun of the sign-language interpreter, saying "she could be saying anything! You know what I like to do? I like to make them say 'Fuck'. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck." And she's just signing 'fuck' over and over, and he's cracking up, and most of the audience is laughing, but it was stupid and awful and cheap in exactly the way Paul F. Tompkins is describing here. It was therefore no surprise when he picked out an Iranian gentleman in the front row and started in on terrorist jibes.
So then, mercifully, Trevor Noah comes out, and now he starts with a joke about the sign-language interpreter. "She could be saying anything. She's communicating in a totally different way. She could be doing such a better job than I'm doing. 'This guy isn't funny. I don't know who he thinks he is, with these awful jokes. And why are all these other people laughing? You're not missing anything. Tell you what, I'm going to just do some of my own stuff.'" It was very funny and inclusive and self-deprecating without being mean to either the interpreter or himself, really. The rest of his set followed a similar pattern. He even managed to tell a funny joke about Indian accents, which is an otherwise sore subject with me.
The opener's jokes were aimed at the sign-language interpreter, making it seem weird to even have an interpreter, and he was cringingly awful. Trevor Noah's jokes were aimed at himself and respected the idea that sign language widened his audience. Both guys opened with similar material, but the targets were different, and so the feeling of "laughing at" vs. "laughing with" was cast in stark relief.
posted by Errant at 3:19 PM on February 24, 2016 [64 favorites]
So then, mercifully, Trevor Noah comes out, and now he starts with a joke about the sign-language interpreter. "She could be saying anything. She's communicating in a totally different way. She could be doing such a better job than I'm doing. 'This guy isn't funny. I don't know who he thinks he is, with these awful jokes. And why are all these other people laughing? You're not missing anything. Tell you what, I'm going to just do some of my own stuff.'" It was very funny and inclusive and self-deprecating without being mean to either the interpreter or himself, really. The rest of his set followed a similar pattern. He even managed to tell a funny joke about Indian accents, which is an otherwise sore subject with me.
The opener's jokes were aimed at the sign-language interpreter, making it seem weird to even have an interpreter, and he was cringingly awful. Trevor Noah's jokes were aimed at himself and respected the idea that sign language widened his audience. Both guys opened with similar material, but the targets were different, and so the feeling of "laughing at" vs. "laughing with" was cast in stark relief.
posted by Errant at 3:19 PM on February 24, 2016 [64 favorites]
Paul F Tompkins is a national treasure. That's all I have to say about that.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:20 PM on February 24, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:20 PM on February 24, 2016 [17 favorites]
layceepee: The Aristocrats is two-hours of intentionally offensive material, and I thought of that was very funny as well. I guess my experience with this whole issue is not as cut and dried as others seem to have.
For me, there's a scene in The Aristocrats that reinforces PFT's main point.
IIRC, Gilbert Gottfried recounts how he was starting in on a 9/11 joke and got "Too soon! Too soon!" as he waded into it. He immediately pivoted, and to avert disaster trotted out a particularly filthy version of "The Aristocrats."
That, folks, is the craft of comedy.
Rather than blaming it on the boogeyman of "political correctness," he realized he was bombing and went for a joke that's road-tested and time-honoured, and guaranteed to paper over his near-bomb because it's unforgettably filthy.
Now, contrast that with Michael Richards. He thinks he can do some crowd work in response to a heckler. That just ends up being him shouting a racial slur at the heckler over and over.
"Boy, I sure was funny on that scripted TV show. How hard can this standup thing be?"
Turns out...very hard if your audience says "You're not funny" and you don't have the chops to course correct or improvise based on that feedback. This is a sign that standup comedy is not the Gig For You.
Or, to invoke Steve Martin:
"Some people have a way with words. Other people just...
[BEAT LONG ENOUGH THAT THE SILENCE FEELS LIKE THE PUNCHLINE]
...Not have way, I guess."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:27 PM on February 24, 2016 [19 favorites]
For me, there's a scene in The Aristocrats that reinforces PFT's main point.
IIRC, Gilbert Gottfried recounts how he was starting in on a 9/11 joke and got "Too soon! Too soon!" as he waded into it. He immediately pivoted, and to avert disaster trotted out a particularly filthy version of "The Aristocrats."
That, folks, is the craft of comedy.
Rather than blaming it on the boogeyman of "political correctness," he realized he was bombing and went for a joke that's road-tested and time-honoured, and guaranteed to paper over his near-bomb because it's unforgettably filthy.
Now, contrast that with Michael Richards. He thinks he can do some crowd work in response to a heckler. That just ends up being him shouting a racial slur at the heckler over and over.
"Boy, I sure was funny on that scripted TV show. How hard can this standup thing be?"
Turns out...very hard if your audience says "You're not funny" and you don't have the chops to course correct or improvise based on that feedback. This is a sign that standup comedy is not the Gig For You.
Or, to invoke Steve Martin:
"Some people have a way with words. Other people just...
[BEAT LONG ENOUGH THAT THE SILENCE FEELS LIKE THE PUNCHLINE]
...Not have way, I guess."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:27 PM on February 24, 2016 [19 favorites]
The opener's jokes were aimed at the sign-language interpreter, making it seem weird to even have an interpreter, and he was cringingly awful. Trevor Noah's jokes were aimed at himself and respected the idea that sign language widened his audience. Both guys opened with similar material, but the targets were different, and so the feeling of "laughing at" vs. "laughing with" was cast in stark relief.
That's so perfect. Two people, working with the same material. One is skilled, the other a sad hack.
It's like giving some fine pieces of sashimi-grade tuna to a skilled sushi chef and some to a person who's just going to make a tuna salad sandwich out of it - and use Miracle Whip to do it.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:32 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
That's so perfect. Two people, working with the same material. One is skilled, the other a sad hack.
It's like giving some fine pieces of sashimi-grade tuna to a skilled sushi chef and some to a person who's just going to make a tuna salad sandwich out of it - and use Miracle Whip to do it.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:32 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
For me, humor peaked with the comedic stylings of the late, great, Mr. Myron Cohen.
posted by Chitownfats at 4:05 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Chitownfats at 4:05 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would actually like to hear some examples of the "tough" jokes that are offensive yet also very funny and allow an audience catharsis.
The Aristocrats! is as dirty and tough and offensive as the comedian wants to make it. There was a famous cathartic moment for it.
The film includes footage of Gilbert Gottfried's telling of the joke at a Comedy Central/New York Friars' Club roast of Hugh Hefner which had been almost entirely censored when aired on television. Taped not long after the September 11 attacks, the incident occurred at a time when, according to one of the commentators in the Aristocrats film, entertainers were uncertain how much comedy was allowed in the aftermath of the attacks. Gottfried followed Rob Schneider, who had received mixed results with his stand-up comedy performance in Hefner's honor. Gottfried began his performance with a joke in which he claimed to have to catch a late flight out of town but was worried because his flight "had a connection at the Empire State Building." The joke, a reference to 9/11, was poorly received by the audience, who showered Gottfried with boos and cries of "too soon." In response, Gottfried told an obscenity-filled rendition of the Aristocrats joke. According to the film, the telling was as much a cathartic experience for the audience as it was a shocking one, regardless of whether viewers were familiar with the joke or not. During his performance, Gottfried told the audience "They might have to clean this up for TV."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:34 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Aristocrats! is as dirty and tough and offensive as the comedian wants to make it. There was a famous cathartic moment for it.
The film includes footage of Gilbert Gottfried's telling of the joke at a Comedy Central/New York Friars' Club roast of Hugh Hefner which had been almost entirely censored when aired on television. Taped not long after the September 11 attacks, the incident occurred at a time when, according to one of the commentators in the Aristocrats film, entertainers were uncertain how much comedy was allowed in the aftermath of the attacks. Gottfried followed Rob Schneider, who had received mixed results with his stand-up comedy performance in Hefner's honor. Gottfried began his performance with a joke in which he claimed to have to catch a late flight out of town but was worried because his flight "had a connection at the Empire State Building." The joke, a reference to 9/11, was poorly received by the audience, who showered Gottfried with boos and cries of "too soon." In response, Gottfried told an obscenity-filled rendition of the Aristocrats joke. According to the film, the telling was as much a cathartic experience for the audience as it was a shocking one, regardless of whether viewers were familiar with the joke or not. During his performance, Gottfried told the audience "They might have to clean this up for TV."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:34 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would actually like to hear some examples of the "tough" jokes that are offensive yet also very funny and allow an audience catharsis.
A whole shitload of The Onion.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:37 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
A whole shitload of The Onion.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:37 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Stewart Lee's views on political correctness also seem relevant here.
posted by camcgee at 4:52 PM on February 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by camcgee at 4:52 PM on February 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
My point being that old jokes wear out, especially when they're no longer relevant. That's why, as mentioned above, Steve Martin is amazing. He was meta before meta was cool.
posted by valkane at 4:52 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by valkane at 4:52 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
A whole shitload of The Onion.
Oh, that's a much better example than mine. The September 26, 2001 issue is a priceless work of art.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:01 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh, that's a much better example than mine. The September 26, 2001 issue is a priceless work of art.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:01 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I also remember something a teacher was telling me about the importance of recognizing cultural norms beyond just reading your room, less as an ethical thing, and more from a economical, if-you-want-to-keep-getting-paying-gigs standpoint.
Paraphrasing: outside of other comedians, first dates, and bachelorette parties, a large chunk of your audience (as a successful, not famous comedian at a mainstream comedy club) will be (1) people who need cheering up because they're going through some shit, so don't be cavalier about rape, terminal illness, suicide, or recent national tragedies, and risk ruining a bunch of peoples' night, and (2) tourists, who are generally more conservative and more likely to call the club to complain, so same rules as before save the explicitly sequel scatalogical shit for the late show.
I feel a little for comedians with any degree of fame though, because it's gotta be harder to test material you're not sure about on a neutral audience. Something that maybe at one time would have bombed in front of a small crowd and been scrapped from the set could end up on YouTube the first time out.
posted by elr at 5:27 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Paraphrasing: outside of other comedians, first dates, and bachelorette parties, a large chunk of your audience (as a successful, not famous comedian at a mainstream comedy club) will be (1) people who need cheering up because they're going through some shit, so don't be cavalier about rape, terminal illness, suicide, or recent national tragedies, and risk ruining a bunch of peoples' night, and (2) tourists, who are generally more conservative and more likely to call the club to complain, so same rules as before save the explicitly sequel scatalogical shit for the late show.
I feel a little for comedians with any degree of fame though, because it's gotta be harder to test material you're not sure about on a neutral audience. Something that maybe at one time would have bombed in front of a small crowd and been scrapped from the set could end up on YouTube the first time out.
posted by elr at 5:27 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Cool Papa Bell: A whole shitload of The Onion.
No kidding. The Onion can be fucking brutal sometimes.
posted by brundlefly at 5:32 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
No kidding. The Onion can be fucking brutal sometimes.
posted by brundlefly at 5:32 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would actually like to hear some examples of the "tough" jokes that are offensive yet also very funny and allow an audience catharsis.
My favorite Chapelle sketch is this one: LINK. I'm not titling it because the title shouldn't be on my fingers or in my mouth. The entire joke is about how a slur changes when applied to a family of white people - and the part I like best is the absolute glee of Chapelle when he enters the sketch and just unleashes all these stereotypes against this white family (not to mention him and his sketch-wife later on). Chapelle prefaces it by touching on his reaction to having white fans approach him using that slur, and that was part of the inspiration for the sketch; he also talks about it on his (excellent) Inside the Actor's Studio session and how fans often removed the importance and necessary context and nuance of his sketches, which ultimately contributed to his leaving public life.
I'm never sure how I feel about laughing at this sketch. I know it's meant to be funny, I think I am identifying with Chapelle, but am I really? As a white person I (literally) have no skin in the game, so I'm not even sure how to assess it. And yet, every time I'm on the floor when I watch it. That smile on his face. His glee. The sense of turning the world on it's head; of making things RIGHT somehow... It gets me every time.
posted by Deoridhe at 6:31 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
My favorite Chapelle sketch is this one: LINK. I'm not titling it because the title shouldn't be on my fingers or in my mouth. The entire joke is about how a slur changes when applied to a family of white people - and the part I like best is the absolute glee of Chapelle when he enters the sketch and just unleashes all these stereotypes against this white family (not to mention him and his sketch-wife later on). Chapelle prefaces it by touching on his reaction to having white fans approach him using that slur, and that was part of the inspiration for the sketch; he also talks about it on his (excellent) Inside the Actor's Studio session and how fans often removed the importance and necessary context and nuance of his sketches, which ultimately contributed to his leaving public life.
I'm never sure how I feel about laughing at this sketch. I know it's meant to be funny, I think I am identifying with Chapelle, but am I really? As a white person I (literally) have no skin in the game, so I'm not even sure how to assess it. And yet, every time I'm on the floor when I watch it. That smile on his face. His glee. The sense of turning the world on it's head; of making things RIGHT somehow... It gets me every time.
posted by Deoridhe at 6:31 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Nothing makes me less interested in a comedian than a long diatribe about how political correctness ruins their act and they need the freedom to say whatever they want.
Yes, experimentation is completely part of the process of being a comedian. However, if you blame treating people as human beings as a detriment to your act as a whole your material sucks and you should go back to working in a call center or whatever.
Kliph Nesteroff's book The Comedians: Drunks, Thieves, Scoundrels, and the History of American Comedy is an excellent read, talking about how you can draw a straight line through the comedy of vaudeville to today, and watch how the audience, comedians, and craft changed over time. Well worth a read.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:39 PM on February 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yes, experimentation is completely part of the process of being a comedian. However, if you blame treating people as human beings as a detriment to your act as a whole your material sucks and you should go back to working in a call center or whatever.
Kliph Nesteroff's book The Comedians: Drunks, Thieves, Scoundrels, and the History of American Comedy is an excellent read, talking about how you can draw a straight line through the comedy of vaudeville to today, and watch how the audience, comedians, and craft changed over time. Well worth a read.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:39 PM on February 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
His opener, who is apparently the warm-up comic for The Daily Show, was atrocious.
OK, so this is not the first time I've heard about the warm-up comic for the The Daily Show being a hack who relies on punching down for his(?) humor. What the fuck? I mean, of all the shows to have someone like that on their payroll... does anyone know the story with this?
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:37 PM on February 24, 2016
OK, so this is not the first time I've heard about the warm-up comic for the The Daily Show being a hack who relies on punching down for his(?) humor. What the fuck? I mean, of all the shows to have someone like that on their payroll... does anyone know the story with this?
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:37 PM on February 24, 2016
The main framing seems so simple (esssentially "if you're not getting laughs, you're not being funny") is so simple it should be a truism. In many cases critics of "political correctness" seem to want to require people to laugh at, or at least respect, jokes they don't like.
The case where some people like a joke and some really hate it is admittedly a bit different, but again it's not like you can't offend anyone. The people you entertain laugh, the people you offend complain. Deal with it.
Along the same lines and somewhat on topic: Rules for Contrarians. 1. Do not whine. That is all.
Maybe not exactly on topic, but thematically related: Paul F. Tompkins on Yo, Is This Racist?
posted by mark k at 10:58 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
The case where some people like a joke and some really hate it is admittedly a bit different, but again it's not like you can't offend anyone. The people you entertain laugh, the people you offend complain. Deal with it.
Along the same lines and somewhat on topic: Rules for Contrarians. 1. Do not whine. That is all.
Maybe not exactly on topic, but thematically related: Paul F. Tompkins on Yo, Is This Racist?
posted by mark k at 10:58 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Those are good Onion examples, but I was thinking more of things like "African-American Community Terrorized by Ask Murderer," (which The Onion has taken down from its history, I now see, probably for the best) and "Mexicans Sweeping the Nation."
The first is absolutely a racist joke, though as far as those go a relatively harmless one. Relatively. Futurama had a very similar runner through the series where in the year 3000+ Fry was the only one left who pronounced it "ask." It makes sense that the site would burn that headline down, though. The latter is more in line with what we expect from them, initially gasp-worthy offensive, then just a dumb joke, then, on reflection, a straight-up call to recognize racial economic inequality in the U.S. That's the sort of joke I'm talking about.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:33 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
The first is absolutely a racist joke, though as far as those go a relatively harmless one. Relatively. Futurama had a very similar runner through the series where in the year 3000+ Fry was the only one left who pronounced it "ask." It makes sense that the site would burn that headline down, though. The latter is more in line with what we expect from them, initially gasp-worthy offensive, then just a dumb joke, then, on reflection, a straight-up call to recognize racial economic inequality in the U.S. That's the sort of joke I'm talking about.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:33 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's so perfect. Two people, working with the same material. One is skilled, the other a sad hack.
I sort of want to believe that Trevor Noah was backstage, heard the hackery, and improvised that beginning to rescue the show. It totally worked, for me anyway. When I saw Aamer Rahman, his opener was also a boring hack, but he was so bad that the whole audience lost interest and there wasn't any coming back for Rahman. (Conversely, I recently saw Hari Kondabolu, and his opener absolutely killed, as did he. You can do it, people!)
But yeah, while there's plenty of material to point to in terms of treating the same subject to wildly different results, it's not all that often that it's within half an hour of each other. My friend and I literally turned to each other simultaneously and said, "see, that's how you do it".
OK, so this is not the first time I've heard about the warm-up comic for the The Daily Show being a hack who relies on punching down for his(?) humor.
My understanding is that it's a different guy than the warm-up comic during the Stewart era, but from what I hear the Stewart warm-up had his share of moments. I would guess that a warm-up comic has basically two jobs: get people in a mood to laugh, and distract people from all the set dressing and such going on onstage. So it's just all crowdwork, they're not really doing a set. I honestly don't think this guy had one written joke in his entire bit, it was all shit like "What's your name? What? Say it again? Look, I don't have any idea how you say that. Where are you from? Nigeria, cool. You get an American name at customs? No? Well, now you're Bob. Say hi to Bob, everyone!" (uproarious laughter and applause, to my bewilderment)
I really can't express my distaste for this idiot enough. I wish I could remember his name so I could cuss him out properly. And he's Latino; proof that it's not just jerky white guys who are blind to their own garbage.
Maybe not exactly on topic, but thematically related: Paul F. Tompkins on Yo, Is This Racist?
I've largely fallen out of love with Yo, Is This Racist?, but that (early) episode of the podcast is outstanding and well worth multiple listens.
posted by Errant at 11:38 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I sort of want to believe that Trevor Noah was backstage, heard the hackery, and improvised that beginning to rescue the show. It totally worked, for me anyway. When I saw Aamer Rahman, his opener was also a boring hack, but he was so bad that the whole audience lost interest and there wasn't any coming back for Rahman. (Conversely, I recently saw Hari Kondabolu, and his opener absolutely killed, as did he. You can do it, people!)
But yeah, while there's plenty of material to point to in terms of treating the same subject to wildly different results, it's not all that often that it's within half an hour of each other. My friend and I literally turned to each other simultaneously and said, "see, that's how you do it".
OK, so this is not the first time I've heard about the warm-up comic for the The Daily Show being a hack who relies on punching down for his(?) humor.
My understanding is that it's a different guy than the warm-up comic during the Stewart era, but from what I hear the Stewart warm-up had his share of moments. I would guess that a warm-up comic has basically two jobs: get people in a mood to laugh, and distract people from all the set dressing and such going on onstage. So it's just all crowdwork, they're not really doing a set. I honestly don't think this guy had one written joke in his entire bit, it was all shit like "What's your name? What? Say it again? Look, I don't have any idea how you say that. Where are you from? Nigeria, cool. You get an American name at customs? No? Well, now you're Bob. Say hi to Bob, everyone!" (uproarious laughter and applause, to my bewilderment)
I really can't express my distaste for this idiot enough. I wish I could remember his name so I could cuss him out properly. And he's Latino; proof that it's not just jerky white guys who are blind to their own garbage.
Maybe not exactly on topic, but thematically related: Paul F. Tompkins on Yo, Is This Racist?
I've largely fallen out of love with Yo, Is This Racist?, but that (early) episode of the podcast is outstanding and well worth multiple listens.
posted by Errant at 11:38 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
The main framing seems so simple (esssentially "if you're not getting laughs, you're not being funny") is so simple it should be a truism. In many cases critics of "political correctness" seem to want to require people to laugh at, or at least respect, jokes they don't like.
Much like it's always the most offensive privileged people who come over all sensitive when you mildly question them, the touchiest comics are the ones who think they're so raw. I've never understood how someone can pride themselves on "being edgy" or "juggling with dynamite" and then get upset when they fall down or blow their fingers off.
posted by Errant at 11:42 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Much like it's always the most offensive privileged people who come over all sensitive when you mildly question them, the touchiest comics are the ones who think they're so raw. I've never understood how someone can pride themselves on "being edgy" or "juggling with dynamite" and then get upset when they fall down or blow their fingers off.
posted by Errant at 11:42 PM on February 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Errant: on set, the warm-up comic also will do some crowd-work to learn who'sout there and give the host a little something to work with (you'd see this a lot in the Stewart era, where seemingly nonsense references would get big laughs at the top of the show.)
posted by Navelgazer at 12:01 AM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Navelgazer at 12:01 AM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Kliph Nesteroff's book The Comedians: Drunks, Thieves, Scoundrels, and the History of American Comedy is an excellent read, talking about how you can draw a straight line through the comedy of vaudeville to today, and watch how the audience, comedians, and craft changed over time.
I've just finished this, and as someone who doesn't really regard themselves as a comedy buff (or an American, so I had no idea who a lot of the comics actually were), I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:03 AM on February 25, 2016
I've just finished this, and as someone who doesn't really regard themselves as a comedy buff (or an American, so I had no idea who a lot of the comics actually were), I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:03 AM on February 25, 2016
I feel people often have the odd idea that comedy isn't art.
By which I mean that the purpose of comedy is to make people laugh and anything else conveyed isn't important or relevant. In the context of a stand-up the "PC brigade" might critique a comic for the horrible ideas which underlay the joke. The "anti-PC" reaction is "this joke contains no ideas, it's just funny, why aren't you laughing?" And then onto ideas about "I'm being suppressed." The classic line being "relax, it's just a joke."
This dodge is often seen in mainstream comedy. A good example would be blockbuster rom-coms. These often embrace a very toxic view of relationships. There was an article flinging around a while ago on a study which found watching rom-coms increased your acceptance of stalking behaviors. But rom-coms are rarely discussed or critiqued on these terms. They are referred to as "just comedy" and therefore essentially harmless.
posted by Erberus at 4:41 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
By which I mean that the purpose of comedy is to make people laugh and anything else conveyed isn't important or relevant. In the context of a stand-up the "PC brigade" might critique a comic for the horrible ideas which underlay the joke. The "anti-PC" reaction is "this joke contains no ideas, it's just funny, why aren't you laughing?" And then onto ideas about "I'm being suppressed." The classic line being "relax, it's just a joke."
This dodge is often seen in mainstream comedy. A good example would be blockbuster rom-coms. These often embrace a very toxic view of relationships. There was an article flinging around a while ago on a study which found watching rom-coms increased your acceptance of stalking behaviors. But rom-coms are rarely discussed or critiqued on these terms. They are referred to as "just comedy" and therefore essentially harmless.
posted by Erberus at 4:41 AM on February 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
See, I take the completely opposite view. It IS art, and therefore should be given the space to explore, with not much matter as to where it leads, because there is value even in the grotesque.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:48 AM on February 25, 2016
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:48 AM on February 25, 2016
I mean, Goya is often grotesque or offensive to his contemporary norms, but no reasonable person is going to look at Saturn Devouring His Child or La maja desnuda and then go out and lobby for a bill banning trans people from bathrooms.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:10 AM on February 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 8:10 AM on February 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's worth watching the Stewart Lee clip for his notes!
I’ve seen people online saying this slogan was never used, and as it was before my birth how could I remember it if it was. It was used, in 1964 by the Tory candidate Peter Griffiths, and I remember it still being used by grumpy Brummies where I grew up in the early seventies while they were out shopping for bananas to throw at black Aston Villa players. The granddaughter of Patrick Gordon Walker, the Labour MP who lost his seat to Griffiths as a result of his racist campaign, contacted me having seen the show live to say how much she liked the bit. The reason young people assumed these bits were made up was because, I think, nobody under thirty would believe that they ever could have happened, living as they do in a society that has, at least cosmetically, benefited from political correctness.posted by asok at 8:41 AM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Films such as these posit the idea that homosexuality is the funniest thing you can even imagine." –Paul F. Tompkins as Werner Herzog, on the possibility of directing Grown-Ups 3
(if anything clinched me as a PFT fan, it was this)
posted by Eideteker at 9:14 AM on February 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
(if anything clinched me as a PFT fan, it was this)
posted by Eideteker at 9:14 AM on February 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
But rom-coms are rarely discussed or critiqued on these terms. They are referred to as "just comedy" and therefore essentially harmless.
I almost exclusively discuss romcoms in this context, and as part of internalized misogyny and something which reinforces patriarchal norms about inequal relationships, but it might be a feminism thing (and part of why I loathe most romcoms). There are a few I like (He's Just Not That Into You comes to mind), but the vast majority of them are so cringingly horrific I can't watch (see also: 70% of romances in TV Comedies). This is a major topic for feminists who consume and enjoy pop culture, and undoubtably part of the development of the "your favs are problematic" approach to loving things.
Granted, if I discuss this with people outside of that community, they will usually throw out a "it's just a movie" or "it's just a joke" rational, but I would argue the dismissal of anything as essentially harmless in pop culture is about reinforcing the status quo and undermining people who have valid critiques of contemporary culture, which is why critiquing pop culture gets the simultaneous strong emotional pushback + "this really isn't important" framing (see also: gaming critique).
posted by Deoridhe at 10:41 AM on February 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
I almost exclusively discuss romcoms in this context, and as part of internalized misogyny and something which reinforces patriarchal norms about inequal relationships, but it might be a feminism thing (and part of why I loathe most romcoms). There are a few I like (He's Just Not That Into You comes to mind), but the vast majority of them are so cringingly horrific I can't watch (see also: 70% of romances in TV Comedies). This is a major topic for feminists who consume and enjoy pop culture, and undoubtably part of the development of the "your favs are problematic" approach to loving things.
Granted, if I discuss this with people outside of that community, they will usually throw out a "it's just a movie" or "it's just a joke" rational, but I would argue the dismissal of anything as essentially harmless in pop culture is about reinforcing the status quo and undermining people who have valid critiques of contemporary culture, which is why critiquing pop culture gets the simultaneous strong emotional pushback + "this really isn't important" framing (see also: gaming critique).
posted by Deoridhe at 10:41 AM on February 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
they will usually throw out a "it's just a movie" or "it's just a joke"
This is an attitude I simply cannot stand. Nothing is just itself. Even the crappiest of art is communicating something about the world, and in return the lens we view the world with is shaped through the lens of the art we consume. That doesn't mean you can't consume cheap, junk food entertainment, but in order to live our lives as anything more sophisticated than mere sponges we need to approach everything we consume with a critical eye.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:29 PM on February 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is an attitude I simply cannot stand. Nothing is just itself. Even the crappiest of art is communicating something about the world, and in return the lens we view the world with is shaped through the lens of the art we consume. That doesn't mean you can't consume cheap, junk food entertainment, but in order to live our lives as anything more sophisticated than mere sponges we need to approach everything we consume with a critical eye.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:29 PM on February 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I would actually like to hear some examples of the "tough" jokes...
Chris Rock, on his album "Roll With the New", the track is called "Niggas Vs. Black People". It's incredible in and of itself. Nuanced, passionate, deep, thoughtful, angry, and tough as hell: all of the best of comedy.
The button on it, later on the CD, presaged Chapelle's abrupt departure from his own show. There's a sketch where Rock is leaving the club and talking with fans about his act and Jim Breuer plays an oblivious bro who says "I get it, man, I totally hate niggers too." Follow by sounds of shock, anger, and a thorough and vicious beat-down. It's pre-derailing dudebros who think they can use that word because their favorite comic used that word, without any appreciation of context.
posted by aureliobuendia at 12:43 PM on February 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Chris Rock, on his album "Roll With the New", the track is called "Niggas Vs. Black People". It's incredible in and of itself. Nuanced, passionate, deep, thoughtful, angry, and tough as hell: all of the best of comedy.
The button on it, later on the CD, presaged Chapelle's abrupt departure from his own show. There's a sketch where Rock is leaving the club and talking with fans about his act and Jim Breuer plays an oblivious bro who says "I get it, man, I totally hate niggers too." Follow by sounds of shock, anger, and a thorough and vicious beat-down. It's pre-derailing dudebros who think they can use that word because their favorite comic used that word, without any appreciation of context.
posted by aureliobuendia at 12:43 PM on February 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
aureliobuendia: Rock has also famously regretted that bit more than any other, because of the way it was appropriated by folks like the Jim Breuer character you mention.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:52 PM on February 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 12:52 PM on February 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
no reasonable person is going to look at Saturn Devouring His Child or La maja desnuda and then go out and lobby for a bill banning trans people from bathrooms.
You realize that banning books for political correctness is a thing, right? Huckleberry Finn, for example.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:30 PM on February 25, 2016
You realize that banning books for political correctness is a thing, right? Huckleberry Finn, for example.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:30 PM on February 25, 2016
Of course I realise that. But you're also the only person in this thread talking about banning books.
posted by tobascodagama at 3:41 PM on February 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 3:41 PM on February 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
Is it really political correctness and/or censorship that some people are saying "I don't like the comedy of XYZ because they're racist" or whatever? A personal preference isn't exactly political correctness.
Even if they say "I don't think other people should be fans of XYZ" or "We should have a boycott of XYZ", it still doesn't really rise to the level of censorship.
Different comedians have different audiences. Some comedians that are hilarious to one audience are offensive to another.
posted by theorique at 1:02 PM on February 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Even if they say "I don't think other people should be fans of XYZ" or "We should have a boycott of XYZ", it still doesn't really rise to the level of censorship.
Different comedians have different audiences. Some comedians that are hilarious to one audience are offensive to another.
posted by theorique at 1:02 PM on February 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
the simultaneous strong emotional pushback + "this really isn't important" framing (see also: gaming critique).YES. And the equivocation that it's art if I want to laud it, to express admiration of men who display skill in hitting my particular buttons exactly as I want them hit, to perform my affirmational fandom by making giant lists of references and memorizing experiences and using those memorized facts to perform dominance, but then if someone starts de-centering the text and talking about it as a set of patterns that also exist elsewhere, then now what are you talking about, it's just a ______, of course you don't get it because women have no sense of fun. And "it's just a mechanism for providing fun" --
I feel people often have the odd idea that comedy isn't art.-- as a baffling shield against only certain kinds of attentions.
By which I mean that the purpose of comedy is to make people laugh and anything else conveyed isn't important or relevant.
posted by brainwane at 5:45 PM on February 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
« Older Is heavy metal the new form of world music? | Dr. Carla Hayden could be the #nextLOC Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
The full headline was "In Comedy, Nothing Is Off Limits, but Political Correctness Does Make for Better Jokes," by the way--I couldn't find anything resembling "Political correctness makes comedy better" in TFA. Where did you get that?
posted by ostranenie at 11:04 AM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]