According to United States law, fetuses are not people.
May 16, 2016 8:23 AM Subscribe
"Indiana may not legally be able to declare fetuses human in life. But in death, apparently, it can." Among a host of other restrictions, Indiana House Bill 1337 makes it illegal to dispose of fetal remains as medical waste: As of July 1, whether aborted or miscarried, they must be transported to a funeral home and cremated or buried.
The bill was signed by Gov. Mike Pence on March 24, "behind closed doors and without a public-signing ceremony."
Indiana, which already had some of the most stringent abortion restrictions in the United States, has also now become the second state to ban abortion if it is sought due to the diagnosis or potential diagnosis of fetal genetic abnormalities. An exception is made for lethal anomalies that will result in the death of the child no more than three months after birth; in these cases, a woman is required to review information about perinatal hospice services before being allowed to terminate her pregnancy.
The American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana (ACLU-IN) and Planned Parenthood of Indiana and Kentucky (PPINK) have filed a joint lawsuit seeking an injunction, claiming HB1337 violates due process and equal protection under the Fourteenth Amendment as well as First Amendment rights of free speech.
If you're in Indiana and on your period, you might also consider giving Gov. Pence's office a call with any and all updates on the current status of your reproductive system.
The bill was signed by Gov. Mike Pence on March 24, "behind closed doors and without a public-signing ceremony."
Indiana, which already had some of the most stringent abortion restrictions in the United States, has also now become the second state to ban abortion if it is sought due to the diagnosis or potential diagnosis of fetal genetic abnormalities. An exception is made for lethal anomalies that will result in the death of the child no more than three months after birth; in these cases, a woman is required to review information about perinatal hospice services before being allowed to terminate her pregnancy.
The American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana (ACLU-IN) and Planned Parenthood of Indiana and Kentucky (PPINK) have filed a joint lawsuit seeking an injunction, claiming HB1337 violates due process and equal protection under the Fourteenth Amendment as well as First Amendment rights of free speech.
If you're in Indiana and on your period, you might also consider giving Gov. Pence's office a call with any and all updates on the current status of your reproductive system.
From the ACLU link: Specifically, it prohibits abortions if the sole reason for the abortion is the fetus's race, color, national origin, ancestry, sex or diagnosis of a statutorily-defined "disability" or "potential diagnosis" of a "disability."
That sounds like some unconstitutional personhood to me.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:29 AM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
That sounds like some unconstitutional personhood to me.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:29 AM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mike Pence is in a hole and just can't stop digging. Not a bright man.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:31 AM on May 16, 2016
posted by leotrotsky at 8:31 AM on May 16, 2016
why is humanity so fucking disgusting
posted by poffin boffin at 8:31 AM on May 16, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:31 AM on May 16, 2016 [19 favorites]
The bill was signed by Gov. Mike Pence on March 24, "behind closed doors and without a public-signing ceremony
Because in his re-election campaign -- which has already kicked off, indicating some trepidation about his chances in November -- he's talking about jobs and publicly de-emphasizing social issues. You know, the ones he's using to throw red meat to his conservative evangelical base on the sly.
posted by Gelatin at 8:31 AM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Because in his re-election campaign -- which has already kicked off, indicating some trepidation about his chances in November -- he's talking about jobs and publicly de-emphasizing social issues. You know, the ones he's using to throw red meat to his conservative evangelical base on the sly.
posted by Gelatin at 8:31 AM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, don't bother to call the Governor's office. The fact that he signed it closed door means he knows it's unpopular. Go here instead:
John Gregg for Governor
Pence came pretty close to losing last time, and the major Republican donors in the state are either neutral this time around, or actively not supporting him. He's squandered pretty much all the good will that Mitch Daniels built up with the moderate business-friendly Republicans in the state.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:33 AM on May 16, 2016 [18 favorites]
John Gregg for Governor
Pence came pretty close to losing last time, and the major Republican donors in the state are either neutral this time around, or actively not supporting him. He's squandered pretty much all the good will that Mitch Daniels built up with the moderate business-friendly Republicans in the state.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:33 AM on May 16, 2016 [18 favorites]
Oh, hey, as long as we're playing Calvinball with Supreme Court rulings and women's reproductive health and the definitions of very established terms, why stop here? If that fetus is a person, it's got all sorts of rights we haven't considered! Where's its tax deduction as a dependent in the state of Indiana? Do we get to count it as a citizen for the purposes of redistricting? Does it count toward per capita reporting about the state? If the fetus is unwanted, but it's legally a person and so an abortion is prohibitively difficult to obtain, can we just get the sheriff to serve an eviction?
We'll consider your "medical waste" bill as soon as you've shored up all the other holes in the law, bugfuck crazy misogynist legislators.
posted by Mayor West at 8:33 AM on May 16, 2016 [95 favorites]
We'll consider your "medical waste" bill as soon as you've shored up all the other holes in the law, bugfuck crazy misogynist legislators.
posted by Mayor West at 8:33 AM on May 16, 2016 [95 favorites]
Indiana, of course, will not be providing women who carry fetuses with anomalies to term with any kind of financial, medical or psychological support during that pregnancy/birth/raising of that child. That would be laws which help women, which is an illegitimate use of government.
Unlike these laws which merely inconvenience, harass and punish women, a wholly legitimate function of government.
posted by emjaybee at 8:34 AM on May 16, 2016 [135 favorites]
Unlike these laws which merely inconvenience, harass and punish women, a wholly legitimate function of government.
posted by emjaybee at 8:34 AM on May 16, 2016 [135 favorites]
The law makes it a crime to perform an abortion if a doctor knows that a woman is seeking an abortion "solely because of: (1) the race, color, national origin, ancestry, or sex of the fetus; or (2) a diagnosis or potential diagnosis of the fetus having Down syndrome or any other disability."
'Luckily', that little qualifier of 'solely' completely neuters the provision. Did a woman have an abortion solely for those reasons? Of course not -- it would be one reason among many.
Surprised this actually got past legal review. That's one hell of a slip-up (if it was).
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:34 AM on May 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
'Luckily', that little qualifier of 'solely' completely neuters the provision. Did a woman have an abortion solely for those reasons? Of course not -- it would be one reason among many.
Surprised this actually got past legal review. That's one hell of a slip-up (if it was).
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:34 AM on May 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I propose a counter-bill which mandates every male who supported this bill be forced to conduct funerals and burials for each individual spermatozoa that dies every time he jerks off to whatever loathesome thoughts fill his miserable mind.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:36 AM on May 16, 2016 [68 favorites]
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:36 AM on May 16, 2016 [68 favorites]
Capt. Renault: it's not meant to be enforceable. It's a sop to the ignorant. It's dead letter on the HIPAA violation issues alone.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:36 AM on May 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 8:36 AM on May 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
Mike Pence is in a hole and just can't stop digging. Not a bright man.
Expanding on my previous comment, while I am not at all plugged into evangelical conservative circles, if memory serves me correctly they are Not Happy At All about what they perceive to be a loss in the so-called Religious Freedom law fracas, which itself was meant to salve their wounded feelings over same-sex marriage becoming the law of the land.
Unlike his predecessor, Mitch "Deficits" Daniels, I doubt Pence can afford to take evangelical / conservative support for granted, and he probably perceives a need to spark enthusiasm. (Which means a defeat in the courts -- it'd go to Judge Richard Posner's circuit again, and he has not lately seemed in the mood to accept movement conservative nonsense since getting suckered on the voter ID law -- serves him just as well, if not better.)
posted by Gelatin at 8:37 AM on May 16, 2016
Expanding on my previous comment, while I am not at all plugged into evangelical conservative circles, if memory serves me correctly they are Not Happy At All about what they perceive to be a loss in the so-called Religious Freedom law fracas, which itself was meant to salve their wounded feelings over same-sex marriage becoming the law of the land.
Unlike his predecessor, Mitch "Deficits" Daniels, I doubt Pence can afford to take evangelical / conservative support for granted, and he probably perceives a need to spark enthusiasm. (Which means a defeat in the courts -- it'd go to Judge Richard Posner's circuit again, and he has not lately seemed in the mood to accept movement conservative nonsense since getting suckered on the voter ID law -- serves him just as well, if not better.)
posted by Gelatin at 8:37 AM on May 16, 2016
As a funeral director, I find this reprehensible. As a human, I find it grotesque.
posted by ColdChef at 8:40 AM on May 16, 2016 [140 favorites]
posted by ColdChef at 8:40 AM on May 16, 2016 [140 favorites]
According to tonycpsu, Gov. Mike Pence, Rep. Casey Cox, Rep. Peggy Mayfield, Rep. Ronald Bacon, Rep. Chris Judy, Sen. R Michael Young, Sen. Travis Holdman, Sen. Liz Brown, Sen. Jim Banks, Sen. James Tomes, Sen. Dennis Kruse, Sen. Pete Miller, Sen. Scott Schneider, Sen. Brent Waltz, and Sen. Brent Steele are not people.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:45 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 8:45 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
So, basically, any possibility of using fetal tissue for medical research is nixed at this point, right? Do you have to register your fetus as an organ donor?
posted by Chuffy at 8:46 AM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 8:46 AM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've got extended family that were at a Carmel Chamber of Commerce meeting a few months back that Pence attended; they report he couldn't get the time of day. And that's horrifying for a Republican governor- that should be his home base, his place of power, and instead nobody wants anything to do with him. So he's going hard on the other despicable side of the Republican coalition, the side that is in favor of anything that sticks it to women, to Latinos, to blacks, to LGBT people, in hopes that if he throws them enough red meat it'll keep them engaged and riled up to vote in November.
And you know? It might fucking work. God damn us all.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:47 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
And you know? It might fucking work. God damn us all.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:47 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
BUT WAIT ARE FETUSES SUBJECT TO CAMPAIGN FINANCE LAWS
posted by dersins at 8:48 AM on May 16, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by dersins at 8:48 AM on May 16, 2016 [12 favorites]
who pays for all this? who pays for the transport, who pays for the funerals? certainly not the state.
where is my app to launch antichoicers into the sun
posted by poffin boffin at 8:52 AM on May 16, 2016 [33 favorites]
where is my app to launch antichoicers into the sun
posted by poffin boffin at 8:52 AM on May 16, 2016 [33 favorites]
This is so monstrous. I can't even wrap my head around it. So in Indiana, it's illegal to abort a fetus that has the gene for Tay-Sachs, because kids with Tay-Sachs typically don't die until they're two or three years old? On what planet is that humane or compassionate?
I'm also curious about whether they have any idea how common early-pregnancy miscarriage is. A lot of women miscarry before they even know they're pregnant. Basically, if your period is late and then you get a heavy period, you'd better give that thing a proper burial, because it's possible you miscarried. I kind of dare women to do it. That would be fun.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:55 AM on May 16, 2016 [28 favorites]
I'm also curious about whether they have any idea how common early-pregnancy miscarriage is. A lot of women miscarry before they even know they're pregnant. Basically, if your period is late and then you get a heavy period, you'd better give that thing a proper burial, because it's possible you miscarried. I kind of dare women to do it. That would be fun.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:55 AM on May 16, 2016 [28 favorites]
I'm also curious about whether they have any idea how common early-pregnancy miscarriage is
It's a fact about human reproduction, so my money is on "no."
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:58 AM on May 16, 2016 [83 favorites]
It's a fact about human reproduction, so my money is on "no."
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:58 AM on May 16, 2016 [83 favorites]
I....I kind of feel like my head is going to explode in flames like Ghost Rider. What I wouldn't give to have the Penance Stare, just for election season.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:59 AM on May 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 8:59 AM on May 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've got extended family that were at a Carmel Chamber of Commerce meeting a few months back that Pence attended; they report he couldn't get the time of day. And that's horrifying for a Republican governor- that should be his home base, his place of power, and instead nobody wants anything to do with him
For those who don't know, Carmel is basically Eagleton; it's a wealthy, overwhelmingly Republican northern suburb of Indianapolis.
Pence is toxic because he's proven to be so stupid and ham-fisted in his promotion of conservative social policy that he's basically anti-business at this point. The Chambers of Commerce (and major employers), who are trying to sell Indiana to folks as a place to move and grow, are not happy about that.
I'm sure they were thanking goodness for North Carolina and their stupid toilets; but now he's gone and dragged Indiana back into the bigot spotlight, again.
Just. So. Dumb.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:01 AM on May 16, 2016 [13 favorites]
For those who don't know, Carmel is basically Eagleton; it's a wealthy, overwhelmingly Republican northern suburb of Indianapolis.
Pence is toxic because he's proven to be so stupid and ham-fisted in his promotion of conservative social policy that he's basically anti-business at this point. The Chambers of Commerce (and major employers), who are trying to sell Indiana to folks as a place to move and grow, are not happy about that.
I'm sure they were thanking goodness for North Carolina and their stupid toilets; but now he's gone and dragged Indiana back into the bigot spotlight, again.
Just. So. Dumb.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:01 AM on May 16, 2016 [13 favorites]
Not just miscarriage but implantation failure too. Ladies, your bodies can commit crimes of their own accord. In fact couples who are having trouble getting pregnant may actually be committing a crime in the course of failing to conceive.
posted by XMLicious at 9:04 AM on May 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 9:04 AM on May 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
What a clustercuss. Are we in a Don DeLillo novel or what?
posted by Bob Regular at 9:06 AM on May 16, 2016
posted by Bob Regular at 9:06 AM on May 16, 2016
Pence is toxic because he's proven to be so stupid and ham-fisted in his promotion of conservative social policy that he's basically anti-business at this point.
The so-called "religious freedom" bill Pence signed incorporated that odious "this state law supersedes all local and city civil rights ordinances, courtesy of the party of small government and local control" language that's proved so popular in places like North Carolina and Texas. Part of the reason he was forced to back down and sign a partial repeal is that nullifying Indianapolis' equal-rights statues didn't sit well with big corporations like Eli Lilly, which is headquartered here.
I hope, actually, that similar pressure will eventually force the states that followed Indiana's lead in passing these rotten laws to capitulate as well.
posted by Gelatin at 9:08 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
The so-called "religious freedom" bill Pence signed incorporated that odious "this state law supersedes all local and city civil rights ordinances, courtesy of the party of small government and local control" language that's proved so popular in places like North Carolina and Texas. Part of the reason he was forced to back down and sign a partial repeal is that nullifying Indianapolis' equal-rights statues didn't sit well with big corporations like Eli Lilly, which is headquartered here.
I hope, actually, that similar pressure will eventually force the states that followed Indiana's lead in passing these rotten laws to capitulate as well.
posted by Gelatin at 9:08 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
The fact that this law is strange, and a deliberate imposition, is proof that abortion and the murder of a child are two very different things.
Miscarriages can be sad and tragic, but as a society we do not treat them the same way we treat the death of a child. Likewise, a woman terminating an unwanted pregnancy will never get the same intense reaction as the tragic cases when a woman intentionally kills her child.
The governor bending over backwards to sneak in a law that makes businesses pretend that an aborted or miscarried fetus is the same as a deceased baby -- if society really saw them as equivalent, then this law would not be the political symbol and deliberate imposition it is designed to be.
posted by neutralmojo at 9:09 AM on May 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
Miscarriages can be sad and tragic, but as a society we do not treat them the same way we treat the death of a child. Likewise, a woman terminating an unwanted pregnancy will never get the same intense reaction as the tragic cases when a woman intentionally kills her child.
The governor bending over backwards to sneak in a law that makes businesses pretend that an aborted or miscarried fetus is the same as a deceased baby -- if society really saw them as equivalent, then this law would not be the political symbol and deliberate imposition it is designed to be.
posted by neutralmojo at 9:09 AM on May 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
why is humanity so fucking disgusting
this can be traced directly to the stringent regulations banning post-natal abortion.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:10 AM on May 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
this can be traced directly to the stringent regulations banning post-natal abortion.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:10 AM on May 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
if society really saw them as equivalent, then this law would not be the political symbol and deliberate imposition it is designed to be
If society really saw them as equivalent, Republicans (like Indiana's own failed senate hopeful Richard Mourdock) wouldn't keep getting in trouble by eschewing exceptions for rape and incest, and fumbling questions about whether women should be punished for having abortions.
Society doesn't see them as equivalent, even if fringe religious groups and ultraconservatives do.
posted by Gelatin at 9:15 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
If society really saw them as equivalent, Republicans (like Indiana's own failed senate hopeful Richard Mourdock) wouldn't keep getting in trouble by eschewing exceptions for rape and incest, and fumbling questions about whether women should be punished for having abortions.
Society doesn't see them as equivalent, even if fringe religious groups and ultraconservatives do.
posted by Gelatin at 9:15 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
i can't wait for the first high school girl who gets arrested for having a heavy period in gym class to sue the state for 15 trillion dollars
posted by poffin boffin at 9:19 AM on May 16, 2016 [29 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 9:19 AM on May 16, 2016 [29 favorites]
Pence is an asshole. The closer we get to the election the more PENCE MUST GO signs I'm seeing...which is great.
One nice thing that has happened as a result of Pence being on that religious freedom bullshit is that a lot of businesses now have signs saying everyone is welcome and a bunch of cities have now introduced lgbtq non-discrimination ordinances. Yeah, it's a thing that should be handled at a state level but I'm glad cities are flipping off the state by introducing these ordinances at a local level.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 9:22 AM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
One nice thing that has happened as a result of Pence being on that religious freedom bullshit is that a lot of businesses now have signs saying everyone is welcome and a bunch of cities have now introduced lgbtq non-discrimination ordinances. Yeah, it's a thing that should be handled at a state level but I'm glad cities are flipping off the state by introducing these ordinances at a local level.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 9:22 AM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
i can't wait for the first high school girl who gets arrested for having a heavy period in gym class to sue the state for 15 trillion dollars
No. No no no no no no no. After Bei Bei Shuai and Purvi Patel I don't want the justice system of Indiana coming anywhere fucking near a high school kid.
posted by Talez at 9:22 AM on May 16, 2016 [20 favorites]
No. No no no no no no no. After Bei Bei Shuai and Purvi Patel I don't want the justice system of Indiana coming anywhere fucking near a high school kid.
posted by Talez at 9:22 AM on May 16, 2016 [20 favorites]
No. No no no no no no no. After Bei Bei Shuai and Purvi Patel I don't want the justice system of Indiana coming anywhere fucking near a high school kid.
As long as the kid in question is blonde, pretty, and Christian, it won't be a problem.
posted by cooker girl at 9:27 AM on May 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
As long as the kid in question is blonde, pretty, and Christian, it won't be a problem.
posted by cooker girl at 9:27 AM on May 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
I mean, it's truly lovely that there's been so much backlash from the business community about hateful legislation aimed at LGBT people, but is there any reason at all to think that there will be similar backlash against cruel legislation aimed at pregnant women? Has that ever happened anywhere?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:28 AM on May 16, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:28 AM on May 16, 2016 [13 favorites]
Jesus fucking Christ. And again, I wish I had considered midwifery as an option.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:28 AM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Sophie1 at 9:28 AM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I kinda wish we had a federal Department of You Said You Wanted This, You Assholes Law Enforcement who would take whatever absurd steps were necessary to ruthlessly enforce dumbfuck state and local laws.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:28 AM on May 16, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:28 AM on May 16, 2016 [18 favorites]
I keep hearing people talk about a class-based revolution in the USA. I think it's more likely that women are going to stage a revolution. Just point me to whichever barricade you want me on.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:30 AM on May 16, 2016 [37 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:30 AM on May 16, 2016 [37 favorites]
Mikey is trying hard to come under the gaze of the Eye of Trumpron as a possible VP candidate. I expect a whole lot more nuttery from him this summer. It wouldn't be a stretch for him, honestly.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:32 AM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 9:32 AM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't make any difference when women rise up as one and slay us all, but I just want to be on the record as saying I think this is bullshit, too.
posted by Mooski at 9:47 AM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Mooski at 9:47 AM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I taught an undergrad women's studies course on women's reproductive health a few years ago, and I used to keep in touch with the lead instructors on that course by sharing relevant bits of news and law changes that I came across. I eventually had to stop, because we were only ever communicating about sad, bad developments that directly impacted their own work as physicians who provide abortion and contraception services for their patients.
Most often the comments were along the lines of 'even though this is a terrible law that will not stand higher court scrutiny, so many women are going to suffer unnecessarily, and there are no silver linings.' And we would all agree and re-up our monthly giving to Planned Parenthood or NARAL or what have you, and then the next chapter of the ongoing handmaid-ization of America would pop up a short time later.
It is getting quite discouraging. I fear terribly how widespread the destruction of women's bodies and lives will be before these wildly inappropriate religious incursions into health care cease to have such political power.
posted by palindromic at 9:54 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Most often the comments were along the lines of 'even though this is a terrible law that will not stand higher court scrutiny, so many women are going to suffer unnecessarily, and there are no silver linings.' And we would all agree and re-up our monthly giving to Planned Parenthood or NARAL or what have you, and then the next chapter of the ongoing handmaid-ization of America would pop up a short time later.
It is getting quite discouraging. I fear terribly how widespread the destruction of women's bodies and lives will be before these wildly inappropriate religious incursions into health care cease to have such political power.
posted by palindromic at 9:54 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's not just Indiana, guys. This is a template. It will be copied elsewhere. It's already in the works elsewhere.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:56 AM on May 16, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:56 AM on May 16, 2016 [20 favorites]
iages can be sad and tragic, but as a society we do not treat them the same way we treat the death of a child.
Your society doesn't. Some do.
I kind of hate these discussions, because I always feel like even if you are pro-choice, which I am, there's only one acceptable way to be pro-choice.
If I had a miscarriage in a hospital and they disposed of my baby as medical waste, it would take multiple sedatives to get my hands from around the throat of the person who did it. The idea is monstrous to me and frankly scary.
I don't want to criminalize women, but facilities? What is the harm in saying facilities need to treat fetuses with respect?
posted by corb at 10:03 AM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Your society doesn't. Some do.
I kind of hate these discussions, because I always feel like even if you are pro-choice, which I am, there's only one acceptable way to be pro-choice.
If I had a miscarriage in a hospital and they disposed of my baby as medical waste, it would take multiple sedatives to get my hands from around the throat of the person who did it. The idea is monstrous to me and frankly scary.
I don't want to criminalize women, but facilities? What is the harm in saying facilities need to treat fetuses with respect?
posted by corb at 10:03 AM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't want to criminalize women, but facilities? What is the harm in saying facilities need to treat fetuses with respect?
There's nothing disrespectful about a woman's view that a fetus is not a human life.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:05 AM on May 16, 2016 [49 favorites]
There's nothing disrespectful about a woman's view that a fetus is not a human life.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:05 AM on May 16, 2016 [49 favorites]
If that fetus is a person, it's got all sorts of rights we haven't considered!
And they will protect those rights from conception to birth.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:08 AM on May 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
And they will protect those rights from conception to birth.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:08 AM on May 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
If I had a miscarriage in a hospital and they disposed of my baby as medical waste, it would take multiple sedatives to get my hands from around the throat of the person who did it.Then pass a law that says that women have to have the option of giving their fetus a burial. But that's not what this law says.
My religion is very, very clear that a fetus is not a person. Requiring us to treat fetal remains like human remains is a massive assault on our religious liberty. Does that bother you at all?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:08 AM on May 16, 2016 [75 favorites]
If I had a miscarriage in a hospital and they disposed of my baby as medical waste, it would take multiple sedatives to get my hands from around the throat of the person who did it. The idea is monstrous to me and frankly scary.
Then you should definitely ask them not to do that. As should anyone who feels similarly. Which they can do, anywhere in the country, right now. The nurses will probably ask you what you'd like done after the procedure; they did after my wife's miscarriage, certainly, and we live in the bluest part of the bluest state in the nation.
Someone who DOESN'T feel similarly, though, should not be forced to pay for yet another ridiculous obstacle placed between them and their desired medical outcome. Tagging that outcome as "monstrous" is not especially helpful, either.
posted by Mayor West at 10:08 AM on May 16, 2016 [64 favorites]
Then you should definitely ask them not to do that. As should anyone who feels similarly. Which they can do, anywhere in the country, right now. The nurses will probably ask you what you'd like done after the procedure; they did after my wife's miscarriage, certainly, and we live in the bluest part of the bluest state in the nation.
Someone who DOESN'T feel similarly, though, should not be forced to pay for yet another ridiculous obstacle placed between them and their desired medical outcome. Tagging that outcome as "monstrous" is not especially helpful, either.
posted by Mayor West at 10:08 AM on May 16, 2016 [64 favorites]
I don't want to criminalize women, but facilities? What is the harm in saying facilities need to treat fetuses with respect?
Because they already do. I had a miscarriage in a hospital in Indiana in 1997. They asked me what I wanted done with the remains and followed my wishes on same.
This bill is nothing more than another attempt to get rid of abortion rights altogether, through the back door.
posted by cooker girl at 10:09 AM on May 16, 2016 [56 favorites]
Because they already do. I had a miscarriage in a hospital in Indiana in 1997. They asked me what I wanted done with the remains and followed my wishes on same.
This bill is nothing more than another attempt to get rid of abortion rights altogether, through the back door.
posted by cooker girl at 10:09 AM on May 16, 2016 [56 favorites]
it's not like the only alternative to "purchase burial plot and coffin and full funeral" for a miscarriage is "just throw it in the garbage lol". as with everything else related to women's healthcare and reproductive issues, the choice should be left up to the individual woman, and abortions and miscarriages should not be automatically conflated as equivalent situations under a stupid oppressive misogynist law created solely to dehumanize and harm women.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:10 AM on May 16, 2016 [48 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:10 AM on May 16, 2016 [48 favorites]
It would also be a real disincentive for poor women to seek medical treatment for their miscarriage at a hospital, knowing that they would be on the hook for a costly 'service' that would not be covered by their health insurance.
posted by palindromic at 10:10 AM on May 16, 2016 [45 favorites]
posted by palindromic at 10:10 AM on May 16, 2016 [45 favorites]
covered by the health insurance that tHESE SAME PEOPLE WANT TO TAKE AWAY GOD HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO NOT SET THINGS ON FIRE
posted by poffin boffin at 10:11 AM on May 16, 2016 [56 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:11 AM on May 16, 2016 [56 favorites]
I had a spontaneous miscarriage at 11 weeks of a very, very wanted pregnancy. I was at home, and everything went in the toilet over the course of 8 hours. After the second or third trip to the toilet, I sort of wondered if I should be looking for a fetus, but thought better of it since it was not a person that I feel the need to bury, and it would be incredibly gross/upsetting to try and find anything at that point, so I continued to flush. That I could have been legally required to do that is just.. wow. I would have flushed regardless, but I shouldn't have had to think "I guess this makes me a criminal" on the worst day of my life.
posted by gatorae at 10:20 AM on May 16, 2016 [111 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 10:20 AM on May 16, 2016 [111 favorites]
miscarriages can be sad and tragic, but as a society we do not treat them the same way we treat the death of a child.
To be fair, quite a few women/families (mostly very religious) actually name their "babies" and even have services for them. There's also a thing in family portraiture where the photographer will add ghost imagery to the portrait, representing the "deceased". I kid you not.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:22 AM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
To be fair, quite a few women/families (mostly very religious) actually name their "babies" and even have services for them. There's also a thing in family portraiture where the photographer will add ghost imagery to the portrait, representing the "deceased". I kid you not.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:22 AM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can we airlift every woman out of Indiana as a temporary measure until civilization is restored?
posted by Space Kitty at 10:22 AM on May 16, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by Space Kitty at 10:22 AM on May 16, 2016 [18 favorites]
WHY DO PRIVILEGED WHITE MEN GET TO DECIDE THESE THINGS OMG THIS MAKES MY HEAD EXPLODE. How are women even REMOTELY letting this happen? Angry and sad and raging.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 10:26 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 10:26 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I would never criticize anyone for how they deal with a miscarriage. A lot of women (and men) do think of fetuses as babies and do want rituals that reflect that belief. I totally respect that, and I think we should all do whatever we can to help people grieve in whatever way is most meaningful to them. But this law doesn't give people the option. It forces it on people who don't want it. It could, in fact, exacerbate the pain of people who are grieving and don't want to grieve in that way. It's basically tormenting families who lose pregnancies to make a point about abortion, and that's wholly unacceptable.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:28 AM on May 16, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:28 AM on May 16, 2016 [33 favorites]
I had a miscarriage of a wanted pregnancy, and it would have taken multiple sedatives to get my hands off the throat of whoever was trying to force me into paying for unwanted funerary services.
posted by palindromic at 10:32 AM on May 16, 2016 [49 favorites]
posted by palindromic at 10:32 AM on May 16, 2016 [49 favorites]
My wife is seven months pregnant. Our baby has a name, a closet full of clothes, and a room with little sea creatures on the wall. If something (God forbid) happened now we would deal with it completely differently than if something had happened in November before any of that was true, and that should be our right. People will figure out how to deal with tragedy respectfully and appropriately, and the idea that we need a law to make sure that happens is insane.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:33 AM on May 16, 2016 [35 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:33 AM on May 16, 2016 [35 favorites]
Before this law when you had an abortion or miscarriage: your caregivers ask you what you want to happen after they treat you. This might include everything from "I don't want to see/hear about it" to "we are planning to have a funeral service".
After this law: you aren't allowed to chose what happens even if it means having to go thru a fake process of public grief (cremation or burial) for a "baby" you never wanted and might have only been carrying for traumatic reasons. Also it sounds like that abortion or miscarriage just got more expensive.
Good job Indiana! Even if it is a toothless, unenforceable law, it says a lot. The governor may have signed it quietly away from publicity but the legislature passed it. That's a lot of people supporting it.
posted by R343L at 10:35 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
After this law: you aren't allowed to chose what happens even if it means having to go thru a fake process of public grief (cremation or burial) for a "baby" you never wanted and might have only been carrying for traumatic reasons. Also it sounds like that abortion or miscarriage just got more expensive.
Good job Indiana! Even if it is a toothless, unenforceable law, it says a lot. The governor may have signed it quietly away from publicity but the legislature passed it. That's a lot of people supporting it.
posted by R343L at 10:35 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I always feel like even if you are pro-choice, which I am, there's only one acceptable way to be pro-choice.
Yes, it's almost as if "pro-choice" isn't limited to the choice to terminate the pregnancy, but also extends to the choice of what to do with the fetus after termination. Call yourself whatever you like, but being okay with the state stepping in to tell mothers what they are and aren't allowed to do with the fetus sounds to me like a very selective definition of pro-choice.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:36 AM on May 16, 2016 [23 favorites]
Yes, it's almost as if "pro-choice" isn't limited to the choice to terminate the pregnancy, but also extends to the choice of what to do with the fetus after termination. Call yourself whatever you like, but being okay with the state stepping in to tell mothers what they are and aren't allowed to do with the fetus sounds to me like a very selective definition of pro-choice.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:36 AM on May 16, 2016 [23 favorites]
Yeah, I get that, I'm just saying it would be nice if we could have space for some middle ground instead of being like "fetuses aren't babies or even human, this is OBVIOUS and society agrees it's not even kind of the same!" The way it was being discussed here made me think that previously your miscarriages were just treated as medical waste. I'm in the middle of trying right now and that would absolutely, if successful, keep me wondering whether or not to go to the hospital. I'm glad that got clarified by those who have some experience with it (though my deepest condolences for your loss).
At some point in the pro-choice debate, it feels like a lot of people doubled down on "fetuses aren't human" in the attempt to make it more acceptable to abort, and it really isn't based anywhere in science, like there's no magical stage of gestation before which is NotABaby and after which is DefinitelyABaby. And it's just so unnecessary. Like, it's okay to say "yes it's human, but Violinist Problem, you can't force me to gestate a human against my consent." That's totally fine! There's no need to hold the line 100% against personhood in order to hold the line on your body, your choice.
posted by corb at 10:36 AM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
At some point in the pro-choice debate, it feels like a lot of people doubled down on "fetuses aren't human" in the attempt to make it more acceptable to abort, and it really isn't based anywhere in science, like there's no magical stage of gestation before which is NotABaby and after which is DefinitelyABaby. And it's just so unnecessary. Like, it's okay to say "yes it's human, but Violinist Problem, you can't force me to gestate a human against my consent." That's totally fine! There's no need to hold the line 100% against personhood in order to hold the line on your body, your choice.
posted by corb at 10:36 AM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
What is the harm in saying facilities need to treat fetuses with respect?
The harm seems considerable, because the definition of "respect" that Indiana is using is arbitrary. Specifically, as arbitrary as required to ultimately restrict access to reproductive health care services. Which is to say that this is not so much about whether and how you want to treat fetuses with respect, but about people other than you — the state of Indiana — using that excuse as a means to control your access to health care.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:36 AM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
The harm seems considerable, because the definition of "respect" that Indiana is using is arbitrary. Specifically, as arbitrary as required to ultimately restrict access to reproductive health care services. Which is to say that this is not so much about whether and how you want to treat fetuses with respect, but about people other than you — the state of Indiana — using that excuse as a means to control your access to health care.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:36 AM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
why can't the facilities treat women with respect instead for a change.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:38 AM on May 16, 2016 [53 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:38 AM on May 16, 2016 [53 favorites]
There's no need to hold the line 100% against personhood in order to hold the line on your body, your choice.
There is a need, and that's because babies have rights.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:39 AM on May 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
There is a need, and that's because babies have rights.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:39 AM on May 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
it would be nice if we could have space for some middle ground
The middle ground was the status quo, where mothers chose what to do without the state compelling them to do something against their wishes. You're the one defending a position outside the mainstream, in which the choice is taken away, apparently on the basis of some people on the Internet not arguing their position in ways you approve of.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:41 AM on May 16, 2016 [36 favorites]
The middle ground was the status quo, where mothers chose what to do without the state compelling them to do something against their wishes. You're the one defending a position outside the mainstream, in which the choice is taken away, apparently on the basis of some people on the Internet not arguing their position in ways you approve of.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:41 AM on May 16, 2016 [36 favorites]
I'm just saying it would be nice if we could have space for some middle ground instead of being like "fetuses aren't babies or even human, this is OBVIOUS and society agrees it's not even kind of the same!"
We already had that middle ground here. As multiple people have pointed out, individuals could do as they chose following a miscarriage, according to their beliefs and their needs at the time.
It was Pence and his pals who took that middle ground away. They are the ones who are making unilateral statements and disrespecting belief -- even sincere beliefs like yours, corb, because they would be making all the decisions for you and your actual preferences wouldn't matter a whit.
posted by Gelatin at 10:43 AM on May 16, 2016 [12 favorites]
We already had that middle ground here. As multiple people have pointed out, individuals could do as they chose following a miscarriage, according to their beliefs and their needs at the time.
It was Pence and his pals who took that middle ground away. They are the ones who are making unilateral statements and disrespecting belief -- even sincere beliefs like yours, corb, because they would be making all the decisions for you and your actual preferences wouldn't matter a whit.
posted by Gelatin at 10:43 AM on May 16, 2016 [12 favorites]
And it's just so unnecessary. Like, it's okay to say "yes it's human, but Violinist Problem, you can't force me to gestate a human against my consent." That's totally fine! There's no need to hold the line 100% against personhood in order to hold the line on your body, your choice.
Except that the forced birth crowd are the ones who are moving the goalposts (thanks again, Anthony Kennedy!), including a number of laws declaring fetuses "persons" in order to outlaw abortion. "Your body, your choice" has been under constant attack. So while it may be distasteful, it is necessary, and will be until the fallout decision of the Republican Party to use abortion as a wedge issue has fully passed and a woman's choice to have an abortion is fully secured.
posted by Gelatin at 10:47 AM on May 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
Except that the forced birth crowd are the ones who are moving the goalposts (thanks again, Anthony Kennedy!), including a number of laws declaring fetuses "persons" in order to outlaw abortion. "Your body, your choice" has been under constant attack. So while it may be distasteful, it is necessary, and will be until the fallout decision of the Republican Party to use abortion as a wedge issue has fully passed and a woman's choice to have an abortion is fully secured.
posted by Gelatin at 10:47 AM on May 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'll also note that a great many pregnancies miscarry before the woman in question even realizes that she was pregnant and the miscarriage appears as nothing more than a possibly heavier than normal menstrual flow.
If this law were intended as anything other than a way to punish sluts, Indiana would be requiring all women in the state submit their menses to labs to determine which tampons are mere tampons and can be discarded and which are cotton coffins containing a Precious Baby™ that must be cremated or buried. Presumably at their own expense, after all if a person doesn't want to be spending thousands of dollars on lab fees a month they should have chosen to be born normal instead of female.
posted by sotonohito at 10:50 AM on May 16, 2016 [17 favorites]
If this law were intended as anything other than a way to punish sluts, Indiana would be requiring all women in the state submit their menses to labs to determine which tampons are mere tampons and can be discarded and which are cotton coffins containing a Precious Baby™ that must be cremated or buried. Presumably at their own expense, after all if a person doesn't want to be spending thousands of dollars on lab fees a month they should have chosen to be born normal instead of female.
posted by sotonohito at 10:50 AM on May 16, 2016 [17 favorites]
Fetuses have human tissues, but they don't all posses the necessary components to form into a fully developed human. Given the natural rate of miscarriage it may only be only 80% are viable. Pretending otherwise just gives cover the pro-kill women lobby (formerly known at pro-life).
posted by humanfont at 10:56 AM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 10:56 AM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'd also point out that, as I indicated earlier, there's a distinct possibility that Pence and his pals fully expect this law to get shot down by the courts as the obvious intrusion into a private matter it is, and use that decision (notwithstanding one likely to be handed down by a conservative Reagan appointee) to gin up outrage against "activist judges" and so drive turnout of Pence's fundamentalist base.
In that case, they'd be using this sensitive issue as a cynical election-year poly and exploiting the sincere beliefs of people like corb.
posted by Gelatin at 10:58 AM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
In that case, they'd be using this sensitive issue as a cynical election-year poly and exploiting the sincere beliefs of people like corb.
posted by Gelatin at 10:58 AM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
yeah, there's no gestational age threshold for this "must be buried or cremated" argument. I've had four miscarriages, all of them early enough that any "fetal remains" would have been measured in millimeters. What am I supposed to do here, empty my DivaCup into a Ziploc bag and take it to a funeral home? When I was bleeding out in the hospital (I needed a rhogam shot), would the hospital have been required to save the chux pads and have a religious figure say words over them?
This is MONSTROUS.
posted by KathrynT at 10:58 AM on May 16, 2016 [43 favorites]
This is MONSTROUS.
posted by KathrynT at 10:58 AM on May 16, 2016 [43 favorites]
> What am I supposed to do here, empty my DivaCup into a Ziploc bag and take it to
...The state house in Indiana! Directly to the governor's office! Because obviously, he is an expert in these matters - he should be able to inspect a menstrual cup of blood (or a sanitary pad, etc.) and identify fetal remains, if any. Right?
(There was a state legislator in Virginia who introduced a bill like this one a few years ago, and so many women sent in (fake) bloody pads and tampons that he pulled the bill.)
posted by rtha at 11:05 AM on May 16, 2016 [16 favorites]
...The state house in Indiana! Directly to the governor's office! Because obviously, he is an expert in these matters - he should be able to inspect a menstrual cup of blood (or a sanitary pad, etc.) and identify fetal remains, if any. Right?
(There was a state legislator in Virginia who introduced a bill like this one a few years ago, and so many women sent in (fake) bloody pads and tampons that he pulled the bill.)
posted by rtha at 11:05 AM on May 16, 2016 [16 favorites]
Well, the Indiana funeral industry lobby certainly got their money's worth in Indianapolis...
posted by jim in austin at 11:14 AM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 11:14 AM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Having a miscarriage varies a lot depending on gestational age, but it can be horrific. Blood everywhere. On the floor, in the toilet, everywhere. Some people lose litres of blood. They aren't always quick either - one of mine lasted almost eight weeks. Are people going to have to rummage around in the toilet to fish out all the bits? Take a Tupperware to work in case they pass anything solid? Store the remains in their fridge until they're sure it's all passed?
It's also not always obvious to the casual observer which bit is the fetus, which bit is the gestational sac, and what is just blood clot. Are we going to issue miscarrying women with some kind of visual guide? Or do they have to hang on to every blood clot just to be on the safe side? What if you ditch the wrong bit, do you still go to prison? To inflict this sort of psychological torture on already traumatised and grieving mothers is despicable.
posted by tinkletown at 11:14 AM on May 16, 2016 [30 favorites]
It's also not always obvious to the casual observer which bit is the fetus, which bit is the gestational sac, and what is just blood clot. Are we going to issue miscarrying women with some kind of visual guide? Or do they have to hang on to every blood clot just to be on the safe side? What if you ditch the wrong bit, do you still go to prison? To inflict this sort of psychological torture on already traumatised and grieving mothers is despicable.
posted by tinkletown at 11:14 AM on May 16, 2016 [30 favorites]
And to add to my point: over 1/3 of abortions in this country are performed at the same gestational range I was at during my miscarriages. If you bump it out to 8 weeks, where an embryo might be visible if you were looking for it but could also be easily overlooked, you're talking about nearly 2/3 of all abortions. So this isn't some kind of hypothetical edge case; nationwide, around a million pregnancies per year end before eight weeks, between miscarriage and abortion. And I'm not even sure if those statistics include chemical pregnancies or blighted ova, where the duration of the pregnancy is so brief that that any fetal tissue formed would be microscopic -- but man the Indiana law sure seems like it would still apply to those circumstances.
posted by KathrynT at 11:15 AM on May 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 11:15 AM on May 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
WICHITA, Kansas, Aug. 1 /Christian Newswire/ — Operation Rescue, one of the leading pro-life Christian activist organizations in the nation, is announcing plans to market the Grieve-a-Cup, a coffin-shaped menstrual cup for Indiana women who want to ensure that their monthly discharge is compliant with the law.posted by tonycpsu at 11:15 AM on May 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
I guess that at this stage in my life, I've experienced a fair selection of people close to me having to live through miscarriages, fertility treatments, abortions and many of the other difficult and emotionally painful alternatives to straightforward, wanted and successful pregnancies. I've learned, somewhat, to be supportive and - I hope - helpful, to the extent that I can or should be.
I would not know for a microsecond how to help someone who was faced with having to comply with this law. It is truly inhumane, dehumanizing, disrespectful, damaging and many, many, many lightyears away from necessary. It is also one of the dumbest ideas I have seen come out of rightwing politics this year, a year which is breeding dumb rightwing ideas faster than fruitflies in rotting apples.
If I had a dog that was behaving with this amount of poisonous, dangerous insanity, I'd have it put down before it killed someone. The humane equivalent for politicians is the voting booth.
Please, America, find the magic that persuades sane people to vote. (And do Fedex some over; we need it too.)
posted by Devonian at 11:17 AM on May 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
I would not know for a microsecond how to help someone who was faced with having to comply with this law. It is truly inhumane, dehumanizing, disrespectful, damaging and many, many, many lightyears away from necessary. It is also one of the dumbest ideas I have seen come out of rightwing politics this year, a year which is breeding dumb rightwing ideas faster than fruitflies in rotting apples.
If I had a dog that was behaving with this amount of poisonous, dangerous insanity, I'd have it put down before it killed someone. The humane equivalent for politicians is the voting booth.
Please, America, find the magic that persuades sane people to vote. (And do Fedex some over; we need it too.)
posted by Devonian at 11:17 AM on May 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's not just Indiana, guys. This is a template. It will be copied elsewhere. It's already in the works elsewhere.
Here is Louisiana's version, on step three of the five-step process to becoming law.
posted by Corinth at 11:18 AM on May 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Here is Louisiana's version, on step three of the five-step process to becoming law.
posted by Corinth at 11:18 AM on May 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
(There was a state legislator in Virginia who introduced a bill like this one a few years ago, and so many women sent in (fake) bloody pads and tampons that he pulled the bill.)
Wow, I remember that. What happened? What really prompted him to back off? Surely he wouldn't let a silly thing like a bunch of women sending him things make him change his mind...
posted by Melismata at 11:19 AM on May 16, 2016
Wow, I remember that. What happened? What really prompted him to back off? Surely he wouldn't let a silly thing like a bunch of women sending him things make him change his mind...
posted by Melismata at 11:19 AM on May 16, 2016
If your miscarriage/abortion is early, there is nothing to bury. At its most ludicrous this would require a woman or clinic to send several bloody cloths or used pads to a funeral parlor.
Not knowing this, not knowing how pregnancy, miscarriage or abortion works, or what it looks like at different stages, is exactly the stupidity that adds insult to this injury because it tells you just how little the people making this law have cared to learn about women's bodies.
This is not to diss your reaction, corb, but what you're describing is more applicable to a stillbirth or late-term miscarriage, and not applicable at all to one in the first or even part of the second trimester. People who lose a fetus at that stage might very well mourn/have a ceremony but they would unlikely to be buying headstones.
posted by emjaybee at 11:24 AM on May 16, 2016 [27 favorites]
Not knowing this, not knowing how pregnancy, miscarriage or abortion works, or what it looks like at different stages, is exactly the stupidity that adds insult to this injury because it tells you just how little the people making this law have cared to learn about women's bodies.
This is not to diss your reaction, corb, but what you're describing is more applicable to a stillbirth or late-term miscarriage, and not applicable at all to one in the first or even part of the second trimester. People who lose a fetus at that stage might very well mourn/have a ceremony but they would unlikely to be buying headstones.
posted by emjaybee at 11:24 AM on May 16, 2016 [27 favorites]
Horrible. Just horrible. This solves nothing, and causes harm. A nadir.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:37 AM on May 16, 2016
posted by Going To Maine at 11:37 AM on May 16, 2016
i think a whole lot of antichoicers don't have the first fucking clue about human gestation and are imagining some tiny but fully formed recognizable human baby that appears immediately upon conception and just gets bigger and bigger until it is born. they simply will not believe that a natural miscarriage initiated by the body itself without the woman's express intervention could easily resemble a very heavy period with some clots and unidentifiable-to-the-naked-eye solid bits. when people who actually DO have brains in their head try to explain this it's not going to get them very far with people who believe that an abortion involves a horrifying morcellation device to puree the fetus in utero.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:38 AM on May 16, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:38 AM on May 16, 2016 [28 favorites]
Well, this reminded me that I needed to send a What The Hell email to CVS corporate regarding the lecture a CVS cashier gave a customer buying Plan B yesterday morning and the follow up rant she gave me about said customer's imagined life choices.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:39 AM on May 16, 2016 [42 favorites]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:39 AM on May 16, 2016 [42 favorites]
If that fetus is a person, it's got all sorts of rights we haven't considered!
By a strict reading of the Citizenship Clause of the 14th Amendment, fetuses are clearly not American citizens:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.So how do we resolve conflicts between the rights of citizens versus non-citizens?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:45 AM on May 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
poffin boffin: covered by the health insurance that tHESE SAME PEOPLE WANT TO TAKE AWAY GOD HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO NOT SET THINGS ON FIRE
{begins construction of large wooden hut, sends out invitations to lawmakers} So sayeth Poffin of House Boffin, the First of Her Name, Queen of Metafilter, Breaker of Stoopids, and Mother of KittehDragons
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 11:47 AM on May 16, 2016 [16 favorites]
{begins construction of large wooden hut, sends out invitations to lawmakers} So sayeth Poffin of House Boffin, the First of Her Name, Queen of Metafilter, Breaker of Stoopids, and Mother of KittehDragons
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 11:47 AM on May 16, 2016 [16 favorites]
i think a whole lot of antichoicers don't have the first fucking clue about human gestation and are imagining some tiny but fully formed recognizable human fetus that appears immediately upon conception and just gets bigger and bigger until it is born.
Yep, homunculus theory, only 400 years out of date!
posted by leotrotsky at 11:50 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yep, homunculus theory, only 400 years out of date!
posted by leotrotsky at 11:50 AM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Not knowing this, not knowing how pregnancy, miscarriage or abortion works, or what it looks like at different stages, is exactly the stupidity that adds insult to this injury because it tells you just how little the people making this law have cared to learn about women's bodies.
QFT. It blows my mind that this bill was put in place specifically to require burial or cremation for fetal and placental tissue expelled prior to the 20th week of gestation. It has no material effect after the 20th week of gestation, because that's already the point at which fetal remains are generally considered to be stillborn human remains and treated accordingly. All it really does is take away a woman's ability to choose the route that's best, safest, and healthiest for her after experiencing a pregnancy loss or termination.
This entire debacle is intended to remind women that we are less than people and little more than incubators. Any pain suffered as a result is swept under the rug along with any protestation regarding the frankly terrifying injustice of forcing women to carry pregnancies to term even when they suffer from conditions that are incompatible with life.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 11:57 AM on May 16, 2016 [16 favorites]
QFT. It blows my mind that this bill was put in place specifically to require burial or cremation for fetal and placental tissue expelled prior to the 20th week of gestation. It has no material effect after the 20th week of gestation, because that's already the point at which fetal remains are generally considered to be stillborn human remains and treated accordingly. All it really does is take away a woman's ability to choose the route that's best, safest, and healthiest for her after experiencing a pregnancy loss or termination.
This entire debacle is intended to remind women that we are less than people and little more than incubators. Any pain suffered as a result is swept under the rug along with any protestation regarding the frankly terrifying injustice of forcing women to carry pregnancies to term even when they suffer from conditions that are incompatible with life.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 11:57 AM on May 16, 2016 [16 favorites]
It's really clear that so many of these lawmakers have no idea how pregnancy or women's bodies work, but I'm starting to think they're deficient in their understanding of math, too.
Like, I think at least some of these folks must just be imagining that a fetus's growth is linear. If you've got a 9 pound baby at 9 months, then an abortion of a 5-pound fetus at 5 months sounds horrific.
I just don't get it. They're fond of trotting out the developmental pictures, but they're trying to force people to hold funerals for beings literally smaller than a shrimp?
posted by explosion at 12:06 PM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Like, I think at least some of these folks must just be imagining that a fetus's growth is linear. If you've got a 9 pound baby at 9 months, then an abortion of a 5-pound fetus at 5 months sounds horrific.
I just don't get it. They're fond of trotting out the developmental pictures, but they're trying to force people to hold funerals for beings literally smaller than a shrimp?
posted by explosion at 12:06 PM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I really want to know where the Indiana Funeral Directors Association is on all of this.
I want to believe that the vast majority of members are angry and horrified, like ColdChef. But I have to wonder if some of the skeevier folks are going start trying to set up booths on college campuses to sell pre-need plans.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 12:07 PM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I want to believe that the vast majority of members are angry and horrified, like ColdChef. But I have to wonder if some of the skeevier folks are going start trying to set up booths on college campuses to sell pre-need plans.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 12:07 PM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
> Wow, I remember that. What happened?
It got killed in committee. Additional fun fact: Its author, then-Delegate. John Cosgrove, is now a state senator and the Virginia State Leader for ALEC!
posted by rtha at 12:11 PM on May 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
It got killed in committee. Additional fun fact: Its author, then-Delegate. John Cosgrove, is now a state senator and the Virginia State Leader for ALEC!
posted by rtha at 12:11 PM on May 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Re: early miscarriages, if the woman does not spontaneously miscarry and the miscarriage is instead recognized by the doctor, the woman is generally given the choice as to whether she wants to have the miscarriage naturally (either with no medical intervention or with a pill to hasten the miscarriage along) or to have a D&C procedure. Many women prefer the D&C so that they don't have to worry about miscarrying in an inconvenient location, and also to just get it over with. But, it's a CHOICE. I know I've seen that exact "What should I do?" question at least once before on AskMe, and I've had a close friend ask my opinion on what I would do in her position given my personal experience miscarrying. It occurs to me that with this legislation, woman would likely feel pressured to just have a D&C, an invasive procedure, to collect the tissue more easily. It makes me sick that this would even be a consideration in the shitty 'how should I miscarry?' calculus.
posted by gatorae at 12:13 PM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 12:13 PM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
It got killed in committee.
posted by Melismata at 12:26 PM on May 16, 2016
Summary as introduced:Some twisted shit in Virginia, there.
Report of fetal death by mother; penalty. Provides that when a fetal death occurs without medical attendance, it shall be the woman's responsibility to report the death to the proper law-enforcement agency within 12 hours of the delivery. Violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.
posted by Melismata at 12:26 PM on May 16, 2016
Some folks are just dying to repeal the whole goddamned 20th century. The only person entitled to the final say on what happens to pregnancy tissue is the person from whose pregnancy it originated.
posted by sutureselves at 12:37 PM on May 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by sutureselves at 12:37 PM on May 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
So, that time I had a miscarriage just into my second trimester, I should have fished all that blood and gore out of the toilet and bathtub, put it in a Ziploc baggie, and had a funeral for it. Do these people even realize just how many women have miscarriages in their lifetime? Multiple miscarriages, even. I'd have a hard time naming a friend of mine who hasn't had one. And each time, we will have to get the authorities involved and, what, hope they don't accuse us of committing murder? Jesus christ.
posted by Foam Pants at 12:38 PM on May 16, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by Foam Pants at 12:38 PM on May 16, 2016 [23 favorites]
Foam Pants, remember that putting women on trial for miscarrying is now officially part of the so-called "Pro-Life" agenda. They really are trying to criminalize being female.
posted by sotonohito at 12:41 PM on May 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 12:41 PM on May 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
Do these people even realize just how many women have miscarriages in their lifetime?
Doctors need to talk to men about women.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:43 PM on May 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
Doctors need to talk to men about women.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:43 PM on May 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
How are women even REMOTELY letting this happen?
Yeah, women! Come on now! Stop letting this stuff happen already! Sheesh!
posted by mudpuppie at 12:48 PM on May 16, 2016 [39 favorites]
Yeah, women! Come on now! Stop letting this stuff happen already! Sheesh!
posted by mudpuppie at 12:48 PM on May 16, 2016 [39 favorites]
Will Indiana also outlaw donating bodies to science? If we are treating fetuses as people, then the next of kin has the right to decide how the remains are disposed of. If fetuses are people, then can they be left in the morgue for the state to bury in a potter's field? Indiana PP does not donate fetal tissue, but if fetuses are people, they logically should be able to.
I suspect the motivation is to force the clinics to pay for the disposal of the fetus if the woman does not pay for the funeral. But I would love to see them sent to the local morgue for burial at the local potter's field.
posted by Hactar at 1:05 PM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I suspect the motivation is to force the clinics to pay for the disposal of the fetus if the woman does not pay for the funeral. But I would love to see them sent to the local morgue for burial at the local potter's field.
posted by Hactar at 1:05 PM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
If I just discovered that I was pregnant in Indiana, a very wanted pregnancy, I wouldn't let anybody know until I was in my 4th month since most miscarriages happen before then. It's the only way to keep the authorities from investigating me should I miscarriage.
posted by Foam Pants at 1:40 PM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Foam Pants at 1:40 PM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
So, back in the old days when I was fertile, they couldn't even do a pregnancy test until you were six weeks late. And many women, myself included, had the experience of being a week or two late, but then your period starts. And it's a little heavier than normal, and maybe there's a little clotting. Nothing larger than a dime. And you think that well, maybe I was pregnant...but just barely. There's certainly no fetus, just a few cells in a clot somewhere. And you don't go to the doctor or anything, because it's nothing. In a situation like that, would a woman be expected to save all her tampons, and give them a burial?
Maybe we should all start saving our used tampons and mail them to Governor Pence, with a letter explaining that we can't be sure, but just in case, here's the tampons in case he wants to have them tested.
posted by MexicanYenta at 2:07 PM on May 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
Maybe we should all start saving our used tampons and mail them to Governor Pence, with a letter explaining that we can't be sure, but just in case, here's the tampons in case he wants to have them tested.
posted by MexicanYenta at 2:07 PM on May 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
Maybe we should all start saving our used tampons and mail them to Governor Pence, with a letter explaining that we can't be sure, but just in case, here's the tampons in case he wants to have them tested.
Speaking as a man who therefore can’t participate, this sounds amazing. You could also join the ongoing efforts of Periods for Pence.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:10 PM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Speaking as a man who therefore can’t participate, this sounds amazing. You could also join the ongoing efforts of Periods for Pence.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:10 PM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, women! Come on now! Stop letting this stuff happen already! Sheesh!
I loved ArbitraryAndCapricious' question upthread pointing out that there hasn't been a similar backlash against this shit. When do our allies start yelling, hey there you evil troglodyte motherfuckers, women are human beings not third class birth-cows and BTW here are some lovely financial consequences if you don't drag your retrograde asses out of the 19th century? When the fuck does that happen?
We all know when. Once more, and with feeling.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 2:23 PM on May 16, 2016 [13 favorites]
I loved ArbitraryAndCapricious' question upthread pointing out that there hasn't been a similar backlash against this shit. When do our allies start yelling, hey there you evil troglodyte motherfuckers, women are human beings not third class birth-cows and BTW here are some lovely financial consequences if you don't drag your retrograde asses out of the 19th century? When the fuck does that happen?
We all know when. Once more, and with feeling.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 2:23 PM on May 16, 2016 [13 favorites]
Maybe we should all start saving our used tampons and mail them to Governor Pence, with a letter explaining that we can't be sure, but just in case, here's the tampons in case he wants to have them tested.
Yes! But don't save them up, you need to send them monthly. Any pads you use...save all the stuff from your menstrual cup... just send it to Pence and have him test it for fetuses. How much does it cost to cremate a tampon? You should include $.50 for the book of matches.
posted by amanda at 2:39 PM on May 16, 2016
Yes! But don't save them up, you need to send them monthly. Any pads you use...save all the stuff from your menstrual cup... just send it to Pence and have him test it for fetuses. How much does it cost to cremate a tampon? You should include $.50 for the book of matches.
posted by amanda at 2:39 PM on May 16, 2016
Yes! But don't save them up, you need to send them monthly. Any pads you use...save all the stuff from your menstrual cup... just send it to Pence and have him test it for fetuses. How much does it cost to cremate a tampon? You should include $.50 for the book of matches.
I would be willing to reverse menopause for three months to participate in this. I have matches.
posted by Room 641-A at 3:00 PM on May 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I would be willing to reverse menopause for three months to participate in this. I have matches.
posted by Room 641-A at 3:00 PM on May 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Although it by no means mitigates the wrongness of this law, it may be the case that "fetus", as a term, doesn't apply to pregnancies less than ~12 weeks along - before that, they're embryos. Biologically, one generally doesn't refer to a pregnancy as a fetus until the end of the first trimester. After a cursory look I wasn't able to determine whether this definition holds up legally, but if it does, it would prevent the most absurd consequences of this law, i.e. collecting a 6-week miscarriage or abortion when the embryo is the size of a small seed.
posted by Cygnet at 3:02 PM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Cygnet at 3:02 PM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Although it by no means mitigates the wrongness of this law, it may be the case that "fetus", as a term, doesn't apply to pregnancies less than ~12 weeks along - before that, they're embryos.
These are conservative Indiana lawmakers. I'm pretty sure the nanosecond a sperm breaches the egg, they would consider that a fetus. I'm also sure a not-insignificant number of them would consider that just-fertilized egg a baby. Science or sanity be damned.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:08 PM on May 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
These are conservative Indiana lawmakers. I'm pretty sure the nanosecond a sperm breaches the egg, they would consider that a fetus. I'm also sure a not-insignificant number of them would consider that just-fertilized egg a baby. Science or sanity be damned.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:08 PM on May 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
I dunno. Until this is clarified by the courts, I think we should send in our tampons, just to be safe.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:10 PM on May 16, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:10 PM on May 16, 2016 [14 favorites]
> Biologically, one generally doesn't refer to a pregnancy as a fetus until the end of the first trimester.
People who write and pass laws like this do not care about biology, or science. People like this believe stuff like pregnancy as a result of rape is impossible because the body has a way to "shut the whole thing down." They don't care about women or children; they care about power and control.
posted by rtha at 3:55 PM on May 16, 2016 [16 favorites]
People who write and pass laws like this do not care about biology, or science. People like this believe stuff like pregnancy as a result of rape is impossible because the body has a way to "shut the whole thing down." They don't care about women or children; they care about power and control.
posted by rtha at 3:55 PM on May 16, 2016 [16 favorites]
are imagining some tiny but fully formed recognizable human baby that appears immediately upon conception and just gets bigger and bigger until it is born.
Some pro-life group has been buying up billboards around the Cleveland area, and they all feature large pictures of what are very clearly toddlers. I'm sure mostly it's just to trigger a semi-automatic "Awwwww, cute!" reaction, but then again . . . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 3:57 PM on May 16, 2016
Some pro-life group has been buying up billboards around the Cleveland area, and they all feature large pictures of what are very clearly toddlers. I'm sure mostly it's just to trigger a semi-automatic "Awwwww, cute!" reaction, but then again . . . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 3:57 PM on May 16, 2016
On the plus side, at least nobody actually has to gestate a toddler. And you thought ordinary pregnancy was uncomfortable!
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:01 PM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:01 PM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well, time to make another PP donation. The Office of the Governor is located at 200 W Washington St, Rm 206, Indianapolis, IN 46204. I like to make my donations in the name of these dudes, but letters and feminine hygiene products work, too. (Address obtained from the state of Indiana website.)
posted by Ruki at 4:04 PM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 4:04 PM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I like to make my donations in the name of these dudes, but letters and feminine hygiene products work, too.
I know (I think?) that most of the comments about feminine hygiene products are for laughs, but if anyone is seriously considering doing this, please remember that the person you're accosting most directly is the lackey who opens the governor's office's mail -- a person who is probably paid very poorly, and is quite possibly a woman.
posted by mudpuppie at 4:13 PM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I know (I think?) that most of the comments about feminine hygiene products are for laughs, but if anyone is seriously considering doing this, please remember that the person you're accosting most directly is the lackey who opens the governor's office's mail -- a person who is probably paid very poorly, and is quite possibly a woman.
posted by mudpuppie at 4:13 PM on May 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Next door in Ohio, Attorney General Mike DeWine tried to get this nonsense to stick because state lawmakers are furiously trying to figure out any way to shut down Cincinnati's last abortion provider (which happens to be Planned Parenthood).
posted by mostly vowels at 4:56 PM on May 16, 2016
posted by mostly vowels at 4:56 PM on May 16, 2016
If you are going to be mailing biological specimens make sure you follow the USPS rules so as to not ruin some line worker's day.
posted by Mitheral at 5:15 PM on May 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 5:15 PM on May 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
Although it by no means mitigates the wrongness of this law, it may be the case that "fetus", as a term, doesn't apply to pregnancies less than ~12 weeks along - before that, they're embryos.
Nope. From the text of the law:
Nope. From the text of the law:
Sec. 128.7. "Fetus", for purposes of IC 16-34 and IC 16-41-16,means an unborn child, irrespective of gestational age or the duration of the pregnancy.posted by KathrynT at 5:18 PM on May 16, 2016 [23 favorites]
It's not just Indiana, guys. This is a template. It will be copied elsewhere. It's already in the works elsewhere.
Ibegged said this in the HB2 thread too: go vote this November, y'all. Please, go vote. Get off your asses and vote. (And if you have the emotional energy for it, go volunteer for someone in your state who is trying to do the right thing.) But please please please, go vote. Because all kinds of craziness like this is going on out there, and it's deplorably easy not to notice power shifting, or think it doesn't matter, until you're the one going "who the hell hijacked my fucking state?"
posted by joycehealy at 5:20 PM on May 16, 2016 [15 favorites]
I
posted by joycehealy at 5:20 PM on May 16, 2016 [15 favorites]
I'd also point out that, as I indicated earlier, there's a distinct possibility that Pence and his pals fully expect this law to get shot down by the courts as the obvious intrusion into a private matter it is, and use that decision (notwithstanding one likely to be handed down by a conservative Reagan appointee) to gin up outrage against "activist judges" and so drive turnout of Pence's fundamentalist base.
Well, of course. Probably put the error in there on purpose. That way you get all the credit from the base, while actually achieving nothing but spitefully fucking people over for the duration it's challenged. Then, the credit again after everyone's forgotten when the news breaks of the strike-down, then you get to demonize lib'ruls for "playing loophole games" to go against "the will of the people." Get the base all riled up, and repeat with something else vile while they want revenge. And nobody gets voted out for this. It's even better than passing something that will stick. There's literally no down side. (to them)
posted by ctmf at 6:54 PM on May 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
Well, of course. Probably put the error in there on purpose. That way you get all the credit from the base, while actually achieving nothing but spitefully fucking people over for the duration it's challenged. Then, the credit again after everyone's forgotten when the news breaks of the strike-down, then you get to demonize lib'ruls for "playing loophole games" to go against "the will of the people." Get the base all riled up, and repeat with something else vile while they want revenge. And nobody gets voted out for this. It's even better than passing something that will stick. There's literally no down side. (to them)
posted by ctmf at 6:54 PM on May 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
And people wonder why I didn't want to stay in Indiana after graduating from IU.
posted by SisterHavana at 7:32 PM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by SisterHavana at 7:32 PM on May 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sec. 128.7. "Fetus", for purposes of IC 16-34 and IC 16-41-16,means an unborn child, irrespective of gestational age or the duration of the pregnancy.
Trying to imagine zygote-sized coffins.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:11 PM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trying to imagine zygote-sized coffins.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:11 PM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's not just Indiana, guys. This is a template. It will be copied elsewhere. It's already in the works elsewhere.
It's an old template. See also drug dependency/addiction policies for a great way to dehumanize your target demographic!
When do our allies start yelling, hey there you evil troglodyte motherfuckers, women are human beings not third class birth-cows and BTW here are some lovely financial consequences if you don't drag your retrograde asses out of the 19th century?
We'll see, but probably at the same time "socially conscious businesses/corporatations" object to the sad state of local, state, national and international tax and labour laws.
posted by juiceCake at 8:48 PM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's an old template. See also drug dependency/addiction policies for a great way to dehumanize your target demographic!
When do our allies start yelling, hey there you evil troglodyte motherfuckers, women are human beings not third class birth-cows and BTW here are some lovely financial consequences if you don't drag your retrograde asses out of the 19th century?
We'll see, but probably at the same time "socially conscious businesses/corporatations" object to the sad state of local, state, national and international tax and labour laws.
posted by juiceCake at 8:48 PM on May 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
More realistically, perhaps when some sort of high profile celebrity goes through a terrible ordeal involving a miscarriage or an abortion; is there a Rock Hudson of the pro-choice movement?
(Or, perhaps, once there is a woman in the White House -someday- that will push this particular war back into the national forebrain.)
posted by Going To Maine at 9:01 PM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
(Or, perhaps, once there is a woman in the White House -someday- that will push this particular war back into the national forebrain.)
posted by Going To Maine at 9:01 PM on May 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
(But it is funny, isn’t it? Scores of performers are refusing to visit NC right now. What of IN?)
posted by Going To Maine at 9:02 PM on May 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 9:02 PM on May 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
The NC thing is a nice and simple, black and white issue that lends itself well to sound bytes. Access to abortion is a nuanced issue with a wide spectrum of limits so it doesn't lend itself well to boycotts. And you'd end up boycotting most of the USA once you get into it because so many states over-regulate abortion access:
- 38 states require some type of parental involvement in a minor’s decision to have an abortion.
- 38 states require an abortion to be performed by a licensed physician.
- 32 states and the District of Columbia prohibit the use of state funds except in those cases when federal funds are available: where the woman’s life is in danger or the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest.
- 17 states mandate that women be given counseling before an abortion
- 27 states require a woman seeking an abortion to wait a specified period of time, usually 24 hours but up to 72, between when she receives counseling and the procedure is performed.
- 25 states have an ultrasound requirement
This is so effing wrong on so many levels.
Since that digbat gov has a big R after his name, the first thing that came to mind is that perhaps his brother/cousin/brother in law/wife has ties with the funeral industry. Would not surprise me one bit.
Gov Pence and his radicalized christian minions are evil rotten bastards. They'll get their comeuppance one of these days.
posted by james33 at 2:47 AM on May 17, 2016
Since that digbat gov has a big R after his name, the first thing that came to mind is that perhaps his brother/cousin/brother in law/wife has ties with the funeral industry. Would not surprise me one bit.
Gov Pence and his radicalized christian minions are evil rotten bastards. They'll get their comeuppance one of these days.
posted by james33 at 2:47 AM on May 17, 2016
Sec. 128.7. "Fetus", for purposes of IC 16-34 and IC 16-41-16,means an unborn child, irrespective of gestational age or the duration of the pregnancy.
The Religious Freedom Restoration Act, requiring that my sincere Jewish belief in the Traditional definition of ensoulment occurring at the Quickening, not conception must be respected, and overrides this state legislation, right?
posted by mikelieman at 3:59 AM on May 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
The Religious Freedom Restoration Act, requiring that my sincere Jewish belief in the Traditional definition of ensoulment occurring at the Quickening, not conception must be respected,
posted by mikelieman at 3:59 AM on May 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
"I keep hearing people talk about a class-based revolution in the USA. I think it's more likely that women are going to stage a revolution. Just point me to whichever barricade you want me on."While metafilter generally is pretty absurdly unaware of the kinds of Americans you don't find on metafilter, every so often I'm still just astonished at how utterly disconnected American mefites are from our neighbors. Although it turns out that you are not at all alone in having precious little idea what your neighbors think, American Men and Women have always had very similar conflicting feelings about abortion. There has been a very recent trend picked up by Gallup polls indicating that young women have been getting increasingly liberal since 2012, causing a new and interesting but still very small gender gap, but the meaningful driver of change since 2001 has come from older and especially middle aged Americans of both genders softening on the issue.
This isn't at all a battle being fought between women and men, you've completely failed to see the field. If we're going to have any hope of doing more for the women made vulnerable by shitty laws like this, beyond crawling further up our liberal asses to wiggle around ineffectually, we're going to have to open our eyes even if what we see isn't convenient. Its not just men who want to impose significant restrictions on abortion, most American women do too at rates roughly similar to American men, and pretending that isn't so won't make it go away.
posted by Blasdelb at 4:39 AM on May 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, so it's all those women legislators that are crafting and imposing these laws?
posted by agregoli at 4:50 AM on May 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 4:50 AM on May 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes. But more relevantly, its women voters electing them, at roughly the same rates than male voters do - and the loudest voices on both sides belong to women.
This gambit is a dead end, its obviously wrong to anyone who isn't stuck in some liberal bubble or has ever actually listened to the "anti-choice" side.
posted by Blasdelb at 5:03 AM on May 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
This gambit is a dead end, its obviously wrong to anyone who isn't stuck in some liberal bubble or has ever actually listened to the "anti-choice" side.
posted by Blasdelb at 5:03 AM on May 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Neither the existence of a female governor in South Carolina nor the fact that there are some more women in high positions at anti-abortion groups than there used to be refutes the self-evident fact that a vast majority of the legislators voting to impose these laws are men.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:29 AM on May 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 5:29 AM on May 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Mod note: Let's please drop this derail. a) The post topic is not about how many women support/oppose abortion rights, b) even if you want to discuss how many women do or don't support this specific bill, the way to do it is not to come in insulting and sneering at people and trying to raise the heat level in a thread about an already simmering topic. Please chill.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:37 AM on May 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 5:37 AM on May 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Religious Freedom Restoration Act, requiring that my sincere Jewish belief in the Traditional definition of ensoulment occurring at the Quickening, not conception must be respected, and overrides this state legislation, right?
You've got the wrong Quickening. In Indiana, THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE (religion).
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:57 AM on May 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
You've got the wrong Quickening. In Indiana, THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE (religion).
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:57 AM on May 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
mikelieman, the Satanic Temple is working on something very similar.
posted by Hactar at 9:06 AM on May 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Hactar at 9:06 AM on May 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
And here I thought Roose Bolton was a bad guy.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:17 PM on May 17, 2016
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:17 PM on May 17, 2016
@AP: BREAKING: The Oklahoma Legislature has passed a bill that would make performing an abortion a felony.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:11 AM on May 19, 2016
posted by zombieflanders at 11:11 AM on May 19, 2016
WHAT the WHAT
posted by Going To Maine at 11:33 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Going To Maine at 11:33 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Lawmakers in the US state of Oklahoma have passed a bill that would make the act of performing an abortion a crime.and
Under the bill, a doctor who performs an abortion could be sentenced to up to three years in prison and be barred from practicing medicine the state.
Anti-abortion groups said they hoped to use the bill to trigger a legal case that would overturn Roe v Wade, the Supreme Court verdict that made abortion legal in 1973.Soulless motherfuckers. Also South Carolina, which approved abortion bans after 20 weeks and which Nikki Haley has said she intends to sign.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:38 PM on May 19, 2016
I just have trouble understanding why anyone could think the current Supreme Court makeup is a victory for overturning Roe V Wade.
posted by corb at 1:10 PM on May 19, 2016
posted by corb at 1:10 PM on May 19, 2016
Kennedy has repeatedly shown indifference if not hostility towards federal protections for abortion. That means even a split decision with the current Justices would set both a really horrible precedent, and under current rules would make abortion illegal in whatever circuit(s) SCOTUS chooses from. Also, Fallin is a truly vile politician who has allied herself with Trump, who only needs to appoint one judge (though he'd likely get 2+) to strike down Roe. This is perfectly timed to take advantage of either outcome.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:27 PM on May 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 1:27 PM on May 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
Is it time to start reposting scans of old gynecology textbooks or something? I have a copy of the essay, "For the Women of South Dakota", too
posted by mikelieman at 1:33 PM on May 19, 2016
posted by mikelieman at 1:33 PM on May 19, 2016
Amber Phillips at The Washington Post: “Oklahoma Republicans want President Obama impeached, even though it’s futile”
posted by Going To Maine at 1:30 PM on May 20, 2016
posted by Going To Maine at 1:30 PM on May 20, 2016
Laura Wagner at NPR: “Oklahoma Governor Vetoes Bill That Would Make Performing Abortion A Felony”
posted by Going To Maine at 11:22 PM on May 20, 2016
posted by Going To Maine at 11:22 PM on May 20, 2016
The anti-choice blacklist: Dems call out Republicans for abusing congressional powers to intimidate women’s health providers. Despite rising violence, congressional Republicans use government resources to compile an anti-choice enemies list
posted by homunculus at 9:09 PM on May 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 9:09 PM on May 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
A Federal Judge Just Reacquainted Anti-Abortion Lawmakers With The First Amendment
posted by homunculus at 2:30 PM on May 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 2:30 PM on May 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Planned Parenthood Hopes to Use Virtual Reality to Create Compassion in New Film Across the Line
posted by homunculus at 2:01 PM on May 26, 2016
posted by homunculus at 2:01 PM on May 26, 2016
The ‘Pro-Life’ War Against Planned Parenthood Is Actually Costing Lives
posted by homunculus at 4:34 PM on June 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 4:34 PM on June 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
House Democrats Call Out Marsha Blackburn For ‘Reckless Disregard’ After Unredacted Memo Goes Public
posted by homunculus at 12:01 PM on June 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 12:01 PM on June 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
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posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:24 AM on May 16, 2016 [25 favorites]