But what will Bucky think?

May 25, 2016 7:53 PM

A day after #GiveSteveRogersABoyfriend trended worldwide on twitter, readers of Captain America were treated to a much different surprise. (spoilers for Captain America: Steve Rogers #1)

- Fans on twitter respond with #SayNoToHYDRACap

- Writer Nick Spencer: Why I Turned Steve Rogers into a Supervillain

- Everyone, Please Stop Freaking Out About That Ridiculous Captain America Reveal

posted by Windigo (160 comments total)

captain america was already dead at one point, and they pulled a 'not quite dead', right? i assume a few months from now, the reveal will be that cap was double secret undercover or something and none of this was real or some bullshit like that.
posted by and they trembled before her fury at 7:59 PM on May 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

I see that things continue to happen in the world of comic books.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:03 PM on May 25, 2016 [38 favorites]

GODDAMMIT, Dr Manhattan - why don't you pick on one universe at a time?!?
posted by Guy Smiley at 8:13 PM on May 25, 2016 [9 favorites]

(oh, spoiler alert, I guess.)
posted by Guy Smiley at 8:13 PM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Spin the wheels of Intellectual Properties in Issue #11! Evil Aquaman is fighting Batman for some reason! This reboot lasted 12 issues then we had to reboot! Now Batman is evil and teamed up with Green Lantern, but they're fighting the Flash!
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:16 PM on May 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

Obviously the work of Bass Lass.
posted by rikschell at 8:16 PM on May 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

#GiveSteveRogersABoyfriend

I volunteer
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:17 PM on May 25, 2016 [33 favorites]

May I just point out that the "Natural Disasters" - a heel tag-team made up of a Monster-Heel, and a Monster-Face-Turned-Heel - turned face as the fans were fed up with pretty-boy teams, and were cheered to victory as Tag Team Champions in much the same way Godzilla turned from civilization-ending heel to Godzuki's supportive dad on Monster Island, and school kids sang songs about how great he was.

So, yeah. Unlikely bad-guy twists! Mind control, clone, alternate-universe-double, Assistant Editor's Month, no-prize winner gestalt being, yadda yadda yadda, guess how Hydra-Cap winds up after a six-issue story arc, involving lots of crossovers at the end?

Totally still evil. You should reaaaaaly be upset about it and tell all your friends, so they buy the comics to get angry along with you. (Triangle-shield cap? Waitaminit - his shield should be... HAIL HYDRA! We have taken over this Metafilter post to re-assure you, that is the handsome Steve Rogers, who is now all of a sudden a secret Nazi, and has been all along. Gott in Himmel! Was that an Earthquake und Tugboat ref up-post?)
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:18 PM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's amazing to me how many people who generally know better are taking this "revelation" at face value and not as the last-page-shocking-cliffhanger equivalent of a Silver Age Superman cover where he's getting married to a gorilla.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:19 PM on May 25, 2016 [40 favorites]

Come on, now. Next you'll be telling me that Nick Fury is black.
posted by delfin at 8:20 PM on May 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

What if Batman started mugging people? That would make more sense than claiming that the man who punched Hitler on the cover of his first appearance has always been a secret fascist.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:20 PM on May 25, 2016 [18 favorites]

The entire resurrection of Steve Rogers, back when Bucky took up the shield, was a convoluted plot to give the Red Skull a Cap-shaped body to possess. And I'm sure the idea wasn't new then, either.

Carry on.
posted by lumensimus at 8:26 PM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Didn't this happen back in the nineties?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:36 PM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

You kids, with your comic books. Hey, remember when Superman died? They'd never pull THAT kind of BS again, right?!?
posted by yhbc at 8:38 PM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

I finally saw CIVIL war and I did so in my little outfit

Also someone was all blah blah Steve and Bucky would be gay bashers cause they grew up in the 20s and it turned into thirty tweets of me screaming at them in all caps DO YOU WANNA TALK WW2 ERA GAYNESS CAUSE BUDDY I GOT A PILE OF BOOKS AND NO CHILL
posted by The Whelk at 8:42 PM on May 25, 2016 [78 favorites]

captain america was already dead at one point, and they pulled a 'not quite dead', right?

During the time he was dead, there was a dickhole White Supremacist who was roaming around Arizona or something claiming to be Cap. Frank Castle took care of him, though.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:46 PM on May 25, 2016

I loved how when the Hydra agent approached Steve's mom, she was like, oh, we're a social group, we fight for what we know to be right, just come along to a meeting and you'll see we're the good guys, and then handed her a flyer that was literally a picture of a tentacled skull.
posted by No-sword at 8:47 PM on May 25, 2016 [34 favorites]

Obviously the work of Bass Lass.

Obviously.
posted by sobell at 8:51 PM on May 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's actually the Ultimate universe Cap sneaking over, and the A stands for AXIS.
posted by Artw at 8:55 PM on May 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

Metafilter: BUDDY I GOT A PILE OF BOOKS AND NO CHILL
posted by solarion at 8:55 PM on May 25, 2016 [20 favorites]

Yeah, I get it, this is comics, Cap has been a werewolf, and Red Skull possessed him once and he was dead for a while, and then he was old, and whatever, forget it kid, it's Chinatown hahahahaha. But fuck that. Captain America is the creation of two Jewish men, and he was created to be explicitly anti-Nazi at a time when that sentiment was not necessarily a popular one in America. Captain America means something, and always has. To pervert that meaning into its literal opposite is a slap in the face, an act of pointlessly, cruelly edgy storytelling that has no value beyond shock value.

It's even more of a slap in the face coming so quickly on the heels of fans wondering just why Cap can't be queer. Tell me it isn't fucked up that any number of people will line up to tell you that oh, it's such a betrayal of Cap's character to give him a boyfriend and so contrary to canon and that's just not who Cap is, his relationship with Bucky and/or Sam and/or Tony should remain a pristine and pure example of platonic male friendship! But make Steve Rogers a literal Nazi and suddenly it's lol comics and "let's wait and see"? Come the fuck on. Like, seriously, take a moment to think about that. We have canon literal Nazi Captain America before we have a queer Captain America. Think about the message that sends to Jewish fans, and queer fans, and POC fans.
posted by yasaman at 9:00 PM on May 25, 2016 [134 favorites]

Spencer says outrage is exactly what he wanted.

“When you decide to do something like this, you understand obviously that people aren’t gonna throw you a party for it,” he says. “You understand that this is the kind of story designed to upset people and shock people and worry people.

Yeah, clickbait-style deliberately-outrage-generating trolling is definitely exactly what the comic book industry needed more of. Ugh.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:03 PM on May 25, 2016 [21 favorites]

If we're going to roll our eyes and say "eh, it's only a comic book," then we don't get to claim that "comic books matter" when we talk about things like diversity or the messages they carry.

"Hero turns out to be villain / actually the archenemy all along" is one thing. Taking a character whose very real-world origin is tied up in Jewish immigrants calling out anti-Semitism and Naziism and saying he's part of the faux-Nazi bad guy group? And was all along? Not cool. Not cool at all. That steps all over the very real risks Joe Simon and Jack Kirby took when they created the character in 1941 -- *early* '41, before we entered WW II.

The office at Marvel is patting themselves on the back right now over all the attention this has garnered. I guarantee it. They either didn't realize they were tromping all over the context of anti-Semitism with this, or they talked themselves into not caring. Regardless, they're happy with this reaction, because they think any press is good press. They haven't realized that no, this is actually Not Cool. All they see is attention. They're in full Baghdad Bob mode telling themselves that anything bad is actually good. This has happened before.

Ultimately, this is like watching WWE and seeing Vince McMahon play up the role of the villain as he sticks the women wrestlers into some blatantly sexist scheme. In his own mind, he's thinking, "Yeah! I'm the bad guy! You're supposed to be angry at me!" but he never stops to consider that he shouldn't be putting out sexist content in the first place because it does actual harm even if it's "just a story."

You want to do a heel-turn with a hero? Fine. Tell me he's an alien shapeshifter? Tell me he's gone bad because he just can't take it anymore? Whatever. Specifically taking a hero created by JEWS to fight NAZIS and saying he's a faux-Nazi himself is an extra special level of tone-deaf bullshit.

And as an aside: I can't really get spun up about this. Marvel does something to keep me not buying their comics, film at 11. I'm irritated because of that context I mentioned above and because of the people who are rightfully appalled by this. But Marvel pushing this like things will be like this from now on is...well, they can file that under Clone Spider-Man, and the Death of Captain America, and Superior Spider-Man (Peter "dies," Doc Ock takes over his body), and Frankencastle and every other time Marvel tried to tell us "This is how it will be from now on, guys!"
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:06 PM on May 25, 2016 [40 favorites]

But make Steve Rogers a literal Nazi and suddenly it's lol comics and "let's wait and see"? Come the fuck on. Like, seriously, take a moment to think about that. We have canon literal Nazi Captain America before we have a queer Captain America. Think about the message that sends to Jewish fans, and queer fans, and POC fans.

Think of how great it'll be when the writer & the editors try to tie themselves in knots saying he's not a literal Nazi, you guys! So it's totally okay! Not insulting to anyone at all!
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:08 PM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Since Guy Smiley already made a reference to a similarly supposedly franchise-redefining event by Marvel's Distinguished Competition, I'll say that the timing is unfortunate, but also probably inevitable, since the comics have become dependent on these sort of stunts that are carefully spaced in between their big crossover events. Nick Spencer, whose work I previously enjoyed on Superior Foes of Spider-Man (whose title itself refers to yet another stunt, in which Spider-Man was taken over by the mind of his archfoe, Doctor Octopus), is worried that people will assume that it's just another temporary gimmick (like Cap being old, or Cap being dead, or Cap having another costumed identity, or, as were referenced in the issue in question, Cap wearing an Iron Man-esque suit of armor or being a werewolf), when maybe what he should be worried about is that he'll lose his reputation as a writer at least half a cut above the run of the mill Marvel hack by agreeing to put his name to servicing this particular stunt. The more that the people nominally in charge of these books--Spencer, Dan Slott on Spider-Man, whomever on the DC reboots--insist that the changes are permanent, or at least will have permanent consequences--the hollower it sounds.

Maybe one of the best remarks about the increasingly frenetic attempts to squeeze something interesting interesting out of these characters, and the parallel attempts to insist that these stunts are both credible and relevant, was made by, big shock, Alan Moore. When he was expressing his disappointment and outrage at Before Watchmen (and, in particular, how DC tried to use one of his friends, the late Steve "No Relation" Moore, as leverage to get his approval for it), he did an interview in which he made this cutting point:

At the end of the day, if they haven’t got any properties that are valuable enough, but they have got these ‘top-flight industry creators’ that are ready to produce these prequels and sequels to Watchmen, well this is probably a radical idea, but could they not get one of the ‘top-flight industry creators’ to come up with an idea of their own? Why are DC Comics trying to exploit a comic book that I wrote 25 years ago if they have got anything? Sure they ought to have had an equivalent idea since? I could ask about why Marvel Comics are churning out or planning to bring out my ancient Marvelman stories, which are even older, if they had a viable idea of their own in the quarter-century since I wrote those works. I mean, surely that would be a much easier solution than all of this clandestine stuff? Just simply get some of your top-flight talent to put out a book that the wider public outside of the comics field find as interesting or as appealing as the stuff that I wrote 25 years ago. It shouldn’t be too big an ask, should it? I wouldn’t have thought so. And it would solve an awful lot of problems. They must have one creator, surely, in the entire American industry that could do equivalent work to something I did 25 years ago. It would be insulting to think that there weren’t.

Lots of people took umbrage at the implication that what Moore was really trying to say was that there weren't, in fact, any top-flight creators at the Big Two, particularly Jason Aaron, like Spencer one of the relatively new and fairly hot writers right now, and whose current notable work is on Thor, where the "actual" Thor has been replaced by a female doppelganger. But it's also reasonable to assume that Moore meant that they just aren't doing their best work for DC or Marvel. Spencer, for example, has had his own creator-owned series, and Aaron has something called Southern Bastards that is apparently rooted in his own origins in the South. If they manage to cut a movie or TV deal with those properties, they don't have to share the money with anyone; in the meantime, they get a nice paycheck from servicing the intellectual properties of the Big Two. (Moore has done much the same with his work for Garth Ennis' Crossed franchise.)

And speaking of movies and TV, that's the real billion-dollar elephant in the living room. The comics are essentially in competition with their big-media spinoffs, and it's about as ludicrous a battle as an ant competing with an elephant in a pie-eating contest. Even BvS, considered a disappointment at "only" a $871 million gross, eclipses the comics franchises that it's based upon, which in turn are the cornerstones of DC's business. What must be especially galling to the comics people is that the movies have succeeded, in no small part, by being as scrupulous in deciding which parts of comics continuity that they wanted to ditch as which parts they wanted to keep. Captain America: Civil War has very little to do with the comic that it's based off of, and the Preacher TV series, going by the pilot, even less.

So, what's a Big Two comics writer to do, given that they're saving their best work for their own franchises, and they're getting pressured to bleed off a little of that movie lightning to keep the lights on? Hail Hydra, I guess, or do something that references Watchmen, even in a negative way, because it's still in print after three decades. It's hard out there for a hack.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:12 PM on May 25, 2016 [13 favorites]

Marvel goin' after some-o-that sweet Trump-lovin' fascist demographic. Bastards.
posted by straight at 9:21 PM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's actually the Ultimate universe Cap sneaking over, and the A stands for AXIS.

Pretty sure Ultimate Captain America's "A" stands for "ASSHOLE."
posted by No-sword at 9:22 PM on May 25, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm still hoping that DC will treat the meddling of Dr. Manhattan as metaphorical and not make him an actual enemy in the comics. Maybe also let him twiddle his fingers and bring the Question back before he disappears for good.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 9:37 PM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also why does he have a new shield and why does it look so dumb?
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:40 PM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can't ever get too worked up over Captain America, given that he exists in a universe where we already have a spare- U.S. Agent.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:44 PM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

That costume is what should really be offending people.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:48 PM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

From the last link:

But please, let’s not pretend this is real, or permanent, or won’t be utterly undone in a storyarc or two. After all, Steve Rogers has got more movies to star in soon.

Exactly. As a long-time comics reader, I've become inured to these dumbass plot twists and universe-shaking crises and promises that "now everything is different!" Inevitably they reset whatever change they made and go back to basics. It's one of the reasons I follow a few select characters and specific writers I like but don't bother to keep up with the general happenings in the DC or Marvel Universes. I get sick of chasing after the latest shoehorned plot device created as a cash-grab attempt.
posted by Anonymous at 9:51 PM on May 25, 2016

In comics, if you wait long enough, things go back to normal or something like it. Sure.
That said...I know it's just comics. I know all the reasoning and rationale. But there's just some Norman Osborn impregnating Gwen ick all over this.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:16 PM on May 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

Also why does he have a new shield and why does it look so dumb?

If you really want to know: He has a new shield because he gave his old one to Sam "Falcon" Wilson (who you may remeber from the movies) when Rogers was indisposed and Wilson took over the "Captain America" identity. I have no explanation for the "why does it look so dumb" part.
posted by baf at 10:57 PM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Most comics are soap operas with Nazis and gorillas in the mix.
posted by benzenedream at 11:10 PM on May 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

In comics, if you wait long enough, things go back to normal or something like it. Sure.
That said...I know it's just comics. I know all the reasoning and rationale. But there's just some Norman Osborn impregnating Gwen ick all over this.

That's the thing. The one thing Marvel and DC can't resist even more than a THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING event is to bring back an old villain, follow-up on an old plot, drop a reference to an earlier story. Once you publish something, you can't ever completely erase or retract it. At any time a stumped writer can pull out, "Hey remember when...?"

Just the other day I was playing the Marvel Heroes Online game, which has a huge number of little lines of dialogue unique to one character crossing paths with another. Someone playing the Green Goblin flew by someone playing Spider-Gwen, and the Goblin character gave a lecherous laugh and made some gross comment to the Gwen character alluding to that horrible story about her bearing Osborne's children.
posted by straight at 11:19 PM on May 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

I can't ever get too worked up over Captain America, given that he exists in a universe where we already have a spare- U.S. Agent.

Now I definitely always got a weird vibe from U.S. Agent. I can buy him as an authoritarian.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:22 PM on May 25, 2016

I did NOT SEE this coming...
posted by Drumhellz at 11:22 PM on May 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

Here's another take on why this is so infuriating to me and many other fans.

At any rate, my Cap is not this Cap. My Cap is MCU Cap, who is definitely not a secret Nazi, because literally no one involved in the MCU Cap movies would ever do us like that. I would far rather discuss giving Cap a boyfriend, because the love between Steve and Bucky is pure and true and the literal fixed point around which the plot of every single Cap movie to date turns, and it might as well be romantic. Or there's also the absolutely perfect meet-cute Steve had with Sam in Cap 2, and which clearly demonstrated that Sam Wilson is Grade A Boyfriend Material, yes even and especially Boyfriend to Captain America.
posted by yasaman at 11:36 PM on May 25, 2016 [31 favorites]

How long before Marvel the film studio starts worrying about shit like this spoiling their golden goose and brings down the hammer?
posted by fullerine at 11:42 PM on May 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

LINK TO ME SCREAMING At PEOPLE ABOUT BEING GAY IN THE 40s
posted by The Whelk at 11:45 PM on May 25, 2016 [22 favorites]

People are more and more turning to comics for the thing comics are better than other media at--and that isn't the "shocking twist!" storylines, which TV has had plenty of. Comics are now a medium where you can tell stories that would not make it on TV because they can't appeal to a wide enough demographic. Stories that really mean things. Comics are a place that it's okay to experiment. Experimentation is not the same thing as... whatever this is. Because they knew it was going to provoke outrage. It was entirely predictable. Marvel's actual comic sales are not doing well and they think this will help.

I feel like, by and large, what needs to happen is that a lot of the people who're getting outraged about this need to go out and actually buy physical copies of the books that aren't doing this kind of shit. Much as I like most of how the MCU is being handled, right now a lot of the best stuff I've seen in print is coming from Image. I don't think it's enough to just not buy this; it doesn't have an impact unless people do buy the ones that're doing things right. It needs to be a thing where Marvel does not get rewarded for being outrageous by having a bunch of young white edgelords go out and buy this, but the rest of the market stays exactly the same. If you care about the state of the industry, it's better to actively participate as a consumer.
posted by Sequence at 11:46 PM on May 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

Tl;dr OF COURSE THEY WOULVE KNOWN GAY PEOPLE, DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW GAY NEW YORK WAS IN THE 30s was not to mention the fucking armed service, SO FUCKING GAY, there where popular books about guys getting revenge on the homophobes who killed thier gay army buddy made into Oscar winning movies, do I I need to draw you a fucking picture cause Paul Cadmus allready that with the fleets in! Which has a gay hookup in it in the 30S
posted by The Whelk at 11:47 PM on May 25, 2016 [16 favorites]

DO YOU WANNA TALK WW2 ERA GAYNESS

What is mustering out of the navy and settling in the Castro District? OK Alex, I'll take Tangential WW2ish Stuff for $800.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:03 AM on May 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

WAS IT MUSTERING or WHERE YIU OUT ON A PYSCH EVAL AND THEN GIVEN A TICKET PUT OF TOKEN OR GET A BLUE TICKET DISCHARGE BUT EVERYONE INVOVLED SAID IT DOESNT MATTER YIU CAN HANG WITH THESE GUYS IN TOEN CSUSE WW2 CENTREALIZED GAY POPULATIONS AROUND PORTS LIKE WHOA AND IT TURNS IUT WHEN YIU OUT ALL THE SUSPECTECED HOMOSEXUALS IN THE SAME WARD THEY CPTALK TO EACH OTHER.
posted by The Whelk at 12:09 AM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

*comes down, sparks flying off fingers* oh god, I know too much about the gay, this is dangerous, someone out me in sports bar in Akron Ohio for week I might kill someone
posted by The Whelk at 12:13 AM on May 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

straight has it right with the twitter quote above; a lot of times the slime just clings, no matter if there's a retcon at some point.
posted by tavella at 12:14 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also why does he have a new shield and why does it look so dumb?

Does it look something like this?
posted by GhostintheMachine at 2:09 AM on May 26, 2016

Meanwhile, over at this week's DC Rebirth:

"If you add up all the things Wally discovered on his journey, it turns out that the New 52 is the same universe as the pre-Flashpoint universe, only significantly altered, but now it's starting to look like its old self again."

So that's nice and clear, then.
posted by Paul Slade at 2:34 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

SPOILERS for DC: Rebirth #1

Well, if there's any writer who should follow up on Watchmen, it's definitely Geoff Johns.

SPOILERS for DC Rebirth #1
posted by kewb at 3:00 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

SPOILER?


Also from the Darkseid War, Wonder Woman finds out she has a lost twin brother.

This may be the single least-necessary sentence ever written in the world of comics.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:11 AM on May 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Also from the Darkseid War, Wonder Woman finds out she has a lost twin brother.

This may be the single least-necessary sentence ever written in the world of comics.

Wait...so does that make them THE WONDER TWINS?!?!?!?!
posted by xingcat at 3:20 AM on May 26, 2016 [20 favorites]

> scaryblackdeath: Think of how great it'll be when the writer & the editors try to tie themselves in knots saying he's not a literal Nazi, you guys! So it's totally okay! Not insulting to anyone at all!

Relevant "Agents of SHIELD" season 1 clip

Skye: That—that is the twisted logic that they teach you when you sign up to be a Nazi.
Grant Ward: Stop. Wait. I'm not a Nazi.
Skye: Yes, you are. That is exactly what you are. It's in the SHIELD handbook, chapter one: The Red Skull, founder of Hydra, was a big, fat, freaking Nazi!
posted by nicebookrack at 4:30 AM on May 26, 2016 [16 favorites]

I will say right now that if the next issue (or whichever one explains the twist) comes out and this really is supposed to be that Cap has been a secret Nazi forever and the books going all the way back to Jack Kirby and Joe Simon weren't the "true" story, rather than him being corrupted by time-traveling Hydra agents or false memories or some other treachery that his friends will have to undo, I will (a) lose all respect for Nick Spencer as a writer; and (b) stop giving Marvel money. I seriously doubt I'm going to need to cancel my Unlimited subscription, though.

The problem isn't with the twist, it's with Marvel and Spencer basking in all the free "OMG Cap is a Nazi now!" press without just saying "look, this is the setup for a particular story, we're not saying it's always been like this and only now being revealed."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:48 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

yasaman and Halloween Jack made all the points I wanted to already, and way more eloquently, but I just wanted to add -- I've been reading comics off and on for a good chunk of my life, started when I was an adult. When the Cap-is-a-Nazi stuff started to show up on my Tumblr feed I sucked my teeth and rolled my eyes and 'dudes, we don't know for sure stop being so Tumblr-y'. And then the issue got released and for real, I am upset. They took my hero and they made him a Nazi, and I know I can and will just ignore this shitty storyline, and it'll be retconned to be a guy named Shmilliam Shmurnside, but it'll still be the creation of two Jewish men on the eve of WWII. And it will always be there, and it's fucking enraging that Marvel have decided to take the easiest, click-baitiest, stupidest path. "We have to keep making twists on the story!" Why does the twist have to be full of hate? That's what pisses me off the most -- this is lazy, and through it's laziness, it's hateful, which are two things Steve Rogers very definitely is not. You have a team of top-notch writers who do this professionally; why am I coming up with better storylines?

That said, I would pay actual American dollars to be in the room where Chris Evans learns what they're doing to Cap.
posted by kalimac at 4:48 AM on May 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

Chris Evans learned what they're doing to Cap. ☹️
posted by nicebookrack at 4:55 AM on May 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

I think that yasaman's link summed up what's wrong with this nicely.

I just... Cap is such an aspirational character when he's done right.* I'm one of a huge bunch of people who aren't from the USA, and often eyeroll a lot of things that happen there, who just love Captain America. He's all the best possible aspirations of humanity, while at the same time having human flaws and problems that mean you can see that he's still one of us. You couldn't ask for a better fictional ambassador for your country.

(*all of the rest of that paragraph does not, therefore, apply to Ults Cap, where the A most definitely stands for Arsehole)
posted by Vortisaur at 5:37 AM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Whelk: "not to mention the fucking armed service, SO FUCKING GAY"

My grandfather's best friend in the service (WWII) was a hairdresser who would tailor the uniforms of all his buddies to make them fit better and look more fashionable. Obviously, he wasn't out or anything, but it was pretty clear from my grandfather's stories about him that everyone knew Willie was not interested in the ladies.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:37 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

IRON MAN'S SUIT HAS BEEN WOOD THE ENTIRE TIME
ANT-MAN IS NOT ACTUALLY AN ANT, MAN
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:38 AM on May 26, 2016 [15 favorites]

Aren't there like seven or eight decades worth of thought bubbles and first person narration from Cap's POV that indicate that he was pretty damned sincere in that whole good guy thing?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:40 AM on May 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think this is only getting attention from non-comic focused media because of the movies, which isn't a bad thing. But people should be worried this the same way they're worried when Obi-Wan is in danger in one of the Star War prequels. We're not really worried that Obi-Wan is going to die and we say to ourselves, "Oh man, this looks really bad, I wonder how he'll get out of this one!"

Same thing here, I don't care what the super-secret back story is, Steve Rogers is not a Nazi but I'm curious about what he actually IS up to.
posted by VTX at 5:54 AM on May 26, 2016

Who's got links for good "Steve Rogers, Stubborn Progressive Iconoclast" comic scans and fanfic recs? Steve Rogers, PR Disaster is a fun start. I need to dig through my bookmarks for the fic in which Steve roams around NYC shaming strike-breakers with Scabby the Union Rat.
posted by nicebookrack at 5:54 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

DO YOU WANNA TALK WW2 ERA GAYNESS CAUSE BUDDY I GOT A PILE OF BOOKS AND NO CHILL

Vet dicks, no chill.

Sorry.

Not sorry.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 5:59 AM on May 26, 2016

OUR FORTUNE
IS YOUR
SHAVEN FACE
IT’S OUR BEST
ADVERTISING SPACE
HAIL HYDRA
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:01 AM on May 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

I need to dig through my bookmarks for the fic in which Steve roams around NYC shaming strike-breakers with Scabby the Union Rat.

Please please please post this here or PM me or something if you find it. Please.

/forever here for Steve Rogers, righteous Roosevelt Democrat and IWW member
posted by kalimac at 6:03 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Average Avengers Local Chapter 7 of New York City?
posted by penguinliz at 6:05 AM on May 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

And it was always said of him, that he knew how to keep Christmas well, if any man alive possessed the knowledge. May that be truly said of us, and all of us! And so, as Tiny Tim observed, Hail Hydra!
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:08 AM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

This is the canonical Steve Rogers.
posted by signal at 6:09 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have not yet read this alleged "comic book." I put it in quotes to register my doubt as to whether it is in fact cunningly disguised bathroom tissue.

But I cannot help but think that if I was Steve Rogers, Quadruple Secret Hydra Agent and was waiting for the perfect moment to strike, reveal myself and further Hydra's organizational goals (i.e. What are we going to do tonight, Baron Strucker? Same thing we do every night, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!), my apotheosis of my evil plan might've been, y'know, something a bit more significant than pushing Jack "Who?" Flag out of a helicopter.
posted by delfin at 6:14 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Which is a point in favor of "the Hydra training is fake memories that were put in his head last Tuesday." Cap's not a very good double agent.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:17 AM on May 26, 2016

YEEESSS that is the fic, penguinliz and kalimac!

"Now, I'm standing in the lobby of the building you manage, and from here I can see that a Scabby the Union Rat has been set up outside. I think that -- your plumbers?" Steve frowns. "But why wouldn't you . . . ma’am, ma’am, please, I think it is my business. Ma'am, the work of these men is what allows you to live comfortably in your fancy apartment building. Excuse me?" Steve scowls, and Tony would pay cold hard cash to know what exactly the woman said to put that look on Steve's face. "Ma'am, I don't know if you realize -- well, for starters, the Journeyman Plumbers of New York City are the men who kept your grandparents from dying of cholera before you even --" Steve takes his phone away from his ear and stares down at it. "She hung up on me."

The man at the desk, who up until now has been watching with bemusement, turns to Tony and mouths, 'cholera?'

Tony can't even.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:22 AM on May 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

Devin Faraci has an article about this over at birthmoviesdeath, and I think he brings a perspective to this that's missing in the other discussions I've seen. It's not just the standard, jaded, comic book fan response of "Oh yeah, this'll be reversed later on. Just like everything else about comic history. Superman's death, Cap being a werewolf, Doc Ock being Spider-Man, all of it".

It's that the story itself will almost certainly use this plot development, whatever the plot development turns out to actually be, as a way to ultimately reinforce what's good about Captain America. It's being done for shock, yeah, but not only for shock.

Now, there's no way of knowing in advance that this is correct. And even if correct, there's no guarantee that the creators on the title will have the skill to execute whatever they have planned successfully. But getting worked up about NOW is jumping the gun by a wide, wide margin.
posted by Ipsifendus at 6:23 AM on May 26, 2016

This is dumb and just courting controversy to drive sales. Pbbbt.

yasaman's link is a really interesting take on copyright stuff that I hadn't thought about before so at least I got something cool today.
posted by Wretch729 at 6:26 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

"When fans are angry, we're selling comics." - Marvel Executive VP Tom Brevoort
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:37 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

But getting worked up about NOW is jumping the gun by a wide, wide margin.

Nah, it's comics. They're gonna screw it up. There's no earthly way this can have a payoff that works. There's no resolution to this storyline that won't seem forced or a copout. They've published one issue (one page/panel even!) and they've written themselves into a hole. There might be some interesting moments along the way but... none that will be worth the likely collateral damage.
posted by davros42 at 6:51 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

After Civil War, I was tempted to pick up the first non-Star Wars comic title in years, that being Cap. The idiocy of the twist has allowed me to keep those extra dollars I was considering spending in my pocket. Thanks, Marvel, I'll stick to the Star Wars franchise which so far has been hitting every piston.
posted by Atreides at 6:54 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's amazing to me how many people who generally know better are taking this "revelation" at face value and not as the last-page-shocking-cliffhanger equivalent of a Silver Age Superman cover where he's getting married to a gorilla.

Hi.
No. We know.
We know how comics work.
We know.
Hi.
That isn't the problem.
WE KNOW HOW COMICS WORK.
posted by almostmanda at 7:12 AM on May 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

Nah, it's comics. They're gonna screw it up. There's no earthly way this can have a payoff that works. There's no resolution to this storyline that won't seem forced or a copout.

Truth. I honestly can't remember a single one of these stunts that ever had a third-act payoff that was even memorable, much less good. Teen Tiny Stark? Electric Blue Superman? Civil War? Doc Ock Spider-Man? These all just sort of fizzled back to the status quo and obviously never had any worthwhile ending in mind beyond the shocking premise.
posted by straight at 7:14 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

WE KNOW HOW COMICS WORK.

And yet all of Wheeler's complaints about this seem to assume they're retconning away the Kirby/Simon anti-Nazi power fantasy as a big lie. So with respect to a guy who I agree with waaaaaaaaaaay more often than most people who write about comics, and who's done a lot of necessary drum-beating on representation, I think he's wrong on this one.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:25 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Can we just plan ahead and start the betting pool over how it will be undone?

2-1 It's not actually Cap...
...4-1 It's a Skrull!
...6-1 It's the Red Skull!
...20-1 It's the Red Skull who is also a Skrull!

3-1 It is actually Cap, but...
...5-1 he's from another timeline!
...7-1 he's been brainwashed!
...30-1 his brain's been switched with Doctor Octopus!

10-1 He hasn't been brainwashed, he's...
...20-1 trying to reform Hydra back to its Thule-Gesellschaft roots!
...40-1 secretly planning a presidential run!
...100-1 trying to rescue his mother, whose name is MARTHA!
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:25 AM on May 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Since this is post-Secret Wars and it still isn't clear how much* of the Ultimate universe besides Spider-Man/Miles Morales has been integrated with the main Marvel universe: are we entirely certain that this isn't Ultimate Captain America masquerading as regular Captain America, having hit regular Steve over the head and stolen his identity?

Because Ultimate Cap would be perfectly understandable as a Hydra minion. Ultimate Cap would be a terrible example of a secret undercover Hydra agent by virtue of how badly he concealed being a HUUUUGE JERKASS.


*give me the Ultimate Spider-People—Miles, Ultimate Jessica Drew, retired Ultimate Peter/MJ—and their closest friends and family living quietly happily ever after in some corner of the main Marvel 616verse, and all the rest of the Ultimateverse can go burn
posted by nicebookrack at 7:26 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also someone was all blah blah Steve and Bucky would be gay bashers cause they grew up in the 20s and it turned into thirty tweets of me screaming at them in all caps DO YOU WANNA TALK WW2 ERA GAYNESS CAUSE BUDDY I GOT A PILE OF BOOKS AND NO CHILL

I GOT A PILE OF BOOKS AND NO CHILL pretty much sums up my life.

(Also yay for knowing the history of queer people in, you know, history. Such fascinating and wonderful stuff.)
posted by not that girl at 7:36 AM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

This article is, I think, the best expression of why people are up in arms over the twist even if it's not going to take; I still disagree (even as a Jewish comics reader) but it's well worth considering.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:44 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

the Cosmic Cube is now sentient and living as its own character, with free will and everything.

So they brought companion cubes into the Marvel Universe and gave them superpowers?
posted by fitnr at 7:54 AM on May 26, 2016

Galactus is orange now.

...it's actually kind of great.
posted by Artw at 8:05 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

ANT-MAN IS NOT ACTUALLY AN ANT, MAN

THERE IS NOBODY LESS FANTASTIC THAN MR. FANTASTIC, WHO'S A DOCTOR ANYWAY
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:35 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Steve and Bucky would be gay bashers cause they grew up in the 20s

Well, at least the MCU version of Cap is like, the most socially progressive person on earth in 1940 and seems to be making a solid run at it in the present day.

The other thing I like about the MCU cap is that he's only really ever loved Peggy but lost that chance so now he doesn't really pursue romantic relationships with anyone which I think makes his sexual identity ambiguous. And when something is ambiguous, the audience can head-cannon it into whatever they want.

He could:

Be in an open relationship with Bucky and Falcon and that's why those two have so much tension between them. Or maybe Bucky is the Ex but still a friend and Falcon is the current boyfriend.

Not be interested in anyone sexually (he did have the world's longest and coldest shower).

Be straight and just not have time between saving the world all the time and training to save the world in his off-time.

Or just about anything you can come up with that makes you happy. There is enough ambiguity that I don't think you could disprove anything.
posted by VTX at 8:36 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

...20-1 trying to reform Hydra back to its Thule-Gesellschaft roots!

This is brilliant, and would be the most horrible thing Marvel ever published.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:41 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't trust Marvel (or to be honest very many people) to tell this story, but the idea of a bisexual guy who would have never considered a romantic relationship with a man if his life had remained in the 1940s who ends up frozen and waking up in the 21st century where society's change makes him realize the dude-lover-ness that's always been inside him is good enough that I'd be interested in it even in a completely Cap-free scenario.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:43 AM on May 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

(Since its come up in MeMail the books I'd recommend for pre stonewall gay attitudes are coming out under fire, the other side of silence, gay New York, and a queer history of the United States and ...a bunch of biographies)
posted by The Whelk at 8:50 AM on May 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

but the idea of a bisexual guy who would have never considered a romantic relationship with a man if his life had remained in the 1940s who ends up frozen and waking up in the 21st century where society's change makes him realize the dude-lover-ness that's always been inside him is good enough that I'd be interested in it even in a completely Cap-free scenario.

I have this nightmare, worst possible scenario version of this story in my head and it involves all of DCs worst gay bars marvel call me.
posted by The Whelk at 8:52 AM on May 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

now he doesn't really pursue romantic relationships with anyone

I am 100% behind ignoring that awkward and creepy scene. I agree, it didn't happen.

There is enough ambiguity that I don't think you could disprove anything.

Ambiguity is great for fanfiction writers, but it's not enough; we want heroes -- starring characters -- who aren't straight. And if that hero was Steve Rogers, it would be amazing, because of his status and what he represents.

My first reaction to the campaign when it rolled across my tumblr dash was a little cringe of embarrassment, because it seemed like people were taking a fandom obsession too far. But then I read some really good arguments and no longer feel like it's quite so silly. Like, it will never ever happen, but my certainty in saying that is due the very disparity that prompted the campaign.

It is indeed galling that it's more "acceptable" for Steve to kiss his dead girlfriend's niece than it is for him to kiss a man. Oh right didn't happen.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:53 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

(Since its come up in MeMail the books I'd recommend for pre stonewall gay attitudes are coming out under fire, the other side of silence, gay New York, and a queer history of the United States and ...a bunch of biographies)

Can a booklist be a front page post? Just because I've been reading a bunch of stuff like this lately and would love to hear people's thoughts and have a conversation. Not that it would work well. But I'd like it.
posted by not that girl at 8:56 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

it involves all of DCs worst gay bars marvel call me

does this mean washington dc or the DCU

either one is fine
posted by poffin boffin at 9:14 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

(I think fanfare is testing out books so ..maybe?)
posted by The Whelk at 9:15 AM on May 26, 2016

(Three of the related posts are mine I do not have a problem shut up)
posted by The Whelk at 9:15 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Aw crap, you're right Kutsu, I forgot about the arc with Peggy's niece. Well, it was nice while it lasted.

But I hear you, I'm straight so I kind of like the relief from the tacked-on romantic sub-plots that are in every action movie and had mostly been missing from MCU Cap's stories. But I suppose that a protagonist who is something other than a straight-white-male is more important.
posted by VTX at 9:19 AM on May 26, 2016

Galactus is orange now.

...it's actually kind of great.

Yeah, it's in the (new) Ultimates, being written by Al Ewing, who impressed me very much with his work on Mighty Avengers, in which he did an Avengers spin-off team that was a) majority non-white (and headed by Luke Cage) and b) did not a big deal out of that fact, they just put it out there.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:22 AM on May 26, 2016

the books I'd recommend for pre stonewall gay attitudes are coming out under fire, the other side of silence, gay New York, and a queer history of the United States

Wonderful. So what are the titles of these books?
posted by Guy Smiley at 9:24 AM on May 26, 2016

does this mean washington dc or the DCU

Weirdly the green Lantern is both
posted by The Whelk at 9:24 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wonderful. So what are the titles of these books?

....Coming Out Under Fire, The Other Side of Silence, Gay New York, and A Queer History of the United States?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:26 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wonderful. So what are the titles of these books?

Those are the titles? For biographies I'd recommend IN BED WITH GORE VIDAL and DREADFUL if only cause there's some overlap in parties they attended.
posted by The Whelk at 9:26 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Cap's come a long way since the 80s and 90s, when he was generally considered a gigantic joke and his characterization was all weakly conservative patriotic mumbling.

I have to say, I really like the current WPAish cap who probably dodged a bullet by being frozen ice during HUAC, because anyone punching Hitler before it was officially alright to would surely be Captain UnAmerican.

(There was 50s anticommunist cap, but he turned out to be a fake and an asshole.)

So can WPA Cap survive this assault on his character? Well, let's face it, probably easily. But how will be the story, and having stories is actually what keeps the character alive. And the reason that's a story we care about is because WPA Cap is a cap we care about.

The real threat to Captain Ameroca is him drifting back to rubbish 80s Reaganite Cap, and that isn't going to happen with him saying "Hail Hydra".
posted by Artw at 9:37 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

>>a bisexual guy who would have never considered a romantic relationship with a man if his life had remained in the 1940s who ends up frozen and waking up in the 21st century

I have this nightmare, worst possible scenario version of this story in my head and it involves all of DCs worst gay bars marvel call me

If you or someone like you were to choose the very-much-done Thing of publishing this story in ebook form with the copyrighted serial numbers filed off, I would gladly pay money for it and then perform my own text search/overwrite that replaces the name "Kyle" with "Steve," etc.

On the flipside, if you know where more of these great definitely-not-fanfic ebooks are hiding under their terrible Istockphoto cover art on Amazon and AllRomanceEbooks, please tell me!
posted by nicebookrack at 9:43 AM on May 26, 2016

(I'm allready committed to the filed off version of CAPTAIN AMERICA VS HUAC story but that's on my mind)
posted by The Whelk at 9:44 AM on May 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

My Captain UKIP story would be controversial as fuck, y'all.
posted by Artw at 9:50 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Now I definitely always got a weird vibe from U.S. Agent. I can buy him as an authoritarian.

Marvel could do a mini-series that apes The Dark Knight Returns and the '80s by having ultraconservative Federal stooge U.S. Agent trying to take down terrorist Manchurian candidate treason-traitor Captain America. The only downside is the similarity of the costumes, but that'd be fun.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:54 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also after all the grim and awful things that have happened in comics over the last few weeks, that legitimately have decent people fleeing the industry and have impact on actual real people, I don't know whether it's refreshing or depressing as fuck to suddenly have everyone's focus on something as inconsequential as a cap-turns-bad story. Probably the later.
posted by Artw at 9:56 AM on May 26, 2016

If you or someone like you were to choose the very-much-done Thing of publishing this story in ebook form with the copyrighted serial numbers filed off

Uh, so -- this story has been written a lot. Except the authors call it fanfiction, and they don't file the serial numbers off. Welcome to fandom!

The best place to look for fanfiction is currently archiveofourown, where all stories can be downloaded in epub and mobi. The only downside is that you do have to sift through a lot of works to find the one that's right for you. Luckily, there are a lot of search/filter options there.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:03 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Luckily, there are a lot of search/filter options there.

Bookmarks are my savior there. Find a story you like, click on the author's name, see what they (usually she) bookmarks. Even if the tropes aren't your jam, you can be relatively comfortable that the results aren't insulting or rife with SPAG errors.
posted by suelac at 10:13 AM on May 26, 2016

Artw: The real threat to Captain Ameroca is him drifting back to rubbish 80s Reaganite Cap, and that isn't going to happen with him saying "Hail Hydra".

Er? The most famous 80s Cap story was when Reagan's government demanded that he be a government agent, he gave up the shield and name, and the government hired a super-right wing dude for the role. Who was mainly there to be a terrible person. Mark Gruenwald was hardly a Reaganite.
posted by tavella at 10:29 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

My AO3 bookmarks page is already huge, thanks; I just want to reward with $$$$ the genre writers who take fanfic ideas/style/creativity and run with them in commercial fiction. Like how (Nebula Award-winning!) writer Naomi Novik's popular Temeraire series originally, explicitly started as an Aubrey-Maturin "AU with dragons!" fanfic that took on a life of its own. That's the kind of thing I love.

"Where is the commercial fiction that is as good and crazy and passionate as the best fanfic," basically.
posted by nicebookrack at 10:33 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Anyway, while I know they'll eventually retcon/reveal things, I'm not enthused given the shit happening these days for months and months of pictures of Cap (and his mom) mouthing Hydra propaganda. Especially if they decide to frame it as how they were just following the natural attractions of fascism. One of the things about Steve Rogers' history was that as someone growing up poor in 1930s New York, he was entirely aware of the dangers of fascism, at a time when in fact there were a lot of people around him cheering it on. He was smart enough to see through it from the start, and turning him into someone who was instead suckered and learned better makes him a different character. And yeah, I would find it somewhat of an insult to his creators, who *wrote him at the time* as that person. That's not just retconning another story, that's in a way retconning the actual lives they lived.
posted by tavella at 10:36 AM on May 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

For those interested in some context for queer history and why Steve Rogers of all people probably wouldn't be some violent homophobe, this tumblr post is a great start. (That blog's How to Brooklyn tag is in general a great resource for putting Steve and Bucky in their historical and geographical context.)
posted by yasaman at 10:46 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Artw may be referring to the John Walker Cap, formerly Super-Patriot, later U.S. Agent.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:51 AM on May 26, 2016

Nah, pretty much the presentation of cap in general in the 80s, both in comics and out of it. He was generally seen as a dull stick in the mud and pretty much the character Millar's taking the piss out of with the Ultimates version. Current Cap is way more interesting.
posted by Artw at 11:00 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Gzuh-wha? This totally disposable bit of ephemera produced by a company, an industry, built upon decades of exploitation of folks on the bottomest rung of commercial art by packs of crooks and liars is temporarily doing something contrary to the spirit of this intellectual property which ultimately represents nothing but maintaing the status quo and the illusion of change and progress anyway and should have entered public domain almost two decades ago if not for the machinations of subsequent generations of crooks and liars! How dare you, sirs!"

I mean fine, be pissed, but come on. The stink has always been there. The stink is never going away. This story is not what's problematic about superhero comics.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:06 AM on May 26, 2016

Artw, I grew up on Cap in the '80s and I have no idea what comics you could be referring to. Outside the comics, sure; he was usually only given cartoon cameos & whatnot by writers who weren't actually interested in him as a character. They had no idea how to portray him.

Comics Cap from the '80s was as anti-establishment as ever -- specifically the Reagan era establishment.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:25 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

As for this current plotline nonsense: I said enough above, obviously. But what really gets me isn't the storyline.

It's the fact that based on prior experiences (MANY prior experiences), Marvel will never publicly recognize what's so bad about this. Writers make bad calls all the time. The decent thing to do is to recognize it, apologize, and move on. I have no hope at all that Marvel will ever apologize for this.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:28 AM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

The problem isn't with the twist, it's with Marvel and Spencer basking in all the free "OMG Cap is a Nazi now!" press without just saying "look, this is the setup for a particular story, we're not saying it's always been like this and only now being revealed."

Unfortunately, that's exactly what they're saying:

SPENCER: Issue 2 will lay a lot of our cards on the table in terms of what the new status quo is, but the one thing we can say unequivocally is: This is not a clone, not an imposter, not mind control, not someone else acting through Steve. This really is Steve Rogers, Captain America himself. {...} It’s a big part of our story, what Steve’s beliefs are about what Hydra should be, where it should go, what it should focus on. To me, I always get really fascinated by this kind of thing. Any World War II history buff can talk your ear off about the internal power struggles of the Nazi Party. There were some fun parallels to play with here. There’s also a little bit of The Man in the High Castle here. It’s a difficult challenge to get people invested in Hydra characters because their ideology is so repugnant, but what The Man in the High Castle did so well was get you to pull for the lesser of the evils. You might be seeing some similar things here.

Face front, True Believers! {weeps}
posted by Doktor Zed at 11:32 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

This is not a clone, not an imposter, not mind control, not someone else acting through Steve.

So he was recruited by a time-traveling Hydra agent, or was given false memories of being a double agent in WWII and beyond, or somebody got the Cosmic Cube and changed the past that way, etc. If the point of the story was that the Cap we always knew and loved was a Hydra agent from day one, they'd say that in so many words, not give a list of what it isn't.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:49 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

(Also, if you read the issue, there's a flashback to his mother being recruited into a pre-WWII Hydra cell by a woman who obviously knows that 10-year-old Steve will grow up to become Captain America.)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:50 AM on May 26, 2016

So is he a big secret anti-Semite?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:24 PM on May 26, 2016

....Coming Out Under Fire, The Other Side of Silence, Gay New York, and A Queer History of the United States?

Ooohhhhh - when they're typed out with capital letters it actually makes sense!
posted by Guy Smiley at 12:52 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

[Major The Flash TV season 2 SPOILERS in this comment]

- Surprise, Jay Garrick is Zoom!
- Comic Dudebros: "WTF HOW DARE YOU TAINT THE HEROIC FLASH LEGACY WITH THIS UGLINESS"
- Surprise, Captain America is a Nazi!
- Comic Dudebros: "now hold on, don't get excited, let's see where this story goes before we judge"

[/end of The Flash season 2 spoilers]
posted by nicebookrack at 1:06 PM on May 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think I need to just go watch more clips of Sebastian Stan and Anthony Mackie being adorable together during the Civil War press tour. They're excellent palate cleansers.
posted by Salieri at 2:45 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

We have canon literal Nazi Captain America before we have a queer Captain America. Think about the message that sends to Jewish fans, and queer fans, and POC fans.

Not just those of us who are Jewish, queer, or people of color - this is sending a really unfortunate and dangerous message to white nationalists.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:17 PM on May 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

That was a good idea, Salieri. I took a trip through my stackie tag and I feel cleansed. Also, I need a Sam/Bucky shenanigans Marvel short or movie immediately. Or just a buddy cop movie with Anthony Mackie and Sebastian Stan.
posted by yasaman at 3:20 PM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Or just a buddy cop movie with Anthony Mackie and Sebastian Stan.

Yesssss I would watch a million movies with these two.

I want to see the extended story of Steve, Sam and Bucky on the run together in that tiny little car with no leg room. Does Steve finally snap at them to knock if off or he's pulling the car over right this instant? Does Bucky slip a sedative into Sam's sandwich so he can finally steal shotgun? Does Steve come out of a gas station bathroom to find the two of them in a headlock trying to force each other into the trunk? The possibilities are endless!

Plus the overnight stops at tiny motels that only have a single room available. With one bed.
posted by Salieri at 5:07 PM on May 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

Discussions like this remind me of a much more intelligent and concise comment made by octobersurprise regarding possible new James Bond actors than I could possibly make: "One thing I do find weird in media fandom, is this wish to retain an original imaginary figure or property while at the same time wanting to insist on said figure's infinite malleability." In this case, it also intertwines with the 'shipping subculture which makes no sense to me. I read a similar thinkpiece published by the A. V. Club yesterday which helped me bring into focus this sense of entitlement that fans have over art made by others. In a capitalist system, it's true that the content creators/artists are essentially beholden to patrons or fanbases and so must appease them but on the other hand, if you don't trust the artists in question to have some kind of vision and follow that themselves, then what are you even asking for out of an artist in the first place?

In terms of music, I'm reminded of Dez Cadena of Black Flag once saying that the band didn't play requests because that would essentially be talking down to their fans. Or Joe Elliott of Def Leppard who said in that band's episode of Behind the Music that he hoped that his band could be like R.E.M. or U2 who can change their sound over decades and have fans follow them still.

As an aside, Captain America's best friend Arnold Roth was a homosexual man who first appeared in 1982.
posted by koavf at 9:33 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

For that matter, one thing that is particularly unsettling about this particular shipping scenario is that it 1.) involves a power dynamic and 2.) essentially plays on stereotypes of gay males preying on underage boys. A similar and even more awful connotation happens with the Batman and Robin gay subtext stuff—Bruce Wayne adopts Dick Grayson. It's wildly inappropriate.
posted by koavf at 9:40 PM on May 26, 2016

this sense of entitlement that fans have over art made by others

Folklore, mythology, revising stories as you retell them -- these are all as old as storytelling itself. From a historical standpoint, I'd put the label "entitlement" on the weird and delusional idea that you can tell a story and somehow hold on to it and it's component parts and control them forever, using some draconian power to forbid people from retelling a story they've heard or reusing characters they've come to know. That's just not how storytelling works among humans.
posted by straight at 10:08 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

For that matter, one thing that is particularly unsettling about this particular shipping scenario is that it 1.) involves a power dynamic and 2.) essentially plays on stereotypes of gay males preying on underage boys.

The current popularity of Steve/Bucky is thanks to the MCU, where Steve and Bucky are basically the same age. (I think Bucky's a year older than Steve in the MCU, actually.) MCU Bucky Barnes is a mashup of comics Arnie Roth (childhood best friend of Steve Rogers) and comics Bucky Barnes (Howling Commando who did a lot of the dirty work Captain America couldn't). Post-Winter Soldier retcon in the comics even, Bucky was aged up to be closer to Steve in age. Pretty much no one who's currently shipping Steve/Bucky is shipping the version involving an underage Bucky.

Literally all three Captain America movies have a significant portion of their emotional center devoted to the love between Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes. Their relationship is central to the Cap trilogy. To read that relationship as romantic is neither a stretch, nor inappropriate. It's an entirely valid reading of the text. It's fine if you don't agree with that reading, but don't make like it's gross or that it comes out of nowhere when the tag line to all three Cap movies might as well be Captain America: Steve Rogers Loves Bucky Barnes, and If You Hurt Bucky, Steve Will Fight You.
posted by yasaman at 10:13 PM on May 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

To yasaman: I should have pointed out that I have not seen these films and know nothing about them really, so I suppose that is germane. Thanks.
posted by koavf at 10:35 PM on May 26, 2016

I know Armie Roth is Steve's gay best friend but I kind of hoped that was me.
posted by The Whelk at 10:54 PM on May 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Cap's come a long way since the 80s and 90s, when he was generally considered a gigantic joke and his characterization was all weakly conservative patriotic mumbling.

Artw, I'm disappoint.

Gruenwald's run on Cap in the eighties was one long examination of the impact of Reaganomics on America -- he actually had a group of supervillains start an union and the reader was expected to sympathise with them.

He had a rightwing pro wrestler hopped up on super steroids become the new Captain America when Steve Rogers rejected the notion that the US government equals America and could order him around as a superhero in their dirty wars, then spent a couple dozen issues showing how bad an idea a government led Captain America is.

Captain America in the eighties and a good chunk of the nineties was somebody who was less interested in defeating his enemies than rehabilitating them and succeeded in doing so, including pink haired serpent lady love interest Diamondback.

And honestly, no writer has come close to providing such a humane and leftwing Captain America since Gruenwald died.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:58 PM on May 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Didn't Captain America pick up Thor's hammer at some point?
I thought there was something about being worthy as a requirement for that?
Or is it just a belief in blond hair, blue eyed Norse ideal thing?
posted by TofuGolem at 4:33 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Cap can indeed lift Mjolnir.
posted by nicebookrack at 4:35 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

In a capitalist system, it's true that the content creators/artists are essentially beholden to patrons or fanbases and so must appease them but on the other hand, if you don't trust the artists in question to have some kind of vision and follow that themselves, then what are you even asking for out of an artist in the first place?

In a capitalist system, blockbuster movies are overseen by studio committee. A lot of people felt like the Steve/Sharon kiss was kind of shoehorned into the Civil War (or at least left in the final cut) because otherwise it was too easy to plausibly read Steve/Bucky as a romantic relationship. For example the "Aunt Harriet" in the Batman TV show in the 60's was specifically added to avoid "bachelors, eh? nudge nudge wink wink" commentary. This is a thing studios do.

It's not such a matter of "trusting the artist" in media like this, because there isn't an artist, and the artists are already not free to follow their vision. There are artists and also focus groups, and producers with personal hangups, and marketing departments making sure there are enough toyetic elements, and, well, it goes on and on.

A hashtag movement like #givecapaboyfriend may not result in that specific plot thread but it does tell the studios that there are people will still see a movie, or even see a movie they would not have otherwise, if a major character is allowed to have chemistry with a same-sex character (or, even, *gasp* onscreen acknowledgement of such a thing). That maybe next time the Sharon Carter character could get additional backstory or another badass fight scene instead of having to waste limited screen time on being a beard. I'm sure some of it is people who want their OTP to be cannon , but it's also a way of saying "here's a concrete example of the sort of thing we've been asking for".
posted by Karmakaze at 6:07 AM on May 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Steve/Bucky is totally my jam these days, but the Steve/Sharon kiss in Civil War didn't bother me. Steve is such a poor doomed sap when it comes to romance, and for me it was just awkward enough to be believable.

(One comment I read that I agree with is that half of Cap's actions during Civil War are because he's still emotionally reeling from Peggy's death - as expected as it probably was - and losing one of the last links to the person he used to be. And then...Bucky reappears.)

One thing I actually really liked about the recent Civil War press tour is that Steve/Bucky came up quite a bit - sometimes joking, sometimes not - because it's pretty well established that the bond between these two characters is central to the story and a huge motivation for Cap's actions in the move. And regardless of the studio's possible intentions, I liked that the Russo brothers, Evans and Stan were all pretty respectful of the idea (even if in a "well, I see it as a very strong brothers-in-arms relationship, but yeah there are other interpretations" way).

On the other hand, I'm also happy with a platonic Steve and Bucky in the movies. I think it's that "you're the most important person in the world to me and I will go to any lengths to protect you" vibe that does it for me, whether it ends up being explicitly romantic or not.
posted by Salieri at 7:05 AM on May 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

(One thing about Steve is that he is nearly suicidialy selfless for the last four movies, that's his deal, he's the guy who throws himself on the bomb, and it's gotten him NOTHING BUT PAIN. Peggy dies and Steve has literally one last thing from his old life and he decides to hold on it as hard as he fuckong can. )
posted by The Whelk at 8:11 AM on May 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

The thing that gets me about the fixation on Steve's love for Bucky in CW: Bucky is objectively not guilty by reason of insanity. Brainwashing, sure, but it's still the same thing--Bucky wasn't in control of his own actions. Cap is sticking up for his friend, yes, but he's also sticking up for someone who is clearly being railroaded by people who aren't interested in justice. The people who come after Bucky in CW are explicitly there to kill him on sight, and people are just asking Cap to let it go.

Does it matter that Bucky is Cap's oldest and best friend? Sure. But ask yourself: do you honestly see Captain America handling this any differently if, rather than Bucky, we were talking about some random person who Cap knew was in basically the same brainwashing situation? This is who Captain America is. This is what he does.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:30 AM on May 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

I think he still would have fought for that person, but I don't know if he would have actually pulled a helicopter from the sky using his bare hands. The person in question being Bucky, I think, pushed Steve from acting solely from a place of this is the moral, correct thing to do to into the emotional burn the motherfucker down stance.
posted by Windigo at 8:36 AM on May 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Steve gets a little more salty when Buck is involved, that's all.
posted by Windigo at 8:37 AM on May 27, 2016

I think he still would have fought for that person, but I don't know if he would have actually pulled a helicopter from the sky using his bare hands.

I mean, the way that was filmed? The long, lingering look at Steve's bulging muscles? The way the camera just wouldn't cut away? It was almost pornographic. *fans self*

And when triggered!Bucky was looking out of the helicopter window at Steve, it was hysterical because...I don't know if they planned it this way, but the look on SebStan's face was almost admiring rather than murderously blank. It was like, even in his brainwashed state, Bucky was like, "Okay, yeah, why am I running away from this?"
posted by Salieri at 8:43 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Only the noble of spirit and pure of heart, like, say, a Nazi, can lift Mjolnir
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:46 AM on May 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Captain America in the eighties and a good chunk of the nineties was somebody who was less interested in defeating his enemies than rehabilitating them and succeeded in doing so, including pink haired serpent lady love interest Diamondback.

Everyone can keep their Steve & Bucky shipping. I get it. Means different things to different people.

But holy shit, do I long to see the Cap/Diamondback relationship on screen. You don't even know.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:16 AM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Steve would have fought for someone not-Bucky in that situation, but we've had three movies where Steve goes from zero to sixty the minute it's Bucky on the line.

Cap 1: Bucky's dead? I don't accept that. I'll just go thirty miles behind enemy lines, alone, with nothing but a wooden shield, to free him from an evil science Nazi prison camp. No big deal.
Cap 2: Bucky's not dead and is in fact a brainwashed super assassin? Yeah, okay, I can fix that with the power of my love. Bucky, remember that promise you made to me that sounded an awful lot like a marriage vow? Yeah, to the end of the line, pal. Bucky does indeed promptly break 70 years of torture and brainwashing and saves Steve's life. JUST BRO THINGS.
Cap 3: "My name is Bucky." Well, guess it's time to fight literally everyone who wants to lay a finger on my BFF's precious, scrambled head!

Still, I take your point. I don't think it's fighting to save Bucky that's the romantic thing about Steve's actions in Civil War. He'd have done that for anyone, probably. It's his actions at the end in the fight with Tony that speak to Steve's intense devotion. When you watch that fight, at first it's just Steve fighting Tony to try to give Bucky time to get away and to deescalate the situation. It's after Tony blows Bucky's arm off that Steve absolutely. fucking. loses it. Like, some rage of Achilles level losing it. Like, for a split second in the movie theater, I was genuinely worried Steve would straight up murder Tony.

It's Steve fighting then, not Captain America, and he's fighting to hold on to the one person left who knew and loved Steve Rogers-the-man rather than Captain America-the-symbol. The choice Steve makes at the end of the movie is to leave the shield behind and walk away with Bucky instead. For three movies, when Steve hasn't chosen to sacrifice himself, Steve has chosen Bucky, every time. This is the choice that brings the trilogy full circle, the one on which Steve's entire arc pivots: Steve took up the shield to save Bucky, and became Captain America in Cap 1; in Cap 3, he saves Bucky and leaves the shield and the role of Captain America behind to be Steve Rogers.

I mean, there is some true love shit happening there. Sure, it could be platonic and I love it as a platonic relationship too, but making it romantic is, you know, not a stretch given the givens.
posted by yasaman at 10:02 AM on May 27, 2016 [14 favorites]

It's after Tony blows Bucky's arm off that Steve absolutely. fucking. loses it. Like, some rage of Achilles level losing it. Like, for a split second in the movie theater, I was genuinely worried Steve would straight up murder Tony.

Is there a lower level of intensity to fighting against a physically superior opponent while trying to prevent a murder? Is there some point where you jump into that fight, but eventually say, "Eh, screw it, you want it more?"

I'm not one to deny Steve/Bucky shipping. You want to read that as whatever kind of love you want--romantic, platonic, familial, confused, whatever--that's totally fair.

My problem is I keep seeing people read this as "Steve loses it 'cause it's his Bucky on the line" and I feel like that completely misses what's in the text of the film. Bucky or no Bucky, there's a basic right-or-wrong issue here for Steve. The narrative really kinda dodges around him ever doing anything morally out of hand (like standing by while someone gets railroaded for crimes he's not responsible for). And really, in that last fight there's the point where he's trying to prevent Tony from becoming a murderer, too. I think that's a lesser consideration, but it's there.

(Granted, we're talking about a film that only works if nobody ever bothers to talk to each other, so there's that, too...)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:35 AM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't know, I had a fairly visceral reaction to the look on Steve's face and the way he was fighting in that scene. It read as very different from Steve's other one-on-one fights in the movies thus far. There was something brutal there that I wasn't used to seeing from Steve. That's all subjective though, I'm not saying there's one right interpretation here.

I think the movie does fall down on the basic moral issue at play in not having Steve say much about why he's doing what he's doing, and instead lets his actions do all the talking. You're right that this is a basic right or wrong issue for Steve, and he's clearly acting out of moral conviction, especially in his response to the Accords. But the movie also clearly establishes that Steve is not objective when it comes to Bucky, and that he's acting from emotion when it comes to him. The fight with Tony is an echo of the fight with Rumlow, where Rumlow just evoking Bucky's name ("your Bucky," no less) was enough to throw Steve off his game and distract him. Steve said it himself, "Rumlow said Bucky, and all of a sudden I was sixteen year old kid again in Brooklyn."

I don't want to do Steve's character a disservice by making all his choices about Bucky. I'm actually far more invested in the fact that Steve's ultimate choices in Civil War are, per the Russo brothers, a "rejection of Captain America identity and a choice to embrace the Steve Rogers identity." Bucky's just part of that, because like Civil War writer Christopher Markus says, "he doesn’t want to let Bucky go. Because Bucky’s it. Bucky’s the last part of the real Steve Rogers, in a way. He’s not just fighting because “This is my best friend.” He’s fighting because, “I will be fully adrift from everything.””

And man, now I'm mad about Hydra Steve all over again, because isn't this the more interesting story? Instead of some edgy "what if he's a secret Nazi?!?!" opposite-world twist, isn't it more interesting to dig deep into what it means for Steve Rogers to be Captain America, and what it would take for him to give that mantle up? Isn't it more interesting to show his very human wants and desires, and how those conflict with the duties and sacrifices that have been demanded of him, without fundamentally compromising the character's moral integrity?

Anyway, I'm stuck in the office on the Friday before a three-day weekend and engaging in tl;dr about my Steve Rogers emotions is vastly preferable to...literally all other office-related tasks, sorry not sorry for all of this.
posted by yasaman at 12:23 PM on May 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

My problem is I keep seeing people read this as "Steve loses it 'cause it's his Bucky on the line" and I feel like that completely misses what's in the text of the film. Bucky or no Bucky, there's a basic right-or-wrong issue here for Steve.

Well, two things. Yes, I agree that it's an integral part of Cap's character that he doesn't tolerate bullies. In fact, one thing about the movie I love is his relationship with Wanda, and how he sits with her and tries (in his own repressed way) to comfort her during the aftermath of the Crossbones affair. There was a part in the middle of the movie after Bucky had been captured when Steve and Tony were talking, and it looked like Steve was coming around on the "sign the Accords now and fix problems later" view, and then he found out about Wanda being on unofficial house arrest (without her knowledge) and his walls went all the way the hell back up. For me, that was very much a Steve's Line in the Sand move, and very in character with his strong moral sense of the rights of individuals.

But for me, the final fight with Tony wasn't just about Steve generally fighting on the side of Right as he sees it. Would he have tried to defend anyone he saw as being individually railroaded? Absolutely. But the hurt and fury were very personal there, and they were centered around Steve's relationship with Bucky in particular, but also on Steve's view of who he himself is (as personified in the Bucky).

On the one level, you have the love (platonic/familial/romantic/whatever) between Steve and Bucky as individuals who have been lifelong friends and undergone tremendous amounts of tragedy, both together and separately. But Bucky also represents that last link to Steve Rogers as separate from Captain America. Not to be overly dramatic about it, but in a way Steve is fighting for his own soul as much as Bucky's life. You have a series of movies where Steve as Cap has found himself in increasing amounts of conflict with people giving him the orders, and then here you have the one person left in all the world who knew him as he was before the serum changed him. Is he what Erskine said, "not a perfect soldier, but a good man"? Dropping the shield and choosing Bucky was turning away from Cap and choosing Steve.

I think the reason why people have responded so strongly to this relationship isn't just because they've got their shipper goggles on. It's because it was absolutely vital to have Bucky in this role as a way to explore Steve's character as a link to his past and what he would allow himself to be. Any other brainwashed, railroaded person wouldn't have worked.
posted by Salieri at 12:26 PM on May 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

I really didn't think I would like Civil War, despite so far really liking all the Captain America movies (which also surprised me, because I was really expecting a very simplified rah-rah go America character and I've been constantly kind of thrilled by the integrity and nobility that Cap demonstrates), after seeing some trailers with Tony whining "but I though we was friends too, Steve!" (not an actual quote). The relationship between Steve and Bucky, and Steve's enduring loyalty, not just to Bucky, but to his principles is really amazing. I love their friendship so much.

I also think that Steve sees his and Bucky's experiences as absolutely parallel. The Winter Soldier is just Captain America, but on the other side, both of them created to serve someone else's goals and both of them ultimately disposable and deniable.
posted by glitter at 6:02 PM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Meanwhile, Phil Coulson has OPINIONS
posted by nicebookrack at 7:30 PM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ah, he's dead.
posted by Artw at 8:04 PM on May 27, 2016

Not in the comics!
posted by nicebookrack at 8:43 PM on May 27, 2016

Anyway, I'm stuck in the office on the Friday before a three-day weekend and engaging in tl;dr about my Steve Rogers emotions is vastly preferable to...literally all other office-related tasks, sorry not sorry for all of this.

I have spent waaaay too long pondering the Sadness of Steve Rogers. This character has eaten my soul.
posted by Salieri at 9:53 PM on May 27, 2016

Wonderella has this quote from the next issue that explains everything: "I was really saying 'hail hydration' but couldn't finish because my throat was too dry."
posted by straight at 3:29 AM on May 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

After soberly reflecting on the brouhaha on the interwebs, reading more about the establishing context of Marvel's next Civil War II event, and looking through the writer and editor's interviews with the press, I can say that, yes, this PR stunt does indeed blow wet chunks out of a monkey's butt. It doesn't matter if this storyline will reveal that this was another of the Red Skull's nefarious attempts to rewrite history with the Cosmic Cube and brainwash Cap (again) or that will be how the next writer-editor team will retcon this because comics, folks! This offensive mischaracterization is up there Zack Snyder's Superman snapping Zod's neck when it comes to tarnishing Golden Age heroes, and it's all we're going to hear about for the however many issues in this arc. It won't goad me into buying Marvel's comic books, though, so it's a lose-lose proposition from at least this standpoint.

And yes, this silly funnybook ploy is bothering me far more than I expected, but then, making this iconic figure into a crypto-fascist anti-hero is taking place in this context.
posted by Doktor Zed at 6:40 AM on May 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Not in the comics!

Not in the MCU, either, insofar as Agents of SHIELD is still part of the MCU.

Saying used to be that no deaths were permanent in the Marvel universes except Uncle Ben and Bucky. And, uh, that list is shorter as of a few years ago.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:59 AM on May 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

And yes, this silly funnybook ploy is bothering me far more than I expected, but then, making this iconic figure into a crypto-fascist anti-hero is taking place in this context.

Heh. Little bit of a spoiler here, but having read it boy is it ever about Trump and his particular brand of white nationalism.
posted by Artw at 4:04 PM on May 28, 2016 [1 favorite]