"What if I pretended like I didn’t know what nails were?"
June 17, 2016 11:42 PM Subscribe
When the blogger/home renovator behind Manhattan Nest was hired to work on Olivebridge Cottage, it looked like a cute country bungalow in need of a little rearranging. Ten months later, he's almost viewing the experience as a post-modernist joke. (Blog entries appear in reverse chronological order; I recommend reading the entry at the top of the page, moving all the way down, and working up.)
Oh my god. *Happily continues turning money over to landlord*
posted by taz at 12:00 AM on June 18, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by taz at 12:00 AM on June 18, 2016 [13 favorites]
That's terrifying. Isn't this why you pay inspectors a bunch of money before you take out the mortgage?
posted by leahwrenn at 12:24 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by leahwrenn at 12:24 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
The blogger mentions at one point that as part of the sale there was supposed to be some expensive mold alleviation for what were described as 'minor mold issues', which suggests that there was an inspection, but not a very good one. Also apparently the mold alleviation didn't actually happen.
posted by Rush-That-Speaks at 12:30 AM on June 18, 2016
posted by Rush-That-Speaks at 12:30 AM on June 18, 2016
I love the naive hopefulness of the "in need of a little rearranging" link: "The main bedroom is sweet but needs some work." He doesn't like the fan, and worries that the molding is "too chunky for this modernist minimalist escape."
Some Time Later: "Oh, look! You can reach your whole hand through the exterior of the house and into the crawlspace below the bedroom! The bottoms of the studs are all totally rotted! The sill plate is all rotted! Everything is terrible!"
posted by taz at 12:32 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Some Time Later: "Oh, look! You can reach your whole hand through the exterior of the house and into the crawlspace below the bedroom! The bottoms of the studs are all totally rotted! The sill plate is all rotted! Everything is terrible!"
posted by taz at 12:32 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
I say this as someone with family involved in real estate: home inspection is bullshit.
Every single person involved in the housing process is incented to make deals happen, including home inspectors. I've seen different home inspectors give opinions ranging from "it's fine" to "hell no" - all on the same house.
New construction or recent/permitted/inspected renovations only. I know a family with a (great) contractor grandfather that basically will not allow that family to buy a home unless he gets to look at it/interview the current home owners about its history, first. There's good reasons for that, and that's the approach being taken by a professional who has spent their lifetime in this work.
As a layperson I'm supposed to trust my family's financial future to some rubber stamp bureaucrat?
The blogger seems to know what they're doing. Why didn't they kick the tires harder BEFORE his friends bought the house?
posted by NoRelationToLea at 12:55 AM on June 18, 2016 [31 favorites]
Every single person involved in the housing process is incented to make deals happen, including home inspectors. I've seen different home inspectors give opinions ranging from "it's fine" to "hell no" - all on the same house.
New construction or recent/permitted/inspected renovations only. I know a family with a (great) contractor grandfather that basically will not allow that family to buy a home unless he gets to look at it/interview the current home owners about its history, first. There's good reasons for that, and that's the approach being taken by a professional who has spent their lifetime in this work.
As a layperson I'm supposed to trust my family's financial future to some rubber stamp bureaucrat?
The blogger seems to know what they're doing. Why didn't they kick the tires harder BEFORE his friends bought the house?
posted by NoRelationToLea at 12:55 AM on June 18, 2016 [31 favorites]
It's like some kids built a shack in the woods and somebody mistook it for a real house and moved in.
posted by Foam Pants at 1:28 AM on June 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Foam Pants at 1:28 AM on June 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh God. This knocks our painful home renovation into a cocked hat.
It looks like this poor couple are (financially) stuffed. Are they in a nonrecourse state? Is dumping the whole thing an option?
posted by pharm at 1:41 AM on June 18, 2016
It looks like this poor couple are (financially) stuffed. Are they in a nonrecourse state? Is dumping the whole thing an option?
posted by pharm at 1:41 AM on June 18, 2016
No relation: From what the contractor has blogged, it looks like most of the true horrors were behind parts of the house that you wouldn't get to open up in any inspection.
posted by pharm at 1:43 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by pharm at 1:43 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
I say this as someone with family involved in real estate: home inspection is bullshit.
I have painfully learned that this week. The house I bought a couple of years ago has had increasing damp problems in one room and the builder I asked to come and look at it spent a long time whistling through his teeth and shaking his head and pointing out where things were "done wrong", "a mess", and "stupid". Needless to say all of these issues had been blithely ignored by the surveyor before the purchase. He sent me a quote for several thousand pounds of work to fix it all (I believe the gist of the work spec was "knock wall down, build again") which I don't got but I can live with the issues for a while til I figure it out and the rest of the house is fine. So actually this post is making me feel better, thanks!
posted by billiebee at 2:07 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
I have painfully learned that this week. The house I bought a couple of years ago has had increasing damp problems in one room and the builder I asked to come and look at it spent a long time whistling through his teeth and shaking his head and pointing out where things were "done wrong", "a mess", and "stupid". Needless to say all of these issues had been blithely ignored by the surveyor before the purchase. He sent me a quote for several thousand pounds of work to fix it all (I believe the gist of the work spec was "knock wall down, build again") which I don't got but I can live with the issues for a while til I figure it out and the rest of the house is fine. So actually this post is making me feel better, thanks!
posted by billiebee at 2:07 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
I am really glad I read the very first intro post about this, because skimming through the pics and the comments I was thinking 'yep, seen that' 'yep, normal' 'oh, dear, I know that', and so on.
I am *not* a super-experienced DIY-er: I lived through major rennovations as a kid on the famiy home, and I have owend one house, which is ~40 years old and we are doing some heavy-ish works (e.g. a bathroom reno that has involved learning how to bend and weld copper pipes, etc). But I do live in a country that has old houses and generations of enthusiastic DIY-ers, and this is - while extreme - kinda what you should plan for if you're buying a century old house that has been multiply rennovated. Someone, somewhere, will have screwed up. The floors won't be level. Nothing will be the standard size or regulation this, and people will have bodged to get around that. Over 100 years there is absolutely guaranteed to be dodgy wiring somewhere, there will be animals sharing the house with you, there will be rot, there will be terrible choices. It's what happens.
Having looked at the initial pictures, I'm now a bit more sympathetic - it sure had been buffed up well to sell, really playing on the scandi-minimalist aesthetic. I can see how you'd look at that and initially think it's in good nick & just needs a bit of interior decor. But it should be a red flag that someone has spent proper money making it look pretty, and done sod all about what is clearly a bizarre and inefficient layout. Generally, if there's a really obvious thing that needs doing and yet it hasn't been done, it's often that what seems like an easy task is actually made challenging by crappy or badly done stuff you can't see.
I don't know, clearly it is a house of horrors, but at the same time I'm kinda surprised that this guy hasn't seen stuff like this before - in fact, I'm quite envious, tbh.
(ask me about our fuse box that is still old school so if a fuse blows I have to pull it out, find fuse wire, wind the fuse wire around the fuse, etc; plus there's that 30amp fuse marked 'sauna'. we don't have a sauna. There's nowhere in the house a sauna can, has or could ever be. What is it for. WHAT IS IT FOR - etc).
posted by AFII at 2:09 AM on June 18, 2016 [24 favorites]
I am *not* a super-experienced DIY-er: I lived through major rennovations as a kid on the famiy home, and I have owend one house, which is ~40 years old and we are doing some heavy-ish works (e.g. a bathroom reno that has involved learning how to bend and weld copper pipes, etc). But I do live in a country that has old houses and generations of enthusiastic DIY-ers, and this is - while extreme - kinda what you should plan for if you're buying a century old house that has been multiply rennovated. Someone, somewhere, will have screwed up. The floors won't be level. Nothing will be the standard size or regulation this, and people will have bodged to get around that. Over 100 years there is absolutely guaranteed to be dodgy wiring somewhere, there will be animals sharing the house with you, there will be rot, there will be terrible choices. It's what happens.
Having looked at the initial pictures, I'm now a bit more sympathetic - it sure had been buffed up well to sell, really playing on the scandi-minimalist aesthetic. I can see how you'd look at that and initially think it's in good nick & just needs a bit of interior decor. But it should be a red flag that someone has spent proper money making it look pretty, and done sod all about what is clearly a bizarre and inefficient layout. Generally, if there's a really obvious thing that needs doing and yet it hasn't been done, it's often that what seems like an easy task is actually made challenging by crappy or badly done stuff you can't see.
I don't know, clearly it is a house of horrors, but at the same time I'm kinda surprised that this guy hasn't seen stuff like this before - in fact, I'm quite envious, tbh.
(ask me about our fuse box that is still old school so if a fuse blows I have to pull it out, find fuse wire, wind the fuse wire around the fuse, etc; plus there's that 30amp fuse marked 'sauna'. we don't have a sauna. There's nowhere in the house a sauna can, has or could ever be. What is it for. WHAT IS IT FOR - etc).
posted by AFII at 2:09 AM on June 18, 2016 [24 favorites]
But the smell must have been a clear indication of what was going on. And the indoor climate. And from that point of departure - why not lift up the carpet? Jump on the floor? Put a screw-driver into a beam? I'm not blaming the victims - and they are truly victims of a big scam. But whoever inspected the house when they were buying it did a lousy job.
Sometimes, I evaluate properties for friends and family. Often, I tell them either that the house needs renovation for 5 figures or that they should run off screaming. Folks rarely listen. People have all sorts of reasons for buying derelict houses.
One relative bought his neighbor's cottage because he was old and grumpy and disliked the concept of neighbors. He didn't care about the house at all but actually used my advice to get the price down to a reasonable level. His son bought it from his mother when the father died, and renovated and extended it for 5 times its original price (much more than building a new one would have cost). Why? Some sort of misguided sentimentality - he never did get what his dad was thinking.
A friend really wanted to live in a specific pricy area he couldn't afford, and was blinded by that passion even when I pointed out that there were lots of reasons the house he was buying was so much cheaper than the normal range of the area. Including mold and rot. He, like many others rationalized that I have impossibly high standards and therefore my opinion could be ignored.
Other friends got advice from a good architect, planned for the renovation, got the appropriate loans, and then proceeded to not do what the architect had suggested. When I was asked to help them, they had "temporarily" altered the planned layout with solid brick walls so that it would be extremely expensive to improve the flow and functionality of the house.
posted by mumimor at 2:25 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
Sometimes, I evaluate properties for friends and family. Often, I tell them either that the house needs renovation for 5 figures or that they should run off screaming. Folks rarely listen. People have all sorts of reasons for buying derelict houses.
One relative bought his neighbor's cottage because he was old and grumpy and disliked the concept of neighbors. He didn't care about the house at all but actually used my advice to get the price down to a reasonable level. His son bought it from his mother when the father died, and renovated and extended it for 5 times its original price (much more than building a new one would have cost). Why? Some sort of misguided sentimentality - he never did get what his dad was thinking.
A friend really wanted to live in a specific pricy area he couldn't afford, and was blinded by that passion even when I pointed out that there were lots of reasons the house he was buying was so much cheaper than the normal range of the area. Including mold and rot. He, like many others rationalized that I have impossibly high standards and therefore my opinion could be ignored.
Other friends got advice from a good architect, planned for the renovation, got the appropriate loans, and then proceeded to not do what the architect had suggested. When I was asked to help them, they had "temporarily" altered the planned layout with solid brick walls so that it would be extremely expensive to improve the flow and functionality of the house.
posted by mumimor at 2:25 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
No relation: From what the contractor has blogged, it looks like most of the true horrors were behind parts of the house that you wouldn't get to open up in any inspection.
posted by pharm
True - but fresh paint doesn't hide strange decisions throughout. Strange decisions, btw, that the blogger picked up on from the jump.
For any trade - when you see something weird at the surface, how often is the surface weird covering up solid fundamentals but strange aesthetic sensibilities? How often is the surface weird the closest the previous people could come to not horrible, and everything hidden is instead totally slipshod?
There's plenty of signs this house had problems. Even before they began the initial demo. Start with the floors. New floor coverings but uneven floors are a dead giveaway that someone is trying to pull a fast one. Follow the pipes and the vents. Look at the exposed electrical work. People really should assume it was done wrong until they see evidence to the contrary, especially when it comes to older houses.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 2:33 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
(ask me about our fuse box that is still old school so if a fuse blows I have to pull it out, find fuse wire, wind the fuse wire around the fuse, etc;
1913 house here. They pulled cloth-wrapped, rubber insulated copper wiring through the metal gaspipes that were in place.
As long as you don't TOUCH IT, it's safe enough ( when we did the ceiling fan in the living room, I made the mounting bracket without too much grief, but when the insulation started breaking apart, I was like, "OK, time to call a licensed electrician", and at the end we did replace all the fuses with a modern panel and circuit breakers.
I sleep better. Unless it rains. Whoever thought up flat roofs should be drawn and quartered.
posted by mikelieman at 2:48 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
1913 house here. They pulled cloth-wrapped, rubber insulated copper wiring through the metal gaspipes that were in place.
As long as you don't TOUCH IT, it's safe enough ( when we did the ceiling fan in the living room, I made the mounting bracket without too much grief, but when the insulation started breaking apart, I was like, "OK, time to call a licensed electrician", and at the end we did replace all the fuses with a modern panel and circuit breakers.
I sleep better. Unless it rains. Whoever thought up flat roofs should be drawn and quartered.
posted by mikelieman at 2:48 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Remind me to hire a home inspector with a borescope.
posted by Fongotskilernie at 2:50 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Fongotskilernie at 2:50 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
House of Squirrels
by
Mark Z. Danielewskiposted by condour75 at 3:42 AM on June 18, 2016 [35 favorites] I have an honest question: why not get rid of it? This all looks insanely expensive to me. Just demo the while house and put up a new one. I don't know anything about these costs though. Could someone more experienced explain the rationale? Is this way really cheaper?
posted by Anonymous at 3:43 AM on June 18, 2016
posted by Anonymous at 3:43 AM on June 18, 2016
I follow this blog and have been watching this unfold in real time.
Schroedinger, he actually addresses "why not just tear it down" in one post - it's a problem of throwing good money after bad on a grand scale. I think he also mentions in another post about how the homeowners looked into sueing someone for fraud, but I forget exactly why they chose not to other than thinking that I understood their decision.
I really do recommend RTF blog posts, it will all make sense.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:49 AM on June 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
Schroedinger, he actually addresses "why not just tear it down" in one post - it's a problem of throwing good money after bad on a grand scale. I think he also mentions in another post about how the homeowners looked into sueing someone for fraud, but I forget exactly why they chose not to other than thinking that I understood their decision.
I really do recommend RTF blog posts, it will all make sense.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:49 AM on June 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
schroedinger, it's outlined pretty well at the end of the Mar 30 post (about 1/2 way down the blog project page). In short, yeah it is insanely expensive to fix that but demolishing and building new is also expensive so it's not like you are necessarily going to come out ahead what with costs already sunk, and add to that -
1) Your initial purchase price predicated buying an actual house not a block with a knockdown on it.
2) Codes have likely changed since the building was put up so there is no guarantee you'll be allowed to even build something similar on the same footprint.
3) You are quite possibly violating the terms of the mortgage, which banks don't really like, because they lent you money to buy a house, not a block of land.
So yeah, that was my initial reaction as well, but it is way more complicated than that.
We are about to embark on the renovation of the 100 year old building that we love and live in, and this is giving me the serious heebie jeebies.
posted by arha at 3:50 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
1) Your initial purchase price predicated buying an actual house not a block with a knockdown on it.
2) Codes have likely changed since the building was put up so there is no guarantee you'll be allowed to even build something similar on the same footprint.
3) You are quite possibly violating the terms of the mortgage, which banks don't really like, because they lent you money to buy a house, not a block of land.
So yeah, that was my initial reaction as well, but it is way more complicated than that.
We are about to embark on the renovation of the 100 year old building that we love and live in, and this is giving me the serious heebie jeebies.
posted by arha at 3:50 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
The author actually goes in depth into why when you buy a house as a house and not a tear down the Financials stop working. This ranges from the costs of the demo before the architect and/or prefab costs, no longer covering the cost of the property value (and certainly not increasing the overall property value) to the bank potentially demanding their money back since thearly house being built is effectively not a house anymore and the financials of your failure could potentially put the bank on the hook for total loss if you default.
posted by Nanukthedog at 3:54 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Nanukthedog at 3:54 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, here is the golden rule of any real estate purchase ever: it must have good bones. A place with good bones will NOT have sunken flooring or wacko walls where you can see something is being hidden. It can have shit paint, terrible carpet, ugly kitchen cabinets, but a sunken floor and mystery wall construction (the kitchen)? No. As soon as I read that I knew it would be bad.
Not a home inspector, just someone raised in a big family where every single member of it was in construction. I've long said "thank you" to my paternal grandfather (a construction foreman) for painstakingly describing every.last.thing to me growing up, because it has saved my financial life.
Nthing that home inspectors are barely worth the weight of the paper they sign off on. Last year I was trying to sell my place in Nice (which I still own), and one of them wrote that it had lead pipes that they had tested. All it took was me writing to a legal mediator with photos and the paid invoice from years earlier when I'd had NEW PIPES INSTALLED to get my inspection fee refunded. Ugh. I basically had to freaking tell the next home inspector what to look at. "No, the building is not made of concrete. Do you see the blocks of solid stone? It's stone."
They are fools if they think they can salvage this. The guy outright says the foundation is out of whack. My maternal grandfather? He was a concrete foreman, among other things his company built a couple of local stadiums. Sixty years later they're still standing without issues. If a foundation is out of whack, you run away screaming.
Schroedinger, he actually addresses "why not just tear it down" in one post - it's a problem of throwing good money after bad on a grand scale.
I wholeheartedly disagree and it will be proven true. They've already thrown good money after bad. Forgiving the oversight of a sunken floor and wonky walls, they should have stopped as soon as that floor and foundation were staring them in the face.
Demolishing and building new in a horror show like this is much less expensive, especially in the long run. I grew up seeing this. As for the mortgage etc., yeah, they need to lawyer up. And for pete's sake find someone who knows their shit about construction. Actual construction, not "I can DIY this" and telling engineers you just need a porch. Further background: my parents were drafter-designers; my mother consistently won contracts to draft the illustrations for our state's building code. I worked with her on it for one edition (which I still have because it's an awesome reference).
If I sound grar it's because it pains me to see people being had like this, btw, it's a symptom of systemic fleecing of people on an educational and societal level. If I, who have never built a home in my life (I'm the "I can DIY this" sort who knows when to stop), can see this stuff having learned it from true pros, than anyone can be taught it. BTW a really good show to watch for this is "This Old House".
posted by fraula at 3:57 AM on June 18, 2016 [42 favorites]
Not a home inspector, just someone raised in a big family where every single member of it was in construction. I've long said "thank you" to my paternal grandfather (a construction foreman) for painstakingly describing every.last.thing to me growing up, because it has saved my financial life.
Nthing that home inspectors are barely worth the weight of the paper they sign off on. Last year I was trying to sell my place in Nice (which I still own), and one of them wrote that it had lead pipes that they had tested. All it took was me writing to a legal mediator with photos and the paid invoice from years earlier when I'd had NEW PIPES INSTALLED to get my inspection fee refunded. Ugh. I basically had to freaking tell the next home inspector what to look at. "No, the building is not made of concrete. Do you see the blocks of solid stone? It's stone."
They are fools if they think they can salvage this. The guy outright says the foundation is out of whack. My maternal grandfather? He was a concrete foreman, among other things his company built a couple of local stadiums. Sixty years later they're still standing without issues. If a foundation is out of whack, you run away screaming.
Schroedinger, he actually addresses "why not just tear it down" in one post - it's a problem of throwing good money after bad on a grand scale.
I wholeheartedly disagree and it will be proven true. They've already thrown good money after bad. Forgiving the oversight of a sunken floor and wonky walls, they should have stopped as soon as that floor and foundation were staring them in the face.
Demolishing and building new in a horror show like this is much less expensive, especially in the long run. I grew up seeing this. As for the mortgage etc., yeah, they need to lawyer up. And for pete's sake find someone who knows their shit about construction. Actual construction, not "I can DIY this" and telling engineers you just need a porch. Further background: my parents were drafter-designers; my mother consistently won contracts to draft the illustrations for our state's building code. I worked with her on it for one edition (which I still have because it's an awesome reference).
If I sound grar it's because it pains me to see people being had like this, btw, it's a symptom of systemic fleecing of people on an educational and societal level. If I, who have never built a home in my life (I'm the "I can DIY this" sort who knows when to stop), can see this stuff having learned it from true pros, than anyone can be taught it. BTW a really good show to watch for this is "This Old House".
posted by fraula at 3:57 AM on June 18, 2016 [42 favorites]
The author addresses the inspection in the comments:
posted by Rhomboid at 4:01 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I’m not sure I’ve addressed it in a post (my bad, but we’ll talk about it!) but YES they did have an inspection. I didn’t see the inspection report until after I took this job—it did point to various things that were wrong, but I’d still say the report should have been more thorough. I think the biggest issue was that issues were pointed out, but it was never explained to the homeowners that they could indicate larger problems—for example, the inspection report notes some rot to the bottom of some of the siding, but the homeowners weren’t aware that that could mean more significant issues like rot and mold that actually extended up the wall, or termites, both of which were issues at various times with this house. Still, inspections are tricky because they’re not allowed to investigate beyond what’s plainly visible, which in this house wasn’t a lot. The majority of these issues couldn’t have been found by a simple visual inspection because previous renovation and repair attempts had done a good job of covering them up.I liked how something as batshit insane as discovering that the previous owner had vented the dryer directly into the crawlspace was really just the appetizer for the shitshow that unfolded. It's like, that would be horrible if it was the only thing wrong, but it just keeps getting worse and worse after that.
posted by Rhomboid at 4:01 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
All you need to know about what a waste of time inspections are is to scan the liability waivers and ask the inspector what happens if they give shit advice and you buy a house. What happens? SFA. Inspectors have no repercussions, at all, if they give you bad advice. Their list of exceptions is as long as the report they produce. We paid for one (and this was, apparently, a "Good one") and he told me nothing I - who know virtually nothing about building - couldn't tell from my own inspection. It was around about a 500 dollar disappointment.
posted by smoke at 4:28 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by smoke at 4:28 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
You could, probably, rebuild from the foundations up, and technically not call it a tear-down? Probably?
Maybe the clients have the money to eat the cost. A long time ago I worked for a summer and fall as a grunt on a crew rebuilding a small farmhouse and barn in western MA. The owners were from NY and they wanted a weekend place/rental (like this). It was in infinitely better condition than this but it was still stripped right back and they threw a lot of money at it. In the end they got what they wanted.
posted by carter at 4:39 AM on June 18, 2016
Maybe the clients have the money to eat the cost. A long time ago I worked for a summer and fall as a grunt on a crew rebuilding a small farmhouse and barn in western MA. The owners were from NY and they wanted a weekend place/rental (like this). It was in infinitely better condition than this but it was still stripped right back and they threw a lot of money at it. In the end they got what they wanted.
posted by carter at 4:39 AM on June 18, 2016
Also as per the Diary for May 10, I was wondering why are they still framing in new stuff, when they know the house lacks foundations in places. At that point I would have assumed that nothing was salvageable in the current state.
posted by carter at 4:59 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by carter at 4:59 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
You could, probably, rebuild from the foundations up, and technically not call it a tear-down? Probably?
There's a house a few blocks from me where they removed everything but the front and side exterior walls and built a new house around it. As far as building far-too-large-for-the-lot/neighborhood houses goes in Austin, it came out really well (as in, it isn't obviously a teardown at first glance, aside from the size and they even hid the size reasonably well), but I've been wondering what the motivation for not quite demolishing the original house was. Maybe the city is finally putting their foot down about all the teardowns, but I don't think so.
posted by hoyland at 5:03 AM on June 18, 2016
There's a house a few blocks from me where they removed everything but the front and side exterior walls and built a new house around it. As far as building far-too-large-for-the-lot/neighborhood houses goes in Austin, it came out really well (as in, it isn't obviously a teardown at first glance, aside from the size and they even hid the size reasonably well), but I've been wondering what the motivation for not quite demolishing the original house was. Maybe the city is finally putting their foot down about all the teardowns, but I don't think so.
posted by hoyland at 5:03 AM on June 18, 2016
but I've been wondering what the motivation for not quite demolishing the original house was.
In a lot of places there is a huge permitting difference between a "renovation" (even if you leave virtually nothing of the original structure) and a tear-down, so you see a lot of those quote-unquote renovations that keep things smooth on the regulatory side.
New construction or recent/permitted/inspected renovations only.
Or, my preference, older and unrenovated houses (so fewer weird DIY bodges) with solid structures. The last time I was house-shopping, I skipped every house that had the signs of a quick cosmetic upgrade, because it is hard to tell what it is hiding and to me doesn't add any value. The houses being sold by flippers are usually easy to spot because they all seem to use the same supplies and have a DIY-show aesthetic, and while it would be a lot of fun to be a house flipper there is no way I will ever buy from one.
But the point about inspections being worthless is completely true in my experience. When we sold our house, our realtor straight up told me that he was steering the buyer to a particular inspector because "he knows how to make deals happen." I paid for an inspection the last time we bought but with no expectations of it telling us anything useful, and that was pretty much the case. He did catch a minor electrical issue but we would have eventually found it out, and it would have cost a lot less than the inspection fee to fix anyway.
The blog entries are interesting, and I have seen people get caught in these situations before. It's easy, because it's a lot of small decisions rather than one big one, so by the time that it is apparent how bad things are, you are really far into the process and pretty firmly committed to the path you are on. It's not just the sunk cost fallacy, it's also deciding if you want to open the huge can of worms with the permitting people or if it is better to continue. But even if you continue, you have to fix structural issues first, and as soon as the foundation issues became apparent the other work should have been put on hold until the structure was solid.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:31 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
In a lot of places there is a huge permitting difference between a "renovation" (even if you leave virtually nothing of the original structure) and a tear-down, so you see a lot of those quote-unquote renovations that keep things smooth on the regulatory side.
New construction or recent/permitted/inspected renovations only.
Or, my preference, older and unrenovated houses (so fewer weird DIY bodges) with solid structures. The last time I was house-shopping, I skipped every house that had the signs of a quick cosmetic upgrade, because it is hard to tell what it is hiding and to me doesn't add any value. The houses being sold by flippers are usually easy to spot because they all seem to use the same supplies and have a DIY-show aesthetic, and while it would be a lot of fun to be a house flipper there is no way I will ever buy from one.
But the point about inspections being worthless is completely true in my experience. When we sold our house, our realtor straight up told me that he was steering the buyer to a particular inspector because "he knows how to make deals happen." I paid for an inspection the last time we bought but with no expectations of it telling us anything useful, and that was pretty much the case. He did catch a minor electrical issue but we would have eventually found it out, and it would have cost a lot less than the inspection fee to fix anyway.
The blog entries are interesting, and I have seen people get caught in these situations before. It's easy, because it's a lot of small decisions rather than one big one, so by the time that it is apparent how bad things are, you are really far into the process and pretty firmly committed to the path you are on. It's not just the sunk cost fallacy, it's also deciding if you want to open the huge can of worms with the permitting people or if it is better to continue. But even if you continue, you have to fix structural issues first, and as soon as the foundation issues became apparent the other work should have been put on hold until the structure was solid.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:31 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
Oh, I think I've lived in this house! Well, not this house, its 400 sq ft cousin in Maryland. Fortunately, I was renting it. It too was built by someone who knew just enough to be dangerous and never once got a permit to do anything. One leg holding up the kitchen countertop was literally a yard stick. I recognize many of these features.
Was someone living in this disaster before they bought it? What did the sellers disclosure say? Because the one I just filled out asked me in excruciating detail about pests, mold, rot, water intrusion and recent renovations.
We're closing on a new house next month and I drove my realtor crazy with my special snowflake requirements and my feeeelings when going into houses, but these were all related to not getting sucked into a money put. Quirky features were major red flags for me. Why is that wall there? What's up with the placement of that sink? That just does not seem right. The housing stock here is generally real old and I've been spoiled by living these past ten years in a rare 50s (that counts as new here) brick cape cod that's had relatively recent pro renovation. If I go into a viewing and see a visibly sloping floor, I am out. Shit that's clearly been done to hide other shit? Nopetopus. Cracks, gaps, creepy basements? Negatory. I'm sure 90% of the time these things are fine and don't indicate a serious problem but that other 10% can ruin a person financially. So: no. We are buying a very boring brick 3BR of similar vintage to our current place (and is in fact right around the corner). It's lovely to dream of a gleaming Craftsman with all the original woodwork but... Yeah no. I actually went and looked at one of those and it was truly, truly spectacular. Until you walked into the basement, were assaulted by the smell of mildew, took note of the half excavated back wall and all manner of weirdness and nooks and crannies and HALE TO THE NAW. My realtor thought I was nuts to take a hard pass on such a gorgeous property (spectacular view of the city, too) but omg just no.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:35 AM on June 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
Was someone living in this disaster before they bought it? What did the sellers disclosure say? Because the one I just filled out asked me in excruciating detail about pests, mold, rot, water intrusion and recent renovations.
We're closing on a new house next month and I drove my realtor crazy with my special snowflake requirements and my feeeelings when going into houses, but these were all related to not getting sucked into a money put. Quirky features were major red flags for me. Why is that wall there? What's up with the placement of that sink? That just does not seem right. The housing stock here is generally real old and I've been spoiled by living these past ten years in a rare 50s (that counts as new here) brick cape cod that's had relatively recent pro renovation. If I go into a viewing and see a visibly sloping floor, I am out. Shit that's clearly been done to hide other shit? Nopetopus. Cracks, gaps, creepy basements? Negatory. I'm sure 90% of the time these things are fine and don't indicate a serious problem but that other 10% can ruin a person financially. So: no. We are buying a very boring brick 3BR of similar vintage to our current place (and is in fact right around the corner). It's lovely to dream of a gleaming Craftsman with all the original woodwork but... Yeah no. I actually went and looked at one of those and it was truly, truly spectacular. Until you walked into the basement, were assaulted by the smell of mildew, took note of the half excavated back wall and all manner of weirdness and nooks and crannies and HALE TO THE NAW. My realtor thought I was nuts to take a hard pass on such a gorgeous property (spectacular view of the city, too) but omg just no.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:35 AM on June 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
Stuff like this is why I'd never buy a wood framed house in any climate where it rains. As many problems as we've had with our house, at least I always know that it's not going to rot away in a Pittsburgh Spring. This means that I can't ever own a house built after WWI since they started building brick veneers around wood platform frames but that's fine with me.
posted by octothorpe at 5:46 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 5:46 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't mean to be too negative about Daniel, as his Manhattan Nest blog was originally something I loved, but he kind of went from, "I can fix up my own apartment with my quirky style and a few fixes," to, "I am a professional home renovation contractor" because he believed a lot of his own hype. His experimentation in renovation projects eventually led me to stop reading his blog, because it was constantly a matter of him "discovering" really basic things that someone who was serious about being trained in home renovations (as a professional, not as someone who wants to make some changes to their own house by trial-and-error) and it got painful to watch.
This seems to be exactly what one would expect as the result of such a progression.
posted by xingcat at 6:06 AM on June 18, 2016 [9 favorites]
This seems to be exactly what one would expect as the result of such a progression.
posted by xingcat at 6:06 AM on June 18, 2016 [9 favorites]
This is only increasing the panic in me that the house we just bought is going to turn out like this.
And I know nothing about construction, DIY, etc. Like really, nothing. My only friends that do all live far away and getting them on board to see stuff was mostly just asking questions (but I don't even know what to ask).
I mean, I feel like we did... O.K. on one hand and on the other I feel like I notice every god damned little oddity as a major problem.
However, it doesn't look at this level of problems. ...I hope.
Thanks for ramping up my anxiety, OP.
posted by smallerdemon at 6:07 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
And I know nothing about construction, DIY, etc. Like really, nothing. My only friends that do all live far away and getting them on board to see stuff was mostly just asking questions (but I don't even know what to ask).
I mean, I feel like we did... O.K. on one hand and on the other I feel like I notice every god damned little oddity as a major problem.
However, it doesn't look at this level of problems. ...I hope.
Thanks for ramping up my anxiety, OP.
posted by smallerdemon at 6:07 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
This makes me want to raise a glass to my inspector. When one property turned out to have major underlying issues he said "I'm not even going to write up a full report, just don't buy this house" and only charged me for the time to look at it. His report on the house I did end up buying is so thorough it includes photos literally pointing out areas of concern (a disembodied hand indicates this bit of siding, that drain, etc) and my emailed followup questions were answered with full paragraphs of detail. It made buying a WWII-era house much less terrifying.
posted by Flannery Culp at 6:13 AM on June 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Flannery Culp at 6:13 AM on June 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
Stuff like this is why I'd never buy a wood framed house in any climate where it rains.
Oh, it's not "just" rain octothorpe. As someone who owns a wooden frame house in Ulster county a few towns over from Olivebridge, I can attest to how surprisingly harsh an environment that part of the world is: rain, snow, ice, floods, wind, baking heat, 130+ degree temperature swings (across the year) wildlife, vermin, insects, mold, acid rain, intense pollen, something in the rain that stains the roof, an out of control deer population...... to name just a few factors. It requires constant -- and I mean constant -- work to maintain it oneself and/or a small army of contractors to always be attending to it.
Looking at the "before" pictures there are little tells that say this owner wasn't exactly fastidious about maintaining the place. E.g., the amount of dirt in the HVAC grille, the repair around the skylight, the condition of the kitchen cabinets, etc. I agree with the "tear it down and start over" comments above.
posted by Dean358 at 6:17 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, it's not "just" rain octothorpe. As someone who owns a wooden frame house in Ulster county a few towns over from Olivebridge, I can attest to how surprisingly harsh an environment that part of the world is: rain, snow, ice, floods, wind, baking heat, 130+ degree temperature swings (across the year) wildlife, vermin, insects, mold, acid rain, intense pollen, something in the rain that stains the roof, an out of control deer population...... to name just a few factors. It requires constant -- and I mean constant -- work to maintain it oneself and/or a small army of contractors to always be attending to it.
Looking at the "before" pictures there are little tells that say this owner wasn't exactly fastidious about maintaining the place. E.g., the amount of dirt in the HVAC grille, the repair around the skylight, the condition of the kitchen cabinets, etc. I agree with the "tear it down and start over" comments above.
posted by Dean358 at 6:17 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
→ home inspection is bullshit
Yep. But isn't it great to live in a hot! hot hot! property market where a buyer requesting an inspection will pretty much put themselves out of the running, and that realtors have successfully prevented the city from publishing infestation maps as they are injurious torealtors' revenue property values?
posted by scruss at 6:25 AM on June 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yep. But isn't it great to live in a hot! hot hot! property market where a buyer requesting an inspection will pretty much put themselves out of the running, and that realtors have successfully prevented the city from publishing infestation maps as they are injurious to
posted by scruss at 6:25 AM on June 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
he believed a lot of his own hype
I think he's out of his depth now, and it would be practical to hand if off to someone else. E.g.: "Underpin the foundations" - there are no foundations ... Otherwise this is pain for everyone for months to come. Even if it makes for an entertaining blog.
posted by carter at 6:27 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think he's out of his depth now, and it would be practical to hand if off to someone else. E.g.: "Underpin the foundations" - there are no foundations ... Otherwise this is pain for everyone for months to come. Even if it makes for an entertaining blog.
posted by carter at 6:27 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
E.g.: "Underpin the foundations" - there are no foundations
I was unaware that this was written by an enthusiast rather than a professional and that's where I, as a non-homeowner, started to look at the page funny. Your "foundation" is cinderblocks sitting on dirt. Surely the only reasonable response to that discovery is to pour a new one, which necessarily involves knocking the house down. (And then suing the previous owner for multiple kinds of fraud)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:35 AM on June 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
I was unaware that this was written by an enthusiast rather than a professional and that's where I, as a non-homeowner, started to look at the page funny. Your "foundation" is cinderblocks sitting on dirt. Surely the only reasonable response to that discovery is to pour a new one, which necessarily involves knocking the house down. (And then suing the previous owner for multiple kinds of fraud)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:35 AM on June 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'd like to salute my home inspector as well, because I also had the report-with-photographs and a full list of Stuff What Must Be Fixed and Stuff What May Need Attention in Five Years. With that report, the bank demanded some repairs/changes and the owners had them done; they also came $number down on the price expressly for me to get someone to fix the rest.
1951 house, in a DC suburb subdivision which consists entirely of 1950-to-53 houses.
I was lucky. Even given the age, the house had been brought up to code, the electrical panel replaced in the 50s, attic fan installed etc. There was nothing structurally wrong. The owner-minus-one-previous had lived here for nearly 25 years and, as far as I can tell, had renovated competently.
soren_lorensen, I drove my real estate agent a bit nuts as well I think, because of my insistence on walkability and evolving requirements over the months—but she was all the way with me whenever I set foot on the basement stairs, sniffed, and walked out without even going down into the basement. MD is largely on clay; basements here can effectively be huge bathtubs, it turns out.
posted by seyirci at 6:38 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
1951 house, in a DC suburb subdivision which consists entirely of 1950-to-53 houses.
I was lucky. Even given the age, the house had been brought up to code, the electrical panel replaced in the 50s, attic fan installed etc. There was nothing structurally wrong. The owner-minus-one-previous had lived here for nearly 25 years and, as far as I can tell, had renovated competently.
soren_lorensen, I drove my real estate agent a bit nuts as well I think, because of my insistence on walkability and evolving requirements over the months—but she was all the way with me whenever I set foot on the basement stairs, sniffed, and walked out without even going down into the basement. MD is largely on clay; basements here can effectively be huge bathtubs, it turns out.
posted by seyirci at 6:38 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Your "foundation" is cinderblocks sitting on dirt. Surely the only reasonable response to that discovery is to pour a new one, which necessarily involves knocking the house down.
Or jacking up the house and pouring new foundations underneath, but either path is going to be a lot more money, by at least a couple orders of magnitude, than what was outlined in that first, optimistic post. And either option will require a competent general contractor, not an apartment rehab guy, though I do like his writing.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:40 AM on June 18, 2016
Or jacking up the house and pouring new foundations underneath, but either path is going to be a lot more money, by at least a couple orders of magnitude, than what was outlined in that first, optimistic post. And either option will require a competent general contractor, not an apartment rehab guy, though I do like his writing.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:40 AM on June 18, 2016
CTRL-F "load-bearing drywall"
No matches.
I've heard worse.
posted by delfin at 6:41 AM on June 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
No matches.
I've heard worse.
posted by delfin at 6:41 AM on June 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
Daniel [Kanter] has suggested it, a few contractors too, but I love House.I love lamp.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:56 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I know all too well how places like this get built. There are a lot of "contractor's specials" out in the mountains and woods of Pennsylvania (and New York, etc.) all put together Frankenstein-style from whatever was left over from other jobs.
posted by lagomorphius at 7:06 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by lagomorphius at 7:06 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Three weeks ago I put an offer on a house - former rental, so there was nothing on the disclosure. The inspection came back with 'half of this house is sinking, the foundation is crap and these seven joists aren't doing anything, we can't get into the attic and that second floor closet is held up by a shed that looks like it was framed by a five year-old'. Our agent still tried to get us to take the house, but instead we walked away.
My assumption was that the sellers were going to continue renting it - nothing says that you can't still rent a house in that condition, apparently - and in retrospect, that explains my last few apartments. But I just checked - the location is listed as pending as of two days ago. The sellers are still trying to sell the damn thing.
We just put another offer on a house. There's a couple of issues we know we'd want to fix over the next five years already, and we're budgeting for it. But we live in a city where the housing stock is just plain old - almost all of it is 1900 - 1930, and the areas with newer housing stock are either out of our price range or far away from public transit. Owning a house and swearing off wooden framing or older housing just isn't an option.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:10 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
My assumption was that the sellers were going to continue renting it - nothing says that you can't still rent a house in that condition, apparently - and in retrospect, that explains my last few apartments. But I just checked - the location is listed as pending as of two days ago. The sellers are still trying to sell the damn thing.
We just put another offer on a house. There's a couple of issues we know we'd want to fix over the next five years already, and we're budgeting for it. But we live in a city where the housing stock is just plain old - almost all of it is 1900 - 1930, and the areas with newer housing stock are either out of our price range or far away from public transit. Owning a house and swearing off wooden framing or older housing just isn't an option.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:10 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
The thing is, the insides of a house shouldn’t really remind you of a theater set built by a bunch of children with braces and anxiety disorders. They should probably remind you of, well, a house, ya know? Like maybe you’ve seen houses on TV or out in the world or on the internet, so when you see the insides of your house you can be like “ah, looks familiar!” while thinking about those things and not what you were doing when you were 16 and struggling to roll a halfway decent joint.
OMG I'm supposed to be buying a house in the next year and now this cottage is going to be in my nightmares and I'm going to keep renting my overpriced apartment in a terrible neighborhood instead.
Excuse me while I go watch another 8,000 hours of HGTV that tells me that all renovations are super fun and finished on time and exactly on budget by hot friendly people.
posted by TwoStride at 7:16 AM on June 18, 2016 [8 favorites]
OMG I'm supposed to be buying a house in the next year and now this cottage is going to be in my nightmares and I'm going to keep renting my overpriced apartment in a terrible neighborhood instead.
Excuse me while I go watch another 8,000 hours of HGTV that tells me that all renovations are super fun and finished on time and exactly on budget by hot friendly people.
posted by TwoStride at 7:16 AM on June 18, 2016 [8 favorites]
So far as remodel vs demo and new construction is concerned, my understanding in CA is that if you leave 1 interior wall in place it's a remodel. My brother bought a house tore it down with the exception of the 1 wall, jacked up the frame moved it over 8 feet, and had a new foundation pored underneath. Then basically built a new house around it. Remodel.
posted by ericales at 7:20 AM on June 18, 2016
posted by ericales at 7:20 AM on June 18, 2016
My wife and I are currently buying a house. The inspection is on Monday.
I have clinical levels of OCD, anxiety and currently, depression. This is my worst nightmare.
posted by Talez at 7:23 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
I have clinical levels of OCD, anxiety and currently, depression. This is my worst nightmare.
posted by Talez at 7:23 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
I arrived at our new house right as the inspector was finishing up (this was by design) to "deliver the check" but he then gave me a 45 minute walking tour of the house and property and physically showed me everything he found (old water heater, some wonky pipes in the garage, a weird roofing job that probably won't be bad to fix if we get it done fairly soon--the roof is newer but the people who put it on cut some corners). He said he was overall pretty impressed and that it's a solid house. He's also the same guy who inspected our house for our buyers and I read that report and he didn't gloss over anything that should have been called out. If anything, he was a bit too nitpicky.
I've never lived in a house that didn't have some degree of "What were they thinking? Who did this??"(in our current house, it's the ductwork) but there's a bearable amount of that and then there's the entire house being made of that. Now that I think of it, having lived in that hell hole in Maryland, as much as it sucked, taught me a lot about the red flags to look for. I think before that experience it hadn't even occurred to me that there were people out there who figured that just because they could screw some 2x4s together and wire an outlet they could build a whole house. But oh yeah, there sure are. Dunning-Kruger Manors exist all over the place.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:30 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've never lived in a house that didn't have some degree of "What were they thinking? Who did this??"(in our current house, it's the ductwork) but there's a bearable amount of that and then there's the entire house being made of that. Now that I think of it, having lived in that hell hole in Maryland, as much as it sucked, taught me a lot about the red flags to look for. I think before that experience it hadn't even occurred to me that there were people out there who figured that just because they could screw some 2x4s together and wire an outlet they could build a whole house. But oh yeah, there sure are. Dunning-Kruger Manors exist all over the place.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:30 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
I do love reading about the intended art project of House. It's so fascinating. I can't see how it was ever meant to be lived in.
posted by biggreenplant at 7:38 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by biggreenplant at 7:38 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh hey this was either the perfect thing to read an hour before going to officially start shopping for our first house ever or maybe it's going to drive me to drink and result in our never leaving our rental ahahahaha oh my god
posted by PussKillian at 7:40 AM on June 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by PussKillian at 7:40 AM on June 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
Their list of exceptions is as long as the report they produce. We paid for one (and this was, apparently, a "Good one") and he told me nothing I - who know virtually nothing about building - couldn't tell from my own inspection. It was around about a 500 dollar disappointment.
Bully for you. I'm going to stick up for inspectors a bit. They have a job to do but some of the failure of the procedure is allowing homeowners to make the "buy" choice when they don't understand what the information is telling them. Realtors aren't any better and, in fact, are great at minimizing and seeing the bright side in any property. It's not just the sales agenda, either. They are in a social game. So many realtors are loved by their clients and it's not because they pointed out a home's faults. It's because they were a friend and support as the client made a huge, anxiety-producing purchase.
We have done 9 failed bids in the Portland housing market over the last two years. Prices are insane and the housing stock sub-$350k is beat up. I have walked away from properties that I could tell had underlying issues, expensive issues and laughed to see the prices they are going for. The problem, though, is that people do need a place to live and are largely ignorant of costs and what's cosmetic vs structural.
posted by amanda at 7:41 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Bully for you. I'm going to stick up for inspectors a bit. They have a job to do but some of the failure of the procedure is allowing homeowners to make the "buy" choice when they don't understand what the information is telling them. Realtors aren't any better and, in fact, are great at minimizing and seeing the bright side in any property. It's not just the sales agenda, either. They are in a social game. So many realtors are loved by their clients and it's not because they pointed out a home's faults. It's because they were a friend and support as the client made a huge, anxiety-producing purchase.
We have done 9 failed bids in the Portland housing market over the last two years. Prices are insane and the housing stock sub-$350k is beat up. I have walked away from properties that I could tell had underlying issues, expensive issues and laughed to see the prices they are going for. The problem, though, is that people do need a place to live and are largely ignorant of costs and what's cosmetic vs structural.
posted by amanda at 7:41 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Of course even though we bought a solid brick house with a stone foundation, it was missing a few niceties such as a working kitchen or bath, functional heating and 20th century wiring. The porch did sort of tilt toward the east at about a 7 degree angle too. Oh and lead paint and asbestos. Other than that, it was great. Almost a decade later we've fixed most of the issues although we still don't really have a kitchen to speak of. But our mortgage less than the rent for a one bedroom apartment so I'm not complaining.
posted by octothorpe at 7:46 AM on June 18, 2016
posted by octothorpe at 7:46 AM on June 18, 2016
I've lived in a house like this. It basically destroyed my life. I know they think they can't tear it down, but really - they should tear it down.
posted by sockermom at 7:56 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by sockermom at 7:56 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hmm. Yeah, I'm gonna throw a shoutout to my home inspector too. He was straight awesome. He spent almost 6 hours digging through our house, and gave us an inspection report that was super detailed. Locations of suspected asbestos, detailed diagrams of insulation and venting and where it needed to be improved. He clearly delineated between cosmetic and Actual Problems™. He even found a single outlet that wasn't quite wired correctly. The most important things that he gave us were outside of the official report. There was one part of our attic that he couldn't reach. He gave us a verbal breakdown of possible problems in that area, but also let us know that there was nothing to indicate those problems, but that we should always expect the worst when we can't access part of the house. He told us that if we ever had questions about the inspection, or anything else about the house just to call him and he'd help us out.
Last month I was doing some work in the attic and got access to the area. I called him up with pictures and he walked me through everything and we found out that there was one minor problem with some wiring up there, and I was able to rectify it with just an hours worth of work.
If anyone needs a PDX home inspector recommendation, memail me. We were very impressed with the level of detail and accuracy of the report we got. Honestly aside from the actual house purchase, it was the best money we spent.
posted by furnace.heart at 8:16 AM on June 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
Last month I was doing some work in the attic and got access to the area. I called him up with pictures and he walked me through everything and we found out that there was one minor problem with some wiring up there, and I was able to rectify it with just an hours worth of work.
If anyone needs a PDX home inspector recommendation, memail me. We were very impressed with the level of detail and accuracy of the report we got. Honestly aside from the actual house purchase, it was the best money we spent.
posted by furnace.heart at 8:16 AM on June 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
To all who are now really worried: if you do it right, there can be real value in buying a house that hasn't been renovated for decades. You can get a lot more value for money, and you can get your dreamhouse. In general (though obviously not here) houses built before 1970 are better made than those built after, regardless of the construction method.
I'd suggest that you hire a local licensed architect who is known for providing good quality and sound schedules and prices already before you start house-hunting. They should have good relations with several construction companies who are known to be reliable. The architect can advise you on which structures are sound and adaptable and which aren't.
When you have found the house, the architect should make a sketch project with an outline of the timeline and prices which will be part of your negotiations with the seller and the credit-institution. The price will not be completely accurate - it never can be, but it should be believable and within a margin of +/- 10% of the final price. (Take references for this).
The architect needs to be local in order to have the good network of contractors. Architects and contractors for private homes are a different set of people than those who do big projects — I have "starchitect" friends who will privately admit they have no idea how to get a small project running and that their costs will be many times that of a small local business.
I've done a remodeling for a client which was basically similar to this story. But it was a listed building at a very special site, and I told her upfront what it would probably cost. She is completely happy with the result, and even though the proces was full of drama and surprise, she never needed to worry. The financing of that project is a bit special, because of the building's status, but the bottom-line is that she now has a very affordable home in a beautiful place.
posted by mumimor at 8:19 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'd suggest that you hire a local licensed architect who is known for providing good quality and sound schedules and prices already before you start house-hunting. They should have good relations with several construction companies who are known to be reliable. The architect can advise you on which structures are sound and adaptable and which aren't.
When you have found the house, the architect should make a sketch project with an outline of the timeline and prices which will be part of your negotiations with the seller and the credit-institution. The price will not be completely accurate - it never can be, but it should be believable and within a margin of +/- 10% of the final price. (Take references for this).
The architect needs to be local in order to have the good network of contractors. Architects and contractors for private homes are a different set of people than those who do big projects — I have "starchitect" friends who will privately admit they have no idea how to get a small project running and that their costs will be many times that of a small local business.
I've done a remodeling for a client which was basically similar to this story. But it was a listed building at a very special site, and I told her upfront what it would probably cost. She is completely happy with the result, and even though the proces was full of drama and surprise, she never needed to worry. The financing of that project is a bit special, because of the building's status, but the bottom-line is that she now has a very affordable home in a beautiful place.
posted by mumimor at 8:19 AM on June 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
Excuse me while I go watch another 8,000 hours of HGTV that tells me that all renovations are super fun and finished on time and exactly on budget by hot friendly people.
Every time I watch it seems that every remodel costs three times the estimate and either the plumbing or the electric requires massive repair?
They are hot though.
posted by winna at 8:22 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Every time I watch it seems that every remodel costs three times the estimate and either the plumbing or the electric requires massive repair?
They are hot though.
posted by winna at 8:22 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
It could be worse; they could have bought a boat instead.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 8:40 AM on June 18, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 8:40 AM on June 18, 2016 [8 favorites]
I do love reading about the intended art project of House. It's so fascinating. I can't see how it was ever meant to be lived in.
I was confused, too, having read that entry first (and was at that point convinced the buyers and blogger were in on it and the whole thing was a hoax/continuation-of-the-art-project), but that write-up is purely fictional, right? -- as though desperately trying to explain how such a house could possibly exist?
posted by nobody at 8:45 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
I was confused, too, having read that entry first (and was at that point convinced the buyers and blogger were in on it and the whole thing was a hoax/continuation-of-the-art-project), but that write-up is purely fictional, right? -- as though desperately trying to explain how such a house could possibly exist?
posted by nobody at 8:45 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, it's not like home inspectors never find anything.
posted by ckape at 8:56 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ckape at 8:56 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Reminds me of a contractor I once heard say, after more than several drinks, that all that really matters is the paint -- if the paint looks good, it doesn't matter what's underneath it.
I did not hire him.
posted by hank at 8:57 AM on June 18, 2016
I did not hire him.
posted by hank at 8:57 AM on June 18, 2016
Our home inspector had high standards, god bless him. Halfway through the inspection on our first offer, he took us aside, showed us the awful condition of the cinderblock foundation, opened the attic trapdoor to show us the mice shit that fell out, pointed out the black mold in the basement, and told us he'd only charge us half the price if we wanted to walk away right then. Which we did. Tearfully.
When he inspected the second house we made an offer on, the previous failure just made his vote of approval so much sweeter.
Later, he said that if he ever wrote a memoir, it'd be called "But It's So Cute!". This post basically gave me hives.
posted by redsparkler at 9:29 AM on June 18, 2016 [20 favorites]
When he inspected the second house we made an offer on, the previous failure just made his vote of approval so much sweeter.
Later, he said that if he ever wrote a memoir, it'd be called "But It's So Cute!". This post basically gave me hives.
posted by redsparkler at 9:29 AM on June 18, 2016 [20 favorites]
I don't understand. On one of the earlier posts you can clearly see that the foundation is made out of cinderblocks. How did they not stop trying to rebuild the walls at that point and reassess the feasibility of the project? It just seems like this guy is wasting the owner's time and should have realized he was in over his head immediately.
posted by dilaudid at 9:41 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by dilaudid at 9:41 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I’ve scanned through all the blog posts and comments and they explain why the new owners decided not to sue the previous owner, supposedly he is not liable because the rule is "buyer beware" - but that applies to the sale only, right? What about basic regulations on building and health and safety and all that? Isn’t the previous owner liable for violating those, if not for misrepresentation or fraud in the sale?
That’s what I don’t understand. How is it possible he could get away with that - not the sale of a horror house, but basically creating the horror house in the first place? Isn’t that the illegal part? Now that they found out how bad it was, shouldn’t he face charges for that?
posted by bitteschoen at 10:23 AM on June 18, 2016
That’s what I don’t understand. How is it possible he could get away with that - not the sale of a horror house, but basically creating the horror house in the first place? Isn’t that the illegal part? Now that they found out how bad it was, shouldn’t he face charges for that?
posted by bitteschoen at 10:23 AM on June 18, 2016
This reminds me of Hoodwinked House, although that guy was deliberately defrauded by shady house flippers, while this house seems to be a victim of decades of neglect and idiocy.
posted by Metroid Baby at 10:42 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Metroid Baby at 10:42 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
When I can't sleep I'll look at houses on zillow, just pick a random city and look at the pictures. It's like pinterest for houses. And it's more fun to stumble across bad real estate photos in their natural setting (this is one of my favorites ever, three sinks!). But there's this trend I've noticed when I look at the sales history of places that have obviously been flipped recently. Especially for houses that have a certain look, like it's all top of the line materials from Home Depot (not high end but made to look fancy), I see a lot of houses with short-term ownership after a renovation. Places will be bought and presumably renovated in six months, then sold, then put back on the market again. Is this a sign that something hinky is going on with investors playing games with capital gains, or maybe there's shell company stepping in to shield the company that did the slap-dash renovation from liability? Or is there a legit reason this happens enough for me to notice?
posted by peeedro at 10:49 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 10:49 AM on June 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Handy hint: You can read the posts in order with an "?order=asc" queryparam for the underlying WordPress engine.
Olivebridge Cottage posts in chronological order
posted by QuixoticGambit at 11:14 AM on June 18, 2016 [15 favorites]
Olivebridge Cottage posts in chronological order
posted by QuixoticGambit at 11:14 AM on June 18, 2016 [15 favorites]
It just seems like this guy is wasting the owner's time and should have realized he was in over his head immediately.
But is he getting paid? he's getting paid. there's several levels of histrionics going on here. the owners are making a scene because they aren't going to get the fashion forward fantasy they wanted at the price they wanted. the contractors are all like "this was done stupid, so you should pay me stupid money to fix it" and their designer friend is just trying to make himself seem relevant while he waits for the check to clear.
But this all starts with the home buyers wanting a bargain, a steal. and they can get it to of they can figure out who to steal from. usually the men doing the actual work... usually someone like me. honest. there's nothing special about this house for the Catskills. it just had some decorator touches. all of their neighbors, who aren't living in custom modernist mini mansions, have houses with the same problems.
posted by ennui.bz at 11:25 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
But is he getting paid? he's getting paid. there's several levels of histrionics going on here. the owners are making a scene because they aren't going to get the fashion forward fantasy they wanted at the price they wanted. the contractors are all like "this was done stupid, so you should pay me stupid money to fix it" and their designer friend is just trying to make himself seem relevant while he waits for the check to clear.
But this all starts with the home buyers wanting a bargain, a steal. and they can get it to of they can figure out who to steal from. usually the men doing the actual work... usually someone like me. honest. there's nothing special about this house for the Catskills. it just had some decorator touches. all of their neighbors, who aren't living in custom modernist mini mansions, have houses with the same problems.
posted by ennui.bz at 11:25 AM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is there anything that tech & materials advances can do to streamline the inspection or the fixing or the avoidance of creating problems in the first place?
(I did not read the blog, the comments here were plenty)
posted by Baeria at 11:29 AM on June 18, 2016
(I did not read the blog, the comments here were plenty)
posted by Baeria at 11:29 AM on June 18, 2016
Is there anything that tech & materials advances can do to streamline the inspection or the fixing or the avoidance of creating problems in the first place?
Nope
posted by mumimor at 11:40 AM on June 18, 2016
Nope
posted by mumimor at 11:40 AM on June 18, 2016
peeedro: Now I'm terribly curious as to why the person put in three sinks. Three well-spaced sinks in a big kitchen could be useful, two sinks next to each other could be useful as a really big two-basin sink, but three sinks in the same corner could only really be used by one person, and I am trying to think of a cooking or other kitchen speciality use that would call for transferring things between three sinks (and one of them a two basin, even!)
posted by tavella at 11:41 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 11:41 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Okay, having looked around, three and four compartment sinks are standard in commercial kitchens, including as corner configurations, so maybe the person who had the house built was planning on hosting large events and wanted to have a dish station. So maybe not that weird.
posted by tavella at 11:48 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 11:48 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Are there any religious dietary restrictions that would require two sinks, maybe?
Is there anything that tech & materials advances can do to streamline the inspection or the fixing or the avoidance of creating problems in the first place?
You could imagine high tech solutions for seeing into closed walls and so on, but just looking at the photos and the descriptions, there were a lot of warning signs that things weren't great, even though other issues would be completely hidden. Drainage issues, say, or that there would have been way too much flex in the floor with the rotten joists. Someone, probably either the previous owner or the one before them, did their best to hide the structural issues with the beadboard and other interior decorating, and the inspector was maybe complicit or just didn't do anything more than a cursory look at the surface, or maybe the buyers were told about issues and chose to ignore (though the blog says they were not told).
posted by Dip Flash at 11:49 AM on June 18, 2016
Is there anything that tech & materials advances can do to streamline the inspection or the fixing or the avoidance of creating problems in the first place?
You could imagine high tech solutions for seeing into closed walls and so on, but just looking at the photos and the descriptions, there were a lot of warning signs that things weren't great, even though other issues would be completely hidden. Drainage issues, say, or that there would have been way too much flex in the floor with the rotten joists. Someone, probably either the previous owner or the one before them, did their best to hide the structural issues with the beadboard and other interior decorating, and the inspector was maybe complicit or just didn't do anything more than a cursory look at the surface, or maybe the buyers were told about issues and chose to ignore (though the blog says they were not told).
posted by Dip Flash at 11:49 AM on June 18, 2016
Less flippantly: what was needed here were very basic skills which every single person within construction should have. (Though most probably don't).
Reading the blog, I note that there is no reflection on the different building technologies represented in the shack, and which properties these might have. There is no interest in or understanding of the history of the building, even though such knowledge might lead to more sustainable solutions. Essentially, the author is proposing solutions similar to the ones which have caused so much damage till now. Good grief
posted by mumimor at 11:49 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Reading the blog, I note that there is no reflection on the different building technologies represented in the shack, and which properties these might have. There is no interest in or understanding of the history of the building, even though such knowledge might lead to more sustainable solutions. Essentially, the author is proposing solutions similar to the ones which have caused so much damage till now. Good grief
posted by mumimor at 11:49 AM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Did somebody mention browsing Zillow? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
posted by lagomorphius at 12:17 PM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by lagomorphius at 12:17 PM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
But is he getting paid? he's getting paid. there's several levels of histrionics going on here. the owners are making a scene because they aren't going to get the fashion forward fantasy they wanted at the price they wanted. the contractors are all like "this was done stupid, so you should pay me stupid money to fix it" and their designer friend is just trying to make himself seem relevant while he waits for the check to clear.
I think you are ascribing too much animosity to this. There aren't any contractors, save the engineers referred to in the most recent post. Everything before that is the designer and his crew. He was hired because he's a friend of the owners, they liked his stuff and he thought it would be fun. Nobody involved realized how bad things were. He's pretty open that he's not a professional contractor, and it seems clear he wouldn't have taken on this project if he was aware of the work needed. But they are his friends, so he was trying to help them with one patchwork repair, except then another problem pops up, so he tries another patchwork repair, and then on and on and on. It's not that he's taking them for a ride, but that they really want this house and they really want him, and because they're his friends he's doing his best to help them with their dream. He seems pretty relieved they are finally hiring a professional inspector and engineers to actually do the assessment and get this fixed right. In many of his comments under the posts he talks about their emotional connection to the house and how that and the money they've invested already has driven this project forward.
Also, anyone wondering about the original inspection issues, here's what he says in a comment in response to someone asking about the inspector:
edit: gosh, I just realized half this stuff has already been addressed in earlier comments . . .
posted by Anonymous at 12:18 PM on June 18, 2016
I think you are ascribing too much animosity to this. There aren't any contractors, save the engineers referred to in the most recent post. Everything before that is the designer and his crew. He was hired because he's a friend of the owners, they liked his stuff and he thought it would be fun. Nobody involved realized how bad things were. He's pretty open that he's not a professional contractor, and it seems clear he wouldn't have taken on this project if he was aware of the work needed. But they are his friends, so he was trying to help them with one patchwork repair, except then another problem pops up, so he tries another patchwork repair, and then on and on and on. It's not that he's taking them for a ride, but that they really want this house and they really want him, and because they're his friends he's doing his best to help them with their dream. He seems pretty relieved they are finally hiring a professional inspector and engineers to actually do the assessment and get this fixed right. In many of his comments under the posts he talks about their emotional connection to the house and how that and the money they've invested already has driven this project forward.
Also, anyone wondering about the original inspection issues, here's what he says in a comment in response to someone asking about the inspector:
The inspector did pick up on some, but not all of this. Where things seem to have really broken down is how that information was conveyed to the owners, and how the owners interpreted it. With inspections, many things that could be hazards are pointed out, but the exact ramifications of those hazards are pretty vague beyond recommending that a “qualified ____ contractor come to evaluate further.” To my knowledge, the owners skirted some of the recommendations of the inspector, thinking things that ended up being big deals were not such big deals…NOT a good decision especially as a first-time homebuyer without any renovation experience to reference. Other things really should have been explained more thoroughly to them by their agent and/or the inspector, but weren’t. Personally, having seen the inspection report (after I was hired), I wouldn’t blame the inspector for this. This was the owner being a piece of shit, the agent being lousy at their job, and the homeowners lack of knowledge. There isn’t always just one finger to point, ya know?---
edit: gosh, I just realized half this stuff has already been addressed in earlier comments . . .
posted by Anonymous at 12:18 PM on June 18, 2016
Was someone living in this disaster before they bought it?
What he said about meeting the sellers:
What he said about meeting the sellers:
He basically started telling me about the various things in the house that didn’t work, and when I told him why (“yeah, that light didn’t turn on because squirrels had eaten through the wiring…”) he seemed somewhat less than surprised. His wife was saddened that our work was disrupting the lives of the “cute chippies” (chipmunks) that literally destroyed their house. Good gravy.posted by Anonymous at 12:29 PM on June 18, 2016
Dunning-Kruger Manor
This is beautiful, and I am retroactively naming one of our previous houses, which had seven and a half steps between the original house and addition - math is hard, y'all.
posted by Flannery Culp at 1:33 PM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is beautiful, and I am retroactively naming one of our previous houses, which had seven and a half steps between the original house and addition - math is hard, y'all.
posted by Flannery Culp at 1:33 PM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's an unfortunate corollary to this situation that I've run into. Meaning, the people who purchase a shabby-looking, but actually soundly-built property out in the boonies, and then get talked into "fixing" what doesn't need to be fixed. Often the shabby-looking part is because the original owner was thinking low maintenance.
"This roof will last ten years!"
"And ... the roof you had would have lasted another 50."
posted by lagomorphius at 2:14 PM on June 18, 2016
"This roof will last ten years!"
"And ... the roof you had would have lasted another 50."
posted by lagomorphius at 2:14 PM on June 18, 2016
I never got the American obsession with asphalt roofs and their condition. Back in Australia your choices are tile and colorbond steel and both require almost no maintenance and last forever.
posted by Talez at 2:30 PM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Talez at 2:30 PM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
We had a soldered seam terne steel roof put on our porch but they're pretty rare these days. We're in a historic district and wanted it to look like it did in 1869 and our contractor found just enough pallets of the roofing metal from a shutdown factory in Ohio to do the job.
posted by octothorpe at 2:49 PM on June 18, 2016
posted by octothorpe at 2:49 PM on June 18, 2016
I would hazard a guess that asphalt is chosen due to being cheaper to manufacture and cheaper to install, but not necessarily cheaper in the long run. But the people responsible for choosing the materials don't care about the long run, only the sale price, and they are already operating on thin margins.
posted by Rhomboid at 5:14 PM on June 18, 2016
posted by Rhomboid at 5:14 PM on June 18, 2016
I have been following Manhattan Nest for a while too, since around the time he bought his own house upstate, and this project made me uneasy from the beginning. He learned a lot from the ongoing renovation of his own house, but not enough to advise anyone else, I think. He has another house he is renovating, he calls it Bluestone Cottage, and that's a mess too. I think he's well intentioned, and willing to do the work, but is just really green.
You can see more info, and current pictures, on the owners' site.
posted by apricot at 6:15 PM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
You can see more info, and current pictures, on the owners' site.
posted by apricot at 6:15 PM on June 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
OMG, the owner's link! "We are getting free paint and linens from our sponsors! Follow along with Instagram!" Instagram: "What you see here is a hellhole of failed dreams, termites and squirrels."
posted by amanda at 6:46 PM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by amanda at 6:46 PM on June 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wow, it's morphed into a 2 story, 3 bedroom, 2 bath home now? I guess when you're at the point of having to reframe every wall and redo every roof, you might as well do some additions. I'll have to add the site to my RSS reader to see how that all went down.
posted by Rhomboid at 7:42 PM on June 18, 2016
posted by Rhomboid at 7:42 PM on June 18, 2016
This is why you should nevereverever buy a former summer cottage or cabin that was converted to a year round home by anyone less than a millionaire. They NEVER have real foundations or proper drainage because they were built by some guy and his friends on the weekend while drinking beer*. And the only reason they got converted pre-2005 was because someone didn't have enough money to buy a real house (back to the land types and the rural underemployed) or wanted to make a cheap rental property.
*Have done this. "Good enough, it's just a cabin" is a phrase often used.
posted by fshgrl at 7:45 PM on June 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
*Have done this. "Good enough, it's just a cabin" is a phrase often used.
posted by fshgrl at 7:45 PM on June 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
We keep going back and forth on buying, but between stories about banks foreclosing on people who never had a loan in the first place, and stories like these, it's hard to work up the enthusiasm for the soul-destroying process of searching for a home and paying for it for 40 years (should I live that long).
We've been renting for a long time, and there are definitely downsides, but in the end you can always move out pretty easily. You don't have a million-dollar albatross around your neck.
What would make me want to buy:
1. Serious, bad-people-going-to-jail reform of banking/mortgages
2. Advances in homebuilding technology (3-D printed houses, maybe, that have many fewer holes for damp/squirrels to invade and destroy and fewer chances for lazy contractors to fuck things up and cover them with drywall). My parents and brother built homes, and tried to do so ethically, but you can't watch everything your contractors do every second, and there are nearly infinite ways to screw up the innards of your standard balloon-frame house. If the house itself is sound, there is always the plumbing, or electrical, or something else to rot/break/fail. The general attitude about this is to shrug, whatcha gonna do, but this sure seems like the kind of thing technology could improve by a lot if we had the will.
Neither of these is likely to happen soon enough for me, I would not be surprised if we rented till we died or even ended up in an RV or something. I don't necessarily want to do that, but Jesus, your average suburban "dream home" seems like a shoddybuilt nightmare, without even getting into the squeeze of rising taxes/values and home flippers and fraudsters and various other things you have to fear.
posted by emjaybee at 8:17 PM on June 18, 2016
We've been renting for a long time, and there are definitely downsides, but in the end you can always move out pretty easily. You don't have a million-dollar albatross around your neck.
What would make me want to buy:
1. Serious, bad-people-going-to-jail reform of banking/mortgages
2. Advances in homebuilding technology (3-D printed houses, maybe, that have many fewer holes for damp/squirrels to invade and destroy and fewer chances for lazy contractors to fuck things up and cover them with drywall). My parents and brother built homes, and tried to do so ethically, but you can't watch everything your contractors do every second, and there are nearly infinite ways to screw up the innards of your standard balloon-frame house. If the house itself is sound, there is always the plumbing, or electrical, or something else to rot/break/fail. The general attitude about this is to shrug, whatcha gonna do, but this sure seems like the kind of thing technology could improve by a lot if we had the will.
Neither of these is likely to happen soon enough for me, I would not be surprised if we rented till we died or even ended up in an RV or something. I don't necessarily want to do that, but Jesus, your average suburban "dream home" seems like a shoddybuilt nightmare, without even getting into the squeeze of rising taxes/values and home flippers and fraudsters and various other things you have to fear.
posted by emjaybee at 8:17 PM on June 18, 2016
I own and live in a house like this. Well, it's not quite as bad. Quite - no termites or squirrels and the few mice incursions have been swiftly dealt with by the cat. But it is pretty insane. It was built fairly solidly sometime between the end of WWII and 1966, which is when it got hooked up to the city water and sewers and thus acknowledged as a house. For the next 40 years, many people lived here with lots of enthusiasm for building, little skill and no money. There's a room built of glass doors. There are huge speakers cemented into random walls. It's, um. Better since I found & fixed the leak from the main water line. But still not so good! And best to not even talk about the garage, which is a work unto itself. Oh ye gods! I had great plans but I ran out of money and now I just hope for the best. When I first bought it the home inspector said, it's crazy but it's mostly sound. He was, of course, mostly wrong. It hasn't fallen down around my ears quite yet, but the day may be coming.
At a party the weekend after I moved in a friend had a psychic reader in. I asked him about my love life, or lack thereof, and he said, oh, I foresee that soon there will be men crawling out of the woodwork.
Just a few days later, after the water got turned on, I tore out the crazy built in cabinets downstairs only to create a handsome indoor swimming pool - explaining perhaps why they had painted the concrete floor blue. Quite a lot of drywall all over the house had to be ripped out to discover the source and at one point I ran upstairs to relay a message from one pair of legs sticking out of the wall downstairs to another pair upstairs.
Yes, there were indeed men coming out of the woodwork.
That wasn't the leak from the main, btw. I wouldn't find or even suspect that one for another 5 years. But I am still fond of my house. It was all I could afford in the neighborhood where I had already been living for 8 years and it has its own quirky charm. Also, I'm keeping property values down (it's my own small protest; that's my weed choked gully damnit, that's indigenous poison ivy.) But when I eventually and inevitably sell it as a tear down, which will probably be pretty soon, because my neighborhood is too fancy for me now and they can build 3 vertical "eco" McMansions on this lot, I will be sad.
posted by mygothlaundry at 8:18 PM on June 18, 2016 [15 favorites]
At a party the weekend after I moved in a friend had a psychic reader in. I asked him about my love life, or lack thereof, and he said, oh, I foresee that soon there will be men crawling out of the woodwork.
Just a few days later, after the water got turned on, I tore out the crazy built in cabinets downstairs only to create a handsome indoor swimming pool - explaining perhaps why they had painted the concrete floor blue. Quite a lot of drywall all over the house had to be ripped out to discover the source and at one point I ran upstairs to relay a message from one pair of legs sticking out of the wall downstairs to another pair upstairs.
Yes, there were indeed men coming out of the woodwork.
That wasn't the leak from the main, btw. I wouldn't find or even suspect that one for another 5 years. But I am still fond of my house. It was all I could afford in the neighborhood where I had already been living for 8 years and it has its own quirky charm. Also, I'm keeping property values down (it's my own small protest; that's my weed choked gully damnit, that's indigenous poison ivy.) But when I eventually and inevitably sell it as a tear down, which will probably be pretty soon, because my neighborhood is too fancy for me now and they can build 3 vertical "eco" McMansions on this lot, I will be sad.
posted by mygothlaundry at 8:18 PM on June 18, 2016 [15 favorites]
This is why you should nevereverever buy a former summer cottage or cabin that was converted to a year round home by anyone less than a millionaire.
This was exactly the situation in that Maryland house. It was a beach house (built by the brother of our landlady at some point in the 60s) that had been kinda half-heartedly winterized and then put into service as a rental property. The property is currently for sale with the house as a tear down for $625k. Because beach-front. In a way it makes me a little sad, as much as I don't want anyone else to ever have to live in that death trap. It's a prime example of vernacular ass-pull architecture that's going to be replaced by a mcmansion.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:11 AM on June 19, 2016
This was exactly the situation in that Maryland house. It was a beach house (built by the brother of our landlady at some point in the 60s) that had been kinda half-heartedly winterized and then put into service as a rental property. The property is currently for sale with the house as a tear down for $625k. Because beach-front. In a way it makes me a little sad, as much as I don't want anyone else to ever have to live in that death trap. It's a prime example of vernacular ass-pull architecture that's going to be replaced by a mcmansion.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:11 AM on June 19, 2016
For a long time, I dreamed of buying my grandparents' house out in the country when they're no longer up to living it and rehabbing it theoretically just to update it from its 70s, uhhhh, "charm".
Not anymore.
posted by Sara C. at 6:38 AM on June 19, 2016
Not anymore.
posted by Sara C. at 6:38 AM on June 19, 2016
For a long time, I dreamed of buying my grandparents' house out in the country when they're no longer up to living it and rehabbing it theoretically just to update it from its 70s, uhhhh, "charm".
I'm currently living my Great, Great Grandparents house out in the country. It hasn't had much done to it for around 40 years.
I'll end up putting tons of money into it. I know this. Objectively it would be a whole lot smarter to buy something else but the emotional and social ties to this little money pit are so strong.
posted by Jalliah at 7:20 AM on June 19, 2016
I'm currently living my Great, Great Grandparents house out in the country. It hasn't had much done to it for around 40 years.
I'll end up putting tons of money into it. I know this. Objectively it would be a whole lot smarter to buy something else but the emotional and social ties to this little money pit are so strong.
posted by Jalliah at 7:20 AM on June 19, 2016
I think it can work if one's grandparents' house was professionally built in an urban/built-up suburban area to a realistic plan, before WW2. My grandparents' isn't quite as bad in terms of renovations on top of renovations, but it was built by my grandfather, who is not in construction at all, in the 60s, and has all kinds of "quirks" that may hide serious problems, like a mysterious half bath off the dining area which is strikingly similar to this project.
Known issues include completely rewiring the place and tons of plumbing and HVAC work.
posted by Sara C. at 7:36 AM on June 19, 2016
Known issues include completely rewiring the place and tons of plumbing and HVAC work.
posted by Sara C. at 7:36 AM on June 19, 2016
Wow, it's morphed into a 2 story, 3 bedroom, 2 bath home now? I guess when you're at the point of having to reframe every wall and redo every roof, you might as well do some additions. I'll have to add the site to my RSS reader to see how that all went down.
Aw, I'm kind of disappointed by the glimpses I've seen. I liked the cute, quirky design and layout of the original property. I was hoping they'd rebuild it into something similar, but it went from being a cottage to just another house.
posted by Anonymous at 11:50 AM on June 19, 2016
Aw, I'm kind of disappointed by the glimpses I've seen. I liked the cute, quirky design and layout of the original property. I was hoping they'd rebuild it into something similar, but it went from being a cottage to just another house.
posted by Anonymous at 11:50 AM on June 19, 2016
Oh man, as the survivor of an extensive remodel of a house built in 1890, I love this. I mean, I feel terribly for the buyer, but I'm so glad someone documented what can happen.
Generally, if there's a really obvious thing that needs doing and yet it hasn't been done, it's often that what seems like an easy task is actually made challenging by crappy or badly done stuff you can't see.
Exactly! That was what I was trying to explain here.
We recently tried to buy a home. Everywhere the inspector wrote that he lacked the expertise and to have it inspected by a more qualified professional, we did. So we had a chimney inspection and sewer line inspection and HVAC inspection and... The sellers got freaked out, and when we asked for minor changes to the purchase price to cover the crumbled clay sewer line, they said no, and were clearly indignant about the whole thing (even though we were still on schedule). Ah well. If they hadn't ever bought a money pit, it must be hard to relate to our caution.
I think many people just live with their house's problems. They either don't know that the person who installed a gas insert in the fireplace removed half the bricks that were the chimney's structural support, or they assume it's fine. If I had $500 for every time someone told us our first home "survived the last earthquake," it would've paid for replacing the brick foundation so that it survives the next one.
posted by slidell at 1:06 PM on June 19, 2016
Generally, if there's a really obvious thing that needs doing and yet it hasn't been done, it's often that what seems like an easy task is actually made challenging by crappy or badly done stuff you can't see.
Exactly! That was what I was trying to explain here.
We recently tried to buy a home. Everywhere the inspector wrote that he lacked the expertise and to have it inspected by a more qualified professional, we did. So we had a chimney inspection and sewer line inspection and HVAC inspection and... The sellers got freaked out, and when we asked for minor changes to the purchase price to cover the crumbled clay sewer line, they said no, and were clearly indignant about the whole thing (even though we were still on schedule). Ah well. If they hadn't ever bought a money pit, it must be hard to relate to our caution.
I think many people just live with their house's problems. They either don't know that the person who installed a gas insert in the fireplace removed half the bricks that were the chimney's structural support, or they assume it's fine. If I had $500 for every time someone told us our first home "survived the last earthquake," it would've paid for replacing the brick foundation so that it survives the next one.
posted by slidell at 1:06 PM on June 19, 2016
What an amazing cautionary tale. I'm never buying a fucking house.
#rentforever
posted by permiechickie at 4:47 PM on June 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
#rentforever
posted by permiechickie at 4:47 PM on June 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
A blogging and renovation project in the Catskills that will eventually be an Airbnb property.
That's frank of the owners. This whole thing is a mess in more ways than one.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:50 PM on June 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's frank of the owners. This whole thing is a mess in more ways than one.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:50 PM on June 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Our place is definitely a version of this, although the bones are good (20s kit bungalow) and one of the many renovators appears to have known what they were doing. The others . . . did not, and many of the major 'renovations' seem to have been done by broke alcoholics using a time/life home repair series that was missing several volumes.
There was a perfectly functional sump well where someone had simply cut the wires off the old hard-wired pump. The finished basement had been finished by someone who was totally cool with just setting untreated, un-vapor-barriered two-by-fours directly on top of unsealed concrete basement pad. In DC. Then laying carpet down directly atop same pad.
There was the tiny addition where whoever installed the drip guard behind the gutter did it backwards, so that it actually directed the water UNDER the siding. There was the resultant termite infestation. And there are still the weird angles, the improper electrical junctions, the home depot special tiles and cabinets, the fridge nook . . .
I still feel like we got off lucky compared to these folks. On the other hand, we have had to live here while dealing with all of it.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:55 PM on June 19, 2016
There was a perfectly functional sump well where someone had simply cut the wires off the old hard-wired pump. The finished basement had been finished by someone who was totally cool with just setting untreated, un-vapor-barriered two-by-fours directly on top of unsealed concrete basement pad. In DC. Then laying carpet down directly atop same pad.
There was the tiny addition where whoever installed the drip guard behind the gutter did it backwards, so that it actually directed the water UNDER the siding. There was the resultant termite infestation. And there are still the weird angles, the improper electrical junctions, the home depot special tiles and cabinets, the fridge nook . . .
I still feel like we got off lucky compared to these folks. On the other hand, we have had to live here while dealing with all of it.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:55 PM on June 19, 2016
Thank you for this.
My wife and I are currently having some work done on our house - we were $5000 over budget after day 1. Our living room currently looks like this. The dream was to remove some dumb pillars and restore the oak flooring, the reality is that some imbecile prior owner laid down multiple layers of linoleum (including 1 asbestos layer!) and tar-like mastic over the oak, not to mention the 4 foot gap by the far wall where there is no flooring whatsoever, just plywood, so we had to buy new oak to fill it in... a little dry rot, some questionable decisions on siding; by comparison, these are small time problems I guess. The mess our house turned out to be is NOTHING compared to the rodent-infested, rotting, insane jumble of sadness that the FPP describes. Wow. You made us feel a lot better about the small number of dumb decisions our home's prior owners made, because holy cow could it ever be worse!
posted by caution live frogs at 11:45 AM on June 20, 2016
My wife and I are currently having some work done on our house - we were $5000 over budget after day 1. Our living room currently looks like this. The dream was to remove some dumb pillars and restore the oak flooring, the reality is that some imbecile prior owner laid down multiple layers of linoleum (including 1 asbestos layer!) and tar-like mastic over the oak, not to mention the 4 foot gap by the far wall where there is no flooring whatsoever, just plywood, so we had to buy new oak to fill it in... a little dry rot, some questionable decisions on siding; by comparison, these are small time problems I guess. The mess our house turned out to be is NOTHING compared to the rodent-infested, rotting, insane jumble of sadness that the FPP describes. Wow. You made us feel a lot better about the small number of dumb decisions our home's prior owners made, because holy cow could it ever be worse!
posted by caution live frogs at 11:45 AM on June 20, 2016
What an amazing cautionary tale. I'm never buying a fucking house.
I feel compelled to respond to this. I think this particular buyer's situation kind of brought this upon themselves. People make different decisions about a house they are going to live in versus a house that they are planning to use as rental vs an AirBnB type situation. In that last one, all you really need is some surface gloss. (Well, and rodent free.) Since you'll be renting it out for a couple days at a time, you think that you can just put in some IKEA cabinetry and it'll run itself. Any issues with the place simply won't be a problem because your renter will be gone in quick time. People also have a similar calculation when buying a rental. They'll do things like glue down cheap flooring on oak because they just need it to be done and serviceable.
So, you want to try to discern if a property has been lived in by on-site owners or by an "investor." And when you're planning to live in a place, you probably won't fix the floors by slapping some cheap-ass linoleum down, you'll take more care because you want to have longevity and looks. You'll fix the leaky roof quickly, you'll choose finishes with more care, and so on. Most people do.
And when you are in a super hot market with top prices and you go looking outside your jurisdiction to spend your real estate money, you open yourself up to more risk. You don't really have a solid grasp on the appropriate price for the area and you may not have any sense of the history – properly zoned with active code enforcement or something a little more "homegrown"?
Every house will have issues – they need to be maintained. But every house isn't hiding this stuff. Honestly, this house wasn't hiding stuff that well either.
posted by amanda at 3:25 PM on June 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
I feel compelled to respond to this. I think this particular buyer's situation kind of brought this upon themselves. People make different decisions about a house they are going to live in versus a house that they are planning to use as rental vs an AirBnB type situation. In that last one, all you really need is some surface gloss. (Well, and rodent free.) Since you'll be renting it out for a couple days at a time, you think that you can just put in some IKEA cabinetry and it'll run itself. Any issues with the place simply won't be a problem because your renter will be gone in quick time. People also have a similar calculation when buying a rental. They'll do things like glue down cheap flooring on oak because they just need it to be done and serviceable.
So, you want to try to discern if a property has been lived in by on-site owners or by an "investor." And when you're planning to live in a place, you probably won't fix the floors by slapping some cheap-ass linoleum down, you'll take more care because you want to have longevity and looks. You'll fix the leaky roof quickly, you'll choose finishes with more care, and so on. Most people do.
And when you are in a super hot market with top prices and you go looking outside your jurisdiction to spend your real estate money, you open yourself up to more risk. You don't really have a solid grasp on the appropriate price for the area and you may not have any sense of the history – properly zoned with active code enforcement or something a little more "homegrown"?
Every house will have issues – they need to be maintained. But every house isn't hiding this stuff. Honestly, this house wasn't hiding stuff that well either.
posted by amanda at 3:25 PM on June 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah when they said they couldn't fit a couch into the living room my first thought was that these people really did not think through the purchase of this house. Like, at all.
posted by Sara C. at 4:15 PM on June 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Sara C. at 4:15 PM on June 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
« Older That'll really grind their corn | Music To Rip And Tear By Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by thewalrus at 11:58 PM on June 17, 2016 [5 favorites]