"...one of the lowest points in Batgirl’s 40+ year history."
July 23, 2016 12:41 PM Subscribe
Per @AcroNite7: idk how to feel about this
"Of course everybody knows that The Killing Joke has its controversial elements, so how do you make it exciting for the kids today? You add more controversy - namely you have SPOILERS AHOY [including the URL, so don't scroll over if you don't want to see]....
....Batman fuck Batgirl before she gets crippled. "
io9: The Killing Joke Movie Is a Disaster, Right Down to Its Comic-Con Panel
Batgirl previously.
"Of course everybody knows that The Killing Joke has its controversial elements, so how do you make it exciting for the kids today? You add more controversy - namely you have SPOILERS AHOY [including the URL, so don't scroll over if you don't want to see]....
....Batman fuck Batgirl before she gets crippled. "
io9: The Killing Joke Movie Is a Disaster, Right Down to Its Comic-Con Panel
Unfortunately, it’s what comes before and after the sex scene in The Killing Joke movie that makes it so much worse. Reports from fans who saw the movie at Comic-Con indicate that the first 30 minutes are an all-new prologue, before the remaining 45 minutes address the storyline of the original graphic novel. In that opening, we meet Barbara Gordon as a young librarian who has started donning the Batgirl costume in order to attract the attention of Batman—not just in crime-fighting prowess, but sexually, telling co-workers that she has “a man in her life” (throughout, Batman is apparently portrayed as emotionally distant from Barbara).The Hollywood Reporter:Comic-Con: 'Batman: The Killing Joke' Team Responds to Controversial Batgirl Sex Scene
This culminates in the sex scene moment mentioned above. After the encounter, Batman keeps away from Barbara, refusing to speak with her, leaving the young woman spurned (the film shows Barbara waiting for Batman to call her on the phone). Then, of course, the rest of The Killing Joke happens—and any fan of Batgirl knows how that plays out. Barbara is paralyzed in front of her own father after being shot in the stomach by the Joker, an infamous moment widely considered to be one of the lowest points in Batgirl’s 40+ year history.
But afterwards, things got heated when one fan asked this: "You have talked about how you wanted to give Barbara more story … and yet the story you gave her ended up being about the men in her life. Why?"The fan Azzarello called a pussy was Bleeding Cool writer Jeremy Konrad, who writes:
Screenwriter Brian Azzarello responded by calling Barbara "stronger than the men in her life in this story."
"She controls the men in her life in this story," he said.
The fan shouted, she was strong by "using sex" as he walked away from the mic, sparking a minutes-long discussion about the scene. When said he Azzarello couldn't hear what the fan said, he challenged the fan to repeat himself, saying, "Wanna say that again? Pussy?"
Others chimed in, saying they added sex and Batgirl "pining after Bruce" to the film.
The very last question posed to the panel addressed this. The question was asked by a person cosplaying as the Joker: Batgirl, Barbara Gordon is such a strong female character. Why was this more about the males in her life? The crowd applauded the question.Review of the film in question by Konrad.
As they fumbled with the question,saying they do feel like she is portrayed as a very strong female character, I lost control of my emotions and, invigorated by someone asking the question I wanted to hear, I shouted from the audience with frustrated sarcasm,
“Yeah, by using sex and then pining for Bruce.”
Batgirl previously.
I watched it last night and was super excited during my viewing. I threw out a few tweets about how great the voice-acting was (the return of Mark Hamil) .... and then it started to go downhill, very quickly. I was saddened to watch one of my favourite comic characters reduced in such a way. It is a very problematic sequence. It felt not at all in character. The DC Animated Universe is normally very strong, but this felt like a step backwards. The animation was also not as good as it has been in the past. The original comic was already fairly controversial with the way in which Barbara Gordon is injured. This just adds insult to injury. So I can see why so many people are upset at the way this played out. The R-Rating also feels like it was done more as a cash-grab. “Hey look, we're being edgy and adult, there's sex and violence and stuff. See, animation is still relevant.”
Ugh. I actually feel a bit gross having sent out my original tweets. I was too excited about Mark Hamil's return as The Joker. And the more I think about how that sequence plays out and how her character is established in this adaptation, the worse I feel. I'm glad I didn't financially support this in any way. Um...I found other ways of viewing. Ugh.
posted by Fizz at 12:56 PM on July 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Ugh. I actually feel a bit gross having sent out my original tweets. I was too excited about Mark Hamil's return as The Joker. And the more I think about how that sequence plays out and how her character is established in this adaptation, the worse I feel. I'm glad I didn't financially support this in any way. Um...I found other ways of viewing. Ugh.
posted by Fizz at 12:56 PM on July 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
The cartoon is R-rated because that's what we need, R-rated cartoons about children's characters,
Children's characters, Mandrake!
Um, being animated doesn't make it a kids' thing particularly. And some of the Batman feature films have been a couple of blood-splatters away from being R. And hasn't Batman been grown-up entertainment for quite a bit of its multi-decade history? In conclusion, fuck away, bat-people.
posted by Cookiebastard at 1:00 PM on July 23, 2016
Children's characters, Mandrake!
Um, being animated doesn't make it a kids' thing particularly. And some of the Batman feature films have been a couple of blood-splatters away from being R. And hasn't Batman been grown-up entertainment for quite a bit of its multi-decade history? In conclusion, fuck away, bat-people.
posted by Cookiebastard at 1:00 PM on July 23, 2016
But afterwards, things got heated when one fan asked this: "You have talked about how you wanted to give Barbara more story … and yet the story you gave her ended up being about the men in her life. Why?
And it's not just Barbara who suffers as a female in this adaptation. The Joker's wife is also reduced to an object in a similar way. Violence is visited upon almost all of the women characters in this adaptation.
posted by Fizz at 1:02 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
And it's not just Barbara who suffers as a female in this adaptation. The Joker's wife is also reduced to an object in a similar way. Violence is visited upon almost all of the women characters in this adaptation.
posted by Fizz at 1:02 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Man, this bums me out. I have tickets to go see it Monday with some friends, and now I'm hesitant to show up. At least the other elements of the movie are supposed to be good.
posted by Maecenas at 1:04 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Maecenas at 1:04 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Does Batman know that she's Gordon's daughter?
I mean, it's awful regardless, but I can enjoy the awfulness of it better if I have all the details straight.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 1:04 PM on July 23, 2016
I mean, it's awful regardless, but I can enjoy the awfulness of it better if I have all the details straight.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 1:04 PM on July 23, 2016
And hasn't Batman been grown-up entertainment for quite a bit of its multi-decade history? In conclusion, fuck away, bat-people.
There's nothing wrong with Batman being grown-up entertainment. There's nothing wrong with bat-people fucking. The issue is this:
-they are adapting a title known for the fact that it was about the crippling (& possible sexual exploitation) of Batgirl by the Joker;
-in order to "up the stakes" and pad things out this cartoon version has Barbara have sex with the Batman so that her becoming crippled is fuel for the Batman in going after the Joker. In short, it sounds like they tried to make this more edgy and relevant by doubling down on Batgirl getting friged to motivate the Batman;
-when they got called on it, they acted like shitheads instead of talking through their decision making process.
In short, DC continues to act like a bunch of clueless idiots about how to adapt and create their comics and superheros in a way that doesn't look like a bunch of teenage boys sitting around and saying "you know what would be cool?"
posted by nubs at 1:09 PM on July 23, 2016 [37 favorites]
There's nothing wrong with Batman being grown-up entertainment. There's nothing wrong with bat-people fucking. The issue is this:
-they are adapting a title known for the fact that it was about the crippling (& possible sexual exploitation) of Batgirl by the Joker;
-in order to "up the stakes" and pad things out this cartoon version has Barbara have sex with the Batman so that her becoming crippled is fuel for the Batman in going after the Joker. In short, it sounds like they tried to make this more edgy and relevant by doubling down on Batgirl getting friged to motivate the Batman;
-when they got called on it, they acted like shitheads instead of talking through their decision making process.
In short, DC continues to act like a bunch of clueless idiots about how to adapt and create their comics and superheros in a way that doesn't look like a bunch of teenage boys sitting around and saying "you know what would be cool?"
posted by nubs at 1:09 PM on July 23, 2016 [37 favorites]
Holy shit. Going straight from that really great Wonder Woman trailer to this is just...I have whiplash. This is fucking awful.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:14 PM on July 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:14 PM on July 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
And some of the Batman feature films have been a couple of blood-splatters away from being R. And hasn't Batman been grown-up entertainment for quite a bit of its multi-decade history? In conclusion, fuck away, bat-people.The real issue is that Barbara's been treated cruelly as a character for decades. Killing Joke came out as a comic in ~1988~. An opportunity was wasted to make her story more interesting than just getting gutshot and paralyzed. Worse than that: the writers made her even more impotent by having suffer batman's rejection after a weird, stupid hookup.
Nobody gives a shit about animated sexytimes here. It's DC continuing to fuck up the story of its female characters that's the problem.
posted by boo_radley at 1:15 PM on July 23, 2016 [23 favorites]
Yeah, fixating on "ooh this is more adult" completely misses the point.
Comics and cartoons can be more adult without being sexist and shitty about it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:20 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Comics and cartoons can be more adult without being sexist and shitty about it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:20 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Worth pointing out Brian Azzarello also wrote a couple titles for another celebration for Alan Moore, Before Watchmen(Twitter self-link).
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:20 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:20 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I actually care so much less about this movie than I do about a writer who, when charged with writing a sexist movie, calls a journalist a "pussy." Are you fucking serious? I know that IRL Tough Guy is one of the perennial Comic Book Writer Archetypes (I tend to go for Team Weirdo Mystic, myself), but this goes beyond a persona and into just WOW that was a poor choice of words.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:23 PM on July 23, 2016 [69 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:23 PM on July 23, 2016 [69 favorites]
"Don't see the new Ghostbusters, see The Killing Joke " has been the refrain of the unavoidable MRAs in my life. Now I get it.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:28 PM on July 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:28 PM on July 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
As the DCAU moves farther along since the death of Dwayne McDuffie, it's begun to echo the DC Cinenatic Universe in terms of understanding how their characters work. I'm not sure who's in charge over there anymore but the last DCAU I enjoyed watching was Justice League: Doom (which was McDuffie's last film he wrote).
posted by KingEdRa at 1:29 PM on July 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by KingEdRa at 1:29 PM on July 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
"Don't see the new Ghostbusters, see The Killing Joke " has been the refrain of the unavoidable MRAs in my life. Now I get it.
No, see, that can't be, because their real concern with these films is fidelity to the original material, and this is a totally faithful adaptation, right?
posted by middleclasstool at 1:32 PM on July 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
No, see, that can't be, because their real concern with these films is fidelity to the original material, and this is a totally faithful adaptation, right?
posted by middleclasstool at 1:32 PM on July 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
DC needs to fucking sort out its bro culture problem. I hung on with their titles through the Nu52 and really was looking forward to Scott Snyder's new Batman title, but I think I'm done. This plus the movies plus protecting a god damn serial harasser. They're off my pull list.
Sorry, Scott, I'll read everything you do at literally any other publisher.
posted by middleclasstool at 1:35 PM on July 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Sorry, Scott, I'll read everything you do at literally any other publisher.
posted by middleclasstool at 1:35 PM on July 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
I find that I don't actually much care to think about Batman doing it, at all
posted by thelonius at 1:35 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 1:35 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I find that I don't actually much care to think about Batman doing it, at all
Agreed. He's always been more of a symbol and less of a human in my eyes. A kind of mythological symbolic idea.
posted by Fizz at 1:37 PM on July 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Agreed. He's always been more of a symbol and less of a human in my eyes. A kind of mythological symbolic idea.
posted by Fizz at 1:37 PM on July 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
DC: Two steps forward (the WW and JL trailers), fifteen goddamn steps back.
posted by Gaz Errant at 1:38 PM on July 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Gaz Errant at 1:38 PM on July 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
Is there a scene where the Joker stuffs Babs in a fridge afterwards? Sounds like something Azzarello could have added to make the story more impactful.
Speaking of repeated impacts, does anyone else hear that banging coming from Gail Simone's desk?
posted by bonehead at 1:45 PM on July 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Speaking of repeated impacts, does anyone else hear that banging coming from Gail Simone's desk?
posted by bonehead at 1:45 PM on July 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
This comment over at io9 is also worth noting for anybody (rando MRAs) who tries to defend The Killing Joke crippling Barbara as a good thing:
Babs becoming Oracle is great. But don’t thank Killing Joke for that, it was more writers trying to salvage what Killing Joke did to Babs’ character. Comics rewrite character origins all the time. Can we get a different story about Babs becoming paraplegic in the line of duty and her journey to becoming Oracle? One that is Feminist and about her that DC can refer to instead of Killing Joke? The story just causes a lot of controversy and isolates a lot of women who enjoy the character and yet DC insists on keeping it a part of her character even though they could do better.posted by Fizz at 1:46 PM on July 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Babs becoming Oracle is great. But don’t thank Killing Joke for that, it was more writers trying to salvage what Killing Joke did to Babs’ character. Comics rewrite character origins all the time. Can we get a different story about Babs becoming paraplegic in the line of duty and her journey to becoming Oracle? One that is Feminist and about her that DC can refer to instead of Killing Joke? The story just causes a lot of controversy and isolates a lot of women who enjoy the character and yet DC insists on keeping it a part of her character even though they could do better.
But "The Killing Joke" is canon, and changing such a vital part of a character would be hard to do in an established univoh, who am I kidding, this is DC. They had to invent extra earths in other dimensions just to explain their own inconsistencies!
posted by ymgve at 1:50 PM on July 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
But "The Killing Joke" is canon, and changing such a vital part of a character would be hard to do in an established univoh, who am I kidding, this is DC. They had to invent extra earths in other dimensions just to explain their own inconsistencies!
posted by ymgve at 1:50 PM on July 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
Jesus. Have they at least changed the ending or do Batman and Joker still share a joke?
posted by gnuhavenpier at 2:00 PM on July 23, 2016
posted by gnuhavenpier at 2:00 PM on July 23, 2016
But "The Killing Joke" is canon, and changing such a vital part of a character would be hard to do in an established univoh, who am I kidding, this is DC.
Exactly. Canon is such a loose and almost meaningless term at this point with regard to comics and characters. So many different time-lines, alternate universes, etc.
posted by Fizz at 2:09 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Exactly. Canon is such a loose and almost meaningless term at this point with regard to comics and characters. So many different time-lines, alternate universes, etc.
posted by Fizz at 2:09 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't blame actors for going after a paycheck, but I'm sad that Hamill and Conroy signed on for this. Gonna have to do my same denial thing with the Star Wars prequels: It Never Happened.
posted by middleclasstool at 2:11 PM on July 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by middleclasstool at 2:11 PM on July 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, fixating on "ooh this is more adult" completely misses the point.
Comics culture has ended up with some fairly crappy ideas of what "adult" actually means floating around, TBH.
posted by Artw at 2:14 PM on July 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Comics culture has ended up with some fairly crappy ideas of what "adult" actually means floating around, TBH.
posted by Artw at 2:14 PM on July 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't even like the debate being about how "dark" it all is. Dark isn't the problem. Cynical and bigoted are problems. Dark is fine.
posted by middleclasstool at 2:23 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by middleclasstool at 2:23 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Barbara is paralyzed in front of her own father after being shot in the stomach by the Joker, an infamous moment ...
which is a symbolic rape, of course, and the paralysis completes the trope of rape, which would have rendered her valueless as a sex interest for Batman in the crypto-hyperpatriarchal DC universe -- and Batman had to break off all contact with her before that happened, or Batman would have suffered the severe emasculinization that happens to a dude-bro when a rival rapes his girlfriend.
posted by jamjam at 2:25 PM on July 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
which is a symbolic rape, of course, and the paralysis completes the trope of rape, which would have rendered her valueless as a sex interest for Batman in the crypto-hyperpatriarchal DC universe -- and Batman had to break off all contact with her before that happened, or Batman would have suffered the severe emasculinization that happens to a dude-bro when a rival rapes his girlfriend.
posted by jamjam at 2:25 PM on July 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
The problem with trying to be Alan Moore is that you actually have to be as skilled and talented as Alan Moore. You can't just add a bunch of "darkness" and expect to be taken seriously.
posted by suetanvil at 2:26 PM on July 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by suetanvil at 2:26 PM on July 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
Plus probably not pick up Moore himself as largely disowned as being pointlessly cruel.
posted by Artw at 2:29 PM on July 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:29 PM on July 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Seriously DC? In 2016 you pull this misogynistic shit? Fuck this, fuck DC, and frankly, fuck Alan Moore and his creepy attitudes toward women.
I'm gonna go read Strong Female Protagonist until I calm down.
posted by happyroach at 2:32 PM on July 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm gonna go read Strong Female Protagonist until I calm down.
posted by happyroach at 2:32 PM on July 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think what The Killing Joke really shows is that mainstream comics is so starved for ideas that even Alan Moore's crumbs become the basis of highly-touted projects. (Moore blew off the idea that the story was any great shakes long ago, and he was right.)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:33 PM on July 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:33 PM on July 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
But don’t thank Killing Joke for that, it was more writers trying to salvage what Killing Joke did to Babs’ character.
The writers in question were the late Kim Yale and her husband John Ostrander, in the pages of Suicide Squad, which IIRC forms the DNA of the upcoming film. (That is, the line-up's different and draws on what later writers have done, but they're the ones who created the modern version of the team as supervillains drafted into black-ops group run by Amanda Waller, etc.)
posted by bettafish at 2:37 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
The writers in question were the late Kim Yale and her husband John Ostrander, in the pages of Suicide Squad, which IIRC forms the DNA of the upcoming film. (That is, the line-up's different and draws on what later writers have done, but they're the ones who created the modern version of the team as supervillains drafted into black-ops group run by Amanda Waller, etc.)
posted by bettafish at 2:37 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
When Azzarello said he couldn't hear what the fan said, he challenged the fan to repeat himself, saying, "Wanna say that again? Pussy?"
That is completely fucking crazy. How does Azzarello think that this is a way that it's okay to address someone in 2016? In public, for Christ's sake. Some public relations person at DC would be completely losing their shit right now if literally anyone who worked for that company was aware of what public relations are.
posted by IAmUnaware at 2:45 PM on July 23, 2016 [32 favorites]
That is completely fucking crazy. How does Azzarello think that this is a way that it's okay to address someone in 2016? In public, for Christ's sake. Some public relations person at DC would be completely losing their shit right now if literally anyone who worked for that company was aware of what public relations are.
posted by IAmUnaware at 2:45 PM on July 23, 2016 [32 favorites]
FFS.
posted by homunculus at 2:46 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 2:46 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't blame actors for going after a paycheck, but I'm sad that Hamill and Conroy signed on for this.
Could be wrong, but didn't Hamill make some sort of 'I'd come back for The Killing Joke' statement which spawned a petition, etc.? Maybe he was looking at it from a performer's perspective, but it's goofy how many folks you think would be in position to recognize it as a wrong-headed/shallow story - Craig Mazin* called it one of the greatest graphic novels or something a couple weeks back - treat it like it's the bee's knee.
*His movies can be pretty meh, but he clearly knows what does and doesn't work in a story.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:46 PM on July 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Could be wrong, but didn't Hamill make some sort of 'I'd come back for The Killing Joke' statement which spawned a petition, etc.? Maybe he was looking at it from a performer's perspective, but it's goofy how many folks you think would be in position to recognize it as a wrong-headed/shallow story - Craig Mazin* called it one of the greatest graphic novels or something a couple weeks back - treat it like it's the bee's knee.
*His movies can be pretty meh, but he clearly knows what does and doesn't work in a story.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:46 PM on July 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's sad, on several levels. At the most superficial level, they made a movie of the Killing Joke, in 2016. Having decided to do that, they decided to have Barbara Gordon seek to empower herself (their words) by sleeping with the Batman (?!).
Not outdoing him. Not kicking his ass, or even fighting him to a draw. Screwing him, 'cause that's how a woman empowers herself. In 2016.
Look, I've got a copy of The Killing Joke - I bought it twenty-five years ago, enthralled by the idea of a canon Joker origin written by Alan Moore. The world has moved on since then, though, and while I guess I understand the economic motives for making a movie of the thing, I can't get my head around doubling down on the sexist bullshit.
In 2016. Sheesh.
posted by Mooski at 2:47 PM on July 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
Not outdoing him. Not kicking his ass, or even fighting him to a draw. Screwing him, 'cause that's how a woman empowers herself. In 2016.
Look, I've got a copy of The Killing Joke - I bought it twenty-five years ago, enthralled by the idea of a canon Joker origin written by Alan Moore. The world has moved on since then, though, and while I guess I understand the economic motives for making a movie of the thing, I can't get my head around doubling down on the sexist bullshit.
In 2016. Sheesh.
posted by Mooski at 2:47 PM on July 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
That is completely fucking crazy. How does Azzarello think that this is a way that it's okay to address someone in 2016? In public, for Christ's sake. Some public relations person at DC would be completely losing their shit right now if literally anyone who worked for that company was aware of what public relations are.
Doubly so, because the issue at hand has to do with a discussion about feminism and masculinity in the comic book universe. So, to try to emasculate and insult an individual because they simply asked a question about the story-telling process is obtuse and ugly. Talk about clueless.
posted by Fizz at 2:49 PM on July 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Doubly so, because the issue at hand has to do with a discussion about feminism and masculinity in the comic book universe. So, to try to emasculate and insult an individual because they simply asked a question about the story-telling process is obtuse and ugly. Talk about clueless.
posted by Fizz at 2:49 PM on July 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Gang, go add "Faith" to your pull-list and remove everything DC. Problem solved, humanity restored.
posted by jbickers at 2:52 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by jbickers at 2:52 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Doubly so, because the issue at hand has to do with a discussion about feminism and masculinity in the comic book universe.
Yeah, absolutely. The use of that particular word makes such a clear point in this context (about Azzarello's beliefs about femininity and masculinity) that it's pretty hard to believe he went looking for an insult in his head to shout and that's the first one that just happened to pop up. This definitely feels like a choice he made on purpose.
posted by IAmUnaware at 2:56 PM on July 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, absolutely. The use of that particular word makes such a clear point in this context (about Azzarello's beliefs about femininity and masculinity) that it's pretty hard to believe he went looking for an insult in his head to shout and that's the first one that just happened to pop up. This definitely feels like a choice he made on purpose.
posted by IAmUnaware at 2:56 PM on July 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I actually felt a bit abashed that my instinctive reaction to "Brian Azzarello, screenwriter" was "Of course." Then I got to the "pussy" remark and went, nope, got it right the first time. There's something that I've never liked about Azz's work, that flavor of someone who tries too hard to be a tough guy and ends up just being sort of obnoxious and overly derivative of better creators. His hash of Moore's characters in Before Watchmen might have convinced someone with a bit more self-awareness to give this one a pass, especially since Moore himself now finds it problematic. Shit like this is why I gave Azz's Wonder Woman a miss, even though I enjoy Cliff Chiang's art generally (his and Brian K. Vaughn's Paper Girls is good, though), and why I'll similarly pass on this.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:58 PM on July 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:58 PM on July 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Particularly sad because Batgirl is traditionally an empowered character. Robins get rescued and trained. Batgirl trains herself and shows up on the Gotham streets as a power in her own right. Batman's mentorship comes in the context of earned respect.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:05 PM on July 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:05 PM on July 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
Batgirl has always been one of my favourite characters in the DC universe, including her transition into Oracle. I really wish that we had more women and POC writing these stories. I have no doubt that the subject matter and stories that would be written would be improved upon. If anything, they'd offer some variety and change things up a bit, instead of the same old same.
posted by Fizz at 4:08 PM on July 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 4:08 PM on July 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would have doubled down on that remark that got Azarello all het up once I stopped laughing. "Yeah, do I need to speak up, old man?" Pretty sure I could take him.
posted by entropicamericana at 4:08 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by entropicamericana at 4:08 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's so many big name people to utterly loose respect for in this mess...
posted by Artw at 4:13 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:13 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Barbara Gordon’s Batgirl exceeded the earlier Bat-Girl and Batwoman characters in popularity, and readers requested for her to appear in other titles. Although some readers requested that Batwoman also continue to appear in publication, DC responded to the fan-based acclaim and criticism of the new character in an open letter in Detective Comics No. 417 (1971), stating:
"I'd like to say a few words about the reaction some readers have to Batgirl. These are readers who remember Batwoman and the other Bat-girls from years back ... They were there because romance seemed to be needed in Batman's life. But thanks to the big change and a foresighted editor, these hapless females are gone for good. In their place stands a girl who is a capable crime-fighter, a far cry from Batwoman who constantly had to be rescued [by] Batman."
That
is the POINT
of the character.
posted by delfin at 4:20 PM on July 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
"I'd like to say a few words about the reaction some readers have to Batgirl. These are readers who remember Batwoman and the other Bat-girls from years back ... They were there because romance seemed to be needed in Batman's life. But thanks to the big change and a foresighted editor, these hapless females are gone for good. In their place stands a girl who is a capable crime-fighter, a far cry from Batwoman who constantly had to be rescued [by] Batman."
That
is the POINT
of the character.
posted by delfin at 4:20 PM on July 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
I guess when they ran "shall we do Killing Joke as a cartoon?" everyone sensibke said no so there wasn't anyone left to run this by.
posted by Artw at 4:26 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:26 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also, while Bruce Wayne is not QUITE at Matt Murdock's level of Toxic Penis Syndrome, he's pretty close. Pretty much every woman who gets to see the Batpole (whether as Batman or as Bruce Wayne) checks off one or more of the following boxes:
Criminal [ ]
Murderess, some successful, some attempted [ ]
Brutally murdered [ ]
Fled Gotham City because JESUS CHRIST even just knowing Bruce Wayne is too dangerous [ ]
So yeah. Entirely natural that his response to his good friend Jim Gordon's daughter dressing like him, unmasking herself and mounting him on a rooftop is "...okay, gonna roll with this."
posted by delfin at 4:57 PM on July 23, 2016
Criminal [ ]
Murderess, some successful, some attempted [ ]
Brutally murdered [ ]
Fled Gotham City because JESUS CHRIST even just knowing Bruce Wayne is too dangerous [ ]
So yeah. Entirely natural that his response to his good friend Jim Gordon's daughter dressing like him, unmasking herself and mounting him on a rooftop is "...okay, gonna roll with this."
posted by delfin at 4:57 PM on July 23, 2016
Barf, no thank you to this whole thing. They made one of the grossest comics of all time somehow even worse, yikes. The Killing Joke is one of those stories that just plain did not happen on Earth-ETW. Absolutely absent from the Gotham in my head, like a big jar of Bat-midichlorians that no one asked for.
posted by EatTheWeek at 5:07 PM on July 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by EatTheWeek at 5:07 PM on July 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
I recall that Batman Beyond, the cartoon set in the future after Bruce Wayne hangs up the cowl, hinted at a past romantic relationship between Bruce and Barbara. It felt completely wrong there too, but there, the wrongness was completely intentional. The show's creators spoke about it, about how they put that in to reinforce the sense that the whole deal with Batman had gone sour during the time-skip.
Plus of course they didn't show Batman and Batgirl getting it on. This was a kid's show.
posted by baf at 5:38 PM on July 23, 2016
Plus of course they didn't show Batman and Batgirl getting it on. This was a kid's show.
posted by baf at 5:38 PM on July 23, 2016
Every time I think I'm going to give DC another chance, they change my mind for me.
posted by bq at 5:40 PM on July 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by bq at 5:40 PM on July 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
You can probably guess this already, but don't read the comments. The Nazis are out in full force, having been quasi-exiled from Twitter.
posted by Yowser at 5:57 PM on July 23, 2016
posted by Yowser at 5:57 PM on July 23, 2016
100 Bullets started off interesting, but ended up as a big misogynistic mess. Having women characters whose only way of getting respect is to be so BAD ASS that they can out dude a dude bro in a fight. Well, that and have sex / get killed.
posted by benzenedream at 6:33 PM on July 23, 2016
posted by benzenedream at 6:33 PM on July 23, 2016
‘batman: the animated series’ synopsis
written using a predictive text emulator
...and better than The Killing Joke...
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:41 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
written using a predictive text emulator
...and better than The Killing Joke...
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:41 PM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Alan Moore seems cursed to have every bit of his material inevitably turned into utter dogshit. Seriously when the Depp From Hell Adaptation is probably the highlight of the adaptions of your work you have seriously pissed off the karmic gods.
It was a needless edgy story when it came out and even Moore indicates that it's overrated. It just needs to fade away.
I actually think that the endless homages to year one and killing joke and other Batman works of the 80s is keeping DC and Batman trapped in a creative hell. It's kind of sad that Killing Joke is getting imported into DCAU when for the most part that is the best version of Batman still active in DC control.
posted by vuron at 7:12 PM on July 23, 2016
It was a needless edgy story when it came out and even Moore indicates that it's overrated. It just needs to fade away.
I actually think that the endless homages to year one and killing joke and other Batman works of the 80s is keeping DC and Batman trapped in a creative hell. It's kind of sad that Killing Joke is getting imported into DCAU when for the most part that is the best version of Batman still active in DC control.
posted by vuron at 7:12 PM on July 23, 2016
What. The fuck.
The appropriate response to complaints of fridging is not to double up on the fridging and add insult to injury by removing Barbara's agency in becoming Batgirl. Asshole writers.
posted by Deoridhe at 7:20 PM on July 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
The appropriate response to complaints of fridging is not to double up on the fridging and add insult to injury by removing Barbara's agency in becoming Batgirl. Asshole writers.
posted by Deoridhe at 7:20 PM on July 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Alan Moore seems cursed to have every bit of his material inevitably turned into utter dogshit. Seriously when the Depp From Hell Adaptation is probably the highlight of the adaptions of your work you have seriously pissed off the karmic gods.
Alan Moore has no input on the adaptations of work he created for DC, up to including whether the adaptations should even exist. (From Hell is not a DC property.) The real curse is that people hold him personally responsible for these shitshows over which he has no control.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:55 PM on July 23, 2016
Alan Moore has no input on the adaptations of work he created for DC, up to including whether the adaptations should even exist. (From Hell is not a DC property.) The real curse is that people hold him personally responsible for these shitshows over which he has no control.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:55 PM on July 23, 2016
The comic was already gross and terrible. Good to know they managed to make it even more gross and more terrible.
posted by kafziel at 8:18 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by kafziel at 8:18 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
fuck Alan Moore and his creepy attitudes toward women.
Um, well.
All these years later, The Killing Joke is still a hotly debated graphic novel. It's as beloved as a seminal Batman story as it is critiqued for its poor handling of Barbara's maiming as little more than a plot device to advance a story that was not her own. (A criticism that writer Alan Moore has since agreed with.)
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:27 PM on July 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Um, well.
All these years later, The Killing Joke is still a hotly debated graphic novel. It's as beloved as a seminal Batman story as it is critiqued for its poor handling of Barbara's maiming as little more than a plot device to advance a story that was not her own. (A criticism that writer Alan Moore has since agreed with.)
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:27 PM on July 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
This makes me so, so angry. I've already posted on MeFi before about how much I hated both The Killing Joke and Miller's Dark Knight Returns right from the day they were released, that I had no intention of ever seeing this movie. So it really, honestly surprised me when I read the reports about this development earlier in the day (and saw a clip). I didn't expect to have any kind of visceral reaction to this project and then wham! Huge reaction.
Not only does this do terrible things to Bab's character (Hello, Fridge!) it also does terrible, awful things to Bruce's. Yes, the playboy cover means he's a man whore to some degree (okay typing that I realized I hate the term 'man whore' but our language seems lacking in something else appropriate to use--or maybe I'm just too riled up to think straight) but the real Bruce under the cowl should be a decent, moral person with great integrity. In other words, he shouldn't be the kind of person who takes advantage of a young (underage?) person with a crush who has come to him for mentoring. What is he, one of those evil, tenured STEM profs that have been making the news for all the wrong reasons? There is no way, Mr. In-Control-of-his-Emotions should be succumbing to this kind of temptation. Heck, he shouldn't even be seeing it as a temptation.
Reading the initial post here about Azz's reaction just made the situation worse. I can't believe anybody with any kind of PR training (or even awareness) would use that kind of language in public. (Scratch that, I can believe it. I watched most of the RNC coverage, but I don't want to believe it.) I don't even know what to say in response to that report. I just want to bury my head and groan, and weep for the state of the world.
And since I'm bitching anyways, here's one more: why does the sex scene have to show Batgirl removing her top and revealing her bra? Why not show Batman pulling his top off? If they want sexy, shouldn't it be equal opportunity sexy? (I'll admit, they may show more, all I saw was a short clip posted online earlier today.) Oh right, because this crap is only being designed for a certain type of viewer and consumer.
Controversial my behind. This is just straight-up saying to your female customers, "we don't care about you one little bit." I just never understand why companies can be so stupid to dismiss a potential customer base so easily. You can still court your male buyers without actively working to make your female customers stampede away from you as quickly as their limbs can carry them.
Seriously, I'm so angry right now, I don't even know if this post makes any sense. Or even why I care at this point, but apparently I still do. And I'm not happy about that fact.
posted by sardonyx at 9:31 PM on July 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not only does this do terrible things to Bab's character (Hello, Fridge!) it also does terrible, awful things to Bruce's. Yes, the playboy cover means he's a man whore to some degree (okay typing that I realized I hate the term 'man whore' but our language seems lacking in something else appropriate to use--or maybe I'm just too riled up to think straight) but the real Bruce under the cowl should be a decent, moral person with great integrity. In other words, he shouldn't be the kind of person who takes advantage of a young (underage?) person with a crush who has come to him for mentoring. What is he, one of those evil, tenured STEM profs that have been making the news for all the wrong reasons? There is no way, Mr. In-Control-of-his-Emotions should be succumbing to this kind of temptation. Heck, he shouldn't even be seeing it as a temptation.
Reading the initial post here about Azz's reaction just made the situation worse. I can't believe anybody with any kind of PR training (or even awareness) would use that kind of language in public. (Scratch that, I can believe it. I watched most of the RNC coverage, but I don't want to believe it.) I don't even know what to say in response to that report. I just want to bury my head and groan, and weep for the state of the world.
And since I'm bitching anyways, here's one more: why does the sex scene have to show Batgirl removing her top and revealing her bra? Why not show Batman pulling his top off? If they want sexy, shouldn't it be equal opportunity sexy? (I'll admit, they may show more, all I saw was a short clip posted online earlier today.) Oh right, because this crap is only being designed for a certain type of viewer and consumer.
Controversial my behind. This is just straight-up saying to your female customers, "we don't care about you one little bit." I just never understand why companies can be so stupid to dismiss a potential customer base so easily. You can still court your male buyers without actively working to make your female customers stampede away from you as quickly as their limbs can carry them.
Seriously, I'm so angry right now, I don't even know if this post makes any sense. Or even why I care at this point, but apparently I still do. And I'm not happy about that fact.
posted by sardonyx at 9:31 PM on July 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
It was a needless edgy story when it came out
That's sort of not the case, though. It's more complicated than that. The needlessly edgy version of this story is the one that would be written today, which would conclude with Batman beating the Joker to death and acting all tortured about it but being really insistent that it was the only choice he had left (even though that plainly isn't true), and also there'd be a really graphic onscreen rape at some point. The point of the Killing Joke is actually still really solid and pretty capital-I Important: That even when your enemies are at their most monstrous, you have to do good. That retaliation isn't justice. The way they decided to portray "enemies at their most monstrous" is awfully problematic, but I think the rest of the story is still really good, even if the whole "upholding the moral order and proving by example why our way is better than their way" thing is apparently against the current editorial direction for Batman.
The moral of the story is pretty whatever the opposite of edgy is, I guess is the point I'm making. That Gordon makes a point of insisting that Joker be brought in by the book, that Batman goes out of his way to make an offer of rehabilitation... these are the things that make this story, and these are the things that make the story particularly important in the face of a Ben Affleck Batman who kills people with a grenade launcher, or the Batman of the Arkham games who definitely hospitalizes a couple thousand people with his bare hands. A new telling of this story was an opportunity to emphasize certain things about the Batman; unfortunately, the people retelling the story chose to emphasize certain things about the people retelling the story, instead.
posted by IAmUnaware at 9:32 PM on July 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
That's sort of not the case, though. It's more complicated than that. The needlessly edgy version of this story is the one that would be written today, which would conclude with Batman beating the Joker to death and acting all tortured about it but being really insistent that it was the only choice he had left (even though that plainly isn't true), and also there'd be a really graphic onscreen rape at some point. The point of the Killing Joke is actually still really solid and pretty capital-I Important: That even when your enemies are at their most monstrous, you have to do good. That retaliation isn't justice. The way they decided to portray "enemies at their most monstrous" is awfully problematic, but I think the rest of the story is still really good, even if the whole "upholding the moral order and proving by example why our way is better than their way" thing is apparently against the current editorial direction for Batman.
The moral of the story is pretty whatever the opposite of edgy is, I guess is the point I'm making. That Gordon makes a point of insisting that Joker be brought in by the book, that Batman goes out of his way to make an offer of rehabilitation... these are the things that make this story, and these are the things that make the story particularly important in the face of a Ben Affleck Batman who kills people with a grenade launcher, or the Batman of the Arkham games who definitely hospitalizes a couple thousand people with his bare hands. A new telling of this story was an opportunity to emphasize certain things about the Batman; unfortunately, the people retelling the story chose to emphasize certain things about the people retelling the story, instead.
posted by IAmUnaware at 9:32 PM on July 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
I've never sold off any comics before, but I just found myself looking up values for my first edition. Maybe now's the time to get rid of that vile work. Sadly, it's one of the few pieces in the collection that seems to have actually appreciated a bit (yes, I know I wouldn't get anywhere close to what the guides say it's worth, especially as it's not graded, although it is in great shape). Although somehow I suspect selling it would be like collecting blood money, and I'm not sure I want to profit from it, or put it in the hands of somebody who considers it to be worthwhile or great art.
posted by sardonyx at 10:09 PM on July 23, 2016
posted by sardonyx at 10:09 PM on July 23, 2016
Um, if you sell it and don't want the money, please let me know and I'll email my paypal address.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:04 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:04 PM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
We've come to a point where I can only accept the Lego version of Batman as canon, and hooray - the first trailer looks really promising [YT].
posted by bigendian at 4:41 AM on July 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by bigendian at 4:41 AM on July 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
to try to emasculate and insult an individual because they simply asked a question about the story-telling process is obtuse and ugly. Talk about clueless
I think it was because he wouldn't speak that last bit into the mic, but instead mumbled it while walking away. Like he didn't want to give Azzarello a chance to respond, and didn't have the strength to stand behind his words. Not defending Azzarello, but his choice of the word "pussy" had nothing to do with feminism or being asked questions. Just offering some insight into Azzarello's particular brand of jerk, which I think I have encountered before.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 11:40 AM on July 24, 2016
I think it was because he wouldn't speak that last bit into the mic, but instead mumbled it while walking away. Like he didn't want to give Azzarello a chance to respond, and didn't have the strength to stand behind his words. Not defending Azzarello, but his choice of the word "pussy" had nothing to do with feminism or being asked questions. Just offering some insight into Azzarello's particular brand of jerk, which I think I have encountered before.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 11:40 AM on July 24, 2016
Okay, dude, if you call someone a pussy after they accuse you of sexism, you are proving them right because as literally everyone -- and certainly a writer -- should know, "pussy" is a gendered insult that implies one is weak, "like a woman." So I understand Azzarello was upset or whatever, but don't try to bring that crap in here like this is Reddit or something. People here know exactly what he meant.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:49 AM on July 24, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:49 AM on July 24, 2016 [24 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Getting further into the finer points about "pussy" as an insult in this case is going to be counterproductive -- whatever his deal, seems like terrible judgment at best, so maybe we can just let that point rest.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:23 PM on July 24, 2016
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:23 PM on July 24, 2016
With guys like Azzarello or the Penny Arcade guys, what really stuns me is how deplorably shitty their sense is. The bro-ey sexist shit is (sadly) predictable enough, but when your career depends on people paying money for work with your name on it and you start publicly flinging shit and acting like you never evolved beyond your college drinking years, you're a goddamn moron.
posted by middleclasstool at 12:34 PM on July 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by middleclasstool at 12:34 PM on July 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
The definitive awkward Bat-sex scene isn't even this one. It's this one between Babs and Dick Grayson, mostly for Babs's good-morning on-liner.
posted by delfin at 3:15 PM on July 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by delfin at 3:15 PM on July 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wow. I'm glad that issue slipped by me. Somehow I missed that bit of Titans/Bat history. And it wasn't even subtle. I meant they practically telegraphed the outcome as soon as Dick said where he had been. What an ugly piece of work.
posted by sardonyx at 6:57 PM on July 24, 2016
posted by sardonyx at 6:57 PM on July 24, 2016
Man, this bums me out. I have tickets to go see it Monday with some friends, and now I'm hesitant to show up.
Same here. I think I'll meet my friends for dinner & beer beforehand -- looks like I can get a refund on tickets up to the posted showtime, so I don't have to decide immediately.
I never liked this story much to begin with, but went in on tickets because a friend is a huge Batman fan and I do like the animated series a lot. Meh.
posted by asperity at 6:52 AM on July 25, 2016
Same here. I think I'll meet my friends for dinner & beer beforehand -- looks like I can get a refund on tickets up to the posted showtime, so I don't have to decide immediately.
I never liked this story much to begin with, but went in on tickets because a friend is a huge Batman fan and I do like the animated series a lot. Meh.
posted by asperity at 6:52 AM on July 25, 2016
Batman: The Killing Joke and why you can't just 'update' sexist source material
Director Sam Liu and writer Brian Azzarello have added a half hour of new story on to the beginning of the narrative, in which they methodically turn Batgirl into a clumsy agglomeration of misogynist tropes. Pursued by a creepy stalker mafia tough-guy villain, Batgirl makes amateurish mistake after amateurish mistake, prompting Batman to sneer to her face that the bad guy “led you like a lap dog”.posted by nubs at 8:51 AM on July 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
In response, Batgirl whines that Batman doesn’t trust her, has impulsive sex with him, and then indulges in a series of violent emotional tantrums before deciding to retire her Batgirl identity on the grounds that the stress is too much for her.
As a bonus, Batman hypocritically lectures her on the dangers of objectification while the bad guy compulsively and smarmily sexualizes her, and the cartoon lingers on a closeup image of her butt when she jogs.
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posted by Etrigan at 12:52 PM on July 23, 2016 [24 favorites]