Private Companies.....IN SPACE
August 5, 2016 12:44 PM Subscribe
Florida Company Gets Approval to Put Robotic Lander on Moon. Moon Express, a small startup based in Florida, is the first private enterprise to receive approval to land on a celestial body. If successful, such a feat would win the Google Lunar X Prize.
Of course, challenges remain.
Of course, challenges remain.
Moon Express has a ways to go before it can reach the lunar surface, which it hopes to do next year. It still has to assemble the lander. The rocket that it plans to launch on has yet to fly even once.Reuters:
The spacecraft will carry a number of science experiments and some commercial cargo on its one-way trip to the lunar surface, including cremated human remains, and will beam back pictures and video to Earth, the company said.
“Everything we fight over — whether it’s land or it’s fresh water, whether it is energy — is in abundance in space.”
There's religion in space?
posted by leotrotsky at 12:56 PM on August 5, 2016 [12 favorites]
There's religion in space?
posted by leotrotsky at 12:56 PM on August 5, 2016 [12 favorites]
Oh, this is fantastic! I know a lot of people are ... unhappy ... about capitalist motivations in such things, but if you're an American, this is the only way we're ending up in space again and the only way in which space technology can have remotely as profound impact on our society as the original Space Race did.
And while other countries' may actually understand that significant government investment into space-business is a good idea, I don't think America will until it's proven there's not just profit to be made up there, but profit to be lost by taking too long.
posted by griphus at 12:58 PM on August 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
And while other countries' may actually understand that significant government investment into space-business is a good idea, I don't think America will until it's proven there's not just profit to be made up there, but profit to be lost by taking too long.
Moon Express said that it had not yet decided on a landing site, but that it would defer to NASA’s wishes and stay away from the Apollo sites.WHAT ARE THEY HIDING
posted by griphus at 12:58 PM on August 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
...I mean, I guess that's where Russell's teapot is.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:58 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 12:58 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
“Everything we fight over — whether it’s land or it’s fresh water, whether it is energy — is in abundance in space.”
So much more to fight over then!
also good luck drinking that water and settling that land in space
posted by Existential Dread at 12:58 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
So much more to fight over then!
also good luck drinking that water and settling that land in space
posted by Existential Dread at 12:58 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's religion in space?
Well, when there are people in space there will be religion also.
(And most religious wars in history have actually been wars over resources, with religion merely providing a convenient casus belli.)
posted by tobascodagama at 1:01 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, when there are people in space there will be religion also.
(And most religious wars in history have actually been wars over resources, with religion merely providing a convenient casus belli.)
posted by tobascodagama at 1:01 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's religion in space?
Crocodylus pontifex
posted by griphus at 1:03 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Crocodylus pontifex
posted by griphus at 1:03 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
They're lucky my countryman Gajardo, the real owner, died a while ago, or they might have a harder time getting permission again.
posted by signal at 1:10 PM on August 5, 2016
posted by signal at 1:10 PM on August 5, 2016
Weird. No one owns the moon... but we still need approval from someone to fly to the moon, because someone owns the air between surface and sky?
What if we launch from an uninhabited island, perhaps owned by a country with lax regulations or even entirely unclaimed. Let's say the flight is carefully coordinated to not pass through airspace of any major countries after launch. Do we then still need "approval" to fly to the moon?
posted by caution live frogs at 1:11 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
What if we launch from an uninhabited island, perhaps owned by a country with lax regulations or even entirely unclaimed. Let's say the flight is carefully coordinated to not pass through airspace of any major countries after launch. Do we then still need "approval" to fly to the moon?
posted by caution live frogs at 1:11 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
(Ah, I see. The moon is now owned by the Chilean people. So, were I to launch from my said private uninhabited island, I would simply first have to speak with my Chilean friend, verify which section of the moon was his, and land there, with his gracious permission. I think he'd let me, he owes me for my assistance with his doctoral work.)
posted by caution live frogs at 1:16 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by caution live frogs at 1:16 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
As far as I'm aware, a large part of getting something into space is assembling and launching what is essentially an ICBM (sans nuclear warhead.) Even if you move to Peter Thiel's Discount Offshore Libertarian Paradise, someone with the ability to stop the operation will see you doing it.
posted by griphus at 1:16 PM on August 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by griphus at 1:16 PM on August 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
wait, why would you need US approval to land something on the moon? Y'all don't own the damned moon.
posted by Hoopo at 1:22 PM on August 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Hoopo at 1:22 PM on August 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
The spacecraft will carry a number of science experiments and some commercial cargo on its one-way trip to the lunar surface, including cremated human remains, and will beam back pictures and video to Earth, the company said.
Really? Human remains? There's nothing better that they could put in their mass budget than human remains? Why even fucking bother with going to the Moon, then?
posted by indubitable at 1:23 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Really? Human remains? There's nothing better that they could put in their mass budget than human remains? Why even fucking bother with going to the Moon, then?
posted by indubitable at 1:23 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
WHAT ARE THEY HIDING
Crocodylus pontifex
posted by clockzero at 1:24 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Crocodylus pontifex
posted by clockzero at 1:24 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd imagine they'd be able to raise a lot of money for their mission from people wishing to put a mote of their loved ones ashes onto the moon.
posted by Static Vagabond at 1:27 PM on August 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Static Vagabond at 1:27 PM on August 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's nothing better that they could put in their mass budget than human remains?
I suspect someone is paying way over the payload cost to get those remains out there. This is what happens when it's no longer exclusively a government/scientific operation; you get all sorts of weird shit going out into space because someone has the money to make it happen and at this stage the operation can use money a whole lot more than it needs to get specific stuff into space. It might be human remains, bored Russian Oligarchs, children's letters to god, whatever.
posted by griphus at 1:28 PM on August 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
I suspect someone is paying way over the payload cost to get those remains out there. This is what happens when it's no longer exclusively a government/scientific operation; you get all sorts of weird shit going out into space because someone has the money to make it happen and at this stage the operation can use money a whole lot more than it needs to get specific stuff into space. It might be human remains, bored Russian Oligarchs, children's letters to god, whatever.
posted by griphus at 1:28 PM on August 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's religion in space?
By Klono's carbotanium claws, of course there is!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:29 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
By Klono's carbotanium claws, of course there is!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:29 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
children's letters to god
And meanwhile we still don't know if ants can be trained to sort tiny screws in space.
posted by teponaztli at 1:32 PM on August 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
And meanwhile we still don't know if ants can be trained to sort tiny screws in space.
posted by teponaztli at 1:32 PM on August 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Weird. No one owns the moon... but we still need approval from someone to fly to the moon, because someone owns the air between surface and sky?
It's because because countries have signed a treaty with each other on acceptable and unacceptable activities in space. So if you are a citizen of one of those countries, it falls to your country to ensure that when you represent your nation you're not going to break the treaty and start an international incident.
This is done (presumably) by denying approval to those who seem like space-hooligans and astro-delinquents. (Moon-taggers are ok though, so-long as their graffiti is art not vandalism.)
posted by -harlequin- at 1:37 PM on August 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's because because countries have signed a treaty with each other on acceptable and unacceptable activities in space. So if you are a citizen of one of those countries, it falls to your country to ensure that when you represent your nation you're not going to break the treaty and start an international incident.
This is done (presumably) by denying approval to those who seem like space-hooligans and astro-delinquents. (Moon-taggers are ok though, so-long as their graffiti is art not vandalism.)
posted by -harlequin- at 1:37 PM on August 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
(Moon-taggers are ok though, so-long as their graffiti is art not vandalism.)
CHA
posted by griphus at 1:41 PM on August 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
CHA
posted by griphus at 1:41 PM on August 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
It's a pity because I kind of like the idea of being a space-hooligan :-/
posted by -harlequin- at 1:45 PM on August 5, 2016
posted by -harlequin- at 1:45 PM on August 5, 2016
If they have a naming contest I vote "Whitey".
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:48 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:48 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
As far as I'm aware, a large part of getting something into space is assembling and launching what is essentially an ICBM (sans nuclear warhead.) Even if you move to Peter Thiel's Discount Offshore Libertarian Paradise, someone with the ability to stop the operation will see you doing it.
That's why I hired Richard Kiel to make sure everything goes as planned.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:51 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's why I hired Richard Kiel to make sure everything goes as planned.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:51 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
At least one of those dudes actually does look a bit like how I'd always pictured D.D. Harriman.
posted by brennen at 1:57 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by brennen at 1:57 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Let's remember the important point: the moon is within the Catholic Diocese of Orlando. (Or, at least it was. Maybe Canon Law has been updated since.)
posted by Alluring Mouthbreather at 2:19 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Alluring Mouthbreather at 2:19 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
(whispering) "air, air is the other element, you forgot air"
Well if there's water it's pretty easy to generate the O2 part of the atmosphere, and apparently nitrogen is available!
As great as NASA is it's only ever going to be a research effort which for long term efforts in space there's a huge bootstrapping problem. Once there is a small amount of ability to manufacture some of the heavy stuff and grow some food the cost per person will drop radically. Think of moving to Australia, most can at least imagine affording a plane ticket and perhaps a container, but what if you needed to take all your food, water and housing?
So this is just great, perhaps with this, SpaceX pushing launch efficiency and the efforts to find an asteroid to mine we will be a multi-planet species soon!
posted by sammyo at 2:25 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well if there's water it's pretty easy to generate the O2 part of the atmosphere, and apparently nitrogen is available!
As great as NASA is it's only ever going to be a research effort which for long term efforts in space there's a huge bootstrapping problem. Once there is a small amount of ability to manufacture some of the heavy stuff and grow some food the cost per person will drop radically. Think of moving to Australia, most can at least imagine affording a plane ticket and perhaps a container, but what if you needed to take all your food, water and housing?
So this is just great, perhaps with this, SpaceX pushing launch efficiency and the efforts to find an asteroid to mine we will be a multi-planet species soon!
posted by sammyo at 2:25 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Like seriously, screw private space ventures that exist for just commercial reasons. Getting to the moon is expensive in rocket fuel and other limited resources which are used up in the effort, the time of incredibly skilled scientists and engineers, and I don't care if the company funds it totally themselves, that stuff is also needed for actual countries with actual liabilities that can't just be bankruptcy'd away and actual scientific goals, across the globe, far more so than some group that mostly just desires to use the moon for mining activities, which is what Moon Express is, a bunch of fucking venture capitalists who've run out of new and exciting ways to 'disrupt' industries that are regulated for very good reasons, and have now decided that 'exploiting' the fucking moon is their next move.
Their explicit, open goal is to mine the moon for resources they can make money off of if able, and the moon has no environmental regulations. If they succeed and no one stops them, then we can all say good bye to the legitimacy of ANY scientific mission anyone on Earth (NASA, India, the ESA, Russia, Japan and China (and any others I might have missed.)) might launch, and they all have WAY more of a right to have accurate scientific measurements on the Moon (even for no other reason than pure inqury) than these chucklefucks have a right to start exploring the Moon for mining operations that destroy anything like a pristine environment to study, even as much as we've effected it so far.
I hope every rocket they build has design flaws that take it back to the drawing board, and if they get something on the launchpad I hope it blows up and all their work and money with it, because once space becomes a fucking capitalist endeavor that is profitable we can kiss goodbye to anything resembling an idealistic and ethical approach to space exploration.
posted by neonrev at 2:25 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Their explicit, open goal is to mine the moon for resources they can make money off of if able, and the moon has no environmental regulations. If they succeed and no one stops them, then we can all say good bye to the legitimacy of ANY scientific mission anyone on Earth (NASA, India, the ESA, Russia, Japan and China (and any others I might have missed.)) might launch, and they all have WAY more of a right to have accurate scientific measurements on the Moon (even for no other reason than pure inqury) than these chucklefucks have a right to start exploring the Moon for mining operations that destroy anything like a pristine environment to study, even as much as we've effected it so far.
I hope every rocket they build has design flaws that take it back to the drawing board, and if they get something on the launchpad I hope it blows up and all their work and money with it, because once space becomes a fucking capitalist endeavor that is profitable we can kiss goodbye to anything resembling an idealistic and ethical approach to space exploration.
posted by neonrev at 2:25 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
These are fucking space miners, anyone honestly think that mining is done safely and ethically even when it directly effects living people on Earth?
There should be an International Council of Space-Faring Nations to say no to this kind of nonsense. If companies want to explore space for resources, then they can damned well do it within the space programs of a nation that has pre-existing standards for sterile crafts and scientifically useful missions, not as a bunch of fucking freewheelers just doing what's cheapest and fastest.
The current system is not great, but I assure you private space exploration would be far, far worse.
posted by neonrev at 2:30 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
There should be an International Council of Space-Faring Nations to say no to this kind of nonsense. If companies want to explore space for resources, then they can damned well do it within the space programs of a nation that has pre-existing standards for sterile crafts and scientifically useful missions, not as a bunch of fucking freewheelers just doing what's cheapest and fastest.
The current system is not great, but I assure you private space exploration would be far, far worse.
posted by neonrev at 2:30 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
...we can kiss goodbye to anything resembling an idealistic and ethical approach to space exploration.
I think the period of idealistic and ethical approaches to space exploration was an anomaly in the long term, especially considering the origins of the American space program being a dick-swinging contest run by (fooooooormer?) Nazi scientists.
Fortunately, because Congress banned the US from working with the Chinese on their nascent space-mining program, we'll have some good ole American-style friendly competition to fuel this particular space race.
Hopefully no Nazis this time, though, former or otherwise.
posted by griphus at 2:39 PM on August 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think the period of idealistic and ethical approaches to space exploration was an anomaly in the long term, especially considering the origins of the American space program being a dick-swinging contest run by (fooooooormer?) Nazi scientists.
Fortunately, because Congress banned the US from working with the Chinese on their nascent space-mining program, we'll have some good ole American-style friendly competition to fuel this particular space race.
Hopefully no Nazis this time, though, former or otherwise.
posted by griphus at 2:39 PM on August 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
You ever look at the utterly incredible cost of getting stuff out of a gravity well? What's up there that's rare enough on earth to be valuable yet plentiful enough on the moon to absorb the costs of moving shit to and from the moon?
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:40 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:40 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Its strange to me that they required US Government approval at all. Its the moon. There are no nation-states that own the moon.
- I can imagine needing approval to launch something in US Airspace but the way its phrased suggests the US was trying to stop companies specifically going to the moon.
posted by mary8nne at 2:42 PM on August 5, 2016
- I can imagine needing approval to launch something in US Airspace but the way its phrased suggests the US was trying to stop companies specifically going to the moon.
posted by mary8nne at 2:42 PM on August 5, 2016
You ever look at the utterly incredible cost of getting stuff out of a gravity well? What's up there that's rare enough on earth to be valuable yet plentiful enough on the moon to absorb the costs of moving shit to and from the moon?
The idea is to rid us of garbage that won't go away. No cost too great, etc.
posted by zarq at 2:43 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
The idea is to rid us of garbage that won't go away. No cost too great, etc.
posted by zarq at 2:43 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
complaining about the "waste" seems to overlook all those other pointless wasteful activities we engage in all the time... Rio Olympics for example? What's the point of Sports at all? How many children could you feed on a Pro-Sports salary?
posted by mary8nne at 2:45 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mary8nne at 2:45 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
What about sports in space? That seems pretty noble.
posted by griphus at 2:45 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by griphus at 2:45 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
What's up there that's rare enough on earth to be valuable yet plentiful enough on the moon to absorb the costs of moving shit to and from the moon?
For complicated / irrelevant reasons a friend has suddenly acquired 180,000 tons of moon cheese.
posted by beerperson at 2:49 PM on August 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
For complicated / irrelevant reasons a friend has suddenly acquired 180,000 tons of moon cheese.
posted by beerperson at 2:49 PM on August 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
All these landing sites are yours, except around the Apollo sites. Attempt no landing there!
- Sincerely, totally-not-the-lizard-people.
posted by blue_beetle at 3:05 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
- Sincerely, totally-not-the-lizard-people.
posted by blue_beetle at 3:05 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wait, "Moon Express"? Really? Now I have the Futurama theme song stuck in my head. The part right before the Planet Express crashes into the billboard. Dooda do do dong dong CRASH.
posted by selfmedicating at 3:18 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by selfmedicating at 3:18 PM on August 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Like seriously, screw private space ventures
Totally do not comprehend this sentiment. Let's take one science, astronomy. Now there are big expensive telescopes looking through the fog of atmosphere. Now if there were an infrastructure on the moon to smelt and process metal imagine the quality and size of a telescope on the dark side of the moon.
I'm so happy to have several swarthy conniving insanely huge trillionaires if it kickstarts the exo-planet infrastructure. Saying it'll "change the world" misses the point, changes the solar system, changes humanity, make the third planet one big park, move all the nasty stuff out where no one cares. Need a pristine space rock? Look up and left, millions for investigation.
posted by sammyo at 4:00 PM on August 5, 2016
Totally do not comprehend this sentiment. Let's take one science, astronomy. Now there are big expensive telescopes looking through the fog of atmosphere. Now if there were an infrastructure on the moon to smelt and process metal imagine the quality and size of a telescope on the dark side of the moon.
I'm so happy to have several swarthy conniving insanely huge trillionaires if it kickstarts the exo-planet infrastructure. Saying it'll "change the world" misses the point, changes the solar system, changes humanity, make the third planet one big park, move all the nasty stuff out where no one cares. Need a pristine space rock? Look up and left, millions for investigation.
posted by sammyo at 4:00 PM on August 5, 2016
still no money for clean water and mosquito nets. ugh.
posted by j_curiouser at 4:05 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by j_curiouser at 4:05 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
You ever look at the utterly incredible cost of getting stuff out of a gravity well? What's up there that's rare enough on earth to be valuable yet plentiful enough on the moon to absorb the costs of moving shit to and from the moon?
A potential future avenue for human or post-human existence and development which isn't at the bottom of this particular gravity well?
I'm sure this particular effort is probably doooooooom doomy doomed, but, ok: I know the too-smart-to-believe-in-stuff-people consensus or whatever is that space-is-stupid-you-rubes, and I know for real that interstellar travel is vanishingly unlikely any time before the species is extinct because it's unbelievably hard and we're unbelievably fragile and we're all working pretty hard at going out of business as a species as it is, but I still refuse to get on board the space-is-stupid-you-rubes bandwagon.
As to whether private enterprise in space is guaranteed to be a shitty idea and we should leave it to state actors, well, ok, I hate capitalism too but last I checked basically the only state actors who even pretend to give a shit about space at this point aren't states I'm a citizen of, and the likelihood of the US economy mobilizing to do space stuff again absent the profit motive and a bunch of land grab opportunities seems just about exactly nil.
posted by brennen at 4:07 PM on August 5, 2016
A potential future avenue for human or post-human existence and development which isn't at the bottom of this particular gravity well?
I'm sure this particular effort is probably doooooooom doomy doomed, but, ok: I know the too-smart-to-believe-in-stuff-people consensus or whatever is that space-is-stupid-you-rubes, and I know for real that interstellar travel is vanishingly unlikely any time before the species is extinct because it's unbelievably hard and we're unbelievably fragile and we're all working pretty hard at going out of business as a species as it is, but I still refuse to get on board the space-is-stupid-you-rubes bandwagon.
As to whether private enterprise in space is guaranteed to be a shitty idea and we should leave it to state actors, well, ok, I hate capitalism too but last I checked basically the only state actors who even pretend to give a shit about space at this point aren't states I'm a citizen of, and the likelihood of the US economy mobilizing to do space stuff again absent the profit motive and a bunch of land grab opportunities seems just about exactly nil.
posted by brennen at 4:07 PM on August 5, 2016
we can kiss goodbye to anything resembling an idealistic and ethical approach to space exploration
i mean? who cares? imperialistic space capitalism is hilarious to me because really what are the chances of us finding any alien races to oppress
even better what if we find technologically superior beings who destroy humanity once and for all, that would be gr8
what if we find a planet that is just full of happy puppers and no people, i want to go there
posted by poffin boffin at 6:10 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
i mean? who cares? imperialistic space capitalism is hilarious to me because really what are the chances of us finding any alien races to oppress
even better what if we find technologically superior beings who destroy humanity once and for all, that would be gr8
what if we find a planet that is just full of happy puppers and no people, i want to go there
posted by poffin boffin at 6:10 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
I suspect someone is paying way over the payload cost to get those remains out there. This is what happens when it's no longer exclusively a government/scientific operation; you get all sorts of weird shit going out into space because someone has the money to make it happen and at this stage the operation can use money a whole lot more than it needs to get specific stuff into space.
Yeah, but this is more than, "well, that's just how it is". It's a sign that capitalism, as a system, is grossly misallocating resources when some rich person's whim to put someone's cremated ashes on the Moon takes precedence over putting something actually useful and beneficial to humanity up there.
posted by indubitable at 6:16 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but this is more than, "well, that's just how it is". It's a sign that capitalism, as a system, is grossly misallocating resources when some rich person's whim to put someone's cremated ashes on the Moon takes precedence over putting something actually useful and beneficial to humanity up there.
posted by indubitable at 6:16 PM on August 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
The whole point of the X-prizes is to prompt R&D to advance the technologies involved and drive down the cost. The Chinese Chang'e-2 mission cost about $150 million and it didn't land, even assuming the Chang'e-3 cost exactly the same this is still a 5-fold decrease in price for a lunar landing mission.
I don't care if they put a 50' neon Taco Bell sign on the first one, making it cheaper means all the societally-beneficial payloads you can think of have a chance to go up on the second one.
posted by Skorgu at 7:21 PM on August 5, 2016
I don't care if they put a 50' neon Taco Bell sign on the first one, making it cheaper means all the societally-beneficial payloads you can think of have a chance to go up on the second one.
posted by Skorgu at 7:21 PM on August 5, 2016
Its strange to me that they required US Government approval at all.
This is because of the Outer Space Treaty. They need approval of the US government because they're US citizens. The US, along with about 130 other countries, agreed to take responsibility for anything their citizens do in space, and to regulate their conduct.
If you're a stateless person launching a satellite from an un-flagged platform in international waters, there's probably no applicable law that requires you to get any country's permission. In the other hand, that's another way of saying that you're an unexpected, lawless random tossing something that looks a lot like an ICBM over other countries' territory. They'd probably express their DISapproval rather clearly.
posted by CHoldredge at 8:29 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is because of the Outer Space Treaty. They need approval of the US government because they're US citizens. The US, along with about 130 other countries, agreed to take responsibility for anything their citizens do in space, and to regulate their conduct.
If you're a stateless person launching a satellite from an un-flagged platform in international waters, there's probably no applicable law that requires you to get any country's permission. In the other hand, that's another way of saying that you're an unexpected, lawless random tossing something that looks a lot like an ICBM over other countries' territory. They'd probably express their DISapproval rather clearly.
posted by CHoldredge at 8:29 PM on August 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's not just permission they need:
"shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty"
So the government could saddle them with all those pesky safety rules and whatnot, make them sterilize the spacecraft, etc. Guess they better get busy deciding what the rules are before they have to start supervising.
posted by ctmf at 9:15 PM on August 5, 2016
"shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty"
So the government could saddle them with all those pesky safety rules and whatnot, make them sterilize the spacecraft, etc. Guess they better get busy deciding what the rules are before they have to start supervising.
posted by ctmf at 9:15 PM on August 5, 2016
It's a sign that capitalism, as a system, is grossly misallocating resources when some rich person's whim to put someone's cremated ashes on the Moon takes precedence over putting something actually useful and beneficial to humanity up there.
Really? Just what is there that we can put on the Moon that's useful and beneficial to humanity? And just how much of the budget are you going to allocate for that?
Basically, your argument, whether you intend it to be so or not, is that space exploration should remain a hobby of the extremely wealthy countries, to be abandoned as soon as a new weapon system or agricultural subsidy is needed. Large-scale exploration, development and colonization only happens with an economic motive. Without such, resources will be spent where they can show more efficient returns.
posted by happyroach at 3:37 AM on August 6, 2016
Really? Just what is there that we can put on the Moon that's useful and beneficial to humanity? And just how much of the budget are you going to allocate for that?
Basically, your argument, whether you intend it to be so or not, is that space exploration should remain a hobby of the extremely wealthy countries, to be abandoned as soon as a new weapon system or agricultural subsidy is needed. Large-scale exploration, development and colonization only happens with an economic motive. Without such, resources will be spent where they can show more efficient returns.
posted by happyroach at 3:37 AM on August 6, 2016
Large-scale exploration, development and colonization only happens with an economic motive.
But didn't you just argue the opposite? That there will always be something smarter and less frivolous to spend our finite amount of money on?
Maybe the large-scale expansion would happen from economic incentive, but the initial r&d to discover that is only going to come from some rich person's "fuck you, I think it's cool, so there" money.
Which, rereading, now I'm not sure if that's actually what you're saying or not.
posted by ctmf at 11:34 AM on August 6, 2016
But didn't you just argue the opposite? That there will always be something smarter and less frivolous to spend our finite amount of money on?
Maybe the large-scale expansion would happen from economic incentive, but the initial r&d to discover that is only going to come from some rich person's "fuck you, I think it's cool, so there" money.
Which, rereading, now I'm not sure if that's actually what you're saying or not.
posted by ctmf at 11:34 AM on August 6, 2016
Just what is there that we can put on the Moon that's useful and beneficial to humanity? And just how much of the budget are you going to allocate for that?
donald trump, and as much as it takes
posted by poffin boffin at 11:45 AM on August 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
donald trump, and as much as it takes
posted by poffin boffin at 11:45 AM on August 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
These are fucking space miners, anyone honestly think that mining is done safely and ethically even when it directly effects living people on Earth?
What do "ethically" and "safely" even mean in the context of (probably) robots mining totally lifeless rocks?
posted by Pyry at 11:48 AM on August 6, 2016
What do "ethically" and "safely" even mean in the context of (probably) robots mining totally lifeless rocks?
posted by Pyry at 11:48 AM on August 6, 2016
But didn't you just argue the opposite? That there will always be something smarter and less frivolous to spend our finite amount of money on?
Governments tend to have different and broader priorities than private citizens.
Maybe the large-scale expansion would happen from economic incentive, but the initial r&d to discover that is only going to come from some rich person's "fuck you, I think it's cool, so there" money.
Yeah, pretty much. I don't see more than a trickle of government money going to space R&D in the future.
Bear in mind I don't see major development in space outside of satellite deployment as ever being profitable outside of maybe an investment scam. The expenses are too high, and the returns too low. That's why I think that interplanetary exploration will eventually die off, and colonization will never happen. But in that case, one might as well let the corporations try.
What do "ethically" and "safely" even mean in the context of (probably) robots mining totally lifeless rocks?
Yeah. As my old astronomy teacher said of the moon "It's goddamn rock."
posted by happyroach at 12:09 PM on August 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Governments tend to have different and broader priorities than private citizens.
Maybe the large-scale expansion would happen from economic incentive, but the initial r&d to discover that is only going to come from some rich person's "fuck you, I think it's cool, so there" money.
Yeah, pretty much. I don't see more than a trickle of government money going to space R&D in the future.
Bear in mind I don't see major development in space outside of satellite deployment as ever being profitable outside of maybe an investment scam. The expenses are too high, and the returns too low. That's why I think that interplanetary exploration will eventually die off, and colonization will never happen. But in that case, one might as well let the corporations try.
What do "ethically" and "safely" even mean in the context of (probably) robots mining totally lifeless rocks?
Yeah. As my old astronomy teacher said of the moon "It's goddamn rock."
posted by happyroach at 12:09 PM on August 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
The biggest problem is getting the infrastructure (human, robot, etc) into space to begin collecting resources there and building stuff, for whatever reason. If corporations or rich people want to do it for dumbshit reasons, that's ok. Nobody else is even bothering because there isn't enough benefit to doing so. That might change once it get easier to get there and do stuff there.
I really don't understand the extreme pessimism that pops up around any kind of space exploration. It's hard, it's expensive, it's dangerous, it's not profitable -- those things could change. Things always do.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:09 PM on August 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
I really don't understand the extreme pessimism that pops up around any kind of space exploration. It's hard, it's expensive, it's dangerous, it's not profitable -- those things could change. Things always do.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:09 PM on August 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's religion in space?
No atheists in wormholes, son.
posted by resurrexit at 11:41 AM on August 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
No atheists in wormholes, son.
posted by resurrexit at 11:41 AM on August 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I haven't played Kerbal Space Program yet. How much more work is it to get a probe out to the asteroid belt compared to the moon?
And how realistic is asteroid mining within 50 years?
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:32 AM on August 9, 2016
And how realistic is asteroid mining within 50 years?
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:32 AM on August 9, 2016
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posted by srboisvert at 12:53 PM on August 5, 2016