Did the ‘Two-Fingered Salute’ really come from the Hundred Years War?

August 22, 2016 3:42 PM

I found this after giving my 9-year-old daughter the apparently incorrect version of the story. ”However it really came about, we can be pretty sure that it’s bugger all to do with medieval archers.”
posted by dfm500 (35 comments total)

Summary: It did not. Archers used 3 fingers, and the french threatened to remove all three. Where did the two-finger version originate? We don't know.

Personally, I think the British should switch to the 3-finger salute.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:51 PM on August 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

V
posted by Fizz at 3:54 PM on August 22, 2016

All the other rude gestures that I know are symbolic representations of genitalia or intercourse. A parsimonious explanation is that this one is, too.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:57 PM on August 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

All the other rude gestures that I know are symbolic representations of genitalia or intercourse. A parsimonious explanation is that this one is, too.

I mean, there's a fairly obvious candidate here as well.
posted by tobascodagama at 4:00 PM on August 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

I was thinking of a different two fingered salute and was about to tell you that it clearly came from the Fighting Tongs.
posted by selfnoise at 4:18 PM on August 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

My understanding was that another form of the gesture includes sticking the thumb between the crotch of the two fingers, thus making it clearer what the gesture implies. But who knows where I picked up that particular bit of knowledge. Not primary sources, so far as I am aware.
posted by Scattercat at 4:29 PM on August 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

With the British V-sign the upward thrust is the rude gesture, whereas the US 1 finger salute is more about holding up your static middle finger as long as necessary.
Also, somehow the V-Sign is ruder if you put your other hand on your bicep first. Never quite understood that bit.
posted by w0mbat at 4:35 PM on August 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Everyone knows English longbow troops were huge Vanilla Ice Fans. Over time the gesture morphed.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:40 PM on August 22, 2016

This does raise the question of where the expression "Bugger All" came from yet for some reason I don't want to google for it.
posted by srboisvert at 4:48 PM on August 22, 2016

Also, somehow the V-Sign is ruder if you put your other hand on your bicep first.

That's not at all a British thing. The french exchange students I knew as a kid used to use a 'grab bicep as you raise a fist' symbol that seemed to be all about 'go fuck yourself' or 'up your arse'. Maybe you're thinking of that? There is no embellishment of the v-sign with bicep grabbing in any part of the UK I have been to (which is pretty much all of it, and insulted people luxuriously throughout).
posted by Brockles at 4:48 PM on August 22, 2016

It is indeed a British thing, although I wouldn't describe it as just grabbing your bicep but slamming your other forearm into the inside of your elbow and then pivoting your arm around it as you raise the V sign.
posted by Flashman at 5:12 PM on August 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

"This does raise the question of where the expression "Bugger All" came from yet for some reason I don't want to google for it."

Bogomil heresy.
posted by klangklangston at 5:18 PM on August 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

It is indeed a British thing,

Never seen a single person do that in all my years. You're going to need to cite some examples, I'm afraid. I've never once seen any embellishments to the 'v-sign' insult that weren't the usual 'rotate invisible crank next to knuckles to slowly raise digits' or the 'can you hear this (upside down v-sign) or shall I *dramatic pause*....turn it up' kind of self aware/awesomely amusing ott stuff.
posted by Brockles at 5:24 PM on August 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

V
posted by Flashman at 5:28 PM on August 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mr. Weeyin, a Glasgow native and resident as of 2012 tells me the two fingered salute is one gesture, and the "slamming your (left, let's say) forearm into the inside of your (right) elbow while raising your (right) fist is an entirely different gesture. Two fingered = "fuck off" Arm slam/fist raise = "up yours" The arm slam/fist raise often sometimes comes with laughter, he says. He has no idea where either originated, however.
posted by weeyin at 5:48 PM on August 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Interesting. Anyone recognise the kit in the (1970's?) football picture Flashman links to? Is that a Scottish club? Is this a regional thing?
posted by Brockles at 5:57 PM on August 22, 2016

Because I'll bow to a Glaswegian when it comes to enthusiastically insulting people.
posted by Brockles at 5:57 PM on August 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Summary: It did not. Archers used 3 fingers, and the English claimed that the french threatened to remove all three.
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:25 PM on August 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fun article, completely agree with the conclusion, and love the propaganda speech. But to indulge in some light nitpicking, I have a logical problem with the "nail in the coffin" to the theory being that you need all three main fingers to draw a longbow. While presumably true, that still means cutting off two fingers (or even one) would be a good threat--ie, it doesn't disprove the mutilation theory at all. The complete lack of primary evidence is the main problem.
posted by mark k at 8:28 PM on August 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also, on stories like this I'm reminded of fake etymologies that involve thinking "word A sounds a bit like word B so this bizarre story of how they're connected is probably true" or "this word is an acronym of this phrase." That they make good narratives means they get repeated and the actual account--the boring Old English German sounding word and centuries of consonant shift--doesn't.

Helen Zalztman of the Allusionist has fun with this sort of fake story, and debunking them. Same thing applies to the two-fingered salute; it's a memorable story but it isn't true.
posted by mark k at 8:33 PM on August 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Brockles: That's Tommy Smith, who played with Liverpool 1962-1978. The kit is Liverpool..more or less. Maybe a mix of pieces for a ceremonial appearance or something similar?
posted by weeyin at 10:17 PM on August 22, 2016

I remember as a kid reading in a Desmond Morris book that the two fingers thing likely comes from an old Italian(?) gesture where ones nose was placed in crook of the V. Very old book so maybe debunked, and may be ill remembered (though I read it many times as I am both Glaswegian and nerdy so this chapter was perfect for little-me).
posted by Gratishades at 3:50 AM on August 23, 2016

I cannot make a three fingered salute comfortably, so I'm not surprised that the archers decided to just stick up two of them.
posted by Akke at 4:46 AM on August 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

man, I was just thinking of this topic in the car ride this morning. Of course my train of thought lead through eventually to the high-school fact that "fuck" was not actually a dirty word because it was an old initialism for "fornicating under consent king."

Oh but you see, my imagined retort went, they spelled it with a Y back then and pronounced it "thornicating"

morning brains, I tell ya.
posted by rebent at 5:37 AM on August 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mr. Weeyin, a Glasgow native and resident as of 2012 tells me the two fingered salute is one gesture, and the "slamming your (left, let's say) forearm into the inside of your (right) elbow while raising your (right) fist is an entirely different gesture. Two fingered = "fuck off" Arm slam/fist raise = "up yours" The arm slam/fist raise often sometimes comes with laughter, he says. He has no idea where either originated, however.

I've seen it in Australia.
posted by acb at 6:39 AM on August 23, 2016

Only seen the arm slam on Law and Order, assumed it was American. Never seen it in the UK (though I'm sure people do it), certainly never in conjunction with the V sign (which is usually done with both hands, a la Rik Mayall).
posted by tinkletown at 7:22 AM on August 23, 2016

Seen the arm slam in Germany, combined with the bird.
posted by Omnomnom at 9:00 AM on August 23, 2016

I always thought it was some hot-blooded-Mediterranean thing, possibly brought over by Italian or Greek migrants, and perhaps the sign language for a mortal insult to the recipient's masculinity and/or female relatives.
posted by acb at 9:01 AM on August 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also, on stories like this I'm reminded of fake etymologies that involve thinking "word A sounds a bit like word B so this bizarre story of how they're connected is probably true" or "this word is an acronym of this phrase."

You just reminded me of the undergrad class I was in where one of my classmates brought up the whole "golf" coming from "gentlemen only, ladies forbidden" thing as actual fact. The instructor didn't really say anything, so I took it upon myself to shut it down quickly (but politely). Ordinarily I wouldn't have bothered, but this was a linguistics class.

This was also the class with the leather-cowboy-hatted guy who just Did Not Get It on a number of points, including that yes, what we speak today is in fact English, not some sort of bizarre Old English-based creole as he kept insisting. He also once asked, in all seriousness, if Henry VIII was responsible for the King James Bible. /digression
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 9:35 AM on August 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

The arm slam is known as the Bras d'honneur ("arm of honor"), Iberian slap, or Italian salute.
posted by Etrigan at 11:34 AM on August 23, 2016

The modern world has the Roman thumbs up/thumbs down gesture backwards. In ancient Rome, the emperor gave the thumbs down sign (meaning "swords down") to spare the life of a losing combatant. Thumbs up ("swords up") meant that the loser fought poorly and deserved to die, i.e. 'kill them.'*

Our modern use is wrong, but it doesn't debunk the origin of the gesture. It's just an indication that our understanding of the gesture was corrupted over time.

Similarly, the fact that three fingers are required to use a longbow doesn't necessarily invalidate the origin.

The loss of the middle and index fingers would likely be sufficient to prevent an archer from using a bow efficiently, so it's not necessarily inconsistent logically. There could have been a corruption of the story or the gesture itself, from three fingers to two. Or the gesture could be a more recent revival derived from an inaccurate understanding of the history (as is the case with the Roman thumbs up/ thumbs down).

The fact that the ancient document commonly used to validate the meaning of the "V" gesture has only surfaced recently adds weight against the popular archery origin, but it doesn't necessarily invalidate the possibility that the story had another (now obscure) source, or was passed down verbally.

Of course, the archery explanation sounds a little too good to be true. And it probably is. The scarcity of documents in the historical gap between the alleged historical origin and the modern era is another major strike against it.

Unscientifically, it also sounds suspiciously like countless other false etymologies of vulgar terms that young people use to explain away obscene neologisms to their gran.

But it would be more convincing to provide evidence of its actual origin, especially a more recent one, e.g. that it originated in modern punk culture, as suggested by others.

* In terms of historical accuracy, every thumbs you give on Facebook or in real life means 'kill them.'
posted by Davenhill at 12:04 PM on August 23, 2016

The modern world has the Roman thumbs up/thumbs down gesture backwards. In ancient Rome, the emperor gave the thumbs down sign (meaning "swords down") to spare the life of a losing combatant. Thumbs up ("swords up") meant that the loser fought poorly and deserved to die, i.e. 'kill them.'*

Historians differ on this:

In determining the outcome of gladiatorial combat, there is no indication how the crowd demonstrated its verdict regarding the defeated gladiator. Pollice verso translates simply as "turned thumb," but the manner or direction is not known.

posted by Etrigan at 1:05 PM on August 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

The modern world has the Roman thumbs up/thumbs down gesture backwards. In ancient Rome, the emperor gave the thumbs down sign (meaning "swords down") to spare the life of a losing combatant. Thumbs up ("swords up") meant that the loser fought poorly and deserved to die, i.e. 'kill them.'*

Also, "decimate".
posted by acb at 4:44 PM on August 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Excellent link Etrigan, thank you!

I guess that only further underscores how difficult it is to be certain of even those gestures with a known origin.*

Apparently there's even uncertainly about the origins of the modern American thumbs up. The favored theory is that it originated in China with the America Flying Tigers, became popular throughout the US military, and was eventually carried into Europe by American troops.

* And come to the think of it, it seems more fitting that a Roman -- Italian, anyway -- gesture for killing someone should be a bit more... demonstrative) :)
posted by Davenhill at 7:24 PM on August 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can't remember where I came across it, but I do remember a theory saying that the Roman thumbs-up was supposed to be thumb towards the throat, because a victorious gladiator would execute his opponent by pulling the head back and stabbing down through the throat towards the heart. That's a clear route without much in the way of skeleton to cause problems.
posted by regularfry at 12:34 AM on August 24, 2016 [1 favorite]