It's the pits
August 27, 2016 1:10 PM Subscribe
“We have at least one dramatic ancient story that illustrates the danger of hooking your house up to a public sewer in the first or second century AD. The author Aelian tells us about a wealthy Iberian merchant in the city of Puteoli; every night a giant octopus swam into the sewer from the sea and proceeded up through the house drain in the toilet to eat all the pickled fish stored in his well-stocked pantry.”Talk about nightmare fuel.
posted by Fizz at 1:16 PM on August 27, 2016 [34 favorites]
I'd go with the toilet flames as the nightmare fuel:
Even worse, these public latrines were notorious for terrifying customers when flames exploded from their seat openings. These were caused by gas explosions of hydrogen sulphide (H2S) and methane (CH4) that were rank as well as frightening.
posted by dinty_moore at 1:18 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Even worse, these public latrines were notorious for terrifying customers when flames exploded from their seat openings. These were caused by gas explosions of hydrogen sulphide (H2S) and methane (CH4) that were rank as well as frightening.
posted by dinty_moore at 1:18 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Instead of toilet paper, they had a communal sponge on a stick.
posted by fatbird at 1:30 PM on August 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by fatbird at 1:30 PM on August 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
"Ceres"-[research for monograph on the boar skin whoopie-cushion and laughing latrine lantern lamp]
posted by clavdivs at 1:41 PM on August 27, 2016
posted by clavdivs at 1:41 PM on August 27, 2016
Coincidentally, I have just finished the author's book expanding on this topic.
Highly recommended. Good bathroom reading.
posted by BWA at 1:54 PM on August 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Highly recommended. Good bathroom reading.
posted by BWA at 1:54 PM on August 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
"Brother Lucius! What in Dis' name happened to your eyebrows?"
"I'm really not sure- it was dark last night, so I took a lamp with me to the latrine, but I thought I heard that octopus again, so, holding the lamp above me, I leaned over the hole to check, and then all I remember was a loud "whoomp" sound..."
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:56 PM on August 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
"I'm really not sure- it was dark last night, so I took a lamp with me to the latrine, but I thought I heard that octopus again, so, holding the lamp above me, I leaned over the hole to check, and then all I remember was a loud "whoomp" sound..."
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:56 PM on August 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
Something just occurred to me. How do we know that the sponge on a stick was for butts as opposed to the wiping up of spilled fluids? The Wikipedia article is of course not authoritative but I'd like to think that the Romans were just slightly less gross than I know they were.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:59 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 1:59 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm sure they swished it around in a bucket of water that was changed periodically.
posted by fatbird at 2:06 PM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by fatbird at 2:06 PM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
(Obligatory "What have the Romans ever done for us ?" comment)
posted by Webbster at 2:10 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Webbster at 2:10 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't even like to see the warm water they keep the ice cream scoop in. Can you even imagine
posted by Countess Elena at 2:10 PM on August 27, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 2:10 PM on August 27, 2016 [33 favorites]
How do we know...
Martial.
We know at least one other use it was put to:
"For example, there was lately in a training-school for wild-beast gladiators a German, who was making ready for the morning exhibition; he withdrew in order to relieve himself, – the only thing which he was allowed to do in secret and without the presence of a guard. While so engaged, he seized the stick of wood, tipped with a sponge, which was devoted to the vilest uses, and stuffed it, just as it was, down his throat; thus he blocked up his windpipe, and choked the breath from his body. That was truly to insult death!"
Seneca, Moral letters to Lucillius, 70, 20
Tough people, the Germans.
(First link also mentions the trough that obviates the need for a bucket, at least in the communal places.)
posted by BWA at 2:11 PM on August 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
Martial.
We know at least one other use it was put to:
"For example, there was lately in a training-school for wild-beast gladiators a German, who was making ready for the morning exhibition; he withdrew in order to relieve himself, – the only thing which he was allowed to do in secret and without the presence of a guard. While so engaged, he seized the stick of wood, tipped with a sponge, which was devoted to the vilest uses, and stuffed it, just as it was, down his throat; thus he blocked up his windpipe, and choked the breath from his body. That was truly to insult death!"
Seneca, Moral letters to Lucillius, 70, 20
Tough people, the Germans.
(First link also mentions the trough that obviates the need for a bucket, at least in the communal places.)
posted by BWA at 2:11 PM on August 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
Roman toilets were also probably the first to think "Christ what an asshole!"
posted by srboisvert at 2:16 PM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 2:16 PM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Roman toilets were also probably the first to think "Christ what an asshole!"
Well, before that, it was probably "Mithras, what an asshole."
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the octopus story didn't really involve a slave with a taste for nocturnal fish-paste sandwiches.
"Oh, yeah- it totally got into the wine, too. I'd be really careful if I were you- you don't want to mess with a drunk octopus. You just don't know what they're capable of...
jerk."
Either that, or it was an elaborate allegorical reference to malicious rumors spread by the merchant's enemies about several freedmen sneaking into his house at night to give his wife oral pleasure.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:28 PM on August 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Well, before that, it was probably "Mithras, what an asshole."
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the octopus story didn't really involve a slave with a taste for nocturnal fish-paste sandwiches.
"Oh, yeah- it totally got into the wine, too. I'd be really careful if I were you- you don't want to mess with a drunk octopus. You just don't know what they're capable of...
jerk."
Either that, or it was an elaborate allegorical reference to malicious rumors spread by the merchant's enemies about several freedmen sneaking into his house at night to give his wife oral pleasure.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:28 PM on August 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
well, if things had gone differently in church history, arius would have been the patron saint of toilet brushes
posted by pyramid termite at 2:59 PM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 2:59 PM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
'Neptune's beard! That goddamned octopus took all the petty cash again!'
I'm picturing a Roman Ron Burgundy delivering that line.
posted by ian1977 at 3:28 PM on August 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm picturing a Roman Ron Burgundy delivering that line.
posted by ian1977 at 3:28 PM on August 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
To add to the anxiety a Roman man* felt in public latrines, during the reigns of particularly paranoid emperors there might be spies (delatores or informers) who reported on people's behavior. Not sexual behavior, political comments or behavior that might be construed as slander against the regime.
You might not want to be seen taking a coin with the emperor's image into a latrine. Or to declaim the emperor's poetry out of context, as the poet Lucan did: "One would think it thundered beneath the earth!" after he had presumably consumed too large a plate of beans.
The line was from one of Nero's poems, and when a spy reported this to him, Nero was not amused. Later Lucan was ordered to commit suicide (though he was in Nero's bad books for other reasons, possibly conspiracy).
*I don't think that women (other than slave women or the lowest status free) would have used these.
posted by bad grammar at 3:33 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
You might not want to be seen taking a coin with the emperor's image into a latrine. Or to declaim the emperor's poetry out of context, as the poet Lucan did: "One would think it thundered beneath the earth!" after he had presumably consumed too large a plate of beans.
The line was from one of Nero's poems, and when a spy reported this to him, Nero was not amused. Later Lucan was ordered to commit suicide (though he was in Nero's bad books for other reasons, possibly conspiracy).
*I don't think that women (other than slave women or the lowest status free) would have used these.
posted by bad grammar at 3:33 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
When fart jokes kill. Poor Lucan.
posted by teponaztli at 3:38 PM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by teponaztli at 3:38 PM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think the Roman political anecdotes are far-fetched and add to the general theme of latrine anxiety (octopuses, vermin, and demons).
On a serious note, did it take the creation of the field of public health in the 19th century to promote the construction of modern sewers with connections to every house and drain traps? It seems to me that drain traps would be within the technical range of Roman engineers, who built aqueducts that employed quite sophisticated engineering.
I'm also interested in comments from the UK and Europe since you often have much older buildings than in the US, that had to be retrofitted. From my scattershot reading of British literature, "mod cons" were not to be taken for granted even the 1950s in England. Orwell in The Road to Wigan Pier describes British lower-income communities in the 1930s with primitive sanitation.
posted by bad grammar at 3:44 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
On a serious note, did it take the creation of the field of public health in the 19th century to promote the construction of modern sewers with connections to every house and drain traps? It seems to me that drain traps would be within the technical range of Roman engineers, who built aqueducts that employed quite sophisticated engineering.
I'm also interested in comments from the UK and Europe since you often have much older buildings than in the US, that had to be retrofitted. From my scattershot reading of British literature, "mod cons" were not to be taken for granted even the 1950s in England. Orwell in The Road to Wigan Pier describes British lower-income communities in the 1930s with primitive sanitation.
posted by bad grammar at 3:44 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Jupiter Optimus Maximus! That octopus is wearing my best toga!"
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:56 PM on August 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:56 PM on August 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
"Last night I shot an octopus in my toga..."
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:26 PM on August 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:26 PM on August 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
dinty_moore: "I'd go with the toilet flames as the nightmare fuel:
Even worse, these public latrines were notorious for terrifying customers when flames exploded from their seat openings. These were caused by gas explosions of hydrogen sulphide (H2S) and methane (CH4) that were rank as well as frightening."
I guess that it was quite a few more centuries before the vent stack was invented.
posted by octothorpe at 5:12 PM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Even worse, these public latrines were notorious for terrifying customers when flames exploded from their seat openings. These were caused by gas explosions of hydrogen sulphide (H2S) and methane (CH4) that were rank as well as frightening."
I guess that it was quite a few more centuries before the vent stack was invented.
posted by octothorpe at 5:12 PM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
"I don't know- ever since that octopus turned up, we've been moving more garum than ever into Hispania, and our books are finally balanced!"
*scene six months later: octopus is carried into the forum on a litter, and is greeted by other notable citizens*
"Salve, Gaius Didius Octopus."
"lurblurblublub"
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:13 PM on August 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
*scene six months later: octopus is carried into the forum on a litter, and is greeted by other notable citizens*
"Salve, Gaius Didius Octopus."
"lurblurblublub"
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:13 PM on August 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
Instead of toilet paper, they had a communal sponge on a stick.
The real question here is did they use it to wipe sitting down or standing?
posted by Hairy Lobster at 5:20 PM on August 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
The real question here is did they use it to wipe sitting down or standing?
posted by Hairy Lobster at 5:20 PM on August 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
No, it's whether they swished it in the water bucket before or after.
posted by fatbird at 5:26 PM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by fatbird at 5:26 PM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Instead of toilet paper, they had a communal sponge on a stick.
Hence the expression "To get the wrong end of the stick."
It's true.
posted by njohnson23 at 5:42 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hence the expression "To get the wrong end of the stick."
It's true.
posted by njohnson23 at 5:42 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
In other poop news:
Ancient bottom wipers yield evidence of diseases carried along the Silk Road : ‘Personal hygiene sticks’ excavated from a 2,000-year-old latrine pit have preserved evidence of the transmission route for infectious diseases
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:23 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ancient bottom wipers yield evidence of diseases carried along the Silk Road : ‘Personal hygiene sticks’ excavated from a 2,000-year-old latrine pit have preserved evidence of the transmission route for infectious diseases
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:23 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
[Obligatory "but apart from the communal sponge on a stick, what have the Romans ever done for us?" comment.]
posted by uosuaq at 9:06 PM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by uosuaq at 9:06 PM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Was it an octopus who ate all the garum or was it a Presger Translator?
posted by tobascodagama at 9:12 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 9:12 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Imagine the quantity of human excrement, undergoing slowly the lowest and most offensive form of putrefactive fermentation, and escaping from the sinks of 26,500 habitations, partly by overflow into yards, gutters, and under the houses; partly by evaporation into the atmosphere, but chiefly by soakage into the earth, and from every direction poisoning the air.
posted by Confess, Fletch at 9:38 PM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Confess, Fletch at 9:38 PM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
“We have at least one dramatic ancient story that illustrates the danger of hooking your house up to a public sewer in the first or second century AD. The author Aelian tells us about a wealthy Iberian merchant in the city of Puteoli; every night a giant octopus swam into the sewer from the sea and proceeded up through the house drain in the toilet to eat all the pickled fish stored in his well-stocked pantry.”
Talk about nightmare fuel.
Have you tried pickled fish?
posted by iffthen at 1:28 AM on August 28, 2016
Talk about nightmare fuel.
Have you tried pickled fish?
posted by iffthen at 1:28 AM on August 28, 2016
"mod cons" were not to be taken for granted even the 1950s in England
You mean in any country in 1950, outside the cities. Neither of my parent had indoor toilets growing up on farms in Maine and Brazil, respectively. And check out suburban Australia in 1950.
Yup, we went from pooping outdoor to arguing on the internet in one generation. Pretty neat.
posted by ryanrs at 4:09 AM on August 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
You mean in any country in 1950, outside the cities. Neither of my parent had indoor toilets growing up on farms in Maine and Brazil, respectively. And check out suburban Australia in 1950.
Yup, we went from pooping outdoor to arguing on the internet in one generation. Pretty neat.
posted by ryanrs at 4:09 AM on August 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
technically, communal hygiene sticks.
The Romans apparently used communal sticks-with-sponges, which is historically somewhat unusual to my knowledge. Common even today in places without indoor plumbing is using your own stick or rock (or shell, leaves, etc) for wiping, which you toss in the latrine after so that thousands of years later an archeologist might excavate it. It sounds scratchy to me, but when your options are limited, you make do.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:09 AM on August 28, 2016
The Romans apparently used communal sticks-with-sponges, which is historically somewhat unusual to my knowledge. Common even today in places without indoor plumbing is using your own stick or rock (or shell, leaves, etc) for wiping, which you toss in the latrine after so that thousands of years later an archeologist might excavate it. It sounds scratchy to me, but when your options are limited, you make do.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:09 AM on August 28, 2016
see also: the Sears Roebuck catalog, corncobs, liquor bottles
(the bottles are probably not used for wiping, but archeologists find them in latrines none the less)
posted by ryanrs at 5:57 AM on August 28, 2016
(the bottles are probably not used for wiping, but archeologists find them in latrines none the less)
posted by ryanrs at 5:57 AM on August 28, 2016
(the bottles are probably not used for wiping, but archeologists find them in latrines none the less)
This is still the case. In places with no garbage service and/or limited privacy, anything embarrassing obviously goes into the latrine. Liquor bottles, birth control packaging, you name it. Upgrading to flush toilets without simultaneously improving garbage service can lead to problems because people still need to get rid of personal items, but sewer systems are very sensitive to anything other than toilet paper going into them.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:28 AM on August 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is still the case. In places with no garbage service and/or limited privacy, anything embarrassing obviously goes into the latrine. Liquor bottles, birth control packaging, you name it. Upgrading to flush toilets without simultaneously improving garbage service can lead to problems because people still need to get rid of personal items, but sewer systems are very sensitive to anything other than toilet paper going into them.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:28 AM on August 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have a theory that the Toilet Auger is named after a Roman eliminatory divination official
posted by thelonius at 10:04 AM on August 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 10:04 AM on August 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Either these auspices are very bad, or you need to start adding more fiber to your diet."
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:50 AM on August 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:50 AM on August 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Unrelated to Roman sanitation infrastructure, but I have a lot of experience with experimental butt-wiping options after frequently forgetting to buy toilet paper (or wad up a bunch in a gas station bathroom) before going on back-country hitches in different environmental Americorps programs. My favorites, in ascending order:
3. Moss -- a solid choice, widely available in central Alaska where I did a summer. It's easy to tear off trees in squares, and feels great, mostly, but can contain lichen (abrasive) and the other side, which you have against your hand, tends to have a bunch of dirt.
2. Snow -- seasonal. Soft enough to be bearable, textured enough to get shit off. You want icy, old snow, not powdery snow, or else some flakes off into your underwear. Bracing, but wakes you up in a way that's surprisingly pleasant.
1. Sagebrush blossoms -- everywhere in Utah when I was there in the summer and fall. Super soft, smells great, and just the right size and shape. 10/10.
Runners up include smooth river rocks (never as smooth as you think, kind of awkward to use) fir needles (comes apart everywhere, pokey) and tree bark (terrible).
posted by Rinku at 11:15 AM on August 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
3. Moss -- a solid choice, widely available in central Alaska where I did a summer. It's easy to tear off trees in squares, and feels great, mostly, but can contain lichen (abrasive) and the other side, which you have against your hand, tends to have a bunch of dirt.
2. Snow -- seasonal. Soft enough to be bearable, textured enough to get shit off. You want icy, old snow, not powdery snow, or else some flakes off into your underwear. Bracing, but wakes you up in a way that's surprisingly pleasant.
1. Sagebrush blossoms -- everywhere in Utah when I was there in the summer and fall. Super soft, smells great, and just the right size and shape. 10/10.
Runners up include smooth river rocks (never as smooth as you think, kind of awkward to use) fir needles (comes apart everywhere, pokey) and tree bark (terrible).
posted by Rinku at 11:15 AM on August 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Bracing, but wakes you up in a way that's surprisingly pleasant.
tossing ice cubes into your buttcrack is also a great way to stay cool in the summer
posted by thelonius at 11:37 AM on August 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
tossing ice cubes into your buttcrack is also a great way to stay cool in the summer
posted by thelonius at 11:37 AM on August 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
My hair spontaneously went white all over at the phrase 'communal sponge'. Does not compute. Once you've used that sponge, it's your sponge as far as I'm concerned. I'm never going to get on your case about hogging the sponge. I'll get my own sponge thanks. It will be my sponge. Mine. If you really want it after I'm done with it that's fine just don't expect me to shake your hand or look you in the eye ever again.
posted by um at 6:08 PM on August 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by um at 6:08 PM on August 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
before going on back-country hitches in different environmental Americorps programs
There were no geese available?
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:07 PM on August 28, 2016
There were no geese available?
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:07 PM on August 28, 2016
Every year they leave a stack of phonebooks outside my house. I don't know why, if I want to know a phone number I just ask the phone. But I like to keep one in the bathroom vanity. Just in case.
posted by adept256 at 6:04 AM on August 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by adept256 at 6:04 AM on August 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
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posted by Fizz at 1:15 PM on August 27, 2016