♫ We're drinking male tears/we're bathing in their fears ♫

September 4, 2016 10:32 AM

The Misandry Hour is a monthly feminist podcast hosted by Australian writer Clementine Ford (@clementine_ford).
posted by Gymnopedist (27 comments total)

Mod note: Folks, please attempt to engage with the content, not the title. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 12:04 PM on September 4, 2016 [10 favorites]

It is not feminism or feminists who depict all men as rapists. We are the only ones who seem to believe fiercely in the capacity of men to be better than that, which is why we protest so heavily in their favour. Rape culture – the kind that positions girls and women as the objects of men, to be used and abused according to how these men are instructed to see them – is formed and enforced by the very people who deny its existence.

I really liked this part of the first article in the second link. As someone who was told "boys will be boys, but little ladies don't do that sort of thing" after having been the victim of violence but getting in trouble for fighting back, I think it's incredibly important to think about what kinds of attitudes we choose to normalize around the next generation.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:27 PM on September 4, 2016 [19 favorites]

Men are socialized to not show emotion, including tears. The far-reaching consequences of this include mental health issues, lack of adequate social ties, and hyper masculine male violence.

Mocking male tears is problematic regardless of how good it feels to make fun of the idiotic claims that misandry is a thing.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 12:58 PM on September 4, 2016 [12 favorites]

I... well, "enjoyed" isn't the word, because the linked episode is about rape, but the format -- three 15-20 minute discussions with different guests on the topic was effective and addressed the issue from a variety of angles.

I found the observation by the second guest that we are comfortable talking about women being raped but uncomfortable talking about rapists, leaving public conversations weirdly lacking subjects (while simultaneously condemning women to a status as objects) particularly illuminating in light of the recent FPPs about poor statements about sexual assaults on campuses that focus on drinking rather than rape -- if the sentence doesn't have a subject (or an acceptable subject) we provide one, so we don't condemn the rapists (much less our rape-supporting culture), we blame alcohol, as if it magically changes upstanding students into alien monsters and victims.

Well worth a listen.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:03 PM on September 4, 2016 [16 favorites]

Should've clarified, I listen to this podcast regularly, it is uniformly great and is a welcome return after too long of a hiatus. I only pointed out the title because it's the internet and pointing out obviously problematic things is what we do right? There is no reason why this great podcast has to be brought to this website with that title.

However, If my comments are distracting from the sexual assault conversation, feel free to ignore/flag/delete it.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 1:30 PM on September 4, 2016

I don't know, I like the title. It's metaphorical and specifically addresses the whiny, manbaby response to feminism. But I'm a white man standing on a mountain of privilege so high, almost nothing of this sort can hurt me. Which is kinda the point.

I haven't listened to the podcast, but I find nothing in Ford's writing to disagree with or be butthurt about. This is necessary.
posted by klanawa at 1:50 PM on September 4, 2016 [11 favorites]

Thanks for posting this. I just finished listening to the rape culture episode, and it was really insightful all around.
posted by mixedmetaphors at 2:10 PM on September 4, 2016

I don't know, I like the title. It's metaphorical and specifically addresses the whiny, manbaby response to feminism.

It only does that if you're already of the mind that that's what it's doing.

I know this "kill all men" stuff is funny to some people, but I've already had multiple arguments with acquaintances who aren't generally horrifying bigots but who hold up this kind of thing as evidence that hey, maybe these red pill guys are on to something. It does far more harm than good (especially considering that even if you're in on the joke, it isn't actually very funny).
posted by IAmUnaware at 2:19 PM on September 4, 2016 [14 favorites]

I admit that the title led me to have low expectations, but I was very pleasantly surprised by her writing. In her article about rape culture she is very explicit in using gendered language: rape culture is intertwined with toxic masculinity and so you can't (and shouldn't) talk about rape culture in a gender neutral way. However, her article on consent is much more circumspect about gender, because the definition of consent is something that is symmetric: someone who "relents under coercion" has not consented to sex, even if that person is male, and gender isn't directly relevant. It's not as common for women to rape men, but it happens, and it's not okay to sweep that kind of thing under the carpet just because it's the exception rather than the rule. I really appreciate it when people remember that rape apologia is still gross when the rapist is female, and rape survivors are still worthy of sympathy when we don't identify as women. So for my part, the care with which she wrote the consent article is very much appreciated.
posted by langtonsant at 2:26 PM on September 4, 2016 [11 favorites]

IME the 'male tears' is not about men actually crying - it's about men suddenly giving a shit about being offended because you hurt their feelings, while they are still standing on your foot and pissing in your weetbix.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:01 PM on September 4, 2016 [39 favorites]

The title was probably kind of ill-advised if we're not supposed to talk about the title. That said, the idea that the "male tears" discourse drives men to MRA is bullshit. I know not to take the misandry talk seriously, so why is it hard for the Scott Adamses of the world? It isn't. They're hearing what they want to hear. You can make this stuff as nicey-nice and welcoming to men as you want, and those guys will still be MRAs.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:22 PM on September 4, 2016 [20 favorites]

Clementine Ford is a national treasure. Misandry hour is just one of many ways she puts herself on the line to expose some really bad behaviour. (Linked article mentions her involvement. Her facebook page has much more detail if you feel like wading into some [triggering and NSFW] muck.)
posted by prettypretty at 3:41 PM on September 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

kittens for breakfast: " I know not to take the misandry talk seriously, so why is it hard for the Scott Adamses of the world? It isn't. They're hearing what they want to hear. You can make this stuff as nicey-nice and welcoming to men as you want, and those guys will still be MRAs."

This is totally true, and the MRAs of the world can fuck right off. But that's not the reason why "misandry" jokes are a bad idea in discussions that touch on sexual assault. They're a bad idea because male rape survivors are a group that exists, and they're a group of men who are disproportionately likely to be reading these comments, and "we're bathing in your fears" is a terrible thing to say to someone who has been assaulted. It's not a #notallmen thing it's a #yesallrapesurvivors thing.
posted by langtonsant at 3:54 PM on September 4, 2016 [22 favorites]

who aren't generally horrifying bigots but who hold up this kind of thing as evidence that hey, maybe these red pill guys are on to something

I'm not going to be held accountable for their intellectual failures.
posted by klanawa at 4:04 PM on September 4, 2016 [13 favorites]

Thanks for the recommendation on the consent article, langstonsant. I tend to avoid most articles and discussions here on sexual violence and consent, I may take a look at this one. I'm a gay man whose 2 sexual experiences with women weren't really voluntary (they weren't rape either, the first time my consent was coerced without violence, the second time I relented to constant approaches to avoid it reaching the type of situation I had with the first woman). It's a real testament to the polarized, gendered nature of all discussion around sexual violence, that it took me 30 years to realize that I was a victim (and not just a man who was failing at being a true progressive by expressing all human's inate bisexuality).

So much of the discussion of sexual violence is about the battle between all right thinking people on one side, and the rapey monstrous garbage people men on the other. There's not much talk that helps me sort out how to think about the two women, who in their zeal to fight for sexual freedom, forgot that consent applies to everyone.
posted by conic at 4:13 PM on September 4, 2016 [15 favorites]

conic: "There's not much talk that helps me sort out how to think about the two women, who in their zeal to fight for sexual freedom, forgot that consent applies to everyone."

Yeah. I think I'm going to nope out of this thread now for self-care reasons because this cuts uncomfortably close to the bone for me - but fwiw, yeah it took me 20 years to admit what happened to me wasn't okay, that no rapist deserves a pass regardless of gender, and it wasn't okay for my overzealous friends to mock my feelings of violation because of my (then) gender identity. It's a hard place to be in when the people who you expected to be allies were the ones giving you grief. Take care of yourself.
posted by langtonsant at 4:27 PM on September 4, 2016 [14 favorites]

Thanks, I didn't know this existed. I'll put it on my list. I haven't followed Clementine's work closely, but the amount of shit she gets for being feminist on the internet is breathtaking, and yet she keeps plugging away at it.
posted by kjs4 at 5:05 PM on September 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

[Folks, please attempt to engage with the content, not the title. Thanks. ]

Why is it there then?

As a cis guy who's been weeping a lot lately (for good reasons, although they shouldn't be needed) I noped out of this fast.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 5:20 PM on September 4, 2016 [12 favorites]

I don't always agree with Ford, or her approach, but I think she does a hero's work fighting the default misogyny of the Internet. The harrassment she's endured, the bile, it's jaw dropping. A terrible education in what a lot of men are thinking, even if they're not saying it,and the fact that statistically I'm working with some of them.

She's insightful and interesting. I also think, given her focus of feminism and femaleness in a very default male dominated space (online and online news), it would be awesome if we could avoid being part of the problem and not shift the focus in here to men, mens feelings, their feelings about her etc. A lot of what she has to say is derailed by this as it stands,unfortunately .
posted by smoke at 6:01 PM on September 4, 2016 [27 favorites]

Poe's law is a thing for a reason.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:08 PM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Smoke you put what I was thinking so much more eloquently than I could possibly muster, thank you.
posted by prettypretty at 6:23 PM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

(As one of the people contributing to the title related derail - I totally support this idea of dropping that subject and focusing instead on how great Clementine Ford is. And I'm shutting up now)
posted by langtonsant at 7:11 PM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

(What langtonsant said. Sorry!)
posted by conic at 7:12 PM on September 4, 2016

As an aside, the link from "Clementine Ford" takes you to "Daily Life", which is a sub-brand from one of Australia's major newspaper businesses, very obviously aimed at a female audience. It gets slotted into the online versions of the Sydney Morning Herald and the (Melbourne) Age.

Because you've obviously got all bases covered then: news, politics, international affairs, economics, sports and...daily life.

Back in 2013, they had the disastrous idea of renaming it to "Women's Perspective", and none other than Clementine Ford can be seen with her perspective on that, here.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:51 PM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Back in 2013, they had the disastrous idea of renaming it to "Women's Perspective", and none other than Clementine Ford can be seen with her perspective on that, here.

And of course the men's section is (still) called "Executive Style". Go figure.
posted by prettypretty at 9:18 PM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mod note: Coming in a bit later on this, but a quick note, because I see some folks have been distressed about the title: it's from the intro song for the podcast series, a jokey thing explained in the premier podcast in the first link (scroll all the way down), which is a more serious look at the issue of feminists being called misandrists and man-haters, in what ways this misandry is expressed, and whether misandry/misogyny are actually equivalent (from what I've listened to so far). Podcasts without transcripts can be tough for group discussion because they require some extended commitment of time, I understand, but it would be good to try if there is interest in the content. Also understandable if there is no such interest, but then it's probably better to skip the thread. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:12 AM on September 5, 2016 [12 favorites]

I've been listening to back episodes, and, as an American, it's very interesting to see how these issues play out in a country that is similar but also very different to the one in which I live. It's really easy to imagine that something as universal as women's rights is one thing, and the show serves as an antidote. Ford also makes efforts to include WoC, and she seems to be casting her net as wide as possible.

She also pays her guests, which is refreshing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:40 AM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]