I hate to brag, but...
January 8, 2017 4:50 AM Subscribe
Dutch babies were found to be more contented – laughing, smiling and cuddling more – than American babies. Dutch babies were also easier to soothe, while American babies displayed more fear, sadness and frustration.They raise the world's happiest children - so is it time you went Dutch?
American babies displayed more fear, sadness and frustration.
I, for one, don't trust any child who doesn't display fear, sadness, and frustration.
posted by escabeche at 5:18 AM on January 8, 2017 [18 favorites]
I, for one, don't trust any child who doesn't display fear, sadness, and frustration.
posted by escabeche at 5:18 AM on January 8, 2017 [18 favorites]
Nicholas Cage in Raising Amsterdam?
posted by Nanukthedog at 5:24 AM on January 8, 2017
posted by Nanukthedog at 5:24 AM on January 8, 2017
I, for one, don't trust any child who doesn't display fear, sadness, and frustration.
The article is written by two non-Dutch self-marketers who spend plenty of article space describing themselves as perfect parents with more than perfect kids, so odds are that less perfect Dutch kids do display those feelings from time to time. I'm willing to entertain the idea that chocolate sprinkles for breakfast does something to your brain, though.
posted by effbot at 5:27 AM on January 8, 2017 [16 favorites]
The article is written by two non-Dutch self-marketers who spend plenty of article space describing themselves as perfect parents with more than perfect kids, so odds are that less perfect Dutch kids do display those feelings from time to time. I'm willing to entertain the idea that chocolate sprinkles for breakfast does something to your brain, though.
posted by effbot at 5:27 AM on January 8, 2017 [16 favorites]
Best part of this article is how the article is from a UK mom and US mom raising their kids in Amsterdam and that how by being married to Dutch men and living their they are four steps ahead of the other US and UK moms and winning the competition that they aren't participating in...
Boy, I bet they are shitty moms based on Dutch standards.
posted by Nanukthedog at 5:29 AM on January 8, 2017 [59 favorites]
Boy, I bet they are shitty moms based on Dutch standards.
posted by Nanukthedog at 5:29 AM on January 8, 2017 [59 favorites]
For reasons best known to itself, the Daily Torygraph piece doesn't link to the 2013 Unicef report.
That, of course, is much more interesting and has all sorts of data on children's material well-being, health and safety, education, behaviours and risks, and housing and environment.
Fun fact: If you want your kid(s) to avoid being bullied... stay away from Lithuania.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:54 AM on January 8, 2017 [28 favorites]
That, of course, is much more interesting and has all sorts of data on children's material well-being, health and safety, education, behaviours and risks, and housing and environment.
Fun fact: If you want your kid(s) to avoid being bullied... stay away from Lithuania.
[Key Findings] The Netherlands retains its position as the clear leader and is the only country ranked among the top five countries in all dimensions of child well-being.Direct link to Unicef 2013 report (pdf)
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The bottom four places in the table are occupied by three of the poorest countries in the survey, Latvia, Lithuania and Romania, and by one of the richest, the United States.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:54 AM on January 8, 2017 [28 favorites]
I know from personal experience that the secret is those chocolate sprinkles on your slices of bread for breakfast. Every day.
posted by beagle at 5:58 AM on January 8, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by beagle at 5:58 AM on January 8, 2017 [4 favorites]
Yeah, the lack of links to the real study makes this a Sunday fluff piece.
posted by kadmilos at 6:23 AM on January 8, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by kadmilos at 6:23 AM on January 8, 2017 [3 favorites]
I love how a well-funded public education system, parental leave, socialized health care and strong social supports, plus well-maintained public spaces (and low crime rates although I don't mean stranger danger so much as no crack vials lying around) becomes "second-hand toys, breakfast as a family and playing outdoors."
posted by warriorqueen at 6:40 AM on January 8, 2017 [134 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 6:40 AM on January 8, 2017 [134 favorites]
Clearly they're giving them more hygges.
posted by Mchelly at 6:41 AM on January 8, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 6:41 AM on January 8, 2017 [5 favorites]
There's none of that “mompetition” or mummy guilt you see in the UK and the US.
As a Dutch mom, I can tell you that this is not true. This is a thing that I often talked about with my own mother, how that changed between our generations. That as a mother now you get critized for everything you do or don't do or your child does. I'm usually not someone who looks back at the past with any kind of nostalgia because when my mother was young she was forced to stop working when she married and life was all around way more awful back then for women, but this is the exact thing that I notice as a big difference. I do think there are quite a few things here that are better than in the US, this is not one of them, and there are also things that the US does better than we do.
The biggest two differences that I see are that many children (though not all) here are still free to play outside, by themselves, from a rather young age, and that there is less stranger danger. Those are big deals and I really love them. But it's still perhaps important to note that not all Dutch children get to experience this. Living in a nice enough neighbourhood that makes that possible is probably more common here than elsewhere, but it's not universal and still a privilege.
Be wary of those reports about average children, because a lot of children are not average. The Netherlands does not have a right for children to go to school, for example. Schools can expel children, and then have a duty to help find another school, but if that doesn't work out, tough luck. There's also the issue that mental health care has been left to individual municipalities recently, and some counties were out of money half way through the year already, and mental health workers had to stop treating children, unless there was a clear risk to their lives. That's months of no mental health care at all. Not just for children who could use some therapy because of awful events in their lives, but also for children who have severe mental illness.
As for education: unlike what the article says, not all children like to go to school here, that's just a ridiculously positive picture. It's not strange for children not to like school at all. And it's true, elementary schools tend to not have much homework (though that differs per school, but it's way better than what I'm reading from American parents). Still, the counter side to that is that there's not much schooling going on at all in elementary schools. A common thought by teachers is that children are either smart or not, and there's not much they can do about that. This would not be that bad, except for the fact that standardized tests at age 9, 10 and 11 are used to determine to which middle school you go. There are 3 main levels of middle schools, and only the higher levels give access to college/university. About 50% of all children go to the lowest level. So, if you're bored at school at age 10, it's really hard to even get to college at age 18. It's not impossible, as I'm sure defenders of the system or people who are old now and don't know that it's harder now than it used to be will counter-argue, but it's really difficult. It will also probably not surprise you that there is racial bias in who goes to what school and that non-white children often are sent to the lower level schools.
I know I just wrote a very long comment about things that aren't great, but I do think that this is a nice country to live for many children. The playing outside by yourself thing really is wonderful, and a lot of children here do have that option. But it's not as idyllic here as this piece makes it sound. And I have barely even mentioned racism yet :(
posted by blub at 6:44 AM on January 8, 2017 [154 favorites]
As a Dutch mom, I can tell you that this is not true. This is a thing that I often talked about with my own mother, how that changed between our generations. That as a mother now you get critized for everything you do or don't do or your child does. I'm usually not someone who looks back at the past with any kind of nostalgia because when my mother was young she was forced to stop working when she married and life was all around way more awful back then for women, but this is the exact thing that I notice as a big difference. I do think there are quite a few things here that are better than in the US, this is not one of them, and there are also things that the US does better than we do.
The biggest two differences that I see are that many children (though not all) here are still free to play outside, by themselves, from a rather young age, and that there is less stranger danger. Those are big deals and I really love them. But it's still perhaps important to note that not all Dutch children get to experience this. Living in a nice enough neighbourhood that makes that possible is probably more common here than elsewhere, but it's not universal and still a privilege.
Be wary of those reports about average children, because a lot of children are not average. The Netherlands does not have a right for children to go to school, for example. Schools can expel children, and then have a duty to help find another school, but if that doesn't work out, tough luck. There's also the issue that mental health care has been left to individual municipalities recently, and some counties were out of money half way through the year already, and mental health workers had to stop treating children, unless there was a clear risk to their lives. That's months of no mental health care at all. Not just for children who could use some therapy because of awful events in their lives, but also for children who have severe mental illness.
As for education: unlike what the article says, not all children like to go to school here, that's just a ridiculously positive picture. It's not strange for children not to like school at all. And it's true, elementary schools tend to not have much homework (though that differs per school, but it's way better than what I'm reading from American parents). Still, the counter side to that is that there's not much schooling going on at all in elementary schools. A common thought by teachers is that children are either smart or not, and there's not much they can do about that. This would not be that bad, except for the fact that standardized tests at age 9, 10 and 11 are used to determine to which middle school you go. There are 3 main levels of middle schools, and only the higher levels give access to college/university. About 50% of all children go to the lowest level. So, if you're bored at school at age 10, it's really hard to even get to college at age 18. It's not impossible, as I'm sure defenders of the system or people who are old now and don't know that it's harder now than it used to be will counter-argue, but it's really difficult. It will also probably not surprise you that there is racial bias in who goes to what school and that non-white children often are sent to the lower level schools.
I know I just wrote a very long comment about things that aren't great, but I do think that this is a nice country to live for many children. The playing outside by yourself thing really is wonderful, and a lot of children here do have that option. But it's not as idyllic here as this piece makes it sound. And I have barely even mentioned racism yet :(
posted by blub at 6:44 AM on January 8, 2017 [154 favorites]
This seems to be a time-honored money-making strategy for publishers: Americans (and apparently Britons, as well) love to angst about their parenting and are consumed by anxieties about national decline. Why not combine the two? You can go with either "you're fucking up your kid because you're inferior to people from other countries" or "you're contributing to national decline by being a bad parent." Either one will sell! Either way, the goal is to focus on the individual decisions that individual shitty parents are making to fuck up their kids, as if this is a matter of choices and virtue, rather than thinking about the social contexts which guide parents' choices about child-raising. This book will go on the same shelf as the Tiger Mom book and the book about how French children are smarter, happier and better-behaved than your brats, and I bet both of those books sold well.
Having said that, I have a good friend who has adult siblings in the Netherlands, and she frequently talks about how she thinks Dutch child-raising norms are healthier than American ones. But a lot of that has to do with things like getting a lot of time off from work, so you can spend time with your children. It's about a social context that supports healthy parenting, rather than about individual virtue.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:46 AM on January 8, 2017 [32 favorites]
Having said that, I have a good friend who has adult siblings in the Netherlands, and she frequently talks about how she thinks Dutch child-raising norms are healthier than American ones. But a lot of that has to do with things like getting a lot of time off from work, so you can spend time with your children. It's about a social context that supports healthy parenting, rather than about individual virtue.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:46 AM on January 8, 2017 [32 favorites]
But without instilling fear, sadness, and frustration early, how do the Dutch prepare their citizens for life in a globe spanning theocratic military empire with no social safety net and constant, vicious competition at all levels of society? Seems like poor planning. You don't get to be number one by coddling the kids. Just ask the Brits!
posted by Lighthammer at 7:11 AM on January 8, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Lighthammer at 7:11 AM on January 8, 2017 [9 favorites]
IMO, they get one thing right: The Netherlands are in many ways an extremely conservative society. From my Danish point of view, too conservative, specially when it comes to respect for women and women's rights. That is also what is hidden in that number of part-time workers: many mothers don't work or work part-time because they are expected to take full responsibility for the home. That's in the article as well - the husbands "help" doing housework. Well, whenever someone suggests men should "help" more or less I get out my excel chart. How can it be help, if there are two people who are equally responsible and equal contributors to the household.. grumble grumble.
All of that said, I think there is more to learn from the Netherlands than from France (or China) when it comes to child rearing, and my wonderful, feminist Dutch friends really have done a great job at supporting their happy and confident kids.
The biggest culture shock I experienced when moving to the States, 20 years ago, was searching for a play school for my three-year-old. I went to meeting after meeting with ambitious parents who'd read up on everything and posed challenging questions to the staff at various playschools. The one I eventually chose was the only one where the head of school asked me what I thought. I said I wondered how much the kids were out every day - because this is the most important parameter here in Denmark when we choose pre-school childcare. The other parents were visibly shocked. The head took time to explain to me why the kids were only outdoors for 30 mins a day, and though I didn't really get it, I felt welcomed and heard. And 30 minutes were more than the other places could offer at the time.
I wasn't the only Dane experiencing culture shock back in the 90's
posted by mumimor at 7:24 AM on January 8, 2017 [20 favorites]
All of that said, I think there is more to learn from the Netherlands than from France (or China) when it comes to child rearing, and my wonderful, feminist Dutch friends really have done a great job at supporting their happy and confident kids.
The biggest culture shock I experienced when moving to the States, 20 years ago, was searching for a play school for my three-year-old. I went to meeting after meeting with ambitious parents who'd read up on everything and posed challenging questions to the staff at various playschools. The one I eventually chose was the only one where the head of school asked me what I thought. I said I wondered how much the kids were out every day - because this is the most important parameter here in Denmark when we choose pre-school childcare. The other parents were visibly shocked. The head took time to explain to me why the kids were only outdoors for 30 mins a day, and though I didn't really get it, I felt welcomed and heard. And 30 minutes were more than the other places could offer at the time.
I wasn't the only Dane experiencing culture shock back in the 90's
posted by mumimor at 7:24 AM on January 8, 2017 [20 favorites]
The UNICEF study is interesting, but this article reads like good old "American and UK mompetition" combined with some pretty serious statistical illiteracy. I'd like to see a UNICEF study on child well-being in poor countries (but not the inevitable smug article from an expat living in those countries who thinks that if we move there we'll be better parents).
posted by k8bot at 7:44 AM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by k8bot at 7:44 AM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
I wish these articles would include "here are some things that are proven to be factors that you can incorporate into daily life without shifting your entire culture or moving to Scandinavia."
posted by corb at 7:47 AM on January 8, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by corb at 7:47 AM on January 8, 2017 [20 favorites]
We can - and should - be working to get those conditions put in place in our own countries
Yes! Most people don't even know that the way of doing things in their area is different to other areas. It's just 'the way it is', hence articles like this which competitively stress the differences in local approaches. Big thanks to ArbitraryAndCapricious for giving an overview of what's going on there.
posted by The River Ivel at 7:57 AM on January 8, 2017
Yes! Most people don't even know that the way of doing things in their area is different to other areas. It's just 'the way it is', hence articles like this which competitively stress the differences in local approaches. Big thanks to ArbitraryAndCapricious for giving an overview of what's going on there.
posted by The River Ivel at 7:57 AM on January 8, 2017
Must be all that weed.
posted by jonmc at 7:59 AM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 7:59 AM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
Social justice in a nutshell, folks: "Social context that supports healthy humaning, rather than making it about individual virtue."
Thanks, arbitrary and capricious, I have my new elevator speech!
original wording so you don't have to scroll: Having said that, I have a good friend who has adult siblings in the Netherlands, and she frequently talks about how she thinks Dutch child-raising norms are healthier than American ones. But a lot of that has to do with things like getting a lot of time off from work, so you can spend time with your children. It's about a social context that supports healthy parenting, rather than about individual virtue.
posted by crush-onastick at 8:00 AM on January 8, 2017 [6 favorites]
Thanks, arbitrary and capricious, I have my new elevator speech!
original wording so you don't have to scroll: Having said that, I have a good friend who has adult siblings in the Netherlands, and she frequently talks about how she thinks Dutch child-raising norms are healthier than American ones. But a lot of that has to do with things like getting a lot of time off from work, so you can spend time with your children. It's about a social context that supports healthy parenting, rather than about individual virtue.
posted by crush-onastick at 8:00 AM on January 8, 2017 [6 favorites]
I wish these articles would include "here are some things that are proven to be factors that you can incorporate into daily life without shifting your entire culture or moving to Scandinavia."The thing is, I'm not sure that you can. For instance, the article mentions that many Dutch kids have a sit-down breakfast with their parents every morning. It is possible that you could have breakfast with your kids every morning, but doing so would add stress to your life. It would be another responsibility, another drain on your already-stretched resources of time and attention, another source of anxiety and guilt. And your kid would pick up on that and understand that your desire to spend time with her was contributing to your stress. She would be stressed out by her understanding of herself as a burden on you. The point here isn't that Dutch people raise happier children because they break their backs and make themselves miserable in an attempt to eat breakfast with their kids. It's that they have a society that is set up to allow parents to have a lot of laid-back, casual, unscheduled time with their kids. Our society is not set up that way, and I don't think that most people can copy many of the healthy things about Dutch child-raising without changing our society or leaving it.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:02 AM on January 8, 2017 [14 favorites]
Dutch parents, pressed for comment, exhaled thick clouds of cannabis smoke and said they had no idea what the cause of the relaxed babies could be.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:04 AM on January 8, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:04 AM on January 8, 2017 [10 favorites]
For reasons best known to itself, the Daily Torygraph piece doesn't link to the 2013 Unicef report.
The reason being that if you read the report, it would be immediately obvious that the welfare of a nation's children has shit to do with parenting style, and is instead entirely dominated by how many children in that nation are exposed to the depredations of poverty and crime, and what services exist to protect them from those forces. The major ones being whether children have access to adequate housing, regular meals, and are protected from violent crime inside and outside of the home. But sure, chocolate sprinkles sound great.
posted by teh_boy at 8:11 AM on January 8, 2017 [30 favorites]
The reason being that if you read the report, it would be immediately obvious that the welfare of a nation's children has shit to do with parenting style, and is instead entirely dominated by how many children in that nation are exposed to the depredations of poverty and crime, and what services exist to protect them from those forces. The major ones being whether children have access to adequate housing, regular meals, and are protected from violent crime inside and outside of the home. But sure, chocolate sprinkles sound great.
posted by teh_boy at 8:11 AM on January 8, 2017 [30 favorites]
If I had a a generous, defined benefit pension plan instead of a wobbly 401k that exists only at the goodwill of various corporate entities, heck, I'd be enjoying a relaxed breakfast this very morning with my nieces. [1] Maybe we'd be saving up for a trip to Amsterdam.
It's a lovely piece from the Telegraph, but man, it sure does have a tone of 'read it and weep, other NATO-block members.' Guess I'll cry into some bitterballen.
[1] Luxuries such as 'settling down' or 'family planning' were largely a 'ridiculous financial luxury' to my particular generational cohort and geographical location. 'Mobility' and 'Skills' were the dogma de jure.
posted by mrdaneri at 8:19 AM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's a lovely piece from the Telegraph, but man, it sure does have a tone of 'read it and weep, other NATO-block members.' Guess I'll cry into some bitterballen.
[1] Luxuries such as 'settling down' or 'family planning' were largely a 'ridiculous financial luxury' to my particular generational cohort and geographical location. 'Mobility' and 'Skills' were the dogma de jure.
posted by mrdaneri at 8:19 AM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
Rather than crime, death by car is the number one factor that keeps American (and Canadian) kids trapped indoors or in their yards (if they're fortunate enough to have them). Road design makes independent child walking (and biking!) safe and therefore parents are OK with their kids getting out more in the Netherlands.
posted by anthill at 8:19 AM on January 8, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by anthill at 8:19 AM on January 8, 2017 [12 favorites]
I wish these articles would include "here are some things that are proven to be factors that you can incorporate into daily life without shifting your entire culture or moving to Scandinavia."
I suppose step 1 would be learning where Scandinavia is.
posted by pompomtom at 8:24 AM on January 8, 2017 [19 favorites]
I suppose step 1 would be learning where Scandinavia is.
posted by pompomtom at 8:24 AM on January 8, 2017 [19 favorites]
ArbitraryAndCapricious, while I fundamentally agree with what you are saying, I still don't get while family meals are such a stressor in the US. The entire world seems to be able to manage home-cooked meals at mealtime, regardless of poverty and long working hours. This is not a polemical question. What are the structural/political/practical reasons it is difficult to eat two meals a day together in the US?
One thing I thought about was maybe Americans are very ambitious about meals, because they are so used to eating out/taking out? Those pieces of white bread with chocolate sprinkles are not exactly gourmet fare. Here in Denmark it is usual to eat oats with milk and sugar or yogurt with müsli. Sitting down ten minutes together over not at all ambitious food is not really hard. Or is it?
posted by mumimor at 8:34 AM on January 8, 2017 [4 favorites]
One thing I thought about was maybe Americans are very ambitious about meals, because they are so used to eating out/taking out? Those pieces of white bread with chocolate sprinkles are not exactly gourmet fare. Here in Denmark it is usual to eat oats with milk and sugar or yogurt with müsli. Sitting down ten minutes together over not at all ambitious food is not really hard. Or is it?
posted by mumimor at 8:34 AM on January 8, 2017 [4 favorites]
I wish these articles would include "here are some things that are proven to be factors that you can incorporate into daily life without shifting your entire culture or moving to Scandinavia."
Psst. The Netherlands are not in Scandinavia.
posted by dazed_one at 8:46 AM on January 8, 2017 [7 favorites]
Psst. The Netherlands are not in Scandinavia.
posted by dazed_one at 8:46 AM on January 8, 2017 [7 favorites]
mumimor I can answer this only from the perspective a man, and then only from the perspective of a dude who was partnered without children.
A typical workweek, during my mid-20's/early-30's, when one would presume that I and my partner were at our 'peak parenting years' started with me leaving at 4:00AM on Monday via Jet to parts unknown, and returning Friday at around 2 AM. My partner worked at the ~ Director level in Commercial Retail. Her job started ~ 9AM and finished most days around 7PM, but not infrequently as late as 10PM.
The times that we were both 'physically, emotionally, and mentally' 100% present for each other were rare. And yes, grabbing fifteen minutes together over a box of takeout noodles was often a huge 'accomplishment.' Our particular story, I don't think, was either unusual or uncommon for that particular place and time. Our combined incomes put us very squarely in what would be 'Middle-Class', perhaps towards the 'professional' tier of that band.
Adding children to the mix? Young children? We were at least self-aware enough then to know better.
posted by mrdaneri at 8:48 AM on January 8, 2017 [7 favorites]
A typical workweek, during my mid-20's/early-30's, when one would presume that I and my partner were at our 'peak parenting years' started with me leaving at 4:00AM on Monday via Jet to parts unknown, and returning Friday at around 2 AM. My partner worked at the ~ Director level in Commercial Retail. Her job started ~ 9AM and finished most days around 7PM, but not infrequently as late as 10PM.
The times that we were both 'physically, emotionally, and mentally' 100% present for each other were rare. And yes, grabbing fifteen minutes together over a box of takeout noodles was often a huge 'accomplishment.' Our particular story, I don't think, was either unusual or uncommon for that particular place and time. Our combined incomes put us very squarely in what would be 'Middle-Class', perhaps towards the 'professional' tier of that band.
Adding children to the mix? Young children? We were at least self-aware enough then to know better.
posted by mrdaneri at 8:48 AM on January 8, 2017 [7 favorites]
To give you an idea, the biggest problem facing a regular family meal time is that schedules are highly dependent on transportation. In addition, work and school do not run concurrent schedules.
So, if I work 8 to 5 with a two hour commute (which means 6 to 7 out of the house) my spouce works 9 to 6 with a one hour commute (so out of the house 8 to 7) and two kids (one who gets on the bus at 5 am because he's the first on the route) and the other is dropped off at daycare on mom's commute to work. Kids and adults often don't even wake up at the same time.
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:48 AM on January 8, 2017 [5 favorites]
So, if I work 8 to 5 with a two hour commute (which means 6 to 7 out of the house) my spouce works 9 to 6 with a one hour commute (so out of the house 8 to 7) and two kids (one who gets on the bus at 5 am because he's the first on the route) and the other is dropped off at daycare on mom's commute to work. Kids and adults often don't even wake up at the same time.
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:48 AM on January 8, 2017 [5 favorites]
One thing I thought about was maybe Americans are very ambitious about meals, because they are so used to eating out/taking out? Those pieces of white bread with chocolate sprinkles are not exactly gourmet fare. Here in Denmark it is usual to eat oats with milk and sugar or yogurt with müsli. Sitting down ten minutes together over not at all ambitious food is not really hard. Or is it?
This is definitely my theory about middle class American cooking/eating habits. Years ago I finally realized that it really was possible to cook a simple dinner in the time it takes to wait for takeout, and it's nicer because you're at home. But there's such a competition culture that home cooking equates to hour of prep and cooking to many.
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:51 AM on January 8, 2017 [5 favorites]
This is definitely my theory about middle class American cooking/eating habits. Years ago I finally realized that it really was possible to cook a simple dinner in the time it takes to wait for takeout, and it's nicer because you're at home. But there's such a competition culture that home cooking equates to hour of prep and cooking to many.
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:51 AM on January 8, 2017 [5 favorites]
...I should have previewed more carefully! If some families can't even be together at the same time I certainly realize eating simpler meals won't fix that.
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:55 AM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:55 AM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's sooooo flat there though...
posted by Windopaene at 8:59 AM on January 8, 2017
posted by Windopaene at 8:59 AM on January 8, 2017
Psst. The Netherlands are not in Scandinavia.
Sorry, I see a lot of these articles that are about Scandinavia and the person above me was talking about Denmark. The principle still holds, though.
posted by corb at 9:00 AM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sorry, I see a lot of these articles that are about Scandinavia and the person above me was talking about Denmark. The principle still holds, though.
posted by corb at 9:00 AM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
From what I recall from their Eurovision entries, there is a throat phlegm requirement for being Dutch that I doubt I could pass.
posted by delfin at 9:03 AM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by delfin at 9:03 AM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
Years ago I finally realized that it really was possible to cook a simple dinner in the time it takes to wait for takeout,
The key to this would be our urban design; Particularly in the Western United States, 'Urban-core, suburban-ring, freeway-loop-and-grid' superstructure.
Built-in to your trip home (which you are already making, if you commute) will be multiple quick-serve food destinations. I personally won't speak to that issue here, as it isn't relevant. But for someone trying to understand US-ian foodways, that is a critical detail.
posted by mrdaneri at 9:09 AM on January 8, 2017 [3 favorites]
The key to this would be our urban design; Particularly in the Western United States, 'Urban-core, suburban-ring, freeway-loop-and-grid' superstructure.
Built-in to your trip home (which you are already making, if you commute) will be multiple quick-serve food destinations. I personally won't speak to that issue here, as it isn't relevant. But for someone trying to understand US-ian foodways, that is a critical detail.
posted by mrdaneri at 9:09 AM on January 8, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think it's pretty rare for Americans to eat elaborate breakfasts on weekdays, so I don't think that's it. I think that most Americans genuinely are running around pretty frantically in the morning. In the Netherlands, women don't typically work full-time. About 76% of working women work less than 36 hours a week, and that's all women, not just mothers of young children. In the US, most mothers work, and most working mothers work full-time. Here's some fun data to play around with if you'd like. A little over 60% of mothers whose youngest child is under 3 work outside the home. Almost 75% of mothers whose youngest child is between 6 and 17 do. Of those, over 70% of working mothers whose youngest child is under 3 work full-time. Among working mothers whose youngest child is between the ages of 6 and 17, 78% work full-time.
So let's say that you're an American mother of a 6-year-old. If you're lucky, you get out of work at 5. If you're lucky, you can pick your kid up at daycare and get home by 6. Then you make dinner, supervise homework, eat dinner, clean up after dinner, supervise bathing and tooth-brushing, put the kid to bed, make lunches for tomorrow, make sure everyone has clean clothes. Deal with any bills that need to be paid or urgent household tasks. Don't forget to fit some exercise in there somewhere! And if you don't get that all done in the evening, you will need to do it the next morning, because you have to be out the door at 7:30 to get your kid to school by 8, and then you're not going to be back home until 6, at which point you need to repeat the make dinner, supervise homework, eat dinner, clean up after dinner, etc. routine. It's all well and good to say that people should have ten minutes in there to sit down and have a calm breakfast, but in reality people are struggling just to keep it all together and get out the door in one piece.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:33 AM on January 8, 2017 [19 favorites]
So let's say that you're an American mother of a 6-year-old. If you're lucky, you get out of work at 5. If you're lucky, you can pick your kid up at daycare and get home by 6. Then you make dinner, supervise homework, eat dinner, clean up after dinner, supervise bathing and tooth-brushing, put the kid to bed, make lunches for tomorrow, make sure everyone has clean clothes. Deal with any bills that need to be paid or urgent household tasks. Don't forget to fit some exercise in there somewhere! And if you don't get that all done in the evening, you will need to do it the next morning, because you have to be out the door at 7:30 to get your kid to school by 8, and then you're not going to be back home until 6, at which point you need to repeat the make dinner, supervise homework, eat dinner, clean up after dinner, etc. routine. It's all well and good to say that people should have ten minutes in there to sit down and have a calm breakfast, but in reality people are struggling just to keep it all together and get out the door in one piece.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:33 AM on January 8, 2017 [19 favorites]
But no one wears helmets.... oh noes it's the end of the world.
posted by humboldt32 at 9:34 AM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by humboldt32 at 9:34 AM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've raised my kids in the Netherlands since they were babies, and I generally agree with the gist of the article and most of its claims. I also read about the study when it was published a few years ago, and it didn't surprise me at all.
Compared to where I grew up (in Finland), the Dutch I know really spend a remarkable amount of time with their kids. Having short working days and weeks is a major systemic contributing factor. I think most parents of young children I know work only 4 days a week or less, and working overtime is a lot less common than where I'm from (not to even speak of my experiences in Southern Europe).
The authors do live in a bit of a bubble though, and I co-sign what blub says about not everybody everywhere in the Netherlands being as privileged. But yeah, generally the standard of living is quite high, and people tend to prioritize family life and free time. Of course, that's easier when you're living in a country with reliable social security, health care, educational system, etc.
Less tangible, but in my mind also an important factor is the generally non-hierarchical, progressive, secular and tolerant cultural atmosphere, which extends to the expectations people have for their kids. I must admit I've sometimes been jarred by how casually non-deferential even young Dutch kids can be towards grown-ups. (Then again, I've spent a good amount of time here on the blue complaining about how the way I was raised to be polite, accommodating and non-confrontational has kneecapped me in my life, so. Good riddance to all that.)
posted by sively at 9:52 AM on January 8, 2017 [8 favorites]
Compared to where I grew up (in Finland), the Dutch I know really spend a remarkable amount of time with their kids. Having short working days and weeks is a major systemic contributing factor. I think most parents of young children I know work only 4 days a week or less, and working overtime is a lot less common than where I'm from (not to even speak of my experiences in Southern Europe).
The authors do live in a bit of a bubble though, and I co-sign what blub says about not everybody everywhere in the Netherlands being as privileged. But yeah, generally the standard of living is quite high, and people tend to prioritize family life and free time. Of course, that's easier when you're living in a country with reliable social security, health care, educational system, etc.
Less tangible, but in my mind also an important factor is the generally non-hierarchical, progressive, secular and tolerant cultural atmosphere, which extends to the expectations people have for their kids. I must admit I've sometimes been jarred by how casually non-deferential even young Dutch kids can be towards grown-ups. (Then again, I've spent a good amount of time here on the blue complaining about how the way I was raised to be polite, accommodating and non-confrontational has kneecapped me in my life, so. Good riddance to all that.)
posted by sively at 9:52 AM on January 8, 2017 [8 favorites]
We're pretty lucky by UK standards in that both our jobs are relatively flexible , and we manage a sit-down meal every evening. But weekday mornings I leave the house with the toddler at 7:35AM to drop him off at nursery then head to work. It's already a stressful scramble to get ready, trying to coordinate a sit-down breakfast for all three of us would be an unpleasant extra burden. It's a lot easier to sit him down with breakfast and then dash off to wash up, prepare bags, empty potty, brush teeth, iron shirt or do whatever else needs to be done.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:53 AM on January 8, 2017
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:53 AM on January 8, 2017
Texting about this with my Dutch mother-in-law, and she agrees with A&C's initial comment, that the social support, health care, leave, etc., supports the primary outcome of healthier family lives. Her sense is that, specifically, one parent being more easily able to be at home full-time, or nearly full-time (and both parents working less time, overall), is the most important, primary outcome of all the social support.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:16 AM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by LooseFilter at 10:16 AM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
One thing I thought about was maybe Americans are very ambitious about meals, because they are so used to eating out/taking out? Those pieces of white bread with chocolate sprinkles are not exactly gourmet fare. Here in Denmark it is usual to eat oats with milk and sugar or yogurt with müsli. Sitting down ten minutes together over not at all ambitious food is not really hard. Or is it?
I remember getting up before dawn to get ready and make it to the bus that atempted to bring kids to school early enough that they could partake in subsidized school breakfast before classes started. I didn't eat school breakfast; I had a bowl of cold cereal, which I prepared and ate in less than 5 minutes. Or I took a pastry or yogurt or something, or didn't eat.
I can't imagine my area's ever worsening traffic situation has improved the timeline. Add to that kids of different ages attending schools with different start times, parents with bad commutes, and the schedule issue of your kid missing the bus (not to mention schools punishing kids for being tardy). I imagine this is why some kids get driven to school; the schedule just makes more sense. Ten minutes for family breakfast might be privilege.
posted by zennie at 10:34 AM on January 8, 2017 [4 favorites]
I remember getting up before dawn to get ready and make it to the bus that atempted to bring kids to school early enough that they could partake in subsidized school breakfast before classes started. I didn't eat school breakfast; I had a bowl of cold cereal, which I prepared and ate in less than 5 minutes. Or I took a pastry or yogurt or something, or didn't eat.
I can't imagine my area's ever worsening traffic situation has improved the timeline. Add to that kids of different ages attending schools with different start times, parents with bad commutes, and the schedule issue of your kid missing the bus (not to mention schools punishing kids for being tardy). I imagine this is why some kids get driven to school; the schedule just makes more sense. Ten minutes for family breakfast might be privilege.
posted by zennie at 10:34 AM on January 8, 2017 [4 favorites]
Here, read this article about how mommy guilt is bad, and you should feel bad for being subjected to it! Look, see how these other parents are doing it better than you?
Blech.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:19 PM on January 8, 2017 [3 favorites]
Blech.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:19 PM on January 8, 2017 [3 favorites]
I still don't get while family meals are such a stressor in the US. The entire world seems to be able to manage home-cooked meals at mealtime, regardless of poverty and long working hours. This is not a polemical question. What are the structural/political/practical reasons it is difficult to eat two meals a day together in the US?
One thing I thought about was maybe Americans are very ambitious about meals, because they are so used to eating out/taking out?
I'll bite. I live in Toronto, Canada. Here's our schedule. We actually do eat breakfast as a family which is one reason this article made me snicker. I have a 6 year old and a 11 year old and my MIL lives with us but does not currently drive due to health issues.
6:45-7:00 breakfast at the table (both adults already washed & dressed & breakfast made) together.
7:02 - my husband leaves for his 1:15-1:30 commute from Scarborough to Oakville (he has a client across the GTA; his commute is on the 407 which is a toll road but is thankfully mostly covered by his work or else this would be longer)
7:40 - my 6 year old and I leave for his daycare. My commute including the daycare stop en route is 1:20; without the daycare stop it's more like 1:05-1:10. I drive to the subway and then take it downtown.
8:10 - my 11 year old, idyllically thanks to my MIL being home to be sure he makes it, walks 20 min to school with his friends, arriving around 8:30 if they don't lollygag, which gives them 15 minutes to play before the bell. When it's below -15 Celsius usually one of the other parents drives the kids.
My 11 year old also walks himself home after school and arrives to my MIL. He sometimes plays with his friends but being in grade 6 he now has a pile of homework to do. He also is an introvert who needs creative time so this is when he...does him, making figurines or sometimes cashing in some screen time chits.
On Mondays and Wednesday my husband is primary pick-up person, so he leaves before 4:30 to account for traffic and barely scrapes up to daycare at 5:55 pm - if he is late it's $20 every five minutes. My 6 year old has martial arts at 6:15 both these nights, only because we cannot get him to an earlier class, so he has a good healthy hearty snack at daycare and then a packed dinner after class. During his martial arts class, my husband picks my 11 year old up, who has had a supper-level snack/meal before 6:30, for his 7 pm martial arts class.
I however stay late to prove my commitment to our corporate mission...if I can, I leave by 5:30. But often I work to 6 or 6:30 because otherwise they will hire someone in their late 20s/early 30s with no kids. .
On Tuesdays and Thursdays my husband proves his career is important by working late, and I leave at 4:40, praying there is no subway delay, and get to daycare at 5:45-5:50 (extra time for transit delays) if I'm lucky, and then I bring my little guy home by 6:05, and then try to get him to bed by 7:10 because see above, so every meal has to be able to be ready in about 30 minutes. We do manage this meal via crockpot or cooking in advance and warming up, but I can't say it doesn't feel rushed.
My MIL does help cook some nights but it's not entirely her thing, and her health issues also mean some nights she's not up to it which is fine, it's our responsibility.
On Fridays, we're lucky because my husband works from home, so he picks my little guy up at 4:45 for his martial arts class and then often I work late to once again prove my worth. My husband works on weekends to make up for this flexibility. We generally have pasta night this night.
Before my MIL joined us my older son was at the same daycare for after-care, but had she not he was too old for it, so we would have had to pick him up at a second daycare location which would have blown the cooking time.
Even though the martial arts seems crazy, we have forgone weeknight Boy Scouts, swimming (which we do Sunday mornings), art classes, soccer, etc. because there's no driver home to manage it and because it already feels super rushed.
So there you go. It's the commute mostly that kills us, but also in our industries we are up against people who do not have kids, all the time. We've had to be very strategic about it.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:20 PM on January 8, 2017 [17 favorites]
One thing I thought about was maybe Americans are very ambitious about meals, because they are so used to eating out/taking out?
I'll bite. I live in Toronto, Canada. Here's our schedule. We actually do eat breakfast as a family which is one reason this article made me snicker. I have a 6 year old and a 11 year old and my MIL lives with us but does not currently drive due to health issues.
6:45-7:00 breakfast at the table (both adults already washed & dressed & breakfast made) together.
7:02 - my husband leaves for his 1:15-1:30 commute from Scarborough to Oakville (he has a client across the GTA; his commute is on the 407 which is a toll road but is thankfully mostly covered by his work or else this would be longer)
7:40 - my 6 year old and I leave for his daycare. My commute including the daycare stop en route is 1:20; without the daycare stop it's more like 1:05-1:10. I drive to the subway and then take it downtown.
8:10 - my 11 year old, idyllically thanks to my MIL being home to be sure he makes it, walks 20 min to school with his friends, arriving around 8:30 if they don't lollygag, which gives them 15 minutes to play before the bell. When it's below -15 Celsius usually one of the other parents drives the kids.
My 11 year old also walks himself home after school and arrives to my MIL. He sometimes plays with his friends but being in grade 6 he now has a pile of homework to do. He also is an introvert who needs creative time so this is when he...does him, making figurines or sometimes cashing in some screen time chits.
On Mondays and Wednesday my husband is primary pick-up person, so he leaves before 4:30 to account for traffic and barely scrapes up to daycare at 5:55 pm - if he is late it's $20 every five minutes. My 6 year old has martial arts at 6:15 both these nights, only because we cannot get him to an earlier class, so he has a good healthy hearty snack at daycare and then a packed dinner after class. During his martial arts class, my husband picks my 11 year old up, who has had a supper-level snack/meal before 6:30, for his 7 pm martial arts class.
I however stay late to prove my commitment to our corporate mission...if I can, I leave by 5:30. But often I work to 6 or 6:30 because otherwise they will hire someone in their late 20s/early 30s with no kids. .
On Tuesdays and Thursdays my husband proves his career is important by working late, and I leave at 4:40, praying there is no subway delay, and get to daycare at 5:45-5:50 (extra time for transit delays) if I'm lucky, and then I bring my little guy home by 6:05, and then try to get him to bed by 7:10 because see above, so every meal has to be able to be ready in about 30 minutes. We do manage this meal via crockpot or cooking in advance and warming up, but I can't say it doesn't feel rushed.
My MIL does help cook some nights but it's not entirely her thing, and her health issues also mean some nights she's not up to it which is fine, it's our responsibility.
On Fridays, we're lucky because my husband works from home, so he picks my little guy up at 4:45 for his martial arts class and then often I work late to once again prove my worth. My husband works on weekends to make up for this flexibility. We generally have pasta night this night.
Before my MIL joined us my older son was at the same daycare for after-care, but had she not he was too old for it, so we would have had to pick him up at a second daycare location which would have blown the cooking time.
Even though the martial arts seems crazy, we have forgone weeknight Boy Scouts, swimming (which we do Sunday mornings), art classes, soccer, etc. because there's no driver home to manage it and because it already feels super rushed.
So there you go. It's the commute mostly that kills us, but also in our industries we are up against people who do not have kids, all the time. We've had to be very strategic about it.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:20 PM on January 8, 2017 [17 favorites]
I should add we're both grateful we have flexibility -- I work shorter days Tue and Thu and longer ones Mon and Wed and my husband works from home Fri.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:22 PM on January 8, 2017
posted by warriorqueen at 12:22 PM on January 8, 2017
many mothers don't work or work part-time because they are expected to take full responsibility for the home.
I worked for many years in the Netherlands as a married woman without children. Women working part time forever after kids is so much the norm that full time working women get a fair bit of social discrimination from other women. "ohhh, you work full time, I see." Reinforces the comments made above about conservatism.
posted by wingless_angel at 12:22 PM on January 8, 2017 [8 favorites]
I worked for many years in the Netherlands as a married woman without children. Women working part time forever after kids is so much the norm that full time working women get a fair bit of social discrimination from other women. "ohhh, you work full time, I see." Reinforces the comments made above about conservatism.
posted by wingless_angel at 12:22 PM on January 8, 2017 [8 favorites]
In addition, new research also suggests that Dutch babies are happier than their American counterparts.
The writer never mentions where this "new research" can be found. Anyway, the problem with happy Dutch babies is that they grow up to be difficult Dutch adults.
posted by My Dad at 12:37 PM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
The writer never mentions where this "new research" can be found. Anyway, the problem with happy Dutch babies is that they grow up to be difficult Dutch adults.
posted by My Dad at 12:37 PM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
ArbitraryAndCapricious, while I fundamentally agree with what you are saying, I still don't get while family meals are such a stressor in the US. The entire world seems to be able to manage home-cooked meals at mealtime, regardless of poverty and long working hours. This is not a polemical question. What are the structural/political/practical reasons it is difficult to eat two meals a day together in the US?
I can answer as an Italian woman. It's because women go home on their lunch break to cook lunch for their family. It's because women go to the store before they go to work and buy fresh food to cook for dinner. It's because girls learn how to cook and clean when they are children. It's because women are socialized to cater to their husbands and children, especially when it comes to food and housekeeping.
I can tell you that my mother worked outside the home as much as my father and yet cooked for all of us, breakfast, lunch and dinner and then washed and dried the dishes, by hand; washed all our clothes by hand, hung them to dry, and then ironed them. Cleaned the house top to bottom, vacuumed every day, and I could go on. It was a wonderful way to grow up for me and a soul crushing amount of work for my mom, which she did with a smile.
When we talk about chores (and homecooked meals are chores, as pleasant as they are) we tend to forget that there is a whole gender taking the brunt of their successful execution and that the more poverty and longer working hours a family experiences, the higher percentage of those chores, if not the totality of those chores, falls to women.
posted by lydhre at 12:38 PM on January 8, 2017 [26 favorites]
I can answer as an Italian woman. It's because women go home on their lunch break to cook lunch for their family. It's because women go to the store before they go to work and buy fresh food to cook for dinner. It's because girls learn how to cook and clean when they are children. It's because women are socialized to cater to their husbands and children, especially when it comes to food and housekeeping.
I can tell you that my mother worked outside the home as much as my father and yet cooked for all of us, breakfast, lunch and dinner and then washed and dried the dishes, by hand; washed all our clothes by hand, hung them to dry, and then ironed them. Cleaned the house top to bottom, vacuumed every day, and I could go on. It was a wonderful way to grow up for me and a soul crushing amount of work for my mom, which she did with a smile.
When we talk about chores (and homecooked meals are chores, as pleasant as they are) we tend to forget that there is a whole gender taking the brunt of their successful execution and that the more poverty and longer working hours a family experiences, the higher percentage of those chores, if not the totality of those chores, falls to women.
posted by lydhre at 12:38 PM on January 8, 2017 [26 favorites]
So if women stop cooking, everyone has to eat processed food? Lydhre, I hear what you are saying and understand it, and it is a good part of why the South in Europe has the lowest rate of reproduction in the world. But it doesn't have to be that way. Already in my generation (I'm 53) a lot of men took over the responsibility for putting food on the table, their sons don't even think about it. In my first comment in this thread, I took issue with the Dutch dependency on stay at home or part time mothers. Any solution that disenfranchises women is off to me.
But if society prioritizes family time, with an equal division of labour between men and women, that must be a good thing.
I guess we all need to reengage in unions. Even here in Denmark where we have a functioning welfare society, the fundamentals are under attack and fake news are undermining real issues. I've always been a union member, but I've also struggled with the real problems unions had when I was young and earlier - of corruption and worse. It was easy to condemn those corrupt leaders and distance oneself from their activities.
posted by mumimor at 12:53 PM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
But if society prioritizes family time, with an equal division of labour between men and women, that must be a good thing.
I guess we all need to reengage in unions. Even here in Denmark where we have a functioning welfare society, the fundamentals are under attack and fake news are undermining real issues. I've always been a union member, but I've also struggled with the real problems unions had when I was young and earlier - of corruption and worse. It was easy to condemn those corrupt leaders and distance oneself from their activities.
posted by mumimor at 12:53 PM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
I was also thinking about why our commute is so lousy. Well one is housing prices although we purchased in 2005, but which make moving back towards the city (we are technically in the City of Toronto but it's basically suburban and was before the suburbs were amalgamated) very pricey.
But also, at that time my husband was 'stationed' at his office which is about 40 min away and I was at an entirely different job that I could get to on commuter train in about 30 min. (I could still take that train but the times don't work well with daycare, plus then it would be a 10 min walk + 10 min bus ride for him home when he's tired, but also I'd have to additionally pay subway fare because my new workplace is not within walking distance of the commuter train, which would put me at $16.10/day commuting cost. With parking and subway right now it is $12/day, not counting gas etc. This dollar and minute calculation I have shared in both my posts is literally how my husband and I live and manage our time & money every. single. week.)
Better transit in Toronto is a huge thing. The city did not invest, because stupid tax politics.
My job changed in part 'cause I was laid off (I made a career move in between where the commute was /worse/), and we both expect we will be laid off again because that's how it works when you're over 45 (me) or 50 (him) and that's why we aren't willing to re-up the mortgage that we hope to have paid off in 5-ish more years.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:55 PM on January 8, 2017
But also, at that time my husband was 'stationed' at his office which is about 40 min away and I was at an entirely different job that I could get to on commuter train in about 30 min. (I could still take that train but the times don't work well with daycare, plus then it would be a 10 min walk + 10 min bus ride for him home when he's tired, but also I'd have to additionally pay subway fare because my new workplace is not within walking distance of the commuter train, which would put me at $16.10/day commuting cost. With parking and subway right now it is $12/day, not counting gas etc. This dollar and minute calculation I have shared in both my posts is literally how my husband and I live and manage our time & money every. single. week.)
Better transit in Toronto is a huge thing. The city did not invest, because stupid tax politics.
My job changed in part 'cause I was laid off (I made a career move in between where the commute was /worse/), and we both expect we will be laid off again because that's how it works when you're over 45 (me) or 50 (him) and that's why we aren't willing to re-up the mortgage that we hope to have paid off in 5-ish more years.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:55 PM on January 8, 2017
It's all fun and games and chocolate sprinkles until their little feetsies are forced into those wooden shoes.
posted by Chitownfats at 1:28 PM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Chitownfats at 1:28 PM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
I feel like the Telegraph is muscling in on the NY Times' traditional turf of trolling mefites with lifestyle articles. For shame, The Telegraph, please let the Times do its thing of telling people how beard-bowls are a real nationwide trend and not just two guys in Brooklyn.
Anyway, life in the Netherlands isn't all sunshine and wheels of cheese.
According to this, the average American would make 19% less money and be 14% more likely to be unemployed. I couldn't find very specific data on house sizes but the rough data I found estimates average home sizes at 200m2 in the US vs about 100m2 in the Netherlands.
So while I think there are a lot of things to admire about the Dutch and their lifestyle, all that time they spend with their kids doesn't come from nowhere - they make significant economic sacrifices to get it.
posted by GuyZero at 1:46 PM on January 8, 2017 [3 favorites]
Anyway, life in the Netherlands isn't all sunshine and wheels of cheese.
According to this, the average American would make 19% less money and be 14% more likely to be unemployed. I couldn't find very specific data on house sizes but the rough data I found estimates average home sizes at 200m2 in the US vs about 100m2 in the Netherlands.
So while I think there are a lot of things to admire about the Dutch and their lifestyle, all that time they spend with their kids doesn't come from nowhere - they make significant economic sacrifices to get it.
posted by GuyZero at 1:46 PM on January 8, 2017 [3 favorites]
So while I think there are a lot of things to admire about the Dutch and their lifestyle, all that time they spend with their kids doesn't come from nowhere - they make significant economic sacrifices to get it.
In Europe, we often joke about the American fixation on personal economy. It seems a bit crazy and very greedy to us. But if you think about it, both sides make sense. In Europe, we don't need to think about education or healthcare at all. Pension is also taken care of, at least to a degree that you will not end on the streets. In the US, you need to plan ahead for health emergencies and education for your kids. Europeans pay into pensions the same as Americans, but there is a basic pension for everyone in Europe.
The "significant economic sacrifices" are just basic insurances, which at the end of the day are much, much cheaper than their American equivalents.
Since I'm an architect, I would like to comment on the scale of homes in the US and in Europe. In Europe, the building regulations are much stricter, for many reasons. This makes the cost of building much higher and homes are definitely smaller than in most of the US. However, there is also an appreciation of quality over quantity across the board. Many families prefer a low-maintenance, low-energy home to a larger glamorous home. Just look at how you can buy a castle for less than a suburban cottage anywhere.
posted by mumimor at 2:14 PM on January 8, 2017 [5 favorites]
In Europe, we often joke about the American fixation on personal economy. It seems a bit crazy and very greedy to us. But if you think about it, both sides make sense. In Europe, we don't need to think about education or healthcare at all. Pension is also taken care of, at least to a degree that you will not end on the streets. In the US, you need to plan ahead for health emergencies and education for your kids. Europeans pay into pensions the same as Americans, but there is a basic pension for everyone in Europe.
The "significant economic sacrifices" are just basic insurances, which at the end of the day are much, much cheaper than their American equivalents.
Since I'm an architect, I would like to comment on the scale of homes in the US and in Europe. In Europe, the building regulations are much stricter, for many reasons. This makes the cost of building much higher and homes are definitely smaller than in most of the US. However, there is also an appreciation of quality over quantity across the board. Many families prefer a low-maintenance, low-energy home to a larger glamorous home. Just look at how you can buy a castle for less than a suburban cottage anywhere.
posted by mumimor at 2:14 PM on January 8, 2017 [5 favorites]
This makes the cost of building much higher and homes are definitely smaller than in most of the US.
I don't think the difference is all due to regulatory differences - materials, energy and land are all cheaper in the US so there's natural incentive for Europeans (and the Dutch specifically) to have smaller, more efficient homes. The Netherlands has 14x the population density of the US overall so it's not like having smaller homes is much of a choice. Presumably this is also why there are shorter commutes in the Netherlands (although I couldn't find good comparative data on this) vs the US - there's just not as far to go.
My only real point is that while social insurance schemes are fine and I mostly like them I think people gloss over the downsides.
posted by GuyZero at 2:27 PM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't think the difference is all due to regulatory differences - materials, energy and land are all cheaper in the US so there's natural incentive for Europeans (and the Dutch specifically) to have smaller, more efficient homes. The Netherlands has 14x the population density of the US overall so it's not like having smaller homes is much of a choice. Presumably this is also why there are shorter commutes in the Netherlands (although I couldn't find good comparative data on this) vs the US - there's just not as far to go.
My only real point is that while social insurance schemes are fine and I mostly like them I think people gloss over the downsides.
posted by GuyZero at 2:27 PM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
In the US, you need to plan ahead for health emergencies and education for your kids.
I'd say not even that is the true difference, for it's the socially constructed belief that such a "need" of the economic man is internalized as a basic or fundamental need. That's indicative of the prevailing ideology, one that preemptively stops a culture from even asking how things could be really different, unless perhaps confronted by articles like these.
posted by polymodus at 2:28 PM on January 8, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'd say not even that is the true difference, for it's the socially constructed belief that such a "need" of the economic man is internalized as a basic or fundamental need. That's indicative of the prevailing ideology, one that preemptively stops a culture from even asking how things could be really different, unless perhaps confronted by articles like these.
posted by polymodus at 2:28 PM on January 8, 2017 [3 favorites]
But it doesn't have to be that way.
Of course it doesn't have to be that way. All that has to happen is for our various societies to value and respect women's lives and time as equal to men's.
Until then, it'll be that way.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:33 PM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
Of course it doesn't have to be that way. All that has to happen is for our various societies to value and respect women's lives and time as equal to men's.
Until then, it'll be that way.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:33 PM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'd chime in a close friend married a Swede-- she chose to come to the US for personal reasons like GuyZero outlined-- a very conscious rejection of the 'Social Insurance' model, in favor of the US one.
She always explained this as 'wanting more' for her children than she had the opportunity to have. I'd never question someone's very personal choices on a matter like that-- but yes-- a healthier social safety net also carries with it the idea that you're also 'chopping off the ultra-high-end' of personal luxury, for most people.
posted by mrdaneri at 2:34 PM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
She always explained this as 'wanting more' for her children than she had the opportunity to have. I'd never question someone's very personal choices on a matter like that-- but yes-- a healthier social safety net also carries with it the idea that you're also 'chopping off the ultra-high-end' of personal luxury, for most people.
posted by mrdaneri at 2:34 PM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
You can easily find a US-priced home in the Netherlands or anywhere else in Europe if you will accept an American style commute and American quality of construction. Strangely, even US expats rarely do this.
For someone like me, the American model is better. I have a long, "useful" education, and I would earn much more in the US. I could pay an illegal immigrant to take care of my children, since I would be within the top 10%, and my children would have access to the best education in the world. I'd have a bigger house. The thing is, my entry to the US would be based on my free education here in socialist Europe, and even today, my euro kids will still have better chances than most Americans at getting into an Ivy League University. Not least at my alma mater which I still donate to.
But what if I wasn't among the top ten? Everything would be better for me in Europe. Housing, education, workers rights, healthcare, pension.
Among the many reasons I moved back to Europe, economy wasn't one, but freedom was. By moving back, I achieved the freedom to not work 50 hours a week, to not be in a relationship, to not worry about my career. I still did all of these, but I didn't have to.
I'd say not even that is the true difference, for it's the socially constructed belief that such a "need" of the economic man is internalized as a need. That's indicative of the prevailing ideology, one that preemptively stops a culture from even asking how things could be really different.
Can you explain this in common language?
posted by mumimor at 2:46 PM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
For someone like me, the American model is better. I have a long, "useful" education, and I would earn much more in the US. I could pay an illegal immigrant to take care of my children, since I would be within the top 10%, and my children would have access to the best education in the world. I'd have a bigger house. The thing is, my entry to the US would be based on my free education here in socialist Europe, and even today, my euro kids will still have better chances than most Americans at getting into an Ivy League University. Not least at my alma mater which I still donate to.
But what if I wasn't among the top ten? Everything would be better for me in Europe. Housing, education, workers rights, healthcare, pension.
Among the many reasons I moved back to Europe, economy wasn't one, but freedom was. By moving back, I achieved the freedom to not work 50 hours a week, to not be in a relationship, to not worry about my career. I still did all of these, but I didn't have to.
I'd say not even that is the true difference, for it's the socially constructed belief that such a "need" of the economic man is internalized as a need. That's indicative of the prevailing ideology, one that preemptively stops a culture from even asking how things could be really different.
Can you explain this in common language?
posted by mumimor at 2:46 PM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
I could pay an illegal immigrant to take care of my children
Wile there are plenty of illegal or undocumented people working in the US (often paying taxes just fine), personal child care isn't one area where they usually work. A nanny is essentially an employee of the parents and as such their pay is tax-deductible but the parents need to verify the nanny's employment records, get a SSN, etc. Unlike businesses, since most families don't have a lot of employees, this is pretty easy to do. Which is not to say that it never happens, but everyone I know with a nanny has them legally - if you didn't you'd miss out on the tax write-off.
While a lot of childcare workers in the US are indeed immigrants, most are perfectly legal immigrants. If nothing else they can get 6-month B-1 visas.
The US' immigration system is pretty crappy, but enough people want to get in that a lot of them have managed to do it perfectly legally.
posted by GuyZero at 3:06 PM on January 8, 2017
Wile there are plenty of illegal or undocumented people working in the US (often paying taxes just fine), personal child care isn't one area where they usually work. A nanny is essentially an employee of the parents and as such their pay is tax-deductible but the parents need to verify the nanny's employment records, get a SSN, etc. Unlike businesses, since most families don't have a lot of employees, this is pretty easy to do. Which is not to say that it never happens, but everyone I know with a nanny has them legally - if you didn't you'd miss out on the tax write-off.
While a lot of childcare workers in the US are indeed immigrants, most are perfectly legal immigrants. If nothing else they can get 6-month B-1 visas.
The US' immigration system is pretty crappy, but enough people want to get in that a lot of them have managed to do it perfectly legally.
posted by GuyZero at 3:06 PM on January 8, 2017
Since I'm an architect, I would like to comment on the scale of homes in the US and in Europe. In Europe, the building regulations are much stricter, for many reasons. This makes the cost of building much higher and homes are definitely smaller than in most of the US. However, there is also an appreciation of quality over quantity across the board. Many families prefer a low-maintenance, low-energy home to a larger glamorous home.
Here in the UK we go for a hybrid model: low quality, high priced small homes with long commutes and almost no protection for tenants.
posted by ambrosen at 3:25 PM on January 8, 2017 [10 favorites]
Here in the UK we go for a hybrid model: low quality, high priced small homes with long commutes and almost no protection for tenants.
posted by ambrosen at 3:25 PM on January 8, 2017 [10 favorites]
When I lived in the US, I had a nanny for my child, and he was not on any books. I don't remember how it was worked out, it was probably semi-legal, but I am not writing out of ignorance.
posted by mumimor at 3:29 PM on January 8, 2017
posted by mumimor at 3:29 PM on January 8, 2017
I don't remember how it was worked out, it was probably semi-legal, but I am not writing out of ignorance.
Odd that you didn't feel it necessary to pay the legally mandated social security tax for your employee, but whatever.
posted by GuyZero at 3:37 PM on January 8, 2017
Odd that you didn't feel it necessary to pay the legally mandated social security tax for your employee, but whatever.
posted by GuyZero at 3:37 PM on January 8, 2017
Odd that you didn't feel it necessary to pay the legally mandated social security tax for your employee, but whatever.
I brought him with me from where I came, and made sure he had a secure future afterwards, but yeah, you are absolutely right, what if he had wanted to stay on in the US. Mea culpa.
posted by mumimor at 3:42 PM on January 8, 2017
I brought him with me from where I came, and made sure he had a secure future afterwards, but yeah, you are absolutely right, what if he had wanted to stay on in the US. Mea culpa.
posted by mumimor at 3:42 PM on January 8, 2017
The point was another — here in Europe I don't need a top-ten income to afford care or education for my kids, and I certainly don't need to employ illegal workers.
posted by mumimor at 3:47 PM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 3:47 PM on January 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
As a Dutch-American woman without kids, I find I agree with some of the article, but it elides over a lot of structural issues and hidden costs.
As noted above, by and large Dutch women don't work full time. I was regularly asked by employers when I would leave to have babies. My former in-laws to this day believe that my infertility was caused by my strange insistence on having a career.
In my age cohort and social circle, my friends with children did *not* split duties at home equally. Most of the women dropped down to less than 3 days a week and the men maybe would take one papa dag per week. Maybe. Day care is so expensive that most women would need to pay to make use of it, and there is considerable social stigma in using day care. One day a week is okay, but more than that makes you a bad mother. Dutch culture is very very conservative, and racism and open sexism are quite normal. I consider it home, and it has many good points, but it is not paradise.
I tend to think Sweden does a much better job of balancing family and gender equality, but the grass is always greener, etc etc
posted by frumiousb at 6:21 PM on January 8, 2017 [12 favorites]
As noted above, by and large Dutch women don't work full time. I was regularly asked by employers when I would leave to have babies. My former in-laws to this day believe that my infertility was caused by my strange insistence on having a career.
In my age cohort and social circle, my friends with children did *not* split duties at home equally. Most of the women dropped down to less than 3 days a week and the men maybe would take one papa dag per week. Maybe. Day care is so expensive that most women would need to pay to make use of it, and there is considerable social stigma in using day care. One day a week is okay, but more than that makes you a bad mother. Dutch culture is very very conservative, and racism and open sexism are quite normal. I consider it home, and it has many good points, but it is not paradise.
I tend to think Sweden does a much better job of balancing family and gender equality, but the grass is always greener, etc etc
posted by frumiousb at 6:21 PM on January 8, 2017 [12 favorites]
I would never cut a baby in half, no matter what the research said.
posted by benadryl at 4:12 AM on January 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by benadryl at 4:12 AM on January 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Well if in the Netherlands the roads are constructed to make ample room for bike paths (they are) such that anyone can get on a bike *in their work clothes* and *without a helmet* and bike to work without so much as breaking a sweat, let alone being killed instantly; and if it's the norm for children to hop on a bike and ride 10km to wherever they need to be - that's a hell of a lot of commuting time and expense that just goes away.
If the kids can take themselves to school and back, and to their activities and back, without having to climb into an SUV and be driven there, you can see how much that would free up everybody's schedules.
Some years ago I read a letter to a newspaper whimsically dreaming about how nice it would be if Britain could adopt the custom "the Italians call *paseo*" whereby you have a walk around in the centre of town, meet friends, sit down and have a drink with them, walk around a bit more...
Well in the first place, the Italians call this custom *passeggiata*, not *paseo*, and their town centres are actually constructed with enough pedestrian space to make this ancient custom feasible, not to mention that the weather favours it for a bigger percentage of the year.
In the second place, from what I observed, it wasn't adults following this custom very much - they tended to stay home. Mostly it was teenagers out for a walk. And we had this phenomenon in Britain too, except it was called "youths hanging around in town centres making Daily Fail readers feel intimidated". Yes, British Youths were hanging around because they didn't have any legitimate recreational activities particularly available to them that didn't cost £££s. But... so were the Italian teens. Because the Italian teens I knew didn't have that much to do either. They had no municipal facilities, not even something as basic as a public library.
The main difference was that the Italian teens were "allowed" to be out and about. Nonetheless, it was a very boring custom if you ask me.
So despite the less obvious similarities... there's still a lot that would have to be done to British infrastructure to incorporate this charming and delightful Italian custom, including massive pedestrianization of town centres, an overhaul of the drinking culture, and getting over the fear of children.
I gather the younger generation are much more clean-living now than in the past, so there's progress on the drinking culture already. I'm not a grinch about cultural change. It's just that there are always big infrastructural reasons why things are the way they are in these charming quaint other cultures.
posted by tel3path at 7:07 AM on January 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
If the kids can take themselves to school and back, and to their activities and back, without having to climb into an SUV and be driven there, you can see how much that would free up everybody's schedules.
Some years ago I read a letter to a newspaper whimsically dreaming about how nice it would be if Britain could adopt the custom "the Italians call *paseo*" whereby you have a walk around in the centre of town, meet friends, sit down and have a drink with them, walk around a bit more...
Well in the first place, the Italians call this custom *passeggiata*, not *paseo*, and their town centres are actually constructed with enough pedestrian space to make this ancient custom feasible, not to mention that the weather favours it for a bigger percentage of the year.
In the second place, from what I observed, it wasn't adults following this custom very much - they tended to stay home. Mostly it was teenagers out for a walk. And we had this phenomenon in Britain too, except it was called "youths hanging around in town centres making Daily Fail readers feel intimidated". Yes, British Youths were hanging around because they didn't have any legitimate recreational activities particularly available to them that didn't cost £££s. But... so were the Italian teens. Because the Italian teens I knew didn't have that much to do either. They had no municipal facilities, not even something as basic as a public library.
The main difference was that the Italian teens were "allowed" to be out and about. Nonetheless, it was a very boring custom if you ask me.
So despite the less obvious similarities... there's still a lot that would have to be done to British infrastructure to incorporate this charming and delightful Italian custom, including massive pedestrianization of town centres, an overhaul of the drinking culture, and getting over the fear of children.
I gather the younger generation are much more clean-living now than in the past, so there's progress on the drinking culture already. I'm not a grinch about cultural change. It's just that there are always big infrastructural reasons why things are the way they are in these charming quaint other cultures.
posted by tel3path at 7:07 AM on January 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
commute from Scarborough to Oakville
Pardon me but I just want to soak in the horror of this very idea a little more.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:27 AM on January 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Pardon me but I just want to soak in the horror of this very idea a little more.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:27 AM on January 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
In the second place, from what I observed, it wasn't adults following this custom very much - they tended to stay home. Mostly it was teenagers out for a walk.
In my experience, the older adults tend to participate as well, though often in more of a "I'll walk to the cafe with the best view of the teenagers walking around and sit and have a glass of wine and watch them" way.
posted by lazuli at 6:30 AM on January 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
In my experience, the older adults tend to participate as well, though often in more of a "I'll walk to the cafe with the best view of the teenagers walking around and sit and have a glass of wine and watch them" way.
posted by lazuli at 6:30 AM on January 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
Hah, I can tell you that plenty of Italian adults regard loitering teenagers with plenty of suspicion. I was one of those teenagers once and my own parents thought it was dangerous and unacceptable and we were probably all doing drugs and vandalizing property and listening to bad music way too loudly. "La comitiva" or "the group" is not a value neutral entity in Italian towns.
Passeggiare, or walking about, is definitely the realm of older folks, especially retired folks. I mean, Italian cities are very walkable/bikeable in general and I'm not denying that there's a culture of "fare due/tre/quattro passi" after lunch (ie take one/two/three steps outside, all of which are acceptable idioms for going for a walk) but it's not because teenagers in Italy are regarded any better than they are in the rest of the world, alas.
posted by lydhre at 11:51 AM on January 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
Passeggiare, or walking about, is definitely the realm of older folks, especially retired folks. I mean, Italian cities are very walkable/bikeable in general and I'm not denying that there's a culture of "fare due/tre/quattro passi" after lunch (ie take one/two/three steps outside, all of which are acceptable idioms for going for a walk) but it's not because teenagers in Italy are regarded any better than they are in the rest of the world, alas.
posted by lydhre at 11:51 AM on January 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
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posted by XMLicious at 4:54 AM on January 8, 2017 [34 favorites]