Remember those crazy Danes?
August 14, 2017 1:06 PM Subscribe
It's been a while. And now, just as they are about to launch their biggest rocket so far, Copenhagen Suborbital's founder Peter Madsen has been arrested for murder.
The sinking in particular seems a rather poor attempt at cover up - the woman had been reported missing so the navy were searching, and then...
posted by JonB at 1:20 PM on August 14, 2017
Kristian Isbak, who had responded to the navy’s call to help locate the ship, sailed out immediately Friday and saw Madsen standing wearing his trademark military fatigues in the submarine’s tower while it was still afloat.Although the body still missing does complicate things.
“He then climbed down inside the submarine and there was then some kind of air flow coming up and the submarine started to sink,” Isbak said. “[He] came up again and stayed in the tower until water came into it”, before swimming to a nearby boat as the submarine sank, he added.
posted by JonB at 1:20 PM on August 14, 2017
How difficult is it to prosecute murder charges in Denmark if there's no body? It's tricky in the US but I know it's been done successfully, but I've heard of places where it's not legally possible.
posted by tavella at 1:26 PM on August 14, 2017
posted by tavella at 1:26 PM on August 14, 2017
He's been charged with negligent manslaughter. Negligent manslaughter is not murder, no matter how much NPR wants to sex up their story.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:41 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Sys Rq at 1:41 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
What he's been charged with is unclear. The BBC article says "negligent homicide", but the Guardian article has this:
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 1:51 PM on August 14, 2017
Prosecutor Louise Pedersen said Madsen faced a preliminary manslaughter charge “for having killed in an unknown way and in an unknown place Kim Isabell Frerika Wall of Sweden sometime after Thursday 5pm”.Anybody more familiar with Danish Law know what this kind of charge can lead to?
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 1:51 PM on August 14, 2017
Title seems a bit fucking flippant under the circumstances, no?
posted by ODiV at 2:28 PM on August 14, 2017 [34 favorites]
posted by ODiV at 2:28 PM on August 14, 2017 [34 favorites]
This is so depressing. That poor woman trusted him to be a bare-minimum human being. And they only reason we care is that he was good at building things.
posted by lumpenprole at 2:43 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by lumpenprole at 2:43 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]
Who was the ... driver writer???... with whuffie among the Open Source crowd who killed his significant other and denied it roundly and was so surprised when he got caught? Early aughts, Bay Area?
(I really hope there was only one.)
posted by clew at 2:59 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
(I really hope there was only one.)
posted by clew at 2:59 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
Hans Reiser of ReiserFS fame maybe, clew?
posted by Skorgu at 3:01 PM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by Skorgu at 3:01 PM on August 14, 2017 [10 favorites]
It's worth noting that Madsen left the rocket company in 2014, according to Wikipedia at least.
posted by Pfardentrott at 3:02 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Pfardentrott at 3:02 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Two problems with this, as it appears from my US-only knowledge of law. One is that here at least it's very hard to get a conviction for killing someone without a body. Given the circumstances we may strongly suspect, but certainly cannot prove, that she is dead.
Second that they obvoiusly suspected he scuttled the sub with her inside, which would be at best negligent manslaughter, but they now have the sub and still no body. So maybe he did scuttle the sub, but maybe for some other reason -- who knows? Looks a bit premature to enter a process where you have to prove anything.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:08 PM on August 14, 2017
Second that they obvoiusly suspected he scuttled the sub with her inside, which would be at best negligent manslaughter, but they now have the sub and still no body. So maybe he did scuttle the sub, but maybe for some other reason -- who knows? Looks a bit premature to enter a process where you have to prove anything.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:08 PM on August 14, 2017
It's also illegal to scuttle a sub or ship intentionally, due to environmental effects and potential collisions with other ships.
posted by dilaudid at 3:20 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by dilaudid at 3:20 PM on August 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
Maybe, in the wake of this murder, we'll stop lionizing extraordinarily poorly-socialized human beings simply because of their raw technical competence.
Naw, who am I kidding?
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:39 PM on August 14, 2017 [17 favorites]
Naw, who am I kidding?
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:39 PM on August 14, 2017 [17 favorites]
I think it's fair to lionize people simply because of their raw technical competence, to exactly the same degree we lionize others simply because of their raw artistic ability or other singular quality.
We just have to remember that having said competence, ability or quality does not rule out being horrific human beings in other ways, and if such horrific nature should come to light it is in no way excused by its possessor also having said competence, ability, or quality.
posted by Four Ds at 3:51 PM on August 14, 2017 [33 favorites]
We just have to remember that having said competence, ability or quality does not rule out being horrific human beings in other ways, and if such horrific nature should come to light it is in no way excused by its possessor also having said competence, ability, or quality.
posted by Four Ds at 3:51 PM on August 14, 2017 [33 favorites]
The Baltic sea is pretty darned deep, if he motored at 5 knots straight out and dumped the poor woman well weighted it would be virtually unrecoverable even with exact coordinates. If there was blood in the vessel, filling it with sea water would be an effective cleansing of evidence. It was raised quite quickly (many wrecks if not directly impacting commercial shipping are just left) so there may be compelling evidence of foul play.
posted by sammyo at 3:57 PM on August 14, 2017
posted by sammyo at 3:57 PM on August 14, 2017
It's not the Baltic as such. It's the Oresund region which is not super-deep. Baltic's way further east.
posted by kariebookish at 4:06 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by kariebookish at 4:06 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Uagtsomt manddrab - inadvertently killing someone through negligence or such (lack of intent to kill). You serve between 4 months and 8 years.
If you commit a first-degree murder, you tend to get life which in Denmark means roughly 17 years (unless specific circumstances apply. One cop killer served 33 years).
Anyway, there is heightened attention on this in Danish media as the alleged guy is a) a micro-celebrity, b) the astounding circumstances, and c) the whole Danish guy/Swedish woman which gives the whole sad story a flavour of Nordic Noir. I bet film producers are already plotting how to make this story into a film.
posted by kariebookish at 4:20 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]
If you commit a first-degree murder, you tend to get life which in Denmark means roughly 17 years (unless specific circumstances apply. One cop killer served 33 years).
Anyway, there is heightened attention on this in Danish media as the alleged guy is a) a micro-celebrity, b) the astounding circumstances, and c) the whole Danish guy/Swedish woman which gives the whole sad story a flavour of Nordic Noir. I bet film producers are already plotting how to make this story into a film.
posted by kariebookish at 4:20 PM on August 14, 2017 [5 favorites]
I bet film producers are already plotting how to make this story into a film.
Probably so, but the first step is to figure out what probably happened, and right now we don't even have a plausible theory. It's a very weird thing.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:38 PM on August 14, 2017
Probably so, but the first step is to figure out what probably happened, and right now we don't even have a plausible theory. It's a very weird thing.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:38 PM on August 14, 2017
You have a rather puzzling take on this, Bringer Tom. First:
"Second that they obvoiusly suspected he scuttled the sub with her inside, which would be at best negligent manslaughter"
... exactly how would someone intentionally drowning someone be "at best negligent manslaughter"? That's premeditated murder just about anywhere. And then...
"right now we don't even have a plausible theory"
Exactly how is "killed her and then sank her body at sea" not a 'plausible theory' when two people go out in a sub, only one comes back, and that person a) hastily scuttles the sub as soon as he is in a place where he can swim to safety and b) claims he put her ashore in a place when the security video says he did not?
posted by tavella at 5:57 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
"Second that they obvoiusly suspected he scuttled the sub with her inside, which would be at best negligent manslaughter"
... exactly how would someone intentionally drowning someone be "at best negligent manslaughter"? That's premeditated murder just about anywhere. And then...
"right now we don't even have a plausible theory"
Exactly how is "killed her and then sank her body at sea" not a 'plausible theory' when two people go out in a sub, only one comes back, and that person a) hastily scuttles the sub as soon as he is in a place where he can swim to safety and b) claims he put her ashore in a place when the security video says he did not?
posted by tavella at 5:57 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
I heard an interview with a Danish journalist on NPR this weekend**. He explained that Madsen was first arrested under the charge of murder, but that a judge (at the initial remand/bail hearing?) found insufficient evidence for that charge, and ordered him held under suspicion of manslaughter. The journalist also said that this was based at least partially on information Madsen gave to investigators after his arrest, but that details of any statements he made are privileged, and that Madsen's lawyer is now disputing the veracity of anything said to the police so far.
The journalist also said the Danish press are all calling this case "Denmark's OJ Simpson Case", because Madsen was already a household name in the country.
**I thought it was either BBC's World Service, or PRI's The World, but I'm not finding it on either website. I'll post a link as soon as I find it.
posted by Anoplura at 5:57 PM on August 14, 2017
The journalist also said the Danish press are all calling this case "Denmark's OJ Simpson Case", because Madsen was already a household name in the country.
**I thought it was either BBC's World Service, or PRI's The World, but I'm not finding it on either website. I'll post a link as soon as I find it.
posted by Anoplura at 5:57 PM on August 14, 2017
Denmark's OJ Simpson Case
"if the sub don't fit..."
posted by mwhybark at 6:03 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
"if the sub don't fit..."
posted by mwhybark at 6:03 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
Tavella, I said "at best" because it's most likely worse than negligent manslaughter, maybe only being negligent if you can't prove it's intentional. And we don't have a plausible theory because we can't prove he killed her and sank her body. We can be very strongly suspicious that that's what happened, but without more evidence going further in that direction is very irresponsible. I don't know the law in Denmark, but here in the US we have the whole presumption of innocence thing that has to be dealt with.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:24 PM on August 14, 2017
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:24 PM on August 14, 2017
"if the sub don't fit..."
Okay, that was funny in the way nothing like that should be funny, but I couldn't help laughing. I will throw an extra positive thoughtform at the missing journalist in the hope she turns up on some island asking what the fuss is all about. Not that I expect that, but yeah it would be great if that happened.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:26 PM on August 14, 2017
Okay, that was funny in the way nothing like that should be funny, but I couldn't help laughing. I will throw an extra positive thoughtform at the missing journalist in the hope she turns up on some island asking what the fuss is all about. Not that I expect that, but yeah it would be great if that happened.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:26 PM on August 14, 2017
It's a good thing the police in Denmark are handling this then instead of random blog commenters?
posted by ODiV at 6:27 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by ODiV at 6:27 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
Most likely, ODiV.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:30 PM on August 14, 2017
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:30 PM on August 14, 2017
plausible: "seeming reasonable or probable". Again, it is an extremely reasonable and probable theory that he murdered her and disposed of her body. It's utterly bizarre that you think it's irresponsible to think that. Presumption of innocence is entirely a matter of courts and juries, not of private persons. If you want to say that there is not yet evidence to convict him, perhaps, though the whole only two people on a sealed vessel and one disappears and the other tries to destroy evidence and lies about where they were thing would get you pretty damn far in a US court. But that is a matter for the Danish police and courts; I'm quite comfortable thinking that the reasonable belief is that he killed her. Could other things have happened? Sure. But they aren't very high probabilities -- respected journalists don't generally participate in 'pranks' that could put them in legal jeopardy and devastate their loved ones, it's really hard to accidentally fall off of a submarine undetected, etc etc.
posted by tavella at 6:56 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by tavella at 6:56 PM on August 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
tavella, I don't think it's irresponsible to think that. I think it pretty firmly myself. But if you are conducting a prosecution, or if you are producing a show for which you might be liable for defamation of character, you have to have your i's dotted and your t's crossed. We are nowhere near having that now. The big question, is if her body wasn't in the sub, where the f*ck is it, and that's a thing that someone needs to look at with an electron microscope. But we don't need to be writing Movies of the Week based on what we know now, because really it while it looks really, really likely that something bad happened, we don't actually know what the bad thing was, or why, or any of the other stuff you'd want to base that TV movie on.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:18 PM on August 14, 2017
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:18 PM on August 14, 2017
I think it's fair to lionize people simply because of their raw technical competence, to exactly the same degree we lionize others simply because of their raw artistic ability or other singular quality.
We just have to remember that having said competence, ability or quality does not rule out being horrific human beings in other ways, and if such horrific nature should come to light it is in no way excused by its possessor also having said competence, ability, or quality.
Not placing judgement (although I do remember gleefully watching the sub construction photoshoots), but isn't it a sort of thing of madness and brilliance living on the same dorm floor?
(If you need more proof, check my post history)
posted by Samizdata at 7:38 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
We just have to remember that having said competence, ability or quality does not rule out being horrific human beings in other ways, and if such horrific nature should come to light it is in no way excused by its possessor also having said competence, ability, or quality.
Not placing judgement (although I do remember gleefully watching the sub construction photoshoots), but isn't it a sort of thing of madness and brilliance living on the same dorm floor?
(If you need more proof, check my post history)
posted by Samizdata at 7:38 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is going to be the craziest episode of Law & Order next season, isn't it?
I remember when Madsen first started posting about the rocket project on the Ars Technica forums. He did great build progress posts, lots of photos, very exciting. I haven't logged in to Ars in almost a decade but there's that weird internet community familiarity that I'm not sure is even valid giving me some cognitive dissonance.
posted by rodlymight at 7:45 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
I remember when Madsen first started posting about the rocket project on the Ars Technica forums. He did great build progress posts, lots of photos, very exciting. I haven't logged in to Ars in almost a decade but there's that weird internet community familiarity that I'm not sure is even valid giving me some cognitive dissonance.
posted by rodlymight at 7:45 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
dilaudid: "It's also illegal to scuttle a sub or ship intentionally, due to environmental effects and potential collisions with other ships."
The penalty for which is likely much less than murder.
posted by Mitheral at 10:08 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
The penalty for which is likely much less than murder.
posted by Mitheral at 10:08 PM on August 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
If they did make this into a Nordic-noir film/TV series, would they (a) have Eccentric Submarine Tycoon kill the victim/dispose of her body in the obvious manner, (b) have it that he or someone else killed her before, and faked her having been alive until then, (c) have her be alive, and reemerge in the last episode as the twist ending, or (d) have it that she and/or he never actually existed and the whole thing goes far deeper, typically involving high-level international business deals and secrets that threaten to bring down at least one government?
posted by acb at 1:39 AM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by acb at 1:39 AM on August 15, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's such a horrifying story, imagine her being alone at sea with a crazy person. In one of all the old and new articles about him circulating right now, he specifically mentions that what he likes about the submarine is that it is outside the radar of the law.
A quote from that article:
"I'd like to secretly build a huge balloon and fly over Copenahen in it while a sea of police vehicles are chasing me on the ground. I'll land the balloon between the two spires of Roskilde Cathedral, while the police are there ready to catch me. I don't know if that will be exactly what I do, but I will create a happening on a gigantic scale," he told Søndagsavisen)
So I was looking for updates in the tabloids this morning, and this article (in Danish) explains/guesses how they can charge him of manslaughter when there is no body. The main theory seems to be that there is something in her communication with her boyfriend that gave him reason to fear for her life.
It seems the police are asking all witnesses to keep silent, I suppose because they need to be able to confront Madsen with his lies. So we probably won't know much until they have solved the case. But it does seem sadly simple: if there had been an accident or if she left the boat safely somewhere, why would he lie, and why would he sink the submarine?
posted by mumimor at 3:42 AM on August 15, 2017 [5 favorites]
A quote from that article:
»Jeg håber, jeg på sigt får en kriminel løbebane. Ikke at jeg vil røve en bank. Nej for satan, det må ikke gå ud over nogen,« sagde han til Søndagsavisen i 2014. Men han vil gerne lave en happening af 'gigantiske dimensioner'.(My rough translation: "I hope that in time, I will have a criminal track. Not that I'd rob a bank, no dammit, it mustn't hurt anyone", he told Søndagsavisen in 2014. But he wants to make a happening on a gigantic scale.
»Jeg vil gerne i al hemmelighed bygge en kæmpestor brintballon og flyve ind over København i den, mens et hav af politibiler jagter mig nede på jorden. Ballonen vil jeg lande mellem de to spir på Roskilde Domkirke, mens politiet står klar til at fange mig. Jeg ved ikke, om det bliver lige præcis det, jeg kommer til at gøre, men jeg vil lave en happening af gigantiske dimensioner,« sagde han til Søndagsavisen.
"I'd like to secretly build a huge balloon and fly over Copenahen in it while a sea of police vehicles are chasing me on the ground. I'll land the balloon between the two spires of Roskilde Cathedral, while the police are there ready to catch me. I don't know if that will be exactly what I do, but I will create a happening on a gigantic scale," he told Søndagsavisen)
So I was looking for updates in the tabloids this morning, and this article (in Danish) explains/guesses how they can charge him of manslaughter when there is no body. The main theory seems to be that there is something in her communication with her boyfriend that gave him reason to fear for her life.
It seems the police are asking all witnesses to keep silent, I suppose because they need to be able to confront Madsen with his lies. So we probably won't know much until they have solved the case. But it does seem sadly simple: if there had been an accident or if she left the boat safely somewhere, why would he lie, and why would he sink the submarine?
posted by mumimor at 3:42 AM on August 15, 2017 [5 favorites]
mumimor, that is a terrifying quote. I've also been slightly terrified by some of reactions I've seen online from Danish friends who find it incredible that a man they idolise might have committed a murder/involuntary manslaughter. Some have even been at sea with him (hey, Denmark is a small country).
posted by kariebookish at 5:04 AM on August 15, 2017
posted by kariebookish at 5:04 AM on August 15, 2017
Given the current context, the quote is a bit creepy, but it sounds far more like "I want to create a spectacle and be a bit of an outlaw like when the German flew a little Cessna to Moscow and landed in Red Square" than "I want to murder someone."
I'd be more skeptical of the charges if this was all happening in the US, given how prosecutors here love to exaggerate beyond all connection to reality at times. Since it's Denmark, I'm only finding it strange so far, but I'm sure it will make more sense when all the facts come out. Last I saw, what few bits of information had been released barely gave enough to even infer that a crime had been committed, but it's still early times yet.
posted by wierdo at 7:55 AM on August 15, 2017
I'd be more skeptical of the charges if this was all happening in the US, given how prosecutors here love to exaggerate beyond all connection to reality at times. Since it's Denmark, I'm only finding it strange so far, but I'm sure it will make more sense when all the facts come out. Last I saw, what few bits of information had been released barely gave enough to even infer that a crime had been committed, but it's still early times yet.
posted by wierdo at 7:55 AM on August 15, 2017
Given the current context, the quote is a bit creepy, but it sounds far more like "I want to create a spectacle and be a bit of an outlaw like when the German flew a little Cessna to Moscow and landed in Red Square" than "I want to murder someone."
I agree he probably meant it that way, but in my experience, all the people I've met who talked publicly (as opposed to among friends with beer on the table) about that kind of fantasies have been dangerously insane. Before, I often walked my dog near his site, and I've always found the atmosphere there somehow scary, though my dog is big, and I've never felt personally threatened or anything like it. I've never met him, but I know a lot of people who know him. None of them have spoken to the press or posted on FB the last few days, which makes sense. From what they have told before all this happened, he is a complicated person, who has many enemies and past grievances. He is also personally bankrupt.
Last I saw, what few bits of information had been released barely gave enough to even infer that a crime had been committed, but it's still early times yet.
I can't stop myself from reloading the newssites, and it seems at this point, the police are focused on tracking the route of the submarine from Thursday night till Friday morning. I suppose this is both for the purpose of finding Ms Wall and in order to create a probable description of what happened for the trial. I also imagine he is being interviewed by some experts who may be able to get him to tell the truth.
Ms Wall has been missing since 8:30 PM Thursday when she was last seen, and there is evidence that the sub was sunk on purpose. I think it's fair to say something has happened. It might have been an accident and he panicked, it might have been more sinister. We'll just have to wait and see.
posted by mumimor at 9:21 AM on August 15, 2017
I agree he probably meant it that way, but in my experience, all the people I've met who talked publicly (as opposed to among friends with beer on the table) about that kind of fantasies have been dangerously insane. Before, I often walked my dog near his site, and I've always found the atmosphere there somehow scary, though my dog is big, and I've never felt personally threatened or anything like it. I've never met him, but I know a lot of people who know him. None of them have spoken to the press or posted on FB the last few days, which makes sense. From what they have told before all this happened, he is a complicated person, who has many enemies and past grievances. He is also personally bankrupt.
Last I saw, what few bits of information had been released barely gave enough to even infer that a crime had been committed, but it's still early times yet.
I can't stop myself from reloading the newssites, and it seems at this point, the police are focused on tracking the route of the submarine from Thursday night till Friday morning. I suppose this is both for the purpose of finding Ms Wall and in order to create a probable description of what happened for the trial. I also imagine he is being interviewed by some experts who may be able to get him to tell the truth.
Ms Wall has been missing since 8:30 PM Thursday when she was last seen, and there is evidence that the sub was sunk on purpose. I think it's fair to say something has happened. It might have been an accident and he panicked, it might have been more sinister. We'll just have to wait and see.
posted by mumimor at 9:21 AM on August 15, 2017
I'm a Swedish lawyer with no expertise in Danish law. Our legal systems have a shared history however. While I don't speak Danish our languages are largely mutually intelligible.
As I understand it, Madsen was initially held in remand on suspicion of "uagtsomt manddrab", which translates to involuntary manslaughter. Danish media report that Madsen is now suspected of "uagtsomt manddrab under særligt skærpende omstændigheder under særligt skærpende omstændigheder", which I'd literally translate as "involuntary manslaughter with especially aggravating circumstances"; in other words aggravated manslaughter I guess.
In Danish law however intentional murder is called just "manddrab", though the term can literally be translated as manslaughter. Madsen may well be prosecuted for murder if the prosecutor believe that they can prove intent.
posted by delegeferenda at 2:06 PM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
As I understand it, Madsen was initially held in remand on suspicion of "uagtsomt manddrab", which translates to involuntary manslaughter. Danish media report that Madsen is now suspected of "uagtsomt manddrab under særligt skærpende omstændigheder under særligt skærpende omstændigheder", which I'd literally translate as "involuntary manslaughter with especially aggravating circumstances"; in other words aggravated manslaughter I guess.
In Danish law however intentional murder is called just "manddrab", though the term can literally be translated as manslaughter. Madsen may well be prosecuted for murder if the prosecutor believe that they can prove intent.
posted by delegeferenda at 2:06 PM on August 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
I read something today that indicated that the police have a strong case for conviction even without finding the body. Sadly, at this point no one expects to find Ms Wall alive.
There is a lot more which I won't post just now because I feel it would violate a lot of MeFi rules and also normal decency. I'll write as soon as there is something fit to post.
posted by mumimor at 3:08 PM on August 16, 2017
There is a lot more which I won't post just now because I feel it would violate a lot of MeFi rules and also normal decency. I'll write as soon as there is something fit to post.
posted by mumimor at 3:08 PM on August 16, 2017
Today Madsen has admitted that Ms Wall died in the submarine and claims he "buried her at sea".
posted by mumimor at 3:12 AM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 3:12 AM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sruthi Gottipati at the Guardian: My friend Kim Wall's disappearance in Denmark shows: female journalists face danger everywhere
Tonight, a headless torso has been found in the water near Copenhagen. It has not yet been identified and may be the remains of a victim of some other terrible murder, but Denmark is small, with few missing people, and there are more and more indications that this is a horrendous crime.
We haven't heard or read a lot about Kim Wall as an active, brilliant journalist, in the media reports her role is entirely that of the victim. Even as it becomes more and more clear that something violent and criminal has happened there are still headlines using Madsen's language* and articles describing him half-admiringly as a crazy inventor.
I've written at least six rants about why this upsets me so much (apart from the fact that I am a normal human and horrified by what happened), and deleted them all because there is a potential for all sorts of projection and digression away from the fact which is that a young woman was killed by a man she trusted to not kill her. Actually I just tried again and gave up again. I hope someone will be able to write about this when we know more.
*"buried at sea"? WTF, it's more like killed and dumped.
posted by mumimor at 2:25 PM on August 21, 2017 [8 favorites]
Tonight, a headless torso has been found in the water near Copenhagen. It has not yet been identified and may be the remains of a victim of some other terrible murder, but Denmark is small, with few missing people, and there are more and more indications that this is a horrendous crime.
We haven't heard or read a lot about Kim Wall as an active, brilliant journalist, in the media reports her role is entirely that of the victim. Even as it becomes more and more clear that something violent and criminal has happened there are still headlines using Madsen's language* and articles describing him half-admiringly as a crazy inventor.
I've written at least six rants about why this upsets me so much (apart from the fact that I am a normal human and horrified by what happened), and deleted them all because there is a potential for all sorts of projection and digression away from the fact which is that a young woman was killed by a man she trusted to not kill her. Actually I just tried again and gave up again. I hope someone will be able to write about this when we know more.
*"buried at sea"? WTF, it's more like killed and dumped.
posted by mumimor at 2:25 PM on August 21, 2017 [8 favorites]
So he took her out alone in the sub where she couldn't escape? Fuck, how horrible.
posted by nicebookrack at 4:12 AM on August 22, 2017
posted by nicebookrack at 4:12 AM on August 22, 2017
Ugh, why dismember her if was going to dump the body at sea? People do that because gettting rid of a whole human body is hard, but he didn't have that problem. This is getting more fucked up.
posted by rodlymight at 12:03 PM on August 22, 2017
posted by rodlymight at 12:03 PM on August 22, 2017
(grim thoughts warning) Well, it hasn't been identified as Wall yet, and it could have been a propeller, but one possible reason is that torsos are the most bouyant part of the body both before and after death, and it's hard to sink a body and keep it down unless you came prepared with a proper shroud and weights. So if you want to minimize the chance of say, defense wounds or head injury being discovered...
posted by tavella at 12:56 PM on August 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 12:56 PM on August 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Now the torso is identified as Ms Wall's through DNA testing.
tavella is probably right, he was trying to hide evidence of his crime. I wonder if this find will make the prosecutor harden their claim, now he can't really get away with saying there was an accident and a "burial at sea" anymore.
posted by mumimor at 11:28 PM on August 22, 2017
tavella is probably right, he was trying to hide evidence of his crime. I wonder if this find will make the prosecutor harden their claim, now he can't really get away with saying there was an accident and a "burial at sea" anymore.
posted by mumimor at 11:28 PM on August 22, 2017
The Danish press coverage continues to disgust me with its insistence on fawning over the man: "Flawed genius" - "Troubled, but brilliant" - "What did she do to make him snap? Experts give their verdict" - "Why did she go with him on her own? A dangerous decision that cost her dearly" - "His amazing life so far". It is horrific - and the case is horrific enough on its own.
posted by kariebookish at 5:26 AM on August 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by kariebookish at 5:26 AM on August 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
eew, kariebookish, somehow I have avoided the worst of that. But I have made a couple of comments on FB reminding journalists that he is most probably a murderer and she is an accomplished woman, as have other feminist friends, and I feel I can see a difference now. But only within the last 24 hours
posted by mumimor at 6:13 AM on August 23, 2017
posted by mumimor at 6:13 AM on August 23, 2017
It's not just in Denmark, the NYT headlines have been weirdly lowballing it too. Nor is it just the press, who might at least have legal reasons to not state the obvious. But it's been 99 percent likely from the moment this story hit English-language papers what happened: he murdered her and hid the body. The fact set (she was with him and was now missing, security cams show he lied about dropping her off, and he tried to destroy evidence) was extremely clear. Yet you had people in this very thread saying things like "barely gave enough to even infer a crime had been committed" and "we don't even have a plausible theory".
posted by tavella at 7:41 AM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 7:41 AM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Per the snopes article about it, the body appears to have been deliberately dismembered and there were attempts to weight the torso down.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:31 AM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 8:31 AM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Upthread, I was objecting to the use of the word "murder" on the basis that it was premature and inaccurate for NPR to have used it when they did and how they did. While I still believe that was the case at the time, it's pretty clear that, to say the least, things have changed, and that objection no longer applies.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:06 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Sys Rq at 1:06 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
The charge is being officially changed to murder according to police, and there's now the additional charge of "usømmelig omgang med lig" presumably for mutilating Wall after her death. Fuck Madsen. Kim Wall was worth a hundred of him.
posted by Dysk at 2:10 AM on August 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:10 AM on August 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
For a split-second, I almost wished they had the death penalty in Scandinavia.
posted by acb at 6:09 AM on August 26, 2017
posted by acb at 6:09 AM on August 26, 2017
Police are now searching the sub for potential secret chambers.
posted by tavella at 2:04 PM on August 30, 2017
posted by tavella at 2:04 PM on August 30, 2017
Danish media are reporting that only the expected cavities were found in the vessel.
posted by Dysk at 2:56 PM on August 30, 2017
posted by Dysk at 2:56 PM on August 30, 2017
Sean Gallagher/Ars Technica: Danish U-boat commander: Hatch slipped from fingers, bashed reporter’s head. Kim Wall's death was accident, Peter Madsen maintains—and burial at sea is tradition.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:37 PM on September 6, 2017
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:37 PM on September 6, 2017
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posted by tavella at 1:12 PM on August 14, 2017 [4 favorites]