There's a storm coming in
August 23, 2017 9:44 AM Subscribe
“It’s in your nature to destroy yourselves” - Terminator 2: Judgment Day as a movie obsessed with nuclear apocalypse.
The playground scene really nailed the fear of the time. It washed over you at unexpected moments.
A fortnight ago I bought iodine.
posted by hawthorne at 10:10 AM on August 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
A fortnight ago I bought iodine.
posted by hawthorne at 10:10 AM on August 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
The nuclear holocaust scene in T2 is still the best I've seen for absolute horror.
Perhaps to update it for modern times, they should replace the words NO FATE with NO TRUMP.
posted by Nelson at 10:20 AM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
Perhaps to update it for modern times, they should replace the words NO FATE with NO TRUMP.
posted by Nelson at 10:20 AM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
“It’s in your nature to destroy yourselves”
For kids saturated in Regan-era dread, this was a truism, the natural state of humanity. This movie and things like Red Dawn and Mad Max... those didn't seem like unpossible futures. In particular, that playground scene. It was straight up The Day After or Threads. Visceral. What tomorrow could literally be.
The "end of history"---in the process of still happening as this movie came out---really meant the passing of the cold-war nuclear threat out of public consciousness. But in 1991, it still had enough of a hold for Cameron to be able to yank everyone's strings hard.
posted by bonehead at 10:27 AM on August 23, 2017 [10 favorites]
For kids saturated in Regan-era dread, this was a truism, the natural state of humanity. This movie and things like Red Dawn and Mad Max... those didn't seem like unpossible futures. In particular, that playground scene. It was straight up The Day After or Threads. Visceral. What tomorrow could literally be.
The "end of history"---in the process of still happening as this movie came out---really meant the passing of the cold-war nuclear threat out of public consciousness. But in 1991, it still had enough of a hold for Cameron to be able to yank everyone's strings hard.
posted by bonehead at 10:27 AM on August 23, 2017 [10 favorites]
I watched this first at 10 and had obsessive nightmares and anxiety about nuclear blasts for a good year-plus.
posted by glaucon at 10:30 AM on August 23, 2017
posted by glaucon at 10:30 AM on August 23, 2017
I have a friend who whenever we saw the end of "The Terminator," that scene where Sarah Connor is looking off into the distance, would say "there's a bad matte coming." And it was so, so true.
posted by chavenet at 10:36 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 10:36 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
The music for this film is also absolutely perfect. It contains the entirety of the emotions explained in this article in six notes and some metal-bashing.
posted by StephenF at 10:37 AM on August 23, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by StephenF at 10:37 AM on August 23, 2017 [9 favorites]
The first Terminator is probably my all time favorite movie. I LOVE IT SO MUCH. I love the second one almost as much. (Aliens is in my top five as well. I love me some action-era James Cameron.)
I was about five or six when first Terminator came out. I've had nuclear war nightmares ever since. I was almost relieved to see the scene in the second movie because I felt like, "YEAH. NOW YOU ALL KNOW HOW I FEEL."
This bit struck me: "Sarah’s revulsion at a world of men who will eventually destroy the human race." I always like that bit, her rant about men not knowing what it's like to create life. It's a rare bit of maternal softness from her. She's been rejecting John's attempts at affection and closeness, I think to maintain her militaristic facade.
I HAVE A LOT OF FEELINGS ABOUT THESE MOVIES.
posted by Aquifer at 10:42 AM on August 23, 2017 [15 favorites]
I was about five or six when first Terminator came out. I've had nuclear war nightmares ever since. I was almost relieved to see the scene in the second movie because I felt like, "YEAH. NOW YOU ALL KNOW HOW I FEEL."
This bit struck me: "Sarah’s revulsion at a world of men who will eventually destroy the human race." I always like that bit, her rant about men not knowing what it's like to create life. It's a rare bit of maternal softness from her. She's been rejecting John's attempts at affection and closeness, I think to maintain her militaristic facade.
I HAVE A LOT OF FEELINGS ABOUT THESE MOVIES.
posted by Aquifer at 10:42 AM on August 23, 2017 [15 favorites]
This movie was the one and only good use "Bad to the Bone" in a film and I will fight anyone who says differently.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:43 AM on August 23, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 10:43 AM on August 23, 2017 [9 favorites]
entropicamericana: "This movie was the one and only good use "Bad to the Bone" in a film and I will fight anyone who says differently."
Maybe you didn't see Christine?
posted by chavenet at 10:45 AM on August 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
Maybe you didn't see Christine?
posted by chavenet at 10:45 AM on August 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
oh crap, i forgot about that. okay, i will make an allowance for Christine.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:53 AM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 10:53 AM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
an engorged wet dream of macho fetish objects.
Oh god yes this review does not disappoint :-)
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:00 AM on August 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh god yes this review does not disappoint :-)
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:00 AM on August 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
The "end of history"---in the process of still happening as this movie came out---really meant the passing of the cold-war nuclear threat out of public consciousness. But in 1991, it still had enough of a hold for Cameron to be able to yank everyone's strings hard.
The movie itself made a nod in that direction: "Why fire them at the Russians? Aren't they our friends now?" "Because Skynet knew the Russian counter response would wipe out the resistance here." So the human, geo-political situation of 1991 is acknowledged, along with the fact that it doesn't matter. The bald fact of "it's in our nature to destroy ourselves" being taken advantage of.
posted by nubs at 11:03 AM on August 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
The movie itself made a nod in that direction: "Why fire them at the Russians? Aren't they our friends now?" "Because Skynet knew the Russian counter response would wipe out the resistance here." So the human, geo-political situation of 1991 is acknowledged, along with the fact that it doesn't matter. The bald fact of "it's in our nature to destroy ourselves" being taken advantage of.
posted by nubs at 11:03 AM on August 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
I'm sure you could convince my head otherwise eventually, but my heart will always think of T2 as a perfect movie based on how I felt when I was a 16 year old seeing it in the theater for the first time, how I felt when I saw it in the theater again (maybe the first time I'd ever seen a movie in the theater twice and certainly the first time I'd done it with my money), how I felt the 100 times or so I watched it on VHS, or how I felt when I watched it for the first time in a decade or so in my early 30s and thought "wow, this holds up."
That I loved it so much somehow doesn't square at all with the little-kid-now-adult who STILL has nuclear holocaust nightmares (and has always, not just this year) that started when he was 4 or 5. Or maybe it makes all the sense in the world.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:21 AM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
That I loved it so much somehow doesn't square at all with the little-kid-now-adult who STILL has nuclear holocaust nightmares (and has always, not just this year) that started when he was 4 or 5. Or maybe it makes all the sense in the world.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:21 AM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also miniguns are cool.
posted by Artw at 11:23 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:23 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
I watched this recently and was surprised how well it has held up, especially how much they were pushing CGI at the time.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 11:28 AM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Ogre Lawless at 11:28 AM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
Cameron had the chance to rework any bit of it for the 3D release, and he went with this.
posted by Artw at 11:32 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:32 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
i'm surprised ndt didn't find some minor astronomical flaw in the film for jim to fix too
posted by entropicamericana at 11:52 AM on August 23, 2017
posted by entropicamericana at 11:52 AM on August 23, 2017
That's cos liquid metal assassins from the future are totes real.
posted by Artw at 11:53 AM on August 23, 2017
posted by Artw at 11:53 AM on August 23, 2017
When I watched this film with my young son a while back (he was getting old enough to not have to worry about nightmare material and old enough to enjoy the whole time-honored campy Arnold "I'll be back" cultural meme complex) I found myself holding back sobs during the playground scene. I had sorta-kinda forgotten this is actually a film about the end of the world. It feels different, watching with your kids, than it did all those years ago watching with a bunch of stoned smart-ass friends..
posted by anguspodgorny at 12:27 PM on August 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by anguspodgorny at 12:27 PM on August 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
The "end of history"---in the process of still happening as this movie came out---really meant the passing of the cold-war nuclear threat out of public consciousness. But in 1991, it still had enough of a hold for Cameron to be able to yank everyone's strings hard.
This gets it exactly right, I think, but I'd add that the story also pivots on the optimism of the time, the feeling that, just possibly, we'd "won"; that Judgement Day could be averted. T2 deftly keeps those two attitudes in tension and is the better for it.
I'd love to see it on a big screen again, but 3D gives me headaches.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:27 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
This gets it exactly right, I think, but I'd add that the story also pivots on the optimism of the time, the feeling that, just possibly, we'd "won"; that Judgement Day could be averted. T2 deftly keeps those two attitudes in tension and is the better for it.
I'd love to see it on a big screen again, but 3D gives me headaches.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:27 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
I hate 3d movies but I might make an exception to see T2 in a theater.
posted by octothorpe at 12:28 PM on August 23, 2017
posted by octothorpe at 12:28 PM on August 23, 2017
Meanwhile, I'll be finishing Command and Control on my upcoming vacation because it's surprisingly enjoyable. Really!
That book took me from 'well obviously we need to get rid of nuclear weapons, but it'll have to be done by negotiation in due course' to 'We have to get rid of our nuclear bombs RIGHT NOW. It's just pure luck that one's not gone off by accident before now!!!'
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:30 PM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
That book took me from 'well obviously we need to get rid of nuclear weapons, but it'll have to be done by negotiation in due course' to 'We have to get rid of our nuclear bombs RIGHT NOW. It's just pure luck that one's not gone off by accident before now!!!'
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:30 PM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
Cameron had the chance to rework any bit of it for the 3D release, and he went with this.
posted by Artw at 11:32 AM on August 23 [1 favorite +] [!]
One thing that can be said for James Cameron: he's no George Lucas.
posted by chavenet at 12:37 PM on August 23, 2017
posted by Artw at 11:32 AM on August 23 [1 favorite +] [!]
One thing that can be said for James Cameron: he's no George Lucas.
posted by chavenet at 12:37 PM on August 23, 2017
Cameron had the chance to rework any bit of it for the 3D release, and he went with this.
Heck of a buried lede in that article, down in an update. Apparently, there were a couple more similar "bug fixes", including:
Heck of a buried lede in that article, down in an update. Apparently, there were a couple more similar "bug fixes", including:
CGIing over the parts where Schwarzenegger’s stunt double was clearly standing in for him and removing a tiny unintentional glimpse of, uh, Robert Patrick’s scrotum.posted by tobascodagama at 12:39 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Cameron had the chance to rework any bit of it for the 3D release, and he went with this.
posted by Artw at 11:32 AM on August 23 [1 favorite +] [!]
Dang it, I love those kinds of corny errors. Hell, Army of Darkness is a film composed ONLY of those corny errors. Keep the windshield in!
posted by Existential Dread at 12:39 PM on August 23, 2017
posted by Artw at 11:32 AM on August 23 [1 favorite +] [!]
Dang it, I love those kinds of corny errors. Hell, Army of Darkness is a film composed ONLY of those corny errors. Keep the windshield in!
posted by Existential Dread at 12:39 PM on August 23, 2017
There oughta be more scrotums in apocalyptic sci-fi dramas, I say
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:41 PM on August 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:41 PM on August 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
[stannis] Scrota. [/stannis]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:49 PM on August 23, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:49 PM on August 23, 2017 [8 favorites]
Mad Max had Scabrous Scrotus, king of Gas town.
posted by Nelson at 12:58 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 12:58 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
I watched this first at 10 and had obsessive nightmares and anxiety about nuclear blasts for a good year-plus.
I had already been having nightmares about nuclear blasts for five years by the time this film came out, and anxiety about nuclear war for another ten years or so before that.
I had utterly no idea that the playground scene was coming when I saw this in the theater for the first time - but suddenly there it was, my own recurring nightmares somehow taken out of my head and projected onto a 50-foot screen in technicolor and THX sound. I scrambled across five people's laps and ran straight up the aisle out to the lobby, where I huddled on a bench, twitching and hyperventilating for a good 10 minutes after.
It was a full year before I could see it again. Any time any of my friends rented it and we had a group screening that was usually the time I would excuse myself to either go to the kitchen for a soda or go to the bathroom or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:30 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
I had already been having nightmares about nuclear blasts for five years by the time this film came out, and anxiety about nuclear war for another ten years or so before that.
I had utterly no idea that the playground scene was coming when I saw this in the theater for the first time - but suddenly there it was, my own recurring nightmares somehow taken out of my head and projected onto a 50-foot screen in technicolor and THX sound. I scrambled across five people's laps and ran straight up the aisle out to the lobby, where I huddled on a bench, twitching and hyperventilating for a good 10 minutes after.
It was a full year before I could see it again. Any time any of my friends rented it and we had a group screening that was usually the time I would excuse myself to either go to the kitchen for a soda or go to the bathroom or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:30 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I notice that windshield error every time, but I would have left it in. When it falls off in the wide shot and then it cuts to the shot of Patrick driving, he looks kinda annoyed knocking it down at it as if to say, "Dammit! You fell off already! Fall down and stay down!"
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 1:57 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 1:57 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Keep the windshield in!
What has always bugged me about that scene is not the windshield, but two other things:
First, John is stupid to just sit there and watch the truck come after him. He should've been gunning it to continue opening up the distance.
Second, the nose dive the truck takes into the ground. Like, I don't think that thing should be driveable after that.
posted by nubs at 2:00 PM on August 23, 2017
What has always bugged me about that scene is not the windshield, but two other things:
First, John is stupid to just sit there and watch the truck come after him. He should've been gunning it to continue opening up the distance.
Second, the nose dive the truck takes into the ground. Like, I don't think that thing should be driveable after that.
posted by nubs at 2:00 PM on August 23, 2017
Second, the nose dive the truck takes into the ground. Like, I don't think that thing should be driveable after that.
I'll have to watch it again, but my recollection is that the bumper crumples up into the truck and they cut away juuuuust before it becomes obvious the damn thing is totalled.
posted by Existential Dread at 2:11 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'll have to watch it again, but my recollection is that the bumper crumples up into the truck and they cut away juuuuust before it becomes obvious the damn thing is totalled.
posted by Existential Dread at 2:11 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
You could say the same thing about almost any car chase in a movie or on TV. No vehicle could survive 10% of what most cars in movies do. My tire blew out at 25 MPH when I hit a pothole a few years ago but somehow cars in movies can fall twenty feet and keep going.
posted by octothorpe at 2:18 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 2:18 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
Oh, absolutely - what stuck out for me in T2 was that it seemed really obvious that the truck would have been totalled by the move, whereas most films are a bit more subtle about hiding it.
posted by nubs at 2:20 PM on August 23, 2017
posted by nubs at 2:20 PM on August 23, 2017
I'd just like to say that the day the world was supposed to end in nuclear apocalypse in this movie was actually the day of my Bat Mitzvah, a piece of knowledge I held as a point of pride, and also a reassurance that things couldn't go *that* badly.
(Also, I remember not being able to sleep as a small child, and coming downstairs to the TV room at night only to witness the playground scene, and only the playground scene. My dad didn't know I was standing there watching it, but it certainly didn't help my insomnia.)
posted by ilana at 3:06 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
(Also, I remember not being able to sleep as a small child, and coming downstairs to the TV room at night only to witness the playground scene, and only the playground scene. My dad didn't know I was standing there watching it, but it certainly didn't help my insomnia.)
posted by ilana at 3:06 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
I was always surprised by the truck gag because in such an otherwise thorough film they let it sort of plummet nose-first instead of rigging it in some way so that it would appear to land, however illogically, on its chassis. I would say that bothered me more than the minor windshield issue, in fact.
T2 was thus easy to see as image rehabilitation
Yeah, it was about Ahnold being a big star now to some extent, but T2 was also part of an ongoing conversation about violence in movies, something noted by Ebert in his contemporary review and highlighted in some other coverage as a philosophical stance. (This would be even more apparent in Schwarzenegger's next blockbuster outing, the cult flop Last Action Hero, where there's even a line about what you can do in a PG-13 movie.)
posted by dhartung at 4:42 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
T2 was thus easy to see as image rehabilitation
Yeah, it was about Ahnold being a big star now to some extent, but T2 was also part of an ongoing conversation about violence in movies, something noted by Ebert in his contemporary review and highlighted in some other coverage as a philosophical stance. (This would be even more apparent in Schwarzenegger's next blockbuster outing, the cult flop Last Action Hero, where there's even a line about what you can do in a PG-13 movie.)
posted by dhartung at 4:42 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Matt Singer (Filmspotting SVU, Screencrush) on why Terminator 2 still holds up.
posted by octothorpe at 4:43 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 4:43 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
(One thing I do really wish about the film, though, was that the marketing at the time had not made it clear that Arnie was a good guy in this one; the opening twenty minutes would be so much more awesome if you aren't sure)
Came here to say that, it's very well and carefully constructed to not give you many clues, but they comprehensively spoiled it in interviews, iirc. They were simpler times.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:32 PM on August 23, 2017
Came here to say that, it's very well and carefully constructed to not give you many clues, but they comprehensively spoiled it in interviews, iirc. They were simpler times.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:32 PM on August 23, 2017
Artw: Also miniguns are cool.
As far as the GE M-134 minigun goes in films, it's role in T2 is only a "special guest appearance," but in Predator, it's arguably a "supporting cast member."
Nelson: The nuclear holocaust scene in T2 is still the best I've seen for absolute horror.
For me, while it certainly is an impressive sequence, the true horrifying aspects of it kind of take a back seat to the spectacle of it all.
While that scene would still rank high on the list of those kinds of sequences, I think the last few seconds of the 1964 classic Fail-Safe ranks at or very near the top. Simply because of how it lands a sudden, unexpected, mentally jarring finishing stroke to the audience after nearly 2 hours of building tension, that just leaves you to pick up your own mess of thoughts and emotions afterwards.
posted by chambers at 6:07 PM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
As far as the GE M-134 minigun goes in films, it's role in T2 is only a "special guest appearance," but in Predator, it's arguably a "supporting cast member."
Nelson: The nuclear holocaust scene in T2 is still the best I've seen for absolute horror.
For me, while it certainly is an impressive sequence, the true horrifying aspects of it kind of take a back seat to the spectacle of it all.
While that scene would still rank high on the list of those kinds of sequences, I think the last few seconds of the 1964 classic Fail-Safe ranks at or very near the top. Simply because of how it lands a sudden, unexpected, mentally jarring finishing stroke to the audience after nearly 2 hours of building tension, that just leaves you to pick up your own mess of thoughts and emotions afterwards.
posted by chambers at 6:07 PM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
Actually, one of my favourite bits in T2 is the sequence where you first see Arnie from Sarah's point of view. It's a great piece of storytelling. Even though we already know (from his dramatic rescue of John) that the T-800 is a good guy, Sarah doesn't.
Everything about that sequence communicates her sheer terror in that moment, where the thing she's been afraid of all these years finally happens but she's in a place where she doesn't have access to any of the resources she's been squirreling away for this eventuality. Except, as the audience knows but she does not, the thing she's afraid of not only isn't the real threat, she needs its help in order to survive this time. The dramatic irony really enhances that scene.
John gets a somewhat similar moment, but it doesn't last nearly as long. Maybe 10-15 seconds from seeing the T-800 to realising that it's there to protect him? Anyway, yeah, I don't think it's all that important to the film for the T-800's "good guy" status to be concealed.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:12 PM on August 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
Everything about that sequence communicates her sheer terror in that moment, where the thing she's been afraid of all these years finally happens but she's in a place where she doesn't have access to any of the resources she's been squirreling away for this eventuality. Except, as the audience knows but she does not, the thing she's afraid of not only isn't the real threat, she needs its help in order to survive this time. The dramatic irony really enhances that scene.
John gets a somewhat similar moment, but it doesn't last nearly as long. Maybe 10-15 seconds from seeing the T-800 to realising that it's there to protect him? Anyway, yeah, I don't think it's all that important to the film for the T-800's "good guy" status to be concealed.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:12 PM on August 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
What has always bugged me about that scene is not the windshield, but two other things:
What annoyed me was : how many gears that little dirt bike got ? He upshifts like 76 times.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:11 PM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
What annoyed me was : how many gears that little dirt bike got ? He upshifts like 76 times.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:11 PM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
In the 90s I read THE FACE, and I think it was Steve Beard who wrote their review of T2. He said that his wife might have been the only person in the theatre who didn't know that Arnie was the good guy this time, and described what it was to sit next to someone watching the film cold.
posted by kandinski at 2:23 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by kandinski at 2:23 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Here's a promo that was made for video stores to encourage them to buy lots of copies. At the beginning, it has Robert Patrick talking right at the camera and being technically perfect. At the end, it has a dramatization of a dad who refuses to stop using the powers of VHS to pause and rewind the film, so his family forcibly takes away the remote control. (I remember trying to buy a VHS copy of T2 from the video store when it was brand new, and being told that it cost $180.)
The video for You Could Be Mine is still one of my favorites. Such good editing, and then the funny ending. Here's Arnold, Axl, and Slash talking about meeting.
I already have my tickets for the rerelease and I am hyped!! I didn't get to see this movie in theaters back then, so I'm just really excited to get to do that now.
posted by heatvision at 4:26 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
The video for You Could Be Mine is still one of my favorites. Such good editing, and then the funny ending. Here's Arnold, Axl, and Slash talking about meeting.
I already have my tickets for the rerelease and I am hyped!! I didn't get to see this movie in theaters back then, so I'm just really excited to get to do that now.
posted by heatvision at 4:26 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Great article. And it reminds me a lot why I am so fond of Terminator 3, although I'm aware people have some problems with it. But at first it seems like its just so different from T and T2. It has an almost kind of sweet and funny vibe at first with a shy Nick Stahl and his meet-cute with Claire Danes, and then it's so 90s with the PoMo bit of Arnie getting his clothes from a male stripper, the female terminator and Arnie kind of run down and paunchy.
You start to think everything's going to be ok and then BAM, the ethos of the two previous films comes to the fore and you realise you've kind of been had. It's a super brutal ending that's kind of a twist even though the whole thing is kind of a John Conner origins story, and I love it.
posted by low_horrible_immoral at 6:40 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
You start to think everything's going to be ok and then BAM, the ethos of the two previous films comes to the fore and you realise you've kind of been had. It's a super brutal ending that's kind of a twist even though the whole thing is kind of a John Conner origins story, and I love it.
posted by low_horrible_immoral at 6:40 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also the T3 discs have the deleted Sergeant Candy bit.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:11 AM on August 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:11 AM on August 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm not keen on T3 as a movie, but the ending really is pretty brilliant. It keeps with the theme of fate that runs through the other films while also explaining (but not overly so) how the fuck this one random kid from LA ends up leading the resistance against Skynet.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:47 AM on August 24, 2017
posted by tobascodagama at 7:47 AM on August 24, 2017
I still haven't seen any of the films other than the first two.
posted by octothorpe at 7:51 AM on August 24, 2017
posted by octothorpe at 7:51 AM on August 24, 2017
I still haven't seen any of the films other than the first two
You haven't missed much, I think. T3 I remember as being adequate - it certainly had a return to the key theme of humanity being inclined to destroy itself and the idea that the future was inevitable; the actions of the past might change the hows and whens, but Skynet was coming. But I felt like it was trying too hard to one up itself - trying to give us something better than the T-1000 with the Terminatrix (and I don't even recall what "features" she had that were more threatening, beyond being female and dressed in tight clothing) and give us action scenes that had amazing staging but lacked the emotional punch of what we got in T1 & T2.
Terminator: Salvation was just flat, I think. They took away a lot of the magic by setting it in the post-Judgement Day future; there's something about keeping what exactly that future looks like to flashbacks and descriptions that makes it more potent. And all I remember clearly is a scene where a giant robot terminator is chasing people around an abandoned gas station and thinking "Hm. Honestly, the trick here is miniaturization - if Skynet can create something like the T-1000, surely it could create nanobot swarms that could get everywhere and eradicate everything; or, move away from machinery and go to biology - engineer a couple of good viruses to wipe out humanity." I think it's a bad sign for a film when I, as the audience, start thinking about (a) how poor the villain's plan/tactics are and (b) come up with alternative plans. I mean, I do that with lots of films over time afterwards, but generally not while I'm watching the gorram thing.
Terminator: Genesys is a hot mess, but I had fun watching it - probably because I went in expecting a hot mess, and that's exactly what I got. Lots of nice touches, though, including a cynical Sarah Connor who knew what was coming and had spent years preparing for Reese to show up in the 1980s - though she didn't know Kyle was her baby daddy. If they had actors capable of what Linda Hamilton & Michael Biehn brought to the parts in the film, I might have been able to forgive more of the hot mess.
Anyways, coming back to T2: There has always been two huge plotholes in the film for me, both arising out of knowledge/events in the Terminator. First, Kyle "I came across time for you, Sarah" Reese states that they had won in the future - they had smashed Skynet's defenses, and the Terminator was the desperate hail Mary play. Winning the fight in the past sealed the victory in the future. So, how and where did Skynet find the T-1000 and a second time machine?
Now, I can handwave that one away with assuming Skynet had proper backups in place. But the second one is harder and it is about the limits of the time machine; it only sends back living material. The T-800 could come through because it is living flesh over metal endoskeleton, and obviously Reese isn't a problem. But the T-1000 is liquid metal. How does it come through?
posted by nubs at 8:41 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
You haven't missed much, I think. T3 I remember as being adequate - it certainly had a return to the key theme of humanity being inclined to destroy itself and the idea that the future was inevitable; the actions of the past might change the hows and whens, but Skynet was coming. But I felt like it was trying too hard to one up itself - trying to give us something better than the T-1000 with the Terminatrix (and I don't even recall what "features" she had that were more threatening, beyond being female and dressed in tight clothing) and give us action scenes that had amazing staging but lacked the emotional punch of what we got in T1 & T2.
Terminator: Salvation was just flat, I think. They took away a lot of the magic by setting it in the post-Judgement Day future; there's something about keeping what exactly that future looks like to flashbacks and descriptions that makes it more potent. And all I remember clearly is a scene where a giant robot terminator is chasing people around an abandoned gas station and thinking "Hm. Honestly, the trick here is miniaturization - if Skynet can create something like the T-1000, surely it could create nanobot swarms that could get everywhere and eradicate everything; or, move away from machinery and go to biology - engineer a couple of good viruses to wipe out humanity." I think it's a bad sign for a film when I, as the audience, start thinking about (a) how poor the villain's plan/tactics are and (b) come up with alternative plans. I mean, I do that with lots of films over time afterwards, but generally not while I'm watching the gorram thing.
Terminator: Genesys is a hot mess, but I had fun watching it - probably because I went in expecting a hot mess, and that's exactly what I got. Lots of nice touches, though, including a cynical Sarah Connor who knew what was coming and had spent years preparing for Reese to show up in the 1980s - though she didn't know Kyle was her baby daddy. If they had actors capable of what Linda Hamilton & Michael Biehn brought to the parts in the film, I might have been able to forgive more of the hot mess.
Anyways, coming back to T2: There has always been two huge plotholes in the film for me, both arising out of knowledge/events in the Terminator. First, Kyle "I came across time for you, Sarah" Reese states that they had won in the future - they had smashed Skynet's defenses, and the Terminator was the desperate hail Mary play. Winning the fight in the past sealed the victory in the future. So, how and where did Skynet find the T-1000 and a second time machine?
Now, I can handwave that one away with assuming Skynet had proper backups in place. But the second one is harder and it is about the limits of the time machine; it only sends back living material. The T-800 could come through because it is living flesh over metal endoskeleton, and obviously Reese isn't a problem. But the T-1000 is liquid metal. How does it come through?
posted by nubs at 8:41 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's really well explained in Frank Miller's Robocop Bs Terminator. No really.
posted by Artw at 9:04 AM on August 24, 2017
posted by Artw at 9:04 AM on August 24, 2017
Also the T3 discs have the deleted Sergeant Candy bit.
It cannot be described, only experienced.
posted by Artw at 9:05 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
It cannot be described, only experienced.
posted by Artw at 9:05 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's really well explained in Frank Miller's Robocop Bs Terminator. No really.
I may have to track that down, then. It's one of those niggling questions that has always stuck with me.
posted by nubs at 9:09 AM on August 24, 2017
Should have mentioned that the Walt Simonson art is fantastic.
posted by Artw at 9:15 AM on August 24, 2017
posted by Artw at 9:15 AM on August 24, 2017
and I don't even recall what "features" she had that were more threatening, beyond being female and dressed in tight clothing
Something about controlling other electronic devices, I think?
posted by tobascodagama at 9:27 AM on August 24, 2017
Something about controlling other electronic devices, I think?
posted by tobascodagama at 9:27 AM on August 24, 2017
Also, if we're talking about post-T2 Terminator franchise stuff, everybody here should do themselves a favour and find a way to watch The Sarah Connor Chronicles. It's better than it had any right to be.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:29 AM on August 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 9:29 AM on August 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
We watched T2 the other night; it really does hold up well. The only effect that looks clunky these days is Arnie's missing arm in the final scenes: they're mostly shot tight to avoid showing it much, but in the few wide shots it's very obvious that he has his real arm under his jacket and the prosthetic on top. It'd all be green-sleeve-replace-it-in-post these days.
But the T-1000 is liquid metal. How does it come through?
I've always mentally handwaved this as "well, the T-1000 is an advanced model, they probably had commensurate advances in time travel technology". Either that or its mimicry is good enough to fool the machinery too.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:30 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
But the T-1000 is liquid metal. How does it come through?
I've always mentally handwaved this as "well, the T-1000 is an advanced model, they probably had commensurate advances in time travel technology". Either that or its mimicry is good enough to fool the machinery too.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:30 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
So, how and where did Skynet find the T-1000 and a second time machine?
Why would it need to? It could have sent the T-1000 back first as the primary mission: kill John Connor before he's a threat. The T-800 could be the backup mission, a last-ditch hail mary with lower-grade tech. Reese doesn't need to know that, or to know about the T-1000. John Connor knows that Reese didn't seem to know about it, so he just doesn't tell him, just like he doesn't tell Reese that he's going to get it on with Sarah Connor.
Alternately, after the T-800 fails that shunts them into a new timeline. Just because a different Skynet sent back a T-800 doesn't mean that that Skynet will ever exist though presumably it will have records of the original incursion. The Skynet that emerges from Dyson's work is more advanced, so it can build a T-1000. It could be that the only terminator that that version of Skynet sends back is the T-1000. Rinse and repeat for the Kristanna-Lokken-ator.
I could bore everyone with my ideas for how to wrap up the movies and series with a neat bow but I won't. But I could.
But the T-1000 is liquid metal. How does it come through?
Obviously liquid metal is close enough to living for government work.
That said, t it would have been cool if the T-1000's appearance in T2 had been the usual light show and then... there's a cow.
and I don't even recall what "features" she had that were more threatening, beyond being female and dressed in tight clothing
She's a combat chassis covered in metal-goo, which allowed her to carry advanced weapons back from the future inside her. Presumably a T-800 could have had built-in weapons but they'd have destroyed its skin when they fired and also each Skynet is probably learning from the Skynets that came "before." Also she had nanobugs that let her control machinery. Like making cars that don't have automatic steering steer themselves sooooooo ascii shrug.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:31 AM on August 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Why would it need to? It could have sent the T-1000 back first as the primary mission: kill John Connor before he's a threat. The T-800 could be the backup mission, a last-ditch hail mary with lower-grade tech. Reese doesn't need to know that, or to know about the T-1000. John Connor knows that Reese didn't seem to know about it, so he just doesn't tell him, just like he doesn't tell Reese that he's going to get it on with Sarah Connor.
Alternately, after the T-800 fails that shunts them into a new timeline. Just because a different Skynet sent back a T-800 doesn't mean that that Skynet will ever exist though presumably it will have records of the original incursion. The Skynet that emerges from Dyson's work is more advanced, so it can build a T-1000. It could be that the only terminator that that version of Skynet sends back is the T-1000. Rinse and repeat for the Kristanna-Lokken-ator.
I could bore everyone with my ideas for how to wrap up the movies and series with a neat bow but I won't. But I could.
But the T-1000 is liquid metal. How does it come through?
Obviously liquid metal is close enough to living for government work.
That said, t it would have been cool if the T-1000's appearance in T2 had been the usual light show and then... there's a cow.
and I don't even recall what "features" she had that were more threatening, beyond being female and dressed in tight clothing
She's a combat chassis covered in metal-goo, which allowed her to carry advanced weapons back from the future inside her. Presumably a T-800 could have had built-in weapons but they'd have destroyed its skin when they fired and also each Skynet is probably learning from the Skynets that came "before." Also she had nanobugs that let her control machinery. Like making cars that don't have automatic steering steer themselves sooooooo ascii shrug.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:31 AM on August 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yesss. Bring back Sarah Connor just in time for the Year of the Antifa Mom!
posted by Kitty Stardust at 10:23 AM on August 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitty Stardust at 10:23 AM on August 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
ROU_Xenophobe: I could bore everyone with my ideas for how to wrap up the movies and series with a neat bow but I won't. But I could.
Challenge accepted!
Please?
posted by kandinski at 6:12 PM on August 24, 2017
Challenge accepted!
Please?
posted by kandinski at 6:12 PM on August 24, 2017
So there's an entire subplot in the movie that was edited out for the theatrical release, but has been restored in the director's cut... here are some stories from the inside. I worked at ILM while that film was in post-production.
At the end of the movie, after the T1000 has been shattered by the Arnold Terminator, and it reforms (amazing liquid metal 3D shot by artist Rich Cohen, now deceased), it's no longer functioning properly, and is picking up textures unwillingly. These were referred to internally as the "glitch shots" (seen here from 4:48 on, and those metal melting boots towards the end, that was some serious FX budget that ended up on the cutting room floor), the only trace of which you might have caught in the theatrical release right after Arnold gets his arm caught in the huge gear, and the T1000 turns towards the camera - there's a brief glitch that passes over his face, and which is not seen anywhere else, but is all over that sequence in the director's cut. In the linked video above, you'll see where the T1000 is walking along, grabs an arm rail, the black and yellow texture of which moves up the arm of the T1000. He stops, pulls his now rubbery hand away from the rail (I still have that physical prop in my possession), looks at it, does a quick flip of the arm, and it's back to normal.
The actual arm belonged to George Joblove, the co-manager of the CG department at the time, and there were two versions - with the armrail texture, and without; both arms were shot on bluescreen, and it was left to me to do the cross-dissolve and comp the results onto the live background plate with Robert Patrick. Motion blurred bluescreen elements were a particular problem for pulling bluescreen mattes and doing spill removal, but I had figured out how to deal with that problem on "The Rocketeer", with the flying puppet also presenting a motion blur challenge, one I had figured out in Photoshop (which is what we used to do the digital comping work - and this was PS 1.0 and 2.0, no layers - ever wonder what that Calculations thing in Photoshop is all about? It was for advanced compositing issues that still can only be handled with that functionality). Dennis Muren (the FX supervisor on the show) and Mark A. Z. Dippe came into my cubicle, told me they had heard I solved the motion blur problem, and threw that shot at me to "work my mojo". It had the distinction of being the only shot on that show that finaled on the very first take, and established my reputation at the company. Such a magical time.
For those interested in much more granular detail on ILM's contribution to that project, you'll enjoy this immensely detailed blog post on what went down.
posted by dbiedny at 7:08 PM on August 24, 2017 [24 favorites]
At the end of the movie, after the T1000 has been shattered by the Arnold Terminator, and it reforms (amazing liquid metal 3D shot by artist Rich Cohen, now deceased), it's no longer functioning properly, and is picking up textures unwillingly. These were referred to internally as the "glitch shots" (seen here from 4:48 on, and those metal melting boots towards the end, that was some serious FX budget that ended up on the cutting room floor), the only trace of which you might have caught in the theatrical release right after Arnold gets his arm caught in the huge gear, and the T1000 turns towards the camera - there's a brief glitch that passes over his face, and which is not seen anywhere else, but is all over that sequence in the director's cut. In the linked video above, you'll see where the T1000 is walking along, grabs an arm rail, the black and yellow texture of which moves up the arm of the T1000. He stops, pulls his now rubbery hand away from the rail (I still have that physical prop in my possession), looks at it, does a quick flip of the arm, and it's back to normal.
The actual arm belonged to George Joblove, the co-manager of the CG department at the time, and there were two versions - with the armrail texture, and without; both arms were shot on bluescreen, and it was left to me to do the cross-dissolve and comp the results onto the live background plate with Robert Patrick. Motion blurred bluescreen elements were a particular problem for pulling bluescreen mattes and doing spill removal, but I had figured out how to deal with that problem on "The Rocketeer", with the flying puppet also presenting a motion blur challenge, one I had figured out in Photoshop (which is what we used to do the digital comping work - and this was PS 1.0 and 2.0, no layers - ever wonder what that Calculations thing in Photoshop is all about? It was for advanced compositing issues that still can only be handled with that functionality). Dennis Muren (the FX supervisor on the show) and Mark A. Z. Dippe came into my cubicle, told me they had heard I solved the motion blur problem, and threw that shot at me to "work my mojo". It had the distinction of being the only shot on that show that finaled on the very first take, and established my reputation at the company. Such a magical time.
For those interested in much more granular detail on ILM's contribution to that project, you'll enjoy this immensely detailed blog post on what went down.
posted by dbiedny at 7:08 PM on August 24, 2017 [24 favorites]
I don't miss laserdiscs all that much, but I do miss the T2 box set I had back in the day. The extras in that set were...ummm...comprehensive. I remember a great section about foley effects, which showed scenes from the film side-by-side with the foley artists making the associated sound effects. Picture a scene with the T1000 absorbing gunshots accompanied by a foley artist blowing bubbles in a milkshake, or the aforementioned shattering frozen T1000 with a foley artist dumping a box of nails on a concrete floor.
posted by HillbillyInBC at 7:54 PM on August 24, 2017
posted by HillbillyInBC at 7:54 PM on August 24, 2017
Wow dbiedny, thanks for that comment!
posted by medusa at 9:24 PM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by medusa at 9:24 PM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Thanks dbiedny, that is really neat to know! I recall the scene with the brief glitch that comes over the T-1000; the first time I saw the movie, I thought it was a cool moment - that he had, essentially, just smoothed his hair after the fight with Arnie. But in later viewings, I couldn't shake the feeling that actually, nothing about the physical appearance changes, so I couldn't understand why it was there.
posted by nubs at 11:51 AM on August 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by nubs at 11:51 AM on August 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Just came back from seeing it and it does totally hold up even with the crappy 3D stuck on top of it. I'd forgotten how meticulously plotted it is and how well it flows for a pretty long movie. The audience applauded at the end and I can't remember the last time that happened in a theater.
posted by octothorpe at 7:12 PM on August 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 7:12 PM on August 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Just randomly channel flicking in the place where I'm on vacation - I never have cable otherwise - and caught a few minutes of Terminator. Such 80s goodness in that film now! The hair - phone books - pay phones - answering machines. Plus a young Lance Henriksen, who I always forget is in the movie.
posted by nubs at 11:39 AM on August 28, 2017
posted by nubs at 11:39 AM on August 28, 2017
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I think that's a really key insight here; one of the great things T1 did was give us the partial win. The triumph was in Sarah surviving the Terminator, but that film ends with her sitting in a jeep, driving out to the ass-end of nowhere. "There's a storm coming" we're told, and it's true - both a literal thunderstorm on the horizon, and the nuclear storm that film makes clear is still coming. What I love about T2 is that it is a clear build on that knowledge - Sarah doesn't run from it, she leans in, she does everything she can to prepare herself and John. So T2 ends with the same idea, that this might be a partial win, because even though the future has changed the future has only gone back to being unknown rather than set. And her skepticism is a natural outgrowth of the "no fate but what we make" line; that humanity still has the absolute potential to fuck itself up: "Because if a machine, if a terminator, can learn the value of human life, maybe we can too."
(One thing I do really wish about the film, though, was that the marketing at the time had not made it clear that Arnie was a good guy in this one; the opening twenty minutes would be so much more awesome if you aren't sure)
posted by nubs at 10:05 AM on August 23, 2017 [18 favorites]