Not Blinding Everyone And Setting The World Aflame With Death Rays

August 24, 2017 9:17 AM

Phil Broughton is a health physicist and laser safety specialist at UC Berkeley (and maker of fine turbocoffees). After being introduced to the Kickstarter for Cubiio: The Most Compact Laser Engraver, he has Many Thoughts to share on laser safety and laser device regulation.
posted by Punkey (47 comments total)

N.b.: Malwarebytes flags http://www.funraniumlabs.com/ as a malicious website.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:23 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]

Apparently that is the cost of not having HTTPS on his site. It is not a virus, I assure you.
posted by Punkey at 9:33 AM on August 24, 2017 [4 favorites]

AvE was not impressed by Cubiio. (content warning: swearing, profanity)
posted by YAMWAK at 9:51 AM on August 24, 2017 [8 favorites]

I am not a radiation safety professional, but good lord that thing looks insane.
posted by figurant at 9:51 AM on August 24, 2017

Holy shit, how could you possibly think that thing is a good idea? Jesus.

Also I genuinely was not aware that so many people have so much disposable income that they can pledge hundreds of dollars to a thing which they will use twice.
posted by uncleozzy at 9:55 AM on August 24, 2017

Also I genuinely was not aware that so many people have so much disposable income that they can pledge hundreds of dollars to a thing which they will use twice.

People buy expensive tools at the hardware store all the time rather than renting, and this one's much *cooler* than a table saw or what not, because lasers and shit.
posted by explosion at 10:01 AM on August 24, 2017 [3 favorites]

Also I genuinely was not aware that so many people have so much disposable income that they can pledge hundreds of dollars to a thing which they will use twice.

$1,077,445
pledged of $25,000 goal
posted by thelonius at 10:15 AM on August 24, 2017 [3 favorites]

My brother owns a real laser engraver, and it's a big thing that's probably 3'x3' or bigger, sits on its own table, and has to be connected to an exhaust fan that vents outside via a hose. He has a side business doing laser engraving and it's a pretty impressive thing. I don't know if I would have any faith in that little doodad.
posted by briank at 10:18 AM on August 24, 2017

I do software development, and I specifically use that term because I have friends who are licensed professional engineers. I'm not an engineer.* I just show up and make it all up everyday, and on a good day someone smarter than me made it up first.

So I wanna know, where's the joker that wrote the app and firmware for this open-air problem? Literally the first week of my programming classes in high school was about people dying from death rays! Can we get professional programming licensing in place just so I can be there when we revoke the license of anyone involved who wrote anything more complicated than a CSS selector?

One of these days someone with no experience is going to Kickstart a RTG to provide a lifetime of free electricity, and as the saying goes, the project will get halfway around the world before anyone seeing anything wrong with that can get their shoes on.


Anyway, I look forward to the "Rumors of our demise are greatly exaggerated" and subsequent "Who could have ever known healthcare peace in the middle east cutting lasers could be so hard?1?!?1?!!" updates.



*I'll sometimes use the word architect to describe parts of what I do, and I feel off about it, but I don't know a better synonym.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 10:42 AM on August 24, 2017 [12 favorites]

I've seen 6th grade science projects that were better constructed than that thing. And considerably safer, too.
posted by tommasz at 10:43 AM on August 24, 2017

Phil suffers from an excess of common sense. It would be mega-fun to be able to do laser engraving. Why does he want to spoil our fun if we want to go rogue and laser some other cool stuff? By the way, can it laser through reinforced concrete and hardened steel? How long might that take, and would it be noisy? Asking for a friend.
posted by theora55 at 11:03 AM on August 24, 2017 [5 favorites]

One of these days someone with no experience is going to Kickstart a RTG

(Realizes he knows how to build a basic RTG, realizes he knows how to make a fake RTG that'll look nice and sorta pretend to work for a crucial couple of hours)

Uhhh, which crowdfunding platform has the loosest rules and fewest financial checks? Asking for a friend... a friend who needs a couple hundred K of free monies.
posted by aramaic at 11:05 AM on August 24, 2017 [8 favorites]

also, this is a terrific post, thanks.
posted by theora55 at 11:08 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]

I love a good rant!
posted by tavella at 11:09 AM on August 24, 2017 [3 favorites]

I have a 2 Watt laser in my lab. I've helpfully taped the safety interlock switch together so I don't have to actually put it in a safe enclosure.
posted by runcibleshaw at 11:20 AM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]

From Phil, to runcibleshaw:

"Congratulations! You've just admitted to willfully tampering with a safety device. That is an instant x10 multiplier to any fines OSHA may decided to hit you with. And a jump from misdemeanor to felony if you hurt someone."
posted by Punkey at 11:25 AM on August 24, 2017 [12 favorites]

CHA
posted by clew at 11:29 AM on August 24, 2017 [13 favorites]

If that thing ever hits the open market, the number of people blinded by it will probably match about the number of them sold. I am hopeful that regulators will come down upon them like a ton of bricks.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:31 AM on August 24, 2017

Yeah, that thing is a huge scam, and even if they could cram enough power in that tiny box it'd be stupid dangerous.

I did, however, see recently see someone who did make a usable working prototype of a portable etcher using this kind of tech and an arduino controller. It was a larger breadboard sort of a model and had a more robust power supply, but it could apparently etch walls and stuff while standing in free space.

And digital graffiti is probably going to be a thing real soon now, whether it's ink/paint sprayers like the handheld industrial text markers that are coming out and in use today or portable laser etchers that can even etch glass and metal.

Seriously, imagine some tagger kid with a portable 50 watt solid state laser, control optics and some decent software and a complete disregard for personal safety.

Don't imagine little, annoying tags on the mirrors of a bar or on bus stop shelters. Imagine that tagger kid throwing up a dickbutt meme etched over the entire glass front of an office building or a stone facade because they figured out how to get the focus really tight and etch at a distance from the rooftop of another building.

Also, imagine really high powered handheld cutting lasers of really dodgy safety. This concept has been addressed in a few different ways in SF with things like nanotech-edged machetes or the lightsaber, but things are going to get really weird if you can just lop a small steel beam or bits of concrete off of things as easily as carving your name in a picnic bench with a penknife.

Oddly, I recently had a dream about something like this. I was in some weird agrarian-ish place and some kids were harvesting wheat or rice or some other grain with handheld lasers that basically just looked like laser pointers. Instead of using a scythe or a blade to cut down the stalks of grain they would just bend down, flick on the laser and sweep it over a large segment of field, lopping off all the heads of grain of about a dozen square meters at a go to be picked up and gathered with pitchforks. I distinctly remember the pleasant, toasted smell left by the slightly charred stalks and how cool it looked when a whole swath of grain heads just suddenly fell over and clean off the stalks.
posted by loquacious at 11:46 AM on August 24, 2017 [16 favorites]

I don't care how many do-it-yourselfers this thing blinds or maims, its worst crime is that "-iio" in its name
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:47 AM on August 24, 2017 [3 favorites]

Don't imagine little, annoying tags on the mirrors of a bar or on bus stop shelters. Imagine that tagger kid throwing up a dickbutt meme etched over the entire glass front of an office building or a stone facade because they figured out how to get the focus really tight and etch at a distance from the rooftop of another building.

I admit that part of me thinks this is a funny idea
posted by dismas at 11:52 AM on August 24, 2017 [4 favorites]

because they figured out how to get the focus really tight and etch at a distance from the rooftop of another building.

I am pretty sure they would be too fabulously rich to bother
posted by phooky at 12:40 PM on August 24, 2017

But will it work on the moon?
posted by drezdn at 1:02 PM on August 24, 2017 [3 favorites]

IMPARTUNT LASAH SEAFTEEH NURTIS
posted by lalochezia at 1:45 PM on August 24, 2017

Also I genuinely was not aware that so many people have so much disposable income that they can pledge hundreds of dollars to a thing which they will use twice.

Once for each eye?
posted by Tabitha Someday at 1:50 PM on August 24, 2017 [10 favorites]

I have in the past been responsible for the operation and maintenance of high energy pulsed power equipment, both electrical and optical, which you cannot be in the room of during firing and share in Phil's disdain for this and all other cheap high power diode lasers. I fashion myself to have a reasonably safe mindset when working on high energy systems and I won't go near anything that I don't fully understand and I can't prove is de-energized. We all make stupid or thoughtless mistakes at some point and that's why interlocks and shielding are there to protect people who don't understand, aren't paying attention, or during that random failure mode which wasn't thought of in the FMEA.

While AvE always has a great eye for reviewing hardware/manufacturing he misses the bigger safety points which Phil covers so well so thanks for linking this!

Side note: Looking at Phil's website I now realize that I met him ~8 years ago at a wedding where we talked briefly about lasers and his oh so awesome Steins. Dang do I wish I could justify buying one, I mean it'll keep the kid's formula extra cold, right?
posted by Quack at 2:29 PM on August 24, 2017 [4 favorites]

Imagine that tagger kid throwing up a dickbutt meme etched over the entire glass front of an office building or a stone facade because they figured out how to get the focus really tight and etch at a distance from the rooftop of another building.

Love the idea, although somehow I'm thinking a drone would be even more covert and practical.
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:29 PM on August 24, 2017

Love the idea, although somehow I'm thinking a drone would be even more covert and practical.

Eh, it depends on how long it takes to develop the etching, and the problem of trying to program a drone to accurately scan and etch a large piece is an even larger problem then trying to etch anything at all at any distance beyond a few inches from a known stable location.

And throw a drone in to the mix and now you have a whole lot of noise to go along with whatever visible light you're generating, not to mention whatever crackling noise the laser makes on the surface or substrate itself.

To etch the side of a whole building with one laser would take a lot of time and/or a lot of laser power. The amount of square centimeters or meters being etched directly relates to scan and etch time, because that's directly related to how much energy you can get into one place and how long it takes to heat up your target substrate to the appropriate levels.

One of the other laser graffiti ideas I had when I was a kid was using a plain old low power visible diode with custom holographic gratings to form a projected image at night. You know, those little metal discs you'd get with toy laser pointers back in the day, that could broadcast, say, a heart shape or a soccer ball or whatnot? You can technically make those diffraction gratings at home with the right film and laser.

So throw the diode and grating on a small rechargeable battery and solar panel and go epoxy that stuff in some very well hidden place so it projects whatever graffiti for however long it remains there.

This was basically a lowest-cost solution do using optical galvo scanners to trace a traditional vector laser image.

You could expand this idea to use, say, surplus pico video projectors or DLP chips combined with cheap, disposable lasers.

This was long before the throwie fad where people were taking magnets, LEDs and coin cells and tossing them up under bridges and stuff.

Note to the phedz: I do not own any high powered lasers and I am not a graffiti artist/vandal. I just read too much science fiction and fact. I wouldn't say no to a light saber, tho.
posted by loquacious at 3:18 PM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]

Laser eye safety can be problematical. I'm sure I've said this in a previous laser thread, but a friend was involved (heck, designed) one of the first colour laser projectors as an exploratory project in the R&D labs he worked in. As he says, laser safety goggles have to have very low transmission at the frequency of the laser you're working on, in effect a very deep notch filter that stops the energy before it finds your retina.

WHich is doable, so you can work on a laser system while it's operating and still see enough to do your job. Until you're working on something with R. G. and B lasers, and have to wear something with three notch filters tuned... well, to the receptors in your eyes. Workplace challenges.

As for this device - I saw the AvE video and chuckled at its madness. It may well be one of the stupidest ideas ever to raise a million bucks, not because there haven't been stupid ideas that raised a million bucks before but because of the range, depth and implications of its manifold stupidities.

(I note that the first affordable home laser projectors are coming onto the market. Fun to come.)
posted by Devonian at 3:23 PM on August 24, 2017 [4 favorites]

This is how we end up becoming like reivers in firefly isn't it.
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:23 PM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]

when you open up a closet that’s been nailed shut for four decades for some reason and there’s an unmarked box that sets off the Geiger counter, you call Phil

He makes his job sound really fun.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 5:59 PM on August 24, 2017 [3 favorites]

I shows the kickstarter video to my girlfriend who said "this is making me really nervous," but what really set her off was the kerning on that "P rincess" chair.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 6:44 PM on August 24, 2017 [2 favorites]

There's also a YouTube vid by AvE calling it a scam for the same reasons: (1) not able to be imported to most countries, and (2) will blind you, and (3) it is a crappy product that will do low-quality etchings and probably break soon.

He points out that there's no close-ups and pauses their promo video to show the lousy image quality. And he also mentions the sketchy, "we're working on certifications" note in the k'start comments.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:44 PM on August 24, 2017 [2 favorites]

I signed up for Cubiio at the $1 level. Promptly got an email telling me to get other people to sign up, and I could get 10% cash back from their pledges.

So um. Pyramid marketing scam on top of bad tech marketing scam on top of illegal borderline-weaponry marketing scam.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:09 PM on August 24, 2017 [7 favorites]

He seems like a rad dude. This was absolutely fascinating; thank you!
posted by hototogisu at 8:21 PM on August 24, 2017

I saw an ad for this on Facebook the other day and promptly had the same reaction as Phil. What a terrible idea.
posted by pombe at 8:55 PM on August 24, 2017

I don't care how many do-it-yourselfers this thing blinds or maims, its worst crime is that "-iio" in its name

That's because you start with two eyes and then - oh.
posted by maryr at 9:01 PM on August 24, 2017 [15 favorites]

BTW, is there any reason you couldn't post a project to Kickstarter, use your own or venture capital to fund it anonymously, and then get free buzz off of wow, look at this successful Kickstarter!
posted by maryr at 9:03 PM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]

You can find a very similar product on AliExpress right now. I know a guy who imports and resells them. He builds a little acrylic safety box around them but they don't come with that normally. The guy who wrote this post is having a turbo coffee aneurysm right now.
posted by miyabo at 9:58 PM on August 24, 2017 [1 favorite]

Do not look into Cubiio with remaining eye.
posted by rhizome at 10:40 PM on August 24, 2017 [4 favorites]

"pancake smells"
posted by deadbilly at 2:44 AM on August 25, 2017 [1 favorite]

Speaking of lasers and crowdfunding, my Glowforge arrived a couple weeks ago and I have been lasering with abandon.
posted by misterpatrick at 9:49 AM on August 25, 2017

is there any reason you couldn't post a project to Kickstarter, use your own or venture capital to fund it anonymously, and then get free buzz off of wow, look at this successful Kickstarter!

I am certain this happens quite a bit - I've seen several projects funded first-day with a small number of backers that provided a lot more money than the reward levels they signed up for. There is nothing against the rules about convincing friends/ family/ investors to sign up for the highest reward level and throw in extra thousands of dollars.

With investors, you have to arrange your contract details carefully; K'start doesn't allow investment features - but that just means "whatever we arrange elsewhere has no binding force on K'start itself."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:49 AM on August 25, 2017 [1 favorite]

You can find a very similar product on AliExpress right now. I know a guy who imports and resells them. He builds a little acrylic safety box around them but they don't come with that normally.

miyabo: Are you talking about the very small desktop units that have X/Y controlled beds? Or is there a model that's actually a cube that projects a scan from a single point? IE, using mirrors and optics to move the laser light, rather than moving the laser head or the substrate bed itself?

I did some searching and can't find anything that projects like the one in the post. I'm curious because they're both dangerous tools, but a system that uses mirrrors/optics to track and focus the beam are much more technically difficult and much more dangerous due to the wider range of reflections happening.
posted by loquacious at 6:32 PM on August 25, 2017

Yes, I meant only the X/Y bed type. I haven't seen the projection type and I'm skeptical they can overcome the technical challenges to doing it.
posted by miyabo at 11:12 AM on August 26, 2017

Cubiio manager is answering questions. Emphasis added.

"From Day 1 of campaign, we started to cooperate with 3 certification companies (UL, TUV, NEMKO) for IEC-60825-1 (or EN60825), FDA CDRH, CE, FCC, RoHS and other items.

Cubiio Team understands details of IEC-60825-1 (laser classification). ...
Cubiio Basic: Class 3B, NOT Class 4, because its optical power output is limited below 500 mW.
Cubiio Suit: Class 1, because it has an enclosure to attenuate laser leakage. Labels, construction features (interlocks, key control, beam attenuator, emission indicator, etc.), user manual statements, etc. are also present.

Tomorrow (8/28 Monday) we have a meeting with one of the third party certification companies. The certification company will suggest us how to slightly modify our products for customs’ requirements. "

"laser classification takes 4-6 weeks. Other required certifications take 6 – 8 weeks. All certifications can be processed in parallel (so we hire 3 companies)"

"Cubiio has a non-electrical method (magnet-hall sensor) to detect the presence of CubiioShield. Once CubiioShield is detected, Cubiio can deliver 800 mW."

Erm... I really hope that the safety requirements aren't, "if it detects a magnet near its attachment prongs, that makes it Class 1 instead of Class 4."

Overview of the FDA regs for lasers; there's nothing about adjustable devices, but also, nothing against them.

Import laws related to radiation devices (scroll down to section 5): "Every manufacturer of electronic products, prior to offering such product for importation into the United States, shall designate a permanent resident of the United States as the manufacturer's agent..."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:34 PM on August 27, 2017

Followup: CubiioShield Become a Must - they're removing the "basic" option and requiring the shield version, which puts it at Class I, which is much safer.

A whole lot of people are canceling pledges, because it's just lost all its "works anywhere on anything!" features.

Also, they're pushing back all their US rewards to Jan 2018 or later. They haven't said if they expect to have US licensing before the k'start fundraising is over, though, and I'm pretty sure they're already in violation of the import laws - they're offering products without an agent in the US, even though the timeline for delivery is several months away.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:31 PM on August 31, 2017