Pim Fortuyn Murder Suspect is Environmental Activist

May 7, 2002 9:59 AM

Pim Fortuyn Murder Suspect is Environmental Activist The suspect mainly concerned himself with the fight against bio-industry and fur farms. Mr Fortuyn just recently said he would lift the scheduled ban on raising animals for furs.
posted by nobody_knose (33 comments total)

I really don't know what to say. This is just beyond comprehension. Can anyone make sense of this?
posted by nobody_knose at 10:24 AM on May 7, 2002

No, there is no sense to be made of it. How can a person that is so against harming animals or whatever he was fully standing for, do this? Well, he won't have to worry about being late for rallies anymore, don't think he'll be going to any for a longggg time.
posted by the_0ne at 10:27 AM on May 7, 2002

Well, I'm not to familiar with Mr Fortuyn, was he a cool guy?

Anyway, it makes prefict sense to me. Human beings are irrational and capable of great crulety. Also, there is no god.

Well, okay I don't quite think so lowely of Humans in general, but this does make sense. If the murderer held the life of a Person and a fir animal to be equal, then it makes as much sense to kill this dude as it would for someone who considered jews people (most of us here I hope) to kill Hitler, or unborn children people to kill an abortion doctor.

These people consider themselves to be moraly in the right.
posted by delmoi at 10:29 AM on May 7, 2002

assassination just does not happen in the Netherlands. well, rarely happen. In 1943, Hendrick Syffardt was killed in the Hauge, he was accussed of collaboration with the Germans. In 1979, Sir Richard Sykes, British ambassador to Netherlands was killed near the Hauge, most likely IRA. It just doesnt happen. I was shocked and sad. I dont make any sence of it. But however or from whomever he got the weapon, well that person(s) will also have a very long time to think about it.
posted by clavdivs at 10:57 AM on May 7, 2002

the differences between ABC's version and the BBC's is sad. i especially like that flamboyant made the headline. then there's the whole part about dogs, servants, artwork, floorwork, it's all very important...
posted by rhyax at 11:29 AM on May 7, 2002

The excellent AnimalRights.net has more on this enviro-nut (and his ideological peers, if you click through to the front page).
posted by dagny at 11:48 AM on May 7, 2002

B... H... Words not springing from keyboard. If one could argue a good reason to assassinate someone... not making any sense... er, this would not be it. Fortuyn was controversial for bigger issues and he's killed because of a minor issue which, even if he had been elected, may not have been so easily changed.

I just left Amsterdam Monday morning and, while I enjoyed my stay, I am flabbergasted to believe that the general feel on the street must be remarkably different.
posted by Dick Paris at 11:50 AM on May 7, 2002

How ironic — and astonishing — that he may have been gunned down for a comparatively minor and insignificant part of his platform, and not for the parts that made him so controversial. But then it's not supposed to make sense.
posted by mcwetboy at 11:58 AM on May 7, 2002

"…Fortuyn wanted to restructure the Dutch department of agriculture, making it more animal-friendly to help limit diseases such as BSE. He wanted to make farming less intensive."
posted by darukaru at 12:03 PM on May 7, 2002

How can a person that is so against harming animals or whatever he was fully standing for, do this?

The same way that some American crazies who call themselves "pro-life" are okay with killing doctors who perform abortions.

Key concept is *crazies*. Such people lend no credibility to their causes, and there's probably a lot of European environmentalists just in anguish right now that they're suddenly having to remind the media that they're not killers.

Remember the post someone made a while ago to a news story about a tiny baby nearly dying because her parents had kept her to a strict vegan diet? Our food-without-faces contingent jumped all over the way that was reported, saying the important thing wasn't that the parents were vegan but that they were obviously all screwed up---same thing here.
posted by Sapphireblue at 12:24 PM on May 7, 2002

ryhax: Did you notice the actualy HTML title for that ABC story?
<title>ABCNEWS.com : Fortuyn: Controversial, Flamboyant and Dead</title>

That's pretty cold. Funny, but cold :P
posted by delmoi at 12:26 PM on May 7, 2002

I think the real problem is the way the left demonizes almost everyone who disagrees with their philosophy, however slight. All "auslanders" are labeled as stupid, crazy or dangerous - usually all three. I know conservatives do this too, but not in nearly as lock step as the left. I supect this made it just a little bit easier for the "crazy" to justify his actions.
posted by nobody_knose at 12:29 PM on May 7, 2002

then it makes as much sense to kill this dude as it would for someone .... to kill Hitler

GODWIN

end of thread
posted by matteo at 12:37 PM on May 7, 2002

A big "thpbpbpbpbth" to both the previous comments. To nobody_knose, for using one single nutcase to define "the left" -- as if the right wing didn't have its share of nutcases. And to matteo for just being pointless.
posted by ook at 12:49 PM on May 7, 2002

ook: Read it again, please. Where did I say this nutcase defined the left?

I said that the left demonizes anyone outside their circle. This is very different from saying that they kill anyone outside their circle. My argument was that their consistent demonization of legitimate alternative viewpoints makes it easier for crazies to justify their actions. Sorry that you can't see the distinction.
posted by nobody_knose at 12:59 PM on May 7, 2002

Sorry that you can't see the distinction.

Sorry that you can't see it applies equally on both sides, especially now. You think conservatives don't smear and demonise? Dear me, it's taken the left years to compete the 'not with us is against us' scale. I don't think politics have been this polarised, with each side speaking exclusively to its loyal retainers, in decades.
posted by riviera at 1:12 PM on May 7, 2002

nobody_knose... tell you what. Do me the favor of assuming that I'm not a complete moron, and I'll do the same for you. Fair enough?

It is of course obvious to both of us that you were not claiming that everyone on the left is a killer. What you were claiming, if I can follow your logic, was that this nutjob was a left-winger, and the left demonizes other people, therefore it is easier for lefties to become murderers. Doesn't that sound at all like you're using a single extreme example to represent the whole group?

Problem is that you're starting with a ridiculous, baseless assertion. "The left" doesn't march in lockstep any more than "the right" does. There are crazy left-wingers who demonize the opposition, and there are crazy right-wingers who demonize the opposition. And there are plenty on both sides who don't. If you really believe that's not the case, then you've got some demonization issues of your own to deal with.
posted by ook at 2:10 PM on May 7, 2002

Sounds like this right-wing dead guy was pretty much the slime that feeds on the pus that infects the scum...etc etc.

But violence is NOT the proper response to scum...or even slime...or even the right-wing, tempting as it may be. It's actually not the answer to anything.

For example, I suspect at least a few posters here on Metafilter were probably spanked senseless as children by their conservative, right-wing parents, and look at the mess now.

I think the real problem is the way the left demonizes almost everyone who disagrees with their philosophy, however slight.

~laugh...getting deep in here~

Yeah, leftists from Mccarthy to Pat Robertson right up through idiot Limbaugh really piss us all off, the damned demonizers.

My argument was that their consistent demonization of legitimate alternative viewpoints makes it easier for crazies to justify their actions.

Yeah, preach on. Those leftist crazies like Timothy McVeigh, Osama Bin Laden, and the entire KKK have been some of Oprah's and Barbara Streisand's biggest and most vocal fans.

Commies.

It was the left, after all, who taught humanism (eek!) and liberalism (hiss!)...who demonized us with the vicious terrorist philosophy of "hug a tree", who chanted the blood-chilling "make love, not war", who sang the horrifics of "give peace a chance"-- all instead of guiding McVeigh-Laden-Klan toward gentle conservatism...cough...segregation and benign militarism...choke...My Lai and child-nurturing religion..gasp...Catholic priests and friendly capitalism...gurgle...Enron/Firestone/Love Canal/Britney Spears.

I hate those leftists.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 2:27 PM on May 7, 2002

<offtopic>
Now that I've calmed down a bit, I'd like to apologize for this bit: tell you what. Do me the favor of assuming that I'm not a complete moron, and I'll do the same for you. Fair enough? -- which was a) uncalled for, b) unpleasant, and c) evidence that I need to get a life and/or switch to decaf.
</offtopic>
posted by ook at 3:03 PM on May 7, 2002

In case anyone cares, here's yer man. And I didn't tell you.
posted by riviera at 3:11 PM on May 7, 2002

Adam Curry (yes, that one), who lives in the Netherlands with his wife, says that Fortuyn was 'a student of JFK' and bemoans the foreign media's use of "extreme right" or "hard right" to describe him (as in this Economist article that otherwise suggested he was an iconoclast), even though some Dutch seem to think the same thing. Curry continues to post updates, including other comments on Fortuyn's politics.

Rafe Coburn comments, , [The Economist calling him right wing] tells you all you need to know about the difference between US and European politics. Fortuyn was an openly gay man who opposed immigration from Muslim countries mainly because of the homophobia and misogyny that are prominent features of many Islamic cultures. In America, homophobia and misogyny are usually associated with the right wing.
posted by dhartung at 3:33 PM on May 7, 2002

It's sooooo "Economist" that they ran a caption as cold-blooded and basically stupid as "The unfortunate Fortuyn".
"OmyGod we are just so smart! And so funny! And we all went to Oxford!" -- just like that "Onion" Economist spoof, only they're mean too
And ook, I'm not being pointless, I just know Godwin's Law and you don't. Hitler/Holocaust comparisons are definitely under that
posted by matteo at 3:56 PM on May 7, 2002

Rafe Coburn comments...

I think the verb you're searching for is 'smears', not 'comments'.
posted by ljromanoff at 4:33 PM on May 7, 2002

matteo: read this article, and note the byline.

Godwin's law only applies to comparisons of people participating in the thread to nazis, not mere mention of the word 'nazi' in some sense (besides I wasn't comparing anyone to Hitler, I was drawing an analogy between this guys thought process and that of someone who opposed Hitler).

Btw, I don't hardly think the killer was crazy at all. Its entirely possible that his thought processes were totally self-consistent. His morals are just different. Of course, he needs to be removed from society.
posted by delmoi at 4:44 PM on May 7, 2002

Btw, WTF is a 'marxist' doing driving around in lemos and having mansions with marble floors and naked man statues?
posted by delmoi at 4:51 PM on May 7, 2002

This whole "I call Godwin" thing is so stupid. I was a friend of Mike Godwin's in those days, and helped propagate the meme. It definitely doesn't mean a discussion is over: "Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Nothing about threads ending or discussions being over. In fact, Mike even cites Cliff Stoll's version as a "mutation": "once a discussion reaches a comparison to Nazis or Hitler, its usefulness is over". So matteo, maybe you're not quite as clued-in as you think.
posted by rodii at 4:55 PM on May 7, 2002

Wow, rodii, what are you, some kind of Godwin's law NAZI?! Apologies, I couldn't help it.
posted by Eamon at 5:33 PM on May 7, 2002

Heh.

*invades Eamon-land*
posted by rodii at 5:43 PM on May 7, 2002

Way to avoid any evidence that says your comrades-in-ideology are ever capable of acting like the rest of us *gasp* right-wing fools, foldykins. Bonus points for the cheap shots at people's parentage; you're getting almost as good at sniffing out nonexistent Republicanism as nofundy.
And as long as we're dealing with laundry lists and pissing contests, it was also the left that gave us the gulag.
posted by darukaru at 5:47 PM on May 7, 2002

I don't get the point of the Rafe Coburn comment at all. The Economist is a UK publication; how does its calling Pim Fortuyn "right-wing" illustrate "the difference between US and European politics?"

And, darukaru, I see your gulag and raise you one Auschwitz and an Inquisition. Tyrants come in all political flavors, yes? Crazies come in all political flavors, too.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:02 PM on May 7, 2002

The isolated criminal will never equal the bodycounty achieved by humanity acting as a group to the detriment of a less poweful group. Hence, those political ideologies which best control the ability of any one group to dominate over others are to be preferred. The appropriate ideology to champion is then obvious.
posted by quercus at 6:25 PM on May 7, 2002

One point that many have missed: Fortuyn had only been in politics for six months, and none of his party had really had the chance to enact any policies or even exert any legislative influence, even after doing well in local Rotterdam elections. By contrast, Le Pen's an old trooper, and the FN has been around for 30 years, which has given the French a chance to see what it's like in local govt. and the assembly. That's why it's hard to establish precisely where Fortuyn lay, except that his defining policy was xenophobic, no matter how you call it. And xenophobia is traditionally associated with the right, no matter how you call it, and no matter what you attribute to the foreigners. It's all about the role of "those people" - as a political slogan and a political football.
posted by riviera at 8:44 PM on May 7, 2002

"And xenophobia is traditionally associated with the right"
Though occasionally it shows up on the enviro-left. Witness the Sierra Club divisive debate and Edward Abbey (King-God of Deep Ecology).
Irony of ironies abound
posted by Mack Doggy at 9:26 AM on May 8, 2002