y-life
October 6, 2017 1:18 PM Subscribe
Okay, let’s begin. Every story needs to begin somewhere, so it makes sense to start with how I got embroiled in the “Y-life”. So, in this first instalment, I will tell you how I was reeled in like a carp on a fisherman’s hook, in… Chapter 1 – Getting Reeled In- Elle Beau writes on getting sucked in to Younique, a multi-level marketing scheme for makeup.
THE INDEX
Chapter 2:
Hook, Line and Stinker
One girl named Bethany had already commented saying that she was interested!Chapter 3: Enter The Charlat-huns
Goodness me – I don’t know what came over myself, but it was like a call to attention. I wanted a space on Scarlett’s team, I wanted to be a part of this exciting business opportunity! I didn’t want anyone to take that space before I could!
With fingers moving faster than my brain, I scrabbled to message Scarlett.
Scarlett had created a little picture collage with a photo of Bethany and I (remember, Bethany was one of the other ladies who responded to Scarlett’s call to arms). A shedload of sparkles, glittery bling and hearts adorned the photo’s borders. Her excitement was clear to see in the accompanying caption.
I haven't even read the article yet (and can't wait to dive in) but I'm already afraid of this company because its name sounds like a corporation or product from Margaret Atwood's Oryx and Crake series.
posted by barchan at 1:26 PM on October 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by barchan at 1:26 PM on October 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
I read this a couple weeks ago. It's... bananas. The whole phenomenon is bananas. I fundamentally do not grok what makes totally normal, usually somewhat skeptical or sensible people decide to give this shit a go when it is so blatantly a scam. And in this story you can see Elle herself trying really hard to convince herself that this is fine, her friend is totes telling the truth about the fame and fortune that is just. around. the. corner even as that voice in the back of her head is going, "Um, nah, that can't be right."
These companies are capital-e evil. They exploit social connections and most especially the social connections among women--which we have for a very good reason given that many of us are one step away from being left destitute due to childbearing, domestic abuse, and workplace discrimination--to steal, con, and destroy those very same very necessary social fibers.
Capital. E. Evil.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:39 PM on October 6, 2017 [38 favorites]
These companies are capital-e evil. They exploit social connections and most especially the social connections among women--which we have for a very good reason given that many of us are one step away from being left destitute due to childbearing, domestic abuse, and workplace discrimination--to steal, con, and destroy those very same very necessary social fibers.
Capital. E. Evil.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:39 PM on October 6, 2017 [38 favorites]
These things are always with us, but rampant social media saturation seems to both be an accelerant and ultimately SHOULD* speed up the rate at which rational people see them as the hopeless things they are.
It's frustrating when you know just a little bit of economic theory and you know it's impossible, like alchemy and perpetual motion, but your (soon-to-be-former) friend(s) can't.
*but obviously doesn't
posted by randomkeystrike at 1:53 PM on October 6, 2017
It's frustrating when you know just a little bit of economic theory and you know it's impossible, like alchemy and perpetual motion, but your (soon-to-be-former) friend(s) can't.
*but obviously doesn't
posted by randomkeystrike at 1:53 PM on October 6, 2017
I've mentioned here before how my MiL has dabbled (unsuccessfully) in several MLM schemes. Scentsy. Body by Vi. Jamberry. There are several more but those are the only ones I can name at the moment.
Every "regular" job she's ever had in the ~20 years that I've known her has sucked. Think Amazon warehouse suck. So I can understand her desire to break free from that routine with something that promises you can set your own hours, work at your own pace, and your only limits to how much you'll make is the amount of time and energy you want to apply to it.
Yesterday my wife spent about $20 buying jewelry from an online "party" that my MiL is "hosting". When she told me this, I immediately said something snarky about how she needs to not go down this path again, about how it's been so unsuccessful for her in the past. My wife shares my sentiment, and told me that at this point her mom hasn't "invested" anything yet, she's just enjoying hosting these jewelry parties that allows a friend of hers to sell the jewelry and make contacts. We both feel that it's just a matter of days until her mom takes the plunge and buys in.
My MiL is pretty isolated socially, so these parties are a boon to her. I can understand needing to satisfy that social desire. My wife and her two sisters each spent about $20 on the jewelry, and we all fear that this will have given my MiL a false sense of accomplishment, because Look How Much I Sold On My First Party! But that's just her daughters. Once she burns through the few family members who are willing to buy cheap costume jewelry, what's next? With Body by Vi (protein powder for smoothies) she flew to conferences in big cities to attend seminars.
With Jamberry (stickers for laminating your finernails) and Scentsy (scented wax you melt over a small lamp), she justifies this by saying "Oh I'm not even trying to make a profit; I just enjoy sharing these things with friends/family and this way we all get a discount on it", but that's delusional. There's no way she's selling enough to "level up" or whatever. As far as I know she's (thankfully) never convinced anyone to buy into the scheme under her. She buys most of her product through herself and we all get it at Every. Christmas. And. Birthday.
My wife and I have Facebook stalked the woman hosting these jewelry parties, and her feed is full of "CONTACT ME IF YOU WANT TO WORK FROM HOME" and "WHAT IF I TOLD YOU THAT YOU COULD MAKE $50,000 A YEAR ON THE SIDE" bullshit. These companies feed off people's hopes, dreams, desperation, and social isolation.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 2:02 PM on October 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
Every "regular" job she's ever had in the ~20 years that I've known her has sucked. Think Amazon warehouse suck. So I can understand her desire to break free from that routine with something that promises you can set your own hours, work at your own pace, and your only limits to how much you'll make is the amount of time and energy you want to apply to it.
Yesterday my wife spent about $20 buying jewelry from an online "party" that my MiL is "hosting". When she told me this, I immediately said something snarky about how she needs to not go down this path again, about how it's been so unsuccessful for her in the past. My wife shares my sentiment, and told me that at this point her mom hasn't "invested" anything yet, she's just enjoying hosting these jewelry parties that allows a friend of hers to sell the jewelry and make contacts. We both feel that it's just a matter of days until her mom takes the plunge and buys in.
My MiL is pretty isolated socially, so these parties are a boon to her. I can understand needing to satisfy that social desire. My wife and her two sisters each spent about $20 on the jewelry, and we all fear that this will have given my MiL a false sense of accomplishment, because Look How Much I Sold On My First Party! But that's just her daughters. Once she burns through the few family members who are willing to buy cheap costume jewelry, what's next? With Body by Vi (protein powder for smoothies) she flew to conferences in big cities to attend seminars.
With Jamberry (stickers for laminating your finernails) and Scentsy (scented wax you melt over a small lamp), she justifies this by saying "Oh I'm not even trying to make a profit; I just enjoy sharing these things with friends/family and this way we all get a discount on it", but that's delusional. There's no way she's selling enough to "level up" or whatever. As far as I know she's (thankfully) never convinced anyone to buy into the scheme under her. She buys most of her product through herself and we all get it at Every. Christmas. And. Birthday.
My wife and I have Facebook stalked the woman hosting these jewelry parties, and her feed is full of "CONTACT ME IF YOU WANT TO WORK FROM HOME" and "WHAT IF I TOLD YOU THAT YOU COULD MAKE $50,000 A YEAR ON THE SIDE" bullshit. These companies feed off people's hopes, dreams, desperation, and social isolation.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 2:02 PM on October 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
I grew up with a problem gambler, whose gambling intensified as the financial situation got worse and worse until it eventually hit rock bottom (thank fuck for the then existent welfare state).
Even so, as an adult when our financial situation gets bad, my first thought is the lottery or a scratchcard or online gambling. It's a horrible impulse that I have to be wary of. If I were more social, more outgoing, that could easy feed into to Younique or Forever Living or one of the other fucking scams where you'll be driving a Range Rover in a couple of months if you only work hard enough (and simultaneously barely work at all).
I have no idea whether it is still going on, but the Jobcentre used to allow Forever Living and other MLMs to advertise, and I've also known MLMers suggest that it's eligible for the New Enterprise Allowance for small businesses. Its no wonder that people would consider it legit.
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:24 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Even so, as an adult when our financial situation gets bad, my first thought is the lottery or a scratchcard or online gambling. It's a horrible impulse that I have to be wary of. If I were more social, more outgoing, that could easy feed into to Younique or Forever Living or one of the other fucking scams where you'll be driving a Range Rover in a couple of months if you only work hard enough (and simultaneously barely work at all).
I have no idea whether it is still going on, but the Jobcentre used to allow Forever Living and other MLMs to advertise, and I've also known MLMers suggest that it's eligible for the New Enterprise Allowance for small businesses. Its no wonder that people would consider it legit.
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:24 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
MLM Is A Feminist Issue
It seems to me that MLM's prey on people who don't have many other options in the workplace: no college or trade school degree, few marketable skills, living in a high-unemployment area, having a work-limiting disability but not eligible for Social Security, any and all of the above. I also think they draw in people who crave connection but haven't been successful in creating it.
Close-knit towns and neighborhoods, churches, social clubs and organizations - they very much had their drawbacks, and I'm not nostalgic for the Good Old Days, but they did offer a social and economic safety net. I think people turn to MLM's not just out of desperation for decent work, but out of loneliness. And MLM's don't employ the jobless or befriend the lonely - they are cruel scams that prey on them.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:26 PM on October 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
It seems to me that MLM's prey on people who don't have many other options in the workplace: no college or trade school degree, few marketable skills, living in a high-unemployment area, having a work-limiting disability but not eligible for Social Security, any and all of the above. I also think they draw in people who crave connection but haven't been successful in creating it.
Close-knit towns and neighborhoods, churches, social clubs and organizations - they very much had their drawbacks, and I'm not nostalgic for the Good Old Days, but they did offer a social and economic safety net. I think people turn to MLM's not just out of desperation for decent work, but out of loneliness. And MLM's don't employ the jobless or befriend the lonely - they are cruel scams that prey on them.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:26 PM on October 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
Ugh, I'm on Chapter 5. A friend recently added me to her FB group selling smelly stuff. I haven't had the courage to remove myself because it feels rude... even though it was rude of her to add me in the first place. Just ugh.
posted by slipthought at 2:30 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by slipthought at 2:30 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think part of the explosion is women with fond memories of Avon and Tupperware and a few other multi-level sales companies that actually sold something a lot of people wanted. And they think these new MLM setups are just like that, only with a different focus - hey look, it's like Avon, only it's fingernail stickers only instead of a full array of makeup and jewelry! Smaller market, sure, but also new tech so it's not already saturated, and the side bonus is cute art for your own nails!
It's a lot harder to get them to see that the reason Avon and Tupperware worked, was that local stores couldn't afford to stock customized selections that suited the local community's buying habits. Amazon can; a retailer has to offer something more than "on-demand just-your-choices" to compete.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:45 PM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
It's a lot harder to get them to see that the reason Avon and Tupperware worked, was that local stores couldn't afford to stock customized selections that suited the local community's buying habits. Amazon can; a retailer has to offer something more than "on-demand just-your-choices" to compete.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:45 PM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
Yes, Avon and Tupperware worked because they sold (for the most part) good quality, useful items. For Avon in particular, in an era when there was no Sephora or Ulta, and no online shopping, sometimes the choice was between Avon (decent quality) and drugstore makeup (very much hit-or-miss until the past 5 or 10 years).
Avon and Tupperware were mostly side hustles, at least among the people I knew. My aunt who was a middle school teacher always bought Avon perfumes, jewelry, etc. for her female relatives for Christmas. (I still have an Avon perfume bottle in the shape of a cat somewhere! They had some lovely perfume bottles!) One of her fellow teachers sold Avon on the side - not to get rich and Be Her Own Boss, but to make a little extra money.
Now it seems like everyone who does the MLM thing wants to get rich using that as their only source of income, and they are selling crappy products (LuLaRoe fugly-ass clothes, etc.), and they are competing with Amazon, Sephora, Ulta, and many other retailers in a crowded market.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:55 PM on October 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Avon and Tupperware were mostly side hustles, at least among the people I knew. My aunt who was a middle school teacher always bought Avon perfumes, jewelry, etc. for her female relatives for Christmas. (I still have an Avon perfume bottle in the shape of a cat somewhere! They had some lovely perfume bottles!) One of her fellow teachers sold Avon on the side - not to get rich and Be Her Own Boss, but to make a little extra money.
Now it seems like everyone who does the MLM thing wants to get rich using that as their only source of income, and they are selling crappy products (LuLaRoe fugly-ass clothes, etc.), and they are competing with Amazon, Sephora, Ulta, and many other retailers in a crowded market.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:55 PM on October 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
God, the part in episode 7 with the mom making a halting video in her bathroom while her kids try to barge in and want in to cuddle and then being berated for it and told to get a baby sitter... I'm a guy, with little ones I could add I suppose, and that makes me see red and my head hurt. Fuck the environment that puts women I to this situation where they get screwed while trying to break out...
posted by RolandOfEld at 4:55 PM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by RolandOfEld at 4:55 PM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
I fundamentally do not grok what makes totally normal, usually somewhat skeptical or sensible people decide to give this shit a go when it is so blatantly a scam.
The trick with pyramid schemes is the sleight of hand involved, not in concealing the scam, but in making everyone feel like they're on the grifting side, not the grifted. And, of course, the most greedy and exploitative people do sometimes manage to make money from the scam, even at somewhat lower levels, so their "success" creates an illusion of sustainability and genuine profit.
posted by howfar at 5:51 PM on October 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
The trick with pyramid schemes is the sleight of hand involved, not in concealing the scam, but in making everyone feel like they're on the grifting side, not the grifted. And, of course, the most greedy and exploitative people do sometimes manage to make money from the scam, even at somewhat lower levels, so their "success" creates an illusion of sustainability and genuine profit.
posted by howfar at 5:51 PM on October 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
I should add that it's much more complex than that, and that there are also a lot of people who are just desperate, and see a glimmer of hope. Sometimes people just choose to hope, even though it harms them.
posted by howfar at 5:53 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by howfar at 5:53 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I feel for the people who get caught up in this shit, but my brain shut down at chapter 3. Can someone provide a GIF and italics free summary, please?
posted by maudlin at 5:53 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by maudlin at 5:53 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's a fairly standard ex-mlm story (which doesn't mean it isn't bananas, because the whole industry is completely crackers from top to bottom). She gets sucked in, she gets told to always! Be! Positive! She alienates friends and family and gets told that's fine she doesn't need those negative nellies anyway. She never really sells anything. There's endless drama from the upline. The person who recruited her goes rogue. It's pretty clear no one is selling anything in her tier or even the one above. She's pressured to purchase more stock even though she's not moving any and to engage in all sorts of cringe-worthy social media behavior. She finally wises up and gets out and reestablishes relationships with her family members.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:07 PM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:07 PM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
It seems to me that MLM's prey on people who don't have many other options in the workplace: no college or trade school degree, few marketable skills, living in a high-unemployment area, having a work-limiting disability but not eligible for Social Security, any and all of the above. I also think they draw in people who crave connection but haven't been successful in creating it.
That has been my observation of the people I've known who have gotten into them. The whole thing seems predatory and exploitative to me.
Yes, Avon and Tupperware worked because they sold (for the most part) good quality, useful items. For Avon in particular, in an era when there was no Sephora or Ulta, and no online shopping, sometimes the choice was between Avon (decent quality) and drugstore makeup (very much hit-or-miss until the past 5 or 10 years).
Avon and Tupperware were mostly side hustles, at least among the people I knew. My aunt who was a middle school teacher always bought Avon perfumes, jewelry, etc. for her female relatives for Christmas. (I still have an Avon perfume bottle in the shape of a cat somewhere! They had some lovely perfume bottles!) One of her fellow teachers sold Avon on the side - not to get rich and Be Her Own Boss, but to make a little extra money.
That matches my memory from when I was a kid. I don't think my mother ever sold any of those things, but her friends did, and I can remember them talking about how the quality was better. There may still have been an exploitative structure to the businesses, I don't know, but at least the underlying product was highly regarded.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:10 PM on October 6, 2017
That has been my observation of the people I've known who have gotten into them. The whole thing seems predatory and exploitative to me.
Yes, Avon and Tupperware worked because they sold (for the most part) good quality, useful items. For Avon in particular, in an era when there was no Sephora or Ulta, and no online shopping, sometimes the choice was between Avon (decent quality) and drugstore makeup (very much hit-or-miss until the past 5 or 10 years).
Avon and Tupperware were mostly side hustles, at least among the people I knew. My aunt who was a middle school teacher always bought Avon perfumes, jewelry, etc. for her female relatives for Christmas. (I still have an Avon perfume bottle in the shape of a cat somewhere! They had some lovely perfume bottles!) One of her fellow teachers sold Avon on the side - not to get rich and Be Her Own Boss, but to make a little extra money.
That matches my memory from when I was a kid. I don't think my mother ever sold any of those things, but her friends did, and I can remember them talking about how the quality was better. There may still have been an exploitative structure to the businesses, I don't know, but at least the underlying product was highly regarded.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:10 PM on October 6, 2017
I have an old high school classmate who got sucked into Market America (and it looks like she's still doing it). The thing is, she was an accountant (before she quit to do MLM).
posted by airmail at 6:32 PM on October 6, 2017
posted by airmail at 6:32 PM on October 6, 2017
I found this blog and the resources she points to super-helpful when researching a family member's MLM scheme.
Plus, some amazing stories about trying to hawk this stuff. There are SO MANY of these companies fleecing people. How many garages and sheds are chock full of stockpiled stuff that people bought just to stay active?
Governments should crack down harder on these parasitic companies, but they are ruining lives left and right.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 6:38 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Plus, some amazing stories about trying to hawk this stuff. There are SO MANY of these companies fleecing people. How many garages and sheds are chock full of stockpiled stuff that people bought just to stay active?
Governments should crack down harder on these parasitic companies, but they are ruining lives left and right.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 6:38 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Anecdotally there seem to be a lot of exceptions to the notion that only socially or economically marginalized people are drawn to mlms. Mormons love them some mlms and if there's one thing Mormonism does well it's a high degree of social activity. But Mormons also love the idea of women not working outside the home and I don't know about y'all but staying home all day with kids makes me want to do something, anything else.
Mlms promise money with little or no work (but then as soon as you sign on you get berated for not working hard enough--which is kind of where I'd think people'd be like, that's it, I'm out, but then you've just admitted that you thought you were going to get something for almost nothing which no one wants to actually say out loud).
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:47 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Mlms promise money with little or no work (but then as soon as you sign on you get berated for not working hard enough--which is kind of where I'd think people'd be like, that's it, I'm out, but then you've just admitted that you thought you were going to get something for almost nothing which no one wants to actually say out loud).
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:47 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
My wife and I have a close friend from back home that sells this stuff. Said friend is smart, level-headed and already has years of experience running a reasonably successful small business, so I assume she knows what she's doing. Her marketing on Facebook is well produced and not terribly obnoxious, at least - more actual product demos than anything else. Her husband makes decent money, so I figure it's just a way to make some extra cash as a stay-at-home mom. I hope it's working out for her.
That said, my wife has little patience for these schemes. Wife is a scientist who passed on more financially lucrative career paths to instead teach the next generation of scientists - female scientists, in particular - and she laments that there will be a whole generation of daughters who will grow up thinking the only thing a woman can do is sell makeup (or candles, or whatever) on Facebook.
I think they mostly avoid the subject when they chat on the phone.
posted by jal0021 at 7:26 PM on October 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
That said, my wife has little patience for these schemes. Wife is a scientist who passed on more financially lucrative career paths to instead teach the next generation of scientists - female scientists, in particular - and she laments that there will be a whole generation of daughters who will grow up thinking the only thing a woman can do is sell makeup (or candles, or whatever) on Facebook.
I think they mostly avoid the subject when they chat on the phone.
posted by jal0021 at 7:26 PM on October 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I have a friend who's been sucked into Younique and it is NON. STOP. SELLING. SUPER IRRITATING. And she must spend hours a day just posting stupid shit on facebook about mascara, it's unreal. (And yes, per soren_lorensen, she's quite privileged, I have no idea why she drank the koolaid.)
I have another friend who is a fucking rich-people dermatologist (and her husband is a fucking rich-people surgeon) who is selling MLM skincare and constantly posting about "changing lives" with it on facebook and I swear it must be an ethical violation but there you are. And I don't even understand why! They make hella money and outright own their 6-bedroom house (look, it's a small town, people know things), so I do not get the appeal to non-stop pitching your friends and family on a pyramid scam.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:38 PM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I have another friend who is a fucking rich-people dermatologist (and her husband is a fucking rich-people surgeon) who is selling MLM skincare and constantly posting about "changing lives" with it on facebook and I swear it must be an ethical violation but there you are. And I don't even understand why! They make hella money and outright own their 6-bedroom house (look, it's a small town, people know things), so I do not get the appeal to non-stop pitching your friends and family on a pyramid scam.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:38 PM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Said friend is smart, level-headed and already has years of experience running a reasonably successful small business, so I assume she knows what she's doing.
If the product itself is decent (there's no sign that Younique is, but some of the others are - I like Jamberry's nail things, and the prices seem reasonable for what you get from them), and you don't believe that a few videos and the occasional "oh hey I have a sale" post on your facebook will substitute for a 9-5 job's income, it can be a fine side-income stream. And if a seller gets lucky and actually finds a local market that wants the product and doesn't want the hassles of managing the order system and all that, it can be a bit more than that. (Most people who did Avon used it for side money. A few got job-level income from it.)
As to why they don't all get shut down - It gets really hard to tell the difference between "MLM scheme" and "standard business distribution system" where there can be several layers between the final customer and the manufacturer. And exhorting new "business owners" to "invest" a bit more until their business "takes off" isn't illegal in itself.
The solution is sites like MLM buster site, and more general info about running a business: what are your costs; who is making money from your expenses; why should your customers/clients buy from you instead of (Amazon) someone else; what rate of return can you expect, and if you don't make that much, when should you quit?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:45 PM on October 6, 2017
If the product itself is decent (there's no sign that Younique is, but some of the others are - I like Jamberry's nail things, and the prices seem reasonable for what you get from them), and you don't believe that a few videos and the occasional "oh hey I have a sale" post on your facebook will substitute for a 9-5 job's income, it can be a fine side-income stream. And if a seller gets lucky and actually finds a local market that wants the product and doesn't want the hassles of managing the order system and all that, it can be a bit more than that. (Most people who did Avon used it for side money. A few got job-level income from it.)
As to why they don't all get shut down - It gets really hard to tell the difference between "MLM scheme" and "standard business distribution system" where there can be several layers between the final customer and the manufacturer. And exhorting new "business owners" to "invest" a bit more until their business "takes off" isn't illegal in itself.
The solution is sites like MLM buster site, and more general info about running a business: what are your costs; who is making money from your expenses; why should your customers/clients buy from you instead of (Amazon) someone else; what rate of return can you expect, and if you don't make that much, when should you quit?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:45 PM on October 6, 2017
This recent post on how someone who was going to lose their "presenter" "status" with Younique posted in a closed Facebook group for support and.... got over a dozen offers to join yet a bunch of different MLMs that supposedly sell items that are less market saturated. AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:53 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:53 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh, my MLM experience involves a hit of acid and less than a day's worth of programming ( Business BASIC ) back in the very early 90's. This guy just fails upwards. Until being shut down by the fraud lawsuits
At the time, my regular gig was with a guy -- if you can believe it -- even shadier ( "Dave" ) , BUT I had him paying me Friday morning FOR THAT WEEK before I rolled up to that client's site ( High Tech PTFE stuff, I wrote order and invoicing code. ) , so if he didn't have my money ready, I didn't work that Friday. The way he was billing, he didn't LOSE any money the one time he tried that, "I only have 1/2 of it" shit, but he didn't make a dime of my work that week.
Eventually "Dave" would make sure there was a $200 check and $400 in cash or some shit. I went to the copier and copied it all, so when the IRS busted him, my plan was to go to the IRS, "Here's my records..."
Anyway, the one day was with this knucklehead.
(Forbes 2003)
Raniere says by the end of 1993 he had sold $1 billion in goods and services, employed 80 people and had a quarter-million believers paying him $19 a month to hawk his goods. He claims he was worth $50 million. Yet he appeared to carry no money, says Bremner, adding that Raniere seemed to sleep all day, rolled into his office around 10 p.m. and sometimes held meetings at 1 a.m. Business flagged, debt ballooned and customers complained. Regulators in 20 states began to investigate. In 1993 the New York attorney general filed a civil suit alleging Consumers’ Buyline was a pyramid scheme. Without admitting wrongdoing, Raniere settled for $40,000, of which he has paid only $9,000. He says he can’t pay the rest, though he also says his ample finances let him live on savings.
A year later Raniere created another multilevel outfit, National Health Network, which sold vitamins. He and his then-girlfriend, Toni Natalie, set up a health food shop in Clifton Park, N.Y. One day in 1997 Raniere met the woman who would become his business partner, Nancy Salzman. She is a nurse and therapist who has studied hypnosis and neurolinguistic programming, by which therapists examine and mimic a person’s language and speech patterns to alter behavior. (Raniere has studied this, too.)posted by mikelieman at 11:08 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
At the time, my regular gig was with a guy -- if you can believe it -- even shadier ( "Dave" ) , BUT I had him paying me Friday morning FOR THAT WEEK before I rolled up to that client's site ( High Tech PTFE stuff, I wrote order and invoicing code. ) , so if he didn't have my money ready, I didn't work that Friday. The way he was billing, he didn't LOSE any money the one time he tried that, "I only have 1/2 of it" shit, but he didn't make a dime of my work that week.
Eventually "Dave" would make sure there was a $200 check and $400 in cash or some shit. I went to the copier and copied it all, so when the IRS busted him, my plan was to go to the IRS, "Here's my records..."
Anyway, the one day was with this knucklehead.
(Forbes 2003)
...
In 1990 Raniere decided to apply his theory to his new business, Consumers’ Buyline, a multilevel marketing program near Albany that promised lucrative commissions to old customers for recruiting new ones. He barnstormed the nation promoting discounts on groceries, dishwashers and even hotel stays, stoking crowds of a thousand pumped-up and profit-hungry people. “He was like a mythological figure–the guy with the 240 IQ was coming to town,” says Robert Bremner, a former distributor for the outfit.
Raniere says by the end of 1993 he had sold $1 billion in goods and services, employed 80 people and had a quarter-million believers paying him $19 a month to hawk his goods. He claims he was worth $50 million. Yet he appeared to carry no money, says Bremner, adding that Raniere seemed to sleep all day, rolled into his office around 10 p.m. and sometimes held meetings at 1 a.m. Business flagged, debt ballooned and customers complained. Regulators in 20 states began to investigate. In 1993 the New York attorney general filed a civil suit alleging Consumers’ Buyline was a pyramid scheme. Without admitting wrongdoing, Raniere settled for $40,000, of which he has paid only $9,000. He says he can’t pay the rest, though he also says his ample finances let him live on savings.
A year later Raniere created another multilevel outfit, National Health Network, which sold vitamins. He and his then-girlfriend, Toni Natalie, set up a health food shop in Clifton Park, N.Y. One day in 1997 Raniere met the woman who would become his business partner, Nancy Salzman. She is a nurse and therapist who has studied hypnosis and neurolinguistic programming, by which therapists examine and mimic a person’s language and speech patterns to alter behavior. (Raniere has studied this, too.)posted by mikelieman at 11:08 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
As observed from my wealthy high school acquaintances on Facebook, Monat seems to be the thing sweeping Connecticut right now. It's all fun and games until you get to the financially constrained acquaintances-of-acquaintances, and then it's predatory.
My partner just asked how it was possible that people couldn't see that this was a scam. My theory was that there are some people who are easily drawn along by a pack mentality (flockers), and others who are not (indies). MLMs appeal to flockers, and combined with an unfavorable economic climate and few other options, people are willing to believe in a fantasy.
I'd imagine that metafilter draws indies, and we are indies. My partner does not evangelize about things. We're not afraid to go to events alone, or do things that aren't considered normal. As an extreme, I find Seattle soccer unappealingly militant, but some people really like that feeling.
I once went to a fitness class that was very well-researched, well-planned, and well-supervised, but it still had enormous trouble growing its clientele precisely because its offering appealed to indies. I dragged in one friend, then left, and I highly doubt he's brought in anyone else. I think the trainer couldn't understand why we were so shy about bringing in our entire offices to come in.
posted by batter_my_heart at 12:30 AM on October 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
My partner just asked how it was possible that people couldn't see that this was a scam. My theory was that there are some people who are easily drawn along by a pack mentality (flockers), and others who are not (indies). MLMs appeal to flockers, and combined with an unfavorable economic climate and few other options, people are willing to believe in a fantasy.
I'd imagine that metafilter draws indies, and we are indies. My partner does not evangelize about things. We're not afraid to go to events alone, or do things that aren't considered normal. As an extreme, I find Seattle soccer unappealingly militant, but some people really like that feeling.
I once went to a fitness class that was very well-researched, well-planned, and well-supervised, but it still had enormous trouble growing its clientele precisely because its offering appealed to indies. I dragged in one friend, then left, and I highly doubt he's brought in anyone else. I think the trainer couldn't understand why we were so shy about bringing in our entire offices to come in.
posted by batter_my_heart at 12:30 AM on October 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
I haven't read anything so breathlessly in a long time. It reminded me of LJ! What a completely bonkers experience. I feel so sorry for Elle and her friends because of all the casual bullying.
posted by Calzephyr at 6:03 AM on October 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Calzephyr at 6:03 AM on October 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've been on giffgaff for years and never had a text or email from them to sign up my friends. Maybe check your notification settings?
The recommend-a-friend deals are everywhere, but I think most people forget they exist, so it's one of those offers that sound fantastic (free money!) but don't cost much to the company. They're not MLM.
Someone I know job was to work with service users to help them have a say in how those services were run. Important work to help people who've maybe not had a voice before have a say, and working with the people running those services to make them listen. She's now using those same facilitation skills to run her MLM business. I noticed recently she's started selling herself as a mentor. (To be clear, not to the vulnerable service users we used to work with). I keep thinking, she must know it's a con, surely? She must think she can beat the game, but exploit people along the way. Ugh.
posted by Helga-woo at 7:37 AM on October 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
The recommend-a-friend deals are everywhere, but I think most people forget they exist, so it's one of those offers that sound fantastic (free money!) but don't cost much to the company. They're not MLM.
Someone I know job was to work with service users to help them have a say in how those services were run. Important work to help people who've maybe not had a voice before have a say, and working with the people running those services to make them listen. She's now using those same facilitation skills to run her MLM business. I noticed recently she's started selling herself as a mentor. (To be clear, not to the vulnerable service users we used to work with). I keep thinking, she must know it's a con, surely? She must think she can beat the game, but exploit people along the way. Ugh.
posted by Helga-woo at 7:37 AM on October 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Ah, so that's why my cousin's wife went bonkers posting selfies about her lip gloss on FB about two years ago. No idea if she's kept up with it, I purged all family members soon after. Her MIL was super into Amway in the 80s and 90s though.
posted by elsietheeel at 8:25 AM on October 7, 2017
posted by elsietheeel at 8:25 AM on October 7, 2017
SIL is doing R&F and has been for the last few years. Driving! Me! Crazy! with the FB posts. I can't escape them, it would seem, because family. I've unfollowed everyone else who advertises their MLM scam on FB, but what do you do when pics of your nieces and nephews are interspersed with ads for getting my skin in order by buying her stuff? Arghhhh.
She too has insisted that she's not doing it to make a profit, but only because she So! Believes! in the Product!
Whatever man. I can't understand it. This woman has a useful degree from a prestigious university, and always seems overwhelmed with the demands of high-pressure upper middle class suburban mommyhood, and had a part time gig consulting for her former employer. She doesn't need money, as they're basically millionaires. wtf and a half.
posted by RedEmma at 9:25 AM on October 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
She too has insisted that she's not doing it to make a profit, but only because she So! Believes! in the Product!
Whatever man. I can't understand it. This woman has a useful degree from a prestigious university, and always seems overwhelmed with the demands of high-pressure upper middle class suburban mommyhood, and had a part time gig consulting for her former employer. She doesn't need money, as they're basically millionaires. wtf and a half.
posted by RedEmma at 9:25 AM on October 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Are participants in these schemes considered to be "employed"? The women's labor participation rate is already way down since 2000, but could it be even lower than we realize?
posted by Ralston McTodd at 10:02 AM on October 7, 2017
posted by Ralston McTodd at 10:02 AM on October 7, 2017
I became fascinated with reading about MLM's after a brief brush with LuLaRoe (buying, not selling, fortunately), so I joined a couple of anti-MLM groups of Facebook. Some of the stuff the people post there is beyond belief. One woman in the group had a baby who died or a congenital birth defect one week after his birth; she posted a screenshot of a message from a friend saying, “I’m so sorry to hear about your sweet baby boy! If you need something to take your mind off it, come and join my team for Rodan + Fields!” accompanied by a zillion emojis, of course. It was horrifying, although part of me wants to feel sorry for someone who is so desperate as to see the death of an week-old infant as a sales opportunity.
posted by holborne at 10:45 AM on October 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by holborne at 10:45 AM on October 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
I have a close friend who sells Jamberry on the side. Definitely not enough to live off, but a little extra money toward bills, and it helps her depression to have fun nails.
I love Jamberry's myself, they last for ages, so when one of those 'sign up as a Hobbyist' discount sales came up, another friend and I went halves.
We don't have to sell to anyone (though we can if we like. We do not like.) but we get the seller discount, which works out for us given the amount we were buying together. So it works okay for the three of us, and I'm jazzed with my rad nails.
That said, even signing up as a Hobbyist got me put in the Facebook groups for sellers and it really is an eye-opener. A HEAVY push to always do more, recruit more, try new selling/engagement techniques. And always in the most saccharine, apple-pie tones.
I'm not a Joiner, so these have no effect on me really, but I can see how the 'Ra ra ra! Let's work as a team, girls, every sale helps us all!' style could feel either like pressure or, to those more looking for community, like a necessary price of entry and acceptance.
posted by pseudonymph at 3:18 AM on October 8, 2017
I love Jamberry's myself, they last for ages, so when one of those 'sign up as a Hobbyist' discount sales came up, another friend and I went halves.
We don't have to sell to anyone (though we can if we like. We do not like.) but we get the seller discount, which works out for us given the amount we were buying together. So it works okay for the three of us, and I'm jazzed with my rad nails.
That said, even signing up as a Hobbyist got me put in the Facebook groups for sellers and it really is an eye-opener. A HEAVY push to always do more, recruit more, try new selling/engagement techniques. And always in the most saccharine, apple-pie tones.
I'm not a Joiner, so these have no effect on me really, but I can see how the 'Ra ra ra! Let's work as a team, girls, every sale helps us all!' style could feel either like pressure or, to those more looking for community, like a necessary price of entry and acceptance.
posted by pseudonymph at 3:18 AM on October 8, 2017
I didn't even know that jamberry and lularoe were like this until now. I have a couple of friends who like buying them (not selling, whew) and thought they were just regular shit. Guess I know better now.
I had a near-MLM experience in early college though. I was in really bad shape financially and doing all kinds of shit to make rent. It was at that time that a friend invited me to a free makeover party. She wasn't into the thing, but someone else had passed on a voucher or something, and a rep was going to come to her house and do makeovers for everyone.
I'm not really a makeover person (I hate people touching my face, I'm INTENSELY picky about my cosmetics, and when it comes to stuff that goes on my skin I'm not very adventurous) but she didn't seem to have a lot of people going, and I liked hanging out with her, so I figured it'd be a fun afternoon regardless, and I could always just say no thanks to the actual makeover part.
Well, I did say no to that. The other three girls got their makeovers done. We chatted with the rep, and I look back on this now and feel so dumb, but I remember thinking I was terribly clever at the time when I asked her, "so what's it like doing this kind of work?"
I want to reiterate, I thought I was super cool and clever and maybe a bit edgy for veering off the topic of the product and onto the topic of the rep's work overall.
I ask myself now if she somehow led me there, and made me think I'd gotten there by myself? I don't remember, but now I know she had to have been just thrilled beyond belief that I went there.
Her shit sounded so good. She went on about all the rewards she's gotten for getting to the level she's at, she had the damn car and everything, set her own hours, etc.
I should have known when most of the rest of her time was spent talking about the job that that was what she wanted to talk about.
I remember sitting on the train home, daydreaming about what it would be like when I reached her level... thank heaven I lost interest when I realized how much it cost to get started. I was awake enough to go "wait a second, real jobs don't charge you to start working there" and promptly ignored her text messages thereafter.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 5:57 AM on October 8, 2017
I had a near-MLM experience in early college though. I was in really bad shape financially and doing all kinds of shit to make rent. It was at that time that a friend invited me to a free makeover party. She wasn't into the thing, but someone else had passed on a voucher or something, and a rep was going to come to her house and do makeovers for everyone.
I'm not really a makeover person (I hate people touching my face, I'm INTENSELY picky about my cosmetics, and when it comes to stuff that goes on my skin I'm not very adventurous) but she didn't seem to have a lot of people going, and I liked hanging out with her, so I figured it'd be a fun afternoon regardless, and I could always just say no thanks to the actual makeover part.
Well, I did say no to that. The other three girls got their makeovers done. We chatted with the rep, and I look back on this now and feel so dumb, but I remember thinking I was terribly clever at the time when I asked her, "so what's it like doing this kind of work?"
I want to reiterate, I thought I was super cool and clever and maybe a bit edgy for veering off the topic of the product and onto the topic of the rep's work overall.
I ask myself now if she somehow led me there, and made me think I'd gotten there by myself? I don't remember, but now I know she had to have been just thrilled beyond belief that I went there.
Her shit sounded so good. She went on about all the rewards she's gotten for getting to the level she's at, she had the damn car and everything, set her own hours, etc.
I should have known when most of the rest of her time was spent talking about the job that that was what she wanted to talk about.
I remember sitting on the train home, daydreaming about what it would be like when I reached her level... thank heaven I lost interest when I realized how much it cost to get started. I was awake enough to go "wait a second, real jobs don't charge you to start working there" and promptly ignored her text messages thereafter.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 5:57 AM on October 8, 2017
I have a close friend who sells Jamberry on the side.
See, I don't get this at all. I like nail art, and I went to the Jamberry website and looked through their stuff, and I would probably buy some of it myself. I might even sign up to be a "Hobbyist" or whatever to get the money back for buying my own nail stickers. But I can't understand why anyone else would be motivated to buy from me when they could just go to the website themselves and do the same thing.
posted by chainsofreedom at 6:39 AM on October 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
See, I don't get this at all. I like nail art, and I went to the Jamberry website and looked through their stuff, and I would probably buy some of it myself. I might even sign up to be a "Hobbyist" or whatever to get the money back for buying my own nail stickers. But I can't understand why anyone else would be motivated to buy from me when they could just go to the website themselves and do the same thing.
posted by chainsofreedom at 6:39 AM on October 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
I had a near-Amway experience in college. I was about to head off to study abroad in China (it was the mid 90s so that was still a pretty unusual place for an American to go) and this dude who did not even attend my college but who I met on campus (red alert!) told me that since I was going to China he had a great business opportunity for me! Let's have a meeting and discuss!
I did meet with him despite immediately regretting saying yes. The business opportunity was taking Amway to China.
I'd never heard of Amway or mlms but everything about his pitch to me screamed scam. Scam scam scammy scam. I was looking for the doors within minutes. Also weird. Like, think about this stuff for one hot second. If this was such a great opportunity why wasn't this dude going to China? Why did he need a 19 year old college kid as, like, his mule?
Fast forward to present day: why does any product need to be distributed solely through networks of old college roommates and second cousins when the internet exists? (Answer: because the product isn't actually the product. The product is the marks in the downline.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:04 AM on October 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
I did meet with him despite immediately regretting saying yes. The business opportunity was taking Amway to China.
I'd never heard of Amway or mlms but everything about his pitch to me screamed scam. Scam scam scammy scam. I was looking for the doors within minutes. Also weird. Like, think about this stuff for one hot second. If this was such a great opportunity why wasn't this dude going to China? Why did he need a 19 year old college kid as, like, his mule?
Fast forward to present day: why does any product need to be distributed solely through networks of old college roommates and second cousins when the internet exists? (Answer: because the product isn't actually the product. The product is the marks in the downline.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:04 AM on October 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
With the people who don't financially need the money MLMs bring in (or say they'll bring in, because few people make anything like a living wage from MLMs) - I wonder how much the promised social connection is part of it? The love-bombing and relentless optimism - Bright-Siding - might well have an irresistible appeal to people who have trouble making friends and intimate connections. It can be hard for adults to make friends, and if you don't want to go to church or join an interest group/book club/etc., I can see where a MLM might appear, at first, to fill the void.
Of course they don't - they merely exploit that void.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:29 AM on October 8, 2017
Of course they don't - they merely exploit that void.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:29 AM on October 8, 2017
See, I don't get this at all. I like nail art, and I went to the Jamberry website and looked through their stuff, and I would probably buy some of it myself. I might even sign up to be a "Hobbyist" or whatever to get the money back for buying my own nail stickers. But I can't understand why anyone else would be motivated to buy from me when they could just go to the website themselves and do the same thing.
The MLMs have an answer to this: why would you want to do that instead of supporting your friends by buying from them? You want to help women take care of their families, don’t you? Of course you do! You don’t want to take food out of their children's mouths, do you? Of course you don’t!
It’s just another way these companies prey on women — suggest that they don’t care about families if they don’t buy whatever the consultants are peddling.
posted by holborne at 12:33 PM on October 9, 2017
The MLMs have an answer to this: why would you want to do that instead of supporting your friends by buying from them? You want to help women take care of their families, don’t you? Of course you do! You don’t want to take food out of their children's mouths, do you? Of course you don’t!
It’s just another way these companies prey on women — suggest that they don’t care about families if they don’t buy whatever the consultants are peddling.
posted by holborne at 12:33 PM on October 9, 2017
These things fascinate me as a phenomenon, in part because they're apparently so ubiquitous in many people's social circles and as far as I can tell, utterly absent in mine. I've never been asked to buy anything or added to a group, and a Facebook search for some of the apparently common brands in my friends' statuses didn't turn anything up beyond a few of them liking friend-of-friends' posts.
Not really sure why that is. My best guesses are either that it's less common in big cities or that I just don't know a lot of SAHMs.
posted by eponym at 5:22 PM on October 9, 2017
Not really sure why that is. My best guesses are either that it's less common in big cities or that I just don't know a lot of SAHMs.
posted by eponym at 5:22 PM on October 9, 2017
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posted by rewil at 1:24 PM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]