DnDish: simplifying D&D (you know, for kids)
November 17, 2017 10:08 AM Subscribe
Kevin Makice (@kmakice) is a geek dad who tried to get his boys into Dungeons and Dragons with a 4th Edition starter kit, but they lost interest due to all the nuanced rules, but they liked their dad's painted miniatures. So he set about simplifying D&D and made a pared down version of the game he loved in a 3 page PDF: DnDish. The game worked for his 7-12 year olds, with the kids making their own campaigns.
Bonus free game via comments: Lady Blackbird (linked previously), an adventure module for 2-6 people from One Seven Design, who have more free games to play (and test).
Also previously: Just add dice (which you can also DIY with paper or moldable materials)
Bonus free game via comments: Lady Blackbird (linked previously), an adventure module for 2-6 people from One Seven Design, who have more free games to play (and test).
Also previously: Just add dice (which you can also DIY with paper or moldable materials)
I read "DnDish" and I don't think "Ah, this is a game that is sort of like DnD." Instead, I think "Ah, this is a fantasy role-playing game focused on the acquisition and skilled promulgation of gossip."
I would like to play that game
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:21 AM on November 17, 2017 [53 favorites]
I would like to play that game
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:21 AM on November 17, 2017 [53 favorites]
Ooooooh... my 8 year old found my old 3rd edition Monstrous Compendium and asked about what it was. I pulled out some old character sheets and told him it was a game. He wanted to play.
It took me a really really long time to browse through the player and DM handbooks enough to be able to set up a simple one-scene "attack the monster" scenario (seriously, the books go on and on about how many hit dice a monster can have, but it took me FOREVER to find any statement of WHAT die you roll for the hit dice - it was so entrenched in the game knowledge of the day that it didn't occur to the book authors to define it!?)
The kid rolled a natural 20 and the scene was over in that one throw. So I set up another... and he rolled a 20. Now he wants to play. DnDish might be right up his alley, and certainly easier than me spending the next 3 weeks re-reading the DM guide to remember how to play a game I haven't seriously thought about in 20 years...
posted by caution live frogs at 10:26 AM on November 17, 2017 [13 favorites]
It took me a really really long time to browse through the player and DM handbooks enough to be able to set up a simple one-scene "attack the monster" scenario (seriously, the books go on and on about how many hit dice a monster can have, but it took me FOREVER to find any statement of WHAT die you roll for the hit dice - it was so entrenched in the game knowledge of the day that it didn't occur to the book authors to define it!?)
The kid rolled a natural 20 and the scene was over in that one throw. So I set up another... and he rolled a 20. Now he wants to play. DnDish might be right up his alley, and certainly easier than me spending the next 3 weeks re-reading the DM guide to remember how to play a game I haven't seriously thought about in 20 years...
posted by caution live frogs at 10:26 AM on November 17, 2017 [13 favorites]
It's inteesting to me how role playing games have bifurcated. On one side you have something like DnDish, a simple system whose primary purpose is to let people tell stories together and have fun. On the other side you have elaborately complex games with zillions of mechanics and systems. Computer games are great at this. Those technical games are more fun for me, particularly a solitary kind of fun where I'm trying to figure out the rules and how to best "win" with them. But it's the complete opposite of "let's have fun making up adventure stories".
posted by Nelson at 10:29 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 10:29 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's been decades but my first introduction to D&D was through the Basic Set.
Wasn't the purpose of that to address this very gap? Perhaps some more knowledgable folks can explain.
posted by vacapinta at 10:33 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]
Wasn't the purpose of that to address this very gap? Perhaps some more knowledgable folks can explain.
posted by vacapinta at 10:33 AM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]
From Lady Blackbird: It’s only a matter of time before they discover the outstanding warrants and learn that The Owl is owned by none other than the infamous outcast, Cyrus Vance.
Unfortunately in the real world Cy Vance won reelection campaign again
posted by grobstein at 10:43 AM on November 17, 2017
Unfortunately in the real world Cy Vance won reelection campaign again
posted by grobstein at 10:43 AM on November 17, 2017
The Basic Set looks more geared for young teens, maybe up through adult novices who might be daunted by tomes of rules, but don't get dissuaded by a 48 page rule book (which is still pretty thick for people used to basic boardgames). DnDish seems to be geared towards pre-teens, kids who want to play games but have patience for some guidelines and rules.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:45 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 10:45 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Awesome. I had some luck playing Monster Slayers: The Heroes of Hesiod with my five year old niece.
posted by imelcapitan at 10:53 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by imelcapitan at 10:53 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]
DnDish looks fine, but you'd need someone to explain more to you, or have a general knowledge of RP games already to use it.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 10:56 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by jeff-o-matic at 10:56 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's inteesting to me how role playing games have bifurcated. On one side you have something like DnDish, a simple system whose primary purpose is to let people tell stories together and have fun. On the other side you have elaborately complex games with zillions of mechanics and systems.
When I played D&D, we sort of straddled both sides. The customized ruleset and mechanics we used got to the point that my DM screen was just a cardboard frame I had taped over with custom tables and charts. It was a ridiculous bastardization of Basic/Expert/Companion set rules with AD&D bits shoehorned into odd places.
Who am I kidding? We definitely were more on the storytelling side of things.
posted by linux at 10:56 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
When I played D&D, we sort of straddled both sides. The customized ruleset and mechanics we used got to the point that my DM screen was just a cardboard frame I had taped over with custom tables and charts. It was a ridiculous bastardization of Basic/Expert/Companion set rules with AD&D bits shoehorned into odd places.
Who am I kidding? We definitely were more on the storytelling side of things.
posted by linux at 10:56 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
I also started with the Basic Set, but back then it wasn't just a gap filler, it was a fork - as I recall AD&D had a sufficiently different set of rules so that if you wanted to move to that path you had to not only learn new rules but you had to forget the old versions of them. There were advanced D&D (which was *not* the same as Advanced D&D) rules in the Expert set (and other sets; my group only made it to Expert) but it was really two different game versions.
IMHO the Pathfinder Beginner Box is fantastic at actually being a gap filler - a small magazine-sized handbook with enough of the rules for players to get started, another of the same size with enough for a GM to get started, plus a "choose-your-own-adventure" style mini-adventure for players to practice on alone and a standard style adventure for a GM with a group. My then-grade-school nieces loved it.
What thwarted us afterward and dismayed me, though, is that there just wasn't any equally-high-quality and equally-kid-friendly adventure material to choose from afterward. The Pathfinder Adventure Paths were too adult and dark for kids. The Pathfinder Society scenarios I looked at (which may not have been representative; there were tons) were too bland, fight-by-the-numbers.
I don't want to criticize, honestly, because (as I discovered when I finally spent many hours coming up with their next adventure from scratch) it is just hard to come up with a story where the most basic game mechanic is "kill before you're killed" but where the story role-playing around that mechanic is child-friendly.
posted by roystgnr at 10:58 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
IMHO the Pathfinder Beginner Box is fantastic at actually being a gap filler - a small magazine-sized handbook with enough of the rules for players to get started, another of the same size with enough for a GM to get started, plus a "choose-your-own-adventure" style mini-adventure for players to practice on alone and a standard style adventure for a GM with a group. My then-grade-school nieces loved it.
What thwarted us afterward and dismayed me, though, is that there just wasn't any equally-high-quality and equally-kid-friendly adventure material to choose from afterward. The Pathfinder Adventure Paths were too adult and dark for kids. The Pathfinder Society scenarios I looked at (which may not have been representative; there were tons) were too bland, fight-by-the-numbers.
I don't want to criticize, honestly, because (as I discovered when I finally spent many hours coming up with their next adventure from scratch) it is just hard to come up with a story where the most basic game mechanic is "kill before you're killed" but where the story role-playing around that mechanic is child-friendly.
posted by roystgnr at 10:58 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
Another newer Monster Slayers campaign: Champions of the Elements (also free!)
posted by sleeping bear at 10:59 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by sleeping bear at 10:59 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]
There are a million of these alternate takes on D&D, and this does not look like a particularly well implemented one, though I’m glancing over it on my phone so I could be giving it short shrift. If I remember before I get a “fucking Al Franken” bender on after work today I’ll see if I can dig up the D&D for kids clone that I ran across a while back that did actually seem well implemented.
posted by Caduceus at 10:59 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Caduceus at 10:59 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
Monster Slayers: The Heroes of Hesiod looks great!
You could easily adapt it into more of a dungeon crawl by having the players explore. I also like that they made the characters sexless in names and looks. It just works.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 11:04 AM on November 17, 2017
You could easily adapt it into more of a dungeon crawl by having the players explore. I also like that they made the characters sexless in names and looks. It just works.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 11:04 AM on November 17, 2017
run feng shui, reflavor for dnd instead of magic or anti-magic time travelling hong kong action movie heroes or inexplicably omnicidal chimps, bam
posted by hleehowon at 11:05 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by hleehowon at 11:05 AM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
Also, if you want to play D&D with kids but are uncomfortable with the violent core of modern versions, I recommend a version with rules for reaction rolls. In most implementations creatures that aren’t undead, demons, or mindless predators will only attack on sight one out of 36 times, so there are way more opportunities to parley with creatures you encounter. Also use a version that gives xp for gold rather than only for killing monsters. XP rewards should be split evenly among all characters even if the gold is not to prevent incentives to steal from other PCs.
posted by Caduceus at 11:08 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Caduceus at 11:08 AM on November 17, 2017 [6 favorites]
I’ll see if I can dig up the D&D for kids clone that ran across a while back that did actually seem well implemented.
That would be great, thanks Caduceus! My wife brought up playing with our 6 year old boy, so I went searching, and here we are.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:09 AM on November 17, 2017
That would be great, thanks Caduceus! My wife brought up playing with our 6 year old boy, so I went searching, and here we are.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:09 AM on November 17, 2017
This is awesome, actually. I'm going to a church family camp this weekend and trying to think of a way to play D&D with some parents and kids in a way that won't trigger any satanic panic but will also be pretty fun.
Step 1: everyone's a paladin!
posted by sleeping bear at 11:11 AM on November 17, 2017 [7 favorites]
Step 1: everyone's a paladin!
posted by sleeping bear at 11:11 AM on November 17, 2017 [7 favorites]
Obligatory Dungeon World plug. It's first edition D&D reimagined using the Powered by the Apocalypse system. One of the creators streams on Twitch.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 11:14 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 11:14 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]
The character sheet has simplified out "a place to draw your character"? What under-10 wouldn't be right in to drawing their character?
posted by Quindar Beep at 11:14 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Quindar Beep at 11:14 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
"Ah, this is a fantasy role-playing game focused on the acquisition and skilled promulgation of gossip."
"OMG, have you heard what the Beholder on level 4 saw last night!?"
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:21 AM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]
"OMG, have you heard what the Beholder on level 4 saw last night!?"
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:21 AM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]
> the acquisition and skilled promulgation of gossip.
That's basicly what the 4X game I'm developing in my spare time is about.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 11:22 AM on November 17, 2017 [7 favorites]
That's basicly what the 4X game I'm developing in my spare time is about.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 11:22 AM on November 17, 2017 [7 favorites]
Quindar Beep: The character sheet has simplified out "a place to draw your character"? What under-10 wouldn't be right in to drawing their character?
Well, there's a back to that page, right? :)
Anyway, Kevin wrote about some of the mechanisms that he didn't fold into the 3 page PDF in his discussion of the game on Wired:
jeff-o-matic: DnDish looks fine, but you'd need someone to explain more to you, or have a general knowledge of RP games already to use it.
Yeah, Kevin's write-up makes it seem like something created by a fan and (former) player of D&D as the dungeon/game master (D/GM). Actually, reading his article fills in some gaps for how to use the guide. A guide to the guide, if you will.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:24 AM on November 17, 2017
Well, there's a back to that page, right? :)
Anyway, Kevin wrote about some of the mechanisms that he didn't fold into the 3 page PDF in his discussion of the game on Wired:
I do require the kids playing my game to journal as they go. With each encounter, they jot down notes about what happened, who was encountered, and what was earned. I invite them to sketch the adventure, giving them something to do when the circumstances focus on a couple players. As the master, I do this as well. These journals are what ultimately will reconcile issues of memory and consistency.
jeff-o-matic: DnDish looks fine, but you'd need someone to explain more to you, or have a general knowledge of RP games already to use it.
Yeah, Kevin's write-up makes it seem like something created by a fan and (former) player of D&D as the dungeon/game master (D/GM). Actually, reading his article fills in some gaps for how to use the guide. A guide to the guide, if you will.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:24 AM on November 17, 2017
Matt Colville's First Dungeon is a great natural fit for this. That's a link to a 12 min video about running the first adventure, with links to maps and other resources. You can do this tonight for free if you so want. DnDish would work great for this.
posted by bonehead at 11:42 AM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 11:42 AM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is interesting, but it's worth noting this is from 2011, and a lot has changed since then. The D&D 5e Starter Set makes it pretty easy to get into the game with pregenerated characters, dice, rules, and an adventure for under $20.
The OSR movement has launched countless simplified variations on D&D. I actually found this one pretty confusing and half-baked… I'm sure it worked as a reference for someone who already had a homebrew game in their head, but it does not explain a lot of things clearly. How do you assign ability scores? Is the ability bonus different from the ability score? What number do you need to hit to succeed at a task? How much damage does a successful attack do? How does magic or equipment work mechanically? What does a combat with a creature look like? Why is "tallying" your inventory one of your three main types of action?
Off the top of my head, here are a few more refined & usable minimalist D&D derivatives:
The OSR movement has launched countless simplified variations on D&D. I actually found this one pretty confusing and half-baked… I'm sure it worked as a reference for someone who already had a homebrew game in their head, but it does not explain a lot of things clearly. How do you assign ability scores? Is the ability bonus different from the ability score? What number do you need to hit to succeed at a task? How much damage does a successful attack do? How does magic or equipment work mechanically? What does a combat with a creature look like? Why is "tallying" your inventory one of your three main types of action?
Off the top of my head, here are a few more refined & usable minimalist D&D derivatives:
- Searchers of the Unknown
- 1974 Style
- Into the Odd
- Maze Rats
- Beyond the Wall
- Here's Some Fuckin' D&D
- Microlite20
Unfortunately in the real world Cy Vance won reelection campaign again
I feel like there's a lesson to be learned (or not) there about not accepting unopposed campaigns, and about definitely not waiting until late at night on the eve of the election for one of two major write-in candidates to drop out and endorse the other one, but here we are.
I like the idea of DnDish. I run a 5e campaign, myself, but know very, very little of the actual rules (one of my players joked today that my knowledge is wikipedic.) I trust everybody to know how their own characters work and to be honest, and I'll know how my universe operates and obey the monster manual. We get by just fine.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:01 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
I feel like there's a lesson to be learned (or not) there about not accepting unopposed campaigns, and about definitely not waiting until late at night on the eve of the election for one of two major write-in candidates to drop out and endorse the other one, but here we are.
I like the idea of DnDish. I run a 5e campaign, myself, but know very, very little of the actual rules (one of my players joked today that my knowledge is wikipedic.) I trust everybody to know how their own characters work and to be honest, and I'll know how my universe operates and obey the monster manual. We get by just fine.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:01 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
On the subject of RPGs aimed at kids, I'll put in a good word for "No Thank You Evil!" from Monte Cook Games.
posted by Ipsifendus at 12:05 PM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Ipsifendus at 12:05 PM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]
> the acquisition and skilled promulgation of gossip.
That's basicly what the 4X game I'm developing in my spare time is about.
You can't just leave us hanging like that. I demand links and a dev-diary!
posted by Balna Watya at 12:06 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
That's basicly what the 4X game I'm developing in my spare time is about.
You can't just leave us hanging like that. I demand links and a dev-diary!
posted by Balna Watya at 12:06 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Obligatory Swords and Wizardry mention.
I wish I'd gotten in on this edition, via Kickstarter. DANG IT.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:06 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
I wish I'd gotten in on this edition, via Kickstarter. DANG IT.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:06 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
Scan through a bunch of pictures. let them find one they like. Talk to them about classes. Let the one who reads read a ton about their class. Let the one that doesn't quite yet read be a elven princess acrobat. Answer questions. Roll the dice. They hit when the number is big, they miss when the number is small. Lie to your kids that they hit when the number is in the middle and they are enjoying it.
So far my kids love it.
posted by Nanukthedog at 12:14 PM on November 17, 2017 [15 favorites]
So far my kids love it.
posted by Nanukthedog at 12:14 PM on November 17, 2017 [15 favorites]
This is really cool! As a heads up, you may want to contact the mods to change the link with the text "set about simplifying D&D" - right now it just links to the Disqus comments rather than the Wired article.
posted by capricorn at 12:42 PM on November 17, 2017
posted by capricorn at 12:42 PM on November 17, 2017
I think Beyond the Wall is a pretty good one; it’s not specifically designed for kids, but it’s pretty simple and has a fun group character creation system that generates a bunch of young heroes who are all in fiction friends who have to save their village from whatever the threat is that the GM chooses.
I’m reasonably sure I have another one bookmarked at home that hasn’t been mentioned yet that seemed promising from a couple years back, when my sister in law was making noises about me running a game for her step kids, before they just joined a bunch of kids sports leagues instead and have no free time anymore. It’s possible it was No Thank You Evil from before they spruced up the website, but I’m not sure. I’ll find it in another few hours when I get home.
posted by Caduceus at 12:47 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
I’m reasonably sure I have another one bookmarked at home that hasn’t been mentioned yet that seemed promising from a couple years back, when my sister in law was making noises about me running a game for her step kids, before they just joined a bunch of kids sports leagues instead and have no free time anymore. It’s possible it was No Thank You Evil from before they spruced up the website, but I’m not sure. I’ll find it in another few hours when I get home.
posted by Caduceus at 12:47 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
DnDish looks fine, but you'd need someone to explain more to you, or have a general knowledge of RP games already to use it.
I've played D&D and even DMed a bit and I still found that PDF a bit confusing. I got Hero Kids a while ago to play with my kid, it's aimed a bit younger than this but it does a much better job of explaining how the game works for people who don't have much/any RPG experience.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:51 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've played D&D and even DMed a bit and I still found that PDF a bit confusing. I got Hero Kids a while ago to play with my kid, it's aimed a bit younger than this but it does a much better job of explaining how the game works for people who don't have much/any RPG experience.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:51 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
I actually found this one pretty confusing and half-baked… I'm sure it worked as a reference for someone who already had a homebrew game in their head, but it does not explain a lot of things clearly.
On the plus side, the writer isn't working for Milo Yiannopolis or Vox Day, so it's got that going for it.
But really, for a simple game I would go with Risus. It can even, as a person up above requested, have combat based around gossip.
posted by happyroach at 1:13 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
On the plus side, the writer isn't working for Milo Yiannopolis or Vox Day, so it's got that going for it.
But really, for a simple game I would go with Risus. It can even, as a person up above requested, have combat based around gossip.
posted by happyroach at 1:13 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Not precisely minimalist, but simplified, I recently discovered Basic Fantasy Role Playing Game, which is pretty awesome. You can get hardcopy illustrated versions of the books delivered to your house for less than the cost of a latte with tip.
posted by el io at 1:17 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by el io at 1:17 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Basic Fantasy Role Playing Game is a retro clone, and the PDF version is free. What's really cool is that the hard copy version is only five bucks and is available on Prime (free shipping). That's about as cheap an entry point as you're going to find, especially if you're a ref who wants to hand out a copy of the rules to each newbie player.
I've also seen numerous one page dungeons and one page rpgs all over the net. They aren't hard to track down at all.
For miniatures, while I haven't seen them recently, I have seen public domain drawn miniatures which can be downloaded and printed on card stock.
For rolling dice, I bet there are apps for that, so you could roll the numbers on your phone or tablet or laptop.
It's not a coincidence that the less is more approach is usually also the cheapest. This breaks down two barriers to bringing people into the hobby, the cost and the rules intimidation.
Great thread.
PS, One Page Dungeons is a big thing. There's actually a yearly contest and free pdfs. Many of them are brillaint.
posted by Beholder at 1:20 PM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]
I've also seen numerous one page dungeons and one page rpgs all over the net. They aren't hard to track down at all.
For miniatures, while I haven't seen them recently, I have seen public domain drawn miniatures which can be downloaded and printed on card stock.
For rolling dice, I bet there are apps for that, so you could roll the numbers on your phone or tablet or laptop.
It's not a coincidence that the less is more approach is usually also the cheapest. This breaks down two barriers to bringing people into the hobby, the cost and the rules intimidation.
Great thread.
PS, One Page Dungeons is a big thing. There's actually a yearly contest and free pdfs. Many of them are brillaint.
posted by Beholder at 1:20 PM on November 17, 2017 [5 favorites]
I am disappointed that DnDish is not about cooking or eating.
Unrelatedly, it's dinner time in my time zone.
posted by eviemath at 2:07 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Unrelatedly, it's dinner time in my time zone.
posted by eviemath at 2:07 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
> You can't just leave us hanging like that. I demand links and a dev-diary!
I'm still prototyping and learning how to build the pieces, so I haven't released anything yet, but now I'm motivated to keep a dev diary. My thesis is that modern 4X games are stagnating with a very limited concept of just how exploitative social structures can be, and I want to make a game that explores the genre in more depth than just nationalistic military industrial complex.
By making it a game about simulating and manipulating social networks, which I want to model using methods inspired from quantum field theory, I think I can create much more interesting spaces to explore.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 2:24 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm still prototyping and learning how to build the pieces, so I haven't released anything yet, but now I'm motivated to keep a dev diary. My thesis is that modern 4X games are stagnating with a very limited concept of just how exploitative social structures can be, and I want to make a game that explores the genre in more depth than just nationalistic military industrial complex.
By making it a game about simulating and manipulating social networks, which I want to model using methods inspired from quantum field theory, I think I can create much more interesting spaces to explore.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 2:24 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
In fact, if anyone can recommend some good explanations of numerical methods for calculating scattering results, that would great!
posted by I-Write-Essays at 2:44 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 2:44 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Lots of great suggestions here. I've only played it with adults, but I once wrote a trivial RPG more or less in the genre of 'simplified D&D': Stick Figure Fantasy. I ran a group through the original Ravenloft module with just that page or so of rules, and it worked well--many fun scenes, tons of laughs, no disputes, etc.--though it did take a lot of time to prep drawings I could pull out as needed.
posted by cpound at 3:11 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by cpound at 3:11 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
If I were running stuff for kids*, I'd skip D&D and just do FATE.
(* I would do this regardless of the age group of the players in question. Age would just affect scenario content and focus, but in my late years GMing, I really came to appreciate environments where the players drove the story more.)
posted by mordax at 3:39 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
(* I would do this regardless of the age group of the players in question. Age would just affect scenario content and focus, but in my late years GMing, I really came to appreciate environments where the players drove the story more.)
posted by mordax at 3:39 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
+1 to EndsOfInvention's plug for Hero Kids.
posted by simra at 3:50 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by simra at 3:50 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
> If I were running stuff for kids*, I'd skip D&D and just do FATE.
Are you an Adventure Zone listener? They're using FATE for their ongoing "commitment" campaign.
posted by MengerSponge at 4:08 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Are you an Adventure Zone listener? They're using FATE for their ongoing "commitment" campaign.
posted by MengerSponge at 4:08 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Are you an Adventure Zone listener? They're using FATE for their ongoing "commitment" campaign.
I'm not, but that's awesome. :)
posted by mordax at 4:15 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm not, but that's awesome. :)
posted by mordax at 4:15 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also, to avoid abusing edit:
I've been out of the loop on gaming a few years now - I took up writing full time in 2013, and just don't have the creative juice to maintain the hobby anymore. I ran games for... 25 years or so though, and the longer I did it, the more convinced I became that players should participate more deeply in the narrative. You can do that with D&D, (and I certainly have), but I think it's easier to make games do things they were specifically designed for instead of kludging everything.
posted by mordax at 4:20 PM on November 17, 2017
I've been out of the loop on gaming a few years now - I took up writing full time in 2013, and just don't have the creative juice to maintain the hobby anymore. I ran games for... 25 years or so though, and the longer I did it, the more convinced I became that players should participate more deeply in the narrative. You can do that with D&D, (and I certainly have), but I think it's easier to make games do things they were specifically designed for instead of kludging everything.
posted by mordax at 4:20 PM on November 17, 2017
Anyone who likes Lady Blackbird’s systems and thinks cyberpunk would be a good setting swap should absolutely check out the free Always/Never/Now.
posted by juv3nal at 4:47 PM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by juv3nal at 4:47 PM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]
Hero Kids! That was the one! I was writing out a sad comment about how I couldn't find what I was thinking of, and then saw simra's comment right before I posted. That was definitely what I was thinking of.
Turns out I didn't buy it or have lost the file (which I think is unlikely), so I guess I can't actually say that I myself thought it was implemented well, but the reviews I read sounded good, but like it also might be aimed a little young for my step nephews, which I now recall was why I didn't buy it or keep the link. But if I wanted to do D&D for younger kids I would definitely purchase that and see if it met my standards.
posted by Caduceus at 4:51 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Turns out I didn't buy it or have lost the file (which I think is unlikely), so I guess I can't actually say that I myself thought it was implemented well, but the reviews I read sounded good, but like it also might be aimed a little young for my step nephews, which I now recall was why I didn't buy it or keep the link. But if I wanted to do D&D for younger kids I would definitely purchase that and see if it met my standards.
posted by Caduceus at 4:51 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also @I-Write-Essays have you seen Sol Trader? it’s not particularly 4x (though I think nominally you can get yourself elected galactic president), but it’s very much about leveraging procedurally generated gossip to learn other bits of procedurally generated gossip.
posted by juv3nal at 4:53 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by juv3nal at 4:53 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think D&D should be properly categorized as a wargame, with the narrative bits added on like makeup on a pig. However, some of the more narrative-driven game systems go too far in the other direction, because I -do- like wargames. The game system that really hits the sweet spot for me there is Burning Wheel.
Players state their character's beliefs and the GM is instructed to run the story by challenging those beliefs. It's a metagame resource system that feeds into the XP mechanics. There are lots of ways where players are incentivized to make their characters' lives hard, and defeat does not necessarily mean the end of the story. Nonetheless, it's very gamey, and not just a shared storytelling experience. The most important game mechanic is justifying being able to apply your skills and traits to add bonuses to die rolls based on how you describe your character doing things. The more of your abilities you can stack together, the better you do.
It's not a game I would recommend for children.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:54 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Players state their character's beliefs and the GM is instructed to run the story by challenging those beliefs. It's a metagame resource system that feeds into the XP mechanics. There are lots of ways where players are incentivized to make their characters' lives hard, and defeat does not necessarily mean the end of the story. Nonetheless, it's very gamey, and not just a shared storytelling experience. The most important game mechanic is justifying being able to apply your skills and traits to add bonuses to die rolls based on how you describe your character doing things. The more of your abilities you can stack together, the better you do.
It's not a game I would recommend for children.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:54 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also, if you want to play D&D with kids but are uncomfortable with the violent core of modern versions, I recommend a version with rules for reaction rolls. In most implementations creatures that aren’t undead, demons, or mindless predators will only attack on sight one out of 36 times, so there are way more opportunities to parley with creatures you encounter. Also use a version that gives xp for gold rather than only for killing monsters. XP rewards should be split evenly among all characters even if the gold is not to prevent incentives to steal from other PCs.
I've been out of the loop on gaming a few years now - I took up writing full time in 2013, and just don't have the creative juice to maintain the hobby anymore. I ran games for... 25 years or so though, and the longer I did it, the more convinced I became that players should participate more deeply in the narrative. You can do that with D&D, (and I certainly have), but I think it's easier to make games do things they were specifically designed for instead of kludging everything.
I got back into D&D last year after many years and several editions. One of the main reasons is because 5e is so much more flexible in how you play. My murderhobo days are long gone and older me is much more into narrative and storytelling. I've found 5e great for supporting this type of gameplay not only for myself as DM but in several of the games I've been playing for over a year. Doesn't even need a whole lot of variation or skipping core rules to get there.
XP is a good example. In older versions killing things was the primary way to get xp and level so much so that new players coming in think that's how you do it. However the lastest version has embraced the idea of context and encounter xp as an option. You get xp for completing some sort of goal no matter how you do it. Some don't even give out actual numbers to us players. They just let us know when we level. I've been playing 3 games online for almost a year and none of them give out xp every session. I love it as it takes emphasis off of killing everything to get the numbers to level. In these games you get the same if you avoid killing and find other ways to deal with the problem at hand.
Creating variations on rules and general mechanics in context of your specific games is encouraged. There are optional rules in the core books themselves as now a plethora of optional or rules variants found online.
Put this together with DMs that are really into narrative and players that are into narrative and I've ended up with games where we haven't killed of kludged anything for several sessions in a row. And all firmly in within the main rules and mechanics of the core game.
I've fallen in love with the game again. I feel that it's basic design is finally catching on with the need for flexibility in the different ways people play it. Now you can pretty much just decide we like it this way and just do it. It's pretty awesome.
posted by Jalliah at 4:58 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've been out of the loop on gaming a few years now - I took up writing full time in 2013, and just don't have the creative juice to maintain the hobby anymore. I ran games for... 25 years or so though, and the longer I did it, the more convinced I became that players should participate more deeply in the narrative. You can do that with D&D, (and I certainly have), but I think it's easier to make games do things they were specifically designed for instead of kludging everything.
I got back into D&D last year after many years and several editions. One of the main reasons is because 5e is so much more flexible in how you play. My murderhobo days are long gone and older me is much more into narrative and storytelling. I've found 5e great for supporting this type of gameplay not only for myself as DM but in several of the games I've been playing for over a year. Doesn't even need a whole lot of variation or skipping core rules to get there.
XP is a good example. In older versions killing things was the primary way to get xp and level so much so that new players coming in think that's how you do it. However the lastest version has embraced the idea of context and encounter xp as an option. You get xp for completing some sort of goal no matter how you do it. Some don't even give out actual numbers to us players. They just let us know when we level. I've been playing 3 games online for almost a year and none of them give out xp every session. I love it as it takes emphasis off of killing everything to get the numbers to level. In these games you get the same if you avoid killing and find other ways to deal with the problem at hand.
Creating variations on rules and general mechanics in context of your specific games is encouraged. There are optional rules in the core books themselves as now a plethora of optional or rules variants found online.
Put this together with DMs that are really into narrative and players that are into narrative and I've ended up with games where we haven't killed of kludged anything for several sessions in a row. And all firmly in within the main rules and mechanics of the core game.
I've fallen in love with the game again. I feel that it's basic design is finally catching on with the need for flexibility in the different ways people play it. Now you can pretty much just decide we like it this way and just do it. It's pretty awesome.
posted by Jalliah at 4:58 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
> In older versions killing things was the primary way to get xp and level so much so that new players coming in think that's how you do it.
Before AD&D, killing things didn't give much XP at all. The primary way of getting XP was by looting gold from dungeons, preferably from dragons, and then hauling it back to town. Weight and movement rules were important because they directly impacted your ability to carry that sweet sweet XP back to town.
Some of the best solutions to problems centered on getting the gold while avoiding the nasty fight that was much less reward and much higher risk.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 5:01 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
Before AD&D, killing things didn't give much XP at all. The primary way of getting XP was by looting gold from dungeons, preferably from dragons, and then hauling it back to town. Weight and movement rules were important because they directly impacted your ability to carry that sweet sweet XP back to town.
Some of the best solutions to problems centered on getting the gold while avoiding the nasty fight that was much less reward and much higher risk.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 5:01 PM on November 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
If for some reason the demand that I ran a campaign for my nephews (9 and 12 I think) reemerged, I would probably go Beyond the Wall and add a good reaction and morale system I pulled from something else. Maybe a more robust skill system. Or I'd just use 5e and add a reaction, morale, and encumberance system to that.
(* I would do this regardless of the age group of the players in question. Age would just affect scenario content and focus, but in my late years GMing, I really came to appreciate environments where the players drove the story more.)
I'd argue that sandbox play in older editions of D&D with reaction tables and the like can be as or more player driven than FATE. Which isn't to say I don't like FATE, I do. But as far as systems good for presenting a world and letting players do their thing go, old-school D&D works really well. The DM just has to resist the impulse to add a story. Create NPCs, create environments, let players interact as they will. Use the reaction and morale systems along with, you know, roleplaying, determine how NPCs respond to the characters, and the character's job is to survive and get ahead. If they want to do that by going and raiding a dungeon, cool. If they want to try and pull a coup on a thieves' guild, cool. If they want to start a merchant caravan, okay, I guess I'll figure out how to systematize that.
On preview I super endorse this last comment from I-Write-Essays. I really like that problem solving version of old D&D. I'm trying to write a game based on 5e that takes place on a D&Dized Earth where living dungeons grow up out of the depths of the earth sent by the Powers Below, and unleash monsters that prey on mankind and the spirits of the surface. The living dungeons also generate treasure, and a significant part of the economy is powered by delves into the dungeons, because gold is a universal alchemical source, and can be transformed into much larger quantities of most of the other chemical elements. I want, to a reasonable extent, the logistics of carrying big piles of treasure out of dungeons to be part of the gameplay.
It's not going... great, but in my defense, I'm also writing a story set in the same world, which is going okay, and I've been pretty distracted by the real world this year.
posted by Caduceus at 5:13 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
(* I would do this regardless of the age group of the players in question. Age would just affect scenario content and focus, but in my late years GMing, I really came to appreciate environments where the players drove the story more.)
I'd argue that sandbox play in older editions of D&D with reaction tables and the like can be as or more player driven than FATE. Which isn't to say I don't like FATE, I do. But as far as systems good for presenting a world and letting players do their thing go, old-school D&D works really well. The DM just has to resist the impulse to add a story. Create NPCs, create environments, let players interact as they will. Use the reaction and morale systems along with, you know, roleplaying, determine how NPCs respond to the characters, and the character's job is to survive and get ahead. If they want to do that by going and raiding a dungeon, cool. If they want to try and pull a coup on a thieves' guild, cool. If they want to start a merchant caravan, okay, I guess I'll figure out how to systematize that.
On preview I super endorse this last comment from I-Write-Essays. I really like that problem solving version of old D&D. I'm trying to write a game based on 5e that takes place on a D&Dized Earth where living dungeons grow up out of the depths of the earth sent by the Powers Below, and unleash monsters that prey on mankind and the spirits of the surface. The living dungeons also generate treasure, and a significant part of the economy is powered by delves into the dungeons, because gold is a universal alchemical source, and can be transformed into much larger quantities of most of the other chemical elements. I want, to a reasonable extent, the logistics of carrying big piles of treasure out of dungeons to be part of the gameplay.
It's not going... great, but in my defense, I'm also writing a story set in the same world, which is going okay, and I've been pretty distracted by the real world this year.
posted by Caduceus at 5:13 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Before AD&D, killing things didn't give much XP at all. The primary way of getting XP was by looting gold from dungeons, preferably from dragons, and then hauling it back to town. Weight and movement rules were important because they directly impacted your ability to carry that sweet sweet XP back to town.
Some of the best solutions to problems centered on getting the gold while avoiding the nasty fight that was much less reward and much higher risk
Cool. I started with AS&D so not familiar with that. From a design perspective though that method pushes playstyle to be all about getting gold. Which is awesome if that's how people like to play but not so awesome if you've got characters or a storyline that for reasons of narrative aren't primarily motivated by finding shiny things. For example in one of my current games my character is a noble who really doesn't care about loot. She's fine with other folks caring but she herself doesn't have any need for money. It would difficult to play this type of character where the main way to level was getting gold.
I'm loving the different ways that people can now get xp and level. It's entirely up to the DM and the specific group. Even the the core modules give guidelines for optional ways of doing it.
posted by Jalliah at 5:14 PM on November 17, 2017
Some of the best solutions to problems centered on getting the gold while avoiding the nasty fight that was much less reward and much higher risk
Cool. I started with AS&D so not familiar with that. From a design perspective though that method pushes playstyle to be all about getting gold. Which is awesome if that's how people like to play but not so awesome if you've got characters or a storyline that for reasons of narrative aren't primarily motivated by finding shiny things. For example in one of my current games my character is a noble who really doesn't care about loot. She's fine with other folks caring but she herself doesn't have any need for money. It would difficult to play this type of character where the main way to level was getting gold.
I'm loving the different ways that people can now get xp and level. It's entirely up to the DM and the specific group. Even the the core modules give guidelines for optional ways of doing it.
posted by Jalliah at 5:14 PM on November 17, 2017
No mention of Mouse Guard? It's based on a comic series (read a couple issues, seems very Redwall inspired) and seems really cute. Mouse minis!
posted by fiercekitten at 5:21 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by fiercekitten at 5:21 PM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, basic D&D was a game with a very specific premise: You are a band of unsavory 'adventurers' who are out to make your fortunes. There are many scenarios you can fit into this, but it is still only a short step away from the wargames from which it was inspired.
It wasn't until after it became huge that it started getting used for other things and drifting from its original idea, and you have to wonder why you would play a game about political intrigue in a rule system that advertises it is about dungeons and dragons.
On preview: Mouse Guard is also by the authors of Burning Wheel, and based on a superdeformed version of that ruleset. Torchbearer is their version of first edition D&D.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 5:25 PM on November 17, 2017
It wasn't until after it became huge that it started getting used for other things and drifting from its original idea, and you have to wonder why you would play a game about political intrigue in a rule system that advertises it is about dungeons and dragons.
On preview: Mouse Guard is also by the authors of Burning Wheel, and based on a superdeformed version of that ruleset. Torchbearer is their version of first edition D&D.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 5:25 PM on November 17, 2017
Basic D&D is a program for generating The Hobbit.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 5:32 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 5:32 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'd strip Fate down even more, and have the kids play something with Fate Accelerated. If I were going to play something else besides Call of C'thulhu, this would be it.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 7:37 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 7:37 PM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
5th edition is plenty easy enough for children.
posted by Docrailgun at 10:20 PM on November 17, 2017
posted by Docrailgun at 10:20 PM on November 17, 2017
5th ed is great for groups down to age eleven or so, as long as you either pre-gen character sheets and let everyone pick their class and learn as they go or you set aside one entire day for explaining how to pick skills, but that's going to take a while with any group. Below that age and I'd do a one page RPG like The Witch Is Dead (maybe edit for language) or Honey Heist (Grant Howitt), the Tearable RPG, or World of Dungeons(pdf link) (a fake 1970s version of Dungeon World). Maybe Lasers & Feelings.
I've been reading Blades in the Dark and I love the "decide what you've been carrying all along only after you need it" mechanic, and I hope to see kids games or generally simplified games use that kind of thing for all of the stats later on. Basically, you decide at the beginning how much stuff you carry- light load of 3 things, heavy load of six things, etc- and then over the course of the game you say "A lock? Well it's lucky that the fourth thing I was carrying was a lockpick set!" See also No Mistakes, Only Deeper Plans.
posted by fomhar at 12:34 AM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've been reading Blades in the Dark and I love the "decide what you've been carrying all along only after you need it" mechanic, and I hope to see kids games or generally simplified games use that kind of thing for all of the stats later on. Basically, you decide at the beginning how much stuff you carry- light load of 3 things, heavy load of six things, etc- and then over the course of the game you say "A lock? Well it's lucky that the fourth thing I was carrying was a lockpick set!" See also No Mistakes, Only Deeper Plans.
posted by fomhar at 12:34 AM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
When I started playing D&D it was in the crossover from Original D&D plus Supplements (Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Eldritch Wizardry) to AD&D. The release of the DM Guide was a huge thing for us, it made AD&D a complete system that stood by itself instead of a patchwork of rules that had significant gaps & didn't always agree with each other. We each tried our hand at DM'ing & almost always played in one guy's basement but he lived in the development on the other side of the elementary school from the rest of us. So we walked or rode bikes from our houses to his.
To kill the time I started an absolute minimalist RPG with one of the other players - nothing written, no formal system at all, just the two of us talking back & forth. We both had characters & I also DMed. If we ever needed to introduce a degree of randomness I had an LCD digital watch with a stopwatch function that went to hundredths of a second that served as a D100. It was an SF setting, something about finding a time-traveling shuttlecraft & using our knowledge of its advanced technology to secretly take over the world.
I've always loved complexity in gaming but there was something about the purity of a game with no rules, no permanence, just two friends spinning a narrative together as we walked that let our imaginations run free in a way that no other game has.
posted by scalefree at 2:20 AM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
To kill the time I started an absolute minimalist RPG with one of the other players - nothing written, no formal system at all, just the two of us talking back & forth. We both had characters & I also DMed. If we ever needed to introduce a degree of randomness I had an LCD digital watch with a stopwatch function that went to hundredths of a second that served as a D100. It was an SF setting, something about finding a time-traveling shuttlecraft & using our knowledge of its advanced technology to secretly take over the world.
I've always loved complexity in gaming but there was something about the purity of a game with no rules, no permanence, just two friends spinning a narrative together as we walked that let our imaginations run free in a way that no other game has.
posted by scalefree at 2:20 AM on November 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
My boyfriend isn’t into tabletop RPGs, but he thinks Mouse Guard looks really cute. I’m DMing our first game next week and I’m so excited!
Adam Kobel ran a Mouse Guard one-shot session that’s a pretty good intro to the gameplay.
posted by Banknote of the year at 8:15 AM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
Adam Kobel ran a Mouse Guard one-shot session that’s a pretty good intro to the gameplay.
posted by Banknote of the year at 8:15 AM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
...and I misspelled Adam Koebel’s name. Oops!
posted by Banknote of the year at 8:42 AM on November 18, 2017
posted by Banknote of the year at 8:42 AM on November 18, 2017
In any case, the correct way to spell it is "A damn kobold"
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:28 AM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:28 AM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
"OMG, have you heard what the Beholder on level 4 saw last night!?"
"Like nineteen different things, plus he got a REALLY GOOD look at one specific thing, but couldn't judge how far away it was."
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:35 PM on November 19, 2017
"Like nineteen different things, plus he got a REALLY GOOD look at one specific thing, but couldn't judge how far away it was."
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:35 PM on November 19, 2017
It’s a Living: Meet One of New York’s Best Professional D&D Dungeon Masters (Brian Raftery for Wired, Nov. 19, 2017) -- a timely, topical article on Timm Woods, who is a GM for Hire, guiding (and entertaining) kids and adults, and he shares some interesting lessons:
posted by filthy light thief at 12:13 PM on November 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
he realized the differences between kid players and their adult counterparts. “The kids will be very honest with each other,” he says. “They’ll say something like, ‘Well, if you do that, I’m just gonna kill your character. And I know it’s gonna ruin the game, but I’ll ruin the game. Watch me.’ With the adult groups, everybody knows that they’re there to have fun.”He/the article also plugs Dungeon World as "the kid-friendlier, D&D-influenced game."
posted by filthy light thief at 12:13 PM on November 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Was just about to drop that link myself flt. Fun article, y'all should check it out!
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:03 PM on November 20, 2017
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:03 PM on November 20, 2017
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posted by triage_lazarus at 10:17 AM on November 17, 2017