"This is the water we swim in"
January 25, 2018 12:50 PM Subscribe
"At every turn, women are taught that how someone reacts to them does more to establish their goodness and worth than anything they themselves might feel."
I am saving this article and I am printing it out and carrying it around to give to anyone who starts with me on this topic. This says everything I can never express in a concise way.
posted by narancia at 1:39 PM on January 25, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by narancia at 1:39 PM on January 25, 2018 [12 favorites]
RationalWiki, of all the places, also has a decent section on evopsych and why it's a bunch of bullshit. used to be my goto reference drop back when I was getting into heated debates with basically the entire reddit population of users
posted by runt at 1:48 PM on January 25, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by runt at 1:48 PM on January 25, 2018 [10 favorites]
Some disorganized thoughts:
Sometimes I wonder how much terrible socialization I escaped by being a smart and ugly child -- I distinctly remember my fifth grade teacher, the most traditionally feminine of any of my elementary school teachers, saying, "You're going to do great things. ....[pause] ... and you're super cute." i.e. it was very clear that people could not, in good conscience, praise my looks before my other qualities, which, I guess, is how boys live?
I am currently reading Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye.
A lighter example, but I've had a lot of anxiety re: travel and trip planning when it is not solo (i.e. with my boyfriend). Only yesterday did I have the insight that I shouldn't focus on planning a trip that he deems "competently planned", but one that will be a good time for me / us. It's just like how large corporations teach you not to write "We will dominate our competition" and instead, "We will bring convenience and delight to our customers"
From this article and the recent post re: Diaresis Recti, it seems like western medicine considers a lot of "lady problems" as untreatable / just facts of life, like the pain of childbirth, whereas my limited understanding of Traditional Chinese Medicine suggests that there is no end of herbal concoctions or stabbable points you can be prescribed for whatever you're feeling, whatever your gender. I assume there is a precision / recall trade-off here...
posted by batter_my_heart at 1:50 PM on January 25, 2018 [13 favorites]
Sometimes I wonder how much terrible socialization I escaped by being a smart and ugly child -- I distinctly remember my fifth grade teacher, the most traditionally feminine of any of my elementary school teachers, saying, "You're going to do great things. ....[pause] ... and you're super cute." i.e. it was very clear that people could not, in good conscience, praise my looks before my other qualities, which, I guess, is how boys live?
I am currently reading Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye.
A lighter example, but I've had a lot of anxiety re: travel and trip planning when it is not solo (i.e. with my boyfriend). Only yesterday did I have the insight that I shouldn't focus on planning a trip that he deems "competently planned", but one that will be a good time for me / us. It's just like how large corporations teach you not to write "We will dominate our competition" and instead, "We will bring convenience and delight to our customers"
From this article and the recent post re: Diaresis Recti, it seems like western medicine considers a lot of "lady problems" as untreatable / just facts of life, like the pain of childbirth, whereas my limited understanding of Traditional Chinese Medicine suggests that there is no end of herbal concoctions or stabbable points you can be prescribed for whatever you're feeling, whatever your gender. I assume there is a precision / recall trade-off here...
posted by batter_my_heart at 1:50 PM on January 25, 2018 [13 favorites]
also it's kind of not great to quote DFW's take on the golden rule as the starting point for your essay on misogyny.
posted by runt at 1:52 PM on January 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by runt at 1:52 PM on January 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
This is phenomenal.
posted by SinAesthetic at 1:52 PM on January 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by SinAesthetic at 1:52 PM on January 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
That is truly excellent. I've read it once, I'm going to need a day or two to process it and read it again. It's one of those articles that perfectly summarizes something I've been struggling to clarify in my own head.
posted by sotonohito at 1:54 PM on January 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 1:54 PM on January 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
*slightly bitter laughter* Oh man, oh man, oh man, there's a conflict coming up in my work where--look, there's three students all far along in our programs in my lab, and one of them I trust and one of them I don't because he likes to have thought experiments about things that play right into this and that hurts. If I push back on him, I get equal blame for the conflict as he does--I found out this afternoon my boss apparently felt the need to warn a new hire that he has "two students with strong opinions who often conflict," which, there goes my confidence all to hell. My boss' latest bright great idea is that we three students who are struggling right now should form a support group to encourage us all to move along, so I guess I'm to make myself vulnerable here to pave over the impression that everything is fine?
I have been trying to figure out all day whether the issue is that I'm too harsh or too political when I push back on this colleague when he strays into issues that hurt me and make me feel unsafe, which are all theoretical fair game to him. How I tell my boss that his assessment of me as overconfident is wrong, again, and whether I should work up the nerve to ask someone senior for advice, and whether I'm fucking up in any of the tiny ways that shatter my illusion of being confident and comfortable in my work when I'm struggling.
Or maybe I should say nothing and roll with it, make a good faith effort until the next barb, or sit in tension and wait for the next offering to come and--along with it--a blunt disagreement that upsets onlookers for which I will also be blamed. Because what, I said something? Or I can make myself vulnerable so that this man who I don't trust will ignore me, or try to bend over backwards to support someone who can't be bothered to stop hurting me in the process of taking his own intellectual adventure.
I am in emotional pain over this proposed solution, is what I'm saying; and I'm trying to anticipate and understand the feelings of a senior man confronted with the point that he has been badly mismanaging me as a student. And I'm still trying to find out how to say "No. No, I do not want to do this. This is a stupid idea. No." Fuck.
posted by sciatrix at 2:00 PM on January 25, 2018 [51 favorites]
I have been trying to figure out all day whether the issue is that I'm too harsh or too political when I push back on this colleague when he strays into issues that hurt me and make me feel unsafe, which are all theoretical fair game to him. How I tell my boss that his assessment of me as overconfident is wrong, again, and whether I should work up the nerve to ask someone senior for advice, and whether I'm fucking up in any of the tiny ways that shatter my illusion of being confident and comfortable in my work when I'm struggling.
Or maybe I should say nothing and roll with it, make a good faith effort until the next barb, or sit in tension and wait for the next offering to come and--along with it--a blunt disagreement that upsets onlookers for which I will also be blamed. Because what, I said something? Or I can make myself vulnerable so that this man who I don't trust will ignore me, or try to bend over backwards to support someone who can't be bothered to stop hurting me in the process of taking his own intellectual adventure.
I am in emotional pain over this proposed solution, is what I'm saying; and I'm trying to anticipate and understand the feelings of a senior man confronted with the point that he has been badly mismanaging me as a student. And I'm still trying to find out how to say "No. No, I do not want to do this. This is a stupid idea. No." Fuck.
posted by sciatrix at 2:00 PM on January 25, 2018 [51 favorites]
I don't want to shift focus by posting this (or get totally Ansari-specific since this is obviously a cultural issue), but Andrea Grimes posted this piece on Medium (Stop Waiting for the Real Aziz Ansari) last week or so.
From a different angle, it gets at the idea that there were obvious reasons for Grace to end the encounter far before she did. Sure, there were reasons. She also came into the situation with a lot of information leading her to assume that there would not be good reasons to leave abruptly, due to a bad experience.
I think the two tie together - how much of our own reactions to situations are we trained to ignore? And then, when the time is right, flip on a dime and trust your instincts to lead you out! It's an impossible ask, and it's designed to be impossible.
Thanks for posting this piece.
posted by Emmy Rae at 2:00 PM on January 25, 2018 [20 favorites]
From a different angle, it gets at the idea that there were obvious reasons for Grace to end the encounter far before she did. Sure, there were reasons. She also came into the situation with a lot of information leading her to assume that there would not be good reasons to leave abruptly, due to a bad experience.
I think the two tie together - how much of our own reactions to situations are we trained to ignore? And then, when the time is right, flip on a dime and trust your instincts to lead you out! It's an impossible ask, and it's designed to be impossible.
Thanks for posting this piece.
posted by Emmy Rae at 2:00 PM on January 25, 2018 [20 favorites]
Point noted re the quote, but I think we could do without the nitpicking this early in the thread? Let the post breathe a minute.
posted by sciatrix at 2:01 PM on January 25, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 2:01 PM on January 25, 2018 [12 favorites]
So here's a story from a recent OKC date.
We were in bed for the first time and when I told him what he was doing hurt and offered to show him what would feel good to me (something just a tiny bit different than what he was doing) his response was "No thanks. I'll figure it out on my own."
He turned me down when I offered to show him how not to cause me pain and to give me pleasure.
He was baffled, downright fucking baffled, when I stopped him a few minutes later. Didn't I want to come? Why was I stopping him before I came?
It was clear that I wasn't filling his mental image of "naked lady that I will do the sex to."
And, honestly, this wasn't some monster. He was a normal everyday dude. He just was fully of the belief that my individual experience didn't much matter. I was there to be The Woman In Bed.
posted by mcduff at 2:04 PM on January 25, 2018 [125 favorites]
We were in bed for the first time and when I told him what he was doing hurt and offered to show him what would feel good to me (something just a tiny bit different than what he was doing) his response was "No thanks. I'll figure it out on my own."
He turned me down when I offered to show him how not to cause me pain and to give me pleasure.
He was baffled, downright fucking baffled, when I stopped him a few minutes later. Didn't I want to come? Why was I stopping him before I came?
It was clear that I wasn't filling his mental image of "naked lady that I will do the sex to."
And, honestly, this wasn't some monster. He was a normal everyday dude. He just was fully of the belief that my individual experience didn't much matter. I was there to be The Woman In Bed.
posted by mcduff at 2:04 PM on January 25, 2018 [125 favorites]
And, honestly, this wasn't some monster. He was a normal everyday dude.
I think the lesson of the past year / decade / my entire lifetime is that these are not mutually exclusive, and in fact are often comorbid
Whole lotta every day dudes have their monster side, is what I’m saying
posted by schadenfrau at 2:16 PM on January 25, 2018 [72 favorites]
I think the lesson of the past year / decade / my entire lifetime is that these are not mutually exclusive, and in fact are often comorbid
Whole lotta every day dudes have their monster side, is what I’m saying
posted by schadenfrau at 2:16 PM on January 25, 2018 [72 favorites]
Reading this brought to mind the boyfriend I had in my early twenties, the boyfriend I dated for four years, who insisted that the reason I had pain during sex was that I didn't really love him. He said that if I loved him more, i wouldn't feel ridiculous amounts of pain, and he bullied me against going to the doctor with my problem. When I finally did (after we had broken up), I found out that I had vaginismus. And I don't think my story is that uncommon! It took me literally years to recover (from both vaginismus and dating that jerk).
posted by zoetrope at 2:19 PM on January 25, 2018 [27 favorites]
posted by zoetrope at 2:19 PM on January 25, 2018 [27 favorites]
...and this is where my slight asperger-y-ness fails me completely. Often, I think "hey wait a minute, that's not what I want! Why aren't they doing what I want?" Double-edged sword, I guess.
posted by Melismata at 2:20 PM on January 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 2:20 PM on January 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
I’ve never had a sexual experience. And I’m terrified to. I’m not dating anyone now, and I suppose as a Bi person I could go for either, but if I ever start to date- I think it’ll just be women. Because the idea of sex with men terrifies me. Even when I am attracted to one. I don’t want to be a virgin. But sometimes I think it’s better then the alternative. At least I’m not in pain.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 2:48 PM on January 25, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 2:48 PM on January 25, 2018 [9 favorites]
I’m so sorry, mcduff. What a shitty, dehumanizing thing to have done to you. “No thanks, I’ll figure it out” sounds like it should be a parody of arrogant, clueless masculinity and unexamined privilege. It’s something Zapp Brannigan would say just before he pilots his spaceship directly into a black hole while alarms blare and his assistants scream at him to stop. This sort of thing is the end result of men being socialized to believe that their needs, opinions and beliefs automatically hold more value than those of women. Imagine how deep it has to go for a man to be able to dismiss a woman - who is *right there*, telling it to his face - when she says that what he is doing is causing her pain, but could with only minor adjustments be pleasurable. Imagine how deep it has to go for a man to consciously choose causing a sexual partner pain while he “figures it out” over accepting her guidance. It’s a very short, straight line from that kind of casual cruelty to all kinds of terrible things men do to women.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:10 PM on January 25, 2018 [56 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:10 PM on January 25, 2018 [56 favorites]
I don't want to shift focus by posting this (or get totally Ansari-specific since this is obviously a cultural issue), but Andrea Grimes posted this piece on Medium (Stop Waiting for the Real Aziz Ansari) last week or so.
This is so, so good:
This is so, so good:
If you are asking why Grace didn’t just leave, just run out the door, just bail off the balcony at the first hint of things gone awry, ask yourself: Why don’t you just leave? Why didn’t you read Grace’s account of Ansari’s behavior and abandon him as a fan?posted by corb at 3:11 PM on January 25, 2018 [39 favorites]
This article resonates with me so much that I simultaneously really want to share it on facebook and don't think I can because it feels too personal.
Maybe it will inspire me to be more persistent and ask yet another doctor to investigate why I very frequently have discomfort and pain during sex. Maybe this time they'll run a single test or examine me physically or even ask for more details instead of just saying "yeah that's common, do more foreplay, use more lube" no matter what I say, like maybe there's some magical amount of lube or foreplay time I haven't reached yet that finally gets rid of the pain - liters? Gallons? Hours? Days? Maybe.
posted by randomnity at 3:24 PM on January 25, 2018 [11 favorites]
Maybe it will inspire me to be more persistent and ask yet another doctor to investigate why I very frequently have discomfort and pain during sex. Maybe this time they'll run a single test or examine me physically or even ask for more details instead of just saying "yeah that's common, do more foreplay, use more lube" no matter what I say, like maybe there's some magical amount of lube or foreplay time I haven't reached yet that finally gets rid of the pain - liters? Gallons? Hours? Days? Maybe.
posted by randomnity at 3:24 PM on January 25, 2018 [11 favorites]
And of course this all applies to so much more than sex. I'm working on a tendency I have to be a "people pleaser" and one thing I have noticed is that I'm about 50% more assertive with women than men (about relatively trivial things like not eating food or seeing movies I don't want to).
We are trained from birth to prioritize men's comfort over our own, in such insidious ways that I find it difficult to articulate the reasons why. Sure sometimes it's fear of physical violence, or knowing that a man is just more likely to make things really atmospherically unpleasant if he doesn't get his way, or simply knowing, bone deep, that Men Are Important in a way that women aren't. But somehow those fears are so ingrained in me that I make decisions, I act, without even consciously registering why.
posted by mrmurbles at 3:45 PM on January 25, 2018 [34 favorites]
We are trained from birth to prioritize men's comfort over our own, in such insidious ways that I find it difficult to articulate the reasons why. Sure sometimes it's fear of physical violence, or knowing that a man is just more likely to make things really atmospherically unpleasant if he doesn't get his way, or simply knowing, bone deep, that Men Are Important in a way that women aren't. But somehow those fears are so ingrained in me that I make decisions, I act, without even consciously registering why.
posted by mrmurbles at 3:45 PM on January 25, 2018 [34 favorites]
Men make things atmospherically unpleasant at just the idea that there are women who live their lives in such a way as to not spend the majority of it prioritizing men. Look at Courtland Sykes—he literally made it his political platform.
posted by Autumnheart at 3:50 PM on January 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 3:50 PM on January 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
this article is just crazy good. there are things I could criticize if I had to, but you know what, I don't have to. I don't even want to. it's that good.
and LL's not some ill-read dingdong, I cannot find it in me to imagine the choice of DFW to quote is an accident or a mistake.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:02 PM on January 25, 2018 [10 favorites]
and LL's not some ill-read dingdong, I cannot find it in me to imagine the choice of DFW to quote is an accident or a mistake.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:02 PM on January 25, 2018 [10 favorites]
Back in my misspent youth, I hooked up with a young man who was well known in our circles as good with the ladies. And he was solidly good. I had fun, things were going well and the few times he and I had sex were mutually satisfying. Then one night, we’d be at it a while and although I was young and energetic, I had climaxed a while back and now it was starting to get painful. So, nicely and as politely as one can, I asked him if he was about done. He confidently replied that he knew I had one more in me and he was gonna make it happen.
As the pain was starting to get worse, I was less polite in my second request, bluntly stating that he had until the count of 3 to have his moment or I was done.
He laughed and continued about his business.
Reader, I punched him in the kidney and disengaged myself as he was surprised. For months after, he told his friends and mine about the incident with a tinge of pride. Like he was so awesome I had to punch him to stop. Every guy he told the story to responded with similar horror and respect. All the girls? Gave me a sly smile.
posted by teleri025 at 4:47 PM on January 25, 2018 [44 favorites]
As the pain was starting to get worse, I was less polite in my second request, bluntly stating that he had until the count of 3 to have his moment or I was done.
He laughed and continued about his business.
Reader, I punched him in the kidney and disengaged myself as he was surprised. For months after, he told his friends and mine about the incident with a tinge of pride. Like he was so awesome I had to punch him to stop. Every guy he told the story to responded with similar horror and respect. All the girls? Gave me a sly smile.
posted by teleri025 at 4:47 PM on January 25, 2018 [44 favorites]
Teleri025-- Oh, God, the hours we collectively have politely/lovingly accepted bored, ceiling tile counting, increasingly frictiony, can I just go to sleep yet, tedious discomfort of Drunk Dick. You're not a macho sex machine with amazing stamina, you're just... ugh. And that's among the neutral, not-so-bad outcomes.
I very much appreciated the article's take on different meanings for "bad sex".
posted by Capybara at 5:17 PM on January 25, 2018 [28 favorites]
I very much appreciated the article's take on different meanings for "bad sex".
posted by Capybara at 5:17 PM on January 25, 2018 [28 favorites]
This article resonates with me so much that I simultaneously really want to share it on facebook and don't think I can because it feels too personal.
I did make the choice to share it on facebook. Both because it resonated with me deeply and because I wanted to use it as a way to recenter some of the conversations that I had last week about bad sex and consent.
I already wish I hadn't posted it.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 5:18 PM on January 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
I did make the choice to share it on facebook. Both because it resonated with me deeply and because I wanted to use it as a way to recenter some of the conversations that I had last week about bad sex and consent.
I already wish I hadn't posted it.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 5:18 PM on January 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
From the Medium:
"Are we supposed to just throw out those good television shows, those magnificent films, those genius comedic bits, just because of one bad night, these devils’ advocates want to know? Are we the public supposed to go against all the information we have about this guy — that he is kind, or empathetic, or funny, or talented, and just nope the fuck out on him?"
Unfortunately, the answer to this is gonna be "Yes, you do, because it's never something that happened just one time and he realized the error of his ways and stopped."
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:36 PM on January 25, 2018 [17 favorites]
"Are we supposed to just throw out those good television shows, those magnificent films, those genius comedic bits, just because of one bad night, these devils’ advocates want to know? Are we the public supposed to go against all the information we have about this guy — that he is kind, or empathetic, or funny, or talented, and just nope the fuck out on him?"
Unfortunately, the answer to this is gonna be "Yes, you do, because it's never something that happened just one time and he realized the error of his ways and stopped."
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:36 PM on January 25, 2018 [17 favorites]
Or, since sex is the subject here, what about how our society's scientific community has treated female dyspareunia — the severe physical pain some women experience during sex — vs. erectile dysfunction (which, while lamentable, is not painful)? PubMed has 393 clinical trials studying dyspareunia. Vaginismus? 10. Vulvodynia? 43.Yup. If we can't even get our doctors to take our pain seriously, how are we going to convince our partners to? Or maybe it's the other way around. But either way, it falls on women to convince people (usually men, but very often women) that our pain and discomfort are real and warranted.
Erectile dysfunction? 1,954.
That's right: PubMed has almost five times as many clinical trials on male sexual pleasure as it has on female sexual pain. And why? Because we live in a culture that sees female pain as normal and male pleasure as a right.
I'm so sick of being told that it's ok for me to be uncomfortable, but nobody else ever has been in this situation/with this person, so I need to change my expectations/deal with it/get a thicker skin/take more advil/whatever.
Because not only must we endure this crap, we have to convincingly act as though it doesn't bother us. If we mention too early in a new that we're being harassed, someone will say that we're just new here and we don't understand that Harvey is harmless, wouldn't hurt a fly. If we wait 6 months and then complain, we're told that we always seemed fine with it before and it seems so strange that we're mentioning this after we've gotten a poor review. The high heels? Don't totter or stumble. The makeup? Pray it doesn't give you acne. The shapers and bras? Pray they don't give you VPL. The endometriosis? Pray it doesn't leave you doubled under your desk, hurling into your trash can. Someone will ask if you're pregnant. If you're uncomfortable, or express a need, or seem upset, many men will think nothing of asking "is it that time of the month?"
So men. This is the place where I, like the broken record that I am, ask you to please tell all the men you know, that you read this article, you think it's important, and ask them what the fuck they're going to do about it. Find out for yourself which of your friends are ok with women continuing to endure this kind of pain. Decide whether they're still people you want to be friends with.
No more of this "she comes first" shit where women are begging to have our overfucked, chafed vulvas left alone. No more wrestling us into positions where you can "get deeper." No more trying to hold our ankles behind our necks. (What is it with that? Actually, don't tell me.) No more pretending you didn't hear us. No more telling us that sex can help a headache. No more hogging seats on the subway. Get up. You cannot tell who is pregnant, and I promise you the odds are good that every woman on the train has sore feet, and the odds are even better that when she gets home she's got a lot of cooking and or cleaning to do. Fine, if you have a herniated disk, keep sitting. But I don't believe that every single man in this train car is injured.
(And then let's talk about "man flu" and how we all know, socially, that women work through nearly everything and that we also know men's pain is taken seriously and expressions of pain from men have different outcomes. These jokes don't come from nowhere.)
posted by bilabial at 6:31 PM on January 25, 2018 [60 favorites]
I feel like this might be getting weirdly TMI, but I have been in physical therapy for vaginisimus. It took years of struggling with tampons and gynecologist visits before I got a gynecologist who diagnosed it for me. The PT was covered by my insurance and it was JUST AS AWKWARD as you'd imagine something like that would be. However, I'm now able to use tampons like a normal human. The physical therapist specifically recommended this book. I mention this here because if your doctor is in the "more lube will make everything better" camp -- there are actual solutions out there.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 6:48 PM on January 25, 2018 [28 favorites]
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 6:48 PM on January 25, 2018 [28 favorites]
I feel like this might be getting weirdly TMI
Well, no worries. I feel like everything I just wrote is TMI. And yet that's just one of the things that keeps us from talking frankly about these kinds of issues, right? I'm starting to care less about what other people might consider to be TMI. We're human, and only through recognizing that will we be able to transcend our baser natures.
Women are enculturated to be uncomfortable most of the time. And to ignore their discomfort.
I literally told a friend this earlier: I think there is some part of me that's almost more comfortable when everything is uncomfortable and sucks, like maybe it's that that just simplifies things? I don't really have to worry about the hard questions about personal fulfillment or integrity or life goals or fulfilling my potential when situations are terrible and out of my control, heh. And I wasn't saying that was good, but it was interesting to me to observe that about myself, as I found myself back in triage mode this afternoon and realized I was almost...comfortable, even as I was hating it. It's like how this year I deliberately chose to say yes to the work of co-hosting an event on my birthday, because at least then I was making the choice to be somewhat uncomfortable on my birthday, rather than waiting around for someone to surprise me with fulfillment and ending up uncomfortable anyway. This is kind of mind-bending stuff to consider.
But you know, heh, when I was sitting there on a bench by the pharmacy late this afternoon, so upset and frustrated at the insurance and pharmacy purgatory I found myself in that I couldn't help crying, this tiny little boy asked his mother in Spanish why I was sad, and she stopped and sat down to talk to me and asked me what was wrong, performing that emotional labor at her son's behest and also because she was worried too, I think, and I had so many thoughts. Like this adorable little boy is so sweet to worry about me and not want to leave until his mom talks to me and makes sure I'm OK. And she was the second person to ask if I was OK or needed help—I wasn't sure if they were just reading my expression of distress or what. Maybe people thought the big sad lady in gray sweats I threw on to get out the door was in financial trouble—or maybe I fit their mental model of someone in a worse situation?
I started crying because I had just found out that due to new practices instituted by my insurance company, probably because of posturing regarding the opioid crisis and all that—on top of my husband not listening to me when I said maybe he should stay in the hospital a day or so and get tests and not use up all his pain medication trying to ride things out at home with me as his nurse, of course—I might have to deal with the same situation again in a week, and I couldn't take it. I think part of the reason I started crying as well was that due to this whole medical situation, among other things, it's in question whether I'll ever get to raise a little guy like that. And I was thinking about how this lovely woman and her son, who speak Spanish, are the kind of people who terrible people in this country don't want to be here. (I ended up driving to the pharmacy behind some dude in a pickup truck with a "Rebel Boy" Confederate flag bumper sticker, so I'm sure that didn't help.) And also, perhaps more germane to this thread, it reminded me that little boys aren't born not caring about women. One of my nephews said something earlier this week that also showed this amazing empathy for women. But toxic masculinity is this creeping, horrible thing that too often destroys that empathy that little boys have from their earliest days and leads women to deny ourselves even the recognition of our own pain.
a known psychological phenomenon called "relative deprivation," by which disenfranchised groups, having been trained to expect little, tend paradoxically to report the same levels of satisfaction as their better-treated, more privileged peers
I know this one well. This seems related to what I was just trying to describe to my therapist earlier in the week, how I sometimes preemptively compromise or give up on things I care about because I’m so used to just not getting the things I want, I can’t even get worked up about it most of the time anymore. Defeat is just something I’ve unfortunately learned to accept to some degree. And I say this as a woman who's gifted, relatively privileged at this point in her life, high-achieving, etc. But I grew up in a situation where I had to accept that anything I wanted might be denied to me (by my father, naturally), for no reason, financial reasons, spite for being "difficult," or other things entirely beyond my control. I've only just begun to name and own the anger and frustration I have about a lot of things. This all reminds me of this article I read a couple days ago about women's anger. Yet I can still go back to that equanimity, that compartmentalization to the point of depersonalization, what I used to call "going unconscious," just to get through the day. I go through periods when I can allow myself to be more conscious; then when things get bad enough again, too much to ignore, I draw inward again, like the numb trolleybus of Sylvia Plath's imagining.
it still takes a woman, on average, 9.28 years of suffering to be diagnosed with endometriosis, a condition caused by endometrial tissue growing outside the uterus. By that time, many find that not just sex but everyday existence has become a life-deforming challenge. That's a blunt biological reality if ever there was one
Yup, basically same deal with PCOS—it's taken me at least 5 years, probably longer, including the entire last year of persistent effort, trying new medications, etc. once I decided to really press the point and figure out what was going on with my body, to get diagnosed and then prescribed things that are only just starting to help. I spent more than 45 hours of weekday time going to my own doctor's appointments over the course of the past year, in addition to dealing with my husband's condition, because I decided it was finally time to prioritize my own health, because if I didn't no one ever would. And even then I get these stupid ultimatums from people like a male endocrinologist who wants to prescribe me either a diet or weight-loss pills or stop seeing me, as if I'm noncompliant for not wanting to take amphetamines that my insurance doesn't cover and that may not help with any sort of weight loss anyway, because that's how PCOS is. Similarly, it took me at least 2 years to get a rare skin condition diagnosed (again, finally this year, because I pressed the point) because medical providers just looked at it at multiple points and were like "Eh, that doesn’t look like a big deal." They only got interested once it had basically taken over my torso and started to spread to my neck and face. It's hard sometimes when I have both legit reasons to be sad and hormonal reasons to be sad—also it's kind of sad that I just typed that sentence, since aren't hormonal reasons legit reasons? And yet...
Like I was reflecting on my way home about this insurance and medication situation I ended up dealing with for the entire afternoon, I am at this point a person of decent means, a person who thankfully has the flexibility to spend the afternoon in medical purgatory. And even still, this is what I'm dealing with, and I think about how much worse it is for women who don't even have what I have and yet are still dealing with these same issues, afraid to speak up lest they lose their job, get deported, lose opportunities, or just lose a chance at some small personal support, much less fulfillment. AGH!
I rage on our collective behalf, however unbecoming it might sound to anyone who doesn't know me or who might come across this in the future.
posted by limeonaire at 7:02 PM on January 25, 2018 [64 favorites]
Well, no worries. I feel like everything I just wrote is TMI. And yet that's just one of the things that keeps us from talking frankly about these kinds of issues, right? I'm starting to care less about what other people might consider to be TMI. We're human, and only through recognizing that will we be able to transcend our baser natures.
Women are enculturated to be uncomfortable most of the time. And to ignore their discomfort.
I literally told a friend this earlier: I think there is some part of me that's almost more comfortable when everything is uncomfortable and sucks, like maybe it's that that just simplifies things? I don't really have to worry about the hard questions about personal fulfillment or integrity or life goals or fulfilling my potential when situations are terrible and out of my control, heh. And I wasn't saying that was good, but it was interesting to me to observe that about myself, as I found myself back in triage mode this afternoon and realized I was almost...comfortable, even as I was hating it. It's like how this year I deliberately chose to say yes to the work of co-hosting an event on my birthday, because at least then I was making the choice to be somewhat uncomfortable on my birthday, rather than waiting around for someone to surprise me with fulfillment and ending up uncomfortable anyway. This is kind of mind-bending stuff to consider.
But you know, heh, when I was sitting there on a bench by the pharmacy late this afternoon, so upset and frustrated at the insurance and pharmacy purgatory I found myself in that I couldn't help crying, this tiny little boy asked his mother in Spanish why I was sad, and she stopped and sat down to talk to me and asked me what was wrong, performing that emotional labor at her son's behest and also because she was worried too, I think, and I had so many thoughts. Like this adorable little boy is so sweet to worry about me and not want to leave until his mom talks to me and makes sure I'm OK. And she was the second person to ask if I was OK or needed help—I wasn't sure if they were just reading my expression of distress or what. Maybe people thought the big sad lady in gray sweats I threw on to get out the door was in financial trouble—or maybe I fit their mental model of someone in a worse situation?
I started crying because I had just found out that due to new practices instituted by my insurance company, probably because of posturing regarding the opioid crisis and all that—on top of my husband not listening to me when I said maybe he should stay in the hospital a day or so and get tests and not use up all his pain medication trying to ride things out at home with me as his nurse, of course—I might have to deal with the same situation again in a week, and I couldn't take it. I think part of the reason I started crying as well was that due to this whole medical situation, among other things, it's in question whether I'll ever get to raise a little guy like that. And I was thinking about how this lovely woman and her son, who speak Spanish, are the kind of people who terrible people in this country don't want to be here. (I ended up driving to the pharmacy behind some dude in a pickup truck with a "Rebel Boy" Confederate flag bumper sticker, so I'm sure that didn't help.) And also, perhaps more germane to this thread, it reminded me that little boys aren't born not caring about women. One of my nephews said something earlier this week that also showed this amazing empathy for women. But toxic masculinity is this creeping, horrible thing that too often destroys that empathy that little boys have from their earliest days and leads women to deny ourselves even the recognition of our own pain.
a known psychological phenomenon called "relative deprivation," by which disenfranchised groups, having been trained to expect little, tend paradoxically to report the same levels of satisfaction as their better-treated, more privileged peers
I know this one well. This seems related to what I was just trying to describe to my therapist earlier in the week, how I sometimes preemptively compromise or give up on things I care about because I’m so used to just not getting the things I want, I can’t even get worked up about it most of the time anymore. Defeat is just something I’ve unfortunately learned to accept to some degree. And I say this as a woman who's gifted, relatively privileged at this point in her life, high-achieving, etc. But I grew up in a situation where I had to accept that anything I wanted might be denied to me (by my father, naturally), for no reason, financial reasons, spite for being "difficult," or other things entirely beyond my control. I've only just begun to name and own the anger and frustration I have about a lot of things. This all reminds me of this article I read a couple days ago about women's anger. Yet I can still go back to that equanimity, that compartmentalization to the point of depersonalization, what I used to call "going unconscious," just to get through the day. I go through periods when I can allow myself to be more conscious; then when things get bad enough again, too much to ignore, I draw inward again, like the numb trolleybus of Sylvia Plath's imagining.
it still takes a woman, on average, 9.28 years of suffering to be diagnosed with endometriosis, a condition caused by endometrial tissue growing outside the uterus. By that time, many find that not just sex but everyday existence has become a life-deforming challenge. That's a blunt biological reality if ever there was one
Yup, basically same deal with PCOS—it's taken me at least 5 years, probably longer, including the entire last year of persistent effort, trying new medications, etc. once I decided to really press the point and figure out what was going on with my body, to get diagnosed and then prescribed things that are only just starting to help. I spent more than 45 hours of weekday time going to my own doctor's appointments over the course of the past year, in addition to dealing with my husband's condition, because I decided it was finally time to prioritize my own health, because if I didn't no one ever would. And even then I get these stupid ultimatums from people like a male endocrinologist who wants to prescribe me either a diet or weight-loss pills or stop seeing me, as if I'm noncompliant for not wanting to take amphetamines that my insurance doesn't cover and that may not help with any sort of weight loss anyway, because that's how PCOS is. Similarly, it took me at least 2 years to get a rare skin condition diagnosed (again, finally this year, because I pressed the point) because medical providers just looked at it at multiple points and were like "Eh, that doesn’t look like a big deal." They only got interested once it had basically taken over my torso and started to spread to my neck and face. It's hard sometimes when I have both legit reasons to be sad and hormonal reasons to be sad—also it's kind of sad that I just typed that sentence, since aren't hormonal reasons legit reasons? And yet...
Like I was reflecting on my way home about this insurance and medication situation I ended up dealing with for the entire afternoon, I am at this point a person of decent means, a person who thankfully has the flexibility to spend the afternoon in medical purgatory. And even still, this is what I'm dealing with, and I think about how much worse it is for women who don't even have what I have and yet are still dealing with these same issues, afraid to speak up lest they lose their job, get deported, lose opportunities, or just lose a chance at some small personal support, much less fulfillment. AGH!
I rage on our collective behalf, however unbecoming it might sound to anyone who doesn't know me or who might come across this in the future.
posted by limeonaire at 7:02 PM on January 25, 2018 [64 favorites]
Just a shout-out to all the amazing women of Metafilter who share their lived experiences and participate in these conversations. As a woman, you have helped me understand my lived experiences so much better than I ever could alone. Thank you. I love you.
posted by Thella at 7:58 PM on January 25, 2018 [63 favorites]
posted by Thella at 7:58 PM on January 25, 2018 [63 favorites]
To make JustKeepSwimming a little less alone in the TMI--
look, it took me eight years of gynecological visits before someone went "huh, you haven't been able to obtain a Pap smear without massive pain, maybe that's.... something we should seriously look into instead of going 'let's wait a year on that, we'll try again then!'"
eight. years. before a fucking doctor bothered to pause and think "...maybe...?" and check to see if maybe there was an imperforate hymen there, or something else anatomically up. Someone tried a fucking karyotype before that, but no one actually looked into anything to do with the source of my pain. As it turned out, surprise, and a minor outpatient surgery, a shit ton of money--I am genuinely not sure, in retrospect, if my insurance covered jack shit on that judging from the years of medical bills I got--and one delightfully macabre sympathy cake later, problem more or less fixed.
Eight years of weighing whether or not I wanted to go to the gynecologist to get the prescription for the birth control pills that were, theoretically, keeping my hormone levels in check. Eight years of shaking and steeling myself and wondering whether going without my meds was worth not having to walk in that room and know I was going to have to hold still and be hurt for no damn reason--I had never been sexually active and did not intend to be, and have no family history of breast or cervical cancer besides--in order to have access to my fucking meds, because of course the fact that many people use them for birth control means that the medical establishment needs to gatekeep access to them by groping around in our genitals first--and men complain, endlessly, about 'turn and cough' exams that start twenty years after we start to grit our teeth and spread our legs.
Eight years of hyperventilating and being afraid. I had a vaginal ultrasound in this time period. No one fucking noticed a thing, or cared that I hurt and couldn't keep myself from arching in pain. No one thought that warranted looking into.
All this, incidentally, for a disorder almost no one knows jack shit about--what causes it, what it does, long term, how badly it impacts cardiovascular health and body weight and fertility--and which, just incidentally, affects something like 15-20% of dyadic cisgender women.
Just to compare, by the way, there are 1365 clinical trial articles published on PCOS on pubmed, as compared to 1955 articles for erectile dysfunction. This is a disorder that is a) extremely common in women, b) affects a wide range of health issues from weight gain and insulin resistance to cardiac issues to fertility to "vanity" issues like facial hair growth--and yet it gets far less press and public attention than a condition that has no broader impact than, well, the presence or absence of erections.
posted by sciatrix at 8:47 PM on January 25, 2018 [38 favorites]
look, it took me eight years of gynecological visits before someone went "huh, you haven't been able to obtain a Pap smear without massive pain, maybe that's.... something we should seriously look into instead of going 'let's wait a year on that, we'll try again then!'"
eight. years. before a fucking doctor bothered to pause and think "...maybe...?" and check to see if maybe there was an imperforate hymen there, or something else anatomically up. Someone tried a fucking karyotype before that, but no one actually looked into anything to do with the source of my pain. As it turned out, surprise, and a minor outpatient surgery, a shit ton of money--I am genuinely not sure, in retrospect, if my insurance covered jack shit on that judging from the years of medical bills I got--and one delightfully macabre sympathy cake later, problem more or less fixed.
Eight years of weighing whether or not I wanted to go to the gynecologist to get the prescription for the birth control pills that were, theoretically, keeping my hormone levels in check. Eight years of shaking and steeling myself and wondering whether going without my meds was worth not having to walk in that room and know I was going to have to hold still and be hurt for no damn reason--I had never been sexually active and did not intend to be, and have no family history of breast or cervical cancer besides--in order to have access to my fucking meds, because of course the fact that many people use them for birth control means that the medical establishment needs to gatekeep access to them by groping around in our genitals first--and men complain, endlessly, about 'turn and cough' exams that start twenty years after we start to grit our teeth and spread our legs.
Eight years of hyperventilating and being afraid. I had a vaginal ultrasound in this time period. No one fucking noticed a thing, or cared that I hurt and couldn't keep myself from arching in pain. No one thought that warranted looking into.
All this, incidentally, for a disorder almost no one knows jack shit about--what causes it, what it does, long term, how badly it impacts cardiovascular health and body weight and fertility--and which, just incidentally, affects something like 15-20% of dyadic cisgender women.
Just to compare, by the way, there are 1365 clinical trial articles published on PCOS on pubmed, as compared to 1955 articles for erectile dysfunction. This is a disorder that is a) extremely common in women, b) affects a wide range of health issues from weight gain and insulin resistance to cardiac issues to fertility to "vanity" issues like facial hair growth--and yet it gets far less press and public attention than a condition that has no broader impact than, well, the presence or absence of erections.
posted by sciatrix at 8:47 PM on January 25, 2018 [38 favorites]
The part about doctors shrugging off the pain of women, and of shaming them when they have sex outside of wedlock, is very real.
When I was very young and new to having sex I went to doctors with problems I was experiencing. I thought, we aren't in the fifties anymore, so doctors surely would be on board with me having questions, concerns, etc. Nope. In one clinic, after a painful procedure, I remember coming away with the distinct impression that the only women the doctors in that clinic cared about were the ones who pregnant or coming in with babies on their arms. We women who were having sex who weren't doing it to reproduce, and suffering perhaps the normal range of problems for being inexperienced with sex, were treated dismissively. We deserved our pain. We deserved to be sick with whatever the guy gave us. We brought it on ourselves. That sort of thing. I don't think I imagined it, because the doctors I encountered who didn't behave this way, who treated me with respect, these were unusual and are the ones who have my gratitude.
One gynecologist, a woman, told me once, wearily cynical, that there was no point in having girlfriends try and convince their male partners to test for STDs when they were asymptomatic, even if their female partners were obviously ill. "Even if they finally go, a lot of them don't take it seriously," she said. "Not the doctors nor the men. Boys club kind of thing."
posted by Crystal Fox at 8:53 PM on January 25, 2018 [20 favorites]
When I was very young and new to having sex I went to doctors with problems I was experiencing. I thought, we aren't in the fifties anymore, so doctors surely would be on board with me having questions, concerns, etc. Nope. In one clinic, after a painful procedure, I remember coming away with the distinct impression that the only women the doctors in that clinic cared about were the ones who pregnant or coming in with babies on their arms. We women who were having sex who weren't doing it to reproduce, and suffering perhaps the normal range of problems for being inexperienced with sex, were treated dismissively. We deserved our pain. We deserved to be sick with whatever the guy gave us. We brought it on ourselves. That sort of thing. I don't think I imagined it, because the doctors I encountered who didn't behave this way, who treated me with respect, these were unusual and are the ones who have my gratitude.
One gynecologist, a woman, told me once, wearily cynical, that there was no point in having girlfriends try and convince their male partners to test for STDs when they were asymptomatic, even if their female partners were obviously ill. "Even if they finally go, a lot of them don't take it seriously," she said. "Not the doctors nor the men. Boys club kind of thing."
posted by Crystal Fox at 8:53 PM on January 25, 2018 [20 favorites]
And of course this all applies to so much more than sex. I'm working on a tendency I have to be a "people pleaser" and one thing I have noticed is that I'm about 50% more assertive with women than men (about relatively trivial things like not eating food or seeing movies I don't want to).
Yes this AND a thing I really hate is all the eyerolling stereotypes about women that are based on behaviors we use to adapt to an unhealthy situation. Lol women they're so passive aggressive, lol women they never say what they really think, lol women who understands them, lol women they take forever to get ready, lol women are such bitches can't I say hi, lol I wasn't hitting on you you're stuck up, lol no one WANTS to take out the trash what a dumb thing to say. There is SO MUCH MEDIA and SO MANY SHITTY MALE COMEDIANS and movies written by shitty male comedians about how women are inscrutable or bad and illogical instead of taking the time to realize that, in fact, these behaviors are 100% reasonable responses to a situation that is harmful and dangerous. Maybe we're not the problem, assholes.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 5:18 AM on January 26, 2018 [66 favorites]
Yes this AND a thing I really hate is all the eyerolling stereotypes about women that are based on behaviors we use to adapt to an unhealthy situation. Lol women they're so passive aggressive, lol women they never say what they really think, lol women who understands them, lol women they take forever to get ready, lol women are such bitches can't I say hi, lol I wasn't hitting on you you're stuck up, lol no one WANTS to take out the trash what a dumb thing to say. There is SO MUCH MEDIA and SO MANY SHITTY MALE COMEDIANS and movies written by shitty male comedians about how women are inscrutable or bad and illogical instead of taking the time to realize that, in fact, these behaviors are 100% reasonable responses to a situation that is harmful and dangerous. Maybe we're not the problem, assholes.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 5:18 AM on January 26, 2018 [66 favorites]
One gynecologist, a woman, told me once, wearily cynical, that there was no point in having girlfriends try and convince their male partners to test for STDs when they were asymptomatic, even if their female partners were obviously ill.
In my work, we are having a devil of a time trying to convince women to consider HIV pre-exposure prophylaxis. Even if their partner is having extremely risky behaviors, because it means that she doesn't trust him and that is not something that is done.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:24 AM on January 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
In my work, we are having a devil of a time trying to convince women to consider HIV pre-exposure prophylaxis. Even if their partner is having extremely risky behaviors, because it means that she doesn't trust him and that is not something that is done.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:24 AM on January 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
one thing I have noticed is that I'm about 50% more assertive with women than men (about relatively trivial things like not eating food or seeing movies I don't want to)
I love it when my female friends say no to me. Saying “no, I don’t want to do that” is an act of love and trust, a way of saying “I have faith that you will not punish me for this particular 'no'.” Making space for the people you love to feel comfortable and safe and fulfilled is an absolute joy. Setting a boundary with the implicit belief that it will be guarded from both sides is beautiful.
And yet most of the men I know— even the loving, liberal, funny, kind ones— react to a “no” with frustration or pushback or “well why not???” Every “no” is like a dare to persuade, instead of an opportunity to accommodate.
I love it when women say no, because women are so acculturated to say yes yes yes yes, to go along to get along, to be pleasant and compliant.
A woman’s no can be an incredible act of intimacy. I wish that men saw it this way.
(Also, in my experience, women are more likely to say "no, but what about this instead?" That no is a beginning of collaboration, not a rejection. I'm fanatic about that no.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:59 AM on January 26, 2018 [35 favorites]
I love it when my female friends say no to me. Saying “no, I don’t want to do that” is an act of love and trust, a way of saying “I have faith that you will not punish me for this particular 'no'.” Making space for the people you love to feel comfortable and safe and fulfilled is an absolute joy. Setting a boundary with the implicit belief that it will be guarded from both sides is beautiful.
And yet most of the men I know— even the loving, liberal, funny, kind ones— react to a “no” with frustration or pushback or “well why not???” Every “no” is like a dare to persuade, instead of an opportunity to accommodate.
I love it when women say no, because women are so acculturated to say yes yes yes yes, to go along to get along, to be pleasant and compliant.
A woman’s no can be an incredible act of intimacy. I wish that men saw it this way.
(Also, in my experience, women are more likely to say "no, but what about this instead?" That no is a beginning of collaboration, not a rejection. I'm fanatic about that no.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:59 AM on January 26, 2018 [35 favorites]
Last week, I had one of those late night conversations with a friend... you know the kind where you bare your souls and walk away feeling like you are going to make positive changes in your life.
My friend flat out told me as an observation that I don't trust people very easily. I was both taken aback and wanted to say, "That's not true."
But it is true. I don't trust people easily. And a lot of it stems from all these sorts of interactions where I've not been centered, where my needs aren't taken seriously, and so on... so yes, I want to scream, of course, I don't trust people easily.
However, when the advice to open up more and let go of past hurts is coming from a far more marginalized person than me (a trans woman immigrant from a country she can't safely go back to)... I also think why am I holding onto this? Why don't I simply demand better interactions with men? Where would I be if I opened up more? And what can I do to center myself in my interactions more and make sure people take my needs seriously?
Thanks Metafilter for helping me realize I'm not alone.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 8:49 AM on January 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
My friend flat out told me as an observation that I don't trust people very easily. I was both taken aback and wanted to say, "That's not true."
But it is true. I don't trust people easily. And a lot of it stems from all these sorts of interactions where I've not been centered, where my needs aren't taken seriously, and so on... so yes, I want to scream, of course, I don't trust people easily.
However, when the advice to open up more and let go of past hurts is coming from a far more marginalized person than me (a trans woman immigrant from a country she can't safely go back to)... I also think why am I holding onto this? Why don't I simply demand better interactions with men? Where would I be if I opened up more? And what can I do to center myself in my interactions more and make sure people take my needs seriously?
Thanks Metafilter for helping me realize I'm not alone.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 8:49 AM on January 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
this adorable little boy is so sweet to worry about me and not want to leave until his mom talks to me and makes sure I'm OK
I was venting about a spaghetti code issue I have this morning (due to a spaghetti brain project manager) to my tween kid and he asked me straight up if there was anything he could do. I said, startled, “yes!” And put my head on his shoulder a moment. Then I said thanks and got him on his Myfter* ride to school.
So this is getting better generationally. I know it’s not just us but his friends and teachers too.
*neighborhood carpool collective. I’m afternoons.
posted by tilde at 9:12 AM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
I don’t know if I’m going to be able to contribute my own stories to this thread — every time I try, I get so mad that it’s hard to focus, and it’s...not great — but I wanted to thank everyone who has told their own stories. And also...
However, when the advice to open up more and let go of past hurts is coming from a far more marginalized person than me (a trans woman immigrant from a country she can't safely go back to)... I also think why am I holding onto this? Why don't I simply demand better interactions with men? Where would I be if I opened up more? And what can I do to center myself in my interactions more and make sure people take my needs seriously?
The thing about trauma is that it’s sometimes most insidious and persistently damaging when it’s covert, rather than overt, and especially when there is no obvious physical damage or threat to externalize the experience. People sometimes flinch at the use of the word “trauma,” but...a lifetime of these interactions trains your nervous system. And our understanding of how trauma works is just beginning to expand to include and understand the myriad ways your nervous system can get fucked up.
We all employ different coping mechanisms to deal with the emotional, psychological, or physical threats that we face, and we keep using those coping mechanisms when they work in the short term, even if they exact a price in the long term. Sometimes it’s appropriate to freeze, to fight, to fawn, to flee, to dissociate, to numb our, to go into a wrote routine like a dressage horse triggered into “just get through this interaction” routine. If we have to repeat them often enough it can be difficult to distinguish between who we are and the shit we have to deal with.
I’ve found a bunch of books helpful on this, but right now the one that seems the most helpful and salient to these discussion is Janina Fisher’s clunkily titled “Healing the Fragmented Selves Of Trauma Survivors.”
It’s a mix of techniques and ideas from some of the newer stuff in trauma research, biased towards what she’s seen work in clinical practice. It’s a practical tool box. But what’s really striking to me is how much of it resonates with literally just...being a woman.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:32 AM on January 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
However, when the advice to open up more and let go of past hurts is coming from a far more marginalized person than me (a trans woman immigrant from a country she can't safely go back to)... I also think why am I holding onto this? Why don't I simply demand better interactions with men? Where would I be if I opened up more? And what can I do to center myself in my interactions more and make sure people take my needs seriously?
The thing about trauma is that it’s sometimes most insidious and persistently damaging when it’s covert, rather than overt, and especially when there is no obvious physical damage or threat to externalize the experience. People sometimes flinch at the use of the word “trauma,” but...a lifetime of these interactions trains your nervous system. And our understanding of how trauma works is just beginning to expand to include and understand the myriad ways your nervous system can get fucked up.
We all employ different coping mechanisms to deal with the emotional, psychological, or physical threats that we face, and we keep using those coping mechanisms when they work in the short term, even if they exact a price in the long term. Sometimes it’s appropriate to freeze, to fight, to fawn, to flee, to dissociate, to numb our, to go into a wrote routine like a dressage horse triggered into “just get through this interaction” routine. If we have to repeat them often enough it can be difficult to distinguish between who we are and the shit we have to deal with.
I’ve found a bunch of books helpful on this, but right now the one that seems the most helpful and salient to these discussion is Janina Fisher’s clunkily titled “Healing the Fragmented Selves Of Trauma Survivors.”
It’s a mix of techniques and ideas from some of the newer stuff in trauma research, biased towards what she’s seen work in clinical practice. It’s a practical tool box. But what’s really striking to me is how much of it resonates with literally just...being a woman.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:32 AM on January 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
And yet most of the men I know— even the loving, liberal, funny, kind ones— react to a “no” with frustration or pushback or “well why not???” Every “no” is like a dare to persuade, instead of an opportunity to accommodate.
Small victory in that I have started, in just the last couple of years, to respond to this pushback with "look, I'm not going to debate my answer with you. You asked me for my opinion and I gave it to you. You don't have to agree with my opinion. Don't stand there and try to force me to agree with yours."
(Caveat: This is within my own family. I would not respond that way to any man in the general population, you know, for fear of being physically attacked.)
The look on the other person's face is always the same - mouth open to continue arguing, eyes go up to the ceiling for a second as they register what I said and then decide whether or not they want to respect my boundaries, mouth closes and they walk away.
It's not perfect, but it's a start.
posted by vignettist at 10:01 AM on January 26, 2018 [23 favorites]
Small victory in that I have started, in just the last couple of years, to respond to this pushback with "look, I'm not going to debate my answer with you. You asked me for my opinion and I gave it to you. You don't have to agree with my opinion. Don't stand there and try to force me to agree with yours."
(Caveat: This is within my own family. I would not respond that way to any man in the general population, you know, for fear of being physically attacked.)
The look on the other person's face is always the same - mouth open to continue arguing, eyes go up to the ceiling for a second as they register what I said and then decide whether or not they want to respect my boundaries, mouth closes and they walk away.
It's not perfect, but it's a start.
posted by vignettist at 10:01 AM on January 26, 2018 [23 favorites]
I remember coming away with the distinct impression that the only women the doctors in that clinic cared about were the ones who
I'm glad that articles like this get posted. Little by little we get a bit more "woke".
I am reminded of a post that was made yesterday that was explicitly dismissive of some concerns that are very serious for our family.
While it's important to have this discussion and raise our consciousness about how women are socialized to accept dismissal, once we learn and practice not accepting dismissal in our own lives, I think we need to examine how we have internalized and also commit the dismissal of others, especially and particularly when we are committing dismissal that was taught to us by those to whom our society has granted authority.
To bring it back to this thread, we should not be dismissive of women for medical concerns, when we know that those women have already been dismissed by doctors. We should not be dismissive of someone who is exercising a new trust in their own instincts. If we ourselves are not an expert in that particular topic, if we have not educated ourselves on the topic, we need to.learn to just be quietly (or even loudly) supportive while a person tries to solve their concern.
But still, all too often, we call other people crazy. Which is just what (again, to bring it back to this thread) doctors and others have already been doing. To add a recent meme to the conversation - What if we just believe her?
posted by vignettist at 10:32 AM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm glad that articles like this get posted. Little by little we get a bit more "woke".
I am reminded of a post that was made yesterday that was explicitly dismissive of some concerns that are very serious for our family.
While it's important to have this discussion and raise our consciousness about how women are socialized to accept dismissal, once we learn and practice not accepting dismissal in our own lives, I think we need to examine how we have internalized and also commit the dismissal of others, especially and particularly when we are committing dismissal that was taught to us by those to whom our society has granted authority.
To bring it back to this thread, we should not be dismissive of women for medical concerns, when we know that those women have already been dismissed by doctors. We should not be dismissive of someone who is exercising a new trust in their own instincts. If we ourselves are not an expert in that particular topic, if we have not educated ourselves on the topic, we need to.learn to just be quietly (or even loudly) supportive while a person tries to solve their concern.
But still, all too often, we call other people crazy. Which is just what (again, to bring it back to this thread) doctors and others have already been doing. To add a recent meme to the conversation - What if we just believe her?
posted by vignettist at 10:32 AM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
If we can't even get our doctors to take our pain seriously, how are we going to convince our partners to?
In nearly fifteen years of going to gynecologists, I have yet to have a single doctor - not even one - take me seriously, address my concerns, take a look at the things I wanted looked at, and if they thought it wasn't a problem, EXPLAIN WHY. I have had problems that have bothered me for ten years, and doctors have been like "well it's not this imminent health risk, so move on!" I have not had even one doctor say "well if it bothers you let's see what we can do." Not even one. My discomfort and frustration is irrelevant to them.
posted by corb at 10:35 AM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
In nearly fifteen years of going to gynecologists, I have yet to have a single doctor - not even one - take me seriously, address my concerns, take a look at the things I wanted looked at, and if they thought it wasn't a problem, EXPLAIN WHY. I have had problems that have bothered me for ten years, and doctors have been like "well it's not this imminent health risk, so move on!" I have not had even one doctor say "well if it bothers you let's see what we can do." Not even one. My discomfort and frustration is irrelevant to them.
posted by corb at 10:35 AM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
I now want to put together an underground "Competent Doctor" list. Like the "Shitty Media Men" list, except for doctors who actually listen to female patients concerns.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 10:45 AM on January 26, 2018 [23 favorites]
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 10:45 AM on January 26, 2018 [23 favorites]
I feel so angry for all of you who can't get doctors to take you seriously. I've had my share, of course, but right now all of my medical professionals are amazing.
On preview: YES, JustKeepSwimming, that is a FANTASTIC idea.
posted by cooker girl at 10:49 AM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
On preview: YES, JustKeepSwimming, that is a FANTASTIC idea.
posted by cooker girl at 10:49 AM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have not had even one doctor say "well if it bothers you let's see what we can do."
I had this experience until I started seeing The World's Greatest Nurse Midwife (a dude!). It was a revelation. He had his own stand-alone office and scheduled an hour with each patient. AN HOUR! We talked for 30 minutes before it was even time to go to the exam room. I loved him. He moved away about a year before I actually got knocked up but he gave me incredible care for close to a decade. I now see a CNM practice affiliated with a hospital and they're good but they definitely are not scheduling an hour per patient good. Still though I give the midwife there credit for, when I talked about the possibility of my IUD diminishing my sex drive and making another birth control choice, she was like hey tell your husband to get a vasectomy (I did, he did) instead of being all mealymouthed about the precious precious sacred nutsack that must only be spoken of with great reverence and respect.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:49 AM on January 26, 2018 [16 favorites]
I had this experience until I started seeing The World's Greatest Nurse Midwife (a dude!). It was a revelation. He had his own stand-alone office and scheduled an hour with each patient. AN HOUR! We talked for 30 minutes before it was even time to go to the exam room. I loved him. He moved away about a year before I actually got knocked up but he gave me incredible care for close to a decade. I now see a CNM practice affiliated with a hospital and they're good but they definitely are not scheduling an hour per patient good. Still though I give the midwife there credit for, when I talked about the possibility of my IUD diminishing my sex drive and making another birth control choice, she was like hey tell your husband to get a vasectomy (I did, he did) instead of being all mealymouthed about the precious precious sacred nutsack that must only be spoken of with great reverence and respect.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:49 AM on January 26, 2018 [16 favorites]
Yeah, I've had the good fortune to have a great PCP now, and two other great ones in the other places I lived recently. But this only came about because I had the privilege and capital of being able to "shop" around for a good doctor--and to "fire" the terrible one I had in the interim, who gave me a screamingly painful pap smear and shrugged it off.
It is a standing outrage that so few women have the time, energy, access, or health coverage that allows them to find a doctor who will actually listen and who can actually professionally attend to their bodies.
posted by TwoStride at 12:00 PM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
It is a standing outrage that so few women have the time, energy, access, or health coverage that allows them to find a doctor who will actually listen and who can actually professionally attend to their bodies.
posted by TwoStride at 12:00 PM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
There is so much indoctrination of attitudes as well as knowledge for doctors in medical schools - for example, there is a well-studied decline in empathy in medical students between beginning the course and graduation. I am not intending to defend doctors who ignore pain during sex or female pain; more that the ones who do listen to women, who take their pain seriously and so on, are the ones who managed to avoid both a societal and an institutional acculturation to do the opposite.
And on the subject of pain - I knew what endometriosis was from when I was a teenager. But I couldn't have that. I was being a wuss about pain. Those women who had endometriosis must have it really bad, because obviously it must be worse than my pain. Cut to seventeen years later and a diagnosis of severe endometriosis. The thing is - other people did take my pain seriously. My parents took me to the doctor as a teenager, who took me seriously, and while not catching that it was endometriosis he did give me good symptomatic treatment. Even in that supportive setting, I had already internalised that I should dismiss my own discomfort.
posted by Vortisaur at 12:56 PM on January 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
And on the subject of pain - I knew what endometriosis was from when I was a teenager. But I couldn't have that. I was being a wuss about pain. Those women who had endometriosis must have it really bad, because obviously it must be worse than my pain. Cut to seventeen years later and a diagnosis of severe endometriosis. The thing is - other people did take my pain seriously. My parents took me to the doctor as a teenager, who took me seriously, and while not catching that it was endometriosis he did give me good symptomatic treatment. Even in that supportive setting, I had already internalised that I should dismiss my own discomfort.
posted by Vortisaur at 12:56 PM on January 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
I think there is some part of me that's almost more comfortable when everything is uncomfortable and sucks, like maybe it's that that just simplifies things? I don't really have to worry about the hard questions about personal fulfillment or integrity or life goals or fulfilling my potential when situations are terrible and out of my control, heh.
how I sometimes preemptively compromise or give up on things I care about because I’m so used to just not getting the things I want, I can’t even get worked up about it most of the time anymore. Defeat is just something I’ve unfortunately learned to accept to some degree.
Seconded. I'm never going to get what I want if getting what I want requires the help and support of other people, because other people do not come through for me. I don't necessarily like that being my story and don't want things to be that way, but life always seems to go back to that. I am feeling grumbly on this topic right now anyway, but I pretty much feel like it's my job and life to eat shit and smile about it.
On a related note on the question of whether or not women are even human: I got introduced to this song on the topic.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:29 PM on January 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
how I sometimes preemptively compromise or give up on things I care about because I’m so used to just not getting the things I want, I can’t even get worked up about it most of the time anymore. Defeat is just something I’ve unfortunately learned to accept to some degree.
Seconded. I'm never going to get what I want if getting what I want requires the help and support of other people, because other people do not come through for me. I don't necessarily like that being my story and don't want things to be that way, but life always seems to go back to that. I am feeling grumbly on this topic right now anyway, but I pretty much feel like it's my job and life to eat shit and smile about it.
On a related note on the question of whether or not women are even human: I got introduced to this song on the topic.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:29 PM on January 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
I've given up on male doctors, I always limit my searches to female, plus I shy away from MDs/DOs and prefer PAs and Nurse Practitioners. It took me until into my 40s to make this change. Once I did, things got easier and less frustrating, and I'm getting much better treatment.
This article is so spot on. I am currently experiencing some trouble trying to gently convince my current boyfriend to use a different technique, but it seems to anger him sometimes. I take directions all the time, why can't he? Why wouldn't you want to please your partner if they tell you something feels better "this way"? All rhetorical, of course. Deciding on DMTFA, or not.
posted by haunted by Leonard Cohen at 1:30 PM on January 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
This article is so spot on. I am currently experiencing some trouble trying to gently convince my current boyfriend to use a different technique, but it seems to anger him sometimes. I take directions all the time, why can't he? Why wouldn't you want to please your partner if they tell you something feels better "this way"? All rhetorical, of course. Deciding on DMTFA, or not.
posted by haunted by Leonard Cohen at 1:30 PM on January 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
I am in tears. I love you so much, my metafilter sisters. So much.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:46 PM on January 26, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:46 PM on January 26, 2018 [18 favorites]
What's really tough for me about the doctor dismissal thing is the same thing that's tough about the hiding discomfort during sex thing: self-blame.
I am very aware that both problems could be greatly improved if I was more pushy with doctors and more complainy during sex (note, I already am quite open about it if the pain is easily fixed or reaches my arbitrary threshold of "bad enough"). I am also very aware that people would be quick to blame me for being too passive if I say, talked about it on Facebook. Seems like a simple solution, right.
It's just SO difficult for me to cause a fuss when something isn't severely damaging me. I don't really understand why, because in general I'm overly blunt, stubborn and if anything, too strong in asserting what I want to do. But in these specific situations, maybe especially with men (not actually sure) I feel completely unable to be "difficult". Maybe it's specific to people I don't know well, or people I'm nervous about liking me, since my close friends would tell you I'm certainly not slow to complain!
posted by randomnity at 1:54 PM on January 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
I am very aware that both problems could be greatly improved if I was more pushy with doctors and more complainy during sex (note, I already am quite open about it if the pain is easily fixed or reaches my arbitrary threshold of "bad enough"). I am also very aware that people would be quick to blame me for being too passive if I say, talked about it on Facebook. Seems like a simple solution, right.
It's just SO difficult for me to cause a fuss when something isn't severely damaging me. I don't really understand why, because in general I'm overly blunt, stubborn and if anything, too strong in asserting what I want to do. But in these specific situations, maybe especially with men (not actually sure) I feel completely unable to be "difficult". Maybe it's specific to people I don't know well, or people I'm nervous about liking me, since my close friends would tell you I'm certainly not slow to complain!
posted by randomnity at 1:54 PM on January 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
It becomes a choice of, “Do I tolerate this physical pain, or the inevitable backlash of shaming and demeaning that comes with vocalizing my expectation that my needs are important?” Sometimes the pain is easier to deal with, and more short-lived, than the hassle.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:22 PM on January 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 2:22 PM on January 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
In thinking about this more, I have to give a lot of thanks to the HAES movement for giving me the encouragement to stand up for doctors--in pushing back against poor treatement because of my weight, I also realized that I could do things like, you know, demand to be treated by a doctor who could perform a pap in a way that made me comfortable. (And for me personally, demanding that my PCP be a woman has really helped increase my odds of being listened to, though the worst one I had was also a woman, so.... Sigh).
posted by TwoStride at 2:29 PM on January 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 2:29 PM on January 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oh god yes, poor treatment because of weight. I have been struggling with working up a “How Can I Lose Forty Pounds In A Year” AskMe, because my current fertility specialist refuses to help me unless I lose 40 pounds, because he says it’s irresponsible for a lady my weight to get pregnant and since I have fertility problems I can’t get pregnant without help, so...my fucking childbearing is literally held hostage to a dude who thinks I am too fat. And my insurance provider does not count “fat shaming asshole” as an appropriate reason to change providers.
posted by corb at 2:51 PM on January 26, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by corb at 2:51 PM on January 26, 2018 [19 favorites]
Ugh, obviously that should have read "stand up to doctors"--and Corb, that is infuriating. I wish you got to shop doctors like I did!
posted by TwoStride at 2:55 PM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by TwoStride at 2:55 PM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
A lot of this discussion about medical care makes me think about the Medicare-for-all thread. "Well, we could still get all the healthcare we need, just not all those frivolous unnecessary fripperies that pushy, demanding Americans always ask for." The solution obviously isn't to stick with our shitty for-profit system, but I worry that the stereotype of the whiny nagging patient costing the system a boatload of extra money is particularly poisonous to women who already aren't being taken seriously by the medical system.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 3:23 PM on January 26, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Ralston McTodd at 3:23 PM on January 26, 2018 [10 favorites]
This article is amazing. I cried and cried and I posted it on Facebook and only two people read it, and that sort of made poetic fucking sense all things considered. Starting in 2017 I decided to center women, and this article perfectly describes why. I am more ready than ever to fight for my sisters any way I can this year and beyond. I'm going to read it again to get more fired up.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 3:30 PM on January 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by masquesoporfavor at 3:30 PM on January 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
Re medical: I have lupus. I didn't discover I had lupus until I was 50, and finally got to the No Fucks Given, Take No Hostages stage of cronehood. Decades, I spent decades trying to convince people that something was wrong. It got brushed off with "Oh, you're just hormonal," or whatever the current version of "hysteria" is that they label women who don't fit into neat tidy diagnostic checkboxes.
Corb, you want I should come up and have a talk with this doctor for you? (You have to hear that in my family's New Jersey accent for it to be as funny as it is in my head, probably.) The weight loss before treatment is bullshit, especially if we're talking about 40 pounds. If they were saying, "Oh ya know, that extra 300 pounds you've got, see...that's not good," but 40 pounds? Fuck that trophy wife demanding bastard right in his tiny discriminating brain. All insurance should cover a second opinion. You may have to prequalify it, depending on policy, but I'm almost positive that all policies cover a second opinion for large procedures, and IVF is a large procedure. I am so sorry you're dealing with that.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:45 PM on January 26, 2018 [15 favorites]
Corb, you want I should come up and have a talk with this doctor for you? (You have to hear that in my family's New Jersey accent for it to be as funny as it is in my head, probably.) The weight loss before treatment is bullshit, especially if we're talking about 40 pounds. If they were saying, "Oh ya know, that extra 300 pounds you've got, see...that's not good," but 40 pounds? Fuck that trophy wife demanding bastard right in his tiny discriminating brain. All insurance should cover a second opinion. You may have to prequalify it, depending on policy, but I'm almost positive that all policies cover a second opinion for large procedures, and IVF is a large procedure. I am so sorry you're dealing with that.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:45 PM on January 26, 2018 [15 favorites]
It's so hard to acknowledge this shit.
posted by goofyfoot at 9:03 PM on January 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by goofyfoot at 9:03 PM on January 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Oh, what an unwashed yeast infection of a doctor, corb! Let me know if I can help in any way with that asshole. I swear that's fucking malpractice, except for the way our medical professionals are literally trained to shame us about weight.
Did I mention that that hormonal condition limeonaire and I were discussing upthread has weight gain as possibly the most common symptom? As well as being literally the most fucking common fertility issue in women?
Christ on a crutch.
posted by sciatrix at 6:30 AM on January 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
Did I mention that that hormonal condition limeonaire and I were discussing upthread has weight gain as possibly the most common symptom? As well as being literally the most fucking common fertility issue in women?
Christ on a crutch.
posted by sciatrix at 6:30 AM on January 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
However, when the advice to open up more and let go of past hurts is coming from a far more marginalized person than me (a trans woman immigrant from a country she can't safely go back to)... I also think why am I holding onto this? Why don't I simply demand better interactions with men? Where would I be if I opened up more? And what can I do to center myself in my interactions more and make sure people take my needs seriously?
And--look, I want to bring this up, JustKeepSwimming, because trust issues are one of the big places I go around and around with my therapist. I chose that therapist specifically because she's an older woman who shares many of my marginalizations, and because I wanted that benefit of another take from someone wiser than me who has experienced some of the same constraints and survival pressures.
I've asked her this question, too, is the thing. The thing she consistently tells me is that, look, the reason you don't just drop everything and demand better--the reason you specifically don't do this--is because your past experience keeps telling you that when you do, you don't get it. So one of my ongoing struggles is to learn when it's safe to open up, when it's worth it to pick a fight over my treatment... and when it's better for me to neither open up (and make myself vulnerable) nor stand up for myself (and risk damage to myself in the process), but to simply accept that the world is an unfair place. Accepting the world is unfair and letting that harm go doesn't mean that I allow my commitment to changing that world to wane; just that I am choosing when to spend myself wisely.
I'll let you know when I manage to follow that advice, of course. But I don't think she's wrong, and I think your own friend might be thinking along the same lines. You have those lack-of-trust coping mechanisms for a reason, and while they're not always helpful or useful to your general functioning, you shouldn't forget why they're there in the first place while you try to adjust them in order to let more positive connections in. The defenses aren't the problem--the fact that they're not easily gated is the issue. At least, that's what is going on with me.
I am opening up as much as I do here because I trust you, Metafilter. I trust that the consequences here will not outweigh the benefits of speaking my mind; the benefits of feeling solidarity echo back from the people who sit and listen here. That is not the way I always frame myself elsewhere; my best friend actually remarked the other day that I'd only really started letting him in after a year or two of knowing him, and he had been very surprised by the fragility that was sitting there behind the confident exterior I try to project. (And in fact, I remember a moment when I opened up to him about something I was keeping close to my heart, and I remember my teeth literally chattering with fear through the entire conversation. Bless him for not remarking on it.)
So... I suspect what I am trying to say, at heart, boils down to this: you are not wrong for having trust issues. You almost certainly have them for a very good reason. The trust issues exist to protect you based on past experience and, as schadenfrau points out upthread, past trauma. It's just that they are not an adaptive coping mechanism in all situations you might find yourself in, and so it might benefit you to think about green flags and cues you can use to practice releasing them in contexts where you aren't so likely to be hurt. You feel me?
posted by sciatrix at 6:47 AM on January 27, 2018 [19 favorites]
And--look, I want to bring this up, JustKeepSwimming, because trust issues are one of the big places I go around and around with my therapist. I chose that therapist specifically because she's an older woman who shares many of my marginalizations, and because I wanted that benefit of another take from someone wiser than me who has experienced some of the same constraints and survival pressures.
I've asked her this question, too, is the thing. The thing she consistently tells me is that, look, the reason you don't just drop everything and demand better--the reason you specifically don't do this--is because your past experience keeps telling you that when you do, you don't get it. So one of my ongoing struggles is to learn when it's safe to open up, when it's worth it to pick a fight over my treatment... and when it's better for me to neither open up (and make myself vulnerable) nor stand up for myself (and risk damage to myself in the process), but to simply accept that the world is an unfair place. Accepting the world is unfair and letting that harm go doesn't mean that I allow my commitment to changing that world to wane; just that I am choosing when to spend myself wisely.
I'll let you know when I manage to follow that advice, of course. But I don't think she's wrong, and I think your own friend might be thinking along the same lines. You have those lack-of-trust coping mechanisms for a reason, and while they're not always helpful or useful to your general functioning, you shouldn't forget why they're there in the first place while you try to adjust them in order to let more positive connections in. The defenses aren't the problem--the fact that they're not easily gated is the issue. At least, that's what is going on with me.
I am opening up as much as I do here because I trust you, Metafilter. I trust that the consequences here will not outweigh the benefits of speaking my mind; the benefits of feeling solidarity echo back from the people who sit and listen here. That is not the way I always frame myself elsewhere; my best friend actually remarked the other day that I'd only really started letting him in after a year or two of knowing him, and he had been very surprised by the fragility that was sitting there behind the confident exterior I try to project. (And in fact, I remember a moment when I opened up to him about something I was keeping close to my heart, and I remember my teeth literally chattering with fear through the entire conversation. Bless him for not remarking on it.)
So... I suspect what I am trying to say, at heart, boils down to this: you are not wrong for having trust issues. You almost certainly have them for a very good reason. The trust issues exist to protect you based on past experience and, as schadenfrau points out upthread, past trauma. It's just that they are not an adaptive coping mechanism in all situations you might find yourself in, and so it might benefit you to think about green flags and cues you can use to practice releasing them in contexts where you aren't so likely to be hurt. You feel me?
posted by sciatrix at 6:47 AM on January 27, 2018 [19 favorites]
One of the things in that book (and in others) is that in order to integrate and deal with past experiences where you weren’t safe, you have to feel safe now. Oops.
It’s really hard to drop defense mechanisms — which include freezing or dissociating, not speaking up, being invisible — when sometimes they are still the best option in actual real life situations. It makes reality testing your perceptions of current threats and situations a goddamn nightmare. If the threat is real often enough — if the racism is just ever present, if there’s always a man to remind you of your place — it’s damn difficult to just...catch your breath long enough to let your guard down enough to fucking process. Especially because with every interaction with a white person, a man, a police officer, you have a very reasonable expectation of bullshit, so you have to be on your guard even if that particular interaction turns out to not be terrible. It’s like being charged an insane rent on your nervous system every day. You never get ahead, or get to put anything towards repairs or maintenance, bc you’re always dealing with The Bullshit Happening Right Now Or That Might Happen At Any Moment.
It’s one of the reasons I get really twitchy when people make fun of safe spaces. They aren’t some goddamn luxury for delicate flowers. It’s a basic necessity of being human that marginalized groups are consistently denied, and it has real effects.
Eleventhing the call for a list of doctors who don’t fucking suck, btw. I know there are smaller lists out there for trans or lgbtq friendly doctors, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one for women or POC. Like, “we believe your pain and take it seriously” is a major fucking selling point, as far as I’m concerned.
corb, your doctor is the actual fucking worst. I want to put him on an island with the male gynecologist I had to see last week who kept making jokes about wanting a nurse around to protect his “virtue” in between cutting me off or dismissing literally every question I had about my medication, all before, you know, actually putting a speculum inside me.
It is not a nice island.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:16 AM on January 27, 2018 [25 favorites]
It’s really hard to drop defense mechanisms — which include freezing or dissociating, not speaking up, being invisible — when sometimes they are still the best option in actual real life situations. It makes reality testing your perceptions of current threats and situations a goddamn nightmare. If the threat is real often enough — if the racism is just ever present, if there’s always a man to remind you of your place — it’s damn difficult to just...catch your breath long enough to let your guard down enough to fucking process. Especially because with every interaction with a white person, a man, a police officer, you have a very reasonable expectation of bullshit, so you have to be on your guard even if that particular interaction turns out to not be terrible. It’s like being charged an insane rent on your nervous system every day. You never get ahead, or get to put anything towards repairs or maintenance, bc you’re always dealing with The Bullshit Happening Right Now Or That Might Happen At Any Moment.
It’s one of the reasons I get really twitchy when people make fun of safe spaces. They aren’t some goddamn luxury for delicate flowers. It’s a basic necessity of being human that marginalized groups are consistently denied, and it has real effects.
Eleventhing the call for a list of doctors who don’t fucking suck, btw. I know there are smaller lists out there for trans or lgbtq friendly doctors, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one for women or POC. Like, “we believe your pain and take it seriously” is a major fucking selling point, as far as I’m concerned.
corb, your doctor is the actual fucking worst. I want to put him on an island with the male gynecologist I had to see last week who kept making jokes about wanting a nurse around to protect his “virtue” in between cutting me off or dismissing literally every question I had about my medication, all before, you know, actually putting a speculum inside me.
It is not a nice island.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:16 AM on January 27, 2018 [25 favorites]
It's just SO difficult for me to cause a fuss when something isn't severely damaging me.
This. And when I think back on my career and my life choices, I realize that I have delivered myself the death of a thousand cuts. It’s so much easier to go along, to accept what I’m given (or not given, even if I’ve earned it).
About 20 years ago I was in a bad relationship. One reason this relationship was bad was that he was living off of my salary, as he almost never worked. I was resentful but couldn’t say anything because he was trying, wasn’t he? (!) One day (I guess he had gotten paid) we were in a shop full of leather jackets. He asked me to pick out one that I loved and then he bought it for me. For days I could not get over the experience of him having given me exactly what I wanted, right away, just as promised rather than having to explain to myself after the fact why it was OK that his [gift/attitude/behavior] was lacking and/or belated.
And as I write this, I realize that if I had actually been true to myself I would have asked for the cash he owed me instead.
posted by GrammarMoses at 12:08 PM on January 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
This. And when I think back on my career and my life choices, I realize that I have delivered myself the death of a thousand cuts. It’s so much easier to go along, to accept what I’m given (or not given, even if I’ve earned it).
About 20 years ago I was in a bad relationship. One reason this relationship was bad was that he was living off of my salary, as he almost never worked. I was resentful but couldn’t say anything because he was trying, wasn’t he? (!) One day (I guess he had gotten paid) we were in a shop full of leather jackets. He asked me to pick out one that I loved and then he bought it for me. For days I could not get over the experience of him having given me exactly what I wanted, right away, just as promised rather than having to explain to myself after the fact why it was OK that his [gift/attitude/behavior] was lacking and/or belated.
And as I write this, I realize that if I had actually been true to myself I would have asked for the cash he owed me instead.
posted by GrammarMoses at 12:08 PM on January 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
And now that I read the rest of the deeply thoughtful comments above, I also feel kinda sheepish about the triviality of my anecdote. If I seemed flip or glib to anyone, I apologize.
posted by GrammarMoses at 12:31 PM on January 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by GrammarMoses at 12:31 PM on January 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
you don't sound flip or glib to me. you sound like you get to have the feelings you have, and it's not---this is a bleedout of small cuts, not a single wound to an artery. or perhaps it's like the bleedout you might get from open sores caused by being allowed to wear only a dress of sandpaper, and then told to go about your everyday life.
I feel like my own comments aren't enough to share, too; I argue with myself about whether my anecdotes are "real" enough every time I post in a thread like this. but--to me, they are. so.
thank you for sharing, too.
posted by sciatrix at 1:27 PM on January 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
I feel like my own comments aren't enough to share, too; I argue with myself about whether my anecdotes are "real" enough every time I post in a thread like this. but--to me, they are. so.
thank you for sharing, too.
posted by sciatrix at 1:27 PM on January 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
What sciatrix said. I had exactly the same thoughts — is this enough? Is my pain/humiliation/thing I had to deal with today enough to bother other people with? Am I enough?
It’s part of the bullshit, I think. One of the ways it gets in our heads.
Thank you for sharing.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:00 PM on January 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
It’s part of the bullshit, I think. One of the ways it gets in our heads.
Thank you for sharing.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:00 PM on January 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
I argue with myself about whether my anecdotes are "real" enough
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What sciatrix said. I had exactly the same thoughts — is this enough? Is my pain/humiliation/thing I had to deal with today enough to bother other people with? Am I enough?
Yes! Yes, your hurt and humiliations are enough to entitle you to speak, to seek something different. Entitlement is a key to so much of this stuff. Generalising, women are socialised to consider and compare and prioritise their needs in relation to others', whereas men are socialised to have needs.
When someone occupies a space of entitlement, without even considering if they are entitled to that space, it makes it really difficult to vie for that space without causing conflict or disruption. Men see so many spaces of needs-fulfilment as theirs to occupy while women are socialised to see such spaces as something that others have an equal or greater claim to, or at best as a negotiable asset that can be shared through compromise. And thus we are hurt, a thousand paper cuts hurt, and every hurt adds to the past, foretells the future.
Well, fuck that for a joke. I'm staking a few claims for myself.
1. I am going to trust in my own sense of fairness and ethics. I am not going to be socially manipulated into implicitly acceding space to those who claim more entitlement, unless I genuinely and consciously think they are more deserving. I have decided that I know myself well enough to have confidence in my humanity, so I am going to up my sense of entitlement to certain spaces.
2. I am going to stop using the word 'just' to make my request or opinion smaller. No more trying to make myself smaller in size, deed or need. No more trying not to take up space.
3. I am going to start each day with a little mantra: "I heed my needs." I've always been a people pleaser, trained by early trauma to fawn, freeze or flee, rather than fight. But I'm over that now. I feel much safer in my own skin in no small part to Metafilter commentary and conversation. I trust myself enough to know that accusations of selfishness, inconsideration, bitchiness, hysteria or whatever are simply power plays, not objective observations. And I am going to be doubly aware that name-calling and threats are common parlance of the deserving deposed.
4. I am going to spend less time thinking about how my behaviours, concessions and agreements affect others, and more on how they affect me.
Anyone want to join me?
posted by Thella at 4:24 PM on January 27, 2018 [16 favorites]
-
What sciatrix said. I had exactly the same thoughts — is this enough? Is my pain/humiliation/thing I had to deal with today enough to bother other people with? Am I enough?
Yes! Yes, your hurt and humiliations are enough to entitle you to speak, to seek something different. Entitlement is a key to so much of this stuff. Generalising, women are socialised to consider and compare and prioritise their needs in relation to others', whereas men are socialised to have needs.
When someone occupies a space of entitlement, without even considering if they are entitled to that space, it makes it really difficult to vie for that space without causing conflict or disruption. Men see so many spaces of needs-fulfilment as theirs to occupy while women are socialised to see such spaces as something that others have an equal or greater claim to, or at best as a negotiable asset that can be shared through compromise. And thus we are hurt, a thousand paper cuts hurt, and every hurt adds to the past, foretells the future.
Well, fuck that for a joke. I'm staking a few claims for myself.
1. I am going to trust in my own sense of fairness and ethics. I am not going to be socially manipulated into implicitly acceding space to those who claim more entitlement, unless I genuinely and consciously think they are more deserving. I have decided that I know myself well enough to have confidence in my humanity, so I am going to up my sense of entitlement to certain spaces.
2. I am going to stop using the word 'just' to make my request or opinion smaller. No more trying to make myself smaller in size, deed or need. No more trying not to take up space.
3. I am going to start each day with a little mantra: "I heed my needs." I've always been a people pleaser, trained by early trauma to fawn, freeze or flee, rather than fight. But I'm over that now. I feel much safer in my own skin in no small part to Metafilter commentary and conversation. I trust myself enough to know that accusations of selfishness, inconsideration, bitchiness, hysteria or whatever are simply power plays, not objective observations. And I am going to be doubly aware that name-calling and threats are common parlance of the deserving deposed.
4. I am going to spend less time thinking about how my behaviours, concessions and agreements affect others, and more on how they affect me.
Anyone want to join me?
posted by Thella at 4:24 PM on January 27, 2018 [16 favorites]
Ah, well, Thella, I might as well. After--ironically--having my productivity shot all to hell by gutwrenching panic over my boss' ill-thought-out support group idea, I've composed an email to a female faculty member outside my lab whose judgement I trust asking for advice on how to handle the way he treats me and the way he handles the tension between me and the other student.
(With my best friend holding my hand and supporting me all the way, of course. It's easier to take up space when you have someone else in the thick of things to cheer you on. And he knows this person better than I do.)
We'll see how it goes. And I'm going to go into my meeting with my boss tomorrow, having been significantly less productive than I envisioned, and explain to him just how afraid I've been of this stupid fucking idea and how unsupportive his fucking group will actually be for me if he tells me I'm not proceeding to expectations. Because fuck me, it's true.
posted by sciatrix at 2:52 PM on January 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
(With my best friend holding my hand and supporting me all the way, of course. It's easier to take up space when you have someone else in the thick of things to cheer you on. And he knows this person better than I do.)
We'll see how it goes. And I'm going to go into my meeting with my boss tomorrow, having been significantly less productive than I envisioned, and explain to him just how afraid I've been of this stupid fucking idea and how unsupportive his fucking group will actually be for me if he tells me I'm not proceeding to expectations. Because fuck me, it's true.
posted by sciatrix at 2:52 PM on January 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
I was thinking about the sheer scale of variation of male sexual demands/activity/desire as expressed to me my entire life.
and there is a spectrum, a literal range of demand, once out of the teenage horny years, but we cannot divorce that need for sex from the acculturation around sex that happens in that crucial timeframe.
I work in the field of obesity and bariatric surgery and an odd congruence hit me as I tried to align my experience of encounters with extremely inappropriate males, through Aziz Ansari levels of 'you really want it i just have to convince you that you want what I need' to guys who really seemed to have no problem with shutting things down.
this will be controversial for anyone out there who thinks obesity is a problem of willpower, instead of a multifactorial combo of Genetic predisposition + obesogenic environment + poor education/knowledge + genuine variation in hunger and satiety hormones etc., etc., leading to a situation where even those of us with the best intent, willpower and education still could not appear to control weight gain.
so I thought of the huge range of those guys I dated/knew/had sex with and find there is a huge variation in the drive for sex. But unfortunately this patriarchal culture is the equivalent of the obesogenic environment, it is all about satisfying your urges no matter what the implications are. Unfortunately to tackle this, we would have to be more nuanced in how we view the complexity of the issue, and more importantly we would have to accept as a culture there is an issue that is way more complex than simple consent education would suggest. We almost need a more nuanced map that explains the Mike Pence/Al Franklin/Aziz Ansari/Trump/ Wynn/ Weinstein/........insert your awful guy here/ Silence of the lambs.......
clearly the current approaches aren't working and allow enough kick-back that the real abusers are being protected by the "can't I even flirt with a woman anymore???' brigade
posted by Wilder at 12:30 PM on January 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
and there is a spectrum, a literal range of demand, once out of the teenage horny years, but we cannot divorce that need for sex from the acculturation around sex that happens in that crucial timeframe.
I work in the field of obesity and bariatric surgery and an odd congruence hit me as I tried to align my experience of encounters with extremely inappropriate males, through Aziz Ansari levels of 'you really want it i just have to convince you that you want what I need' to guys who really seemed to have no problem with shutting things down.
this will be controversial for anyone out there who thinks obesity is a problem of willpower, instead of a multifactorial combo of Genetic predisposition + obesogenic environment + poor education/knowledge + genuine variation in hunger and satiety hormones etc., etc., leading to a situation where even those of us with the best intent, willpower and education still could not appear to control weight gain.
so I thought of the huge range of those guys I dated/knew/had sex with and find there is a huge variation in the drive for sex. But unfortunately this patriarchal culture is the equivalent of the obesogenic environment, it is all about satisfying your urges no matter what the implications are. Unfortunately to tackle this, we would have to be more nuanced in how we view the complexity of the issue, and more importantly we would have to accept as a culture there is an issue that is way more complex than simple consent education would suggest. We almost need a more nuanced map that explains the Mike Pence/Al Franklin/Aziz Ansari/Trump/ Wynn/ Weinstein/........insert your awful guy here/ Silence of the lambs.......
clearly the current approaches aren't working and allow enough kick-back that the real abusers are being protected by the "can't I even flirt with a woman anymore???' brigade
posted by Wilder at 12:30 PM on January 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Since we already have an open thread, I thought this would be a good place to post this link. Though maybe its deserving of its own thread.
This Is Why Uma Thurman Is Angry by Maureen Dowd [The New York Times]
This Is Why Uma Thurman Is Angry by Maureen Dowd [The New York Times]
“Yes, Uma Thurman is mad.posted by Fizz at 8:42 AM on February 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
She has been raped. She has been sexually assaulted. She has been mangled in hot steel. She has been betrayed and gaslighted by those she trusted.
And we’re not talking about her role as the blood-spattered bride in “Kill Bill.” We’re talking about a world that is just as cutthroat, amoral, vindictive and misogynistic as any Quentin Tarantino hellscape.
We’re talking about Hollywood, where even an avenging angel has a hard time getting respect, much less bloody satisfaction.
Playing foxy Mia Wallace in 1994’s “Pulp Fiction” and ferocious Beatrix Kiddo in “Kill Bill,” Volumes 1 (2003) and 2 (2004), Thurman was the lissome goddess in the creation myth of Harvey Weinstein and Quentin Tarantino. The Miramax troika was the ultimate in indie cool. A spellbound Tarantino often described his auteur-muse relationship with Thurman — who helped him conceive the idea of the bloody bride — as an Alfred Hitchcock-Ingrid Bergman legend. (With a foot fetish thrown in.) But beneath the glistening Oscar gold, there was a dark undercurrent that twisted the triangle.”
That piece is really interesting. Weinstein has a pattern of putting actresses in their place by adding or attempting to add gratuitous nude scenes for actresses who rocked the boat or putting them in physical peril like Tarantino did in Kill Bill. That directive could have come from Weinstein or could have come from Tarantino or both. Did they know they were displaying power to put Thurman in her place? Did they know of themselves that they were doing that.
It is so reminiscent of the stuff Geddart at Twistars has been said to have done repeatedly to gymnasts who raised issues about treatment in training or "medical" treatment from Nassar. He would make them train with an injury or he would create a hazardous environment or instruct coaches to let them fall or get them up on a bar and then step away so they would feel afraid.
And of course, all plausible deniability. You know it when you feel it, most of the time, that you're getting worked over. But then, maybe it was an accident? Maybe Tarantino wasn't just being a dick trying to put "his" actress in her place by demanding that she hit 40 mph in a dodgy car so her hair would blow right. Who knows, maybe his power play was about the stunt double who should have been driving in her place? And maybe Thurman could have put her foot down. They wouldn't have thrown her off the set and cancelled the movie but the relationship would have been damaged, no doubt. Tarantino said as much.
Class Action suit wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility against Weinstein and others. They won't win. There is no "proof." And damages are hard to quantify. Maybe if Weinstein hadn't poisoned the waters for some of his more angry actresses, they would have worked more? Or maybe their careers were faltering anyway? Who can tell these things? Such a mystery, the world of men.
posted by amanda at 10:58 AM on February 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
It is so reminiscent of the stuff Geddart at Twistars has been said to have done repeatedly to gymnasts who raised issues about treatment in training or "medical" treatment from Nassar. He would make them train with an injury or he would create a hazardous environment or instruct coaches to let them fall or get them up on a bar and then step away so they would feel afraid.
And of course, all plausible deniability. You know it when you feel it, most of the time, that you're getting worked over. But then, maybe it was an accident? Maybe Tarantino wasn't just being a dick trying to put "his" actress in her place by demanding that she hit 40 mph in a dodgy car so her hair would blow right. Who knows, maybe his power play was about the stunt double who should have been driving in her place? And maybe Thurman could have put her foot down. They wouldn't have thrown her off the set and cancelled the movie but the relationship would have been damaged, no doubt. Tarantino said as much.
Class Action suit wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility against Weinstein and others. They won't win. There is no "proof." And damages are hard to quantify. Maybe if Weinstein hadn't poisoned the waters for some of his more angry actresses, they would have worked more? Or maybe their careers were faltering anyway? Who can tell these things? Such a mystery, the world of men.
posted by amanda at 10:58 AM on February 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
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posted by sexyrobot at 1:38 PM on January 25, 2018 [9 favorites]