Soccer Football USA USA USA
February 1, 2018 9:26 AM Subscribe
The greatest football club in the world has a player featured in the New York Times. He is from the USA and has a few thoughts about the USMNT failing to qualify for the 2018 World Cup. (H/T 7Segment)
Over the course of the next hour, after some expletive-laden venting in the wake of a costly 1-0 home loss to Newcastle United, he invited questions on a number of subjects: Stoke’s increasingly dire predicament in the Premier League, his brush with political controversy last year and the challenges of life as an American abroad. Cameron also naturally ruminated on the United States’ ill-fated World Cup qualifying campaign, heading into a summer of unforeseen spectating.
Over the course of the next hour, after some expletive-laden venting in the wake of a costly 1-0 home loss to Newcastle United, he invited questions on a number of subjects: Stoke’s increasingly dire predicament in the Premier League, his brush with political controversy last year and the challenges of life as an American abroad. Cameron also naturally ruminated on the United States’ ill-fated World Cup qualifying campaign, heading into a summer of unforeseen spectating.
Clearly the single missing piece that would have put the USMNT over the top was an aging, mediocre center back who's also wishy-washy on whether the families of his teammates should be deported.
I've read a lot of criticism of US Soccer, the men's national team structure, and the coaching and development systems, and I don't think a single one was particularly put off by Cameron being dropped. Honestly, I'm probably ragging on him too much, because the problem is not with having him on the team so much as it's that there's no one clearly better or even just a younger replacement for him. The USMNT has a couple of really great, exciting young players, but we really need competent players to fill in the rest of the team. Obviously we're never going to be Brazil or Spain, but I think it's not incredibly unreasonable to have as a goal that the starting lineup would be playing regularly for at least a mid-table Premier League team. It doesn't say great things about our youth development or the state of the MLS that we're not particularly close to that.
posted by Copronymus at 10:17 AM on February 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
I've read a lot of criticism of US Soccer, the men's national team structure, and the coaching and development systems, and I don't think a single one was particularly put off by Cameron being dropped. Honestly, I'm probably ragging on him too much, because the problem is not with having him on the team so much as it's that there's no one clearly better or even just a younger replacement for him. The USMNT has a couple of really great, exciting young players, but we really need competent players to fill in the rest of the team. Obviously we're never going to be Brazil or Spain, but I think it's not incredibly unreasonable to have as a goal that the starting lineup would be playing regularly for at least a mid-table Premier League team. It doesn't say great things about our youth development or the state of the MLS that we're not particularly close to that.
posted by Copronymus at 10:17 AM on February 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
greatest football club in the world
Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:24 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:24 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think the next decade will show the results of multiple generations of American kids playing lots of youth soccer. Players like Pulisic, McKennie, and Sargent are just the leading edge of the wave.
What worries me is more outcomes like Jonathon Gonzalez and before him, Neven Subotic and Guiseppe Rossi, Americans who go play for other countries when they would've been longterm USMNT starters. US Soccer needs to be much more on top of that happening. Rossi maybe always was going to play for Italy but the other two would've been happy to play for USA.
posted by billsaysthis at 10:51 AM on February 1, 2018
What worries me is more outcomes like Jonathon Gonzalez and before him, Neven Subotic and Guiseppe Rossi, Americans who go play for other countries when they would've been longterm USMNT starters. US Soccer needs to be much more on top of that happening. Rossi maybe always was going to play for Italy but the other two would've been happy to play for USA.
posted by billsaysthis at 10:51 AM on February 1, 2018
Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!
A priori
posted by josher71 at 10:52 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
A priori
posted by josher71 at 10:52 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
At the great risk of derailing this thread, I must assert that the greatest football club in the world is The Celtic Football Club of Glasgow, Scotland. Come on you Bhoys in green!
posted by bwvol at 11:25 AM on February 1, 2018
posted by bwvol at 11:25 AM on February 1, 2018
the greatest football club in the world is The Celtic Football Club of Glasgow, Scotland.
As proven by their two matches against PSG this season?
posted by jaduncan at 11:39 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
As proven by their two matches against PSG this season?
posted by jaduncan at 11:39 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
As proven by their two matches against PSG this season?
touche
(a classic example of how financial doping is ruining the game.)
posted by bwvol at 11:42 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
touche
(a classic example of how financial doping is ruining the game.)
posted by bwvol at 11:42 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
So I guess we know what happens on a wet, whiny night in Stoke now.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:59 AM on February 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:59 AM on February 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
The USMNT has a couple of really great, exciting young players, but we really need competent players to fill in the rest of the team.
Americans who go play for other countries when they would've been longterm USMNT starters. US Soccer needs to be much more on top of that happening.
Thankfully, US Soccer decided to get rid of a nativist manager and got someone with experience with building up a nationwide scouting and youth developme... Oh, wait, that was the other way around.
posted by lmfsilva at 1:22 PM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Americans who go play for other countries when they would've been longterm USMNT starters. US Soccer needs to be much more on top of that happening.
Thankfully, US Soccer decided to get rid of a nativist manager and got someone with experience with building up a nationwide scouting and youth developme... Oh, wait, that was the other way around.
posted by lmfsilva at 1:22 PM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
The US men's team is not even in the running
posted by ivan ivanych samovar at 2:03 PM on February 1, 2018
posted by ivan ivanych samovar at 2:03 PM on February 1, 2018
greatest football club in the world
YES! And so recognized far too infrequently.
posted by jon574 at 2:13 PM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
YES! And so recognized far too infrequently.
posted by jon574 at 2:13 PM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
the greatest football club in the world is The Celtic Football Club of Glasgow, Scotland.
They couldn't even beat A German Team!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:42 PM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
They couldn't even beat A German Team!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:42 PM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
“Geoff started five games starting in November 2016 through October 2017. Our record was 1-3-1 — that plays a role.”
...
(Cameron did start five games for Arena in that window — four qualifiers and a friendly — but the Americans’ record was 2-1-2 in those games.)
I mean...come on. If you're going to pull that kind of bullshit at least throw in a "I think our record was" for plausible deniability.
posted by juv3nal at 3:32 PM on February 1, 2018
...
(Cameron did start five games for Arena in that window — four qualifiers and a friendly — but the Americans’ record was 2-1-2 in those games.)
I mean...come on. If you're going to pull that kind of bullshit at least throw in a "I think our record was" for plausible deniability.
posted by juv3nal at 3:32 PM on February 1, 2018
They couldn't even beat A German Team!
(Context.)
posted by hangashore at 10:13 PM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
(Context.)
posted by hangashore at 10:13 PM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Imma let you finish, but ynwa.
posted by persona au gratin at 12:14 AM on February 2, 2018
posted by persona au gratin at 12:14 AM on February 2, 2018
More seriously I haven’t a clue what to do about men’s soccer. Other than having our MNT players stay in Europe.
posted by persona au gratin at 12:16 AM on February 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by persona au gratin at 12:16 AM on February 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
What Must Change in U.S. Soccer
Geoff wrote this one.
posted by josher71 at 12:27 PM on February 14, 2018
Geoff wrote this one.
posted by josher71 at 12:27 PM on February 14, 2018
Why is it seen as a negative for America to “lose” a player who goes to play abroad? Brazilians don’t think this way when Neymar goes to Barcelona. The Dutch don’t think this way when their Ajax academy kids go to Chelsea or Bayern. Why don’t we go the other way entirely? U.S. Soccer should take out ads with pictures of all the players, past and present, who have made a huge impact on the world stage.
I'm going out and say that the timing and circumstances they move to Europe is a pretty big factor. It would be better to play in a second-tier european club (ie, UEFA League tier teams) with solid development coaches than on a cutthroat team where they'd be benched or left out (and no player improves looking from the sidelines or the stand) or loaned to some "development" team that is nothing more than a place to dump all the wonderkids that don't pan out until some other team picks them up.
He mentioned the Netherlands, but I recall an article where a local journalist partially blames the downfall of their national team in that - players are poached when they're 18 or 19 (or younger) because there's 10 or 20 teams for whom throwing 5-10 mil at a "promising player" is nothing and beats paying 5 times that 3 years later, and they're all competing for the same players. Then they get stuck in some development hell and the next time you heard of them it's on a Football Manager fanpage in a "where are they now - wonderkids from FM %CURYEAR%-5" article.
For instance, Renato Sanches was looking like the next big thing. He went to Bayern, got massive culture-shock, didn't play because he wasn't good enough, was loaned to Swansea and now when he's not injured or plain playing, he's passing to ad boards. He's young and has time to bounce back, but he never finished his development, and likely never will.
But he's right. The MLS is and entertaining league and all, but in Europe conditions are a notch above, and it's not an insult, like I doubt anyone in Europe would take personally if our finest basketball and hockey players moved to the NBA and NHL to become the best on the world*. If they have any say on the matter, however, maybe it's better to get their players on a team with more modest budgets that *must* squeeze the max out of their signings than the cream of the top-5 leagues that can treat them as low-risk, disposable investments.
* as a comparison: One of the best MLS players is Diego Valeri, who was barely a blip with us 10 years ago or so. Our best basketball player ever and absolute club legend (and most interesting man alive candidate) is Dale Dover, who I doubt anyone who wasn't watching Harvard basketball in the late 60s or has an encyclopedic knowledge of Boston Celtics draft picks remembers.
posted by lmfsilva at 2:37 PM on February 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm going out and say that the timing and circumstances they move to Europe is a pretty big factor. It would be better to play in a second-tier european club (ie, UEFA League tier teams) with solid development coaches than on a cutthroat team where they'd be benched or left out (and no player improves looking from the sidelines or the stand) or loaned to some "development" team that is nothing more than a place to dump all the wonderkids that don't pan out until some other team picks them up.
He mentioned the Netherlands, but I recall an article where a local journalist partially blames the downfall of their national team in that - players are poached when they're 18 or 19 (or younger) because there's 10 or 20 teams for whom throwing 5-10 mil at a "promising player" is nothing and beats paying 5 times that 3 years later, and they're all competing for the same players. Then they get stuck in some development hell and the next time you heard of them it's on a Football Manager fanpage in a "where are they now - wonderkids from FM %CURYEAR%-5" article.
For instance, Renato Sanches was looking like the next big thing. He went to Bayern, got massive culture-shock, didn't play because he wasn't good enough, was loaned to Swansea and now when he's not injured or plain playing, he's passing to ad boards. He's young and has time to bounce back, but he never finished his development, and likely never will.
But he's right. The MLS is and entertaining league and all, but in Europe conditions are a notch above, and it's not an insult, like I doubt anyone in Europe would take personally if our finest basketball and hockey players moved to the NBA and NHL to become the best on the world*. If they have any say on the matter, however, maybe it's better to get their players on a team with more modest budgets that *must* squeeze the max out of their signings than the cream of the top-5 leagues that can treat them as low-risk, disposable investments.
* as a comparison: One of the best MLS players is Diego Valeri, who was barely a blip with us 10 years ago or so. Our best basketball player ever and absolute club legend (and most interesting man alive candidate) is Dale Dover, who I doubt anyone who wasn't watching Harvard basketball in the late 60s or has an encyclopedic knowledge of Boston Celtics draft picks remembers.
posted by lmfsilva at 2:37 PM on February 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
n a team with more modest budgets that *must* squeeze the max out of their signings
I feel like this is addressed in playing for lower tier European teams. Your Bristol City's of the world don't have a ton of money to throw around the second tier of English football is no joke competitively.
Bradly Wright Phillips was a third tier striker in England and is considered a leading striker in MLS.
posted by josher71 at 11:38 AM on February 16, 2018
I feel like this is addressed in playing for lower tier European teams. Your Bristol City's of the world don't have a ton of money to throw around the second tier of English football is no joke competitively.
Bradly Wright Phillips was a third tier striker in England and is considered a leading striker in MLS.
posted by josher71 at 11:38 AM on February 16, 2018
We had Erik Palmer-Brown on our reserve squad team for half a season or so and played a substancial part in winning the 2nd division title. He was showing some promise but was reluctant to sign here (likely with some fault of our own), so when his contract with KC ended, Man City snatched him up to loan him immediately to Belgium where he's yet to play.
Ideally, he would have signed with us or directly with KV Kortrijk (or even Ajax and PSV, who were interested in him when his contract was up). Being in Manchester City means he's not going to displace anyone in a defense that cost over 200 million to build, and he's also not going to be a priority wherever he's loaned to.
posted by lmfsilva at 12:49 PM on February 16, 2018
Ideally, he would have signed with us or directly with KV Kortrijk (or even Ajax and PSV, who were interested in him when his contract was up). Being in Manchester City means he's not going to displace anyone in a defense that cost over 200 million to build, and he's also not going to be a priority wherever he's loaned to.
posted by lmfsilva at 12:49 PM on February 16, 2018
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posted by lmfsilva at 10:10 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]