Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
February 21, 2018 7:15 AM Subscribe
BORA HORZA GOBUCHUL. THERE IS DEATH HERE.
If completed, this will the first Culture book to be filmed and the fourth Banks novel after The Crow Road, Complicity, and Stonemouth.
If completed, this will the first Culture book to be filmed and the fourth Banks novel after The Crow Road, Complicity, and Stonemouth.
Wow. Phlebas in particular is unfilmable (and also awful, but mostly unfilmable).
posted by uberchet at 7:20 AM on February 21, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by uberchet at 7:20 AM on February 21, 2018 [10 favorites]
Somehow, thankfully, Consider Phlebas was enough of a success that Banks continued in the series and his publisher let him. It's still by a considerable margin the weakest Culture book, and not a good place to start a series, IMO.
posted by tclark at 7:22 AM on February 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by tclark at 7:22 AM on February 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
So you guys are saying I should read another Culture book? Because I read Consider Phlebas and it was definitely a thing and I didn't continue with them.
posted by graymouser at 7:25 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by graymouser at 7:25 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
What is a good place to start? Because I didn't make it all the way through Phlebas.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 7:25 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 7:25 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
I assume it will be whole series. I can see it breaking down into some nice action heavy episodes due to it effectively having quite an episodic basis. Bit bleak overall though for a ten episode run.
posted by biffa at 7:26 AM on February 21, 2018
posted by biffa at 7:26 AM on February 21, 2018
The Player of Games is the easiest place to start. Use of Weapons is probably the best book.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:26 AM on February 21, 2018 [31 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:26 AM on February 21, 2018 [31 favorites]
THIS WILL BE BRILLIANT AND I WILL BROKE NOT NEGATIVE COMMENTS
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:30 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:30 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
WUT. I have no idea how to feel about this, and there's no one I can talk to except y'all.
Phlebas isn't the best of the series, but if you didn't get anything out of it you probably won't like the others either. Banks had a particular voice.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:32 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Phlebas isn't the best of the series, but if you didn't get anything out of it you probably won't like the others either. Banks had a particular voice.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:32 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
THIS WILL BE BRILLIANT AND I WILL BROKE NOT NEGATIVE COMMENTS
You must not hope. Hope is the joykiller that brings total obliteration.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:32 AM on February 21, 2018 [17 favorites]
You must not hope. Hope is the joykiller that brings total obliteration.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:32 AM on February 21, 2018 [17 favorites]
Player of Games is generally regarded among people I've talked to as a better place to start the series, and as with GCU Sweet and Full of Grace says, Use of Weapons is considered one of the best. My personal favorite is Excession, but that should probably not be a first book, as more context of the Culture would help the enjoyment a ton.
posted by tclark at 7:33 AM on February 21, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by tclark at 7:33 AM on February 21, 2018 [13 favorites]
You must not hope. Hope is the joykiller that brings total obliteration.
It is by will alone I set my mind to watch this...
posted by lumensimus at 7:33 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
It is by will alone I set my mind to watch this...
posted by lumensimus at 7:33 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
Seconding most of the recommendations in the comments -- Player of Games was my first, and I really dug it. Excessions was a hoot, and especially great if you're interested in ship culture within the Culture. Step lightly around Inversions, however, an attempt by Banks to create a "Culture book that wasn't". I stalled out more than halfway through, waiting for any drop of Cultureness and slogging through intentionally opaque epistolary chapters.
posted by lumensimus at 7:38 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by lumensimus at 7:38 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
I note Horza hasn't spotted this thread yet.
posted by biffa at 7:40 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by biffa at 7:40 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
Summarizing my response elsewhere:
hat book is rough as hell, too. Also the fave of people with dumb “actually the culture is bad” theories. The bit in the command complex is one of my favorite bits of Banks, and mostly makes the rest worthwhile, but so much of it is random bits like the cannibal island, unnecessary but extremely cool hovercraft fight, extremely cool spaceship chase through a spaceship through a spaceship, etc. I get the impression that he didn’t know he was going to be writing more SF at the time so just jammed in every cool idea he had in random order - what’s amazing is he then went on to have more and better cool ideas and put them in novels that actually made proper use of them.
So an odd choice, though maybe if they do a bot of a remix they can pull it off. Expanse style pulls from later in the series might help.
(The life of Diziet Sma is how I’d do it. Might mean making a few characters who are near as dammit Diziet Sma or Cheradenine Zakalwe actually into them, but not much harm there.)
posted by Artw at 7:40 AM on February 21, 2018 [15 favorites]
hat book is rough as hell, too. Also the fave of people with dumb “actually the culture is bad” theories. The bit in the command complex is one of my favorite bits of Banks, and mostly makes the rest worthwhile, but so much of it is random bits like the cannibal island, unnecessary but extremely cool hovercraft fight, extremely cool spaceship chase through a spaceship through a spaceship, etc. I get the impression that he didn’t know he was going to be writing more SF at the time so just jammed in every cool idea he had in random order - what’s amazing is he then went on to have more and better cool ideas and put them in novels that actually made proper use of them.
So an odd choice, though maybe if they do a bot of a remix they can pull it off. Expanse style pulls from later in the series might help.
(The life of Diziet Sma is how I’d do it. Might mean making a few characters who are near as dammit Diziet Sma or Cheradenine Zakalwe actually into them, but not much harm there.)
posted by Artw at 7:40 AM on February 21, 2018 [15 favorites]
Iain M Banks's drawings of the Culture universe to be published in 2019
Due to be published in 2019 by Orbit, the collection of Culture drawings, some annotated by the author, will be brought together by Banks’s estate and his friend and fellow science fiction author Ken MacLeod. Along with commentary from MacLeod, the book will contain Banks’s own notes on the Culture, its history, language, technology, philosophy and values.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:40 AM on February 21, 2018 [17 favorites]
Due to be published in 2019 by Orbit, the collection of Culture drawings, some annotated by the author, will be brought together by Banks’s estate and his friend and fellow science fiction author Ken MacLeod. Along with commentary from MacLeod, the book will contain Banks’s own notes on the Culture, its history, language, technology, philosophy and values.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:40 AM on February 21, 2018 [17 favorites]
Not my favorite Culture book either,* but I think it’d be a fine one to film. Train tracks are great for movies & storytelling: The story is hurtling this way, inexorably & dangerously, toward something happening over here.
*(Takes a deep breath and starts putting recommendations & caveats in order, then remembers to point to several recent discussions hereabouts of where and whether to start reading the Culture books: on the blue, on the gray.)
posted by miles per flower at 7:40 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
*(Takes a deep breath and starts putting recommendations & caveats in order, then remembers to point to several recent discussions hereabouts of where and whether to start reading the Culture books: on the blue, on the gray.)
posted by miles per flower at 7:40 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Huh. Well, that's a thing.
I didn't hate Consider Pheblas but I always thought Player of Games was a weird choice to be recommending as people's first reads. I mean, its premise is hilarious: the Culture sends an operative....to play video games?
Side note: Check out the scam tweet right below that from "@JefflBezos" (note the 'l').
posted by quaking fajita at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
I didn't hate Consider Pheblas but I always thought Player of Games was a weird choice to be recommending as people's first reads. I mean, its premise is hilarious: the Culture sends an operative....to play video games?
Side note: Check out the scam tweet right below that from "@JefflBezos" (note the 'l').
posted by quaking fajita at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Phlebas isn't the best of the series, but if you didn't get anything out of it you probably won't like the others either. Banks had a particular voice.
Read it, didn't particularly care for it, didn't read any for years then read Use of Weapons and devoured the lot. Went back to Phlebas and still didn't think that much of it, but came back to my conclusion that the command complex bit is brilliant.
(I am highly bribable by putting atomic powered trains in your work)
posted by Artw at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
Read it, didn't particularly care for it, didn't read any for years then read Use of Weapons and devoured the lot. Went back to Phlebas and still didn't think that much of it, but came back to my conclusion that the command complex bit is brilliant.
(I am highly bribable by putting atomic powered trains in your work)
posted by Artw at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
the Culture sends an operative....to play video games?
Civ: The Boardgame.
posted by Artw at 7:43 AM on February 21, 2018 [9 favorites]
Civ: The Boardgame.
posted by Artw at 7:43 AM on February 21, 2018 [9 favorites]
I didn't mind Consider Phlebas, it's a fine little pulp adventure.
Reading the above comments, it's interesting that I think that the stuff in the complex at the end is great but kinda ruined by the incredibly oversold impending train crash that just drags on forever.
posted by fleacircus at 7:48 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
Reading the above comments, it's interesting that I think that the stuff in the complex at the end is great but kinda ruined by the incredibly oversold impending train crash that just drags on forever.
posted by fleacircus at 7:48 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
I like Phlebas a lot, except for the cannibal bit. If that section is included in the adaptation, it will so dominate the rest of the story that people will think of the whole thing as “that disgusting cannibal freak show”.
posted by mr_roboto at 7:50 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 7:50 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
My personal favorite is Excession, but that should probably not be a first book, as more context of the Culture would help the enjoyment a ton.
Talk about unfilmable.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:52 AM on February 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
Talk about unfilmable.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:52 AM on February 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
Talk about unfilmable.
Oh man, it would take a team of certifiable cinematic genius to film Excession and do it justice...
posted by tclark at 7:54 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
Oh man, it would take a team of certifiable cinematic genius to film Excession and do it justice...
posted by tclark at 7:54 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
I started with and quite enjoyed Consider Phlebas, but will admit I'm often an... outlier, when it comes to such matters.
The Culture books are a series that I love and that also I never wanted to see adapted to film, and when I read this tweet and saw this was happening, my reaction was basically a looped GIF of Evil Bezos laughing at the end of that Bloomberg American Mall game and that mental loop hasn't stopped yet? I have Trepidations.
posted by halation at 7:54 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
The Culture books are a series that I love and that also I never wanted to see adapted to film, and when I read this tweet and saw this was happening, my reaction was basically a looped GIF of Evil Bezos laughing at the end of that Bloomberg American Mall game and that mental loop hasn't stopped yet? I have Trepidations.
posted by halation at 7:54 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Talk about unfilmable.
Considering how much of it takes place in a Mind "chatroom", it might work as, like, a Twine presentation or game.
posted by lumensimus at 7:56 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Considering how much of it takes place in a Mind "chatroom", it might work as, like, a Twine presentation or game.
posted by lumensimus at 7:56 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
"Cautiously Optimistic for the TV Adaptation" would be a good Culture Ship name.
(I guess I should probably read the novels at some point.)
posted by tobascodagama at 7:56 AM on February 21, 2018 [30 favorites]
(I guess I should probably read the novels at some point.)
posted by tobascodagama at 7:56 AM on February 21, 2018 [30 favorites]
So would "Worked Better in the Novel".
posted by tobascodagama at 7:57 AM on February 21, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 7:57 AM on February 21, 2018 [16 favorites]
Tangentially: What's with the lookalike "@JeffIBezos" account offering free bitcoins to everybody who sends him one?
posted by ardgedee at 7:59 AM on February 21, 2018
posted by ardgedee at 7:59 AM on February 21, 2018
Yeah, I'm trying to decide if Banks' voice is what's making Phlebas hard to read or if it's just that the story isn't grabbing me. I mean, I've read all kinds of bad science fiction, I can usually trudge my way through anything and yet I've struggled to get past the ship city segment at least 3 times now. Artw's comment sort of nails it though - it feels a lot like it would've done well as a pulp serial, just without the framing.
posted by Kyol at 8:00 AM on February 21, 2018
posted by Kyol at 8:00 AM on February 21, 2018
I worry about how the various different species will be depicted. The Idirans especially. I really hope they don't go with a Besson-esque style.
posted by dazed_one at 8:00 AM on February 21, 2018
posted by dazed_one at 8:00 AM on February 21, 2018
Tangentially: What's with the lookalike "@JeffIBezos" account offering free bitcoins to everybody who sends him one?
It's a blatant scam.
posted by dazed_one at 8:01 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's a blatant scam.
posted by dazed_one at 8:01 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
I like Phlebas a lot, except for the cannibal bit.
I read the first books pretty quickly, and Horza gets trapped in gross situations twice; then when Zakalwe also got trapped in a shit puddle I started to wonder about Banks' kinks.
posted by fleacircus at 8:02 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
I read the first books pretty quickly, and Horza gets trapped in gross situations twice; then when Zakalwe also got trapped in a shit puddle I started to wonder about Banks' kinks.
posted by fleacircus at 8:02 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
What's with the lookalike "@JeffIBezos" account offering free bitcoins to everybody who sends him one?
pyramid scam meets tulip delusion: the internet is truly a wonderland
posted by halation at 8:02 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
pyramid scam meets tulip delusion: the internet is truly a wonderland
posted by halation at 8:02 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
> It's a blatant scam.
Yes, that's obvious. I'm wondering whether this genre of tweet hijacking has become a common thing. And also wondering whether the scam is blatant enough for the bitcoin aficionados.
posted by ardgedee at 8:03 AM on February 21, 2018
Yes, that's obvious. I'm wondering whether this genre of tweet hijacking has become a common thing. And also wondering whether the scam is blatant enough for the bitcoin aficionados.
posted by ardgedee at 8:03 AM on February 21, 2018
My trepidation for this actually has me thinking about how the Culture books have these weird elements that make adaptations to all kinds of different media difficult. Film and TV are toughest, I think, because of how hard it would be to convey any conversation between Minds without resorting to something like a super-cheesy voiceover (although I don't remember there being a ton of Mind-Mind convos in CP). On the other hand, comics adaptations of culture books would be something else. Stop a second and picture what a Moebius-drawn Surface Detail would look like.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 8:03 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by the phlegmatic king at 8:03 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
"I mean, its premise is hilarious: the Culture sends an operative....to play video games?"
The "game" played in the Empire of Azad, called "Azad", is a series of complicated games played with physical objects, sometimes card games, sometimes large areas with interacting objects. None of this is computerized or a "video game".
"Azad" has numerous meanings, but a close approximation is "system". This civilization has come to believe that intelligence is best illustrated by tactical and strategic prowess as exemplified by the game Azad, and it organizes its society around that principle.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:05 AM on February 21, 2018 [14 favorites]
The "game" played in the Empire of Azad, called "Azad", is a series of complicated games played with physical objects, sometimes card games, sometimes large areas with interacting objects. None of this is computerized or a "video game".
"Azad" has numerous meanings, but a close approximation is "system". This civilization has come to believe that intelligence is best illustrated by tactical and strategic prowess as exemplified by the game Azad, and it organizes its society around that principle.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:05 AM on February 21, 2018 [14 favorites]
What a fucking insane idea.
You could film this, but major changes will have to be made.
Also, this book is such a fucking slog of awful things happening to awful people. Why are they not skipping to a later book?
posted by selfnoise at 8:05 AM on February 21, 2018
You could film this, but major changes will have to be made.
Also, this book is such a fucking slog of awful things happening to awful people. Why are they not skipping to a later book?
posted by selfnoise at 8:05 AM on February 21, 2018
I wish they'd have optioned Excession. I actually think it's much more adaptable to a screenplay. (The Minds' environment doesn't have to be all that complicated a depiction.) The Affronter scenes with Genar-Hofoen would be worth the price of admission all on their own.
I liked Consider Phlebas a lot, but it's going to be hard to film. Horza is a rich character, but he's an anti-hero and I think something will be lost when they try to translate him to screen. If they skip some sections of the book it might be better. (Just about everything on the Vavtch Orbital.)
mr_roboto: I like Phlebas a lot, except for the cannibal bit. If that section is included in the adaptation, it will so dominate the rest of the story that people will think of the whole thing as “that disgusting cannibal freak show”.
Ugh. Yes.
lumensimus:Step lightly around Inversions, however, an attempt by Banks to create a "Culture book that wasn't". I stalled out more than halfway through, waiting for any drop of Cultureness and slogging through intentionally opaque epistolary chapters.
Inversions is the book to read after you've read most if not all of the Culture books. But it needs to be read twice for full understanding. So you can catch the bits you missed the first time.
posted by zarq at 8:06 AM on February 21, 2018
I liked Consider Phlebas a lot, but it's going to be hard to film. Horza is a rich character, but he's an anti-hero and I think something will be lost when they try to translate him to screen. If they skip some sections of the book it might be better. (Just about everything on the Vavtch Orbital.)
mr_roboto: I like Phlebas a lot, except for the cannibal bit. If that section is included in the adaptation, it will so dominate the rest of the story that people will think of the whole thing as “that disgusting cannibal freak show”.
Ugh. Yes.
lumensimus:Step lightly around Inversions, however, an attempt by Banks to create a "Culture book that wasn't". I stalled out more than halfway through, waiting for any drop of Cultureness and slogging through intentionally opaque epistolary chapters.
Inversions is the book to read after you've read most if not all of the Culture books. But it needs to be read twice for full understanding. So you can catch the bits you missed the first time.
posted by zarq at 8:06 AM on February 21, 2018
Inversions is the book to read after you've read most if not all of the Culture books. But it needs to be read twice for full understanding. So you can catch the bits you missed the first time.
I see, zarq -- I'll keep that in mind! I also had trouble with the CamelCase character names -- I swear I read somewhere that Banks simply plugged in random syllables to generate names, which worked better for me in planet-hopping, full-effect Culture novels than it did in Inversions.
posted by lumensimus at 8:10 AM on February 21, 2018
I see, zarq -- I'll keep that in mind! I also had trouble with the CamelCase character names -- I swear I read somewhere that Banks simply plugged in random syllables to generate names, which worked better for me in planet-hopping, full-effect Culture novels than it did in Inversions.
posted by lumensimus at 8:10 AM on February 21, 2018
The life of Diziet Sma is how I’d do it.
I've got some great stories about Dizzy. Call me（・д・）｝
posted by Skaffen-Amtiskaw at 8:11 AM on February 21, 2018 [29 favorites]
I've got some great stories about Dizzy. Call me（・д・）｝
posted by Skaffen-Amtiskaw at 8:11 AM on February 21, 2018 [29 favorites]
I liked Utopia, Dennis Kelly seems like a decent choice.
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:12 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:12 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
"I started with and quite enjoyed Consider Phlebas, but will admit I'm often an... outlier, when it comes to such matters."
The first Banks book I read was Inversions and I liked it a lot. The second was Consider Phlebas, which I also liked. I also read Against a Dark Background, ostensibly not a Culture book, and it may be my favorite after Use of Weapons.
I love some of K. J. Parker's books, such as The Hammer and Sharps and, really, all these books I've mentioned are similar in tone and plot construction. It's probably why I liked Inversions so much.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:15 AM on February 21, 2018
The first Banks book I read was Inversions and I liked it a lot. The second was Consider Phlebas, which I also liked. I also read Against a Dark Background, ostensibly not a Culture book, and it may be my favorite after Use of Weapons.
I love some of K. J. Parker's books, such as The Hammer and Sharps and, really, all these books I've mentioned are similar in tone and plot construction. It's probably why I liked Inversions so much.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:15 AM on February 21, 2018
Aside: the top reply to the linked tweet is a bitcoin scam by someone impersonating Jeff Bezos. The scammer should be reported, but I don't twitter so I don't know how to report bad guys there.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:18 AM on February 21, 2018
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:18 AM on February 21, 2018
Amazon TV is a mess right now. Regardless of the difficulty of adapting these books, I’m not sure anyone there has the ability to shepherd this through the development process and into something not only producible, but also good.
posted by buzzkillington at 8:18 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by buzzkillington at 8:18 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
I literally re-read CP yesterday. So that's weird.
It was my first Culture book, back when there were no others (a lucky remainder table find), and I still remember what a breath of fresh air it was at that time. Nobody else was doing such over-the-top space opera back then—I think you'd have to go back to Nova to find anything like it. Later books are certainly tidier, and arguably better, but CP will always be my favorite or close to it.
But sure, lose the Eaters, that would be fine.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 8:18 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
It was my first Culture book, back when there were no others (a lucky remainder table find), and I still remember what a breath of fresh air it was at that time. Nobody else was doing such over-the-top space opera back then—I think you'd have to go back to Nova to find anything like it. Later books are certainly tidier, and arguably better, but CP will always be my favorite or close to it.
But sure, lose the Eaters, that would be fine.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 8:18 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
the more i think about this the more unsettled i get
is this some elaborate billionaire's version of Damage where bezos sees an opportunity intentionally mess it up and troll musk (who is clearly a fan)
does he just want to turn people off a series whose catchphrases include 'money is a sign of poverty'
posted by halation at 8:25 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
is this some elaborate billionaire's version of Damage where bezos sees an opportunity intentionally mess it up and troll musk (who is clearly a fan)
does he just want to turn people off a series whose catchphrases include 'money is a sign of poverty'
posted by halation at 8:25 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
I guess you're talking about the early aughts, so it may be true there were no other "over-the-top space operas" then. But that expression immediately calls to my mind Peter F. Hamilton's late nineties The Night's Dawn Trilogy, which goes over the top, down the back and around and then over the top all over again.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:26 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:26 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
I dunno about this. I'm maybe coming around to the idea that picking this novel could be smart? Like, Horza's a strong character in a messy novel, so maybe the necessary cleaning up and simplifying to make a TV series will fuck things up less than if they'd dived straight into Use of Weapons. That seems like it could also be less irritating to fans of the books too.
OTOH I sobbed like a child when Banks died, so the books feel sacred (is that the word? Maybe that's not the word) to me. An Amazon teevee show isn't going to.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:26 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
OTOH I sobbed like a child when Banks died, so the books feel sacred (is that the word? Maybe that's not the word) to me. An Amazon teevee show isn't going to.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:26 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
BORA HORZA GOBUCHUL
Doo-dah, doo-dah.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 8:32 AM on February 21, 2018 [23 favorites]
Doo-dah, doo-dah.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 8:32 AM on February 21, 2018 [23 favorites]
Considering how much of it takes place in a Mind "chatroom"
I like to think Minds lounge around in the lobbies to Happy Fun Space as personal avatars that could have as many visual jokes as the names. Glitch, but by and for hyperbeings. this could be eminently film-able (and would reflect the fact that we don't know who all of these entities are when we meet them). I just hope they don't do some lame-ass "cyber" or "texting" interface.
posted by bonehead at 8:34 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
I like to think Minds lounge around in the lobbies to Happy Fun Space as personal avatars that could have as many visual jokes as the names. Glitch, but by and for hyperbeings. this could be eminently film-able (and would reflect the fact that we don't know who all of these entities are when we meet them). I just hope they don't do some lame-ass "cyber" or "texting" interface.
posted by bonehead at 8:34 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
I guess you're talking about the early aughts
Consider Phlebas was published in 1987.
But that expression immediately calls to my mind Peter F. Hamilton's late nineties The Night's Dawn Trilogy, which goes over the top, down the back and around and then over the top all over again.
Well, yes.
Consider Phlebas was published in 1987.
But that expression immediately calls to my mind Peter F. Hamilton's late nineties The Night's Dawn Trilogy, which goes over the top, down the back and around and then over the top all over again.
Well, yes.
In their anthology The Space Opera Renaissance, David G. Hartwell and Kathryn Cramer note that while Banks wasn’t as popular in the United States, his real success with space opera spurred on others, creating a new movement of British science fiction authors: “Banks’s massive success in the U.K. provided a primary model to British SF writers for commercial and artistic success, specifically through space opera at the start of the 1990s.”posted by doubtfulpalace at 8:35 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
This is one of the potentially awesome advantages of having Hulu, Amazon and Netflix generating well-bankrolled, original content from the deep bench of great science fiction that has been written over the past 80 years.
This is one of the potentially terrible disadvantages of having Hulu, Amazon and Netflix generating well-bankrolled, original content from the deep bench of great science fiction that has been written over the past 80 years.
posted by darkstar at 8:35 AM on February 21, 2018 [9 favorites]
This is one of the potentially terrible disadvantages of having Hulu, Amazon and Netflix generating well-bankrolled, original content from the deep bench of great science fiction that has been written over the past 80 years.
posted by darkstar at 8:35 AM on February 21, 2018 [9 favorites]
What? Of all of the Culture books, Consider Phelbas as a film? Are we quite sure one of the Minds isn't having a go with us?
(For people thinking about where to start with the Culture books, if you've bounced off Phelbas - The Player of Games is a much easier entry point; Use of Weapons is also good, but I've known people to find it offputting for other reasons; Excession, Matter and The Hydrogen Sonata are perhaps my favorites, but I don't think they would be wonderful first introductions to the Culture).
posted by nubs at 8:39 AM on February 21, 2018
(For people thinking about where to start with the Culture books, if you've bounced off Phelbas - The Player of Games is a much easier entry point; Use of Weapons is also good, but I've known people to find it offputting for other reasons; Excession, Matter and The Hydrogen Sonata are perhaps my favorites, but I don't think they would be wonderful first introductions to the Culture).
posted by nubs at 8:39 AM on February 21, 2018
The first reply to this tweet, at the moment, is from one JefflBezos, with an identical icon to that of JeffBezos: I'm giving awaу 2,000 BTC to my followers! To idеntifу уour аddrеss, just sеnd 0.025 - 1 BTC to the address bеlow and gеt 0.25 - 10 BTC back to the addrеss you usеd for the transaсtion. I wonder if they’re getting any takers?
I wonder how much of the “propaganda for Luxury Fully Automated Gay Space Anarchy” aspect of the Culture will remain in the show.
posted by egypturnash at 8:41 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
I wonder how much of the “propaganda for Luxury Fully Automated Gay Space Anarchy” aspect of the Culture will remain in the show.
posted by egypturnash at 8:41 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
I guess you're talking about the early aughts, so it may be true there were no other "over-the-top space operas" then. But that expression immediately calls to my mind Peter F. Hamilton's late nineties The Night's Dawn Trilogy, which goes over the top, down the back and around and then over the top all over again.
Off the top of my head:
2000's
Alastair Reynolds' Revelation Space series
Dan Simmons' Olympos books
Vernor Vinge's Zones of Thought series (spanned 1992-2011)
1980's-1990's
David Brin's Uplift Series
Dan Simmons' Hyperion / Endymion Series
posted by zarq at 8:43 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Off the top of my head:
2000's
Alastair Reynolds' Revelation Space series
Dan Simmons' Olympos books
Vernor Vinge's Zones of Thought series (spanned 1992-2011)
1980's-1990's
David Brin's Uplift Series
Dan Simmons' Hyperion / Endymion Series
posted by zarq at 8:43 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't know what the CP haters' problem is. Consider Phlebasis obviously, patently, and gloriously a pisstake on traditional SF tropes, particularly the scrappy ragtag band of mercenaries. The Han Solo/Mal Reynolds is a shitbird, nowhere near as smart or canny as he thinks he is and a bit in love with his own self-image, and half of the stereotypically varied crew dies on what should be a bog-standard dungeon crawl. I loved it. And the cannibal island thing is very easily removable.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:43 AM on February 21, 2018 [24 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:43 AM on February 21, 2018 [24 favorites]
This is of course Bezos softening us up for everything being done by drones.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:44 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:44 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
In 1987 we were all cool cyberpunk kids.
posted by Artw at 8:45 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:45 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is of course Bezos softening us up for everything being done by drones.
He already has everything done by drones. Or, as we might call them, "poor people".
posted by Grangousier at 8:49 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
He already has everything done by drones. Or, as we might call them, "poor people".
posted by Grangousier at 8:49 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Tangentially: What's with the lookalike "@JeffIBezos" account offering free bitcoins to everybody who sends him one?
The EVE Online "double your isk!" scam bled rather quickly into cryptocurrencies.
It actually works too, if the number and tenacity of the scammers in the game is any indication.
posted by Slackermagee at 8:50 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
The EVE Online "double your isk!" scam bled rather quickly into cryptocurrencies.
It actually works too, if the number and tenacity of the scammers in the game is any indication.
posted by Slackermagee at 8:50 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
"Consider Phlebas was published in 1987."
Sorry, I misread your comment as if you were someone in the US who discovered Banks while most of his books were out of print. Seems like that's when a bunch of people first discovered him so I jumped to the wrong conclusion.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:52 AM on February 21, 2018
Sorry, I misread your comment as if you were someone in the US who discovered Banks while most of his books were out of print. Seems like that's when a bunch of people first discovered him so I jumped to the wrong conclusion.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:52 AM on February 21, 2018
The "game" played in the Empire of Azad, called "Azad", is a series of complicated games played with physical objects, sometimes card games, sometimes large areas with interacting objects. None of this is computerized or a "video game".
"Azad" has numerous meanings, but a close approximation is "system". This civilization has come to believe that intelligence is best illustrated by tactical and strategic prowess as exemplified by the game Azad, and it organizes its society around that principle.
It's Hesse's Glass Bead Game, basically.
Which was itself inspired by Go.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:52 AM on February 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
"Azad" has numerous meanings, but a close approximation is "system". This civilization has come to believe that intelligence is best illustrated by tactical and strategic prowess as exemplified by the game Azad, and it organizes its society around that principle.
It's Hesse's Glass Bead Game, basically.
Which was itself inspired by Go.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:52 AM on February 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
If we're doing rankings, I feel like "Against a Dark Background" is better suited for TV than any of the Culture novels.
posted by Jart at 8:52 AM on February 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Jart at 8:52 AM on February 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
Also, adapting the lengthy email sections in Excession is easy. Just have a bunch of cartoon versions of the ships/orbitals/etc the Minds are inhabiting hanging out in a chat arena of some kind. Preferably with big goofy cartoon faces pasted on top of them. You’re not gonna be using all the dialogue verbatim anyway, there’s no need to meticulously preserve the precise format of the exchanges.
Or have the Minds’ favorite avatars in the chat, let it be a total Second Life sort of thing with name and affiliation hovering over their heads. Whatever.
posted by egypturnash at 8:54 AM on February 21, 2018
Or have the Minds’ favorite avatars in the chat, let it be a total Second Life sort of thing with name and affiliation hovering over their heads. Whatever.
posted by egypturnash at 8:54 AM on February 21, 2018
It would be remiss of me not to comment, but Player of Games is probably the best place to start; and Use of Weapons is IMO, unsurprisingly, the strongest.
Given the quality of the various current crop of Netflix and Amazon original series, I put myself in the cautiously optimistic camp. I have no idea how they are going to make this a believable film; and to fight against my preconceived notions of how the Culture universe looks. Though Altered Carbon has done remarkably well on that count.
Tangentially, I find it amusing the top comment I saw on Bezos's tweet was someone impersonating him scamming for BTC. <-- Beaten to the punch it seems.
posted by diziet at 8:54 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Given the quality of the various current crop of Netflix and Amazon original series, I put myself in the cautiously optimistic camp. I have no idea how they are going to make this a believable film; and to fight against my preconceived notions of how the Culture universe looks. Though Altered Carbon has done remarkably well on that count.
Tangentially, I find it amusing the top comment I saw on Bezos's tweet was someone impersonating him scamming for BTC. <-- Beaten to the punch it seems.
posted by diziet at 8:54 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Speaking of which, I don't even like military SF much, but I'd definitely welcome a large budget, no holds barred adaptation of the Night's Dawn Trilogy. Just imagine how many loving close ups of smooth carbon fiber spheres containing pocket nuclear weapons they could fit into a three-season TV series.
Just get someone gleefully over the top to adapt it. I'm thinking Taika Waititi would be great for it, but I could also go for Baz Luhrmann, a young Robert Rodriguez, or someone like Peter Jackson circa Braindead/Dead Alive. Luc Besson could also work, he's sufficiently extra, but the aesthetic doesn't match, it'd be all French instead of Hoo-ha AMERICAN. Maybe just bite the bullet and hire Michael Bay.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:55 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Just get someone gleefully over the top to adapt it. I'm thinking Taika Waititi would be great for it, but I could also go for Baz Luhrmann, a young Robert Rodriguez, or someone like Peter Jackson circa Braindead/Dead Alive. Luc Besson could also work, he's sufficiently extra, but the aesthetic doesn't match, it'd be all French instead of Hoo-ha AMERICAN. Maybe just bite the bullet and hire Michael Bay.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:55 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
It would be remiss of me not to comment, but Player of Games is probably the best place to start; and Use of Weapons is IMO, unsurprisingly, the strongest.
With the caveat that you should probably read the ending sitting down
...on a sofa.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:56 AM on February 21, 2018 [18 favorites]
With the caveat that you should probably read the ending sitting down
...on a sofa.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:56 AM on February 21, 2018 [18 favorites]
“The Jinmoti of Bozlen Two kill the hereditary ritual assassins of the new Yearking's immediate family by drowning them in the tears of the Continental Empathaur in its Sadness Season.”
posted by zarq at 8:58 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by zarq at 8:58 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
David Brin's Uplift Series
This one, at least, was before CP. But it's the opposite of over-the-top. It's deliberately and completely traditional.
I forgot about Barrington J. Bayley, though.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 8:59 AM on February 21, 2018
This one, at least, was before CP. But it's the opposite of over-the-top. It's deliberately and completely traditional.
I forgot about Barrington J. Bayley, though.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 8:59 AM on February 21, 2018
"Off the top of my head:"
There was a fair amount of space opera back then (especially compared to now), but I've read all the books you mentioned and none of them are as "over the top" as those Hamilton books. Seriously, those books were turned up to 1111
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:00 AM on February 21, 2018
There was a fair amount of space opera back then (especially compared to now), but I've read all the books you mentioned and none of them are as "over the top" as those Hamilton books. Seriously, those books were turned up to 1111
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:00 AM on February 21, 2018
Mmphm. My primary concern with this is that it's going to be all too easy to turn Phlebas into just another bug (lizard) hunt. Or some kind of "James Bond In Space." Or, frankly, 'Murica vs ISIS with a nice big helping of Islamophobia.
Look at the press release linked in the tweet - "A kinetic, action-packed adventure on a huge canvas, Consider Phlebas draws upon the extraordinary world and mythology Banks created in the Culture, in which a highly advanced and progressive society ends up at war with the Idirans, a deeply religious, warlike race intent on dominating the entire galaxy." That looks to me like someone picked up on the "war" part and the "rogue agent" part and the action setpieces and maybe kinda missed the actual themes of the work. And while the producers at Plan B have some nice things to say about Banks and seem like they might get where he was coming from . . . . . they also have World War Z in their resume, so that's a pretty big strike against them understanding how to adapt material in a way that preserves the best elements of the original.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:01 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
Look at the press release linked in the tweet - "A kinetic, action-packed adventure on a huge canvas, Consider Phlebas draws upon the extraordinary world and mythology Banks created in the Culture, in which a highly advanced and progressive society ends up at war with the Idirans, a deeply religious, warlike race intent on dominating the entire galaxy." That looks to me like someone picked up on the "war" part and the "rogue agent" part and the action setpieces and maybe kinda missed the actual themes of the work. And while the producers at Plan B have some nice things to say about Banks and seem like they might get where he was coming from . . . . . they also have World War Z in their resume, so that's a pretty big strike against them understanding how to adapt material in a way that preserves the best elements of the original.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:01 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
Sorry, I misread your comment as if you were someone in the US who discovered Banks while most of his books were out of print.
U.S., yes, but I was lucky enough to catch him the first time around.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 9:01 AM on February 21, 2018
U.S., yes, but I was lucky enough to catch him the first time around.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 9:01 AM on February 21, 2018
Also if you scan past the bitcoin scammer, the other replies are fabulous. Person after person taking Bezos to task for all the horrible things Amazon does, and wondering if Iain would have had a few moral issues with letting his FALGSA be depicted by someone so relentlessly capitalist. I was having doubts like that start to rumble as I thought about this, and I am glad to see I am far from the only one.
posted by egypturnash at 9:01 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 9:01 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
Against a Dark Backgroud would be really fun too. Also The Algebraist.
posted by bonehead at 9:02 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 9:02 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Amazon TV is a mess right now.
How so?
There has been a tremendous amount of executive turnover since Roy Price resigned and Joe Lewis, who was in charge of TV, ‘exited’. That was the group that brought you Transparent and Man in the High Castle, among all other programming.
The next highest ranking creative executive there was someone who had only joined a few months previously, and who did not have a ton of experience in developing successful series, but was more of an acquisitions person. They have taken up the mantle in the interim (having been given a quarter of a billion dollars to buy the rights to The Hobbit with no creative attachments or vision whatsoever), and it was just announced the the #2 executive from NBC, and formerly 20th Century Fox TV studio, will now be replacing Roy Price. People have mixed feelings about her, but she’s not been in the cable/premium business and Amazon’s slate is full of projects that need to be handled very differently than the usual broadcast fare.
They’ve lost a number of other execs to Apple and Hulu, etc. but are pushing forward with these very expensive, complicated, and well-loved sci-fi pieces of IP with what, in my experience, is a creative team that’s in flux but also, not particularly well suited to know how to piece together and successfully move forward this kind of material.
I hope against hope I am proven wrong - and if they find incredibly strong creative attachments and let them pursue their vision there is hope - but Amazon’s process and decision making up until now just doesn’t give me a ton of confidence.
posted by buzzkillington at 9:04 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
How so?
There has been a tremendous amount of executive turnover since Roy Price resigned and Joe Lewis, who was in charge of TV, ‘exited’. That was the group that brought you Transparent and Man in the High Castle, among all other programming.
The next highest ranking creative executive there was someone who had only joined a few months previously, and who did not have a ton of experience in developing successful series, but was more of an acquisitions person. They have taken up the mantle in the interim (having been given a quarter of a billion dollars to buy the rights to The Hobbit with no creative attachments or vision whatsoever), and it was just announced the the #2 executive from NBC, and formerly 20th Century Fox TV studio, will now be replacing Roy Price. People have mixed feelings about her, but she’s not been in the cable/premium business and Amazon’s slate is full of projects that need to be handled very differently than the usual broadcast fare.
They’ve lost a number of other execs to Apple and Hulu, etc. but are pushing forward with these very expensive, complicated, and well-loved sci-fi pieces of IP with what, in my experience, is a creative team that’s in flux but also, not particularly well suited to know how to piece together and successfully move forward this kind of material.
I hope against hope I am proven wrong - and if they find incredibly strong creative attachments and let them pursue their vision there is hope - but Amazon’s process and decision making up until now just doesn’t give me a ton of confidence.
posted by buzzkillington at 9:04 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
a nice big helping of Islamophobia
I'm sorry to report that Banks does use the word jihad with respect to the Idirans. This would have been a lot more of an abstract comparison in 1987, of course.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 9:05 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry to report that Banks does use the word jihad with respect to the Idirans. This would have been a lot more of an abstract comparison in 1987, of course.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 9:05 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Was Ms. Maisel the former group?
posted by Artw at 9:06 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 9:06 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
There was a fair amount of space opera back then (especially compared to now), but I've read all the books you mentioned and none of them are as "over the top" as those Hamilton books.
Oh wow, I could not disagree more. (I haven't read the Hamilton series for a while, but I remember disliking its casual barbarism so much I had trouble finishing it.) That's not to say it wasn't an over-the-top space opera. It was. But man, I enjoyed the others I mention much more.
The Uplift, Revelation Space and Hyperion series are huge, in-depth space operas. They are similar to Banks' Culture series in that there are paragraphs thrown in as background in each that could easily be developed into their own novels.
I'll also add Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars' trilogy to the mix. The fourth book was a follow-up that did exactly that -- it took concepts he'd written that were essentially background filler and fleshed them out into short stories, such as what it would be like to play baseball on Mars.
posted by zarq at 9:07 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oh wow, I could not disagree more. (I haven't read the Hamilton series for a while, but I remember disliking its casual barbarism so much I had trouble finishing it.) That's not to say it wasn't an over-the-top space opera. It was. But man, I enjoyed the others I mention much more.
The Uplift, Revelation Space and Hyperion series are huge, in-depth space operas. They are similar to Banks' Culture series in that there are paragraphs thrown in as background in each that could easily be developed into their own novels.
I'll also add Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars' trilogy to the mix. The fourth book was a follow-up that did exactly that -- it took concepts he'd written that were essentially background filler and fleshed them out into short stories, such as what it would be like to play baseball on Mars.
posted by zarq at 9:07 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Was Ms. Maisel the former group?
Yes. But also, you don’t mess with Amy Sherman-Palladino. She gets to see through her vision regardless of what any executive says.
Not to mention - Ms. Maisel, which I ADORE - is a more standard character dramedy. This isn’t complex world building on a grand scale like Hobbit and other SF properties they have.
posted by buzzkillington at 9:10 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yes. But also, you don’t mess with Amy Sherman-Palladino. She gets to see through her vision regardless of what any executive says.
Not to mention - Ms. Maisel, which I ADORE - is a more standard character dramedy. This isn’t complex world building on a grand scale like Hobbit and other SF properties they have.
posted by buzzkillington at 9:10 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
That looks to me like someone picked up on the "war" part and the "rogue agent" part and the action setpieces and maybe kinda missed the actual themes of the work.
If they don't get the framing and perspective twist at the end, they will have literally missed the point of the book.
If they get it right, though, it'll be a tremendous treat for new viewers.
Unless they go the Rubber-Forehead route, the Idirans are gonna kill their CGI budget.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:11 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
If they don't get the framing and perspective twist at the end, they will have literally missed the point of the book.
If they get it right, though, it'll be a tremendous treat for new viewers.
Unless they go the Rubber-Forehead route, the Idirans are gonna kill their CGI budget.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:11 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Unless they go the Rubber-Forehead route, the Idirans are gonna kill their CGI budget.
"Is that a rubber third leg or are you just happy to see me, Querl?"
posted by zarq at 9:14 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
"Is that a rubber third leg or are you just happy to see me, Querl?"
posted by zarq at 9:14 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
Ann Leckie is doing high-concept space opera right now, even.
Though, given the identity/textual challenges in Ancillary Justice and others, it would be interesting to see how that could translate to video.
posted by bonehead at 9:16 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
Though, given the identity/textual challenges in Ancillary Justice and others, it would be interesting to see how that could translate to video.
posted by bonehead at 9:16 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
Here's an entertaining interview with Banks from 1996 in Wired which bears reading twenty years later (ouch)...
Lots of bits of it are apposite to this thread - such as whether he could or should set a 'Hampstead novel' in the Culture where the Culture was barely mentioned ("I could, but what's the point? Only to make the point"), but I'll resist quoting more. Except for:
"My design brief was 'out-Star-Wars Star Wars'. That's why I'd really like to see Phlebas filmed. I'd like that so much that I wouldn't mind if they changed the ending."
posted by Devonian at 9:18 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
Lots of bits of it are apposite to this thread - such as whether he could or should set a 'Hampstead novel' in the Culture where the Culture was barely mentioned ("I could, but what's the point? Only to make the point"), but I'll resist quoting more. Except for:
"My design brief was 'out-Star-Wars Star Wars'. That's why I'd really like to see Phlebas filmed. I'd like that so much that I wouldn't mind if they changed the ending."
posted by Devonian at 9:18 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
My personal favorite is Excession, but that should probably not be a first book, as more context of the Culture would help the enjoyment a ton.
Talk about unfilmable.
My favorite is also Excession, probably for that very reason.
posted by winna at 9:19 AM on February 21, 2018
Talk about unfilmable.
My favorite is also Excession, probably for that very reason.
posted by winna at 9:19 AM on February 21, 2018
"That's not to say it wasn't an over-the-top space opera. It was. But man, I enjoyed the others I mention much more."
Yeah, I'm just responding to the "over the top" thing. There were some interesting ideas in Night's Dawn, and I found many parts thrilling and very entertaining -- but I wasn't exactly saying the trilogy was "good". Certainly not in the ways which the books you mention share. But definitely "over the top". I found Night's Dawn exciting simply because I didn't expect him to do all the things he did within the trilogy or, more to the point, it was even possible to write an apparently "hard" (ugh, sorry) SF novel and go just bonkers with it the way he did.
Back to Banks, I reread Look to Windward a while back and I sort of think it's the most polished and affecting Culture book overall. Seems like people don't mention it much, though.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:23 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I'm just responding to the "over the top" thing. There were some interesting ideas in Night's Dawn, and I found many parts thrilling and very entertaining -- but I wasn't exactly saying the trilogy was "good". Certainly not in the ways which the books you mention share. But definitely "over the top". I found Night's Dawn exciting simply because I didn't expect him to do all the things he did within the trilogy or, more to the point, it was even possible to write an apparently "hard" (ugh, sorry) SF novel and go just bonkers with it the way he did.
Back to Banks, I reread Look to Windward a while back and I sort of think it's the most polished and affecting Culture book overall. Seems like people don't mention it much, though.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:23 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
While we're talking Sci Fi and TV, I've already mentioned that I'd love to see The Diamond Age made into a show.
But you know what would also be really awesome? A Fire upon the Deep.
Kids fighting for survival in a world not their own!
Game of Thrones with group-mind wolves!
Adorable* sentient plants on little mobile carts that provide them short-term memory!
A malevolent AI blight!
That book has stuck with me for years.
* ...and yet
posted by leotrotsky at 9:23 AM on February 21, 2018 [7 favorites]
But you know what would also be really awesome? A Fire upon the Deep.
Kids fighting for survival in a world not their own!
Game of Thrones with group-mind wolves!
Adorable* sentient plants on little mobile carts that provide them short-term memory!
A malevolent AI blight!
That book has stuck with me for years.
* ...and yet
posted by leotrotsky at 9:23 AM on February 21, 2018 [7 favorites]
I also had trouble with the CamelCase character names -- I swear I read somewhere that Banks simply plugged in random syllables to generate names, which worked better for me in planet-hopping, full-effect Culture novels than it did in Inversions.
I have some bad news about Feersum Endjinn :D
About a quarter of that novel is told by a dyslexic character. It's written phonetically.
Sample text: "Woak up. Got dresd. Had brekfast. Spoke wif Ergates thi ant who sed itz juss been wurk wurk wurk 4 u lately master Bascule, Y dont u ½ a holiday? & I agreed & that woz how we decided we otter go 2 c Mr Zoliparia in thi I-ball ov thi gargoyle Rosbrith."
posted by zarq at 9:25 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have some bad news about Feersum Endjinn :D
About a quarter of that novel is told by a dyslexic character. It's written phonetically.
Sample text: "Woak up. Got dresd. Had brekfast. Spoke wif Ergates thi ant who sed itz juss been wurk wurk wurk 4 u lately master Bascule, Y dont u ½ a holiday? & I agreed & that woz how we decided we otter go 2 c Mr Zoliparia in thi I-ball ov thi gargoyle Rosbrith."
posted by zarq at 9:25 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Its a bit weird to me that Jeff Bezos, one of Earth's closest counterparts to Joiler Veppers, is a Culture fan. I'd have expected him to absolutely hate the Communist, or socialist, or post-scarcity, or whatever you want to call it aspects of the Culture series.
"Money is a sign of poverty" is not a motto I'd think a billionaire who ruthlessly exploits and abuses his employees would approve of.
That said, I can see why they'd chose Consider Phlebas as the first to try adapting. It's got the cool space ship sequences, lots of fight scenes, Danger, and while the Idirans will eat a lot of CG budget if they do them right, they don't really have a lot of screentime so maybe that'd balance out?
It's easily one of the most filmable of the Culture books. And, perhaps this is why Bezos chose it, it's one where you don't really see any of the Culture to speak of so the non-economy of the Culture isn't really on display.
posted by sotonohito at 9:26 AM on February 21, 2018 [7 favorites]
"Money is a sign of poverty" is not a motto I'd think a billionaire who ruthlessly exploits and abuses his employees would approve of.
That said, I can see why they'd chose Consider Phlebas as the first to try adapting. It's got the cool space ship sequences, lots of fight scenes, Danger, and while the Idirans will eat a lot of CG budget if they do them right, they don't really have a lot of screentime so maybe that'd balance out?
It's easily one of the most filmable of the Culture books. And, perhaps this is why Bezos chose it, it's one where you don't really see any of the Culture to speak of so the non-economy of the Culture isn't really on display.
posted by sotonohito at 9:26 AM on February 21, 2018 [7 favorites]
Its a bit weird to me that Jeff Bezos, one of Earth's closest counterparts to Joiler Veppers, is a Culture fan. I'd have expected him to absolutely hate the Communist, or socialist, or post-scarcity, or whatever you want to call it aspects of the Culture series.
Elon Musk, too. Nobody sees themselves as the villain in their own story.
But honestly, look at what Amazon provides, and the manner in which they provide it. You could make an argument on the numbers, as Matt Yglesias says, that “Amazon, as best I can tell, is a charitable organisation being run by elements of the investment community for the benefit of consumers.”
I mean, I doubt they'd see it that way, but look at their revenue vs. net income!
posted by leotrotsky at 9:30 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
Elon Musk, too. Nobody sees themselves as the villain in their own story.
But honestly, look at what Amazon provides, and the manner in which they provide it. You could make an argument on the numbers, as Matt Yglesias says, that “Amazon, as best I can tell, is a charitable organisation being run by elements of the investment community for the benefit of consumers.”
I mean, I doubt they'd see it that way, but look at their revenue vs. net income!
posted by leotrotsky at 9:30 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oh so many Culture thoughts.
Player of Games, as mentioned, really lends itself to a serial format.
I have an entire main title sequence designed in my head for a Use of Weapons series, with REM's "World Leader Pretend" as theme music.
Surface Detail has its problems, but I want it to be filmed only so William Fichtner can play the voice/avatoid of Falling Outside the Normal Moral Constraints.
And Consider Phlebas should be animated ("should be animated" is actually how I feel about three fourths of adaptations but it won't happen), and probably lose the Damage game and the utterly tedious cannibal island sequence.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 9:40 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Player of Games, as mentioned, really lends itself to a serial format.
I have an entire main title sequence designed in my head for a Use of Weapons series, with REM's "World Leader Pretend" as theme music.
Surface Detail has its problems, but I want it to be filmed only so William Fichtner can play the voice/avatoid of Falling Outside the Normal Moral Constraints.
And Consider Phlebas should be animated ("should be animated" is actually how I feel about three fourths of adaptations but it won't happen), and probably lose the Damage game and the utterly tedious cannibal island sequence.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 9:40 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Doug Jones could pull off the third leg thing, I’m sure.
posted by Artw at 9:49 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:49 AM on February 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oof.
Okay, I want to preface this by saying that I'm a huge, giant nerdboy fan of the Culture series. I actually would recommend Look To Windward if you're looking to get into the books.
I don't think they should be made into a series.
And I'd like to say I'm not one of those folks who is so precious about their media that I don't think anyone should ever adapt anything. I'm a giant PKD fan, and I quite like what they did with Man In The High Castle. It's a radical adaptation and I think it's pretty great.
But I don't think the Culture novels can ever really work and here's why. The Culture is a nice envisioning of the apotheosis of human technological civilization. It's pretty much a perfect society for 99% of the sentients living in it. But obviously "everybody had a really nice time" is a pretty boring story.
So, the only way that making a story out of that works is if there are a) outside threats and/or b) people who don't really fit in. Banks did a great job of rolling both of those concepts up with Special Circumstances (the Culture equivalent of a spy agency). They are there to deal with the edges of The Culture that are rubbing up against alien civilizations and pretty much only attract people for whom the endless awesomeness of the Culture doesn't really work.
So, here's the problem with portraying that as a series. The role of the antihero (and my god are the protagonists of Culture novels antiheroes), is generally different on screen and in novels. It is much, much easier to make a novel about a terrible person from the inside and make you still understand that they are a terrible person. With a few notable examples (I'm thinking of Nightcrawler or Breaking Bad right now), most movies and series' tend to have you identify with the main character, because otherwise why are watching this?
I suppose it's possible that there could be the same deft touch as was brought to Walter White with Horza, but I'm not at all confident about it. A shapechanging mercenary/assassin is going to be way to cool as a gruff antihero with a troubled past for most writers.
I hope I'm wrong.
posted by lumpenprole at 9:52 AM on February 21, 2018 [12 favorites]
Okay, I want to preface this by saying that I'm a huge, giant nerdboy fan of the Culture series. I actually would recommend Look To Windward if you're looking to get into the books.
I don't think they should be made into a series.
And I'd like to say I'm not one of those folks who is so precious about their media that I don't think anyone should ever adapt anything. I'm a giant PKD fan, and I quite like what they did with Man In The High Castle. It's a radical adaptation and I think it's pretty great.
But I don't think the Culture novels can ever really work and here's why. The Culture is a nice envisioning of the apotheosis of human technological civilization. It's pretty much a perfect society for 99% of the sentients living in it. But obviously "everybody had a really nice time" is a pretty boring story.
So, the only way that making a story out of that works is if there are a) outside threats and/or b) people who don't really fit in. Banks did a great job of rolling both of those concepts up with Special Circumstances (the Culture equivalent of a spy agency). They are there to deal with the edges of The Culture that are rubbing up against alien civilizations and pretty much only attract people for whom the endless awesomeness of the Culture doesn't really work.
So, here's the problem with portraying that as a series. The role of the antihero (and my god are the protagonists of Culture novels antiheroes), is generally different on screen and in novels. It is much, much easier to make a novel about a terrible person from the inside and make you still understand that they are a terrible person. With a few notable examples (I'm thinking of Nightcrawler or Breaking Bad right now), most movies and series' tend to have you identify with the main character, because otherwise why are watching this?
I suppose it's possible that there could be the same deft touch as was brought to Walter White with Horza, but I'm not at all confident about it. A shapechanging mercenary/assassin is going to be way to cool as a gruff antihero with a troubled past for most writers.
I hope I'm wrong.
posted by lumpenprole at 9:52 AM on February 21, 2018 [12 favorites]
Also The Algebraist.
Six hours of watching a coffin float around in a fog and have conversations, 1 hour of that is just peoples names and titles.
Against a Dark Background
The gun that makes anvils fall on people might be too much of a tonal shift for the screen.
posted by rodlymight at 10:02 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
Six hours of watching a coffin float around in a fog and have conversations, 1 hour of that is just peoples names and titles.
Against a Dark Background
The gun that makes anvils fall on people might be too much of a tonal shift for the screen.
posted by rodlymight at 10:02 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
I appear to be in the minority but I'm fine with the choice of Phlebas to start the adaptations. Just because the book may not be his strongest doesn't mean the rewrite for the screen has to start elsewhere; the action is a good starting point for the story of the Culture. Many of the 'better' books would be so much easier to adapt if the backstory for the Culture has already been established (Excession, I'm looking at you).
Going back to the late 80's Consider Phlebas was absolutely a game-changer as a space opera with massive scope and invention. Gibson's near future worlds were huge at the time and even in the bigger settings like Brin's Uplift or Cherryh's Alliance books the stories were quite personal, focused on a small piece of a bigger picture. Banks was a completely different voice at the time.
posted by N-stoff at 10:08 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Going back to the late 80's Consider Phlebas was absolutely a game-changer as a space opera with massive scope and invention. Gibson's near future worlds were huge at the time and even in the bigger settings like Brin's Uplift or Cherryh's Alliance books the stories were quite personal, focused on a small piece of a bigger picture. Banks was a completely different voice at the time.
posted by N-stoff at 10:08 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
I liked Consider Phlebas
posted by Going To Maine at 10:20 AM on February 21, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 10:20 AM on February 21, 2018 [18 favorites]
It's been a while since I read Matter, but (along with being one of my favorites) that strikes me as one of the better introductions to the series -- it follows an outsider being introduced to The Culture, and shows a lot of how they fit with the varied (and sometimes ancient and terrifying) non-Culture powers that populate the universe.
Plus, its dark explanation for the title is one of my favorite bits from Banks:
"By this reasoning we must, after all, be at the most base level of reality – or at the most exalted, however one wishes to look at it. Just as reality can blithely exhibit the most absurd coincidences that no credible fiction could convince us of, so only reality – produced, ultimately, by matter in the raw – can be so unthinkingly cruel. Nothing able to think, nothing able to comprehend culpability, justice or morality could encompass such purposefully invoked savagery without representing the absolute definition of evil."
(Yes, he totally undermines this argument in Surface Detail, but it's still a great passage.)
posted by bjrubble at 10:30 AM on February 21, 2018
Plus, its dark explanation for the title is one of my favorite bits from Banks:
"By this reasoning we must, after all, be at the most base level of reality – or at the most exalted, however one wishes to look at it. Just as reality can blithely exhibit the most absurd coincidences that no credible fiction could convince us of, so only reality – produced, ultimately, by matter in the raw – can be so unthinkingly cruel. Nothing able to think, nothing able to comprehend culpability, justice or morality could encompass such purposefully invoked savagery without representing the absolute definition of evil."
(Yes, he totally undermines this argument in Surface Detail, but it's still a great passage.)
posted by bjrubble at 10:30 AM on February 21, 2018
If I were to create a series based on the Culture novels, I'd introduce it like Star Trek: something familiar and friendly with nifty spaceships and minor diplomatic "threats," something that the humans can handle. Then slowly pull the camera back to reveal that the human Crew aren't much more than cosplayers. The Drones, Ships, Hubs and Minds are the real engines that drive "the Enterprise", which by itself might be a big leap for a typical TV audience to make.
posted by SPrintF at 10:32 AM on February 21, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 10:32 AM on February 21, 2018 [13 favorites]
Inversions is the book to read after you've read most if not all of the Culture books.
Inversions should be read without you actually knowing it's a Culture book, as then the surprise that it is, isn't ruined.
So.
Sorry.
posted by MartinWisse at 10:37 AM on February 21, 2018
Inversions should be read without you actually knowing it's a Culture book, as then the surprise that it is, isn't ruined.
So.
Sorry.
posted by MartinWisse at 10:37 AM on February 21, 2018
It's got an M. in it, which might be a giveaway.
posted by Artw at 10:43 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:43 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think Inversions is the reason I kept expecting the Presger to reveal themselves as SC agents and overthrow the Radsch.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 10:54 AM on February 21, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 10:54 AM on February 21, 2018 [7 favorites]
Honestly, why they're not adapting The Wasp Factory is a mystery to me.
posted by lumpenprole at 10:58 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by lumpenprole at 10:58 AM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
I can think of several reasons why one might not go down too well these days, TBH.
posted by Artw at 11:01 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:01 AM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
From Watchmen to Catch-22: can TV tackle 'unfilmable' books?
posted by Artw at 11:02 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 11:02 AM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Over 100 comments and nobody has said "Consider Bezos"?
I guess I'm still needed here.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:04 AM on February 21, 2018 [11 favorites]
I guess I'm still needed here.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:04 AM on February 21, 2018 [11 favorites]
And Bezos' commitment to the first book in the series may be connected to the names of some of the ships in it: Profit Margin, No More Mr Nice Guy, Revisionist, Trade Surplus, Irregular Apocalypse...
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:10 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:10 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't think it can be overlooked that one reason we're probably going to see this now is that Banks, tragically, is dead. I'm not sure he'd be a huge fan of Amazon given his political leanings. Ok, he's no Ken Macleod but still.
On the other hand I thought Richard Morgan was even more strident and he cashed out that Netflix money like nobody's business. So who knows.
In any case, to paraphrase my comment in the recent Banks metatalk; I respect all of your opinions on the Culture books, even the many wrong ones.
posted by Justinian at 11:50 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
On the other hand I thought Richard Morgan was even more strident and he cashed out that Netflix money like nobody's business. So who knows.
In any case, to paraphrase my comment in the recent Banks metatalk; I respect all of your opinions on the Culture books, even the many wrong ones.
posted by Justinian at 11:50 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Honestly, why they're not adapting The Wasp Factory is a mystery to me.
Banks initially sold the rights to an Irish film company but they went bust and were bought out by an US company that - horror of horrors - wanted to make a version set in the USA. Banks then had to battle for years to get the rights back.
More recently (like around 5-ish years ago) Stephen Daldry was going to do it... but I guess that fizzled out.
There was an opera though! (And a couple of stage versions)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:51 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Banks initially sold the rights to an Irish film company but they went bust and were bought out by an US company that - horror of horrors - wanted to make a version set in the USA. Banks then had to battle for years to get the rights back.
More recently (like around 5-ish years ago) Stephen Daldry was going to do it... but I guess that fizzled out.
There was an opera though! (And a couple of stage versions)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:51 AM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
My own opinion is that going with Phlebas is absolutely the right move. This is going to reach many more people than the novels and, by optioning this one, you can make a real attempt to preserve the slowly dawning epiphany that Horza is on the wrong side. I have trouble thinking of analogous storylines in mainstream television. You've got THE AMERICANS, sure, but it's not like it's a surprise to the viewer that maybe the Soviet Union isn't all that it's cracked up to be by the protagonists.
Any shortcomings in the novel can be corrected in the script. If there is one thing Hollywood is known for it is improving on the source material in an adaptation.
posted by Justinian at 11:55 AM on February 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
Any shortcomings in the novel can be corrected in the script. If there is one thing Hollywood is known for it is improving on the source material in an adaptation.
posted by Justinian at 11:55 AM on February 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
You almost have to start with Phlebas, there isn't really a "first" Culture novel. You have to set up the Culture somehow so you can make Use of Weapons.
Personally, I can't wait. I really like the idea of a season rather than an attempt at a standalone movie. It's not just the realization that Horza's on the wrong side, but that everybody is on the wrong side. There not being any "good guys" is one of the central pieces of Banks' storytelling.
I could see the Mind-speech being physical actors in a virtual room, the same physical actors that play the ship avatars maybe?
I wonder why more of his non M. stuff never got optioned. I always wanted a better version of Crow Road, although seeing a young Peter Capaldi was quite funny.
posted by Sphinx at 12:17 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
Personally, I can't wait. I really like the idea of a season rather than an attempt at a standalone movie. It's not just the realization that Horza's on the wrong side, but that everybody is on the wrong side. There not being any "good guys" is one of the central pieces of Banks' storytelling.
I could see the Mind-speech being physical actors in a virtual room, the same physical actors that play the ship avatars maybe?
I wonder why more of his non M. stuff never got optioned. I always wanted a better version of Crow Road, although seeing a young Peter Capaldi was quite funny.
posted by Sphinx at 12:17 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
You know, I was just thinking how much I liked Auntie Beeb's Crow Road, and was imagining their take on The Culture, complete with Dr Who special effects.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 12:38 PM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 12:38 PM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
There was an opera though! (And a couple of stage versions)
A whatnow? An opera?
Holy cow. It played at the Royal Opera House in 2013.
Ben Frost on the stunt rigging. (youtube)
ROH: The Wasp Factory: A political allegory? Read between the lines and Iain Banks’s cult novel can be read as a post-Orwellian critique of Thatcher.
An opera. Incredible.
posted by zarq at 12:40 PM on February 21, 2018 [7 favorites]
A whatnow? An opera?
Holy cow. It played at the Royal Opera House in 2013.
In 2013, the composer Ben Frost and librettist David Pountney devised an unconventional opera piece inspired by the 1984 psychological horror novel The Wasp Factory. Its music is shockingly beautiful.The album's on bandcamp and here's a Youtube playlist.
Ben Frost on the stunt rigging. (youtube)
ROH: The Wasp Factory: A political allegory? Read between the lines and Iain Banks’s cult novel can be read as a post-Orwellian critique of Thatcher.
An opera. Incredible.
posted by zarq at 12:40 PM on February 21, 2018 [7 favorites]
*trying to get preemptively disappointed*
I can't remember, was that an ROU or a VFP?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:51 PM on February 21, 2018 [13 favorites]
I can't remember, was that an ROU or a VFP?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:51 PM on February 21, 2018 [13 favorites]
Sounds more like a GCU to me.
posted by sotonohito at 12:53 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 12:53 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
I choose to be hopeful. Man in the High Castle is better as a series than a novel.
posted by longdaysjourney at 1:06 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by longdaysjourney at 1:06 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Somehow, thankfully, Consider Phlebas was enough of a success that Banks continued in the series and his publisher let him
Looking at the inside cover of my paperback copy it had already been through 11 printings when I bought it. Banks was a phenomenon.
posted by pharm at 1:13 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Looking at the inside cover of my paperback copy it had already been through 11 printings when I bought it. Banks was a phenomenon.
posted by pharm at 1:13 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
You know, I was just thinking how much I liked Auntie Beeb's Crow Road
Holy crap I had no idea they did this. Dare I? I'm terrified of the Wasp Factory Opera but in a good way.
After thinking about this more I agree with a few of you that Phlebas is the best place to start.
Now I want someone to do Feersum Endjinn, Flowers for Algernon style.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:16 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Holy crap I had no idea they did this. Dare I? I'm terrified of the Wasp Factory Opera but in a good way.
After thinking about this more I agree with a few of you that Phlebas is the best place to start.
Now I want someone to do Feersum Endjinn, Flowers for Algernon style.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:16 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Man in the High Castle is better as a series than a novel.
You take that back.
I actually sorta like Linklater's Scanner Darkly, but the book actually brought me to tears.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:18 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
You take that back.
I actually sorta like Linklater's Scanner Darkly, but the book actually brought me to tears.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:18 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
I just think it has to be said there's some sick irony in either Hollywood or a Big Tech CEO championing a book like Consider Phlebas. Like, Jeff Bezos, did you not understand the whole point of the book was a leftist critique of everything that you and your actions represent?
It's more than the book is unfilmable, or that Banks was trying to write an anti-scifi book of his time. To read CP as "about" the wonders of a post-scarcity, post-desire Culture is just missing the philosophical point of the text. I don't see how an Amazon studio getting their hands on this won't distort/neuter/sanitize the politics of the story.
posted by polymodus at 1:25 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
It's more than the book is unfilmable, or that Banks was trying to write an anti-scifi book of his time. To read CP as "about" the wonders of a post-scarcity, post-desire Culture is just missing the philosophical point of the text. I don't see how an Amazon studio getting their hands on this won't distort/neuter/sanitize the politics of the story.
posted by polymodus at 1:25 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
"...the slowly dawning epiphany that Horza is on the wrong side."
I always remembered his name as Horza Gorbachev for some reason. Maybe that's why.
posted by Kevin Street at 1:34 PM on February 21, 2018
I always remembered his name as Horza Gorbachev for some reason. Maybe that's why.
posted by Kevin Street at 1:34 PM on February 21, 2018
I think if you're a tech billionaire it could be easy to imagine a post-scarcity future that comes out of western-style capitalism, in a capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction kind of a way. Bezos talks a big game about unlocking the resources of the cislunar system at least, and at least one other rocket company CEO thinks that way.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 1:43 PM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 1:43 PM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
I suppose I could see how the tech billionaires might, to invoke a different series, see themselves as trying to urge humanity along the Golden Path, as sort of tech Kwisatz Haderachs.
And I'll certainly agree that Musk at least is doing something in that direction. But yeesh the exploitation at the bottom that supports their billions is not something I see as acceptable.
posted by sotonohito at 2:00 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
And I'll certainly agree that Musk at least is doing something in that direction. But yeesh the exploitation at the bottom that supports their billions is not something I see as acceptable.
posted by sotonohito at 2:00 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have to admit I'm shocked at so many people who didn't love this book. I LOVE this book. I especially love it because it's the only one of the Culture novels that isn't 100% pro-Culture.
I hope this doesn't suck.
(I won't be upset if they leave Fwi Song and the Eaters out)
posted by biscotti at 3:46 PM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
I hope this doesn't suck.
(I won't be upset if they leave Fwi Song and the Eaters out)
posted by biscotti at 3:46 PM on February 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
There are some AMAZING setpieces in Consider Phlebas (the train ride, raiding the orbital, parts of the Damage contest, etc.), along with some stuff best left on the cutting room floor.
Were I running the show, it would probably start with The Player of Games and get cancelled after I spent an entire episode on the intricacies of playing Azad. Oh, and most of the catering budget would recreate the journey from Raw Spirit, which is his Banks' cracking piece of non-fiction about finding the perfect dram in Scotland.
Now THAT would have been a great series.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 4:55 PM on February 21, 2018 [7 favorites]
Were I running the show, it would probably start with The Player of Games and get cancelled after I spent an entire episode on the intricacies of playing Azad. Oh, and most of the catering budget would recreate the journey from Raw Spirit, which is his Banks' cracking piece of non-fiction about finding the perfect dram in Scotland.
Now THAT would have been a great series.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 4:55 PM on February 21, 2018 [7 favorites]
I especially love it because it's the only one of the Culture novels that isn't 100% pro-Culture.
Really? Because I find that every one of the Culture novels questions the existence of the Culture. I think CP is the most explicit about it.
posted by nubs at 5:30 PM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
Really? Because I find that every one of the Culture novels questions the existence of the Culture. I think CP is the most explicit about it.
posted by nubs at 5:30 PM on February 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
the train ride, raiding the orbital, parts of the Damage contest, etc
Kraiklyn and Horzakraiklyn fighting under the hovercraft
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:46 PM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Kraiklyn and Horzakraiklyn fighting under the hovercraft
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:46 PM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm excited about this, and will reserve all judgement until I actually get to experience the series.
posted by flippant at 6:14 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by flippant at 6:14 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Kraiklyn and Horzakraiklyn fighting under the hovercraft
GSV When The Walls Fell
posted by tobascodagama at 6:31 PM on February 21, 2018 [15 favorites]
GSV When The Walls Fell
posted by tobascodagama at 6:31 PM on February 21, 2018 [15 favorites]
Back to Banks, I reread Look to Windward a while back and I sort of think it's the most polished and affecting Culture book overall. Seems like people don't mention it much, though.
Look to Windward is hands-down my favorite Culture novel, and I don't know if it would be as affecting without first having read Consider Phlebas.
posted by audi alteram partem at 7:21 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
Look to Windward is hands-down my favorite Culture novel, and I don't know if it would be as affecting without first having read Consider Phlebas.
posted by audi alteram partem at 7:21 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
Halloween Jack: "I don't know what the CP haters' problem is. Consider Phlebasis obviously, patently, and gloriously a pisstake on traditional SF tropes, particularly the scrappy ragtag band of mercenaries. The Han Solo/Mal Reynolds is a shitbird, nowhere near as smart or canny as he thinks he is and a bit in love with his own self-image, and half of the stereotypically varied crew dies on what should be a bog-standard dungeon crawl. I loved it. And the cannibal island thing is very easily removable."
My feelings exactly. Loved Consider Phlebas, found Player of Games a sort of slog with a bit of a nonsensical almost deus ex machina ending and haven't been able to finish Use of Weapons.
biscotti: "(I won't be upset if they leave Fwi Song and the Eaters out)"
Spoilery bit follows: They've got to have some sort of escape sequence to show what a bad-ass Mind killing agent the guy is but it certainly doesn't have to be so sick and disgusting.
posted by Mitheral at 9:00 PM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
My feelings exactly. Loved Consider Phlebas, found Player of Games a sort of slog with a bit of a nonsensical almost deus ex machina ending and haven't been able to finish Use of Weapons.
biscotti: "(I won't be upset if they leave Fwi Song and the Eaters out)"
Spoilery bit follows: They've got to have some sort of escape sequence to show what a bad-ass Mind killing agent the guy is but it certainly doesn't have to be so sick and disgusting.
posted by Mitheral at 9:00 PM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
[Indirect spoiler alert for Look to Windward]
I think Look to Windward would be amazing, with the past war largely alluded to, sight-unseen, and if directed skillfully would work to invert the common Hollywood trope of the Good Guy Protagonist. Not least of all because you could slowly walk the audience down the garden path of rooting for a suicide bomber, but even that you could flip in the end. I think that would work rather well for an episodic TV show (which tend to require a lot of plot twists) without losing its edge in the end.
That said, I don't know who I'd ever trust to produce something like that, but... man it'd be amazing if it did.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:13 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think Look to Windward would be amazing, with the past war largely alluded to, sight-unseen, and if directed skillfully would work to invert the common Hollywood trope of the Good Guy Protagonist. Not least of all because you could slowly walk the audience down the garden path of rooting for a suicide bomber, but even that you could flip in the end. I think that would work rather well for an episodic TV show (which tend to require a lot of plot twists) without losing its edge in the end.
That said, I don't know who I'd ever trust to produce something like that, but... man it'd be amazing if it did.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:13 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
in a capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction kind of a way
e.g., in. Marxist way? Oh man, you are an optimistic sort if you really truly can read Bezos and Musk in that way. They're shilling, man. They may legitimately think want to get beyond capitalism, as long as getting beyond capitalism doesn't threaten their individual, familial, corporatist, and investment interests. The only political system in global postindustrial economics that passes that test is fascist oligarchy. Bezos and Musk might sincerely beleive that their goal is FALC; but they don't, they really don't. Don't give them the benefit of your doubt.
I am not saying don't buy shit on Amaaon or drive a Tesla or whatever. I am saying don't trust these guys. Look at BillG. He was the prickliest motherfucker, and now he's spending the last half of his life doing global health nonprofit stuff. The Gates Foundation makes a difference, if looked at thru their schema. But it's not enough. It can't ever be enough.
Tesla and Amazon are not going to flip the switch to create FALC. That's up to us. Peopl are going to die making it happen. It could be you, it could be me, it could be your kids. But Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are never ever going to transform the economic relations of the global global economy in such a way that they have relatively less economic control and percentile revenue from it than they do now voluntarily.
posted by mwhybark at 9:22 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
e.g., in. Marxist way? Oh man, you are an optimistic sort if you really truly can read Bezos and Musk in that way. They're shilling, man. They may legitimately think want to get beyond capitalism, as long as getting beyond capitalism doesn't threaten their individual, familial, corporatist, and investment interests. The only political system in global postindustrial economics that passes that test is fascist oligarchy. Bezos and Musk might sincerely beleive that their goal is FALC; but they don't, they really don't. Don't give them the benefit of your doubt.
I am not saying don't buy shit on Amaaon or drive a Tesla or whatever. I am saying don't trust these guys. Look at BillG. He was the prickliest motherfucker, and now he's spending the last half of his life doing global health nonprofit stuff. The Gates Foundation makes a difference, if looked at thru their schema. But it's not enough. It can't ever be enough.
Tesla and Amazon are not going to flip the switch to create FALC. That's up to us. Peopl are going to die making it happen. It could be you, it could be me, it could be your kids. But Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are never ever going to transform the economic relations of the global global economy in such a way that they have relatively less economic control and percentile revenue from it than they do now voluntarily.
posted by mwhybark at 9:22 PM on February 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
If completed, this will the first Culture book to be filmed
I thought we already had a Culture TV series...
posted by happyroach at 11:07 PM on February 21, 2018
I thought we already had a Culture TV series...
posted by happyroach at 11:07 PM on February 21, 2018
goodness, my apologies for the impassioned typos.
posted by mwhybark at 11:37 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by mwhybark at 11:37 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
mwhybark: Ok, but the question wasn't "is FAL(GS)C possible without a revolution?", it was "how can these two billionaires be genuine fans of Iain M Banks?". Banks himself was not a revolutionary. Sure, he'd have detested their union busting, but that aspect would be easy to miss if you only read his sci-fi.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 1:36 AM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 1:36 AM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Every couple of years the BBC replays it's radio adaptation of 'The State of the Art'... no doubt you can find it in other places.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:37 AM on February 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:37 AM on February 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
On the plus side we at least have a realistic idea for how long it will take for the next Culture book to be written.
posted by srboisvert at 4:49 AM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 4:49 AM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Surface Detail would really fit our historical moment.
posted by BS Artisan at 4:56 AM on February 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by BS Artisan at 4:56 AM on February 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
LTW is the best Culture novel for my particular tastes.
I think if you're a tech billionaire it could be easy to imagine a post-scarcity future that comes out of western-style capitalism
I mean, Marxism basically imagines such a progression if you take the most facile interpretation of the dialectic.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:03 AM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think if you're a tech billionaire it could be easy to imagine a post-scarcity future that comes out of western-style capitalism
I mean, Marxism basically imagines such a progression if you take the most facile interpretation of the dialectic.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:03 AM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
After the appalling hash that resulted from Amazon's wholly hamfisted adaptation of The Expanse
Amazon isn't at all involved with making The Expanse. It's made by Alcon and distributed by whoever they happen to have sold it to in a particular market. In most of the world it's a Netflix show; in the US it's on *kif sigh* SyFy and later on Amazon.
Also it is great and I will send Bobbie to fight you. Hamfisted? Maybe cucumber-sandwich-fisted.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:11 AM on February 22, 2018 [10 favorites]
Amazon isn't at all involved with making The Expanse. It's made by Alcon and distributed by whoever they happen to have sold it to in a particular market. In most of the world it's a Netflix show; in the US it's on *kif sigh* SyFy and later on Amazon.
Also it is great and I will send Bobbie to fight you. Hamfisted? Maybe cucumber-sandwich-fisted.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:11 AM on February 22, 2018 [10 favorites]
I mean, Marxism basically imagines such a progression if you take the most facile interpretation of the dialectic.
Well, right, independently arriving at the naive technoutopianism part of Marxism is what I meant.
Also, man, that's two TV shows I liked that people in this thread have slated.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 7:12 AM on February 22, 2018
Well, right, independently arriving at the naive technoutopianism part of Marxism is what I meant.
Also, man, that's two TV shows I liked that people in this thread have slated.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 7:12 AM on February 22, 2018
On the plus side we at least have a realistic idea for how long it will take for the next Culture book to be written.
:(
posted by aspersioncast at 7:24 AM on February 22, 2018
:(
posted by aspersioncast at 7:24 AM on February 22, 2018
Honestly bringing characters forwards in the way The Expanse did seems like a really good choice for Consuder Phlebas - it might as well be Diziet Sma anyway and I have to remind myself that it isn’t.
posted by Artw at 7:38 AM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:38 AM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
After the appalling hash that resulted from Amazon's wholly hamfisted adaptation of The Expanse*boggle*
If anything, the adaptation is LESS hamfisted than the original prose.
posted by uberchet at 7:42 AM on February 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
it might as well be Diziet Sma anyway and I have to remind myself that it isn’t
Yeah, if I were making this I would swap out Balveda for Sma and cut the show between CP and State of the Art.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:00 AM on February 22, 2018
Yeah, if I were making this I would swap out Balveda for Sma and cut the show between CP and State of the Art.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:00 AM on February 22, 2018
(I would say Charlize Theron as Sma but at this point that feels like typecasting)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:01 AM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:01 AM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Don't fuck with the Culture.
posted by ulotrichous at 10:19 AM on February 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by ulotrichous at 10:19 AM on February 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
...but probably ask the Culture out because it is usually DTF.
(yes, a Sma of color would be great)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:00 AM on February 22, 2018
(yes, a Sma of color would be great)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:00 AM on February 22, 2018
The Expanse is great and I will fight you.
posted by Justinian at 11:33 AM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 11:33 AM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
I would say Charlize Theron as Sma but at this point that feels like typecasting
I'm sorry to have to point out your typo, but you clearly meant to write Vosill there.
posted by bonehead at 12:46 PM on February 22, 2018
I'm sorry to have to point out your typo, but you clearly meant to write Vosill there.
posted by bonehead at 12:46 PM on February 22, 2018
(speaking of unfilmable---I have no idea of how Inversions could be brought to the screen properly.)
posted by bonehead at 12:48 PM on February 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 12:48 PM on February 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Janelle Monáe is my head-Sma.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 12:50 PM on February 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 12:50 PM on February 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
Before or after she gets to play Anaander Mianaai? (Breq is supposed to be ugly, or at least homely, so someone else will have to play her.)
posted by tobascodagama at 12:55 PM on February 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 12:55 PM on February 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
I can't for the life of me remember how Sma is described in UoW or SotA. Does anyone know? Obviously she would in no way have to be cast to fit that description but it bothers me that I don't recall.
posted by Justinian at 1:56 PM on February 22, 2018
posted by Justinian at 1:56 PM on February 22, 2018
I remember her skin tone being described in UoW as "fawn," at least.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 2:01 PM on February 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by the phlegmatic king at 2:01 PM on February 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
As far as I can tell, other than Li droning on about her sexuality, Sma's not described in SotA. Use of Weapons has:
"The man turned quickly to find her standing behind him, leaning against a light-mast, her arms crossed, a small smile on her lips and in her eyes. Her hair was blue-black, like her eyes; her skin was fawn and she looked slimmer than she did on newscasts, when for all her height she could seem stocky."
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 2:09 PM on February 22, 2018
"The man turned quickly to find her standing behind him, leaning against a light-mast, her arms crossed, a small smile on her lips and in her eyes. Her hair was blue-black, like her eyes; her skin was fawn and she looked slimmer than she did on newscasts, when for all her height she could seem stocky."
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 2:09 PM on February 22, 2018
Surface Detail would really fit our historical moment.
Perhaps, but I think all the getting-brutally-raped-by-demons-in-virtual-hell might make it a wee bit unfilmable.
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:13 PM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Perhaps, but I think all the getting-brutally-raped-by-demons-in-virtual-hell might make it a wee bit unfilmable.
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:13 PM on February 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
The virtual hell in Surface Detail is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. Largely because it doesn't feel like an impossible future reality.
posted by Dumsnill at 2:19 PM on February 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Dumsnill at 2:19 PM on February 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
If we learned tomorrow that we are actually currently living in a virtual hell I would be only mildly surprised.
posted by Justinian at 4:18 PM on February 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:18 PM on February 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
tobascodagama Not to denigrate Janelle Monáe as an actor, but Anaander Mianaai should be played by Lupita Nyong'o.
posted by sotonohito at 6:45 PM on February 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by sotonohito at 6:45 PM on February 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Fair.
posted by tobascodagama at 4:45 AM on February 23, 2018
posted by tobascodagama at 4:45 AM on February 23, 2018
Every couple of years the BBC replays it's radio adaptation of 'The State of the Art'...
I just listened to this and it's pretty fun, though it is missing the Nixon Burgers. It's on YouTube for anyone interested.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 6:18 PM on February 23, 2018
I just listened to this and it's pretty fun, though it is missing the Nixon Burgers. It's on YouTube for anyone interested.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 6:18 PM on February 23, 2018
So, I've had a fairly unusual syllabus w/r/t reading Banks' sci-fi. I read Consider Phlebas, then Player of Games, loved both, then read both again. Then Surface Detail, which from what I understand has some relatively significant, or at least interesting, connections to previous books that I've missed. Liked a lot of it, found all the demon-rape a bit too much, and borderline gratuitous.
Then I switched over to his non-Culture sci-fi: The Algebraist, Transition, and Against a Dark Background, in that order. I've found them significantly less satisfying than the Culture novels. Of the three, I like The Algerbraist the most, although something in it's resolution seemed rushed, or lacking. The other two both seemed like they were incomplete, in different ways, and despite their significant length. Transition was a great idea, with great characters, but felt like the strain of the different narrative threads proved too much and they ran out of steam, in different places, and the ending was rushed. AaDB had some great ideas (I love the anti-religion based on hating god), and a lot of what felt, to me, like filler.
For further statistical reference, of the non-M work, I've only read The Wasp Factory(twice) and Complicity(once), loved both. I'm fascinated to see a film version of the latter (or the former!). I read about half of Crow Road, but was interrupted and haven't gotten around to starting over. I like what I read though, and again, very intrigued to see even a sub-par film, 'spesh if it's got a young Capaldi!
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:21 PM on February 23, 2018
Then I switched over to his non-Culture sci-fi: The Algebraist, Transition, and Against a Dark Background, in that order. I've found them significantly less satisfying than the Culture novels. Of the three, I like The Algerbraist the most, although something in it's resolution seemed rushed, or lacking. The other two both seemed like they were incomplete, in different ways, and despite their significant length. Transition was a great idea, with great characters, but felt like the strain of the different narrative threads proved too much and they ran out of steam, in different places, and the ending was rushed. AaDB had some great ideas (I love the anti-religion based on hating god), and a lot of what felt, to me, like filler.
For further statistical reference, of the non-M work, I've only read The Wasp Factory(twice) and Complicity(once), loved both. I'm fascinated to see a film version of the latter (or the former!). I read about half of Crow Road, but was interrupted and haven't gotten around to starting over. I like what I read though, and again, very intrigued to see even a sub-par film, 'spesh if it's got a young Capaldi!
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:21 PM on February 23, 2018
While a tv or movie version of Excession would be difficult (it's largely Minds communicating with other Minds about an Outside Context Problem while simultaneously preparing for war), there is a genuinely moving human narrative about the only awake passenger on the (supposedly eccentric ship-M) Sleeper Service and her previous lover and his/her travails. And the Sleeper Service's desperate attempt at bringing their relationship to an acceptable conclusion before it's too late. That story might make for an interesting show if the Mind chat issue could be solved,
posted by Dumsnill at 11:42 PM on February 23, 2018
posted by Dumsnill at 11:42 PM on February 23, 2018
Excession was written back in the 90s when txting, emailing, forums etc etc were still a relatively new and cool thing... and it was like a book. With text and stuff. I don't really see a problem with an adaptation having the Minds meeting up in some sort of VR space to chat - like a bar/pub, with private rooms for the sekret stuff. And with many many silly avatars (or ironically serious ones)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:45 AM on February 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:45 AM on February 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Tor started doing a Culture re-read a few weeks back
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:46 AM on February 24, 2018
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:46 AM on February 24, 2018
Maybe that would work, but it is understood in the novels that a transcripted conversation that covers 20 pages takes tiny fractions of nano-seconds for the Minds to complete in real time.
posted by Dumsnill at 2:47 AM on February 24, 2018
posted by Dumsnill at 2:47 AM on February 24, 2018
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posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:17 AM on February 21, 2018 [40 favorites]