This is not exactly what happened but it is basically what happened
February 25, 2018 2:25 PM Subscribe
Okay, so: Latin has this word, sic. Or, if we want to be more diacritically accurate, sīc. That shows that the i is long, so it’s pronounced like “seek” and not like “sick.”
Look, if the I in sic is long, why isn't it pronounced psych? I like that better, anyway. Long I is not pronounced like a long E. I will go back to reading now, TYVM.
posted by Oyéah at 2:53 PM on February 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 2:53 PM on February 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
This.
posted by belarius at 2:56 PM on February 25, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by belarius at 2:56 PM on February 25, 2018 [18 favorites]
This is fascinating! A little disappointed that there wasn’t an aside mentioning that “calque” is a loanword, and that “loanword” is a calque (from German “lehnwort”), but it was, as mentioned, already getting long enough.
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:00 PM on February 25, 2018 [28 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:00 PM on February 25, 2018 [28 favorites]
Oh, wow.
When I learned what sic meant in common usage, I decided it must be an acronym for "spelling is correct".
I haven't examined that conclusion for about 30 years.
posted by gurple at 3:07 PM on February 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
When I learned what sic meant in common usage, I decided it must be an acronym for "spelling is correct".
I haven't examined that conclusion for about 30 years.
posted by gurple at 3:07 PM on February 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
Huh, I guess growing up with a classicist dad comes with its own assumptions. I had basically internalised almost everything in this article by age 12. I still pronounce "sic" as "seek", though I do draw the line at "kickerow" for "Cicero".
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:15 PM on February 25, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:15 PM on February 25, 2018 [16 favorites]
Donna nobese pack'em!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:15 PM on February 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:15 PM on February 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
‘Benito Cerano’?
If you haven’t already or haven’t in the last ten years - if at all possible you should drop everything and go read it right now. (Novella, H.Melville - deeply twisted and problematic. Totally worth the effort.)
As was this.
posted by From Bklyn at 3:18 PM on February 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
If you haven’t already or haven’t in the last ten years - if at all possible you should drop everything and go read it right now. (Novella, H.Melville - deeply twisted and problematic. Totally worth the effort.)
As was this.
posted by From Bklyn at 3:18 PM on February 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
On the subject of vowel sounds, the ones from Spanish or Japanese are kind of canonically core in many lingusitic systems. Japanese does a great job of keeping its syllabary broken out by "ah", "ee", "ou", "eh", "oh".
There was someone I remember hearing on KPFA back in the 90s who had his own crackpot theory that the tetragrammaton was not meant to be an unspeakable name originally so much as an unspellable one. The Septuagint occasionally spells it entirely with Greek vowels, and Hebrew had no vowels! We say "yah-way" or whatever thinking we're so transgressive, but what if it was "EE AH OU EH", this man put it, and that was a sign of how the orthography of the Israelites could contain everything but their God's True Name?
I've heard more compelling arguments that it was actually a much cooler and more flexible orthography than we often give it credit, and a lot of the epithets and titles that get used can be found in it. I don't know where the pots crack on this topic and where they hold water, so don't take my perspective on any of this as anything beyond "wow, that's wild."
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:23 PM on February 25, 2018 [10 favorites]
There was someone I remember hearing on KPFA back in the 90s who had his own crackpot theory that the tetragrammaton was not meant to be an unspeakable name originally so much as an unspellable one. The Septuagint occasionally spells it entirely with Greek vowels, and Hebrew had no vowels! We say "yah-way" or whatever thinking we're so transgressive, but what if it was "EE AH OU EH", this man put it, and that was a sign of how the orthography of the Israelites could contain everything but their God's True Name?
I've heard more compelling arguments that it was actually a much cooler and more flexible orthography than we often give it credit, and a lot of the epithets and titles that get used can be found in it. I don't know where the pots crack on this topic and where they hold water, so don't take my perspective on any of this as anything beyond "wow, that's wild."
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:23 PM on February 25, 2018 [10 favorites]
That shows that the i is long, so it’s pronounced like [please say 'psych' please say 'psych' please say 'psych'] "seek" [dammit]
Really cool article. Of course I always think that when calques are mentioned, calques are my jam. Laissez les bons temps rouler!
posted by solotoro at 3:38 PM on February 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
Really cool article. Of course I always think that when calques are mentioned, calques are my jam. Laissez les bons temps rouler!
posted by solotoro at 3:38 PM on February 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
Look, if the I in sic is long, why isn't it pronounced psych?
Because that's not how a long "i" sounds in Latin?
posted by thelonius at 3:52 PM on February 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
Because that's not how a long "i" sounds in Latin?
posted by thelonius at 3:52 PM on February 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
Yeah, but if I was going to be pedantic about it, I’d have to pronounce all the Vs as W.
Weni. Widi. Wiki. has a weird feel to it.
posted by politikitty at 4:08 PM on February 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Weni. Widi. Wiki. has a weird feel to it.
posted by politikitty at 4:08 PM on February 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Super cool. I knew about Occitan, but I always assumed "oc" came from a Gallic language, not Latin.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 4:24 PM on February 25, 2018
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 4:24 PM on February 25, 2018
So I once had this pet theory... Apparently in the newsrooms of yore they used to mark false stories with "N.T." for "not true". Now if you pronounce that in German, it sounds like the word for duck, Ente. Which in turn, to this day, means both duck and an untrue story in a newspaper. So I was 100% convinced that that's where the word canard comes from -- English N.T. to German Ente, back to canard, maybe by way of Quebec or something.
Fun, but unfortunately a nanosecond of research, which I did at some point, shows that that use of the word canard predates the German Ente by like, several centuries. So my awesome theory of serial calquefication is a complete canard.
Anyway, at least it looks like this kind of thing does happen. Fuck oc! oil! or something
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 4:25 PM on February 25, 2018 [15 favorites]
Fun, but unfortunately a nanosecond of research, which I did at some point, shows that that use of the word canard predates the German Ente by like, several centuries. So my awesome theory of serial calquefication is a complete canard.
Anyway, at least it looks like this kind of thing does happen. Fuck oc! oil! or something
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 4:25 PM on February 25, 2018 [15 favorites]
Surely this
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:46 PM on February 25, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:46 PM on February 25, 2018 [9 favorites]
I believe I learned more in that post than I did in 2 years of high school Latin.
(To be fair to my high school teacher I must admit that my attention span has improved considerably over the past 45 years.)
posted by she's not there at 5:02 PM on February 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
(To be fair to my high school teacher I must admit that my attention span has improved considerably over the past 45 years.)
posted by she's not there at 5:02 PM on February 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
Weni. Widi. Wiki.
I came. I saw. I wrote a questionably-sourced article.
posted by cabbage raccoon at 5:29 PM on February 25, 2018 [44 favorites]
I came. I saw. I wrote a questionably-sourced article.
posted by cabbage raccoon at 5:29 PM on February 25, 2018 [44 favorites]
Look, if the I in sic is long, why isn't it pronounced psych?
Basically because when English speakers borrow from Latin, they ignore Latin vowel length. (Sometimes it matches up because of where we put the stress accent, but there are plenty of mismatches.)
posted by zompist at 6:07 PM on February 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
Basically because when English speakers borrow from Latin, they ignore Latin vowel length. (Sometimes it matches up because of where we put the stress accent, but there are plenty of mismatches.)
posted by zompist at 6:07 PM on February 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
I always remember "Sic" by telling myself it means "Spelling Is Cuoted"
posted by rebent at 6:21 PM on February 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by rebent at 6:21 PM on February 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
Apparently in the newsrooms of yore they used to mark false stories with "N.T." for "not true". Now if you pronounce that in German, it sounds like the word for duck, Ente. Which in turn, to this day, means both duck and an untrue story in a newspaper.
It also mean an untrue story in a German newspaper. How did that happen, one wonders.
Speaking of German ducks - Prince Clemens Wenceslaus of Saxony, a spritely man, tired of the custom of hot mocha to end the meal, ordered up a mixture of Riesling, Rhine wine, and champagne so he and guest could have a cold end to the evening. A Kalte Ende.
Fast forward to 1937 and Detroit wine merchant Harold Borgman, hoping to use up some leftover champagne before it goes flat decides to mix it with some still wine, cork it, and slap on the catchier (or misheard) name Kalte Ente, anglicized to - Cold Duck.
You can make your own. It's pretty nice in summer. Think Teutonic Sangria. You can drink it while listening to Les McCann
posted by BWA at 6:26 PM on February 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
It also mean an untrue story in a German newspaper. How did that happen, one wonders.
Speaking of German ducks - Prince Clemens Wenceslaus of Saxony, a spritely man, tired of the custom of hot mocha to end the meal, ordered up a mixture of Riesling, Rhine wine, and champagne so he and guest could have a cold end to the evening. A Kalte Ende.
Fast forward to 1937 and Detroit wine merchant Harold Borgman, hoping to use up some leftover champagne before it goes flat decides to mix it with some still wine, cork it, and slap on the catchier (or misheard) name Kalte Ente, anglicized to - Cold Duck.
You can make your own. It's pretty nice in summer. Think Teutonic Sangria. You can drink it while listening to Les McCann
posted by BWA at 6:26 PM on February 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
The linguist John McWhorter has a podcast, Lexicon Valley, which you will definitely like if you enjoyed this article. Before he started hosting it in 2016 there were a couple of other hosts, but I haven't binge-listened back that far yet. The episode about the word "no" also talks about "yes." There's more to "yes" and "no" than you think.
posted by selfmedicating at 6:57 PM on February 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by selfmedicating at 6:57 PM on February 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is also the origin of the name of the historic province in southern France, Languedoc ("language of 'oc' ").
posted by Chrysostom at 7:21 PM on February 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Chrysostom at 7:21 PM on February 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
Apparently in the newsrooms of yore they used to mark false stories with "N.T." for "not true". Now if you pronounce that in German, it sounds like the word for duck, Ente. Which in turn, to this day, means both duck and an untrue story in a newspaper.
Well this certainly complicates the Milkshake Duck metaphor.
posted by rhizome at 7:46 PM on February 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
Well this certainly complicates the Milkshake Duck metaphor.
posted by rhizome at 7:46 PM on February 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
That was a fun read. (I also realized I know very little about facial hair history, because I apparently never before saw the Dying Gaul's actual face or knew that Celts were known for mustaches. So, you know, very educational post for me in many ways!)
posted by mixedmetaphors at 8:24 PM on February 25, 2018
posted by mixedmetaphors at 8:24 PM on February 25, 2018
See, my mind was so blown by the following example:
I am now so full of rage about this latest example of sexism in our language that I'm afraid the rest of the whole "sic" thing just pales in comparison.
posted by Athanassiel at 10:06 PM on February 25, 2018 [22 favorites]
Ego: Num edisti totam pitam?In which I finally made the connection that if pudendus means "shameful", then pudendum must be something that causes shame, or something you should be ashamed of. I double-checked the etymology in the OED and yep, that is exactly what it means.
Tu, pudendus: Sic.
Me: Did you eat all the pizza?
You, shameful: That’s the way it is./Yes.
I am now so full of rage about this latest example of sexism in our language that I'm afraid the rest of the whole "sic" thing just pales in comparison.
posted by Athanassiel at 10:06 PM on February 25, 2018 [22 favorites]
Don’t we get to be descriptivist about Latin? Instead we’re so fussy about the inferred ‘correct’ pronunciation of high-status Romans in a particular period that we want to introduce diacritic markings? Eheu!
posted by Segundus at 10:58 PM on February 25, 2018
posted by Segundus at 10:58 PM on February 25, 2018
re: hoc / ille -> oc / oil: Don't Spanish speakers still say 'esoooo' like English speakers say 'yaaaas'?
When we sing Adeste Fideles every year around Christmas, I'm the lunatic gleefully grinning at my hard g's and soft v's.
posted by batter_my_heart at 12:40 AM on February 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
When we sing Adeste Fideles every year around Christmas, I'm the lunatic gleefully grinning at my hard g's and soft v's.
posted by batter_my_heart at 12:40 AM on February 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Look, if the I in sic is long, why isn't it pronounced psych? I like that better, anyway. Long I is not pronounced like a long E. I will go back to reading now, TYVM.
Because the vowel in psych is not a long anything, but a diphthong. Benito Cereno is actually speaking proper phonology. As someone who studied some phonology too, the way English non-specialists use "long" to mean "diphthong" and not actually "long" drives me batty.
posted by snakeling at 12:44 AM on February 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
Because the vowel in psych is not a long anything, but a diphthong. Benito Cereno is actually speaking proper phonology. As someone who studied some phonology too, the way English non-specialists use "long" to mean "diphthong" and not actually "long" drives me batty.
posted by snakeling at 12:44 AM on February 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
Yeah, eventually Francophones drop the -l from oil and start saying it as oui.
Wait - so it’s not from ouï, the past participle of the verb ouir, to hear, as in: I heard ya? (What other junk was I taught??)
posted by progosk at 1:06 AM on February 26, 2018
Wait - so it’s not from ouï, the past participle of the verb ouir, to hear, as in: I heard ya? (What other junk was I taught??)
posted by progosk at 1:06 AM on February 26, 2018
John McWhorter has a podcast?! This is extremely relevant to my interests! Thanks, selfmedicating!
"Weni, Widi, Wiki" reminds me of "the Latin phrase 'vi veri universum vivus vici' meaning, 'by the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe'". Which has this He-Man-as-philosopher kind of ring to it, for me.
I have now looked up Benito Cereno's work for The Grunge and am restricting myself to reading "Ancient prophecies that have come true" right now because I have work to do!....
posted by brainwane at 4:34 AM on February 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Weni, Widi, Wiki" reminds me of "the Latin phrase 'vi veri universum vivus vici' meaning, 'by the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe'". Which has this He-Man-as-philosopher kind of ring to it, for me.
I have now looked up Benito Cereno's work for The Grunge and am restricting myself to reading "Ancient prophecies that have come true" right now because I have work to do!....
posted by brainwane at 4:34 AM on February 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was just thinking about this in the car. Perhaps this explains the origin of okay? Also och aye? Come to think of it, okay could almost be pronounced as och aye -- perhaps that's where it comes from? (Okay, I know it's meant to be derived from Oll Korrect but… just saying.)
posted by popcassady at 6:34 AM on February 26, 2018
posted by popcassady at 6:34 AM on February 26, 2018
Weni. Widi. Wiki.
Ah, thank you for reminding me of the excellent 1066 and All That:
"Julius Caesar, having defeated the Ancient Britons by unfair means, such as battering rams, tortoises, hippo- causts, centipedes, axes and bundles, set that memorable Latin sentence, 'veni, vidi, vici,' which the Romans, who were all very well educated, construed correctly. The Britons, however, who of course still used the old pronunciation, understanding him to have called them 'Weeny, Weedy, and Weaky', lost heart and gave up the struggle, thinking that he had already divided them All into Three Parts."
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 7:46 AM on February 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Ah, thank you for reminding me of the excellent 1066 and All That:
"Julius Caesar, having defeated the Ancient Britons by unfair means, such as battering rams, tortoises, hippo- causts, centipedes, axes and bundles, set that memorable Latin sentence, 'veni, vidi, vici,' which the Romans, who were all very well educated, construed correctly. The Britons, however, who of course still used the old pronunciation, understanding him to have called them 'Weeny, Weedy, and Weaky', lost heart and gave up the struggle, thinking that he had already divided them All into Three Parts."
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 7:46 AM on February 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
In Spanish, Italian, Asturian, Catalan, Corsican, Galician, Friulian, and others, you say si for yes. In Portugese [sic] , you say sim.
You say the word which as written is "sim," yet which is pronounced.... "si."
(It's Portuguese...)
posted by chavenet at 8:02 AM on February 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
You say the word which as written is "sim," yet which is pronounced.... "si."
(It's Portuguese...)
posted by chavenet at 8:02 AM on February 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
popcassady: "(Okay, I know it's meant to be derived from Oll Korrect but… just saying.)"
Spurious derivations of OK are a long time tradition, so have at it.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:08 AM on February 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Spurious derivations of OK are a long time tradition, so have at it.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:08 AM on February 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
When I learned what sic meant in common usage, I decided it must be an acronym for "spelling is correct".
I always remember "Sic" by telling myself it means "Spelling Is Cuoted"
For me, it was "Spelling In Context."
posted by DrAstroZoom at 8:34 AM on February 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I always remember "Sic" by telling myself it means "Spelling Is Cuoted"
For me, it was "Spelling In Context."
posted by DrAstroZoom at 8:34 AM on February 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
When I learned what sic meant in common usage, I decided it must be an acronym for "spelling is correct".
I always remember "Sic" by telling myself it means "Spelling Is Cuoted"
For me, it was "Spelling In Context."
My third grade teacher told me it was "Spelling isn't changed" used to mean that the author of the article or book wasn't the one who used the wrong you're or didn't know how to spell Caribbean. She was a great teacher and I will continue to think of it that way in my head. I never bothered to look up the actual origin and somehow never put it with things like sic semper tyrannis so this was a fascinating read.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 8:47 AM on February 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I always remember "Sic" by telling myself it means "Spelling Is Cuoted"
For me, it was "Spelling In Context."
My third grade teacher told me it was "Spelling isn't changed" used to mean that the author of the article or book wasn't the one who used the wrong you're or didn't know how to spell Caribbean. She was a great teacher and I will continue to think of it that way in my head. I never bothered to look up the actual origin and somehow never put it with things like sic semper tyrannis so this was a fascinating read.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 8:47 AM on February 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Coincidentally, I have been meaning to look up the origin of oui for ages. Thanks for posting this!
posted by desuetude at 1:30 PM on February 26, 2018
posted by desuetude at 1:30 PM on February 26, 2018
Adding a little (sic) after a quote in journalism or essays was often denigrating words perceived as typos or imperfect spelling. In this context it was sometimes a kinda snobby rhetorical device used on quotations transcribed without the benefit of proof-reading, as a snob "sic-burn" (sorry). I haven't seen it much lately, but it was more common in the 20th century, and often parodied in 1950's-era Mad Magazine.
posted by ovvl at 5:52 PM on February 26, 2018
posted by ovvl at 5:52 PM on February 26, 2018
Not always imperfect spelling. It was used to point out that something in the previous quote was incorrect. Misnaming someone or conflating the names of countries could be opportunities to use sic in this way. Basically, "This, this right here, this is wrong. We will tell you why if is subtle but you should know. Ideally just by looking and thinking for a second that this is stupidly, obviously wrong."
Does it smack of arrogance? Yes. Now consider that this can be used as a way to point out that a politician or celebrity needs to think before they speak. It is a method of shaming public figures without having to overtly scold them. It also helps to keep everyone just a little more humble while justifying editorial review. Then again I am old and cranky at heart and think that a little castigation every now and again might not be such a bad thing.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 10:07 PM on February 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
Does it smack of arrogance? Yes. Now consider that this can be used as a way to point out that a politician or celebrity needs to think before they speak. It is a method of shaming public figures without having to overtly scold them. It also helps to keep everyone just a little more humble while justifying editorial review. Then again I am old and cranky at heart and think that a little castigation every now and again might not be such a bad thing.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 10:07 PM on February 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
I also have to imagine especially in the case of newspapers it's a way of saying "please don't write us to ask for a correction, we did not make this error and are just reporting the quote as it appeared in the original reference."
posted by solotoro at 6:05 AM on February 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by solotoro at 6:05 AM on February 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
I mean, that's the obvious explanation. But I guess we're on some deep anti-intellectual shit, so we're just gonna go with "snobbery" instead.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:09 AM on February 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 6:09 AM on February 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
My two new favorite Culture ship names:
ROU Old And Cranky At Heart
GCU A Little Castigation Every Now And Again Might Not Be Such A Bad Thing.
posted by ElGuapo at 6:05 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
ROU Old And Cranky At Heart
GCU A Little Castigation Every Now And Again Might Not Be Such A Bad Thing.
posted by ElGuapo at 6:05 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
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