BEC
March 28, 2018 9:14 AM Subscribe
Who Does She Think She Is? The internet does not hate women. The internet doesn’t hate anyone, because the internet, being an inanimate network, lacks the capacity to hold any opinion whatsoever. People hate women, and the internet allows them to do it faster, harder, and with impunity.
Something she quotes from the seventies:
posted by schadenfrau at 9:40 AM on March 28, 2018 [82 favorites]
Trashing is a particularly vicious form of character assassination… It is manipulative, dishonest, and excessive. It is occasionally disguised by the rhetoric of honest conflict, or covered up by denying that any disapproval exists at all. But it is not done to expose disagreements or resolve differences. It is done to disparage and destroy.And in Penny’s own words:
It took me many years to learn the most important distinguishing factor when trying to decide what criticism to take on board, once you’ve filtered and blocked for bots and fascists. It’s not about tone, and it’s not, for fuck’s sake, about Twitter. It’s about pleasure. Is somebody actively enjoying making you feel like shit? Is driving conscientious people to mental breakdown a really good time for them? Are they getting off on your pain? There’s a word for that, and it’s not “ally.”YUP. This doesn’t just come from the right, and it doesn’t just come from men, and it doesn’t just come from white people. Venting your anger or your disappointment or your powerlessness on women who are deemed acceptable targets to your peer group seems to be something universally enjoyed by all demographics. Abusing women to feel better when you feel bad is not the sort of feel good recognition of common humanity one hopes for, but it appears to be, you know, fucking accurate.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:40 AM on March 28, 2018 [82 favorites]
Right, I see that the response to Quinn Norton getting a opinion job at the NYT was rather different to the response to Kevin Williamson getting an opinion job at the Atlantic. It's not even vaguely a coincidence that the woman lost her job once her old racist and homophobic tweets came up, while the white man -- who called a black kid a primate and 3/5 Snoop Dogg, and who has called for all people who have had abortions (though, let's be real, he's also said enough vile transphobic shit that he believes only women can have abortions) to be hanged -- still has HIS job.
posted by jeather at 9:51 AM on March 28, 2018 [62 favorites]
posted by jeather at 9:51 AM on March 28, 2018 [62 favorites]
The Twitter reaction that I've seen has been equivalent though. Maybe it's not so much their genders but that racism and hating women is ok but Norton also used insults against white men.
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:00 AM on March 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:00 AM on March 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
this was really difficult reading: especially this:-
"Everyone knows that you get a lot of “grief,” and quite a few people seem to want to hear about it. They want to know how and when and with what implements you were told you would be raped to death. They want you to cry on television. They truly seem to enjoy hearing about it, although of course nobody they know would send this sort of abuse. The all-male documentary team gets huffy when you refuse to read out some of the “juiciest” sexist and anti-Semitic harassment that you have received lately. You are told that it needs to be dramatic to “change minds.” You are not being paid for your time. You stand up for yourself. The more excited they seem to be by the idea of these threats, the less you want to make a spectacle of your own victimhood. They like the idea of you being frightened on their segment. They don’t want you to be angry. You are asked to calm down. They exchange significant looks. You’re a problem now. You were always a problem. Maybe these online weirdos had a point."
a friend told me recently that a film crew from a national new programme wanted to interview her for her work on Obesity and genetics. She's a leading, internationally published expert, she leads a research team, but she entered the field having personal experience and having chosen to undergo metabolic surgery, often mis-categorised deliberately as weight loss surgery. Luckily her daughter works in the media and coached her beforehand....."they're going to focus this on you and your surgery..not your research, she said. They will offer you coffee and then have amazing cakes & croissants on hand, the messier to eat the better," she told her mother. They will shoot you when the camera is at a very low angle looking up at you.... and on and on and on.
Her mother scoffed, the University is ranked in the top 10 in the world and their Media department had coached her on the basis of her research, her team, the facilities etc.,
that news team pulled every dirty trick in the book as her daughter had warned. They didn't get their desired outcome. The University media team were perplexed, they said she's been cold and distant, not accepting that casual offer of breakfast....
You simply cannot be female+ anything and stand out in public without significantly more push-back than men get.
posted by Wilder at 10:09 AM on March 28, 2018 [121 favorites]
"Everyone knows that you get a lot of “grief,” and quite a few people seem to want to hear about it. They want to know how and when and with what implements you were told you would be raped to death. They want you to cry on television. They truly seem to enjoy hearing about it, although of course nobody they know would send this sort of abuse. The all-male documentary team gets huffy when you refuse to read out some of the “juiciest” sexist and anti-Semitic harassment that you have received lately. You are told that it needs to be dramatic to “change minds.” You are not being paid for your time. You stand up for yourself. The more excited they seem to be by the idea of these threats, the less you want to make a spectacle of your own victimhood. They like the idea of you being frightened on their segment. They don’t want you to be angry. You are asked to calm down. They exchange significant looks. You’re a problem now. You were always a problem. Maybe these online weirdos had a point."
a friend told me recently that a film crew from a national new programme wanted to interview her for her work on Obesity and genetics. She's a leading, internationally published expert, she leads a research team, but she entered the field having personal experience and having chosen to undergo metabolic surgery, often mis-categorised deliberately as weight loss surgery. Luckily her daughter works in the media and coached her beforehand....."they're going to focus this on you and your surgery..not your research, she said. They will offer you coffee and then have amazing cakes & croissants on hand, the messier to eat the better," she told her mother. They will shoot you when the camera is at a very low angle looking up at you.... and on and on and on.
Her mother scoffed, the University is ranked in the top 10 in the world and their Media department had coached her on the basis of her research, her team, the facilities etc.,
that news team pulled every dirty trick in the book as her daughter had warned. They didn't get their desired outcome. The University media team were perplexed, they said she's been cold and distant, not accepting that casual offer of breakfast....
You simply cannot be female+ anything and stand out in public without significantly more push-back than men get.
posted by Wilder at 10:09 AM on March 28, 2018 [121 favorites]
Maybe she'll finally start to realize that she has something in common with the second-wave feminists she's been so gleefully excoriating. Sister, you've made your case here eloquently, and we're here to help, but you need to stop bashing us and recognize that we are fighting a common enemy.
posted by filthy_prescriptivist at 10:10 AM on March 28, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by filthy_prescriptivist at 10:10 AM on March 28, 2018 [18 favorites]
I admit to being ageist when she hit out at second wave and "public feminists", Filthy_Prescriptivist, and thought..."ah she so young, she'll learn!" never for a moment would I wish this the learning.
posted by Wilder at 10:15 AM on March 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Wilder at 10:15 AM on March 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Maybe she'll finally start to realize that she has something in common with the second-wave feminists she's been so gleefully excoriating.
No matter what your views on Penny's opinions or conduct, I really don't find "I hope she's learned something from being abused" an appropriate response to this sort of piece.
posted by howfar at 10:20 AM on March 28, 2018 [46 favorites]
No matter what your views on Penny's opinions or conduct, I really don't find "I hope she's learned something from being abused" an appropriate response to this sort of piece.
posted by howfar at 10:20 AM on March 28, 2018 [46 favorites]
I don't think it's ageist to recognize a stage of development through which so many of us have gone. But I absolutely agree, that kind of learning is not something I'd wish on any young feminist, and my comment was motivated by sympathy rather than schadenfreude.
posted by filthy_prescriptivist at 10:21 AM on March 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by filthy_prescriptivist at 10:21 AM on March 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
Wilder, that story sounds like it deserves to be expanded into a FPP of its own.
posted by adamrice at 10:25 AM on March 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 10:25 AM on March 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
I’ve spoken with countless women who have been attacked, mobbed, and shamed for doing their jobs and living their lives, and without exception, all of them prefer the outright violence. [...] It is less insidious, less traumatic, than being trashed by your colleagues and peers: by the people you expected to have your back before you knew to watch it.
This is something that makes me reflect on my own experiences as a woman, and as a moderator on another community attempting to manage discussions about women.
By far, the hardest thing to deal with, both personally and as a moderator, isn't the blatant gender-based insults or trolling. Those are easy to identify and how to deal with them is clear cut: delete, ignore, ban. The volume of them can get you down, but you know that they don't have anything meaningful to say.
It's the attacks that can masquerade as stemming from legitimate criticism that get under my skin, and that are the hardest to deal with when moderating. Imagine you're a woman who instructs a college class and you make a mistake - something like telling your students the wrong due date for an assignment. You're also teaching a subject that you're really passionate about and sometimes you end up geeking out a little in class, sharing extra information that you think is particularly cool.
At the end of the semester, you get a bunch of student reviews taking you to task for being disorganized and "showing off" what you know. This really gets you down. You try hard to be a good instructor, but you keep fucking it up. You can't get your shit together and you come across as a know-it-all.
You decide to talk about this with your friends and you find out that some of the men make similar mistakes frequently and are much less organized than you. Some of them go off on tangents about things related to their expertise. Their students think they're fun and smart and the occasional slip isn't a big deal. None of them get this kind of feedback. They think it's bizarre that you have.
I used the example of teaching, but the thing about being a woman is that this heightened scrutiny - that sometimes catches real flaws - is basically the cost of doing anything public. When someone posts a female researcher's work to the community I moderate, we have to immediately be on guard so we can delete trolls, people commenting on her looks, and so on. But what do we do about the fact that she just faces much more heightened scrutiny compared to her male peers? That her questions, her methods, and her results are interrogated that much more thoroughly, and taken to reflect on her legitimacy as a researcher?
And it fucks with your confidence because you can't write it off as easily. Sometimes the criticism is valid. Sometimes the solution isn't to criticize you less, but to criticize men more. But the disproportionate amount of it, and how it is used to write you off entirely, ...
There's no good way to deal with it. You can't say that the student review was illegitimate because it focused on your looks; you actually did make a mistake that affected your classroom. You can't say that potential flaws in a female researcher's work aren't up for discussion. The only way to deal with it is to be perfect, and to not make mistakes, and no one can fucking do that.
It's really no wonder that so many girls and women have a crisis of self-confidence.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:30 AM on March 28, 2018 [169 favorites]
This is something that makes me reflect on my own experiences as a woman, and as a moderator on another community attempting to manage discussions about women.
By far, the hardest thing to deal with, both personally and as a moderator, isn't the blatant gender-based insults or trolling. Those are easy to identify and how to deal with them is clear cut: delete, ignore, ban. The volume of them can get you down, but you know that they don't have anything meaningful to say.
It's the attacks that can masquerade as stemming from legitimate criticism that get under my skin, and that are the hardest to deal with when moderating. Imagine you're a woman who instructs a college class and you make a mistake - something like telling your students the wrong due date for an assignment. You're also teaching a subject that you're really passionate about and sometimes you end up geeking out a little in class, sharing extra information that you think is particularly cool.
At the end of the semester, you get a bunch of student reviews taking you to task for being disorganized and "showing off" what you know. This really gets you down. You try hard to be a good instructor, but you keep fucking it up. You can't get your shit together and you come across as a know-it-all.
You decide to talk about this with your friends and you find out that some of the men make similar mistakes frequently and are much less organized than you. Some of them go off on tangents about things related to their expertise. Their students think they're fun and smart and the occasional slip isn't a big deal. None of them get this kind of feedback. They think it's bizarre that you have.
I used the example of teaching, but the thing about being a woman is that this heightened scrutiny - that sometimes catches real flaws - is basically the cost of doing anything public. When someone posts a female researcher's work to the community I moderate, we have to immediately be on guard so we can delete trolls, people commenting on her looks, and so on. But what do we do about the fact that she just faces much more heightened scrutiny compared to her male peers? That her questions, her methods, and her results are interrogated that much more thoroughly, and taken to reflect on her legitimacy as a researcher?
And it fucks with your confidence because you can't write it off as easily. Sometimes the criticism is valid. Sometimes the solution isn't to criticize you less, but to criticize men more. But the disproportionate amount of it, and how it is used to write you off entirely, ...
There's no good way to deal with it. You can't say that the student review was illegitimate because it focused on your looks; you actually did make a mistake that affected your classroom. You can't say that potential flaws in a female researcher's work aren't up for discussion. The only way to deal with it is to be perfect, and to not make mistakes, and no one can fucking do that.
It's really no wonder that so many girls and women have a crisis of self-confidence.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:30 AM on March 28, 2018 [169 favorites]
I don't think it's ageist to recognize a stage of development through which so many of us have gone.
yes. And the fact that so many of us have indeed gone through it really does show it for what it is, a tactic to disrupt feminism by convincing us that our older sisters can't possibly have anything worth learning from. Keep women reinventing the wheel every generation, that'll keep them busy!
Also, this:
Whoever you ask, it’s always someone else doing the real harassment — it’s those men over there who are violent and sexist, whereas our way of dealing with difficult women is reasonable and fair. It’s legitimate critique. They have overstepped and they owe us an answer, an apology. We are definitely not attacking her — or her, or her — because she is a woman with power and that makes us uncomfortable. No. That’s something those guys over there do.
is something I am going to print out and keep in business card format so I can start handing it out to men I know.
posted by Catseye at 11:03 AM on March 28, 2018 [21 favorites]
yes. And the fact that so many of us have indeed gone through it really does show it for what it is, a tactic to disrupt feminism by convincing us that our older sisters can't possibly have anything worth learning from. Keep women reinventing the wheel every generation, that'll keep them busy!
Also, this:
Whoever you ask, it’s always someone else doing the real harassment — it’s those men over there who are violent and sexist, whereas our way of dealing with difficult women is reasonable and fair. It’s legitimate critique. They have overstepped and they owe us an answer, an apology. We are definitely not attacking her — or her, or her — because she is a woman with power and that makes us uncomfortable. No. That’s something those guys over there do.
is something I am going to print out and keep in business card format so I can start handing it out to men I know.
posted by Catseye at 11:03 AM on March 28, 2018 [21 favorites]
I'm not sure Quinn Norton vs. Kevin Williamson is a good example to support the righteous and sadly correct points of Penny's article. The main difference is that the NYT backed down, while The Atlantic has not, despite lots of similar criticism of his hiring.
posted by PhineasGage at 11:08 AM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 11:08 AM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
The main difference is that the NYT backed down, while The Atlantic has not, despite lots of similar criticism of his hiring.
And why do you suppose that is? Why is Goldberg holding on and demanding we give Williamson a chance, when Bennett dropped Norton in 6 hours, even though she's a whole lot less toxic than he is?
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:18 AM on March 28, 2018 [28 favorites]
And why do you suppose that is? Why is Goldberg holding on and demanding we give Williamson a chance, when Bennett dropped Norton in 6 hours, even though she's a whole lot less toxic than he is?
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:18 AM on March 28, 2018 [28 favorites]
Maybe she'll finally start to realize that she has something in common with the second-wave feminists she's been so gleefully excoriating. Sister, you've made your case here eloquently, and we're here to help, but you need to stop bashing us and recognize that we are fighting a common enemy.
I don't think catering to TERFs and SWERFs is helpful for anybody.
posted by kmz at 11:44 AM on March 28, 2018 [17 favorites]
I don't think catering to TERFs and SWERFs is helpful for anybody.
posted by kmz at 11:44 AM on March 28, 2018 [17 favorites]
I'm actually afraid to read this article, because the comments here have hit me so painfully accurately--especially the pull quote from winna and comments from schadenfrau and Kutsuwamushi. I've been pushing back very hard at work on these particular topics lately, and it has been heartbreakingly rough going. I'm scared that if I read this article I'll start crying and not stop.
There's always a legitimate reason to criticize women. And there's always a reason that a woman's assessment of sexism is completely off base.
God, I'm tired.
posted by sciatrix at 11:50 AM on March 28, 2018 [28 favorites]
There's always a legitimate reason to criticize women. And there's always a reason that a woman's assessment of sexism is completely off base.
God, I'm tired.
posted by sciatrix at 11:50 AM on March 28, 2018 [28 favorites]
I don't think catering to TERFs and SWERFs is helpful for anybody.
Here, have a business card!
There are plenty of things to disagree with, vociferously even, in what various second-wave feminists have done and said. I certainly do myself. But there is also a great deal of good in there, and a great deal of analysis and activism which is extremely valuable to the situations we as women still face today. Writing off a whole generation of feminist thought as The Bad Women, the ones it's fine to sneer and and slur, the ones nobody has to listen to because ugh what do they know, is not helping.
posted by Catseye at 11:50 AM on March 28, 2018 [31 favorites]
Here, have a business card!
There are plenty of things to disagree with, vociferously even, in what various second-wave feminists have done and said. I certainly do myself. But there is also a great deal of good in there, and a great deal of analysis and activism which is extremely valuable to the situations we as women still face today. Writing off a whole generation of feminist thought as The Bad Women, the ones it's fine to sneer and and slur, the ones nobody has to listen to because ugh what do they know, is not helping.
posted by Catseye at 11:50 AM on March 28, 2018 [31 favorites]
similar criticism of his hiring
that's a good nutshell explanation of what the comparison reveals. because this is so much worse and in spite of that, it's treated as and the criticism is characterized as similar.
the basis for mobilizing against Norton was not primarily the slurs; it was that she was known to befriend people as hateful as Williamson and defended doing so. opposition didn't require believing that she was a person like him, simply that she was willing to call people like him friends. that was bad enough. "telling," everybody said.
and it is bad enough; she was an unserious, unqualified bigot-enabler and deliberately obtuse about the harm she excused and supported. she is not smart enough to handle a public platform. she deserved what happened.
but not only is WiIliamson worse than she is, The Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg is worse than she is. what he's doing to help and promote Williamson is beyond anything she did for any of her Nazi pals. Goldberg is the Norton-equivalent here. that's the parallel. he is the one that would have to lose his job in order to make the reactions equal. Williamson's something else, something well beyond. associating with men like him taints a woman beyond rehabilitation. but being a man like him carries no consequences.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:51 AM on March 28, 2018 [37 favorites]
that's a good nutshell explanation of what the comparison reveals. because this is so much worse and in spite of that, it's treated as and the criticism is characterized as similar.
the basis for mobilizing against Norton was not primarily the slurs; it was that she was known to befriend people as hateful as Williamson and defended doing so. opposition didn't require believing that she was a person like him, simply that she was willing to call people like him friends. that was bad enough. "telling," everybody said.
and it is bad enough; she was an unserious, unqualified bigot-enabler and deliberately obtuse about the harm she excused and supported. she is not smart enough to handle a public platform. she deserved what happened.
but not only is WiIliamson worse than she is, The Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg is worse than she is. what he's doing to help and promote Williamson is beyond anything she did for any of her Nazi pals. Goldberg is the Norton-equivalent here. that's the parallel. he is the one that would have to lose his job in order to make the reactions equal. Williamson's something else, something well beyond. associating with men like him taints a woman beyond rehabilitation. but being a man like him carries no consequences.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:51 AM on March 28, 2018 [37 favorites]
probably a significant portion of Metafilter members have participated in the "acceptable" kind of social media bullying of minor public figures, and had a great time doing it. posting clever insults about a "bad take" and riffing on each other and so on. I know I have, in the past.
when nice progressive people do this, people usually do go after some men along with the women, mostly nobody has sexism in mind, or uses gendered insults or threatens violence or anything like that. (except i suppose some of the anonymous trolls must be nice progressive Dr. Jekylls in their public personae.)
but, funnily enough, women get a lot more of this shit than men do, even from people who are supposedly "woke".
the word "toxic" is overused but i think that's what this kind of behavior is -- like a factory or something. it does something useful and beneficial for some people, and dumps out poison into the environment, which flows downstream to whoever is most vulnerable.
the author's point that you shouldn't trust the criticism of people who take pleasure in it is true. i think it goes the other way too -- if you find yourself really enjoying an attack on someone, probably restrain yourself.
posted by vogon_poet at 11:52 AM on March 28, 2018 [23 favorites]
when nice progressive people do this, people usually do go after some men along with the women, mostly nobody has sexism in mind, or uses gendered insults or threatens violence or anything like that. (except i suppose some of the anonymous trolls must be nice progressive Dr. Jekylls in their public personae.)
but, funnily enough, women get a lot more of this shit than men do, even from people who are supposedly "woke".
the word "toxic" is overused but i think that's what this kind of behavior is -- like a factory or something. it does something useful and beneficial for some people, and dumps out poison into the environment, which flows downstream to whoever is most vulnerable.
the author's point that you shouldn't trust the criticism of people who take pleasure in it is true. i think it goes the other way too -- if you find yourself really enjoying an attack on someone, probably restrain yourself.
posted by vogon_poet at 11:52 AM on March 28, 2018 [23 favorites]
Also: there are thoughts and focuses of second-wave feminism that are not trans-exclusionary. Radical feminism, less so. But, like--
Goddammit, if this thread turns into younger women calling out older women for their failures while older women tut at younger ones I swear to fuck I am going to scream at all of you. Trans women and cis women alike. We need to fucking listen to each other and build each other up.
posted by sciatrix at 11:52 AM on March 28, 2018 [45 favorites]
Goddammit, if this thread turns into younger women calling out older women for their failures while older women tut at younger ones I swear to fuck I am going to scream at all of you. Trans women and cis women alike. We need to fucking listen to each other and build each other up.
posted by sciatrix at 11:52 AM on March 28, 2018 [45 favorites]
or what Catseye said, less aggressively.
I am now going to go and wage another small act of warfare on my own fucking imposter syndrome as the people around me reinforce it again, and note at the same time that it's not just the extra criticism that women get--it's the reduced fucking praise. It's like dying of thirst at the same time as you're being smacked with little popper firecrackers--how do we avoid withering and dying under those circumstances?
posted by sciatrix at 11:57 AM on March 28, 2018 [22 favorites]
I am now going to go and wage another small act of warfare on my own fucking imposter syndrome as the people around me reinforce it again, and note at the same time that it's not just the extra criticism that women get--it's the reduced fucking praise. It's like dying of thirst at the same time as you're being smacked with little popper firecrackers--how do we avoid withering and dying under those circumstances?
posted by sciatrix at 11:57 AM on March 28, 2018 [22 favorites]
Kutsuwamushi this comment may just have in a small but significant way changed my life.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 12:09 PM on March 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by pretentious illiterate at 12:09 PM on March 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
As you’ve got older, you can’t tolerate a lot of the toxins you used to swallow a decade ago — including entitled male bullshit. You are tired, but no longer afraid. Instead, you are angrier than you could possibly have imagined.
As I was reading TFA I kept thinking how FUCKING ANGRY I am about this bullshit. And how nothing will change until enough men are also angry about it. And how that will probably never happen. And how tired I am to be banging my head against this wall.
Can't not do it but I am just. so. tired.
posted by twilightlost at 12:13 PM on March 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
As I was reading TFA I kept thinking how FUCKING ANGRY I am about this bullshit. And how nothing will change until enough men are also angry about it. And how that will probably never happen. And how tired I am to be banging my head against this wall.
Can't not do it but I am just. so. tired.
posted by twilightlost at 12:13 PM on March 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
This also reminds me of the old-style blogging FPP from a couple of days ago. I had a British politics/current events blog in the early days of such things (back when Bloggerheads was anonymous! He even linked to me a few times, I am still proud!). I wouldn’t have time for that now, but even if I did - there is no way I would write that kind of blog now. Couldn’t guarantee it would stay anonymous, couldn’t deal with the inevitable barrage of hate if it didn’t.
posted by Catseye at 12:18 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 12:18 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
But there is also a great deal of good in there, and a great deal of analysis and activism which is extremely valuable to the situations we as women still face today.
I regret my first comment because I should have just stayed out of it, but I do absolutely agree with this. I just think the linked article was a terrible example. It's literally SWERFy, and a quick glance at the sidebar leads to an article written late last year by the same author that's grotesquely transphobic.
posted by kmz at 12:29 PM on March 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
I regret my first comment because I should have just stayed out of it, but I do absolutely agree with this. I just think the linked article was a terrible example. It's literally SWERFy, and a quick glance at the sidebar leads to an article written late last year by the same author that's grotesquely transphobic.
posted by kmz at 12:29 PM on March 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
Well, you say “literally SWERFy”, I say “there are multiple complex and nuanced feminist takes on the sex industry and the power dynamics inherent within”, tomato, tomahto. Point is, it is not supporting Laurie Penny’s point about how women are treated on the internet to say “ah but this OTHER woman, she’s definitely awful and should be dismissed out of hand.”
posted by Catseye at 12:35 PM on March 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 12:35 PM on March 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Mod note: In case this is in the back of anybody's mind, this thread will not become a place to advance an anti-trans agenda or whatever is bubbling in the background there. Consider this is a warning.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:38 PM on March 28, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:38 PM on March 28, 2018 [17 favorites]
The only way to deal with it is to be perfect, and to not make mistakes, and no one can fucking do that.
I have issues surrounding my own career success due to this. First, I'm like a goddamn fucking poster child for perfectionism. But, I grew up drowning in toxic misogyny. Nothing was ever good enough for my family. Nothing. Not a single thing. I broke records at our high school for the number of awards won. Our principal phoned my parents to ask them how to decide which teacher would sponsor me at a dinner because all my teachers wanted to sponsor me. It was that bad. I'm not bragging, I'm a woman, no one gives a fuck about women braggarts and I know that.
So what happens when you go home to an abusive family who doesn't give a shit that you earned university credits for calculus, French, US history, English and chemistry while still in high school and have been accepted directly into third-year university courses?
In my case it was learning a vicious give no fucks. It comes across here on MeFi. I give zero fucking fucks. Easier said than done, which is why the issues. What does it entail?
It means that at work, I don't give a flying fuck about the assholes leering at me and calling me an idiot. Does it affect my career? Sometimes. I don't give a damn about the dumbass takedowns of my terrible sense of humor. Someone tells me loudly, in front of a 40-person open space, that I'm too sensitive and taking my job too seriously and sit down and shut up? I don't shut up, I talk louder. "She's so ANGRY!" Key point: I talk louder about facts. Never judgements. Never subjectivity. Clear, actionable goals. I make mistakes, I own up to them. "Omigod LOL she is so stinking dumb. She even says so herself!" Yeah, that's it, the woman who speaks two languages fluently in front of you every day and who managed to get hired at the same place you did but without the degree or connections you have is very definitely stupid.
Inevitably. INEVITABLY. They have taken so many liberties, put so much weight onto their dumb lulz, that it comes crashing down around them. And that is why I never challenge it (apart from facts and actionable goals), because I want them to put all their bullshit onto one plate. It's happening [mumble removed specifics]. Two fucking hundred people giving lulz about my boss (who's a foreigner) and me (the only woman in a consultant director role). They thought we were so fucking dumb that they never took us seriously, so we let them, and every time they dropped the ball, we quietly picked it up and very quietly used it.
Guys. We ended up with all the balls. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen this happen. It's been more than a decade now, and I keep getting promoted, and the people who lol at women? They don't. No really. It starts getting pretty consistent across companies. I've not seen many exceptions. People closed-minded and weak enough to lol at half of humanity are inevitably crap at anything above middle management roles. (Yes of course there are exceptions, especially in toxic situations – been in those – and smaller companies. Not denying anything, trying to give a ray of hope here. Don't mind me, I have a painfully dry approach to things.)
That's how I handle it. Someone lol-wimmins at me, I smile and keep creating a beautiful life – one that builds up others as well, we didn't succeed alone – while they swim in their puny plastic pool of weak-sauce unoriginal BS that will never, and I do mean NEVER, make them happier. Do they earn money and generally have visible signs of success? Maybe. Do they have healthy souls? Definitely nope. Is that an excuse for them to be assholes? That's not the point I want to make – the point I want to make is, these people doing this are poisoning their own lives too, and the more that gets drily pointed out as a fact, which it is, well, maybe that will act as motivation too. They get jollies from sniping at me? Enjoy your jollies deary-boos! Doesn't change an iota of my life, because it's mine, I made it, not them.
NOT VERY BECOMING OF A WOMAN TO TALK LIKE THAT IS IT.
Privilege? Yeah, that I literally almost died of misogynistic abuse from, and I share the privilege I earned. I also give no fucks about anyone not a friend who thinks they can judge that, because if you don't know me in person, you can't. (Friends can and do.) Sorry not sorry. STILL NOT VERY DELICATE OF ME EH. excuse me while i go pet my cats.
posted by fraula at 12:43 PM on March 28, 2018 [99 favorites]
I have issues surrounding my own career success due to this. First, I'm like a goddamn fucking poster child for perfectionism. But, I grew up drowning in toxic misogyny. Nothing was ever good enough for my family. Nothing. Not a single thing. I broke records at our high school for the number of awards won. Our principal phoned my parents to ask them how to decide which teacher would sponsor me at a dinner because all my teachers wanted to sponsor me. It was that bad. I'm not bragging, I'm a woman, no one gives a fuck about women braggarts and I know that.
So what happens when you go home to an abusive family who doesn't give a shit that you earned university credits for calculus, French, US history, English and chemistry while still in high school and have been accepted directly into third-year university courses?
In my case it was learning a vicious give no fucks. It comes across here on MeFi. I give zero fucking fucks. Easier said than done, which is why the issues. What does it entail?
It means that at work, I don't give a flying fuck about the assholes leering at me and calling me an idiot. Does it affect my career? Sometimes. I don't give a damn about the dumbass takedowns of my terrible sense of humor. Someone tells me loudly, in front of a 40-person open space, that I'm too sensitive and taking my job too seriously and sit down and shut up? I don't shut up, I talk louder. "She's so ANGRY!" Key point: I talk louder about facts. Never judgements. Never subjectivity. Clear, actionable goals. I make mistakes, I own up to them. "Omigod LOL she is so stinking dumb. She even says so herself!" Yeah, that's it, the woman who speaks two languages fluently in front of you every day and who managed to get hired at the same place you did but without the degree or connections you have is very definitely stupid.
Inevitably. INEVITABLY. They have taken so many liberties, put so much weight onto their dumb lulz, that it comes crashing down around them. And that is why I never challenge it (apart from facts and actionable goals), because I want them to put all their bullshit onto one plate. It's happening [mumble removed specifics]. Two fucking hundred people giving lulz about my boss (who's a foreigner) and me (the only woman in a consultant director role). They thought we were so fucking dumb that they never took us seriously, so we let them, and every time they dropped the ball, we quietly picked it up and very quietly used it.
Guys. We ended up with all the balls. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen this happen. It's been more than a decade now, and I keep getting promoted, and the people who lol at women? They don't. No really. It starts getting pretty consistent across companies. I've not seen many exceptions. People closed-minded and weak enough to lol at half of humanity are inevitably crap at anything above middle management roles. (Yes of course there are exceptions, especially in toxic situations – been in those – and smaller companies. Not denying anything, trying to give a ray of hope here. Don't mind me, I have a painfully dry approach to things.)
That's how I handle it. Someone lol-wimmins at me, I smile and keep creating a beautiful life – one that builds up others as well, we didn't succeed alone – while they swim in their puny plastic pool of weak-sauce unoriginal BS that will never, and I do mean NEVER, make them happier. Do they earn money and generally have visible signs of success? Maybe. Do they have healthy souls? Definitely nope. Is that an excuse for them to be assholes? That's not the point I want to make – the point I want to make is, these people doing this are poisoning their own lives too, and the more that gets drily pointed out as a fact, which it is, well, maybe that will act as motivation too. They get jollies from sniping at me? Enjoy your jollies deary-boos! Doesn't change an iota of my life, because it's mine, I made it, not them.
NOT VERY BECOMING OF A WOMAN TO TALK LIKE THAT IS IT.
Privilege? Yeah, that I literally almost died of misogynistic abuse from, and I share the privilege I earned. I also give no fucks about anyone not a friend who thinks they can judge that, because if you don't know me in person, you can't. (Friends can and do.) Sorry not sorry. STILL NOT VERY DELICATE OF ME EH. excuse me while i go pet my cats.
posted by fraula at 12:43 PM on March 28, 2018 [99 favorites]
Great article, thank you. I'll quibble on the statement that the internet doesn't hate women. The designers of Web 2.0 acted on libertarian moral imperatives that ignored or enhanced already known problems of bias. So we're stuck with systems that provide minimal tools for reducing systemic bias or protecting women from harassment.
It doesn't have to be this way. There are technical systems that enforce norms such as turn-taking, prevent pile-ons, and give users strong filtering options for blocking harassment. They're just not used outside of educational applications.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:22 PM on March 28, 2018 [18 favorites]
It doesn't have to be this way. There are technical systems that enforce norms such as turn-taking, prevent pile-ons, and give users strong filtering options for blocking harassment. They're just not used outside of educational applications.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:22 PM on March 28, 2018 [18 favorites]
Regardless of Penny's background, as an isolated article this is really well written. I especially appreciated this passage:
Is somebody actively enjoying making you feel like shit? Is driving conscientious people to mental breakdown a really good time for them? Are they getting off on your pain? There’s a word for that, and it’s not “ally.”
I've been on both sides of this and the joy that comes from it is short-lived and pathological. I wonder if there are things that can actually be done to make this kind of thing less fun, but then I realize that Twitter was literally designed to make this as easy and satisfying as possible.
posted by JZig at 2:36 PM on March 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Is somebody actively enjoying making you feel like shit? Is driving conscientious people to mental breakdown a really good time for them? Are they getting off on your pain? There’s a word for that, and it’s not “ally.”
I've been on both sides of this and the joy that comes from it is short-lived and pathological. I wonder if there are things that can actually be done to make this kind of thing less fun, but then I realize that Twitter was literally designed to make this as easy and satisfying as possible.
posted by JZig at 2:36 PM on March 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
The price women pay for these sort of experiences that men rarely have (or have in smaller volumes) is frustrating and has real consequences. I get frustrated when I compare my productivity and work to men in the same field I know who are much more productive than me. Some of it is undoubtedly because they have a stronger work ethic than I do. But some of it is also because they can do things like fieldwork with their whole brain. They're not holding a piece back to shut down sexual comments from the men they work for, make sure they are safe, or analyze the content of that maybe innocently off color but maybe not comment from a collaborator. They're not sitting down to write after reading an article about violence perpetrated by other scientists against their gender. They're never being told they're too angry, or too serious, or too bossy, or too silly, or asked to organize social gatherings. They just get to do their research, while thinking about their research, and then publish about it and receive accolades for it.
posted by ChuraChura at 4:27 PM on March 28, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 4:27 PM on March 28, 2018 [30 favorites]
Virginia Woolf, A Room of One's Own (1929): "What genius, what integrity it must have required in face of all that criticism, in the midst of that purely patriarchal society, to hold fast to the thing as they saw it without shrinking. Only Jane Austen did it and Emily Brontë. ...Of all the thousand women who wrote novels then, they alone entirely ignored the perpetual admonitions of the eternal pedagogue—write this, think that. They alone were deaf to that persistent voice, now grumbling, now patronizing, now domineering, now grieved, now shocked, now angry, now avuncular, that voice which cannot let women alone, but must be at them, like some too-conscientious governess, adjuring them, like Sir Egerton Brydges, to be refined; dragging even into the criticism of poetry criticism of sex; admonishing them, if they would be good and win, as I suppose, some shiny prize, to keep within certain limits which the gentleman in question thinks suitable —’"
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:47 PM on March 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:47 PM on March 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
Frictionless hate.
And while I love blondie “rip her to shreds” is an absolutely shit awful song.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:04 PM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
And while I love blondie “rip her to shreds” is an absolutely shit awful song.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:04 PM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
“Women who have succeeded too well at becoming visible,” writes Sady Doyle in her barnstorming book Trainwreck, “have always been penalized vigilantly and forcefully, and turned into spectacles.”
I think a lot about the concept of visibility. The imperative is to be visible enough that people notice your achievements, and sometimes that means going out of your way to promote your own achievements, lest people not notice them at all. Yet if you're too visible, even when part of your job is to be visible, it's very easy to get criticized for spending too much time doing the things that make you visible and not enough time buckling down or whatever, even if you're really putting in exhausting hours of labor to make sure to do both. Because we always have to do both, because you know if you do something that makes you visible but have even the slightest difficulty delivering on your obligations while doing so, you'll be punished all the more harshly for focusing on the wrong things, because everyone saw you. "Just look at her over there doing all the wrong things" is the basic message. You're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
It doesn't matter that it all takes work and that energy has to come from somewhere—individual energy and time management is your own problem, not theirs. (I start to get twitchy when I notice that particular cop-out from any manager who refuses to manage or actively state any of this, just wages passive-aggressive campaigns against the work that makes women visible.) Match that with scrutinizing your every move and calling you out for any deviation, perhaps throwing in a dash of men paraphrasing you in an imitation of active listening while not actually hearing you at all, and it can be hard to find motivation to put in all that extra time. You have to remind yourself it's not for them or about them. The point is for you to get stronger and better and lead your only life the way you see fit. (Just imagine how much energy we could devote to exactly that if we didn't have to spend so much time dealing with these issues!)
fraula, I love the way you described this. I grew up the same way, and I think about that a lot, too. I suspect myself of both having too high of standards for myself as a result and yet never having high-enough standards. I also suspect myself of tending to be a bit reactionary toward authority as a result of those sorts of family dynamics—and yet that just makes it harder for me to believe myself when I feel something or notice issues. I discount my own experiences too much. I didn't really learn to give no fucks, or any approximation thereof, until I aged out of believing feminism wasn't for me, until I was no longer the ingénue without obligations who robotically worked endless hours without complaint or issue, until I had to learn the hard way why feminism was important and relevant to my life. But I'm still afraid to really live that. I try to think about what my most brash male colleagues would do and follow that path when I can, but as this article gets at, that doesn't always work. The same phrasing that earns a man praise or at worst minimal side-eye will get a woman crucified.
This also makes me think about the ways women often rule ourselves out before others can—we don't apply to things unless we have all the qualifications and then some, and we follow the rules and procedures and answer every question, and we even ask the difficult questions that might lead to us not getting what we want after all, because we want to be seen as professionals and team players, and we don't want to be singled out. But we're not even playing the same game, because meanwhile, men often route past all of that and find other pathways to get what they want. I can't think about it too much or I'm going to get angry, and we all know how scary an angry woman can be.
That childlike belief in a natural limit to human malice is perhaps the most tenuous thread of privilege, because I can’t help noticing how many of those who have lived through years of abuse and still hold it are middle-class white girls, like me.
It’s not that working-class women, or women of color of any class, are trashed and abused any less — quite the opposite. There is, however, less of an expectation that the world at large will care. Black women in particular are required to perform strength in the face of treatment nobody should have to be strong enough to endure.
Every part of this sucks. I don't know what else to say about it. I identified with it from the white-girl perspective, and I hate it from every perspective.
Any woman who does something extraordinary or unusual in the public eye can now expect harassment
Or to be excessively scrutinized, then let go on scant justification, because the actual issue is being too visible, too vocal, too threatening, too whatever. Fuck. I know too much about how that works, and yeah, I have some of my own PTSD from it. It's so hard to keep the fear of that at bay while trying to remain visible, vocal, active, and engaged in the work that matters, whatever it might be.
I want to go curl up in a ball now, but I'm actually going to go do some more work, because see above.
posted by limeonaire at 8:14 PM on March 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
I think a lot about the concept of visibility. The imperative is to be visible enough that people notice your achievements, and sometimes that means going out of your way to promote your own achievements, lest people not notice them at all. Yet if you're too visible, even when part of your job is to be visible, it's very easy to get criticized for spending too much time doing the things that make you visible and not enough time buckling down or whatever, even if you're really putting in exhausting hours of labor to make sure to do both. Because we always have to do both, because you know if you do something that makes you visible but have even the slightest difficulty delivering on your obligations while doing so, you'll be punished all the more harshly for focusing on the wrong things, because everyone saw you. "Just look at her over there doing all the wrong things" is the basic message. You're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
It doesn't matter that it all takes work and that energy has to come from somewhere—individual energy and time management is your own problem, not theirs. (I start to get twitchy when I notice that particular cop-out from any manager who refuses to manage or actively state any of this, just wages passive-aggressive campaigns against the work that makes women visible.) Match that with scrutinizing your every move and calling you out for any deviation, perhaps throwing in a dash of men paraphrasing you in an imitation of active listening while not actually hearing you at all, and it can be hard to find motivation to put in all that extra time. You have to remind yourself it's not for them or about them. The point is for you to get stronger and better and lead your only life the way you see fit. (Just imagine how much energy we could devote to exactly that if we didn't have to spend so much time dealing with these issues!)
fraula, I love the way you described this. I grew up the same way, and I think about that a lot, too. I suspect myself of both having too high of standards for myself as a result and yet never having high-enough standards. I also suspect myself of tending to be a bit reactionary toward authority as a result of those sorts of family dynamics—and yet that just makes it harder for me to believe myself when I feel something or notice issues. I discount my own experiences too much. I didn't really learn to give no fucks, or any approximation thereof, until I aged out of believing feminism wasn't for me, until I was no longer the ingénue without obligations who robotically worked endless hours without complaint or issue, until I had to learn the hard way why feminism was important and relevant to my life. But I'm still afraid to really live that. I try to think about what my most brash male colleagues would do and follow that path when I can, but as this article gets at, that doesn't always work. The same phrasing that earns a man praise or at worst minimal side-eye will get a woman crucified.
This also makes me think about the ways women often rule ourselves out before others can—we don't apply to things unless we have all the qualifications and then some, and we follow the rules and procedures and answer every question, and we even ask the difficult questions that might lead to us not getting what we want after all, because we want to be seen as professionals and team players, and we don't want to be singled out. But we're not even playing the same game, because meanwhile, men often route past all of that and find other pathways to get what they want. I can't think about it too much or I'm going to get angry, and we all know how scary an angry woman can be.
That childlike belief in a natural limit to human malice is perhaps the most tenuous thread of privilege, because I can’t help noticing how many of those who have lived through years of abuse and still hold it are middle-class white girls, like me.
It’s not that working-class women, or women of color of any class, are trashed and abused any less — quite the opposite. There is, however, less of an expectation that the world at large will care. Black women in particular are required to perform strength in the face of treatment nobody should have to be strong enough to endure.
Every part of this sucks. I don't know what else to say about it. I identified with it from the white-girl perspective, and I hate it from every perspective.
Any woman who does something extraordinary or unusual in the public eye can now expect harassment
Or to be excessively scrutinized, then let go on scant justification, because the actual issue is being too visible, too vocal, too threatening, too whatever. Fuck. I know too much about how that works, and yeah, I have some of my own PTSD from it. It's so hard to keep the fear of that at bay while trying to remain visible, vocal, active, and engaged in the work that matters, whatever it might be.
I want to go curl up in a ball now, but I'm actually going to go do some more work, because see above.
posted by limeonaire at 8:14 PM on March 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
I should also say, I have this train of thought riding alongside this, as I turn this all around in my head from the perspective of being genderqueer and perhaps ultimately only 50 percent woman mentally anyway, though I'm a woman by birth and physically present as a woman, that I have trouble putting into words. I've only in the last few years really even begun to come to terms with and square up that identity with all of the above. Those issues are still obviously just as real for me as for any other woman, but then there's that whole other layer of incongruity. 'Cause even as I am dealing with all of this and have been socialized in these ways as a result of the body I live in and how I identify, I think there are things in my mannerisms, in the way people on forums who only read my pseudonymous, androgynous words assume I'm a man by default, that perhaps give me a slight edge at times. I suspect that's one reason why Slack is democratizing, because like this site, it foregrounds raw text to a large extent and to some degree seems to normalize communication patterns across genders (e.g., it's not only women using emojis and exclamation marks all the time, at least not in the Slacks I'm in). But then there's that avatar, there's my traditionally female name, and any advantages conferred by the medium can be outweighed in an instant by the damage caused by the usual misogyny. People suck. But there's a little color on the train of thought above.
posted by limeonaire at 8:41 PM on March 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 8:41 PM on March 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
fraula, I think you have been lucky. Good, yes, but also lucky.
One of my sisters-in-law is in finance. She's quite talented, but even more, well, more-ish than I am--yet nothing on the normal scale of men in finance. She mostly acts as if those constraints don't exist, either. Over the past decade, I've watched three different jobs go to pieces on her, because the men around her and above her can't deal with her. She's talented enough to have landed a solid new job each time she left, but you only need a handful of men in the right positions who can't deal before you find yourself being ushered out.
posted by praemunire at 8:54 PM on March 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
One of my sisters-in-law is in finance. She's quite talented, but even more, well, more-ish than I am--yet nothing on the normal scale of men in finance. She mostly acts as if those constraints don't exist, either. Over the past decade, I've watched three different jobs go to pieces on her, because the men around her and above her can't deal with her. She's talented enough to have landed a solid new job each time she left, but you only need a handful of men in the right positions who can't deal before you find yourself being ushered out.
posted by praemunire at 8:54 PM on March 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
(I use gender-neutral pseudonyms in all but one particular class of social forums, and I am mistaken for a dude in early appearances about 95% of the time.)
posted by praemunire at 8:56 PM on March 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 8:56 PM on March 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
I’m watching my 20 year career in tech slowly crash and burn in front of me because I dare to be a visible trans woman but hey I’m glad I was able to parlay those early years of “dude visible” privilege into something that carried me this far.
I guess I should be grateful for whatever access to the capital machine my “read as a dude” access to privilege gained me. Furthermore I should be glad I’ve at least got some air brakes from that 15 years of being read as a “most likely gay guy” to slow my career descent across the autumnal years of my career trajectory.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:42 PM on March 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
I guess I should be grateful for whatever access to the capital machine my “read as a dude” access to privilege gained me. Furthermore I should be glad I’ve at least got some air brakes from that 15 years of being read as a “most likely gay guy” to slow my career descent across the autumnal years of my career trajectory.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:42 PM on March 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Ever since I got invited to give a talk at a very big name three letter conference which you've all heard the talk videos from, the daily anonymous hate machine is grinding me down. This thread just makes me want to cry in a fetal ball.
posted by infini at 3:09 AM on March 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by infini at 3:09 AM on March 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
Only Jane Austen did it and Emily Brontë. ...Of all the thousand women who wrote novels then, they alone entirely ignored the perpetual admonitions of the eternal pedagogue—write this, think that.
Except that they weren't the only ones -- there were dozens of other female writers at the time (read Northanger Abbey if you want Austen herself to mention a handful of them). But the thing about attacking women is that it doesn't end when they're dead -- even the most prominent female writers get attacked repeatedly and then eventually dismissed.
We hold women to higher standards, both before their deaths and after. And afterwards, we also trivialize their accomplishments -- witness (even in this thread!) the ways that "second wave feminism" gets dismissed as TERF-ness, even as the real battles that second wave feminism fought (job discrimination, sexual harassment, etc.) are forgotten or dismissed because what they fought for failed. (We nearly had nationalized childcare in the 1970s.)
posted by steady-state strawberry at 4:18 AM on March 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
Except that they weren't the only ones -- there were dozens of other female writers at the time (read Northanger Abbey if you want Austen herself to mention a handful of them). But the thing about attacking women is that it doesn't end when they're dead -- even the most prominent female writers get attacked repeatedly and then eventually dismissed.
We hold women to higher standards, both before their deaths and after. And afterwards, we also trivialize their accomplishments -- witness (even in this thread!) the ways that "second wave feminism" gets dismissed as TERF-ness, even as the real battles that second wave feminism fought (job discrimination, sexual harassment, etc.) are forgotten or dismissed because what they fought for failed. (We nearly had nationalized childcare in the 1970s.)
posted by steady-state strawberry at 4:18 AM on March 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
Except that they weren't the only ones -- there were dozens of other female writers at the time (read Northanger Abbey if you want Austen herself to mention a handful of them). But the thing about attacking women is that it doesn't end when they're dead -- even the most prominent female writers get attacked repeatedly and then eventually dismissed.
Good lord yes. The amount of 'hurf durf chick lit' and 'lol token woman' in fucking college-level classes on British literature. The pervasive cultural treatment of Bronte and Austen as the Twilight of their time, and the pervasive focus on complex female characters as just mooning over Darcy or Heathcliff. Fuck!
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:59 AM on March 29, 2018 [16 favorites]
Good lord yes. The amount of 'hurf durf chick lit' and 'lol token woman' in fucking college-level classes on British literature. The pervasive cultural treatment of Bronte and Austen as the Twilight of their time, and the pervasive focus on complex female characters as just mooning over Darcy or Heathcliff. Fuck!
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:59 AM on March 29, 2018 [16 favorites]
fraula, I think you have been lucky. Good, yes, but also lucky.
In my experience, an ally — even just one — makes all the difference in the world. As long as they don’t sell you out.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:03 AM on March 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
In my experience, an ally — even just one — makes all the difference in the world. As long as they don’t sell you out.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:03 AM on March 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Another thing that's incredibly infuriating is the paternalistic dismissal of women who don't manage to make their way onto the "big stage" as "oh, well, they must not have been that talented or hard-working or willing enough to make the kinds of sacrifices necessary to break through." No, they just weren't willing to keep swimming through a sea of rabid piranhas. Or maybe they wanted to have fun every now and then or to have a family or just live a life in which they wouldn't be savaged for daring to excel while female.
posted by dancing_angel at 4:40 PM on March 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by dancing_angel at 4:40 PM on March 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
In my experience, an ally — even just one — makes all the difference in the world. As long as they don’t sell you out.
This is also my experience. I don't think I'd be where I am without a few specific people who have made it their business to cheer me on whenever they can.
posted by sciatrix at 4:49 PM on March 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
This is also my experience. I don't think I'd be where I am without a few specific people who have made it their business to cheer me on whenever they can.
posted by sciatrix at 4:49 PM on March 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
This also makes me think about the ways women often rule ourselves out before others can—we don't apply to things unless we have all the qualifications and then some,
Of course not. We can't get hired if we have the confidence of a mediocre white man. We have to prove we're a billion times better than the best man to get hired. You're damned right I don't apply unless I've got almost every credential, I won't get interviewed otherwise.
I know enough artists, writers, activists, and musicians who have been scared away from putting their work into the world,
*raises hand slightly, then lowers it, shrinks down and craws under the bed forever*
Seriously, I just don't know how you deal with being hated and death threatted and doxxed for life if anyone sees you being female in public. HOW is anyone supposed to?
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:23 PM on March 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
Of course not. We can't get hired if we have the confidence of a mediocre white man. We have to prove we're a billion times better than the best man to get hired. You're damned right I don't apply unless I've got almost every credential, I won't get interviewed otherwise.
I know enough artists, writers, activists, and musicians who have been scared away from putting their work into the world,
*raises hand slightly, then lowers it, shrinks down and craws under the bed forever*
Seriously, I just don't know how you deal with being hated and death threatted and doxxed for life if anyone sees you being female in public. HOW is anyone supposed to?
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:23 PM on March 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
Also, I hope NO feminist voices ever shut up. That buys in to the unspoken paradigm that there's plenty of room for men of all ages, but only so much room for women and female-appearing people, and we therefore need to fight each other over the scant minutes we get.
Piffle. No one tells Bernie or Joe Biden to get offstage so Joe Kennedy can speak. There's room for all of them. There needs to be room for all of us, too.
As a Gen Xer, I grew up hearing the stories from my Baby Boomer, Silent Generation, and Greatest Generation mentors. They shared with me what it had been like, the battles they fought, some won, some lost; and told me of their hopes for the future.
Now that I'm edging into middle age, I love the passion and intensity of the millennials and post-millennials. I love hearing their stories, am delighted when they don't have to re-fight the battles we did, and can't wait to see how your hopes and dreams and successes will unfold and move the needle still further.
Let's not limit women's voices. Let's demand a bigger stage and more time so we all can be heard.
posted by dancing_angel at 10:41 PM on March 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
Piffle. No one tells Bernie or Joe Biden to get offstage so Joe Kennedy can speak. There's room for all of them. There needs to be room for all of us, too.
As a Gen Xer, I grew up hearing the stories from my Baby Boomer, Silent Generation, and Greatest Generation mentors. They shared with me what it had been like, the battles they fought, some won, some lost; and told me of their hopes for the future.
Now that I'm edging into middle age, I love the passion and intensity of the millennials and post-millennials. I love hearing their stories, am delighted when they don't have to re-fight the battles we did, and can't wait to see how your hopes and dreams and successes will unfold and move the needle still further.
Let's not limit women's voices. Let's demand a bigger stage and more time so we all can be heard.
posted by dancing_angel at 10:41 PM on March 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
Also, I hope NO feminist voices ever shut up. That buys in to the unspoken paradigm that there's plenty of room for men of all ages, but only so much room for women and female-appearing people, and we therefore need to fight each other over the scant minutes we get.
Piffle. No one tells Bernie or Joe Biden to get offstage so Joe Kennedy can speak. There's room for all of them. There needs to be room for all of us, too.
A few years ago Janelle Monae was doing press for her album the Electric Lady, and I heard a number of interviews she did. In each interview when they would ask her who or what an electric lady was, she would first point to the women in the room, sometimes that would be the person interviewing her: "Linda, I think you're an electric lady." and then discuss other women she considered electric ladies. Each interview she would talk about different women. So her press tour included her continuously naming off interesting, accomplished, inspirational women in a variety of fields, of varying races, orientations, trans or cis, etc. It was very cool. It was cool in one interview but if you listened to them in succession, you could see the intentionality of bringing everyone into her light.
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:03 AM on March 30, 2018 [20 favorites]
Piffle. No one tells Bernie or Joe Biden to get offstage so Joe Kennedy can speak. There's room for all of them. There needs to be room for all of us, too.
A few years ago Janelle Monae was doing press for her album the Electric Lady, and I heard a number of interviews she did. In each interview when they would ask her who or what an electric lady was, she would first point to the women in the room, sometimes that would be the person interviewing her: "Linda, I think you're an electric lady." and then discuss other women she considered electric ladies. Each interview she would talk about different women. So her press tour included her continuously naming off interesting, accomplished, inspirational women in a variety of fields, of varying races, orientations, trans or cis, etc. It was very cool. It was cool in one interview but if you listened to them in succession, you could see the intentionality of bringing everyone into her light.
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:03 AM on March 30, 2018 [20 favorites]
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YES YES YES YES YES YES
posted by winna at 9:32 AM on March 28, 2018 [129 favorites]