Thank heavens: Pope puts Hell in doubt
March 30, 2018 1:26 AM Subscribe
Hell, it turns out, is not a fiery pit of eternal damnation. Neither does it involve varieties of extreme torment. Rather, the punishment for sinners upon death is simply that they disappear.
Before you organise the party, however, note that "The Vatican press office confirmed a meeting but insisted it did not amount to an interview. “No words in quotation marks should be considered as a faithful transcription of the Holy Father’s words.” Also note that Scalfari has a track record for misquotation.
Before you organise the party, however, note that "The Vatican press office confirmed a meeting but insisted it did not amount to an interview. “No words in quotation marks should be considered as a faithful transcription of the Holy Father’s words.” Also note that Scalfari has a track record for misquotation.
From what I've heard (or read), the early church was all universalist. Then Augustine came into the picture.
posted by paladin at 2:07 AM on March 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by paladin at 2:07 AM on March 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
BTW here's the interview, in Italian of course - but there's a paywall.
posted by aqsakal at 2:24 AM on March 30, 2018
posted by aqsakal at 2:24 AM on March 30, 2018
According to the BBC, Scalfari takes no notes or audio recording during his interviews, but transcribes them purely from memory. A less reliable way of passing on another person's views is hard to imagine - particularly on a subject like this where it's crucial to get the nuance right.
posted by Paul Slade at 2:54 AM on March 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 2:54 AM on March 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
I'm no biblical scholar, but the way I've always understood it, the Bible defines heaven as eternal union with God, while hell is the eternal separation from God. Make sense to me.
posted by Miss Cellania at 3:02 AM on March 30, 2018 [31 favorites]
posted by Miss Cellania at 3:02 AM on March 30, 2018 [31 favorites]
thetimes.co.uk is requiring me to register before reading the article.* Google is not providing a cached version and thetimes, unlike sites like the Wall Street Journal's, does not allow access to the full article through a Google referrer.
*(much more obnoxiously, but less germane to the FPP: thetimes is capturing keyboard actions like cmd-w for closing the tab until after a scroll event occurs. It is a very bad website.)
posted by ardgedee at 3:24 AM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
*(much more obnoxiously, but less germane to the FPP: thetimes is capturing keyboard actions like cmd-w for closing the tab until after a scroll event occurs. It is a very bad website.)
posted by ardgedee at 3:24 AM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
thetimes.co.uk is requiring me to register before reading the article.
Same here. On the plus side, this FPP is the third link on Google.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:27 AM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Same here. On the plus side, this FPP is the third link on Google.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:27 AM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Having to give them a coin to read this is thematic at least
posted by thelonius at 3:38 AM on March 30, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 3:38 AM on March 30, 2018 [12 favorites]
1. Paul Slade: Scalfari is the most amazingly opinionated journalist (doubles as a philosopher), and despite using neither notebook nor audio recording managed to found Italy's second most widely-read daily. (For what it's worth, given the abysmal level of readership of anything beyond Gazzetta dello Sport.)
2. ardgedee, Thorzdad: Yes, The Times also has a paywall, but it's free and you get to read one full article a week.
posted by aqsakal at 3:39 AM on March 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
2. ardgedee, Thorzdad: Yes, The Times also has a paywall, but it's free and you get to read one full article a week.
posted by aqsakal at 3:39 AM on March 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I am curious, because annihilationism is one of those positions that has had a minority interest, but is not quite heretical, from the beginning (Irenaus, Justin Martyr, Ignatious of Antioch) but of recent (post Wesley) it is largely thought of a protestant, or at least Anglican position, most of the people thinking about it seriously coming from Cambridge.
I also think that isolation from the love of God, is such a terrible punishment, much worse than the lake of fire or teeth gnashing.
posted by PinkMoose at 3:41 AM on March 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I also think that isolation from the love of God, is such a terrible punishment, much worse than the lake of fire or teeth gnashing.
posted by PinkMoose at 3:41 AM on March 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
> ...despite using neither notebook nor audio recording managed to found Italy's second most widely-read daily.
If a lack of accountability and fact checking was an impediment to success, Rupert Murdoch would never have left Melbourne.
posted by ardgedee at 3:46 AM on March 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
If a lack of accountability and fact checking was an impediment to success, Rupert Murdoch would never have left Melbourne.
posted by ardgedee at 3:46 AM on March 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Would anybody be willing to explain to me what the theological perspective is on why "isolation from the love of God" is considered such a terrible punishment? I feel like I must be missing something, because I personally have never (knowingly, I guess) felt the love of God in my life and yet on the whole I feel like my existence is pretty OK. Certainly not some ultimate punishment. I guess it hinges around how the "love of God" is defined and how it is conceived to manifest in our lives? Anyway, it's something I've wondered about.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:56 AM on March 30, 2018 [24 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:56 AM on March 30, 2018 [24 favorites]
I'm no biblical scholar, but the way I've always understood it, the Bible defines heaven as eternal union with God, while hell is the eternal separation from God.
This is what I was also taught in Catholic school. There was never any talk of torment or lakes of fire or anything like that, just that the knowing choice to sin isolates your soul from the love of God. (As an atheist, I was just like...mkay, so same as usual then? That's fine.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:14 AM on March 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
This is what I was also taught in Catholic school. There was never any talk of torment or lakes of fire or anything like that, just that the knowing choice to sin isolates your soul from the love of God. (As an atheist, I was just like...mkay, so same as usual then? That's fine.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:14 AM on March 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
Edward Fudge’s book The Fire that Consumes convinced me decades ago that the most consistent biblical view is life with God forever for the saved, non-existence for the wicked. Once you see it, it’s everywhere in the scriptures. Like John 3:16, the most quoted verse of the New Testament: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that those who believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life.” Those are the options, you either perish or have everlasting life. “Tortured forever” isn’t there. Or Romans 6:23 “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.” Or Matthew 10:28 “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” It’s kind of everywhere—in hell people perish/die/are destroyed. And there really aren’t any verses that clearly and directly say “no, unbelievers will be tortured forever.”
Fudge deals exhaustively with the relevant texts, making, in my opinion, the closest thing you can get to an airtight case that non-existence is the most biblical view of hell. So how did we wind up with unending eternal torment as the majority view?
Basically, Fudge argues that early in church history, leaders were influenced by the dominant neo-Platonic philosophy of the day, which held that souls were inherently immortal. This was so widely held that it was hard to consider that anything else might be the case. So when they read all the perish/die/be destroyed stuff, they basically thought “well, that’s not literally true, you can’t destroy a soul...it must be a metaphor for something so horrible that your previous life is utterly gone and now your existence is horrible.” Then they grabbed a few verses out of context to support that view, especially Mark 9:48, where Jesus says “ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.” That sounds like it could be unending torment, until you read the passage Jesus is quoting in Isaiah 66:
“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Yeah, it’s another reference to death. The worm and fire aren’t torturing people, they are utterly, unstoppably, consuming the remnants of the dead until nothing of them remains. And that’s the image Jesus uses for hell.
What’s equally fascinating and frustrating to me is when I discuss this with a fundamentalist who clings to the traditional view, and he tells me to ignore the literal meaning of those texts and interpret them metaphorically. When you’ve got a lifelong “every verse is literally true” person telling you “well, not those,” you know their theology has some issues. If you think the apocalyptic images of Revelation all literally happen but “perish” probably means “is tortured forever” it’s time to start over and try again.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 4:33 AM on March 30, 2018 [190 favorites]
Fudge deals exhaustively with the relevant texts, making, in my opinion, the closest thing you can get to an airtight case that non-existence is the most biblical view of hell. So how did we wind up with unending eternal torment as the majority view?
Basically, Fudge argues that early in church history, leaders were influenced by the dominant neo-Platonic philosophy of the day, which held that souls were inherently immortal. This was so widely held that it was hard to consider that anything else might be the case. So when they read all the perish/die/be destroyed stuff, they basically thought “well, that’s not literally true, you can’t destroy a soul...it must be a metaphor for something so horrible that your previous life is utterly gone and now your existence is horrible.” Then they grabbed a few verses out of context to support that view, especially Mark 9:48, where Jesus says “ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.” That sounds like it could be unending torment, until you read the passage Jesus is quoting in Isaiah 66:
“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Yeah, it’s another reference to death. The worm and fire aren’t torturing people, they are utterly, unstoppably, consuming the remnants of the dead until nothing of them remains. And that’s the image Jesus uses for hell.
What’s equally fascinating and frustrating to me is when I discuss this with a fundamentalist who clings to the traditional view, and he tells me to ignore the literal meaning of those texts and interpret them metaphorically. When you’ve got a lifelong “every verse is literally true” person telling you “well, not those,” you know their theology has some issues. If you think the apocalyptic images of Revelation all literally happen but “perish” probably means “is tortured forever” it’s time to start over and try again.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 4:33 AM on March 30, 2018 [190 favorites]
Would anybody be willing to explain to me what the theological perspective is on why "isolation from the love of God" is considered such a terrible punishment? I feel like I must be missing something, because I personally have never (knowingly, I guess) felt the love of God in my life and yet on the whole I feel like my existence is pretty OK.
This is supersimplistic, but - "So, God's awesome and those who live in God's City in the afterlife will be living in an awesome place. So wouldn't it suck if you missed out on that?" It does sort of assume that "understanding that the love of God is a good thing" is a given to get why its absence would be bad.
Actually, the last scene in the film The Rapture illustrates the concept pretty well.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:34 AM on March 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
This is supersimplistic, but - "So, God's awesome and those who live in God's City in the afterlife will be living in an awesome place. So wouldn't it suck if you missed out on that?" It does sort of assume that "understanding that the love of God is a good thing" is a given to get why its absence would be bad.
Actually, the last scene in the film The Rapture illustrates the concept pretty well.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:34 AM on March 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Since Purgatory was bulldozed and made into condos, maybe they’ll finally get a Starbucks and a Costco when they redevelop Hell.
posted by dr_dank at 4:37 AM on March 30, 2018
posted by dr_dank at 4:37 AM on March 30, 2018
Next for theological reconsideration: what if God was one of us? Just a slob, like one of us? Just a stranger on the bus, trying to make His way home?
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:43 AM on March 30, 2018 [32 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:43 AM on March 30, 2018 [32 favorites]
I'd already gotten that far, but my problem there is that if "God's love" is only available in the afterlife, then this life must be basically hell. It doesn't feel like hell? I mean there are a lot of problems down here but I don't feel like being alive is a punishment.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:44 AM on March 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:44 AM on March 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
As to “why separation from God is terrible” I think the basic idea is supposed to be that all love, joy, and virtue is ultimately rooted in the love of God, so when you’re cut off from that, there’s nothing left you want to experience. Saying you don’t need God is kind of like saying “Oh, you’ll disconnect me from the electrical grid? No big deal. My power comes from this switch on the wall.” You might not have consciously labeled something “the love of God” but any love you’ve experienced was only possible because of God—and that’s why being cut off from him would be dreadful.
(Again, that’s not really how I see hell—I’m with Fudge—but evangelical translation is one of many services I provide free of charge to Metafilter.)
posted by Pater Aletheias at 4:47 AM on March 30, 2018 [96 favorites]
(Again, that’s not really how I see hell—I’m with Fudge—but evangelical translation is one of many services I provide free of charge to Metafilter.)
posted by Pater Aletheias at 4:47 AM on March 30, 2018 [96 favorites]
When my kids were younger, we had a conversation where they wanted to know what the various "bad words" meant.
They asked about "shit." I told them it's another name for the brown stuff that comes out of butts.
They asked about "damn." I said that, if you're damned, it means that God has given up on loving you and will forget about you, forever.
They talked about how shit is a normal and essential (if icky) part of life, and how God's love is a normal and essential and reassuring part of life, and asked me to explain why it's super not-okay to talk about shit, but only a little not-okay to talk about damn. I didn't have a very good answer to that one.
Then they asked if that was all the bad words or if there were more. I said, "Nice try, kids."
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 4:52 AM on March 30, 2018 [32 favorites]
They asked about "shit." I told them it's another name for the brown stuff that comes out of butts.
They asked about "damn." I said that, if you're damned, it means that God has given up on loving you and will forget about you, forever.
They talked about how shit is a normal and essential (if icky) part of life, and how God's love is a normal and essential and reassuring part of life, and asked me to explain why it's super not-okay to talk about shit, but only a little not-okay to talk about damn. I didn't have a very good answer to that one.
Then they asked if that was all the bad words or if there were more. I said, "Nice try, kids."
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 4:52 AM on March 30, 2018 [32 favorites]
Thanks, Pater Alethias. I guess I can understand how that would work.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:56 AM on March 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:56 AM on March 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Is it either or, or do you get the lake of fire or teeth gnashing and still have the love of god?
posted by unliteral at 4:58 AM on March 30, 2018
posted by unliteral at 4:58 AM on March 30, 2018
Hell, it turns out, is not a fiery pit of eternal damnation...the punishment for sinners upon death is simply that they disappear.
Great news—I can let my Mom know that she no longer needs to worry that my atheist soul is doomed to eternal damnation. And, if I'm wrong about god (I mean, "God"), I'm just going to disappear, which is what I was planning to do anyway.
So, win-win.
posted by she's not there at 5:01 AM on March 30, 2018 [16 favorites]
Great news—I can let my Mom know that she no longer needs to worry that my atheist soul is doomed to eternal damnation. And, if I'm wrong about god (I mean, "God"), I'm just going to disappear, which is what I was planning to do anyway.
So, win-win.
posted by she's not there at 5:01 AM on March 30, 2018 [16 favorites]
It’s all part of God’s great guessing game. If he just told you flat out how things were in the afterlife, where would the fun be? But I'm staying alive as long as I can.
posted by Segundus at 5:03 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 5:03 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Pretend you lived upstairs from somebody that was always throwing a great party and you weren't invited and your phone was out so you couldn't call and complain about the noise ordinance, and the cops had already been invited anyway. Really it sounds like a good time, but clearly your downstairs neighbors are asshole, but... come Sunday morning you'll still have to be polite to them in the laundry room...
Canadians understand this analogy very well, and can tell you hell freezes over at least once a year.
posted by Nanukthedog at 5:13 AM on March 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Canadians understand this analogy very well, and can tell you hell freezes over at least once a year.
posted by Nanukthedog at 5:13 AM on March 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
But I'm staying alive as long as I can.
Not me. Irrespective of an afterlife, I watched my mom live years past the last moment she enjoyed. She was 102 when her body finally let her go, and it was heartbreaking to see a genuinely good person suffer daily humiliation, pain, and frequent terror. Shouldn't happen to a dog, and it probably doesn't.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:16 AM on March 30, 2018 [19 favorites]
Not me. Irrespective of an afterlife, I watched my mom live years past the last moment she enjoyed. She was 102 when her body finally let her go, and it was heartbreaking to see a genuinely good person suffer daily humiliation, pain, and frequent terror. Shouldn't happen to a dog, and it probably doesn't.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:16 AM on March 30, 2018 [19 favorites]
There's a poem by Wittgenstein's friend Paul Engelmann which expresses the idea that the fire of hell is actually the fire of God's love. The true pain of hell (the poena damni, in theological jargon) is being unable to recognise this love for what it is, and perceiving it as some form of sadistic punishment. That is what it means to be cut off from the love of God.
posted by verstegan at 5:26 AM on March 30, 2018 [25 favorites]
posted by verstegan at 5:26 AM on March 30, 2018 [25 favorites]
If a lack of accountability and fact checking was an impediment to success, Rupert Murdoch would never have left Melbourne.
As a Melburnian, it is my duty to point out that he began his career in Adelaide.
posted by acb at 5:29 AM on March 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
As a Melburnian, it is my duty to point out that he began his career in Adelaide.
posted by acb at 5:29 AM on March 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
There's a poem by Wittgenstein's friend Paul Engelmann which expresses the idea that the fire of hell is actually the fire of God's love. The true pain of hell (the poena damni, in theological jargon) is being unable to recognise this love for what it is, and perceiving it as some form of sadistic punishment.
Which makes it sound even more like gaslighting in an abusive relationship. “He only burns me because He loves me”.
posted by acb at 5:34 AM on March 30, 2018 [26 favorites]
Which makes it sound even more like gaslighting in an abusive relationship. “He only burns me because He loves me”.
posted by acb at 5:34 AM on March 30, 2018 [26 favorites]
Huh, the new Hell sounds great. (No offense to the old Hell, which had its charms.)
posted by sutt at 5:47 AM on March 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by sutt at 5:47 AM on March 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Newsweek: Pope Francis Did Not Say Hell Does Not Exist: Vatican
By Nicole Goodkind
By Nicole Goodkind
... A Thursday story claiming that Pope Francis had denied the existence of hell spread like, well, hellfire. In an alleged interview for Italian journal La Repubblica, the pope told atheist journalist Eugenio Scalfari that bad souls “are not punished” and that “There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.”posted by lazuli at 5:51 AM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
The story, which would have fundamentally changed the foundations of one of the oldest institution in the world, was picked up by The Drudge Report and a number of high-profile publications, including Newsweek. But the Vatican says the story was fabricated.
The pope did meet with Scalfari, but he did not grant him an interview, said Vatican spokesperson Thomas Rosica. The Vatican called the article, “the fruit of his reconstruction,” and “No quotes of the aforementioned article should therefore be considered as a faithful transcription of the Holy Father’s words,” according to a statement received by the National Catholic Reporter...
I vaguely remember the Vatican position on Hell was already that it wasn't the fire and brimstone picture commonly depicted by the American church and Dante's Inferno, so this doesn't seem like so big of a shift.
I'm told that the fire and brimstone version is, itself, not actually in the Bible. You really have to stretch to make any of the three places where a Hell-like place is described actually fit. Moreover, it's kind of difficult to square with the prospect of a God of boundless love, which is why the Vatican de-emphasises it and American churches made arguments that black people were constantly breaking God's various laws.
If this is actually true, Hell is fanon.
posted by Merus at 5:52 AM on March 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm told that the fire and brimstone version is, itself, not actually in the Bible. You really have to stretch to make any of the three places where a Hell-like place is described actually fit. Moreover, it's kind of difficult to square with the prospect of a God of boundless love, which is why the Vatican de-emphasises it and American churches made arguments that black people were constantly breaking God's various laws.
If this is actually true, Hell is fanon.
posted by Merus at 5:52 AM on March 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
The National Catholic Reporter article: Vatican: Claim that pope denied hell's existence is unreliable. Which includes: "According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 'immediately after death, the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."'"
I had also heard that the Catholic Church was in general moving away from the concept of hell in general, but sounds like fire and brimstone is still the official position.
posted by lazuli at 5:57 AM on March 30, 2018
I had also heard that the Catholic Church was in general moving away from the concept of hell in general, but sounds like fire and brimstone is still the official position.
posted by lazuli at 5:57 AM on March 30, 2018
Pater Aletheias, so what's the take on the rich man and lazarus ? (..dip his finger in the pool to cool my tongue because I'm burning in the fire..). I get that parable is not focused on eschatology, but draws that theme in.
posted by k5.user at 6:08 AM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by k5.user at 6:08 AM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Francis is going to end up in a first-person reboot of the Good Place when he goes. He'll be put in the neighborhood with the other dead popes and then halfway into season one you find out (spoiler)
posted by ServSci at 6:12 AM on March 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by ServSci at 6:12 AM on March 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'd already gotten that far, but my problem there is that if "God's love" is only available in the afterlife, then this life must be basically hell
This is the bad place!
posted by schadenfrau at 6:18 AM on March 30, 2018 [24 favorites]
This is the bad place!
posted by schadenfrau at 6:18 AM on March 30, 2018 [24 favorites]
In the fiery pits of Hades, it's too late for your laments.
(Repent, Repent, Repent)
There's a fiery pit for ladies, and a fiery pit for gents.
posted by dannyboybell at 6:22 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
(Repent, Repent, Repent)
There's a fiery pit for ladies, and a fiery pit for gents.
posted by dannyboybell at 6:22 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Lucifer is lonely.
posted by Construction Concern at 6:27 AM on March 30, 2018
posted by Construction Concern at 6:27 AM on March 30, 2018
> "I'm no biblical scholar, but the way I've always understood it, the Bible defines heaven as eternal union with God, while hell is the eternal separation from God."
Is that even in the Bible anywhere? I'd always been under the impression it was just a later tacked-on doctrinal interpretation.
posted by kyrademon at 6:47 AM on March 30, 2018
Is that even in the Bible anywhere? I'd always been under the impression it was just a later tacked-on doctrinal interpretation.
posted by kyrademon at 6:47 AM on March 30, 2018
Didn't we already go thru this back in the late '90s with JPII? Hell's been a nothingburger for a coupla decades at this point, last I heard.
posted by davelog at 6:48 AM on March 30, 2018
posted by davelog at 6:48 AM on March 30, 2018
I mean, unless "the lake that burns with fire and sulfur" has more literal definitions than I thought it did.
posted by kyrademon at 6:50 AM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by kyrademon at 6:50 AM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Dante of course invented stuff at will, for example, betrayers of guests, iirc, were magicked right down to Hell before death, with doppelganger spirits serving out their body’s time.
posted by thelonius at 6:54 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 6:54 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
deliver us from paywalls
Vatican scrambles after pope appears to deny existence of hell
Repubblica founder Eugenio Scalfari has misrepresented pontiff’s words, says Vatican
posted by XMLicious at 7:00 AM on March 30, 2018
Vatican scrambles after pope appears to deny existence of hell
Repubblica founder Eugenio Scalfari has misrepresented pontiff’s words, says Vatican
posted by XMLicious at 7:00 AM on March 30, 2018
"this life must be basically hell. It doesn't feel like hell? I mean there are a lot of problems down here but I don't feel like being alive is a punishment."
Sometimes it can be. Pullquote:
Sometimes it can be. Pullquote:
Metatawabin attended the notorious St Anne’s Indian residential school for eight years, where he witnessed and experienced rampant sexual and physical abuse. Once, after vomiting into his porridge, he was forced to eat that same bowl of food.posted by traveler_ at 7:34 AM on March 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
The school even had a homemade electric chair, used for both punishment and the amusement of the staff.
Would anybody be willing to explain to me what the theological perspective is on why "isolation from the love of God" is considered such a terrible punishment? I feel like I must be missing something, because I personally have never (knowingly, I guess) felt the love of God in my life and yet on the whole I feel like my existence is pretty OK.
Atheist who was raised Catholic here, but the way I always made sense of it was like this. It may simply be that you haven't knowingly felt it, but have still benefited from it in ways you do not yet comprehend. Kind of like the 20%-ish concentration of oxygen in the air. Your body isn't feeling any sort of pleasure right now from that oxygen. But if the concentration of oxygen changes, you feel different. Since we've lived our corporeal lives "close enough" to God, we don't have any concept of what it's like to be without.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:04 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Atheist who was raised Catholic here, but the way I always made sense of it was like this. It may simply be that you haven't knowingly felt it, but have still benefited from it in ways you do not yet comprehend. Kind of like the 20%-ish concentration of oxygen in the air. Your body isn't feeling any sort of pleasure right now from that oxygen. But if the concentration of oxygen changes, you feel different. Since we've lived our corporeal lives "close enough" to God, we don't have any concept of what it's like to be without.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:04 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Pater Aletheias, so what's the take on the rich man and lazarus ? (..dip his finger in the pool to cool my tongue because I'm burning in the fire..). I get that parable is not focused on eschatology, but draws that theme in.
I don't remember Fudge's take on that and my copy of the book is currently in storage, but there are a couple of plausible responses: (1) When I was studying parables in my graduate work, one of the dominant (though not universal) views was that parables are generally intended to make one big point--the moral at the end--and it's a mistake to read anything into them beyond that. This could be sort of fable set in the afterlife not really intended to comment on eternal destiny, but to speak about the need to repent and be generous now. Care for the poor is a dominant theme in Luke's gospel (Luke 16 is where the parable shows up) so it makes sense to interpret it along those lines. The rich being humbled and the poor being blessed is a theme from the very first chapter of Luke. (2) The rich man isn't in "hell," he's in hades. Most interpreters--like, almost all--don't see this as referring to the ultimate destiny of the rich man. If Jesus meant hell he could have said that*, but instead we have hades, which is more of the wispy, insubstantial post-death existence you see in Greek mythology. There's a common view that after death everyone is in hades, and it's pleasant or unpleasant depending on the life you lived. Then, someday, Jesus comes back, the bodies of the dead are resurrected, and you to your ultimate destiny. (In Fudge's/my view eternity with God in a renewed earth or non-existence.) “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."--John 5:28-29
I'm generally in the "this is a parable based on a common sort of afterlife fable, don't read to much into it" camp, but regardless, the hades/hell distinction is important. Neither the rich man nor Lazarus seem to be experiencing anything like what the Bible elsewhere portrays as the ultimate destiny of humans.
*the word Jesus usually uses that we translate "hell" is Gehenna, which seems to have referred to a place where garbage was disposed of and burned.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:36 AM on March 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
I don't remember Fudge's take on that and my copy of the book is currently in storage, but there are a couple of plausible responses: (1) When I was studying parables in my graduate work, one of the dominant (though not universal) views was that parables are generally intended to make one big point--the moral at the end--and it's a mistake to read anything into them beyond that. This could be sort of fable set in the afterlife not really intended to comment on eternal destiny, but to speak about the need to repent and be generous now. Care for the poor is a dominant theme in Luke's gospel (Luke 16 is where the parable shows up) so it makes sense to interpret it along those lines. The rich being humbled and the poor being blessed is a theme from the very first chapter of Luke. (2) The rich man isn't in "hell," he's in hades. Most interpreters--like, almost all--don't see this as referring to the ultimate destiny of the rich man. If Jesus meant hell he could have said that*, but instead we have hades, which is more of the wispy, insubstantial post-death existence you see in Greek mythology. There's a common view that after death everyone is in hades, and it's pleasant or unpleasant depending on the life you lived. Then, someday, Jesus comes back, the bodies of the dead are resurrected, and you to your ultimate destiny. (In Fudge's/my view eternity with God in a renewed earth or non-existence.) “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."--John 5:28-29
I'm generally in the "this is a parable based on a common sort of afterlife fable, don't read to much into it" camp, but regardless, the hades/hell distinction is important. Neither the rich man nor Lazarus seem to be experiencing anything like what the Bible elsewhere portrays as the ultimate destiny of humans.
*the word Jesus usually uses that we translate "hell" is Gehenna, which seems to have referred to a place where garbage was disposed of and burned.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:36 AM on March 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
I feel like I must be missing something, because I personally have never (knowingly, I guess) felt the love of God in my life and yet on the whole I feel like my existence is pretty OK.
So, like me, you don't feel the sort of explicit affection from God that you associate with your family and close friends. I'm guessing that, like me, you conclude that the reason you don't feel it is that God doesn't exist. Perfectly reasonable.
But, from a Christian point of view: this world was made for you, out of love for you. When you look at a beautiful sunset or mountain, you are experiencing the love of God. The antibiotics that mean the smallest scrape is not a potential death sentence? The love of God. The volunteers at the local clinic? Acting out of the goodness of their nature, another gift from God. You may not be conscious of it, but it is still there, and you would feel its absence, like being exposed to the vacuum of space.
There's a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem that gets at it pretty well:
The world is charged with the grandeur of God.
It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;
And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;
And wears man's smudge and shares man's smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.
And for all this, nature is never spent;
There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;
And though the last lights off the black West went
Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs —
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.
posted by praemunire at 9:08 AM on March 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
So, like me, you don't feel the sort of explicit affection from God that you associate with your family and close friends. I'm guessing that, like me, you conclude that the reason you don't feel it is that God doesn't exist. Perfectly reasonable.
But, from a Christian point of view: this world was made for you, out of love for you. When you look at a beautiful sunset or mountain, you are experiencing the love of God. The antibiotics that mean the smallest scrape is not a potential death sentence? The love of God. The volunteers at the local clinic? Acting out of the goodness of their nature, another gift from God. You may not be conscious of it, but it is still there, and you would feel its absence, like being exposed to the vacuum of space.
There's a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem that gets at it pretty well:
The world is charged with the grandeur of God.
It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;
And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;
And wears man's smudge and shares man's smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.
And for all this, nature is never spent;
There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;
And though the last lights off the black West went
Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs —
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.
posted by praemunire at 9:08 AM on March 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
...Me, personally, I can't square the existence of a loving and omnipotent God with a Hell because, well. I love several dogs. They are ridiculous and absurd creatures who require constant care and are constantly making messes and I still adore them, just the way they are.
Compared to humans, dogs would have to have infinitely greater capacities than humans than humans compared to an omnipotent God. And a loving and omnipotent God would also have to have an incomprehensible capacity for love and forgiveness.
I could never condemn any dog to infinite torment, no matter what they did. Could you?
So I can't believe that a loving and omnipotent God could do that to humans. Heck, I can't even bear to watch fictional dogs suffer. Frankly, I'm squinting suspiciously even at the theory of disappearance.
(My [non-specialist!] understanding is that the general majority view of Jews at the time would have been the nonexistence or unknowability of an afterlife, so it's not exactly surprising to find it as a substrate in the NT, which of course reflects an attempt to reconcile the Jewish origins of the splinter cult with Neoplatonism.)
posted by praemunire at 9:15 AM on March 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Compared to humans, dogs would have to have infinitely greater capacities than humans than humans compared to an omnipotent God. And a loving and omnipotent God would also have to have an incomprehensible capacity for love and forgiveness.
I could never condemn any dog to infinite torment, no matter what they did. Could you?
So I can't believe that a loving and omnipotent God could do that to humans. Heck, I can't even bear to watch fictional dogs suffer. Frankly, I'm squinting suspiciously even at the theory of disappearance.
(My [non-specialist!] understanding is that the general majority view of Jews at the time would have been the nonexistence or unknowability of an afterlife, so it's not exactly surprising to find it as a substrate in the NT, which of course reflects an attempt to reconcile the Jewish origins of the splinter cult with Neoplatonism.)
posted by praemunire at 9:15 AM on March 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
the word Jesus usually uses that we translate "hell" is Gehenna, which seems to have referred to a place where garbage was disposed of and burned.
IIRC, that is still currently the municipal rubbish dump for Jerusalem.
posted by acb at 9:17 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
IIRC, that is still currently the municipal rubbish dump for Jerusalem.
posted by acb at 9:17 AM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
praemunire, as I understand it a common view is that God doesn't choose to condemn us to hell but it's a choice we make for ourselves. That's at least my hazy recollection of the pop theology I read a few decades ago (primarily C.S. Lewis; I still love his imagery in The Great Divorce even though I no longer believe it holds any truth!).
posted by ElKevbo at 9:22 AM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ElKevbo at 9:22 AM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
every human soul is one of god's saved game files, and sometimes you just go ahead and delete the ones where the playthrough didn't work out.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:24 AM on March 30, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:24 AM on March 30, 2018 [9 favorites]
Non-existence is my ideal afterlife scenario, so, hooray. I'll (not) see y'all in Hell!
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:43 AM on March 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:43 AM on March 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
praemunire, as I understand it a common view is that God doesn't choose to condemn us to hell but it's a choice we make for ourselves.
This statement is only a mockery in a world with an omnipotent God who made us, Hell, and the rules by which one qualifies for it. Additionally, it would be a rare being who would continue to choose Hell once in it.
I'm familiar with the theological arguments; as I'm not otherwise a caregiver to dependent beings, I only began to feel the force of the affective arguments when I became a dog-lover.
posted by praemunire at 9:46 AM on March 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
This statement is only a mockery in a world with an omnipotent God who made us, Hell, and the rules by which one qualifies for it. Additionally, it would be a rare being who would continue to choose Hell once in it.
I'm familiar with the theological arguments; as I'm not otherwise a caregiver to dependent beings, I only began to feel the force of the affective arguments when I became a dog-lover.
posted by praemunire at 9:46 AM on March 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I could never condemn any dog to infinite torment, no matter what they did. Could you?
This is extremely personal for me right now, because I am having to contemplate what to do about a human aggressive fear reactive dog who is also good and loving and loyal and snuggles with cat and humans and just wants to be a good boy, and at the same time cannot be exposed to any new human without a muzzle.
What do you do with someone who is just making mistakes but at the same time is a danger to those around them? How do you bring someone who will harm others into heaven? At the same time, how do you justify tormenting them?
This is why the definition of hell I’ve favored most is CS Lewis’s definition - of a vast emptiness without god, at any point which you may be removed from if you only understand and repent and wish to do better moving forward.
posted by corb at 9:55 AM on March 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
This is extremely personal for me right now, because I am having to contemplate what to do about a human aggressive fear reactive dog who is also good and loving and loyal and snuggles with cat and humans and just wants to be a good boy, and at the same time cannot be exposed to any new human without a muzzle.
What do you do with someone who is just making mistakes but at the same time is a danger to those around them? How do you bring someone who will harm others into heaven? At the same time, how do you justify tormenting them?
This is why the definition of hell I’ve favored most is CS Lewis’s definition - of a vast emptiness without god, at any point which you may be removed from if you only understand and repent and wish to do better moving forward.
posted by corb at 9:55 AM on March 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
What do you do with someone who is just making mistakes but at the same time is a danger to those around them? How do you bring someone who will harm others into heaven? At the same time, how do you justify tormenting them?
I don't think euthanizing a dog is tormenting them. Though it is certainly torment for the humans involved. That's a nightmare scenario, and I'm very sorry. Whatever you do, I'm sure it won't be out of righteous wrath, the kind with which God is said to dispatch sinners to Hell.
(You've probably already thought of this, but just in case you haven't, there are trainers who will take aggressive dogs into board-and-train situations, in the hopes that 24/7 attention to the problem over time may help. I've seen it work sometimes.)
posted by praemunire at 11:03 AM on March 30, 2018
I don't think euthanizing a dog is tormenting them. Though it is certainly torment for the humans involved. That's a nightmare scenario, and I'm very sorry. Whatever you do, I'm sure it won't be out of righteous wrath, the kind with which God is said to dispatch sinners to Hell.
(You've probably already thought of this, but just in case you haven't, there are trainers who will take aggressive dogs into board-and-train situations, in the hopes that 24/7 attention to the problem over time may help. I've seen it work sometimes.)
posted by praemunire at 11:03 AM on March 30, 2018
Well, we're all sinners and we all disappear, so.
posted by metagnathous at 11:22 AM on March 30, 2018
posted by metagnathous at 11:22 AM on March 30, 2018
Acceptance of arbitrary, completely unscientific "revelations" is mind-boggling. It's like writing Science Fiction.
"Ok, if people eat this substance, they can sometimes see the future. So says my provincial and petty god who forgot to visit China!"
"Cool! What creates the substance?"
"It's the by-product of giant sand worm shit. They dump it all over the place when they swim around in the desert. And get this! It makes your eyes glow blue!"
"How do you know all this, oh great and wise white man who could really use a bath?"
"A flying snaggle-tooth demon told me in a dream. It's called a revelation, dumbshit!"
"Well say no more! Give this prophet a silly hat and power over women's bodies RIGHT NOW."
posted by Brocktoon at 11:46 AM on March 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
"Ok, if people eat this substance, they can sometimes see the future. So says my provincial and petty god who forgot to visit China!"
"Cool! What creates the substance?"
"It's the by-product of giant sand worm shit. They dump it all over the place when they swim around in the desert. And get this! It makes your eyes glow blue!"
"How do you know all this, oh great and wise white man who could really use a bath?"
"A flying snaggle-tooth demon told me in a dream. It's called a revelation, dumbshit!"
"Well say no more! Give this prophet a silly hat and power over women's bodies RIGHT NOW."
posted by Brocktoon at 11:46 AM on March 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
What’s equally fascinating and frustrating to me is when I discuss this with a fundamentalist who clings to the traditional view, and he tells me to ignore the literal meaning of those texts and interpret them metaphorically. When you’ve got a lifelong “every verse is literally true” person telling you “well, not those,” you know their theology has some issues. If you think the apocalyptic images of Revelation all literally happen but “perish” probably means “is tortured forever” it’s time to start over and try again.
Thank you for this. I was raised in a fundamentalist church who believes that every word in the King James bible is literally true, but are such committed teetotalers that they use Welch's grape juice instead of wine for communion. Naturally, during my long and painful forced Sunday school attendance, I pointed out that the bible specifically commands you to drink wine for communion, and thus Welch's grape juice is blasphemy of the worst kind. When I got married some members of my family refused to attend because we served wine at the reception. My email to them with the question, "Remind me again of what Jesus' first miracle was?" went without response. So apparently, every word in the KJV means exactly what it mean, except for "wine", which doesn't mean wine.
posted by vibrotronica at 11:51 AM on March 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
Thank you for this. I was raised in a fundamentalist church who believes that every word in the King James bible is literally true, but are such committed teetotalers that they use Welch's grape juice instead of wine for communion. Naturally, during my long and painful forced Sunday school attendance, I pointed out that the bible specifically commands you to drink wine for communion, and thus Welch's grape juice is blasphemy of the worst kind. When I got married some members of my family refused to attend because we served wine at the reception. My email to them with the question, "Remind me again of what Jesus' first miracle was?" went without response. So apparently, every word in the KJV means exactly what it mean, except for "wine", which doesn't mean wine.
posted by vibrotronica at 11:51 AM on March 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
> Well, we're all sinners and we all disappear, so.
RENEWAL IS A LIE!
posted by davelog at 12:18 PM on March 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
RENEWAL IS A LIE!
posted by davelog at 12:18 PM on March 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
FWIW, this bit from Luke is sometimes held up as "evidence" for Hell by people who consider tales in an old storybook as evidence. Jesus is supposedly speaking here:
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I just remembered that bit off the top of my head, but I seem to recall there were other stories in the christian bible talking about the flames and torment awaiting everybody who isn't in Jesus' fan club, though never with the sort of morbid glee with which later commentators would add to the mythology of Hell.
OTOH, how this story reconciles with modern American evangelicals' ideas about poverty and wealth is a mystery to me.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 12:24 PM on March 30, 2018
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I just remembered that bit off the top of my head, but I seem to recall there were other stories in the christian bible talking about the flames and torment awaiting everybody who isn't in Jesus' fan club, though never with the sort of morbid glee with which later commentators would add to the mythology of Hell.
OTOH, how this story reconciles with modern American evangelicals' ideas about poverty and wealth is a mystery to me.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 12:24 PM on March 30, 2018
Oh yeah, and Revelation 14:
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Used to hear that last bit a lot when folks would start a' proselytizin'...
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 12:30 PM on March 30, 2018
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Used to hear that last bit a lot when folks would start a' proselytizin'...
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 12:30 PM on March 30, 2018
what a fascinating thread. I have to say, I don't get why eternal separation from the love of God is particularly frightening; it's certainly how I understand my actual lived life, as I have no relationship to or interest in God. I wouldn't say I'm an atheist; ideas like God are inherently untestable and therefore not within the realm of concepts I am prepared to provide a yes/no opinion on. But there's no God-shaped hole in my life, in my view.
posted by mwhybark at 12:35 PM on March 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by mwhybark at 12:35 PM on March 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
deliver us from paywalls
Okay, done.
This may or may not have been said. But if the Pope did say it, he is cribbing from Egyptian mythology, Scale of Anubis and having your corrupt heart devoured by Ammit.
The idea sounds crueller, at any rate. It is like shredding damning documents to hide a company's sins. If the rot is hidden, then the higher's up can claim efficiency and purity. A heavenly cover-up theory of the Afterlife? Makes it sound as if even God has someone higher up the food chain He must answer to...
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 12:44 PM on March 30, 2018
Okay, done.
This may or may not have been said. But if the Pope did say it, he is cribbing from Egyptian mythology, Scale of Anubis and having your corrupt heart devoured by Ammit.
The idea sounds crueller, at any rate. It is like shredding damning documents to hide a company's sins. If the rot is hidden, then the higher's up can claim efficiency and purity. A heavenly cover-up theory of the Afterlife? Makes it sound as if even God has someone higher up the food chain He must answer to...
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 12:44 PM on March 30, 2018
"I had also heard that the Catholic Church was in general moving away from the concept of hell in general, but sounds like fire and brimstone is still the official position."
The traditional joke/criticism/kind-of true statement along these lines is that Catholicism definitely believes in a hell, it's just not sure if there's anyone in it.
"I don't get why eternal separation from the love of God is particularly frightening; it's certainly how I understand my actual lived life, as I have no relationship to or interest in God. "
Love of God as understood by Catholics would involve every good thing -- the beauty of the natural world, the wonder of science, the love of your family, time with your friends, an excellent glass of wine, beautiful music, glorious art, all of it. Everything that is good in the world is understood as a reflection of the love of God. So Hell would be the absence of all those things, not just happy Jesus feels a la vocal evangelicals.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:52 PM on March 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
The traditional joke/criticism/kind-of true statement along these lines is that Catholicism definitely believes in a hell, it's just not sure if there's anyone in it.
"I don't get why eternal separation from the love of God is particularly frightening; it's certainly how I understand my actual lived life, as I have no relationship to or interest in God. "
Love of God as understood by Catholics would involve every good thing -- the beauty of the natural world, the wonder of science, the love of your family, time with your friends, an excellent glass of wine, beautiful music, glorious art, all of it. Everything that is good in the world is understood as a reflection of the love of God. So Hell would be the absence of all those things, not just happy Jesus feels a la vocal evangelicals.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:52 PM on March 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
Everything that is good in the world is understood as a reflection of the love of God.
And therefore religious worship and spiritual reflection is centered around gratitude for the opportunity to experience it, if I understand correctly, right? I'm not particularly grateful, actually. Even if I were, I still don't get why that feeling of gratitude gets focused on the idea of God. I mean, it's really none of my business, honestly. Whatever floats your boat!
posted by mwhybark at 1:38 PM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
And therefore religious worship and spiritual reflection is centered around gratitude for the opportunity to experience it, if I understand correctly, right? I'm not particularly grateful, actually. Even if I were, I still don't get why that feeling of gratitude gets focused on the idea of God. I mean, it's really none of my business, honestly. Whatever floats your boat!
posted by mwhybark at 1:38 PM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Love of God as understood by Catholics would involve every good thing -- the beauty of the natural world, the wonder of science, the love of your family, time with your friends, an excellent glass of wine, beautiful music, glorious art, all of it. Everything that is good in the world is understood as a reflection of the love of God
So God is basically dopamine?
posted by acb at 2:02 PM on March 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
So God is basically dopamine?
posted by acb at 2:02 PM on March 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
If that Pope quote is accurate, it may have been a reference to St. Augustine's privatio boni ... absence of good.
Apart from physics questions ... it's not clear how you can square the idea that 'evil, unlike good, is insubstantial' with a physical eternal torture location. (Apart from listening to BBC news.)
posted by Twang at 5:29 PM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Apart from physics questions ... it's not clear how you can square the idea that 'evil, unlike good, is insubstantial' with a physical eternal torture location. (Apart from listening to BBC news.)
posted by Twang at 5:29 PM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm not even particularly religious and I don't like this pope's willful confusion. I grew up Catholic and like to think of it as a rock that will never change, aside from the ordination of married priests. The vow of celibacy was instituted to preserve the Church's worldly wealth and has been a disaster for bearing witness to Jesus Christ.
posted by bookman117 at 5:54 PM on March 30, 2018
posted by bookman117 at 5:54 PM on March 30, 2018
The vow of celibacy was instituted to preserve the Church's worldly wealth
Yes and no. I mean, you're right that that was definitely a consideration - the Church could not get as much done if they actually had to pay priests and nuns even minimum wage for hours worked - but also I think it's because if people have families it means less hours spent as a priest. You can't reasonably expect to call a family man up three times in the middle of the night because someone is dying, and they don't have the priests left anymore to be able to rotate shifts. It's one reason we saw the change in the name of the sacrament, imho.
posted by corb at 6:02 PM on March 30, 2018
Yes and no. I mean, you're right that that was definitely a consideration - the Church could not get as much done if they actually had to pay priests and nuns even minimum wage for hours worked - but also I think it's because if people have families it means less hours spent as a priest. You can't reasonably expect to call a family man up three times in the middle of the night because someone is dying, and they don't have the priests left anymore to be able to rotate shifts. It's one reason we saw the change in the name of the sacrament, imho.
posted by corb at 6:02 PM on March 30, 2018
Corb, wages weren't a consideration in the feudal society that celibacy was implemented. It was about ensuring that Church lands weren't passed on to the clergy's children.
posted by bookman117 at 6:08 PM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by bookman117 at 6:08 PM on March 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
*snerk*
The talk of the rich man/poor man parable has reminded me: this parable is depicted in the musical Godspell, and there was a college production I saw which depicted "the rich man in torment" by having him being continuously serenaded with New Kids On The Block songs.
There are many kinds of torments.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:55 PM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
The talk of the rich man/poor man parable has reminded me: this parable is depicted in the musical Godspell, and there was a college production I saw which depicted "the rich man in torment" by having him being continuously serenaded with New Kids On The Block songs.
There are many kinds of torments.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:55 PM on March 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Pater Aletheias, thanks so much for posting. That's exactly my view of what Scripture teaches about life after death and every Christian I've ever talked to about it has thought it was completely insane. (Except Seventh Day Adventists. Their views appear to be similar.)
I'll go check out that book now. I appreciate your post, thanks.
posted by gerstle at 8:23 PM on March 30, 2018
I'll go check out that book now. I appreciate your post, thanks.
posted by gerstle at 8:23 PM on March 30, 2018
"it would be a rare being who would continue to choose Hell once in it."
Pride is a heck of a drug.
posted by oddman at 8:42 PM on March 30, 2018
Pride is a heck of a drug.
posted by oddman at 8:42 PM on March 30, 2018
Mod note: One deleted. For folks who haven't been around here that long, we have had to make a loose guideline about threads on religious topics: in order for people to be able to actually discuss the subject of the post, we tend to delete the "haha, what do you expect from people who believe in an invisible sky god" sorts of comments which just hijack the whole conversation and which isn't something everyone hasn't heard a few million times (several million right here on this site!). It's fine to be an atheist, and fine to discuss that in threads about atheism or atheism vs deism, etc., and fine to be an atheist interested in discussing religious topics in good faith (yes, punny!), and fine to be an atheist and just skip the threads about topics you find silly.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:54 AM on March 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 4:54 AM on March 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
"You can't reasonably expect to call a family man up three times in the middle of the night because someone is dying,"
Protestants absolutely do! And Catholics used to, a thousand years ago. And Eastern Rite Catholics do today, and there are way, way, way fewer Eastern Rite priests than Western Rite priests, and you call 'em as many times in the middle of the night as you need to! It's literally part of the job, it's no different than being a doctor on call.
"and they don't have the priests left anymore to be able to rotate shifts. It's one reason we saw the change in the name of the sacrament, imho."
I'm so confused by this. What do you think they changed the name of the sacrament from and to? And you know that the mandatory clerical celibacy rules date from from the 11th century (as bookman notes, because priests kept leaving church property to their children); anointing of the sick was regularized by the Councils of Florence and Trent, and various name variations were given then (sacrament of the sick and sacrament of the dying both accepted, under various iterations, and it was given to the sick in the hopes they'd recover as well as to the dying), and those councils occurred in the mid-1400s and mid-1500s. So are you talking about the institution of clerical celibacy in the 11th century, the regularization of Anointing of the Sick in the 15th/16th century, or recent changes (presumably to the English translation of the name of the sacrament)?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:52 AM on March 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
Protestants absolutely do! And Catholics used to, a thousand years ago. And Eastern Rite Catholics do today, and there are way, way, way fewer Eastern Rite priests than Western Rite priests, and you call 'em as many times in the middle of the night as you need to! It's literally part of the job, it's no different than being a doctor on call.
"and they don't have the priests left anymore to be able to rotate shifts. It's one reason we saw the change in the name of the sacrament, imho."
I'm so confused by this. What do you think they changed the name of the sacrament from and to? And you know that the mandatory clerical celibacy rules date from from the 11th century (as bookman notes, because priests kept leaving church property to their children); anointing of the sick was regularized by the Councils of Florence and Trent, and various name variations were given then (sacrament of the sick and sacrament of the dying both accepted, under various iterations, and it was given to the sick in the hopes they'd recover as well as to the dying), and those councils occurred in the mid-1400s and mid-1500s. So are you talking about the institution of clerical celibacy in the 11th century, the regularization of Anointing of the Sick in the 15th/16th century, or recent changes (presumably to the English translation of the name of the sacrament)?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:52 AM on March 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
Who was it that said that not believing in God puts you at an advantage. or something like that? I remember the gist of it was that, "If I'm wrong about God, then I'm going to heaven when I die. If you're wrong about God, then nothing is going to happen to you when you die."
posted by emelenjr at 10:40 AM on March 31, 2018
posted by emelenjr at 10:40 AM on March 31, 2018
recent changes (presumably to the English translation of the name of the sacrament)?
So like many things related to religion, a lot of it is based on subjective experience and it’s hard to tell what is! When I was growing up, I always thought of it as last rites, that you call the priest only when you know you are dying so that your sins can be forgiven, and the understanding was that a priest would endure anything to be there because it was a matter of a soul. I suppose I have that reinforced during my time in the military, with chaplains that would voluntarily go into combat to make sure they can give the last rites to dying soldiers or the general absolution before battle.
When I got out of the military about 10 years later, it seemed like things had radically changed in the Catholic Church in America - not just for last rites, but all over. The time allotted for confession is so short, and if you have a longer problem, it’s like pulling teeth to get one scheduled. A lot of churches don’t even have a real place for it. It feels like you never see nuns anymore, and the priests don’t seem like part of the community in the same way. And when you look on churches websites, or newsletters, they always seem to refer to “anointing the sick” and encourage you to get it done early and often.
At one parish where I asked about this, they said it was because the church in America doesn’t have enough priests anymore. But if you have another explanation, I would be really interested to hear it. I always really appreciate your insights into Catholicism.
posted by corb at 11:09 AM on March 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
So like many things related to religion, a lot of it is based on subjective experience and it’s hard to tell what is! When I was growing up, I always thought of it as last rites, that you call the priest only when you know you are dying so that your sins can be forgiven, and the understanding was that a priest would endure anything to be there because it was a matter of a soul. I suppose I have that reinforced during my time in the military, with chaplains that would voluntarily go into combat to make sure they can give the last rites to dying soldiers or the general absolution before battle.
When I got out of the military about 10 years later, it seemed like things had radically changed in the Catholic Church in America - not just for last rites, but all over. The time allotted for confession is so short, and if you have a longer problem, it’s like pulling teeth to get one scheduled. A lot of churches don’t even have a real place for it. It feels like you never see nuns anymore, and the priests don’t seem like part of the community in the same way. And when you look on churches websites, or newsletters, they always seem to refer to “anointing the sick” and encourage you to get it done early and often.
At one parish where I asked about this, they said it was because the church in America doesn’t have enough priests anymore. But if you have another explanation, I would be really interested to hear it. I always really appreciate your insights into Catholicism.
posted by corb at 11:09 AM on March 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Well, Hell! I managed to have missed Pater Aletheias comment When I scrolled through this thread yesterday... Thanks for the clarification on how someone can read this stuff without coming to the usual eternal-fire-and-brimstone interpetation, Pater, but I you did get me wondering when you wrote, "Most interpreters--like, almost all--don't see this as referring to the ultimate destiny of the rich man"
I have never heard this before!?! You got a citation for that? Seriously, I ain't been down a religious reading rabbit hole in ages!
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 12:35 PM on March 31, 2018
I have never heard this before!?! You got a citation for that? Seriously, I ain't been down a religious reading rabbit hole in ages!
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 12:35 PM on March 31, 2018
According to the BBC, Scalfari takes no notes or audio recording during his interviews, but transcribes them purely from memory. A less reliable way of passing on another person's views is hard to imagine - particularly on a subject like this where it's crucial to get the nuance right.
Hey, why break with a couple thousand years of theological tradition? Imagine what the gospels would have looked like if the disciples had had better recording equipment...;-)
posted by rpfields at 12:40 PM on March 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
Hey, why break with a couple thousand years of theological tradition? Imagine what the gospels would have looked like if the disciples had had better recording equipment...;-)
posted by rpfields at 12:40 PM on March 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
When I was in grade school I once asked my mother, before she developed the cancer that would ultimately kill her, what happens after we die. I knew she was raised Catholic, so I knew she must have some idea. Her response was that good people and bad people experience different afterlives: good people get to travel, anywhere they want, whenever they want; bad people, though, are "stuck in their graves forever".
I thought the idea of being trapped in total darkness in a tiny box, forever, was a lot more terrifying than a literal lake of fire. Granted, she had fled the tiny town she grew up in almost immediately after marrying my dad, which my have informed her view on the afterlife, but that image really stuck with me.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:46 PM on March 31, 2018
I thought the idea of being trapped in total darkness in a tiny box, forever, was a lot more terrifying than a literal lake of fire. Granted, she had fled the tiny town she grew up in almost immediately after marrying my dad, which my have informed her view on the afterlife, but that image really stuck with me.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:46 PM on March 31, 2018
...but that image really stuck with me.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:46 PM on March 31 [+] [!]
Glad to see you made it to the, er, Astral Plane
posted by mwhybark at 5:06 PM on March 31, 2018
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:46 PM on March 31 [+] [!]
Glad to see you made it to the, er, Astral Plane
posted by mwhybark at 5:06 PM on March 31, 2018
" I always thought of it as last rites ... At one parish where I asked about this, they said it was because the church in America doesn’t have enough priests anymore. But if you have another explanation, I would be really interested to hear it"
So, part of the confusion here is that there is no sacrament called "Last Rites." The proper name of the sacrament is "unction" or "anointing" (related to "unctuous," or "oily"), with "extreme unction" being when you do it at death because it's in extremis.
"Last Rites" actually refers to the liturgical stuff around unction when given at death, and includes the viaticum (final Eucharist, called "viaticum" because it's food for the journey into death), and final penance, so it's actually three sacraments (eucharist, penance, anointing) combined with various prayers for the dying.
If you were taught there is a sacrament called "Last Rites," you were taught incorrectly, which is not at all unusual because Catholicism is shitty at catechetics (especially pre-Vatican II). In the popular imagination, heavily influenced by Hollywood movies, "Last Rites" is a sacrament. But in reality, Anointing of the Sick has always been a healing sacrament, that is also administered at death for a final spiritual healing. Part of why you're hearing about Anointing of the Sick now is that the English translations of the liturgies after Vatican II provided actual properly-translated English names of the Latin rites, instead of casual ad hoc translations, some of which were subject to a lot of language drift (how many people know what unction is? In my experience hardly anyone today knows it means "anointing with oil"). The other part of the reason is that with the significant advances in medical science since WWII, people live a lot longer, survive a lot more things, and undergo much more serious surgeries with excellent chance of survival, so there's been a renewed emphasis on the sacrament as a comfort to those who are sick or facing serious medical issues. In the past you'd often face your first serious medical issue and die. These days, people survive burst appendices, emergency C-sections, cancer, horrific car accidents, terrible battlefield wounds, etc., quite frequently, and those are all appropriate times for an anointing, so there's a lot more anointing of the sick who survive, and a lot less anointing of the dying who don't.
Finally, while there are fewer priests in the US than in the past and it's a big problem, I think more people actually have access to last rites than in the past because most Americans now die in hospitals or hospice, and there they literally do have priests (or liturgical ministers who can administer some sacraments) on call 24 hours a day in rotating shifts, so it's actually kind-of unusual for parish priests (or Protestant ministers located at a church) to be woken in the middle of the night, since there's a hospital chaplain on call. My friends in ministry say the chaplains have a lot of experience of when someone's near the end, and stay in contact with the patient's pastor (if the patient wants their own pastor) and they're able to give them a couple days' notice so they can make a scheduled visit, and then the hospital chaplain usually is there for the actual death (which many families prefer since the chaplain can help with the hospital parts, and they've been dealing with the chaplain for days or weeks so they're familiar). Local pastors mostly only get called out in the middle of the night for horrific accidents, close friends, or children.
If you have ultra short confession times, try another parish, I have literally never run into that. Mostly since so few people go to confession these days, the priest is like "STAY AND CHAT, I'M REALLY BORED, ARE YOU SURE YOU DON'T HAVE MORE SINS?" Like if you just want to hang out with a priest, Saturday confession is a great time to do it, there's nobody there.
Fewer churches do have the closet-style confessionals than in the past, though, because they're theologically questionable and not really true to the history of the sacrament; it's pretty common these days to just have some chairs set up in the sanctuary where you talk face-to-face with the priest. Although if you want to get real historical about it, you'd be doing the confessing in front of the entire congregation in public; private confession is a early Irish innovation from when they weren't really in contact with the rest of the Church, and its existence as the norm is really a Reformation-era change. (And if you want to get REALLY old-timey about it, you'd only be able to get absolution once in your whole life, which is how it ended up as part of the Last Rites, because you HAD to get that confession in there before you died but you definitely didn't want to use it up too early in case you sinned again.) And while closets were already theologically out of fashion (so new ones weren't really being built), a lot of dioceses and parishes stopped closet-style confessionals after the sexual abuse scandals; too many possibilities for abuse.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:30 AM on April 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
So, part of the confusion here is that there is no sacrament called "Last Rites." The proper name of the sacrament is "unction" or "anointing" (related to "unctuous," or "oily"), with "extreme unction" being when you do it at death because it's in extremis.
"Last Rites" actually refers to the liturgical stuff around unction when given at death, and includes the viaticum (final Eucharist, called "viaticum" because it's food for the journey into death), and final penance, so it's actually three sacraments (eucharist, penance, anointing) combined with various prayers for the dying.
If you were taught there is a sacrament called "Last Rites," you were taught incorrectly, which is not at all unusual because Catholicism is shitty at catechetics (especially pre-Vatican II). In the popular imagination, heavily influenced by Hollywood movies, "Last Rites" is a sacrament. But in reality, Anointing of the Sick has always been a healing sacrament, that is also administered at death for a final spiritual healing. Part of why you're hearing about Anointing of the Sick now is that the English translations of the liturgies after Vatican II provided actual properly-translated English names of the Latin rites, instead of casual ad hoc translations, some of which were subject to a lot of language drift (how many people know what unction is? In my experience hardly anyone today knows it means "anointing with oil"). The other part of the reason is that with the significant advances in medical science since WWII, people live a lot longer, survive a lot more things, and undergo much more serious surgeries with excellent chance of survival, so there's been a renewed emphasis on the sacrament as a comfort to those who are sick or facing serious medical issues. In the past you'd often face your first serious medical issue and die. These days, people survive burst appendices, emergency C-sections, cancer, horrific car accidents, terrible battlefield wounds, etc., quite frequently, and those are all appropriate times for an anointing, so there's a lot more anointing of the sick who survive, and a lot less anointing of the dying who don't.
Finally, while there are fewer priests in the US than in the past and it's a big problem, I think more people actually have access to last rites than in the past because most Americans now die in hospitals or hospice, and there they literally do have priests (or liturgical ministers who can administer some sacraments) on call 24 hours a day in rotating shifts, so it's actually kind-of unusual for parish priests (or Protestant ministers located at a church) to be woken in the middle of the night, since there's a hospital chaplain on call. My friends in ministry say the chaplains have a lot of experience of when someone's near the end, and stay in contact with the patient's pastor (if the patient wants their own pastor) and they're able to give them a couple days' notice so they can make a scheduled visit, and then the hospital chaplain usually is there for the actual death (which many families prefer since the chaplain can help with the hospital parts, and they've been dealing with the chaplain for days or weeks so they're familiar). Local pastors mostly only get called out in the middle of the night for horrific accidents, close friends, or children.
If you have ultra short confession times, try another parish, I have literally never run into that. Mostly since so few people go to confession these days, the priest is like "STAY AND CHAT, I'M REALLY BORED, ARE YOU SURE YOU DON'T HAVE MORE SINS?" Like if you just want to hang out with a priest, Saturday confession is a great time to do it, there's nobody there.
Fewer churches do have the closet-style confessionals than in the past, though, because they're theologically questionable and not really true to the history of the sacrament; it's pretty common these days to just have some chairs set up in the sanctuary where you talk face-to-face with the priest. Although if you want to get real historical about it, you'd be doing the confessing in front of the entire congregation in public; private confession is a early Irish innovation from when they weren't really in contact with the rest of the Church, and its existence as the norm is really a Reformation-era change. (And if you want to get REALLY old-timey about it, you'd only be able to get absolution once in your whole life, which is how it ended up as part of the Last Rites, because you HAD to get that confession in there before you died but you definitely didn't want to use it up too early in case you sinned again.) And while closets were already theologically out of fashion (so new ones weren't really being built), a lot of dioceses and parishes stopped closet-style confessionals after the sexual abuse scandals; too many possibilities for abuse.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:30 AM on April 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
good people get to travel, anywhere they want, whenever they want; bad people, though, are "stuck in their graves forever".
Doesn't a similar idea (that sinners, after death, will be trapped in their rotting bodies, aware of the agony of decay) also occur in Islam?
posted by acb at 9:38 AM on April 1, 2018
Doesn't a similar idea (that sinners, after death, will be trapped in their rotting bodies, aware of the agony of decay) also occur in Islam?
posted by acb at 9:38 AM on April 1, 2018
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posted by Beholder at 2:01 AM on March 30, 2018 [17 favorites]