Wow, we can’t believe people are spending 36 hours in a casino

April 26, 2018 5:45 PM

Extremist propaganda, dangerous hoaxes, videos of tasered rats—the company is having its worst year ever. Except financially: YouTube’s Plan to Clean Up the Mess That Made It Rich

Much like Facebook and Twitter, however, YouTube has long prioritized growth over safety. Hany Farid, senior adviser to the Counter Extremism Project, which works with internet companies to stamp out child pornography and terrorist messaging, says that of the companies he works with, “Google is the least receptive.” With each safety mishap, he says, YouTube acts freshly shocked. “It’s like a Las Vegas casino saying, ‘Wow, we can’t believe people are spending 36 hours in a casino.’ It’s designed like that.”

That’s not how Google or YouTube see things. Over the past year, YouTube has made the most sweeping changes since its early days, removing videos it deemed inappropriate and stripping away the advertising from others. But to date, both the video-sharing service and its corporate parent have struggled to articulate how their plan will make things better. Only recently, as Washington has edged closer to training its regulatory eye on Silicon Valley, did YouTube executives agree to walk Bloomberg Businessweek through its proposed fixes and explain how the site got to this point. Conversations with more than a dozen people at YouTube, some of whom asked not to be identified while discussing sensitive internal matters, reveal a company still grappling to reach a balance between contributors’ freedom of expression and society’s need to protect itself.

posted by not_the_water (32 comments total)

I wish I could curate YouTube to show only 100 or so channels I like, which are informative, basically factually correct, and not insane.

The problem is every time I'm watching, the "Next Up" videos always end up being bizarre conspiracy theories or hoaxes or misogynistic garbage. I'd never let a kid or even a teenager have access to YouTube alone.
posted by miyabo at 6:06 PM on April 26, 2018 [22 favorites]

In my eyes, the problem is that there is a "Next Up" video. YouTube is not in a position with good incentives to nudge what activity you do after watching a video. Optimizing that activity for number of ad views or time spent watching is not something that will lead to good outcomes for watchers, regardless of how many hacks they put onto it to placate outrage.

It would be better for people to choose what to do after watching a video without input from YouTube.

(Needless to say, this is not the only problem.)
posted by value of information at 6:18 PM on April 26, 2018 [18 favorites]

You know, maybe one day — just maybe — Silicon Valley might pick up on the notion that "growth prioritized over safety" is the philosophy of the cancer cell.
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:23 PM on April 26, 2018 [85 favorites]

I wish I could curate YouTube to show only 100 or so channels I like, which are informative, basically factually correct, and not insane.

The closest you can do is log in, subscribe to those channels, turn off the auto up next, and ignore all of the algorithm-suggested videos. But even that isn't great. A way to share lists of good curated content would be great, but YouTube would muck it up by making it some kind of engagement-driven social feature.
posted by peeedro at 6:31 PM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]

I don't mind the "next up" when it's literally the next in series, because AFAICT there's no way to reorder playlists or sort by chronological order. But I agree that in most other circumstances, best to have autoplay disabled and ignore next-up.
posted by inconstant at 6:33 PM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]

The worst thing about the way YouTube presents itself, suggestion-wise, is that there’s no “don’t show me this garbage ever again” button. Considering its fabled algorithms are supposedly so obsessed with pushing things at you that you’ll like, you’d think maybe they’d have some sort of process of elimination baked in. Nope. God forbid you actually click through to a video you know you won’t like just to give it a thumbs-down, because then the algorithms will completely disregard your rating and just assume that because you “viewed” that shit, you’ll definitely want to view all this other shit just like it.

Does anybody ever actually use autoplay? Why does it even exist? And it’s turned on by default! Why!? So you’ll “watch” the suggested videos without even choosing to, which, I mean, that’s a bit of a dumbass feedback loop poisoning the algorithms, right? “I suggested this video, and they watched it! Therefore THIS WILL BE THEIR TOP SUGGESTED VIDEO FROM NOW ON.”
posted by Sys Rq at 6:50 PM on April 26, 2018 [20 favorites]

I was just gonna mention that: I never use auto-play, because I'm not just sitting there staring at my phone/computer while on YouTube. I'm looking for specific videos, so I do a search every time.
posted by gucci mane at 6:58 PM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]

FWIW, if you mouse over an item in the "Up Next" column, and click on the "3 dots" menu, one of the options is "Not Interested." I have no idea if it has any effect on future suggestions, but it exists.
posted by gwint at 7:01 PM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]

you can even select "don't show me this channel"
posted by thelonius at 7:06 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]

"YouTube also pledged that a human moderator would review every video in its Google Preferred program for advertisers before any ad was attached." (from the article)
Good move, bring the humans in.
posted by clavdivs at 7:06 PM on April 26, 2018

Would it be legal according to the ToS to make a separate site with a curated set of channels, that could only view those channels?
posted by miyabo at 7:17 PM on April 26, 2018

Does anybody ever actually use autoplay? Why does it even exist? And it’s turned on by default!

I would guess that most people experience youtube with auto play precisely because it is turned on by default. And it doesn’t usually bother me, because it’s suggesting another woodworking video or bass cover or cats Cats CATS!
If I watch a racist video it’s because it was linked from somewhere else and I don’t just kick back and keep watching. Obviously youtube is prioritizing profits over responsibility but I don’t think that the concept of suggesting related videos is automatically bad. It depends on how it actually works in practice. Even Metafilter suggests related posts.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:19 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]

I like autoplay when I'm listening to music and I don't want to keep having to manually click next every time a song ends.
posted by dilaudid at 7:24 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]

FWIW, if you mouse over an item in the "Up Next" column, and click on the "3 dots" menu, one of the options is "Not Interested."

I guess if you’re using a desktop with a mouse, that might be handy. In the mobile app, there’s “Add to Watch later” (which could probably be labeled more succinctly, but, hey), “Add to Playlist,” and “Share.” Those are the only options. In Safari, there are no dots whatsoever.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:30 PM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]

YouTube definitely needs to have an option to block channels. I can block assholes on Twitter, why can't I block assholes' videos on YouTube?
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 8:16 PM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]

I have ublock origin filter out the div layers for 'next up' and comments. Fairly straightforward, though fine tuning is needed whenever YouTube alters its UI.

It's bullshit, doesn't fix anything, and no one should have to, but it lets me watch British panel shows with sanity intact.
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 8:31 PM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]

I guess if you’re using a desktop with a mouse, that might be handy. In the mobile app, there’s “Add to Watch later” (which could probably be labeled more succinctly, but, hey), “Add to Playlist,” and “Share.” Those are the only options. In Safari, there are no dots whatsoever.

That's not been my experience, and I just double-checked (on Android). Three dots, and 'not interested'. Even on mobile there's an option to 'tell us why' and i can choose between: Already Watched | I don't like the video | Not interested in channel | Not interested in recommendations based on {a video I've watched}. I use it liberally, my algorithms pretty good to me.

a lot of the specific complaints here in the thread feels outdated.
posted by cendawanita at 9:21 PM on April 26, 2018 [2 favorites]

I've used the "not interested" function for what feels like a couple of years now. It does nothing.

I'm sure a google engineer could come along with a deck and explain point by point how each time I tell it "I'm not interested in this video. I'm not interested in anything from this channel. I'm not interested in any recommendations based on this video.", the wunder-algorithm learns and adapts and this weight gets applied to this weight and in the glorious future google won't have to employ any filthy stinking humans with their germs and their retirement savings.

But the practical outcome is that it does nothing. I still get constant recommendations for RedLetterMedia videos. I still get constant recommendations for "gaming" channels which are little more than men in serious need of a wash delivering spittle-flecked rants about "females". The same videos. No matter how often I tell them.

I've given up now and installed Video Blocker in Firefox. I hit something first with the three dots of worthlessness, and when it inevitably shows up again I just let the add-on block it permanently. At least, permanently for that browser. On that one PC. It of course does not extend to the other places I use this account, like my phone and my TV. Not much I can really do there.
posted by dumbland at 10:39 PM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]

Give the app NewPipe a try. Import a subscription list and....that's all I see.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 10:56 PM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]

A way to share lists of good curated content would be great

Why yes, yes it would.
posted by flabdablet at 11:03 PM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]

"YouTube also pledged that a human moderator would review every video in its Google Preferred program for advertisers before any ad was attached." (from the article)
Good move, bring the humans in.

They already do this and it's killing the legit channels that get most of their views in the first 24 hours.
posted by grahamparks at 12:26 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]

I routinely fall asleep to Youtube videos. If autoplay has turned itself on, I usually wake up the next morning to spittle-flecked lunacy gibbering at me -- Qanon videos. Pizzagate videos. Alex Jones. Jerome Corsi. Liz (shudder) Crokin.

Youtube's algorithm sucks. The only virtue is that I've confused it enough to make the recommended videos list amusingly 'diverse'.
posted by jrochest at 1:48 AM on April 27, 2018

Huh, every time I fall asleep in front of youtube in autoplay, I wake up to Engineering Explained or some technical minecraft player. Youtube basically never recommends any bullshit to me, and the "not interested" thing makes it go away pronto when it does. I guess I'm helped by the fact that my boyfriend and I are the only two people using this Google account and computer, so it's not bleeding bullshit into the recommendations based on anyone else's Internet activity (though I'm sure my boyfriend gets annoyed at the car engineering guy with his fucking whiteboard, again!)
posted by Dysk at 2:35 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]

I would guess that most people experience youtube with auto play precisely because it is turned on by default. And it doesn’t usually bother me, because it’s suggesting another woodworking video or bass cover or cats Cats CATS!

I use the youtube app on Roku. If I disable the autoplay it close captions videos. Or at least it did the first hundred or so times I tried to disable autoplay.
posted by srboisvert at 4:55 AM on April 27, 2018

Youtube basically never recommends any bullshit to me, and the "not interested" thing makes it go away pronto when it does.

Same here, but when I accidentally watch anything that's tangential to any kind of controversy, I'm horrified at the bilge in the related sidebar
posted by thelonius at 5:10 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]

Lauren Weinstein has been vocal about the garbage videos on YouTube for a long time now. (A recent blog post on the topic.)

He's not an onion-in-the-belt shouter-at-clouds, but someone with a history online and a history with Google -- so when he calls out those weird videos "for kids" that are so creepy, or the trend in "dare" videos, or (especially) the crap from hate groups, it's from the position of someone who knows what he's on about. He doesn't want a plain vanilla Stepford Video Feed, but he does want Google to reject the blatant hate speech, the blatant creeping-on-kids stuff, and the stupid dares that dumb people seem drawn to like moths to a flame.

If Google wants to get rich doing this, and tells everyone that their algorithms are Teh Smrtest, then they need to demonstrate it.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:50 AM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]

a lot of the specific complaints here in the thread feels outdated

Not outdated. Just old. We’ve been complaining about the same things for a long time, and every “fix” has been half-assed and counterproductive. The problems aren’t gone, they’re just a little different. Different meaning worse.

Google is every bit as bad as Yahoo when it comes to buying stuff and ruining it.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:21 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]

YouTube, like Reddit, (and the world in general), are what you make of them by means of your personal choices. Use an ad-blocker, turn off Auto-play, and you can pursue what interests you might have without being harassed by bullshit. I'm a musician and lately I've been listening to lots of old European art music, commonly known as classical music. Thanks to YouTube I can hear and download music which has been out-of-print for years, listen to concert recordings which have never been released commercially, and enjoy the many excellent musicians out there who lack the non-musical traits which attract commercial interest. I use youtube-dl to save just the audio of recordings I like.
posted by Agave at 7:24 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]

YouTube, like Reddit, (and the world in general), are what you make of them by means of your personal choices.

Asking individual users to do the work of filtering out all the garbage and hateful propaganda is effectively saying we should wholeheartedly embrace it, because the majority of users will never in a million years do anything about it. I may filter out Nazi propaganda from my browser, but that doesn't do me much good when the success of that propaganda enables Nazis to take power and threaten my life. The problem is systemic. Advocating a fix at the individual level is 1) allowing the system to abdicate responsibility and 2) never going to work. It's like saying we can fix climate change by lecturing individuals to reduce/reuse/recycle, while ignoring systemic solutions like removing fossil fuels from power generation and transportation.

Online video sharing sites (of sufficient size and reach) are basically a utility now, and should be regulated as such. Let's shift the Overton window on how we conceive of the problem.
posted by hyperbolic at 8:17 AM on April 27, 2018 [8 favorites]

"Asking individual users to do the work of filtering out all the garbage and hateful propaganda is effectively saying we should wholeheartedly embrace it, because the majority of users will never in a million years do anything about it."

I'm not too awfully concerned about "the majority of users". I have my own aesthetic preferences and I do what I can do to satisfy them. If others have trouble doing the same, perhaps a few more years of net experience will help them.
posted by Agave at 11:24 AM on April 27, 2018

YouTube, like Reddit, (and the world in general), are what you make of them by means of your personal choices.

I will pile on by pointing out all of the troubling videos that are available on the YouTube Kids app, all of which are presumed to be appropriate but many of which are not.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:02 PM on April 27, 2018

The algorithms know what's "related," but they don't know why. Every so often, I'll start watching Frank Howarth's videos (thanks, MeFi!) and I'll get other wood-turning videos, or maybe other woodworking stuff, but it always stays in a pretty tight group.

On the other hand, I don't think YouTube can tell the difference between "games," "gaming," and "gamers," because a chill League of Legends video from SoloRenektonOnly segues into a shrill League video from someone I don't know, to one of their non LoL videos, to gamergate red pill stuff surprisingly easily.

Maybe YouTube needs a "why do you like this video"? feature after you like a video, so they can learn to categorize things and better learn *why* you're watching.

Are you watching that video because you like the game, or because of who's playing it?
posted by explosion at 12:33 PM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]