We Sat Down With the ‘Arrested Development’ Cast. It Got Raw
May 23, 2018 3:24 PM Subscribe
Sopan Deb of The New York Times interviewed several cast members of “Arrested Development” about the upcoming 5th season of the show, debuting May 29th. When the conversation turned to the recent sexual harassment allegations against Jeffrey Tambor and, more specifically, an incident where Tambor was verbally abusive to co-star Jessica Walter, things got rather awkward, with several male actors on the show coming to the defense of.....Jeffrey Tambor. (SLNYT)
They say multiple times that they're a family; I guess the "dysfunctional and abusive" part is implied. Makes me glad I never got around to watching their show.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:32 PM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:32 PM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
Sigh.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:33 PM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:33 PM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
That entire interview stinks of “Actually it's about ethics in gaming journalism”
Ugh.
posted by Fizz at 3:33 PM on May 23, 2018
Ugh.
posted by Fizz at 3:33 PM on May 23, 2018
What Atom Eyes said.
TL;DR: BATEMAN: "Not to belittle what happened. But I'm going to undermine Jessica Walter's horrible experience for the rest of the interview, because Tambor's behavior wasn't a problem for me personally."
(Oh and Alia Shawkat was also on Transparent, btw.)
posted by bigendian at 3:34 PM on May 23, 2018 [42 favorites]
TL;DR: BATEMAN: "Not to belittle what happened. But I'm going to undermine Jessica Walter's horrible experience for the rest of the interview, because Tambor's behavior wasn't a problem for me personally."
(Oh and Alia Shawkat was also on Transparent, btw.)
posted by bigendian at 3:34 PM on May 23, 2018 [42 favorites]
it's amazing how close "I've just given it up" comes to "I've just given up."
speaking strictly about that interview only, Bateman comes across significantly worse than Tambor does. an amazing achievement.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:37 PM on May 23, 2018 [27 favorites]
speaking strictly about that interview only, Bateman comes across significantly worse than Tambor does. an amazing achievement.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:37 PM on May 23, 2018 [27 favorites]
those motherFUCKERS
posted by medusa at 3:37 PM on May 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by medusa at 3:37 PM on May 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
“There's always misogyny in the banana stand.”
posted by Fizz at 3:39 PM on May 23, 2018 [43 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 3:39 PM on May 23, 2018 [43 favorites]
WALTER [THROUGH TEARS]: Let me just say one thing that I just realized in this conversation. I have to let go of being angry at him. He never crossed the line on our show, with any, you know, sexual whatever. Verbally, yes, he harassed me, but he did apologize. I have to let it go. [Turns to Tambor.] And I have to give you a chance to, you know, for us to be friends again.This is exactly what the women I know who have been abused and harassed say when they get ABSOLUTELY FUCKING ZERO support and backup from their coworkers. They have no choice but to turn it into an opportunity for personal growth and 'letting go' of their feelings.
KILL EVERYTHING WITH FIRE
posted by medusa at 3:40 PM on May 23, 2018 [176 favorites]
NO GODDAMMIT DO NOT RUIN THIS, MEN
NOT THIS
those fucking assholes
posted by schadenfrau at 3:43 PM on May 23, 2018 [32 favorites]
NOT THIS
those fucking assholes
posted by schadenfrau at 3:43 PM on May 23, 2018 [32 favorites]
“I have to let go of being angry at him,” Ms. Walter said through tears, as Mr. Tambor sat a few feet away. In “almost 60 years of working, I’ve never had anybody yell at me like that on a set and it’s hard to deal with, but I’m over it now.”
When Mr. Bateman painted Mr. Tambor’s behavior as typical of certain performers, Ms. Shawkat interjected: “But that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable.”
Good for her.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 3:50 PM on May 23, 2018 [61 favorites]
When Mr. Bateman painted Mr. Tambor’s behavior as typical of certain performers, Ms. Shawkat interjected: “But that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable.”
Good for her.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 3:50 PM on May 23, 2018 [61 favorites]
A Big Fuck Off to the Men of Arrested Development
posted by zombieflanders at 3:52 PM on May 23, 2018 [43 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 3:52 PM on May 23, 2018 [43 favorites]
I mean. Wow. That transcript is almost great writing, in a way. You could see the scene unfold. You could see every dismissive joke, every laughing derail, every time one of them sensed Jessica Walter might actually want to talk about her own experience and just jumped in to talk over her when the last one had said his piece. It was real teamwork, the way they kept explaining, the way they kept finding ways to say they were on his side.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:53 PM on May 23, 2018 [55 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 3:53 PM on May 23, 2018 [55 favorites]
Walter attempts to be heard, over and over, and her being almost completely dismissed has my blood bubbling pretty actively right now.
posted by Twinge at 3:54 PM on May 23, 2018 [39 favorites]
posted by Twinge at 3:54 PM on May 23, 2018 [39 favorites]
NO GODDAMMIT DO NOT RUIN THIS, MEN
Sorry, but I think it came pre-ruined. It sounds like the work atmosphere was toxic to begin with and show creator Mitchell Hurwitz, who did nothing to address the situation at the time, has now actively doubled-down by embracing Tambor's return to the show with open arms.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:55 PM on May 23, 2018 [12 favorites]
Sorry, but I think it came pre-ruined. It sounds like the work atmosphere was toxic to begin with and show creator Mitchell Hurwitz, who did nothing to address the situation at the time, has now actively doubled-down by embracing Tambor's return to the show with open arms.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:55 PM on May 23, 2018 [12 favorites]
the abject humiliation of being bullied in this hostile, threatening, arrogant group way by a roomful of men who all but Tambor are young enough to be her sons, and who still feel so acutely and so pleasurably how much more powerful they are than her.
people really love to say this glib thing about older women being invisible, to which I always yell "to whom?" etc. but one thing I do believe is that men want and need older women to be both invisible and silent. men get very, very angry when forced to see and hear them. the part of the interview where bateman et al. try to hustle the jokes right along and forget the question was every asked, and then Walter MAKES the NYT repeat it and elaborate on what they were getting at, it's incredible. both that she had the will and the force to do that, and how nasty and angry bateman et al. got, in direct response to her refusal to go along with his/their joint male decision to ignore the question into oblivion.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:57 PM on May 23, 2018 [104 favorites]
people really love to say this glib thing about older women being invisible, to which I always yell "to whom?" etc. but one thing I do believe is that men want and need older women to be both invisible and silent. men get very, very angry when forced to see and hear them. the part of the interview where bateman et al. try to hustle the jokes right along and forget the question was every asked, and then Walter MAKES the NYT repeat it and elaborate on what they were getting at, it's incredible. both that she had the will and the force to do that, and how nasty and angry bateman et al. got, in direct response to her refusal to go along with his/their joint male decision to ignore the question into oblivion.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:57 PM on May 23, 2018 [104 favorites]
I want to burn this shit down.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:58 PM on May 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 3:58 PM on May 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
Holy shit. Holy shit. How Jessica Walter doesn't just walk off set...actually, I wholly understand how. But she is breaking my heart and I hope she knows she's believed and supported and for real, do you need us to crowdfund some kind of contract-breaking fee? We will do that, Jessica Walter.
posted by kalimac at 4:00 PM on May 23, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by kalimac at 4:00 PM on May 23, 2018 [18 favorites]
And these are supposed to be some of the good ones
Like imagine being Amber Tamblyn right now. Does this happen to all women in het relationships? Do you all have a moment where you see that the guy you’ve made a life with is another woman’s problem?
posted by schadenfrau at 4:00 PM on May 23, 2018 [37 favorites]
Like imagine being Amber Tamblyn right now. Does this happen to all women in het relationships? Do you all have a moment where you see that the guy you’ve made a life with is another woman’s problem?
posted by schadenfrau at 4:00 PM on May 23, 2018 [37 favorites]
For anyone reading along: we’re all flipping out because it really is that bad, and because it’s also a perfect example of the kind of group bullying and gaslighting that women have to deal with whenever there’s more than one man present
Like this is half horror, and half shudder of recognition, because it’s such a potent universal
Ugh I’m actually tensing up just thinking about it
posted by schadenfrau at 4:02 PM on May 23, 2018 [66 favorites]
Like this is half horror, and half shudder of recognition, because it’s such a potent universal
Ugh I’m actually tensing up just thinking about it
posted by schadenfrau at 4:02 PM on May 23, 2018 [66 favorites]
& you know how you can cry from sadness/hurt or you can cry from anger or from happiness or from lots of other emotions and they're all a little bit different?
I can't pretend to know what she was feeling in the moment and I don't claim to. but that's what humiliation crying sounds like.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:03 PM on May 23, 2018 [21 favorites]
I can't pretend to know what she was feeling in the moment and I don't claim to. but that's what humiliation crying sounds like.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:03 PM on May 23, 2018 [21 favorites]
another vote for WOW i am glad i never got into this show.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:06 PM on May 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 4:06 PM on May 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
Holy shit. Holy shit. How Jessica Walter doesn't just walk off set...actually, I wholly understand how
I mean she said it herself. Nobody casts older women. Nobody did fifteen years ago, not that many more people do now. for Tambor, there'll always be another show and another set of people to abuse. but for a show, there'll always be another woman. you don't value what you can replace so cheaply. why take care to treat it with respect? in both cases.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:06 PM on May 23, 2018 [65 favorites]
I mean she said it herself. Nobody casts older women. Nobody did fifteen years ago, not that many more people do now. for Tambor, there'll always be another show and another set of people to abuse. but for a show, there'll always be another woman. you don't value what you can replace so cheaply. why take care to treat it with respect? in both cases.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:06 PM on May 23, 2018 [65 favorites]
Welp! I know what I need to know about this new season.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 4:12 PM on May 23, 2018 [21 favorites]
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 4:12 PM on May 23, 2018 [21 favorites]
Like imagine being Amber Tamblyn right now.
Yeah this isn't her first go-around with Cross looking like an asshole
posted by JauntyFedora at 4:22 PM on May 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
Yeah this isn't her first go-around with Cross looking like an asshole
posted by JauntyFedora at 4:22 PM on May 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
It's interesting listening to the excerpt the NYT chose to pull out--she makes this shaky, upset, I have no choice but to let it go comment, and then she makes this joke--"It's hard to deal with, but I'm over it now. I just let it go right here, for the New York Times." And Bateman sort of chuckles and says "she didn't give it up for anyone else."
Well, you jackasses, no one but the reporter in that room asked, and she had to haul the conversation back to it quite a few times, and also when she was trying to get that comment out she had to fucking fight through a chorus of voices to get the floor. It's clearly not like she didn't want to talk about it--but it's hard talking about something when people hurry to change the subject rather than listen.
That's... as queenofbithynia says, it's humiliation crying, it's exhaustion crying, it's the kind of crying when you're desperately trying to hold your shit together and no one is going to be able to successfully back you up so you're just trying to get through a discussion and not break.
And then the reporter comes back to her and asks if she wouldn't work with him again, and she's very, very quick to say "oh, of course I would." Because what other jobs are there? And who will hire her?
posted by sciatrix at 4:48 PM on May 23, 2018 [48 favorites]
Well, you jackasses, no one but the reporter in that room asked, and she had to haul the conversation back to it quite a few times, and also when she was trying to get that comment out she had to fucking fight through a chorus of voices to get the floor. It's clearly not like she didn't want to talk about it--but it's hard talking about something when people hurry to change the subject rather than listen.
That's... as queenofbithynia says, it's humiliation crying, it's exhaustion crying, it's the kind of crying when you're desperately trying to hold your shit together and no one is going to be able to successfully back you up so you're just trying to get through a discussion and not break.
And then the reporter comes back to her and asks if she wouldn't work with him again, and she's very, very quick to say "oh, of course I would." Because what other jobs are there? And who will hire her?
posted by sciatrix at 4:48 PM on May 23, 2018 [48 favorites]
And these are supposed to be some of the good ones
It’s so stupidly easy to mistake the artist for the brand.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:48 PM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
It’s so stupidly easy to mistake the artist for the brand.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:48 PM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I'm okay letting Arrested Development go. I liked it once, but maybe the way to deal with peak TV is to winnow down your choices by not watching anything with a known abusive asshole.
posted by dinty_moore at 4:56 PM on May 23, 2018 [39 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 4:56 PM on May 23, 2018 [39 favorites]
@brocklesnitch: I mean it's one interview Michael, what could it cost. Your reputation?
posted by Merus at 4:59 PM on May 23, 2018 [28 favorites]
posted by Merus at 4:59 PM on May 23, 2018 [28 favorites]
All I can do is NOT WATCH this show. I can' t make them admit their mistakes but, I don't have to help make them money. The kind of people who watch their show are the kind of people who care about this stuff. How stupid can you get?
posted by Megafly at 4:59 PM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Megafly at 4:59 PM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
I assume they've finished filming the entire season by now, otherwise you just know the writers would be racing to their laptops to insert dozens of knowing and hilarious meta-references to Lucille Bluth being interrupted by all of the male characters while trying to speak.
posted by Atom Eyes at 5:00 PM on May 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 5:00 PM on May 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
And Bateman sort of chuckles and says "she didn't give it up for anyone else."
it really was especially horrible that he saw nothing to respond in the content or the emotion of what she just said but he sure noticed the phrasing possibilities and jumped in to make a really repellent aggression-submission sex joke out of it. sounded like an automatic reflex to me but I do not at all care.
signed, someone who enjoys all kinds of cheap double entendres but who will write someone off faster for saying "give it up" about sex than you'd even believe.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:09 PM on May 23, 2018 [47 favorites]
it really was especially horrible that he saw nothing to respond in the content or the emotion of what she just said but he sure noticed the phrasing possibilities and jumped in to make a really repellent aggression-submission sex joke out of it. sounded like an automatic reflex to me but I do not at all care.
signed, someone who enjoys all kinds of cheap double entendres but who will write someone off faster for saying "give it up" about sex than you'd even believe.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:09 PM on May 23, 2018 [47 favorites]
And these are supposed to be some of the good ones
No they weren't. Pedophilia was a huge plot point of season 4. Mental retardation was a huge plot point of season 3 (I think?).
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:11 PM on May 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
No they weren't. Pedophilia was a huge plot point of season 4. Mental retardation was a huge plot point of season 3 (I think?).
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:11 PM on May 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Jfc that was painful. I kept hoping Jessica Walter would pick up her chair and whack Bateman over the head with it.
posted by mondo dentro at 5:13 PM on May 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by mondo dentro at 5:13 PM on May 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
They are so fucking horrible, and they play off each other and encourage each other, and they - and so many other people - are totally blind to how ugly and cruel and gross they are.
posted by rtha at 5:15 PM on May 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by rtha at 5:15 PM on May 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
Goddamn, it really is that bad. This isn't just indelicate phrasing from otherwise-well-intentioned people. I'm embarrassed for and infuriated by Bateman in particular.
posted by Riki tiki at 5:17 PM on May 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Riki tiki at 5:17 PM on May 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
My friends and I had been commenting on the weekend about how even in our progressive circles Tambor's abuse wasn't really hanging over Arrested Development. It was like everyone had just decided they liked the show enough to give him a pass on this one.
No more.
posted by yellowbinder at 5:18 PM on May 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
No more.
posted by yellowbinder at 5:18 PM on May 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
Has anyone told Tambour he's about the ninth most significant cast member yet?
Because, like... he's always been extremely optional.
posted by rokusan at 5:20 PM on May 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
Because, like... he's always been extremely optional.
posted by rokusan at 5:20 PM on May 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
“I have to let go of being angry at him,” Ms. Walter said through tears, as Mr. Tambor sat a few feet away. In “almost 60 years of working, I’ve never had anybody yell at me like that on a set and it’s hard to deal with, but I’m over it now.”
When Mr. Bateman painted Mr. Tambor’s behavior as typical of certain performers, Ms. Shawkat interjected: “But that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable.”
Ugh, I feel like, too, that this illuminates a basic problem in getting men to take harassment seriously, which is that you have to walk this line of convincing them that it happens frequently enough to need a large scale solution, but not so frequently that it's either unstoppable or normal. If you say it's a common problem, well, everyone loses their temper at some point, right? Even women? Even you, you complaining [woman]? But if you say how unusual and beyond the pale it was, well, come on, it's beyond the pale. Act of God, thousand year flood, nothing to be done, move on.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 5:22 PM on May 23, 2018 [25 favorites]
When Mr. Bateman painted Mr. Tambor’s behavior as typical of certain performers, Ms. Shawkat interjected: “But that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable.”
Ugh, I feel like, too, that this illuminates a basic problem in getting men to take harassment seriously, which is that you have to walk this line of convincing them that it happens frequently enough to need a large scale solution, but not so frequently that it's either unstoppable or normal. If you say it's a common problem, well, everyone loses their temper at some point, right? Even women? Even you, you complaining [woman]? But if you say how unusual and beyond the pale it was, well, come on, it's beyond the pale. Act of God, thousand year flood, nothing to be done, move on.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 5:22 PM on May 23, 2018 [25 favorites]
Pedophilia was a huge plot point of season 4. Mental retardation was a huge plot point of season 3 (I think?).
It has always been a stupid and gross show. And a surprisingly unfunny one.
posted by weed donkey at 5:27 PM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
It has always been a stupid and gross show. And a surprisingly unfunny one.
posted by weed donkey at 5:27 PM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
Jason Bateman has been the star of whatever show or movie he's been in since he was in his pre-teens. He has no idea what it's like to be on the end of an abusive rant. Shut the fuck up.
posted by xammerboy at 5:32 PM on May 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by xammerboy at 5:32 PM on May 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
Bateman and Cross spent their time considering how they could support Tambor and what they would do if he was asked to leave, and did so without spending a single moment on how they could support Walter, even though she was the person who had been lashed out at, and who was, in that moment, crying.
And then they talked over the woman who stepped in to say that Tambor's behavior wasn't okay.
Great job, guys.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 5:42 PM on May 23, 2018 [37 favorites]
And then they talked over the woman who stepped in to say that Tambor's behavior wasn't okay.
Great job, guys.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 5:42 PM on May 23, 2018 [37 favorites]
So a practical question: is not rewatching the show or not watching the new season going to help? Like I’m not sure I’ll even be able to stand it — I rewatch it regularly and the last time was post-Transparent and it was difficult to find Tambor funny knowing he’s a piece of shit. But is not watching the show to “punish” Tambor et al by denying the views which make the statistics which prove to execs that stuff like a Season 5 is desirable a good outcome considering how hard an actress like Walter has to fight for roles because ageism outweighs ability?
I’m not looking for a rationalization to watch the show, thats not a decision I need outside input on. What I want to know is does saying “fuck AD” and giving the show up (a sentiment I certainly feel in the bones right now) the right thing to do for Jessica Walter?
posted by griphus at 5:44 PM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
I’m not looking for a rationalization to watch the show, thats not a decision I need outside input on. What I want to know is does saying “fuck AD” and giving the show up (a sentiment I certainly feel in the bones right now) the right thing to do for Jessica Walter?
posted by griphus at 5:44 PM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
It has always been a stupid and gross show. And a surprisingly unfunny one.
It was a very good show in the initial run. consequently, refusing to watch or support any further revival efforts because of Tambor and now Bateman and the rest of them actually does mean something, if a very small and largely symbolic something.
there are things that matter more than watching a good show. you don't think it was a good show, fine. but taking this seriously means more from people who do, or did, think so, and who also understand that its past high quality doesn't mean anything next to this.
[griphus]
What I want to know is does saying “fuck AD” and giving the show up (a sentiment I certainly feel in the bones right now) the right thing to do for Jessica Walter?
Jessica Walter could come out tomorrow morning and ask everybody to send Jason Bateman a $20 bill and a nice fan letter and it would have fuck all to do with what's the right thing to do about sexists, bullies, and abusers. If somebody wants to make an isolated supercut of all her and Shawkat's new scenes in isolation, sure I'll watch it. If anybody wants to blame her for agreeing to work with these awful people when she didn't have to, sure I'll fight them. but you can't seriously worry about Ought I support this shit and these people for her sake, because she's affiliated with it and she's proud of her own professionalism and acting work. No, obviously.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:53 PM on May 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
It was a very good show in the initial run. consequently, refusing to watch or support any further revival efforts because of Tambor and now Bateman and the rest of them actually does mean something, if a very small and largely symbolic something.
there are things that matter more than watching a good show. you don't think it was a good show, fine. but taking this seriously means more from people who do, or did, think so, and who also understand that its past high quality doesn't mean anything next to this.
[griphus]
What I want to know is does saying “fuck AD” and giving the show up (a sentiment I certainly feel in the bones right now) the right thing to do for Jessica Walter?
Jessica Walter could come out tomorrow morning and ask everybody to send Jason Bateman a $20 bill and a nice fan letter and it would have fuck all to do with what's the right thing to do about sexists, bullies, and abusers. If somebody wants to make an isolated supercut of all her and Shawkat's new scenes in isolation, sure I'll watch it. If anybody wants to blame her for agreeing to work with these awful people when she didn't have to, sure I'll fight them. but you can't seriously worry about Ought I support this shit and these people for her sake, because she's affiliated with it and she's proud of her own professionalism and acting work. No, obviously.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:53 PM on May 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
If this show continues in the future, I wonder if they will consider recasting the role of Lucille to avoid tensions, or if season 6 opens at her funeral or something
posted by knoyers at 5:56 PM on May 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by knoyers at 5:56 PM on May 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
I’m not looking for a rationalization to watch the show, thats not a decision I need outside input on. What I want to know is does saying “fuck AD” and giving the show up (a sentiment I certainly feel in the bones right now) the right thing to do for Jessica Walter?
Some info you might need to make this decision:
posted by Going To Maine at 6:00 PM on May 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Some info you might need to make this decision:
- Her other gigs / gigs in the works. (Maybe IMDB can help you here.)
- Assuming the show fails because of this interview, what the show’s failure will do to perception of her ability to work with others and/or future ability to get hired.
- How she’s being paid (Does she get residuals based on the number of times it gets streamed?)
posted by Going To Maine at 6:00 PM on May 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Jesus, the men all just blue themselves.
posted by benzenedream at 6:00 PM on May 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 6:00 PM on May 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
Just a reminder that Netflix has an internal review system. You can leave a review and/or thumbs down and not have to watch the show.
posted by FJT at 6:04 PM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by FJT at 6:04 PM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Just a reminder that Netflix has an internal review system. You can leave a review and/or thumbs down and not have to watch the show.
If only we could do the same in real life with these men. Sadly they keep on getting renewed/retweeted.
posted by Fizz at 6:06 PM on May 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
If only we could do the same in real life with these men. Sadly they keep on getting renewed/retweeted.
posted by Fizz at 6:06 PM on May 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
That's so incredibly awful. My god.
posted by smoke at 6:06 PM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by smoke at 6:06 PM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
and like. as a person who often struggles with empathy and emotional expression in general, i very much understand the urge to defuse emotional situations with shitty jokes, like when someone is talking about how something hurt them badly and you don't know how to respond: do i say i'm sorry? do i say the person who hurt them should be on fire forever? do i ask if there's anything they need? do they want a hug? idk help.
that's not what's happening here. what's happening is that they're mocking her pain. they see her suffering and it's pathetic and stupid and laughable to them and they're totally, completely comfortable in showing this clearly, not just to her, but to everyone with eyes.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:08 PM on May 23, 2018 [66 favorites]
that's not what's happening here. what's happening is that they're mocking her pain. they see her suffering and it's pathetic and stupid and laughable to them and they're totally, completely comfortable in showing this clearly, not just to her, but to everyone with eyes.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:08 PM on May 23, 2018 [66 favorites]
they think that she's weak because she's crying and have no comprehension of the strength it takes a woman to admit these things publicly. they're pathetic.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:09 PM on May 23, 2018 [73 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 6:09 PM on May 23, 2018 [73 favorites]
I'm with queenofbithynia. I've been really looking forward to Season 5. Skipping it will really suck, but watching it at this point would just make me sick. Why the fuck can't people take some responsibility for the shit they do to other people? Is it such a sacrifice for Tambor and his co-stars like Bateman for him to be held accountable for his actions?
posted by tarshish bound at 6:11 PM on May 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by tarshish bound at 6:11 PM on May 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
Makes me glad I never got around to watching their show.
I liked the first three seasons, but season 4 was so bad I couldn't even finish it. I have no interest in watching the show at all anymore because I thought season 4 was terrible before any of this news came out. So I guess I'm glad about that.
posted by wondermouse at 6:17 PM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I liked the first three seasons, but season 4 was so bad I couldn't even finish it. I have no interest in watching the show at all anymore because I thought season 4 was terrible before any of this news came out. So I guess I'm glad about that.
posted by wondermouse at 6:17 PM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
BATEMAN: Again, not to belittle it or excuse it or anything...
NARRATOR: He was.
posted by condour75 at 6:21 PM on May 23, 2018 [113 favorites]
NARRATOR: He was.
posted by condour75 at 6:21 PM on May 23, 2018 [113 favorites]
Jason Bateman was my very first celebrity crush from his Silver Spoons days.
Christ, what an asshole.
posted by kimberussell at 6:23 PM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
Christ, what an asshole.
posted by kimberussell at 6:23 PM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
"It Got Raw" sounds like kind of a misleading headline. When I think "raw," I think of confronting difficult truths head-on, of dropping the mask and speaking straight from the heart. This sounds more like "It Got Abusive."
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:25 PM on May 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:25 PM on May 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
but you can't seriously worry about Ought I support this shit and these people for her sake, because she's affiliated with it and she's proud of her own professionalism and acting work. No, obviously.
I mean that's the thing, the obvious answer is "don't support shit made by abusers" and the route to take here with this particular show to stop supporting it is pretty clear (certainly much clearer now than in the Nielsen days). But I also read a lot about television and television production and the backgrounds behind specific shows and while it doesn't always hit the lows of stuff like this, there's not a single sitcom I've read about that doesn't have misogyny baked into it. Whether it's the writing staff being all men, the people on the commentary talking about an actress' appearance over anything else, interviews with women on cast and crew being extremely and clearly self-censored as to how hard it was to work with the men and so on.
These cultural products that have amazing work in them by women are all infected and I think the reason a lot of us are so fucked up over this one particularly is that women speaking about their acting work generally don't speak as honestly as Walter has here and the love for AD isn't really comparable to a lot of other sitcoms or television shows in general. And television (even television with a showrunner) is always a group effort and the art that comes out of it inherently a product of that group. There's no AD without Jessica Walter, and I don't think anyone could argue that point.
So like let's say tomorrow we find out that the set of Archer is horrible and we all say "fuck Archer" the day after we say "fuck AD." Well, what other body work of Walter's is there where she was able to define a particular character like she has on those two? Like she was pretty good on Saving Grace, sure, and there's a few shows I haven't checked out but there's no other performance by her that matches Lucille Bluth. (And, of course, her not being cast more despite being, imo, the most talented actor on AD is yet another outcome of that same pervasive misogyny.)
Like I bet if we were to ask Heidi Swedberg in a moment of outright honesty whether she'd be cool with people saying "fuck Seinfeld" because of how awfully she was treated on that show and how little she gained from it in exchange, there's a good chance she'd say "yeah, fuck that show." But I can't be so certain about Walter's work as Lucille Bluth on AD and that's what's bugging me.
posted by griphus at 6:36 PM on May 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
I mean that's the thing, the obvious answer is "don't support shit made by abusers" and the route to take here with this particular show to stop supporting it is pretty clear (certainly much clearer now than in the Nielsen days). But I also read a lot about television and television production and the backgrounds behind specific shows and while it doesn't always hit the lows of stuff like this, there's not a single sitcom I've read about that doesn't have misogyny baked into it. Whether it's the writing staff being all men, the people on the commentary talking about an actress' appearance over anything else, interviews with women on cast and crew being extremely and clearly self-censored as to how hard it was to work with the men and so on.
These cultural products that have amazing work in them by women are all infected and I think the reason a lot of us are so fucked up over this one particularly is that women speaking about their acting work generally don't speak as honestly as Walter has here and the love for AD isn't really comparable to a lot of other sitcoms or television shows in general. And television (even television with a showrunner) is always a group effort and the art that comes out of it inherently a product of that group. There's no AD without Jessica Walter, and I don't think anyone could argue that point.
So like let's say tomorrow we find out that the set of Archer is horrible and we all say "fuck Archer" the day after we say "fuck AD." Well, what other body work of Walter's is there where she was able to define a particular character like she has on those two? Like she was pretty good on Saving Grace, sure, and there's a few shows I haven't checked out but there's no other performance by her that matches Lucille Bluth. (And, of course, her not being cast more despite being, imo, the most talented actor on AD is yet another outcome of that same pervasive misogyny.)
Like I bet if we were to ask Heidi Swedberg in a moment of outright honesty whether she'd be cool with people saying "fuck Seinfeld" because of how awfully she was treated on that show and how little she gained from it in exchange, there's a good chance she'd say "yeah, fuck that show." But I can't be so certain about Walter's work as Lucille Bluth on AD and that's what's bugging me.
posted by griphus at 6:36 PM on May 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
I'd watch the two Lucilles show with Maeby and Lindsay and all of their adventures. First thing could be the joint funeral of all the Boy Bluths.
Bye Bye Boy Bluths!
posted by allthinky at 6:41 PM on May 23, 2018 [23 favorites]
Bye Bye Boy Bluths!
posted by allthinky at 6:41 PM on May 23, 2018 [23 favorites]
Is it such a sacrifice for Tambor and his co-stars like Bateman for him to be held accountable for his actions?
After the Transparent debacle, I was just barely willing to assume that Tambor was merely a clueless asshole, not a malicious asshole. The aftermath has definitely proved him to be the latter and what makes me furious about the whole thing is the way he just SHIT all over the work of so many brilliant people, many of whom were getting a rare chance to demonstrate their talents. Jeffrey Tambor is like the unknown friend you take to a party and vouch for and who then smashes up the furniture and pukes on the floor.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:44 PM on May 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
After the Transparent debacle, I was just barely willing to assume that Tambor was merely a clueless asshole, not a malicious asshole. The aftermath has definitely proved him to be the latter and what makes me furious about the whole thing is the way he just SHIT all over the work of so many brilliant people, many of whom were getting a rare chance to demonstrate their talents. Jeffrey Tambor is like the unknown friend you take to a party and vouch for and who then smashes up the furniture and pukes on the floor.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:44 PM on May 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
'Not to belittle it', 'not to excuse it'...
Then don't, asshole.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:48 PM on May 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
Then don't, asshole.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:48 PM on May 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
I’m sorry. “Smashes up the furniture and pukes on the floor” might sound as if I’m comparing genuine attacks on people to the destruction of inanimate objects. It’s a bad metaphor. More like “comes to your party, abuses your guests, and then smashes the furniture and pukes on the floor.”
posted by octobersurprise at 6:58 PM on May 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 6:58 PM on May 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
Assuming the show fails because of this interview, what the show’s failure will do to perception of her ability to work with others and/or future ability to get hired.
How she’s being paid (Does she get residuals based on the number of times it gets streamed?)
I think technically from a blackmail POV, if she can't keep the job because the show isn't renewed or gets fired from the show for speaking up, what are the odds of her being able to get any other job ever again?
As for the show, I've never liked Tambor or Cross, they always seemed like they'd be angry douchebags IRL and oh, look. I am more there for Maeby. I did like Bateman, but uh, not so much now. I don't know if I can stomach watching now either. Maeby? (har)
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:00 PM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
How she’s being paid (Does she get residuals based on the number of times it gets streamed?)
I think technically from a blackmail POV, if she can't keep the job because the show isn't renewed or gets fired from the show for speaking up, what are the odds of her being able to get any other job ever again?
As for the show, I've never liked Tambor or Cross, they always seemed like they'd be angry douchebags IRL and oh, look. I am more there for Maeby. I did like Bateman, but uh, not so much now. I don't know if I can stomach watching now either. Maeby? (har)
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:00 PM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
I enjoyed Arrested Development. I don't think I'll be able to watch it again without thinking of this interview, and especially Bateman's execrable behavior.
To me the question isn't whether you should "punish" the male cast of AD (minus Michael Cera, who wasn't there and therefore whose asshole status remains undetermined) by not watching it. Your individual choice to watch or not watch will have essentially no effect on them. It's a question of whether you can stomach watching these men act, knowing how they treat their female co-star and their crew. I don't think I can.
posted by biogeo at 7:10 PM on May 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
To me the question isn't whether you should "punish" the male cast of AD (minus Michael Cera, who wasn't there and therefore whose asshole status remains undetermined) by not watching it. Your individual choice to watch or not watch will have essentially no effect on them. It's a question of whether you can stomach watching these men act, knowing how they treat their female co-star and their crew. I don't think I can.
posted by biogeo at 7:10 PM on May 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
all other considerations aside, michael cera's facial hair is a war crime
posted by poffin boffin at 7:19 PM on May 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 7:19 PM on May 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
I knew there was an underlying reason in the DNA of this show explaining why I always intensely hated it.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 7:20 PM on May 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by jeff-o-matic at 7:20 PM on May 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
's a question of whether you can stomach watching these men act, knowing how they treat their female co-star and their crew. I don't think I can.
I love television these days. It's getting me through. Bojack Horseman is like, a gift. I loved the original AD and we are currently (well we *were*) watching the remixed cut of the first Netflix season.
This is like a hand reaching through a mirror or something. I do not want to any more shittiness to cross my view and now I can't unsee it. Milkshake Fucks.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 7:21 PM on May 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
I love television these days. It's getting me through. Bojack Horseman is like, a gift. I loved the original AD and we are currently (well we *were*) watching the remixed cut of the first Netflix season.
This is like a hand reaching through a mirror or something. I do not want to any more shittiness to cross my view and now I can't unsee it. Milkshake Fucks.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 7:21 PM on May 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
I just tweeted Jason Bateman a link to the NYT article with the question: "Have you no sense of decency, sir? Have you, at long last, no sense of decency?"
I have no illusion it'll accomplish anything but it felt good.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:22 PM on May 23, 2018 [31 favorites]
I have no illusion it'll accomplish anything but it felt good.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:22 PM on May 23, 2018 [31 favorites]
Jessica Walter was nominated for a Golden Globe in 1967. That was two entire years before Jason Fucking Bateman was born. She had an Emmy on her mantle when he was six. He doesn't get to tell her what show biz is like. He gets to sit the fuck down and ask her what show biz is like, and if she tells him to go fuck himself, he gets to say "Thank you, ma'am" and slink the fuck away.
posted by Etrigan at 7:23 PM on May 23, 2018 [166 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 7:23 PM on May 23, 2018 [166 favorites]
I'm glad all of you saw through Arrested Development from the very beginning, but I'm upset that once again, another piece of popular culture I enjoyed and another group of men I thought were reasonable, responsible, sympathetic, and intelligent were shown to be misogynistic.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:25 PM on May 23, 2018 [104 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 7:25 PM on May 23, 2018 [104 favorites]
biogeo, you hit the nail on the head -- I have been a huge AD fan, and after the Transparent news came out I had already realized I couldn't watch the new AD episodes. Not for any public reason but because it made me sad that multiple allegations of sexual abuse had not hurt Jeffrey Tambor's career.
I had been planning to rewatch the series, though, and with today's news, even the classic episodes are going to feel gross to watch. I don't want to watch the filmed record of an abusive work environment.
If anyone is looking for alternative media, Kanopy (which is a free streaming service offered through many U.S. public libraries) has a Directed By Women library with 680 titles.
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 7:27 PM on May 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
I had been planning to rewatch the series, though, and with today's news, even the classic episodes are going to feel gross to watch. I don't want to watch the filmed record of an abusive work environment.
If anyone is looking for alternative media, Kanopy (which is a free streaming service offered through many U.S. public libraries) has a Directed By Women library with 680 titles.
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 7:27 PM on May 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
From the Jezebel link, a comment from someone who worked on the show:
comedyinsider12345678910 5/23/18 7:53pm
I worked on this show. I posted here back in November about Jeffery and Mitch and their abusive behavior and how someone needs to do some digging on Arrested Development, especially the 2 Netflix seasons(4,5), which were particularly difficult and harmful on both cast and crew, like really difficult and harmful, even for the limits or nonexistent limits of Hollywood productions. It’s hard for me to see the press on on this season of Arrested and to know about how Mitch in particular treats people behind the scenes or allows people to be treated, in the case of anyone who comes into contact with Tambor. Jeffery’s first day on set he called the 1st AD a cunt, in front of Mitch and no one batted an eye, except for a PA, who had absolutely no power in that situation. Mitch Hurwitz is a notoriously unhealthy crazy person and really pushes the limits of mental and emotional abuse, in particular how he treats people in the writers room and edit room. Everyone knows how awful he is, like everyone including the people that run fox and netflix, but he gets away with it every time. I also know the production office PAs filed a sexual harassment complaint with Fox HR against another producer on season 5. I’m not totally sure that producer was removed or not. At least Jeffery Tambor is now getting called out on his horrific behavior. I witnessed Jeffery’s meltdown on Jessica, it was so profoundly unprofessional and mean. No one outside of an actor or powerful creative in Hollywood would get to keep their job after an out burst like that. Mitch has never been called out, even though everyone knows about it and no one is willing to do anything about curtailing it. However, I will say Mitch’s behavior is one of the reason the original show was canceled by the network arm of fox, it wasn’t just the ratings, but they used the ratings to still cover for a bunch other reasons. And Mitch was completely off the rails for season 4, but fox studios let he come back for another one. I can tell you the show hasn’t been good since season 2 and even those first two season were good in spite of it’s creator.
And then:
Out of complete paranoia I’m going to disable my account now. I have no power in this town and really need to keep working, so I’ll have to shut my big fat face now. But please look into how abusive working on that show was. Start with the writers room if you can, but it was everywhere and in pretty much every department.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:29 PM on May 23, 2018 [73 favorites]
comedyinsider12345678910 5/23/18 7:53pm
I worked on this show. I posted here back in November about Jeffery and Mitch and their abusive behavior and how someone needs to do some digging on Arrested Development, especially the 2 Netflix seasons(4,5), which were particularly difficult and harmful on both cast and crew, like really difficult and harmful, even for the limits or nonexistent limits of Hollywood productions. It’s hard for me to see the press on on this season of Arrested and to know about how Mitch in particular treats people behind the scenes or allows people to be treated, in the case of anyone who comes into contact with Tambor. Jeffery’s first day on set he called the 1st AD a cunt, in front of Mitch and no one batted an eye, except for a PA, who had absolutely no power in that situation. Mitch Hurwitz is a notoriously unhealthy crazy person and really pushes the limits of mental and emotional abuse, in particular how he treats people in the writers room and edit room. Everyone knows how awful he is, like everyone including the people that run fox and netflix, but he gets away with it every time. I also know the production office PAs filed a sexual harassment complaint with Fox HR against another producer on season 5. I’m not totally sure that producer was removed or not. At least Jeffery Tambor is now getting called out on his horrific behavior. I witnessed Jeffery’s meltdown on Jessica, it was so profoundly unprofessional and mean. No one outside of an actor or powerful creative in Hollywood would get to keep their job after an out burst like that. Mitch has never been called out, even though everyone knows about it and no one is willing to do anything about curtailing it. However, I will say Mitch’s behavior is one of the reason the original show was canceled by the network arm of fox, it wasn’t just the ratings, but they used the ratings to still cover for a bunch other reasons. And Mitch was completely off the rails for season 4, but fox studios let he come back for another one. I can tell you the show hasn’t been good since season 2 and even those first two season were good in spite of it’s creator.
And then:
Out of complete paranoia I’m going to disable my account now. I have no power in this town and really need to keep working, so I’ll have to shut my big fat face now. But please look into how abusive working on that show was. Start with the writers room if you can, but it was everywhere and in pretty much every department.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:29 PM on May 23, 2018 [73 favorites]
GOOD LORD. I hope Jason Bateman, rather than siccing his PR stooge on the NYT with threats, has a real think about this. Not 'Wow they made me look bad' but 'Wow, I made myself look bad.'
posted by taterpie at 7:35 PM on May 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by taterpie at 7:35 PM on May 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
For completeness, the referenced article in The Hollywood Reporter is “‘Lines Got Blurred’: Jeffrey Tambor and an Up-Close Look at Harassment Claims on ‘Transparent’” by Seth Abramovich (May 7, 2018):
[Tambor representative Leslie] Siebert admits to having been aware of her client’s mercurial reputation. “He’s guilty of being an asshole at times, and being, you know, temperamental and moody,” she says. “And he feels awful about it and apologizes, and he’s working on himself. But in the 30 years I’ve worked with him, I’ve never been told about any behavior like what these women are accusing him of.” Tambor acknowledges the occasional outburst on previous shows — he references one “blowup” with actress Jessica Walter on Arrested Development for which he later “profusely apologized” (a rep for Walter says, “Jessica does not wish to talk about Jeffrey Tambor”) — but that something about Maura, his obsessive determination to make her as authentic as possible, brought out the worst in him.posted by Going To Maine at 7:40 PM on May 23, 2018
I had been planning to rewatch the series, though, and with today's news, even the classic episodes are going to feel gross to watch.
My recent rewatch has been giving me a lot to think about with some jokes throughout the show that reaaally look different to me now than they used to as I've gotten better about noticing problematic things, I mentioned this a bit in the FanFare thread for the season 4 remix but it's been on my mind a lot since... I've started to feel like I've always given this show a pass for things that I shouldn't have. Like the depiction of LGBTQ people as only and always a joke, that really leapt out at me this time, when I was a mix of oblivious towards it and glossing over it even though I knew it was wrong only a few years ago. And I was hoping that maybe Hurwitz and the rest had matured since season 4 and things would be different, but then the news that Tambor was not only back but Hurwitz 100% had his back, and then this interview and the comment jenfullmoon excerpted maybe just put the nails in the coffin of my fond feelings for the show.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:52 PM on May 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
My recent rewatch has been giving me a lot to think about with some jokes throughout the show that reaaally look different to me now than they used to as I've gotten better about noticing problematic things, I mentioned this a bit in the FanFare thread for the season 4 remix but it's been on my mind a lot since... I've started to feel like I've always given this show a pass for things that I shouldn't have. Like the depiction of LGBTQ people as only and always a joke, that really leapt out at me this time, when I was a mix of oblivious towards it and glossing over it even though I knew it was wrong only a few years ago. And I was hoping that maybe Hurwitz and the rest had matured since season 4 and things would be different, but then the news that Tambor was not only back but Hurwitz 100% had his back, and then this interview and the comment jenfullmoon excerpted maybe just put the nails in the coffin of my fond feelings for the show.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:52 PM on May 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
Tambor is, by all accounts, a horrible, horrible person. It's a true pity that people also minimize his treatment of Van Barnes and Trace Lysette, probably because they're trans.
posted by lilies.lilies at 8:07 PM on May 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by lilies.lilies at 8:07 PM on May 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
Tambor acknowledges the occasional outburst on previous shows — he references one “blowup” with actress Jessica Walter on Arrested Development for which he later “profusely apologized” (a rep for Walter says, “Jessica does not wish to talk about Jeffrey Tambor”)
I read the entire THR interview, but I don't follow Hollywood very closely, so there may be nuance I'm missing. But assuming there isn't, this made me fucking livid. It was not Walter's choice to talk about this publicly, although even in this thread we are, kind of, acting like it was. She wanted to not comment on whatever vicious and degrading shit he screamed at her in front of all of her coworkers, and instead he drafted her without her knowledge as a fucking character witness. Honestly, it was this particular detail that tipped me, in reading the interview, from "maybe he is just kind of clueless and needed to be told to cut it out" to "he knows exactly what he's doing, he knows that it's wrong, and he doesn't care."
Not only did he treat the women he worked with horribly in two separate workplaces, but he organized a defense he knew would hit ("I'm just so passionate about the work"), and then commented extremely publicly about how he had definitely done this to other women (just to get out ahead of that, just in case, you know), but he apologized, and one of them, in fact, is an older lady who has a new season of the most lucrative role of her career to promote right now (so he's sure that if you ask she will say she's totally cool with him). Which is exactly what she had to do. While he was in the room with her. While she cried.
Honestly, I'm glad I didn't watch the show, because finding out something I loved the way you guys are saying you loved this show included this absolute scrap canoe of a man would gut me.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 8:13 PM on May 23, 2018 [35 favorites]
I read the entire THR interview, but I don't follow Hollywood very closely, so there may be nuance I'm missing. But assuming there isn't, this made me fucking livid. It was not Walter's choice to talk about this publicly, although even in this thread we are, kind of, acting like it was. She wanted to not comment on whatever vicious and degrading shit he screamed at her in front of all of her coworkers, and instead he drafted her without her knowledge as a fucking character witness. Honestly, it was this particular detail that tipped me, in reading the interview, from "maybe he is just kind of clueless and needed to be told to cut it out" to "he knows exactly what he's doing, he knows that it's wrong, and he doesn't care."
Not only did he treat the women he worked with horribly in two separate workplaces, but he organized a defense he knew would hit ("I'm just so passionate about the work"), and then commented extremely publicly about how he had definitely done this to other women (just to get out ahead of that, just in case, you know), but he apologized, and one of them, in fact, is an older lady who has a new season of the most lucrative role of her career to promote right now (so he's sure that if you ask she will say she's totally cool with him). Which is exactly what she had to do. While he was in the room with her. While she cried.
Honestly, I'm glad I didn't watch the show, because finding out something I loved the way you guys are saying you loved this show included this absolute scrap canoe of a man would gut me.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 8:13 PM on May 23, 2018 [35 favorites]
Who could have guessed? Smarmy-asshole comedy is written, produced and acted by smarmy assholes.
I've had it up to here with smarmy asshole comedy of the Seinfeld/Office/AD/Sunny in Philadelphia genre with the cheapjack cinema verité and all the smarmy assholishness that it includes. This won't be popular, but IMO Walter could have — and should have— up and left.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:19 PM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've had it up to here with smarmy asshole comedy of the Seinfeld/Office/AD/Sunny in Philadelphia genre with the cheapjack cinema verité and all the smarmy assholishness that it includes. This won't be popular, but IMO Walter could have — and should have— up and left.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:19 PM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Who could have guessed? Smarmy-asshole comedy is written, produced and acted by smarmy assholes. ...
This won't be popular, but IMO Walter could have — and should have— up and left.
In my opinion Jason Bateman could have -- and should have -- up and left.
In my opinion Will Arnett could have -- and should have -- up and left.
In my opinion Tony Hale could have -- and should have -- up and left.
In my opinion David Cross could have -- and should have -- up and left.
but probably those are also your opinions and you just forgot to say so.
p.s. Jessica Walter's not a "smarmy asshole" for acting in and appreciating a show whose style you don't like.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:32 PM on May 23, 2018 [70 favorites]
This won't be popular, but IMO Walter could have — and should have— up and left.
In my opinion Jason Bateman could have -- and should have -- up and left.
In my opinion Will Arnett could have -- and should have -- up and left.
In my opinion Tony Hale could have -- and should have -- up and left.
In my opinion David Cross could have -- and should have -- up and left.
but probably those are also your opinions and you just forgot to say so.
p.s. Jessica Walter's not a "smarmy asshole" for acting in and appreciating a show whose style you don't like.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:32 PM on May 23, 2018 [70 favorites]
I loved the show, even season 4, and have been anxiously waiting for season 5. I’m really upset reading this interview and not sure if I can watch season 5 anymore.
posted by samthemander at 8:42 PM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by samthemander at 8:42 PM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I never watched this show. Now I never will. Terrible people (except the women in question.)
posted by gen at 8:55 PM on May 23, 2018
posted by gen at 8:55 PM on May 23, 2018
Mod note: jeff-o-matic, this is not a place for a series of high-intensity victim-blaming comments. Please drop it, now.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:30 PM on May 23, 2018 [27 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:30 PM on May 23, 2018 [27 favorites]
My recent rewatch has been giving me a lot to think about with some jokes throughout the show that reaaally look different to me now than they used to as I've gotten better about noticing problematic things, I mentioned this a bit in the FanFare thread for the season 4 remix but it's been on my mind a lot since... I've started to feel like I've always given this show a pass for things that I shouldn't have.Oh man, yeah, some stuff in this show has aged VERY VERY POORLY. For instance, I'd completely forgotten about the "real Asian housewives of orange county" bit from season 4, which is more or less entirely irredeemable, especially given that it was made after the advent of things like color television
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:53 PM on May 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
I had just started watching it for the first time recently. A few episodes in and I was already recognizing about a 100 memes for the first time. So far the "ha ha Tobias might be self-closeted" are the most out-of-date for homophobic to me.
But yeah I enjoyed it well enough, to continue at least. But not now, and it's all personal: I just couldn't handle watching the show anymore. I'm not sure how much it matters or in what way that Netflix knows that now, but it does.
posted by traveler_ at 10:02 PM on May 23, 2018
But yeah I enjoyed it well enough, to continue at least. But not now, and it's all personal: I just couldn't handle watching the show anymore. I'm not sure how much it matters or in what way that Netflix knows that now, but it does.
posted by traveler_ at 10:02 PM on May 23, 2018
What's brutal is the PR campaign for the new season just hit, so Jason Bateman is on Colbert tonight, and THR is pushing a story about him and I just want to bang their heads together over it.
posted by taterpie at 10:21 PM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by taterpie at 10:21 PM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
I hope that each of the male cast members who took part in that group interview will read this MetaFilter thread and say to themselves:
“I’ve made a huge mistake.”
posted by New Frontier at 10:28 PM on May 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
“I’ve made a huge mistake.”
posted by New Frontier at 10:28 PM on May 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
you don't think it was a good show, fine. but taking this seriously means more from people who do, or did, think so, and who also understand that its past high quality doesn't mean anything next to this.
But it's past "high quality" was full of really problematic writing. Racist, sexist, gross stuff. I understand that, at the time, it was "funny", but like with Jerry Seinfeld, Charlie Day, etc etc etc this humor is indicative of the men who make it.
I'm not trying to "do I need a tv?" this, I'm just saying this show is based on problematically awkward jokes, and quelle surprise the men behind it are assholes.
I just feel awful for Jessica Walter.
posted by weed donkey at 10:30 PM on May 23, 2018
But it's past "high quality" was full of really problematic writing. Racist, sexist, gross stuff. I understand that, at the time, it was "funny", but like with Jerry Seinfeld, Charlie Day, etc etc etc this humor is indicative of the men who make it.
I'm not trying to "do I need a tv?" this, I'm just saying this show is based on problematically awkward jokes, and quelle surprise the men behind it are assholes.
I just feel awful for Jessica Walter.
posted by weed donkey at 10:30 PM on May 23, 2018
what a good person alia shawkat seems to be. this is what you do when someone you've known for a long time, who's never done anything bad to you personally on this scale, is accused of having done terrible things.
if this part means what I think it does, and not the opposite: "I hope it’s all handled legally, the way it should be, and taken into consideration.” but I think it does.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:32 PM on May 23, 2018 [17 favorites]
if this part means what I think it does, and not the opposite: "I hope it’s all handled legally, the way it should be, and taken into consideration.” but I think it does.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:32 PM on May 23, 2018 [17 favorites]
This shit infuriates me, and all these guys can fuck straight off. I remember Tambor coming off as a complete fucking asshole -- not necessarily in an abusing/harassing way, just as a giant malicious preening narcissist that makes Donald Trump seem humble -- in talk show interviews back in the 90s, vividly enough that since then, I watch shows despite him rather than because of him since his toxic personality drowns out the character.
So I sort of expect him to be awful, but there is no excuse whatsoever for Bateman, Cross, or Hale. And Will Arnett ain't off the hook, either. He has enough of a conscience or sense of self-preservation not to join in, but zero pushback at even a minimal "Not cool, bro" level.
On the upside, the next time somebody asks what "mansplaining" is, just link to the Here's How Show Business Works, Jessica Walter bit.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:36 PM on May 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
So I sort of expect him to be awful, but there is no excuse whatsoever for Bateman, Cross, or Hale. And Will Arnett ain't off the hook, either. He has enough of a conscience or sense of self-preservation not to join in, but zero pushback at even a minimal "Not cool, bro" level.
On the upside, the next time somebody asks what "mansplaining" is, just link to the Here's How Show Business Works, Jessica Walter bit.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:36 PM on May 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
I'm sure this isn't close to an original observation at this point but Bateman really comes off as the sort of character who would be played by... Jason Bateman. Like he would think Michael is the good guy in Arrested Development.
posted by atoxyl at 12:07 AM on May 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 12:07 AM on May 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
This is not directly related but the comment about the toxic writers room makes me think about a writing podcast I listen to occasionally. On one episode an apparently well-known writer was talking about how he got his start as a college intern. He had a one day overlap with the previous intern, a woman, who explained that his job was basically to sit in the corner, never say anything, and get stuff if anybody asked him to. Naturally, there were no other women in the room. A few days later, one of the guys at the table looked at the intern and said, Why aren’t you sitting with us? A bit later the writers started asking the intern his opinion about bits and then letting him do some writing. And as I listened, I got more and more enraged. Nobody on the podcast acknowledged the obvious fact that this guy had become a successful writer in large part because he was male and the men in the writers room welcomed him into their circle while ignoring the young woman who had had exactly the same job.
A lifetime ago a college friend got an internship at Saturday Night Live. She was treated badly the entire time. One of her best friends, a guy, also got an internship there at the same time. It was before Bill Murray was famous and the guy intern ended up living with Murray during his internship and having a swell time. I get that white women problems are not the problems that women of color and transwomen face. They are infuriating nonetheless.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:18 AM on May 24, 2018 [49 favorites]
A lifetime ago a college friend got an internship at Saturday Night Live. She was treated badly the entire time. One of her best friends, a guy, also got an internship there at the same time. It was before Bill Murray was famous and the guy intern ended up living with Murray during his internship and having a swell time. I get that white women problems are not the problems that women of color and transwomen face. They are infuriating nonetheless.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:18 AM on May 24, 2018 [49 favorites]
I 100% buy that Fox cancelled Arrested Development the first time because the showrunner was a piece of shit but you can't cancel a show because the showrunner's a piece of shit, but you can cancel it because the showrunner's a piece of shit and it's not rating well.
Same thing with Firefly, except there the series was also dependent on people watching the pilot, which was bad.
You know it's true.
one of the actors on Firefly was the guy who coined #gamergate
posted by Merus at 1:34 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Same thing with Firefly, except there the series was also dependent on people watching the pilot, which was bad.
You know it's true.
one of the actors on Firefly was the guy who coined #gamergate
posted by Merus at 1:34 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Actor Thomas Sadoski, another of Jessica Walter's coworkers, made a few remarks on Instagram:
This is Jessica Walter. She is a national goddamned treasure. It was an honor and a privilege to work with her. I don’t give a fuck who you think you are or how good you think you are or how awesome you think your buddy/daddy is: screaming at someone isn’t “part of the business”. It’s bullshit. It’s unhinged bullshit behavior and it has NEVER been acceptable. It wasn’t cool in the 70’s or 80’s or whenthefuckever you “came up”. It was bullshit then, it is bullshit now. And excusing that kind of behavior is pathetic. Just pathetic. I worked in shitty greasy-spoon kitchens growing up: it wasn’t acceptable behavior THERE and most of us were on HEAVY DRUGS. It certainly isn’t acceptable for some man-baby millionaire to do on a cozy ass tv show set. And it is even less acceptable for his male cast-mates to excuse it away IN FRONT OF THE PERSON THAT IT HAPPENED TO....(wait for it)....WHILE SHE IS TRYING TO EXPLAIN HOW TRAUMATIZING THE EXPERIENCE WAS. What in the halfpenny fuck is happening?!posted by FelliniBlank at 3:45 AM on May 24, 2018 [94 favorites]
I am amazed at the strength of Jessica Walter and Alia Shawkat, and I wonder what sorts of things they'd be doing and creating if they didn't have to expend that strength on coping with misogynistic, hateful behavior and a system -- a society -- that not only excuses but coddles its perpetrators.
Things like this always force me to confront how selfish I am about things I enjoy, and interrogate why I enjoy them and why I give them a pass. I won't be giving AD a pass....or any future views. And I'll be asking myself tougher questions about other things I enjoy going forward.
posted by kewb at 3:48 AM on May 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
Things like this always force me to confront how selfish I am about things I enjoy, and interrogate why I enjoy them and why I give them a pass. I won't be giving AD a pass....or any future views. And I'll be asking myself tougher questions about other things I enjoy going forward.
posted by kewb at 3:48 AM on May 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
Noteworthy is that Portia de la Rossi, along with Cera, didn't show up. I wonder how much of that was distaste for the assholes they're paid to work with.
posted by mikelieman at 3:57 AM on May 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 3:57 AM on May 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
In the interview:
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 4:14 AM on May 24, 2018 [28 favorites]
CROSS: You know, one thing that Jeffrey has said a number of times that I think is important, that you don’t often hear from somebody in his position, is that he learned from the experience and he’s listening and learning and growing. That’s important to remember.Bateman's tweet today:
I’m incredibly embarrassed and deeply sorry to have done that to Jessica. This is a big learning moment for me. I shouldn’t have tried so hard to mansplain, or fix a fight, or make everything okay.Learning moments are PR bullshit.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 4:14 AM on May 24, 2018 [28 favorites]
It’s so much more effective to vote with our eyeballs in the modern era, since we’re actually being tracked by Netflix’s analytics. We can skip the part where we wonder if anyone’s tallying our vote, and go straight to wrestling with our belief that one single vote matters.
posted by thejoshu at 4:18 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by thejoshu at 4:18 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Absolutely infuriating.
Bateman has apparently posted a twitter thread apologizing. While my blood is still boiling I'm heartened that enough people must have really let him have it for him to (hopefully) engage in some self-examination and see how wrong he was.
posted by sprezzy at 4:19 AM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Bateman has apparently posted a twitter thread apologizing. While my blood is still boiling I'm heartened that enough people must have really let him have it for him to (hopefully) engage in some self-examination and see how wrong he was.
posted by sprezzy at 4:19 AM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Still not loving the additional praise/support for Tambor in trying to defend his actions, though. UGH.
posted by sprezzy at 4:20 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by sprezzy at 4:20 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Still not loving the "here's everything I should have said instead of what I did say when I talked over my coworker" vibe. Maybe try, you know, shutting the fuck up.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:32 AM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:32 AM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm sure this isn't close to an original observation at this point but Bateman really comes off as the sort of character who would be played by... Jason Bateman. Like he would think Michael is the good guy in Arrested Development.
I’ve always been a bit sus of Bateman without really knowing why. But I think this might be it. His best roles have been playing guys who initially seem nice but are actually just smarmy arseholes. Now I’m wondering if it’s actually acting or just showing up and being himself.
posted by harriet vane at 4:45 AM on May 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
I’ve always been a bit sus of Bateman without really knowing why. But I think this might be it. His best roles have been playing guys who initially seem nice but are actually just smarmy arseholes. Now I’m wondering if it’s actually acting or just showing up and being himself.
posted by harriet vane at 4:45 AM on May 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
There are other, better shows to watch, and books to read, and things to do, than continue to line the pockets of these delusional dudes.
Walter's refusal to be made invisible here is a great power of example to us older women. I hope she can "retire" a/k/a find something better to do with her time, and that said (successful) search is a public one.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 4:47 AM on May 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
Walter's refusal to be made invisible here is a great power of example to us older women. I hope she can "retire" a/k/a find something better to do with her time, and that said (successful) search is a public one.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 4:47 AM on May 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
If you're looking for something else to put in your eyeballs, may I recommend One Day at a Time on Netflix? It's a very gentle and earnest comedy with great female leads that deals thoughtfully with gender, sexuality, culture, racism, and family, and has a strong central role for the amazing (86 year old) Rita Moreno.
posted by ITheCosmos at 5:17 AM on May 24, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by ITheCosmos at 5:17 AM on May 24, 2018 [22 favorites]
Also co-starring metafilter's own Schneider!
posted by octobersurprise at 5:30 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 5:30 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
BATEMAN: Everything will be better on set and this will all be a distant memory when we shoot Season 6.
NARRATOR: There will never be a Season 6.
posted by New Frontier at 6:11 AM on May 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
NARRATOR: There will never be a Season 6.
posted by New Frontier at 6:11 AM on May 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
You don’t get a cookie for saying you fucked up.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:48 AM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:48 AM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I’ve always been a bit sus of Bateman without really knowing why.
This really came to a fine point for me when he starred in that "comedy" movie where he fraudulently impregnated Jennifer Aniston with his sperm. "You know, like rape, but hilarious" was one of his biggest movies after rising to the top. That...sent a message.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:04 AM on May 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
This really came to a fine point for me when he starred in that "comedy" movie where he fraudulently impregnated Jennifer Aniston with his sperm. "You know, like rape, but hilarious" was one of his biggest movies after rising to the top. That...sent a message.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:04 AM on May 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
Lainey of Lainey Gossip talks about Bateman's apology and how this whole situation is emblematic of how women are silenced and marginalized, even by the "good" guys.
(btw if you're not reading Lainey Gossip, fix your life. This kind of thoughtful, insightful posting is pretty commonplace over there and will reshape the way you think of celeb gossip.)
posted by palomar at 7:14 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
(btw if you're not reading Lainey Gossip, fix your life. This kind of thoughtful, insightful posting is pretty commonplace over there and will reshape the way you think of celeb gossip.)
posted by palomar at 7:14 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
I no longer believe PR apologies. If it's not backed up with actual actions, it's just words you hired a media firm to write.
posted by jeather at 7:15 AM on May 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by jeather at 7:15 AM on May 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm currently making my way through Lady Dynamite (also produced by Mitch Hurwitz) on Netflix, and feeling torn between supporting Maria Bamford, who basically walks on water as far as I'm concerned, and giving Netflix the signal that I'm interested in more Hurwitz-produced content even though everything about this whole situation grosses me out.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:17 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:17 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Lady Dynamite's been cancelled, so over here we're hoping Maria Bamford gets something even better to do. Maybe with Jessica Walter. Heh.
posted by allthinky at 7:24 AM on May 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by allthinky at 7:24 AM on May 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
I suppose you could watch all of Lady Dynamite and then give it a thumbs down. But then the algorithm will think that you don't like Maria Bamford, probably. I suppose you combat that by finding other Maria Bamford material on Netflix and upvoting it, while also downvoting any Mitch Hurwitz property? Would that work? Or is it better to just watch the show, don't vote, and don't worry about what an algorithm things?
posted by palomar at 7:26 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by palomar at 7:26 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
I suppose it says something about how low my expectations are concerning public apologies that I was pleased Bateman's at least seemed to acknowledge the nature of his offense and take ownership of it.
When it comes to these kinds of high-profile public apologies, I usually expect denial (Weinstein), obfuscation (Spacey, CK), or "I'm sorry you're offended I did nothing wrong go fornicate yourself" (Limbaugh).
posted by Ndwright at 7:31 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
When it comes to these kinds of high-profile public apologies, I usually expect denial (Weinstein), obfuscation (Spacey, CK), or "I'm sorry you're offended I did nothing wrong go fornicate yourself" (Limbaugh).
posted by Ndwright at 7:31 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Todd VanDerWerff and Alissa Wilkinson at Vox, "Arrested Development’s Jessica Walter talks Jeffrey Tambor’s harassment — with Tambor there"
posted by Going To Maine at 7:44 AM on May 24, 2018
posted by Going To Maine at 7:44 AM on May 24, 2018
With the exception of two mentions of Jessica by name (one time saying that he wasn't insenstive to her - what?, one simple apology), and many that referred to her (grossly, imo) as "the victim", all of his tweets were about poor Jason Bateman himself.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 7:46 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 7:46 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Jason Bateman is on Colbert tonight
This interview was him calling Will Arnett a girl over and over because of the way Will reacted to a car accident. It was the laziest joke ever.
posted by soelo at 7:47 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
This interview was him calling Will Arnett a girl over and over because of the way Will reacted to a car accident. It was the laziest joke ever.
posted by soelo at 7:47 AM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Or is it better to just watch the show, don't vote, and don't worry about what an algorithm things?
To be clear, I'm less concerned about Netflix's algorithm (which has never quite known what to do with me in over 8 years of streaming) and more concerned about Netflix continuing to give Hurwitz a producer shingle for other original programs in the future.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:50 AM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
To be clear, I'm less concerned about Netflix's algorithm (which has never quite known what to do with me in over 8 years of streaming) and more concerned about Netflix continuing to give Hurwitz a producer shingle for other original programs in the future.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:50 AM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
(btw if you're not reading Lainey Gossip, fix your life. This kind of thoughtful, insightful posting is pretty commonplace over there and will reshape the way you think of celeb gossip.)
Seconding this. Her analysis of how Jennifer Garner handled her publicity and rebranding during her break up with Ben Affleck is like a mini-seminar in how some women successfully navigate misogyny, but also reveals what a thin fucking needle that is to thread. It also makes you fear and respect Jennifer Garner. You know how they say the truly skilled assassin makes you wonder if they were ever there, or whatever? She fucked him up, and she did it with a sweet smile on her face so that you’d hardly know.
Unless you were reading Lainey, anyway.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:52 AM on May 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
Seconding this. Her analysis of how Jennifer Garner handled her publicity and rebranding during her break up with Ben Affleck is like a mini-seminar in how some women successfully navigate misogyny, but also reveals what a thin fucking needle that is to thread. It also makes you fear and respect Jennifer Garner. You know how they say the truly skilled assassin makes you wonder if they were ever there, or whatever? She fucked him up, and she did it with a sweet smile on her face so that you’d hardly know.
Unless you were reading Lainey, anyway.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:52 AM on May 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
Jason Bateman is on Colbert tonight
This interview was him calling Will Arnett a girl over and over because of the way Will reacted to a car accident.
Can “Bateman” enter the lexicon as a noun for “that guy who thinks he’s enlightened and so reasonable and is actually the most exhausting kind of sexist to fight”
Or something similar, I’m open to definitions
But man he is a TYPE
posted by schadenfrau at 7:55 AM on May 24, 2018 [26 favorites]
This interview was him calling Will Arnett a girl over and over because of the way Will reacted to a car accident.
Can “Bateman” enter the lexicon as a noun for “that guy who thinks he’s enlightened and so reasonable and is actually the most exhausting kind of sexist to fight”
Or something similar, I’m open to definitions
But man he is a TYPE
posted by schadenfrau at 7:55 AM on May 24, 2018 [26 favorites]
I'm having a hard time with those that say they won't watch and actively want to have the show cancelled as a show of support for Walter. She says, "I’ll play this until I die, with my wheelchair and my cane, if they ask me." She very clearly states she wants this role now and to continue in the future, and a lot of people on here are trying to take that away by killing the show instead of finding another way to support her and deal with this issue.
It just feels like another group of people THAT ARE NOT LISTENING TO HER.
posted by Muddler at 8:16 AM on May 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
It just feels like another group of people THAT ARE NOT LISTENING TO HER.
posted by Muddler at 8:16 AM on May 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
David Cross was the one who infuriated me most, even more than Bateman. That whole "Well, gosh, it's not like he just went from zero to 60, it's a cumulative thing"? What the FUCK? A reasonable reading of that is, "Well, you know, she did kind of ask for it." Bateman even follows up Cross's comment by saying, "Not to say you had it coming, Jessica," (in other words, "You really had it coming, Jessica.") What a miserable prick. I always suspected he was one, and boy is this ever proof positive. And how surprising, I don't see any apology from him on Twitter.
posted by holborne at 8:18 AM on May 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by holborne at 8:18 AM on May 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
You would think that by now publicists and PR people would know how to write a proper apology. But people still put out these badly written things that just prove all over again that this person just *does not get it at all.*
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 8:18 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 8:18 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Muddler, I think it goes without saying in this day and age that if a few MeFites decide to stay away from future Arrested Development episodes because of the known abuse on-set, it isn't exactly going to torpedo the show. Surely there has to be a better way to support Walters than watching a show that also stars known abuser Tambor as well as host of other gross guys?
Although I see where you're coming from -- you don't stop showing up at your friend's dinner parties just because her husband is rude to her in front of guests. If anything, you show up harder and more mindfully in order to be a supportive voice. I'm simply not sure if that makes sense in this context though, where views are votes. It's not like Arrested Development is Walters' only role.
holborne, I read what Cross was saying as a kind of coded, "this set is ALL KINDS of fucked up and Tambor's actions didn't happen in a vacuum -- there is more stuff just like this that has been going on."
Unfortunately, your take makes a lot more sense to me.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:29 AM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Although I see where you're coming from -- you don't stop showing up at your friend's dinner parties just because her husband is rude to her in front of guests. If anything, you show up harder and more mindfully in order to be a supportive voice. I'm simply not sure if that makes sense in this context though, where views are votes. It's not like Arrested Development is Walters' only role.
holborne, I read what Cross was saying as a kind of coded, "this set is ALL KINDS of fucked up and Tambor's actions didn't happen in a vacuum -- there is more stuff just like this that has been going on."
Unfortunately, your take makes a lot more sense to me.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:29 AM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
holborne, I read what Cross was saying as a kind of coded, "this set is ALL KINDS of fucked up and Tambor's actions didn't happen in a vacuum -- there is more stuff just like this that has been going on."
And his past behaviour is no doubt a part of that.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 8:39 AM on May 24, 2018
And his past behaviour is no doubt a part of that.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 8:39 AM on May 24, 2018
I'm having a hard time with those that say they won't watch and actively want to have the show cancelled as a show of support for Walter.
Jessica Walter can have my support, my respect, my sympathy, my outrage, and my admiration, if she wants it. She can't transfer it to Hurwitz and Bateman and the rest of them. and to be fair to her rather than use her as a shield, I don't believe she's asked me to. nor has she asked to be used as their shield, something I personally have my own hard time with.
it belittles Walter's entirely real right to respect and professional treatment to put it on the same level as an imaginary right to have people watch her show. Everyone has an obligation to give her the former; nobody has an obligation to give her the latter. that is not a serious way to remedy harassment or to show you're "LISTENING TO HER."
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:40 AM on May 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
Jessica Walter can have my support, my respect, my sympathy, my outrage, and my admiration, if she wants it. She can't transfer it to Hurwitz and Bateman and the rest of them. and to be fair to her rather than use her as a shield, I don't believe she's asked me to. nor has she asked to be used as their shield, something I personally have my own hard time with.
it belittles Walter's entirely real right to respect and professional treatment to put it on the same level as an imaginary right to have people watch her show. Everyone has an obligation to give her the former; nobody has an obligation to give her the latter. that is not a serious way to remedy harassment or to show you're "LISTENING TO HER."
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:40 AM on May 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
That was a pretty mortifying display on the part of Bateman et al.
It's good that Bateman has 'written' an apology (I hope he backs it up on Colbert) - but the real proof is in the pudding, that is to say, we'll see if he backs it up with actions.
It sucks to have to work with a shit-head and I wouldn't wish it on... well, I would wish it on some other shit-heads I've met over the years but in general people should get it that one of the things in life is that 'You should try to not be a shit-head and you leave your personal baggage at home.' (And that yelling and shouting at people you work with is never alright and should never be excused.) But because there are some shit-heads on a show is not going to stop me from watching it - on the other hand I stopped watching anything Spacey was in a bunch of years ago because of a story an acquaintance told me. And that sitcom with the 'Nerds' that is really a sexist cesspool of misery isn't on my list anymore and, as it comes up, other things as well. I guess predators is my line - I'll watch the work of a jerk, but not a predator. Because the latter are due expulsion from the village as they are dangerous. Jerks are just jerks.
posted by From Bklyn at 8:42 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's good that Bateman has 'written' an apology (I hope he backs it up on Colbert) - but the real proof is in the pudding, that is to say, we'll see if he backs it up with actions.
It sucks to have to work with a shit-head and I wouldn't wish it on... well, I would wish it on some other shit-heads I've met over the years but in general people should get it that one of the things in life is that 'You should try to not be a shit-head and you leave your personal baggage at home.' (And that yelling and shouting at people you work with is never alright and should never be excused.) But because there are some shit-heads on a show is not going to stop me from watching it - on the other hand I stopped watching anything Spacey was in a bunch of years ago because of a story an acquaintance told me. And that sitcom with the 'Nerds' that is really a sexist cesspool of misery isn't on my list anymore and, as it comes up, other things as well. I guess predators is my line - I'll watch the work of a jerk, but not a predator. Because the latter are due expulsion from the village as they are dangerous. Jerks are just jerks.
posted by From Bklyn at 8:42 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
I've started to feel like I've always given this show a pass for things that I shouldn't have. Like the depiction of LGBTQ people as only and always a joke
It's funny, when the season 4 remix was released, I decided to put on the pilot, and it was quite a shock to realize that I had completely forgotten that the series starts out with a couple of gay jokes that are so lazy and dumb that I can't even really find them offensive, just disappointing, and that AD is best left to the Bush Jr. era.
posted by Automocar at 8:42 AM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's funny, when the season 4 remix was released, I decided to put on the pilot, and it was quite a shock to realize that I had completely forgotten that the series starts out with a couple of gay jokes that are so lazy and dumb that I can't even really find them offensive, just disappointing, and that AD is best left to the Bush Jr. era.
posted by Automocar at 8:42 AM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have certainly enjoyed Bateman from time to time but yup, always felt something off. When you consider that by far far far far far the best acting he ever did was in Juno and then your realize how his character from Juno's staggering creepiness was missed by at least half the audience.... not sure how much acting was being done there.
posted by Twinge at 8:48 AM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Twinge at 8:48 AM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
i do rather like how many times throughout this thread i read the name "bateman" and my mind was like "ah yes, american psycho" though
posted by poffin boffin at 9:03 AM on May 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 9:03 AM on May 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
And his past behaviour is no doubt a part of that.
Holy shit. I had never heard about that before and I literally gasped when I read the story linked there. What a vile human being Cross is.
posted by holborne at 9:10 AM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Holy shit. I had never heard about that before and I literally gasped when I read the story linked there. What a vile human being Cross is.
posted by holborne at 9:10 AM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Reading about Morgan Freeman stuff this morning (fun stuff!) and came across this article from 2016 which seems along the same lines as the themes raised in the AD interview. From the Hollywood Reporter:
posted by amanda at 9:25 AM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Morgan Freeman Respects His Producing Partner — And Likes Her in a Short DressWith friends like these....
Sexual politics made a surprising appearance Saturday during a Produced By Conference panel discussion before an audience of 400 people between Morgan Freeman and his producing partner Lori McCreary, a former tech entrepreneur who is CEO and co-founder with Freeman of Revelations Entertainment.
Recalling their first meeting, Freeman said, “She had on a dress cut to here.”
“He’s not a pig, I promise,” interjected moderator and producer Mark Gordon at the session, before adding, “Maybe he is.”
posted by amanda at 9:25 AM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
amanda - you were saying...
Women accuse Morgan Freeman of inappropriate behavior, harassment
I'm just clinging to Mr. Rogers at this point. Please, please, please let there not be dirt on Mr. Rogers.
posted by Muddler at 9:34 AM on May 24, 2018 [14 favorites]
Women accuse Morgan Freeman of inappropriate behavior, harassment
I'm just clinging to Mr. Rogers at this point. Please, please, please let there not be dirt on Mr. Rogers.
posted by Muddler at 9:34 AM on May 24, 2018 [14 favorites]
Under The Skin: Why That 'Arrested Development' Interview Is So Bad [Linda Holmes, NPR]
When Deb asked specifically about the Walter story and she tried to talk about it, Bateman, Cross, Hale and Arnett, between the four of them (though Arnett did the least and Bateman did the most by far), eventually intervened in all of the following ways: (1) said (jokingly?) that they've all done the same to her; (2) said all "families" have arguments; (3) joked about all the other terrible things they've done to each other; (4) pointed out that Tambor has already said he's working on it; (5) said "difficult" people are part of the business; (6) said "atypical behavior" is part of people's "process"; (7) said they've all lost their temper sometimes; (8) said expecting "normal" behavior means "not understand[ing] what happens on set"; (9) claimed to have "zero complaints" about working together; (10) called yelling at people "a wobbly route to [a] goal"; and (11) repeatedly emphasized context and everyone playing their role in conflict [...]posted by Atom Eyes at 10:10 AM on May 24, 2018 [32 favorites]
But ... why this story?
The last year or so has been an XXL garbage fire of miserable tales of workplace abuse and other horribles, in the entertainment industry and elsewhere. But this story got under my skin. Several other women told me the same thing on Wednesday night. For me, I could only come up with this explanation: It's not the worst story, but it's such a complete story.
MotherFUCKERS.
posted by corvikate at 10:28 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by corvikate at 10:28 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Morgan Freeman openly dated his step-granddaughter like five years ago, and people just handwaved it at the time. I've been waiting for the stories about him to come out ever since #metoo started.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:03 AM on May 24, 2018 [21 favorites]
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:03 AM on May 24, 2018 [21 favorites]
Recalling their first meeting, Freeman said, “She had on a dress cut to here.”
I'll take Things Respectful People Keep to Themselves for 500...
posted by pianoblack at 11:25 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'll take Things Respectful People Keep to Themselves for 500...
posted by pianoblack at 11:25 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Muddler: Please, please, please let there not be dirt on Mr. Rogers.
Narrator (spoken with confidence): There is no dirt on Mr. Rogers. He is a good man.
posted by New Frontier at 12:38 PM on May 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
Narrator (spoken with confidence): There is no dirt on Mr. Rogers. He is a good man.
posted by New Frontier at 12:38 PM on May 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
Can I ask for some reassurance about the people, and by "people" let's be frank I mean the men, involved in The Expanse and Stranger Things not being jackasses? Or even is that too much to ask?
posted by seyirci at 12:45 PM on May 24, 2018
posted by seyirci at 12:45 PM on May 24, 2018
Morgan Freeman openly dated his step-granddaughter like five years ago, and people just handwaved it at the time.
Wait, what? Jesus Christ
posted by Automocar at 12:48 PM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Wait, what? Jesus Christ
posted by Automocar at 12:48 PM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Duffer Brothers Accused of ‘Verbally Abusing Multiple Women’ on ‘Stranger Things’ Set
And "James S.A. Corey," the joint persona for the two authors behind The Expanse, responds:
And "James S.A. Corey," the joint persona for the two authors behind The Expanse, responds:
My general rule of, "everyone is working just as hard as you are and on just as little sleep so don't be a dick on set," would have covered this.posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:50 PM on May 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
At least one of the Stranger Things creators (Ross Duffer) is a jackass.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:51 PM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:51 PM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
No, both. Thanks, Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:53 PM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:53 PM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I read what Cross was saying as a kind of coded, "this set is ALL KINDS of fucked up and Tambor's actions didn't happen in a vacuum -- there is more stuff just like this that has been going on."
While I obviously won't even attempt to speak to everything he does, I know Dave who is most decidedly not a shitty person in real life. Knowing how he is, I would definitely assume your interpretation here is accurate. I think he is very much trying to slam the set.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 1:00 PM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
While I obviously won't even attempt to speak to everything he does, I know Dave who is most decidedly not a shitty person in real life. Knowing how he is, I would definitely assume your interpretation here is accurate. I think he is very much trying to slam the set.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 1:00 PM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Burn it down. Burn it all down.
I listened to a clip of the audio from the AD interview, the bit where Jessica Walters says she was never yelled at on set by anyone like Jeffrey Tambor yelled at her, but she had to let it go, and Jason Bateman said his stupid piece. It was horrible to listen to. That poor woman. All those fucking men supporting and making excuses for Jeffrey Tambor, telling Jessica Walters she needed to just let it go. Ugh.
Good for Alia Shawkat for speaking out against them.
One of the very high up dudes where I work has been on leave for the last six months. Two women have told me they filed verbal harassment complaints against him. I think the main reason they have a chance of getting him turfed is that he was abusive to both women and men, and no one likes him. Otherwise, if he'd only been awful to women, I imagine we would see something like the situation in this interview, where the men were all like, "Oh well he was never problematic TO ME even though I saw him be verbally abusive to women but who cares they are causing a stir and it's uncomfortable and I don't like that."
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:03 PM on May 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
I listened to a clip of the audio from the AD interview, the bit where Jessica Walters says she was never yelled at on set by anyone like Jeffrey Tambor yelled at her, but she had to let it go, and Jason Bateman said his stupid piece. It was horrible to listen to. That poor woman. All those fucking men supporting and making excuses for Jeffrey Tambor, telling Jessica Walters she needed to just let it go. Ugh.
Good for Alia Shawkat for speaking out against them.
One of the very high up dudes where I work has been on leave for the last six months. Two women have told me they filed verbal harassment complaints against him. I think the main reason they have a chance of getting him turfed is that he was abusive to both women and men, and no one likes him. Otherwise, if he'd only been awful to women, I imagine we would see something like the situation in this interview, where the men were all like, "Oh well he was never problematic TO ME even though I saw him be verbally abusive to women but who cares they are causing a stir and it's uncomfortable and I don't like that."
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:03 PM on May 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
Every time we have one of these threads, some people act as if the fact that they never liked the show in question makes them virtuous somehow. Not only is that extremely insulting to people who liked the show and are upset by the news, it also implies that the quality of a show and the likelihood of shitty behavior by the creators are somehow linked. They aren't.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:04 PM on May 24, 2018 [82 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:04 PM on May 24, 2018 [82 favorites]
I read what Cross was saying as a kind of coded, "this set is ALL KINDS of fucked up and Tambor's actions didn't happen in a vacuum -- there is more stuff just like this that has been going on."
While I obviously won't even attempt to speak to everything he does, I know Dave who is most decidedly not a shitty person in real life. Knowing how he is, I would definitely assume your interpretation here is accurate. I think he is very much trying to slam the set.
I'm not sure we should give Cross that much credit. By saying that the set was an unusually chaotic place, he is using it as a means to excuse bad behavior - how is that not regressive? I mean, I like Cross and all, but a lot of smart and good and right and angry progressive men have really big blindspots when it comes to women.
posted by Think_Long at 1:24 PM on May 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
While I obviously won't even attempt to speak to everything he does, I know Dave who is most decidedly not a shitty person in real life. Knowing how he is, I would definitely assume your interpretation here is accurate. I think he is very much trying to slam the set.
I'm not sure we should give Cross that much credit. By saying that the set was an unusually chaotic place, he is using it as a means to excuse bad behavior - how is that not regressive? I mean, I like Cross and all, but a lot of smart and good and right and angry progressive men have really big blindspots when it comes to women.
posted by Think_Long at 1:24 PM on May 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure we should give Cross that much credit.
this piece linked above doesn't exactly paint a picture of an essentially good person.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:26 PM on May 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
this piece linked above doesn't exactly paint a picture of an essentially good person.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:26 PM on May 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
All those fucking men supporting and making excuses for Jeffrey Tambor
Yes, exactly. I am reminded of this part of a (recentish) Rebecca Solnit piece:
The assumption is that the story is about him; he’s the protagonist, the person who matters, and when you, say, read Stephens defending Woody Allen and attacking Dylan Farrow for saying Allen molested her, you see how much work he’s done imagining being Woody Allen, how little being Dylan Farrow or anyone like her.
So many men have never considered what it's like to be not a man.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 2:21 PM on May 24, 2018 [31 favorites]
Yes, exactly. I am reminded of this part of a (recentish) Rebecca Solnit piece:
The assumption is that the story is about him; he’s the protagonist, the person who matters, and when you, say, read Stephens defending Woody Allen and attacking Dylan Farrow for saying Allen molested her, you see how much work he’s done imagining being Woody Allen, how little being Dylan Farrow or anyone like her.
So many men have never considered what it's like to be not a man.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 2:21 PM on May 24, 2018 [31 favorites]
this piece linked above doesn't exactly paint a picture of an essentially good person.
Agree--it doesn't. It paints a picture of someone who lives a public life who eleven years ago apparently said something offensive; something for which he has repeatedly apologized. I stand by my 30+ years of knowing him as a kind human being--an essentially good person--who fucked up.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:26 PM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Agree--it doesn't. It paints a picture of someone who lives a public life who eleven years ago apparently said something offensive; something for which he has repeatedly apologized. I stand by my 30+ years of knowing him as a kind human being--an essentially good person--who fucked up.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:26 PM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
While I obviously won't even attempt to speak to everything he does, I know Dave who is most decidedly not a shitty person in real life. Knowing how he is, I would definitely assume your interpretation here is accurate. I think he is very much trying to slam the set.
I mean, why does that make it better? He doesn't have the balls to just come out and say explicitly what Alia Shawkat did -- "This is fucked up and there's no excuse for it"? Under your interpretation, rather than actually putting his neck out and taking a stand, he tries to remain everyone's friend but gives himself cover by making coded statements so he can still consider himself a good guy. Sorry, that's horseshit. He can't have it both ways.
posted by holborne at 2:34 PM on May 24, 2018 [17 favorites]
I mean, why does that make it better? He doesn't have the balls to just come out and say explicitly what Alia Shawkat did -- "This is fucked up and there's no excuse for it"? Under your interpretation, rather than actually putting his neck out and taking a stand, he tries to remain everyone's friend but gives himself cover by making coded statements so he can still consider himself a good guy. Sorry, that's horseshit. He can't have it both ways.
posted by holborne at 2:34 PM on May 24, 2018 [17 favorites]
From that David Cross interview:
"I agreed with Alia that there was no excuse. There's never an excuse ever for yelling at somebody and humiliating them in front of other people. And there was no excuse when Jessica did it. To Jessica's credit, she eventually apologized to the actress, and felt bad about it. Jeffrey did as well, but it was a bigger deal, there were more people in the room and it was an extremely uncomfortable moment."
He seems to be conflating different incidents and implying Walter was also somehow abusive to people on set? It's very confusing.
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:46 PM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
"I agreed with Alia that there was no excuse. There's never an excuse ever for yelling at somebody and humiliating them in front of other people. And there was no excuse when Jessica did it. To Jessica's credit, she eventually apologized to the actress, and felt bad about it. Jeffrey did as well, but it was a bigger deal, there were more people in the room and it was an extremely uncomfortable moment."
He seems to be conflating different incidents and implying Walter was also somehow abusive to people on set? It's very confusing.
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:46 PM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, David Cross bringing up some kind of separate/different Jessica Walter set thing was some bullshit.
I'm also tired of the whole, "I will talk to some people" thing. Motherfuckers, you should recognize shitty behavior at age 5...you shouldn't have to consult some people.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 2:54 PM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm also tired of the whole, "I will talk to some people" thing. Motherfuckers, you should recognize shitty behavior at age 5...you shouldn't have to consult some people.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 2:54 PM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Ah, the ol' standby, "she's no angel" defense.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:55 PM on May 24, 2018 [23 favorites]
posted by melissasaurus at 2:55 PM on May 24, 2018 [23 favorites]
"Whatever the criticisms are, I will own up. I don't even know what they are,"
he doesn't even know what it is that they did wrong, just that women are angry and he's in trouble. the last line "can't wait to see how my career is destroyed" is so ugly and dismissive.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:57 PM on May 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
he doesn't even know what it is that they did wrong, just that women are angry and he's in trouble. the last line "can't wait to see how my career is destroyed" is so ugly and dismissive.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:57 PM on May 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
That Gothamist interview with Cross -- about whom I had exactly zero opinion of (I hadn't heard about the Yi thing before) -- is a lot of hot bullshit.
posted by jeather at 2:58 PM on May 24, 2018 [29 favorites]
So I will unequivocally apologize to Jessica. I'm sorry that we behaved the way we behaved. Whatever the criticisms are, I will own up. I don't even know what they are, as I said, I saw the initial thing but I jumped off at the behest of various people. And also I had to put my daughter to bed, so it was time to, you know, focus on what's really important in the moment.I'm sorry for whatever it is we did, I'm not really sure and couldn't be bothered to think it through. I'm a dad. I have a daughter, so how could I really be sexist?
posted by jeather at 2:58 PM on May 24, 2018 [29 favorites]
Yeah okay, he's acting like an asshole. Let me say that he used to be a nice guy to me and leave it at that.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:22 PM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:22 PM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh my god.
And I don't know whether or not—this is purely speculative—I don't know whether or not Jeffrey would have done that to the male members of the cast. He didn't have that relationship that he has with Jessica that he has with the male members of the cast, so that's perhaps part of the difference.
Narrator: He would not have done that to the male members of the cast.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:29 PM on May 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
And I don't know whether or not—this is purely speculative—I don't know whether or not Jeffrey would have done that to the male members of the cast. He didn't have that relationship that he has with Jessica that he has with the male members of the cast, so that's perhaps part of the difference.
Narrator: He would not have done that to the male members of the cast.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:29 PM on May 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
More from the Gothamist interview, my emphasis below:
Q. Was there a briefing amongst you about what happened, since it was pretty heavy emotionally? It was. Whenever there's an occasion that somebody cries, it doesn't matter how many times they've cried before, that's a bad thing. That is never good. And again, I was there and it was not cool. It was a tough thing to be a part of, a tough thing to have untold. And it didn't last for 30 seconds, it was a couple minutes.
So apparently Jessica is a crybaby, too. FFS.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:30 PM on May 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
Q. Was there a briefing amongst you about what happened, since it was pretty heavy emotionally? It was. Whenever there's an occasion that somebody cries, it doesn't matter how many times they've cried before, that's a bad thing. That is never good. And again, I was there and it was not cool. It was a tough thing to be a part of, a tough thing to have untold. And it didn't last for 30 seconds, it was a couple minutes.
So apparently Jessica is a crybaby, too. FFS.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:30 PM on May 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
I am super curious how Cross has apparently learned so little about TimesUp given how important his wife is in it. Does it not come up in conversation?
His tweet is also bullshit:
I have been off Twitter at the behest of my wife. I have apologized to Jessica in private (the way I prefer to conduct apologies to people). I do not have a PR firm repping me. I hope this interview [Gothamist one] I did earlier is edifying on at least a tiny level.
You can't insult someone in public and then apologise only in private.
posted by jeather at 3:40 PM on May 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
His tweet is also bullshit:
I have been off Twitter at the behest of my wife. I have apologized to Jessica in private (the way I prefer to conduct apologies to people). I do not have a PR firm repping me. I hope this interview [Gothamist one] I did earlier is edifying on at least a tiny level.
You can't insult someone in public and then apologise only in private.
posted by jeather at 3:40 PM on May 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
I also want to contrast what Cross is saying about how reluctant he was to say anything in the moment that the awful behavior happened, how he obviously feels it would have been costly and somehow unfair because Tambor was mad about "15 years of stuff" that he needed to yell at Walter about, how profoundly fucking uncomfortable he thought he would be if he spoke up, with this detail about Morgan Freeman and Alan Arkin:
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:41 PM on May 24, 2018 [37 favorites]
Eventually, she said, "Alan [Arkin] made a comment telling him to stop. Morgan got freaked out and didn't know what to say."In this instance literally all it took to stop a man from harassing a woman and stun him into silence was another man making one comment. I bet the whole interaction took 30 seconds. Men could actually make each other stop this, without expending very much social or political capital at all. It kind of makes you wonder why more of them don't.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:41 PM on May 24, 2018 [37 favorites]
I do not have a PR firm repping me.
We know.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:42 PM on May 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
We know.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:42 PM on May 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
In this instance literally all it took to stop a man from harassing a woman and stun him into silence was another man making one comment. I bet the whole interaction took 30 seconds. Men could actually make each other stop this, without expending very much social or political capital at all. It kind of makes you wonder why more of them don't.
Again, I feel like there needs to be a business in which men can get paid to be Cyranos and say shit like "Bill Cosby raped a bunch of women" and "Stop harassing women" so that those messages will actually be listened to.
Sigh.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:47 PM on May 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
Again, I feel like there needs to be a business in which men can get paid to be Cyranos and say shit like "Bill Cosby raped a bunch of women" and "Stop harassing women" so that those messages will actually be listened to.
Sigh.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:47 PM on May 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
So apparently Jessica is a crybaby, too. FFS.
1. He straight up says that Tambor never treated any of the male cast members that way. Like it literally has not occurred to him that possibly Walter cried frequently because a majority of her male coworkers openly and routinely treated her like shit for 15 years. Like, maybe the reason the men didn't cry is because no one was harassing them or ignoring their obvious distress at their harassment.
2. It's incredible that men think women cry too much when they have never been exposed to a fraction of the shit women go through and demonstrably cannot handle it. Cross deleted Twitter from his phone after SEVERAL HOURS of people telling him where to go. Men don't understand how lucky they are not to be tested.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:48 PM on May 24, 2018 [35 favorites]
1. He straight up says that Tambor never treated any of the male cast members that way. Like it literally has not occurred to him that possibly Walter cried frequently because a majority of her male coworkers openly and routinely treated her like shit for 15 years. Like, maybe the reason the men didn't cry is because no one was harassing them or ignoring their obvious distress at their harassment.
2. It's incredible that men think women cry too much when they have never been exposed to a fraction of the shit women go through and demonstrably cannot handle it. Cross deleted Twitter from his phone after SEVERAL HOURS of people telling him where to go. Men don't understand how lucky they are not to be tested.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:48 PM on May 24, 2018 [35 favorites]
It's sort of amazing that Cross actually made himself look worse with that Gothamist interview. And the little "I couldn't focus on all this nonsense and don't really know what it's all about because, you know, had to put my daughter to sleep" thing, thrown in oh-so-casually, enrages me.
posted by holborne at 3:48 PM on May 24, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by holborne at 3:48 PM on May 24, 2018 [17 favorites]
Cross sounds confused, at best, as to who did what and who needs apology re: yelling on set.
I seriously do not know how Amber Tamblyn stands him, given what she stands for and the shit she's gone through and his behavior.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:57 PM on May 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
I seriously do not know how Amber Tamblyn stands him, given what she stands for and the shit she's gone through and his behavior.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:57 PM on May 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Anne Helen Petersen, Jason Bateman Showed How “Family” Is Used To Excuse The Inexcusable
Above all, family is a construct, and like all constructs, it covers for something darker, and more complex, than we’d like to admit: that family ties are not the same as love, that blood or legal relation does not necessarily induce compassion, that we are often our worst selves with the people who are automatically, unquestionably bound to us.posted by nicebookrack at 4:07 PM on May 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
Wow, Cross just clearly does not get what happened in that interview was just as bad, maybe worse, than any outburst could be. The denial of her experience to her crying face. He doesn't even know what they're apologizing for. Fuck. And like others have commented, insinuating she has been just as bad and cries all the time anyway.
posted by yellowbinder at 4:07 PM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by yellowbinder at 4:07 PM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
I was just watching the episode where Tobias records himself and is completely unable to perceive the problems with his words.
It's less funny in real life.
posted by TypographicalError at 4:41 PM on May 24, 2018 [17 favorites]
It's less funny in real life.
posted by TypographicalError at 4:41 PM on May 24, 2018 [17 favorites]
The Cultural Vandalism of Jeffrey Tambor
"I can’t say that the show quite is on the “See No More” list alongside House of Cards or Woody Allen’s movies, because Kevin Spacey is in most of every House of Cards episode, and Woody Allen is responsible for every frame of a Woody Allen movie, whereas Tambor’s presence only becomes oppressive when he’s onscreen as George Bluth Sr. or his twin brother Oscar Bluth. But Tambor has just enough screen time to taint any goodwill you might feel for the work.
You know the sensation I’m talking about. You watch and laugh as Walter, Bateman, Shawkat, Michael Cera, and whoever else goof around and make jokes and pratfall, and then Tambor appears and suddenly all you can think about are the accusations of sexual harassment on the set of Transparent by his assistant Van Barnes, co-star Trace Lysette, and the allegation by makeup artist Tamara Delbridge that Tambor “forcibly kissed” her on the set of Never Again in 2001. And then you wonder if any of that also happened on the set of Arrested Development — and if so, which of the actors or crew Tambor inflicted it on, and which were complicit in normalizing it or covering it up. Poof, the spell is broken."
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:55 PM on May 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
"I can’t say that the show quite is on the “See No More” list alongside House of Cards or Woody Allen’s movies, because Kevin Spacey is in most of every House of Cards episode, and Woody Allen is responsible for every frame of a Woody Allen movie, whereas Tambor’s presence only becomes oppressive when he’s onscreen as George Bluth Sr. or his twin brother Oscar Bluth. But Tambor has just enough screen time to taint any goodwill you might feel for the work.
You know the sensation I’m talking about. You watch and laugh as Walter, Bateman, Shawkat, Michael Cera, and whoever else goof around and make jokes and pratfall, and then Tambor appears and suddenly all you can think about are the accusations of sexual harassment on the set of Transparent by his assistant Van Barnes, co-star Trace Lysette, and the allegation by makeup artist Tamara Delbridge that Tambor “forcibly kissed” her on the set of Never Again in 2001. And then you wonder if any of that also happened on the set of Arrested Development — and if so, which of the actors or crew Tambor inflicted it on, and which were complicit in normalizing it or covering it up. Poof, the spell is broken."
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:55 PM on May 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
Ugh, that interview with Cross/Gothamist is soooo long.
The thing about Soloway/Tambor that really raises my blood pressure is that he yelled at her as well as the Executive Producer (a woman). Gah! YOU CAN'T YELL AT THE BOSS, YOU'RE FUCKING FIRED! Except, he wasn't. From the Vanity Fair article:
“I drove myself and my castmates crazy,” Tambor said. “Lines got blurred. I was difficult. I was mean. I yelled at Jill [Soloway]—she told me recently she was afraid of me. I yelled at the wonderful [executive producer] Bridget Bedard in front of everybody. I made her cry. And I apologized and everything, but still, I yelled at her. The assistant directors. I was rude to my assistant. I was moody.
Soloway, according to the article, seemed to just accept that this abuse was part of the working relationship that they had. To their credit, when it became clear that there were other nefarious things going on, source Tambor, they put their foot down. Apparently, Soloway felt somewhat protective of him due to the role he was playing. But, dude, you have the money, work on your shit. If the women can handle it, maybe you can, too.
posted by amanda at 5:20 PM on May 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
The thing about Soloway/Tambor that really raises my blood pressure is that he yelled at her as well as the Executive Producer (a woman). Gah! YOU CAN'T YELL AT THE BOSS, YOU'RE FUCKING FIRED! Except, he wasn't. From the Vanity Fair article:
“I drove myself and my castmates crazy,” Tambor said. “Lines got blurred. I was difficult. I was mean. I yelled at Jill [Soloway]—she told me recently she was afraid of me. I yelled at the wonderful [executive producer] Bridget Bedard in front of everybody. I made her cry. And I apologized and everything, but still, I yelled at her. The assistant directors. I was rude to my assistant. I was moody.
Soloway, according to the article, seemed to just accept that this abuse was part of the working relationship that they had. To their credit, when it became clear that there were other nefarious things going on, source Tambor, they put their foot down. Apparently, Soloway felt somewhat protective of him due to the role he was playing. But, dude, you have the money, work on your shit. If the women can handle it, maybe you can, too.
posted by amanda at 5:20 PM on May 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
Motherfuckers, you should recognize shitty behavior at age 5...you shouldn't have to consult some people.
oh good, I'm defective
posted by Merus at 6:59 PM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
oh good, I'm defective
posted by Merus at 6:59 PM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
David Cross was the one who infuriated me most, even more than Bateman. That whole "Well, gosh, it's not like he just went from zero to 60, it's a cumulative thing"? What the FUCK? A reasonable reading of that is, "Well, you know, she did kind of ask for it." Bateman even follows up Cross's comment by saying, "Not to say you had it coming, Jessica," (in other words, "You really had it coming, Jessica.") What a miserable prick. I always suspected he was one, and boy is this ever proof positive. And how surprising, I don't see any apology from him on Twitter.
I can't help thinking back to the contretemps between Cross and Larry the Cable Guy way back when. Who'd have ever imagined that Larry the Fucking Cable Guy would end up proving to be the lesser tool?
posted by non canadian guy at 8:53 PM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
I can't help thinking back to the contretemps between Cross and Larry the Cable Guy way back when. Who'd have ever imagined that Larry the Fucking Cable Guy would end up proving to be the lesser tool?
posted by non canadian guy at 8:53 PM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm just clinging to Mr. Rogers at this point. Please, please, please let there not be dirt on Mr. Rogers.
He never ONCE credited his mother with knitting him those lovely sweaters!
posted by Chitownfats at 2:37 AM on May 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
He never ONCE credited his mother with knitting him those lovely sweaters!
posted by Chitownfats at 2:37 AM on May 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
He never ONCE credited his mother with knitting him those lovely sweaters!
Rest easy, friend, he did.
The Story Behind Mister Rogers’ Sweaters
posted by mikelieman at 3:33 AM on May 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
Rest easy, friend, he did.
The Story Behind Mister Rogers’ Sweaters
posted by mikelieman at 3:33 AM on May 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
I seriously do not know how Amber Tamblyn stands him, given what she stands for and the shit she's gone through and his behavior.
By her own account on Twitter she is pissed about that interview he gave.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 6:31 AM on May 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
By her own account on Twitter she is pissed about that interview he gave.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 6:31 AM on May 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
I seriously do not know how Amber Tamblyn stands him, given what she stands for and the shit she's gone through and his behavior.
Maybe after this clusterfuck of an article showing how often women are held accountable for the terrible behavior of men around them, we can skip the trick where we proceed to drag a man's wife into a discussion of his bullshit?
Maybe she's going to divorce him. Maybe she's dealing with living in a trash fire universe where almost every man most of us know ends up spouting some of this stuff at some point and you have to decide how to cope. Maybe it doesn't matter because turning to her with the "but aren't you a feminist, shouldn't you be dealing with this?" take is gross.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:42 AM on May 25, 2018 [39 favorites]
Maybe after this clusterfuck of an article showing how often women are held accountable for the terrible behavior of men around them, we can skip the trick where we proceed to drag a man's wife into a discussion of his bullshit?
Maybe she's going to divorce him. Maybe she's dealing with living in a trash fire universe where almost every man most of us know ends up spouting some of this stuff at some point and you have to decide how to cope. Maybe it doesn't matter because turning to her with the "but aren't you a feminist, shouldn't you be dealing with this?" take is gross.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:42 AM on May 25, 2018 [39 favorites]
, we can skip the trick where we proceed to drag a man's wife into a discussion of his bullshit?
especially since david cross did that very thing himself in the interview. all the AMBER TAMBLYN WHERE ARE YOU HOW COULD YOU LET THIS HAPPEN people are repeating David Cross's talking points. how obliging of them. he himself said in that interview he'd go back to his wife and Shawkat and get them to tell him what he did wrong, and because he knows and respects them, unlike Tambor's accusers or any of the other women he's not related to or personally fond of, he'll believe them. so if he doesn't fix himself, we can trust that it's their fault for not explaining things well enough. he did say it was up to them, after all.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:20 AM on May 25, 2018 [14 favorites]
especially since david cross did that very thing himself in the interview. all the AMBER TAMBLYN WHERE ARE YOU HOW COULD YOU LET THIS HAPPEN people are repeating David Cross's talking points. how obliging of them. he himself said in that interview he'd go back to his wife and Shawkat and get them to tell him what he did wrong, and because he knows and respects them, unlike Tambor's accusers or any of the other women he's not related to or personally fond of, he'll believe them. so if he doesn't fix himself, we can trust that it's their fault for not explaining things well enough. he did say it was up to them, after all.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:20 AM on May 25, 2018 [14 favorites]
Jason Bateman Pulled a Real Michael Bluth on That One, Huh: ‘Arrested Development’ is only fun if you maintain the illusion that the cast is nice when the cameras are off
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:30 PM on May 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:30 PM on May 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
-Netflix cancels Arrested Development UK press tour after that infuriating NYT interview Also, David Cross is not on Twitter since the interview because Amber doesn't want him to be on there.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:17 PM on May 27, 2018
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:17 PM on May 27, 2018
One thing that always gets me about so many of these situations it's not even that the men involved are following some older code and haven't updated, they ignore those too. Even if you ignore modern morality of harassment, you aren't supposed to make your grandmother, or women your grandmother's age, cry! But none of them gave a shit, even on that most primitive level.
posted by tavella at 9:23 PM on May 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by tavella at 9:23 PM on May 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Okay, fine, I caved and am watching it to help keep Jessica Walter and Alia Shawkat employed and am generally trying to ignore certain other people. It's....okay. Some good moments here and there, usually involving Maeby and George-Michael. Am glad for Jessica Walter's sake that she and George don't have to spend much time together plotwise. It's not their best...I guess trying to followup later is still a weak point, but it is nice that there's some more interaction with who's left. It seems to improve as it goes on.
Maeby is still the best, really. There's a scene in the seventh that is just goddamned awesome with G-M and Maeby on the phone while she's pretending to be Lucille 2's sister and borrowing her retirement home apartment.
"I turned on the lounge TV. That's my job now. They call me Buttons now. Buttons!"
"Wow, I was just speculying."
"Well, you nailed it, Buttons."
One bit in which Maeby is all, at least my mother never tried to sleep with someone I was dating....oh, wait, Steve Holt. "Never mind, he's family." I will say that this is the season where I think Maeby is actually interested back in G-M once she suggested the ol' cousins kissing to annoy someone who wasn't even there.
"Next thing you know you're sorting through your roommate's pills to figure out which ones will kill his sex drive."
"I mean, I was just dayplotting."
"You're into shit that even Gangy wouldn't do."
"I was just crimestorming."
So has anyone heard why Portia di Rossi is barely in the show and apparently was doing the ol' Good Wife green screen in the few scenes she was in? Now when shit like that happens, I'm wondering if there was some other kind of problem we don't know about yet.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:42 AM on June 2, 2018
Maeby is still the best, really. There's a scene in the seventh that is just goddamned awesome with G-M and Maeby on the phone while she's pretending to be Lucille 2's sister and borrowing her retirement home apartment.
"I turned on the lounge TV. That's my job now. They call me Buttons now. Buttons!"
"Wow, I was just speculying."
"Well, you nailed it, Buttons."
One bit in which Maeby is all, at least my mother never tried to sleep with someone I was dating....oh, wait, Steve Holt. "Never mind, he's family." I will say that this is the season where I think Maeby is actually interested back in G-M once she suggested the ol' cousins kissing to annoy someone who wasn't even there.
"Next thing you know you're sorting through your roommate's pills to figure out which ones will kill his sex drive."
"I mean, I was just dayplotting."
"You're into shit that even Gangy wouldn't do."
"I was just crimestorming."
So has anyone heard why Portia di Rossi is barely in the show and apparently was doing the ol' Good Wife green screen in the few scenes she was in? Now when shit like that happens, I'm wondering if there was some other kind of problem we don't know about yet.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:42 AM on June 2, 2018
So has anyone heard why Portia di Rossi is barely in the show...
She’s retired from acting except for AD, so I’d guess that Hurwitz didn’t want to lean on her too much and make her (publicly) regret that exception.
posted by Etrigan at 10:11 AM on June 2, 2018
She’s retired from acting except for AD, so I’d guess that Hurwitz didn’t want to lean on her too much and make her (publicly) regret that exception.
posted by Etrigan at 10:11 AM on June 2, 2018
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posted by Atom Eyes at 3:30 PM on May 23, 2018 [71 favorites]