Tragedy or comedy, probably publicity

July 4, 2018 9:17 AM

Hollywood history podcast You must Remember This (previously) is back, with a new series fact checking Kenneth Anger's book Hollywood Babylon, the salacious and imperfect tell-all that is the origin of many of Hollywood's urban myths. Interview with more on the book and the podcast.
posted by Artw (19 comments total)

Gish dish.
posted by pracowity at 9:26 AM on July 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

I want to believe
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:31 AM on July 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

Also, a large portion of this season deals with culture wars of the teens and 1920s, during which time the groups (largely church-based) that had pushed for prohibition turned their attention to cleaning up Hollywood. This argument was painted as a moral one but there was really more going on under the surface, such as anti-Semitism, fear of foreigners, and a longing amongst some to reclaim a lost past in which their point of view had prime importance and power in the culture. Sound familiar? Wait until we get to the episode on Will Hays, which has a digression on Warren G. Harding, a president who was both hugely popular and totally incompetent and corrupt.

Between this and Slow Burn (Watergate deepdive podcast from Slate), I am becoming fully persuaded that nothing new ever happens. Not really.
posted by cj_ at 10:21 AM on July 4, 2018 [14 favorites]

I loved Hollywood Babylon as a child, it was one of the "dirty" books I stole from my aunt, and unlike the Scottish highland romance and the biography of Frank Sinatra, my mother never found it, so I still have my copy in storage. As an adult, I have zero interest in celebrities or celebrity gossip (at most, publishing gossip on the old Gawker), but am ready for all the news about Olive Thomas or Thelma Todd. Celebrity gossip and true crime become fascinating to me in black and white with old-timey hats.
posted by betweenthebars at 10:37 AM on July 4, 2018 [8 favorites]

I just listened to the new episode and I have to admit that I am surprised by the lack of something that I fully expected them to cover: The weird way that Intolerance has continued to be an iconic touchstone of Hollywood culture and self-mythologizing in spite of the film's reputed failure.

When the city of Hollywood decided it was time to push out the sleaze and get some urban renewal going it was decided that the renovated Hollywood and Highland shopping and entertainment center was going to be a cornerstone of that project. So what's up with those elephants? When the Disney corporation decided to open a companion park to Disneyland themed to the state of California, their Hollywood Backlot entrance also made use of Griffith's elephants.

I suspect that these days the image of the rearing elephants is much more closely associated in the public's minds with generic Old Hollywood charm than it is with Griffith or his unsuccessful film, and I think that would have been an interesting topic for the podcast to cover.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:47 AM on July 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

I can't tell y'all how cool it is to live in the exact spot all of these things took place and pick out all of the old buildings that are still left, imagine how life in the city was 100 years ago... LA grew up out of NOTHING over a span of about 20 to 30 years and it was isolated AF. It's taken me about 16 years, but I finally truly love it here, and Hollywood Babylon was one of my gateway drugs. Thank you for this!
posted by jbenben at 11:10 AM on July 4, 2018 [4 favorites]

I’m excited about this because listening to YMRT’s series on Charles Manson got me interested in Kenneth Anger. On the other hand, listening to that series also convinced me that YMRT will screw up little details of things. I’m kind of afraid they’ll blow details in their fact check and we won’t even know it.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:39 PM on July 4, 2018

My memory of Hollywood Babylon was that Anger didn't care if the gossip was punching up or down, as long as it was juicy. So, it's one thing to expose the hypocrisy of the rich and powerful, another entirely to publish a photograph of someone accidentally exposing herself, or the crime scene photos of the Black Dahlia.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:40 PM on July 4, 2018

Interesting linkage! FPP title came a bit out of left field though.
posted by I'm always feeling, Blue at 5:58 PM on July 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

Anger was a terrible historian, but I don't think his point was history. It was to create a counter hagiography at a time period when Hollywood was a machine of endless adoring self-promotion. This was long, and probably still is, a hallmark of camp -- a fascination with celebrity tragedy -- and I don't know that I understand it or can understand it, because even though I am very inspired by camp, it is a product of the gay community and I am not part of that. But I think even if you don't have a taste for camp, it is possible to feel the appeal of seeing a mask of glamor torn away and be exposed to the more humanly tragic experiences underneath.

There is a real meanness to Anger's work, though, as Halloween Jack mentions. I think counter myths are probably useful, but, good Lord. There was a sort of partner piece for a long time called This is Hollywood, which were literal maps of Hollywood tragedies, and I was fascinated by it when I was 22 and had moved to Hollywood and was homeless and had a lot of time to wander around and see the building where a b-list actress hanged herself, but now it just seems so awful and needless. Like, those people didn't have adoring myths that needed to be punctured. They were just people who worked in a public industry for a short while and then had the sort of unhappy life that anyone might have, and I don't see books that show where someone who worked at an Office Max took their life.
posted by maxsparber at 8:09 AM on July 5, 2018 [6 favorites]

I don't know if this is something that she wants to talk about, but I would be really curious to know if Longworth's perspective on Hollywood and celebrity (and Hollywood gender dynamics, which have always been one of her big themes) have changed since Rian Johnson became associated with the Star Wars franchise. I'm pretty sure that they've been dating the whole time that she's been doing the podcast, but Johnson had a *really* different relationship to Hollywood celebrity in the podcast's early days than he does now. It must be really weird to spend years commenting on this thing from the margins and then find yourself right in the middle of it, if only by association.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:11 AM on July 5, 2018

I’ve a ww bitbof a suspicion that the heavily emphasized “FIRST CENTURY” bit is a way of getting out of doing stuff like that, though I’d be interested in any follow-up projects on more contemporary subjects.
posted by Artw at 10:09 AM on July 5, 2018

Karina Longworth! I really enjoy her podcast!
posted by Squeak Attack at 11:22 AM on July 5, 2018

I want to believe
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:31 PM on July 4 [1 favorite +] [!]

Eponysterical.

On topic: I love HOLLYWOOD BABYLON, despite knowing that most if not all of it is bullshit and third-hand gossip. Looking forward to Karina going through the various sundry and lurid tales of protean showbiz.
posted by theartandsound at 11:08 AM on July 6, 2018

For late-teens me the meanness was definitely part of the appeal - the whole thing just seemed so punk.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:12 PM on July 6, 2018

OK I listened to the Fatty Arbuckle episode and there is nothing better. She actually went through a bunch of contemporary newspapers. I wonder if some of them were on undigitized microfiche.

Also I want to know what voice lesson school she went to and I want to talk as she does.
posted by bukvich at 12:54 PM on July 19, 2018 [2 favorites]

It's funny: some people say that she's clearly had a lot of voice lessons and has an awesome voice, and others say that she shouldn't be allowed to have a podcast because of her annoying vocal ticks.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:38 PM on July 19, 2018 [1 favorite]

I’m excited about this because listening to YMRT’s series on Charles Manson got me interested in Kenneth Anger. On the other hand, listening to that series also convinced me that YMRT will screw up little details of things. I’m kind of afraid they’ll blow details in their fact check and we won’t even know it.
posted by Going To Maine

I'm really curious about this- what did she miss? I've always respected her research, but I guess it's totally possible that there were gaffes that just flew by me.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 1:40 PM on July 19, 2018

The nits I noticed:

• Described a “helter-skelter” as a rollercoaster, but it’s a slide.
• Described Anger as living at a former Russian embassy, as opposed to at a house colloquially known as “The Russian Embassy”.

GospelOfWesleyWillis noted that she comments on Paul McCartney visiting Haight-Ashbury but it was actually George Harrison who did so.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:28 PM on July 19, 2018 [1 favorite]