What happened when I tried talking to Twitter abusers
July 31, 2018 6:48 PM Subscribe
There’s a lot of discussion about how we need to reach out and talk to people who disagree with us – how we need to extend an olive branch and find common ground – and that’s a lovely sentiment, but in order for that to work, the other party needs to be … well, not a raging asshole.
Yep, yep, yep. IDK, the fantasy of converting a troll is so seductive because it's terrible to feel powerless that there is a large class of people that just hate and there's nothing we can do about it. But I'm beginning to think there really is nothing we can do about it, especially if we're the kind of people who are usually targets.
Put pressure on platforms to have more moderated spaces, maybe? Reach out more to people who are targets and support them and compliment and amplify their work? I feel like hate is like addiction maybe, where you can't force someone to change by being nice to them or mean to them or whatever. The decision to change has to come from within. (Please feel free to correct me though if the metaphor doesn't scan and I'm wrong about hate and/or addiction.)
posted by storytam at 7:05 PM on July 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
Put pressure on platforms to have more moderated spaces, maybe? Reach out more to people who are targets and support them and compliment and amplify their work? I feel like hate is like addiction maybe, where you can't force someone to change by being nice to them or mean to them or whatever. The decision to change has to come from within. (Please feel free to correct me though if the metaphor doesn't scan and I'm wrong about hate and/or addiction.)
posted by storytam at 7:05 PM on July 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
The parallels between this article and a slew of other articles about dealing with Conservatives (lol librul tears!) right now are stunning, although at the end of the day, I expect it's actually the same people.
I'm amazed at her fortitude.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 7:05 PM on July 31, 2018 [9 favorites]
I'm amazed at her fortitude.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 7:05 PM on July 31, 2018 [9 favorites]
I don't even know why I'm on the internet anymore—and it has been my job for almost 20 years.
#hardsame
posted by nikaspark at 7:11 PM on July 31, 2018
#hardsame
posted by nikaspark at 7:11 PM on July 31, 2018
Last week I deleted my twitter account. I was a fairly early adopter, and pushed a lot of my friends toward it, citing twitter's strengths in rapidly breaking news, fostering strange niche communities, and being (seemingly) less narcissistic than facebook. After hearing so many horror stories from women, minorities, and, well, almost everyone, I decided it was time to go.
I have to admit I'm conflicted. Yes, social media must step up and seriously address hate speech, abuse and all the other lurid things which occur. But, at the same time, it seems to me like trying to use a sponge for a dam.
posted by kmkrebs at 7:13 PM on July 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
I have to admit I'm conflicted. Yes, social media must step up and seriously address hate speech, abuse and all the other lurid things which occur. But, at the same time, it seems to me like trying to use a sponge for a dam.
posted by kmkrebs at 7:13 PM on July 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
on the one hand i hope this helps people understand what it's like to have to deal with these gross fucking loser morons who CANNOT BE ~*reached*~, cannot be e-hugged into being less worthless hateful garbage shitbags, absolutely cannot be reasoned with.
and on the other hand i just want to smash things (skulls frex) and scream because i know it still won't be enough, plenty of people will still insist that she wasn't "respectful" or "caring" enough, that she somehow went about it the wrong way and if only she and all other women weren't such wrong faily failures about it then all our problems would be instantly automagically solved.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:14 PM on July 31, 2018 [61 favorites]
and on the other hand i just want to smash things (skulls frex) and scream because i know it still won't be enough, plenty of people will still insist that she wasn't "respectful" or "caring" enough, that she somehow went about it the wrong way and if only she and all other women weren't such wrong faily failures about it then all our problems would be instantly automagically solved.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:14 PM on July 31, 2018 [61 favorites]
anyway, a meteor
posted by poffin boffin at 7:16 PM on July 31, 2018 [58 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 7:16 PM on July 31, 2018 [58 favorites]
What would it take to take down the internet, just DDOS the whole fucker until people stoppped trying and moved on to something else.
Let’s destroy this shit.
posted by nikaspark at 7:29 PM on July 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
Let’s destroy this shit.
posted by nikaspark at 7:29 PM on July 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
The Internet is not to blame for anything other than the spotlight it's casting on the ideas and behaviors that have always been present in the minds of horrible men.
posted by Revvy at 7:31 PM on July 31, 2018 [71 favorites]
posted by Revvy at 7:31 PM on July 31, 2018 [71 favorites]
As someone who spent my life building what I thought was a tool called “the internet” it’s actually turned out to be a weapon and the weapon needs to be dismantled.
posted by nikaspark at 7:35 PM on July 31, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by nikaspark at 7:35 PM on July 31, 2018 [12 favorites]
It sounds like the trolls were distressed by this treatment. So... bot time? It wouldn't be that hard to score twitter comments by troll factor and respond with comments in formats specified in the article.
posted by quillbreaker at 7:44 PM on July 31, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by quillbreaker at 7:44 PM on July 31, 2018 [9 favorites]
So... bot time?
posted by Revvy at 8:02 PM on July 31, 2018 [61 favorites]
@MisogynyBotI can dream, can't I?
Hello, I am a bot created by Twitter and I'm contacting you regarding some of your recents tweets. Would you be willing to answer a few questions?
[Error: This Twitter account cannot be blocked.]
[Error: You cannot send messages over Twitter while you have an active conversation with MisogynyBot.]
[Your Twitter account has been permanently closed at your request. Goodbye.]
posted by Revvy at 8:02 PM on July 31, 2018 [61 favorites]
The Internet is not to blame for anything other than the spotlight it's casting on the ideas and behaviors that have always been present in the minds of horrible men.
How well/poorly does this line up with the gun control argument?
Ie, when does it start to become about the leverage given by the technology and that supposedly there's a (growing?) baseline of people who are antisocial?
How close does the coupling need to be between incitement and actual harm before legal responsibility is triggered? How does free speech make that line more/less ambiguous?
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 8:03 PM on July 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
How well/poorly does this line up with the gun control argument?
Ie, when does it start to become about the leverage given by the technology and that supposedly there's a (growing?) baseline of people who are antisocial?
How close does the coupling need to be between incitement and actual harm before legal responsibility is triggered? How does free speech make that line more/less ambiguous?
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 8:03 PM on July 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
How well/poorly does this line up with the gun control argument?
Poorly, in my opinion, based on the design principles behind the two being very different.
The solution is the same, though. Remove the object from the people who are incapable of using it safely.
posted by Revvy at 8:15 PM on July 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
Poorly, in my opinion, based on the design principles behind the two being very different.
The solution is the same, though. Remove the object from the people who are incapable of using it safely.
posted by Revvy at 8:15 PM on July 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's like these people never left the playground.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:22 PM on July 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:22 PM on July 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
We’ve learned that unfettered interconnectedness between social contexts leads to electronic rails that break the basic functioning layers of our brains unless we put very expensive layers of moderation in place.
Capitalism has zero interest in fixing how this thing breaks us and the internet is now fully captured by capital interest.
We can build a better tool, but I don’t think we can use the tools that built the internet to build a better tool.
posted by nikaspark at 8:28 PM on July 31, 2018 [10 favorites]
Capitalism has zero interest in fixing how this thing breaks us and the internet is now fully captured by capital interest.
We can build a better tool, but I don’t think we can use the tools that built the internet to build a better tool.
posted by nikaspark at 8:28 PM on July 31, 2018 [10 favorites]
How well/poorly does this line up with the gun control argument?
What it makes me think of is a (possibly apocryphal) anecdote I came across that one of the key inventors behind the loudspeaker blamed himself for its use in the rise of fascism. It makes me wonder if this is a regular pattern in the adoption of popular and/or revolutionary technologies, where after the initial utopian ideals involved in their creation, and then the more cynical exploitation of the possibilities presented, we see a sort of "peak evil" (or "peak awful") before it settles down into just a thing in our lives.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:40 PM on July 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
What it makes me think of is a (possibly apocryphal) anecdote I came across that one of the key inventors behind the loudspeaker blamed himself for its use in the rise of fascism. It makes me wonder if this is a regular pattern in the adoption of popular and/or revolutionary technologies, where after the initial utopian ideals involved in their creation, and then the more cynical exploitation of the possibilities presented, we see a sort of "peak evil" (or "peak awful") before it settles down into just a thing in our lives.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:40 PM on July 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
Just a reminder that how people behave when they are on the internet, out of range of a punch in the nose, is HOW THEY REALLY ARE.
posted by JohnFromGR at 9:08 PM on July 31, 2018 [35 favorites]
posted by JohnFromGR at 9:08 PM on July 31, 2018 [35 favorites]
What fascinated me was the troll discomfort with being seriously asked questions and not allowed to control the narrative. Of course they then storm off and go find someone they perceive will be easier to bully into silence next, but it makes me wonder about the wisdom of 'don't read the comments section.' What would happen if these online hatemongers were mobbed aggressively right back instead of being passively ignored by others?
Moderation and removal--consequences from people with perceived social power--is obviously the best response, but I can't be the only woman who is more than a little cynical about the concept that the major platforms will grow a little fortitude any time soon. And universality is a major draw of these platforms--I'm on Twitter, for example, because I am at a junior and fledgling career point in which I'm often isolated, and Twitter has a critical mass of other scientists in my field. If I abandon Twitter completely for, say, Mastodon, I lose the opportunity to have conversations and build connections with the many, many people in my field who are on Twitter but not Mastodon.
Thing is, this actually isn't anything new in one sense. Fifty years ago, I wouldn't have been chafing at the roving misogynists on Twitter making it an uncomfortable platform for me: I'd have been chafing at common practices of networking at sports games and strip clubs that exclude women instead. Power and status are socially mediated, and the answer to women demanding access cannot just be to tell them to leave the room. And for better or worse, that's what the "let's cancel the Internet" sentiment reads like to me.
Social media platform access without harassment should be a right for all. That's the very thing that these men are afraid of. So how do we frighten them into keeping their more vile opinions to themselves?
posted by sciatrix at 9:09 PM on July 31, 2018 [39 favorites]
Moderation and removal--consequences from people with perceived social power--is obviously the best response, but I can't be the only woman who is more than a little cynical about the concept that the major platforms will grow a little fortitude any time soon. And universality is a major draw of these platforms--I'm on Twitter, for example, because I am at a junior and fledgling career point in which I'm often isolated, and Twitter has a critical mass of other scientists in my field. If I abandon Twitter completely for, say, Mastodon, I lose the opportunity to have conversations and build connections with the many, many people in my field who are on Twitter but not Mastodon.
Thing is, this actually isn't anything new in one sense. Fifty years ago, I wouldn't have been chafing at the roving misogynists on Twitter making it an uncomfortable platform for me: I'd have been chafing at common practices of networking at sports games and strip clubs that exclude women instead. Power and status are socially mediated, and the answer to women demanding access cannot just be to tell them to leave the room. And for better or worse, that's what the "let's cancel the Internet" sentiment reads like to me.
Social media platform access without harassment should be a right for all. That's the very thing that these men are afraid of. So how do we frighten them into keeping their more vile opinions to themselves?
posted by sciatrix at 9:09 PM on July 31, 2018 [39 favorites]
I long for the days where, "On the internet, nobody knows you are a dog."
I don't remember asking for Morbeus's "monsters from the id," 24/7, but here were are.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:11 PM on July 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't remember asking for Morbeus's "monsters from the id," 24/7, but here were are.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:11 PM on July 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
I should add: offline, no one is afraid of a punch in the nose from me. I have very little upper arm strength; I'm short; I'm small and really, my worst weapon is my willingness to yell.
What stops people from saying these things to me in real life? I'm telling you, it's not the threat of any physical harm from me, because it's hard for me to seriously harm anyone. They're afraid someone else might see them. They're afraid someone else might judge them.
How do we bring that fear of judgement for vile behavior back into online social behavior?
posted by sciatrix at 9:13 PM on July 31, 2018 [53 favorites]
What stops people from saying these things to me in real life? I'm telling you, it's not the threat of any physical harm from me, because it's hard for me to seriously harm anyone. They're afraid someone else might see them. They're afraid someone else might judge them.
How do we bring that fear of judgement for vile behavior back into online social behavior?
posted by sciatrix at 9:13 PM on July 31, 2018 [53 favorites]
by those of us who are not small throwing punches maybe?
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:14 PM on July 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:14 PM on July 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Internet did not do this. Everything will be put to its every worst possible use, eventually. We are a species that is just smart enough to get itself into real trouble. The Internet is just one of many wonderful ideas that depend on the moral and ethical fiber of the species being what might wish it to be rather than what it is.
I want to make the well-reasoned and supported argument about how humanity is basically conservative and resents any forced changes that are not of immediate and clear benefit. Further I would point out that humans who can get away with being emotionally immature will often remain so, at least in percentages significant enough to leave us with a mountain of assholes. Mostly I want to scream, "We have a universal platform and you are surprised that the loudest, most oafish, self-centered POS's have turned parts of it into a shitshow? Did you even go to High School? College? Did you think the loud, obnoxious, jerks of the world would all grow up into good and decent human beings? Why are you surprised? Why do you think this behavior has fuck all to do with Capitalism? Socialism produces assholes too. Asshole anarchists are a thing, I have met more than a few. WHY IN THE NAME OF ALL THINGS ARE YOU SURPRISED?!"
It may be that there is no solution to the problem that is not worse than the problem. Regulate speech? Do you want that thin end of that wedge? Tools that harass the harassers? How soon until they fall into the hands of harassers? Demean them? Some feel that would be stooping to their level, others feel that it feeds them, others that it is just wrong to mistreat another human being. Personally I would like to see them identifyed publicly and shamed in front of the world. Sure they would have supporters but that just tells us who to put on the 'B' ark. The Golgafrinchans got it wrong. The redundant workforce is fine. The bloody idiots and assholes that make up the abusosphere on the other hand need to be sent to another planet. Possibly Elon Musk was looking for his fellow crap talkers to join him on the colonization of Mars. It would be a great. Everyone would be so busy trying to survive that they would have almost no energy to be assholes.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 9:29 PM on July 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
I want to make the well-reasoned and supported argument about how humanity is basically conservative and resents any forced changes that are not of immediate and clear benefit. Further I would point out that humans who can get away with being emotionally immature will often remain so, at least in percentages significant enough to leave us with a mountain of assholes. Mostly I want to scream, "We have a universal platform and you are surprised that the loudest, most oafish, self-centered POS's have turned parts of it into a shitshow? Did you even go to High School? College? Did you think the loud, obnoxious, jerks of the world would all grow up into good and decent human beings? Why are you surprised? Why do you think this behavior has fuck all to do with Capitalism? Socialism produces assholes too. Asshole anarchists are a thing, I have met more than a few. WHY IN THE NAME OF ALL THINGS ARE YOU SURPRISED?!"
It may be that there is no solution to the problem that is not worse than the problem. Regulate speech? Do you want that thin end of that wedge? Tools that harass the harassers? How soon until they fall into the hands of harassers? Demean them? Some feel that would be stooping to their level, others feel that it feeds them, others that it is just wrong to mistreat another human being. Personally I would like to see them identifyed publicly and shamed in front of the world. Sure they would have supporters but that just tells us who to put on the 'B' ark. The Golgafrinchans got it wrong. The redundant workforce is fine. The bloody idiots and assholes that make up the abusosphere on the other hand need to be sent to another planet. Possibly Elon Musk was looking for his fellow crap talkers to join him on the colonization of Mars. It would be a great. Everyone would be so busy trying to survive that they would have almost no energy to be assholes.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 9:29 PM on July 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
The main issue is that the platforms are too large and the moderators too distant from the actual discussion at hand.
posted by Typhoon Jim at 9:53 PM on July 31, 2018
posted by Typhoon Jim at 9:53 PM on July 31, 2018
The only solution is to block early, block often. I would suggest reporting things but let’s face it, Twitter doesn’t give a shit about what you report. Just wander around blocking anyone and everyone you see, people you’ve never interacted with, people you see being abusive in other people people’s mentions. These people don’t have a right to be heard. I don’t have any concern about blocking some false positives - there are plenty of good people in the world who deserve my attention. If I accidentally blocked you when you were having a bad day and said something you now regret? Tough shit, sunshine. Ain’t got time for that. There are some great anti-nazi, anti-TERF, anti-GG blocklists going around - make the most of them. As a wise man once said, Blocked block blocked, none of you are free of sin.
posted by Jimbob at 9:59 PM on July 31, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Jimbob at 9:59 PM on July 31, 2018 [11 favorites]
the problem is male entitlement.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:59 PM on July 31, 2018 [31 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 9:59 PM on July 31, 2018 [31 favorites]
the problem is always, always male entitlement.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:00 PM on July 31, 2018 [46 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:00 PM on July 31, 2018 [46 favorites]
I don't use Twitter, but I'm kinda shocked they don't permaban threats of deadly violence.
posted by Brocktoon at 10:05 PM on July 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 10:05 PM on July 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
no you only get banned for making elon musk parody accounts
posted by poffin boffin at 10:08 PM on July 31, 2018 [51 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:08 PM on July 31, 2018 [51 favorites]
Twitter is really fucked up when it comes to harassment and trolling, and so is Facebook (forget about Reddit, of course).
I generally use Twitter to share interesting links (and discuss New Urbanism with fellow geeks), and have been lucky both because of the subject matter and because my gender to encounter few trolls there.
Facebook is different. The mayor of my city is a woman, and she used to get the most hateful comments. I did what I could to call out people who left those comments but it was never-ending and the mayor eventually left Facebook because of the abuse.
I have a wide variety of Facebook "friends" or contacts, thanks to my background as a Japanese-English translator. I've noticed that if I post a political link (about, say, nuclear power plants in Japan), it can lead to the most outrageous arguments, and women can get shut down. I went offline for a few hours and when I returned to Facebook a couple of my female friends had PMed me to say that some of my male friends had been very rude to them, to the point of being abusive.
I persuaded my male friends to apologize, but one of the women hasn't really interacted with me since. Which makes me really sad, since I really valued her insights and friendship.
I don't know what it is about being a man online where we have to be so abusive and terrible.
posted by JamesBay at 10:15 PM on July 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
I generally use Twitter to share interesting links (and discuss New Urbanism with fellow geeks), and have been lucky both because of the subject matter and because my gender to encounter few trolls there.
Facebook is different. The mayor of my city is a woman, and she used to get the most hateful comments. I did what I could to call out people who left those comments but it was never-ending and the mayor eventually left Facebook because of the abuse.
I have a wide variety of Facebook "friends" or contacts, thanks to my background as a Japanese-English translator. I've noticed that if I post a political link (about, say, nuclear power plants in Japan), it can lead to the most outrageous arguments, and women can get shut down. I went offline for a few hours and when I returned to Facebook a couple of my female friends had PMed me to say that some of my male friends had been very rude to them, to the point of being abusive.
I persuaded my male friends to apologize, but one of the women hasn't really interacted with me since. Which makes me really sad, since I really valued her insights and friendship.
I don't know what it is about being a man online where we have to be so abusive and terrible.
posted by JamesBay at 10:15 PM on July 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
There are definitely tactical steps that can be taken while some of us take on the work of a fundamental reexamination of how we think communities should connect to each other via a global digital medium.
I desire nuking the internet from orbit, I know that’s just me feeling resigned and angry.
There’s a way to do both the tactical and strategic work without each antagonizing the other, both approaches have validity and merit and urgent need. That said I personally have no labor that I am able to provide to tactical solutions in a way that keeps my mental health in a good place. The only option I have is to hang out here on metafilter and ignore the rest of the internet at large. Hugs offered to anyone who was chafed by my glibness.
posted by nikaspark at 10:27 PM on July 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
I desire nuking the internet from orbit, I know that’s just me feeling resigned and angry.
There’s a way to do both the tactical and strategic work without each antagonizing the other, both approaches have validity and merit and urgent need. That said I personally have no labor that I am able to provide to tactical solutions in a way that keeps my mental health in a good place. The only option I have is to hang out here on metafilter and ignore the rest of the internet at large. Hugs offered to anyone who was chafed by my glibness.
posted by nikaspark at 10:27 PM on July 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
Twitter has gotten totally unpredictable as far as what shows up in your feed. Sometimes it's posts nobody you follow wrote or retweeted but someone you follow absently "liked" or maybe replied to, which effectively makes it impossible to choose who to really follow. It seems to prioritize controversial posts, too.
To me this makes the platform exhausting--it's like if I had to hear every political rant any of my acquaintances ever half-nodded to before I could hear what's new with them--but of course it makes violent angry defensive men more violent, angry and defensive and marginalized people feel more marginalized.
posted by smelendez at 11:18 PM on July 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
To me this makes the platform exhausting--it's like if I had to hear every political rant any of my acquaintances ever half-nodded to before I could hear what's new with them--but of course it makes violent angry defensive men more violent, angry and defensive and marginalized people feel more marginalized.
posted by smelendez at 11:18 PM on July 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
You can't change anyone's mind on the internet. You need to hunt them down in real life first.
posted by fshgrl at 11:28 PM on July 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 11:28 PM on July 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
Twitter and Facebook are weapons. They are used as propaganda weapons, as weapons of abuse, and as literal murder weapons. You can find examples of all three in just the last few weeks. Why are we putting up with this?
posted by simra at 12:08 AM on August 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by simra at 12:08 AM on August 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
What would happen if these online hatemongers were mobbed aggressively right back instead of being passively ignored by others?
Other people who don't realize what you're doing, will take you to task for not being polite and just responding to the ideas and not the speaker. It takes a community to pull off "troll the trolls." When you have community support, it's glorious to watch them sputter and eventually slink away. But it's not something a person or a group can just decide to do - it has to be part of the community standards at that site or forum.
Why are we putting up with this?
When I was 11 years old, I lived in Arkansas and much of my family lived in California. A phone call to California cost 38 cents a minute during daytime hours - in seventies money. A whole lot of us are willing to slog through a great deal of sewage for cheap-almost-free communication.
And the trolls shift platforms and techniques faster than policy changes can drive them out. The logic "just block the bad actors" sounds reasonable before you realize they move in swarms.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:22 AM on August 1, 2018 [9 favorites]
Other people who don't realize what you're doing, will take you to task for not being polite and just responding to the ideas and not the speaker. It takes a community to pull off "troll the trolls." When you have community support, it's glorious to watch them sputter and eventually slink away. But it's not something a person or a group can just decide to do - it has to be part of the community standards at that site or forum.
Why are we putting up with this?
When I was 11 years old, I lived in Arkansas and much of my family lived in California. A phone call to California cost 38 cents a minute during daytime hours - in seventies money. A whole lot of us are willing to slog through a great deal of sewage for cheap-almost-free communication.
And the trolls shift platforms and techniques faster than policy changes can drive them out. The logic "just block the bad actors" sounds reasonable before you realize they move in swarms.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:22 AM on August 1, 2018 [9 favorites]
How do we bring that fear of judgement for vile behavior back into online social behavior?
Vigilante squads of doxxers and countertrolls?
Which would quickly reveal that twitter has already picked a side, because their stupid metrics make them think they have to cater to Nazis
If I were nutso rich I think it would be fun to be an activist investor of a certain stripe at Twitter, but then, holy hell, the trolls
posted by schadenfrau at 12:55 AM on August 1, 2018
Vigilante squads of doxxers and countertrolls?
Which would quickly reveal that twitter has already picked a side, because their stupid metrics make them think they have to cater to Nazis
If I were nutso rich I think it would be fun to be an activist investor of a certain stripe at Twitter, but then, holy hell, the trolls
posted by schadenfrau at 12:55 AM on August 1, 2018
Civilization was doing a passable job before the commercial/social part of the internet happened - not perfect for marginalized groups especially,, but hey, wasnt that much better than now for the vast majority. I'm expecting to be dead by the time a future gen rejects it for everything other than compulsory work-use in favor of olde timey days when you found local like-minded iidiots who were willing to put up with your nonsense because the good outweighed the bad. Hang out, have a good/bad (or other) experience that wasn't recordable, editable, or sharable except for those involved with it. To do otherwise will be socially lame, unauthentic, or unacceptable. So, ya, we'll all be dead by then.
posted by greenskpr at 2:11 AM on August 1, 2018
posted by greenskpr at 2:11 AM on August 1, 2018
Regulate speech? Do you want that thin end of that wedge?
We already regulate speech, both offline and on. If there is a wedge, it's already well seated and partly driven in.
Twitter and Facebook are weapons. They are used as propaganda weapons, as weapons of abuse, and as literal murder weapons.
Maybe I've missed a news story about someone beating someone else to death with a blade server or something, but I really can't see how they can be used as "literal murder weapons"...
posted by Dysk at 3:19 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
We already regulate speech, both offline and on. If there is a wedge, it's already well seated and partly driven in.
Twitter and Facebook are weapons. They are used as propaganda weapons, as weapons of abuse, and as literal murder weapons.
Maybe I've missed a news story about someone beating someone else to death with a blade server or something, but I really can't see how they can be used as "literal murder weapons"...
posted by Dysk at 3:19 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
The Internet has hurt these people. I mean, I guess some of them are subway masturbators on their day off, but I suspect most of them would have their hatred muscle slowly atrophying if they could only mutter at the TV and not abuse anonymous strangers. Now they're abusers, whatever they feel about the term, and it's because they're on a platform that makes it easy and convenient.
Zoe Quinn's excellent book Crash Override has suggestions (including organised group action) to make it harder and less convenient. The problem is, you can't hit back without further raising the temperature. And you violate the sort-of norm that says "you shouldn't face consequences for shit you do online: it's speech, not IRL". That norm of course isn't applied to everyone.
Basically A Rape in Cyberspace was written 25 years ago, and it feels like we've let everyone in without solving the practical problem it describes at any kind of scale.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 3:56 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Zoe Quinn's excellent book Crash Override has suggestions (including organised group action) to make it harder and less convenient. The problem is, you can't hit back without further raising the temperature. And you violate the sort-of norm that says "you shouldn't face consequences for shit you do online: it's speech, not IRL". That norm of course isn't applied to everyone.
Basically A Rape in Cyberspace was written 25 years ago, and it feels like we've let everyone in without solving the practical problem it describes at any kind of scale.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 3:56 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I would suggest reporting things but let’s face it, Twitter doesn’t give a shit about what you report.
I've actually had some success getting Twitter to act, surprisingly.
I think the trick is to overwhelm them - if I see a guy making some kind of violent threat, I will report that one tweet. But then I go into the guy's feed and go down the list for a page or so, reporting any other tweets I see that also make violent threats, giving each one their own report. It takes me a few extra minutes, but I usually end up sending about seven or eight reports all at once.
At the very least I've gotten guys locked out of their accounts for 24 hours. About 40% of the time the accounts get booted.
It can't be magic on my part. I think the multiple-reports thing is part of it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:47 AM on August 1, 2018 [31 favorites]
I've actually had some success getting Twitter to act, surprisingly.
I think the trick is to overwhelm them - if I see a guy making some kind of violent threat, I will report that one tweet. But then I go into the guy's feed and go down the list for a page or so, reporting any other tweets I see that also make violent threats, giving each one their own report. It takes me a few extra minutes, but I usually end up sending about seven or eight reports all at once.
At the very least I've gotten guys locked out of their accounts for 24 hours. About 40% of the time the accounts get booted.
It can't be magic on my part. I think the multiple-reports thing is part of it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:47 AM on August 1, 2018 [31 favorites]
I have also had success by reporting multiple tweets. I'm not brave enough to tweet publicly about isms, but I follow folks who are doing that work, and I quietly report anyone being egregious in the replies. The key is not to just report the one egregious reply they made, but to dig through their profile and recent tweets so that I can report their last 5 racist tweets, their last 5 misogynistic tweets, their cover photo that contains a swastika, and whatever else.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 5:31 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 5:31 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
The Internet is not to blame for anything other than the spotlight it's casting on the ideas and behaviors that have always been present in the minds of horrible men.
The Internet isn't some neutral platform. It was created by humans and entrenches their prejudices and privileges and obliviousness. The web absolutely is to blame, as these failings allowed the vilest viewpoints a platform, allowed them to organize, and allowed them to use the tools of the web for campaigns of terror. This isn't the way the web has to be, it's how the people who made it decided it should be.
posted by maxsparber at 5:32 AM on August 1, 2018 [15 favorites]
The Internet isn't some neutral platform. It was created by humans and entrenches their prejudices and privileges and obliviousness. The web absolutely is to blame, as these failings allowed the vilest viewpoints a platform, allowed them to organize, and allowed them to use the tools of the web for campaigns of terror. This isn't the way the web has to be, it's how the people who made it decided it should be.
posted by maxsparber at 5:32 AM on August 1, 2018 [15 favorites]
It can't be magic on my part. I think the multiple-reports thing is part of it.
My guess is that there’s some sort of recency metric built into the reporting, so X reports spread out over a day aren’t enough to trigger a lock out, but X reports in five minutes are
Which might account for part of the Nazi preferential treatment — they come after people in organized swarms that optimize those metrics; normal people do not.
This is all a guess based on how other things have worked, but it’s also a transparently stupid way to run things, so...feels like it’s probably at least a little correct.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:39 AM on August 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
My guess is that there’s some sort of recency metric built into the reporting, so X reports spread out over a day aren’t enough to trigger a lock out, but X reports in five minutes are
Which might account for part of the Nazi preferential treatment — they come after people in organized swarms that optimize those metrics; normal people do not.
This is all a guess based on how other things have worked, but it’s also a transparently stupid way to run things, so...feels like it’s probably at least a little correct.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:39 AM on August 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
I was mistaken. In the most recent case the murder weapon was WhatsApp. These platforms are murder weapons the same way a nuclear button is.
posted by simra at 6:05 AM on August 1, 2018
posted by simra at 6:05 AM on August 1, 2018
I have a bit of personal and professional experience with this topic.
The only thing I've ever seen really work to dissuade trolls is to use their tactics against them. By that I don't mean using hate speech or violent threats. I do mean gleefully arguing with them in bad faith, mocking them (in a way that indicate you're having fun tormenting them), and drawing them in for a few minutes then wasting their time with nonsensical or actively surrealist shit. It is also effective to reverse-mob them - quote their insulting Tweets and share them with your entire Twitter list while encouraging all your friends to mock them, too.
While trolls do thrive off eliciting a reaction from people, they want a negative or an emotional reaction. They're generally not keen on being tormented or publicly mocked themselves, by people who show no public signs that they are themselves bothered by or angry about the troll's behavior. They are not expecting the creature they are poking with a stick to come back at them with a pointy stick of its own.
In cases where vicious trolls are doxxing people, the only thing that I've seen reliably work is...doxxing them back. This is particularly effective if done in a semi-private way, so that they know their information has been exposed, but they're also given the option of retreating before it is shared with the entire Internet. They usually take the option of retreating.
These tactics are, in my anecdotal but fairly extensive experience, surprisingly effective. They also are very ethically and philosophically problematic, in ways that I fully acknowledge and am forced to grapple with. They say something very dark and nasty about human behavior.
It would be infinitely better if platforms like Twitter and Facebook took on the responsibility of moderating away trolls and bullies themselves. In the absence of that, we're forced to choose between silencing ourselves on still-popular platforms, or what are (in essence) vigilante tactics. It sucks.
posted by faineg at 6:27 AM on August 1, 2018 [25 favorites]
The only thing I've ever seen really work to dissuade trolls is to use their tactics against them. By that I don't mean using hate speech or violent threats. I do mean gleefully arguing with them in bad faith, mocking them (in a way that indicate you're having fun tormenting them), and drawing them in for a few minutes then wasting their time with nonsensical or actively surrealist shit. It is also effective to reverse-mob them - quote their insulting Tweets and share them with your entire Twitter list while encouraging all your friends to mock them, too.
While trolls do thrive off eliciting a reaction from people, they want a negative or an emotional reaction. They're generally not keen on being tormented or publicly mocked themselves, by people who show no public signs that they are themselves bothered by or angry about the troll's behavior. They are not expecting the creature they are poking with a stick to come back at them with a pointy stick of its own.
In cases where vicious trolls are doxxing people, the only thing that I've seen reliably work is...doxxing them back. This is particularly effective if done in a semi-private way, so that they know their information has been exposed, but they're also given the option of retreating before it is shared with the entire Internet. They usually take the option of retreating.
These tactics are, in my anecdotal but fairly extensive experience, surprisingly effective. They also are very ethically and philosophically problematic, in ways that I fully acknowledge and am forced to grapple with. They say something very dark and nasty about human behavior.
It would be infinitely better if platforms like Twitter and Facebook took on the responsibility of moderating away trolls and bullies themselves. In the absence of that, we're forced to choose between silencing ourselves on still-popular platforms, or what are (in essence) vigilante tactics. It sucks.
posted by faineg at 6:27 AM on August 1, 2018 [25 favorites]
Do you consider yourself a verbal abuser of women?
Absolutely not. I consider myself a truth teller.
Whatever, Sexist Gandalf. I would bet everything I own that this guy is a Jordan Peterson stan. You can fuck right off with that "truth teller" bullshit, dude.
It was fascinating in a horrible way to see all the different psychological and rhetorical tactics these assholes resorted to when confronted in order to feel like they "won" the exchange and/or assure themselves they were the victim, or at least not the abuser. Engaging with these guys must feel like racing around your kitchen trying to step on cockroaches as they scurry about. It's clear that the internet only really works in a heavily moderated environment because people (and of course, especially men) left to their own devices combined with anonymity leads to...well, Twitter. It enables and amplifies sociopathic behaviour, and I don't see any way around that because so many people are so, so shitty.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:34 AM on August 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Absolutely not. I consider myself a truth teller.
Whatever, Sexist Gandalf. I would bet everything I own that this guy is a Jordan Peterson stan. You can fuck right off with that "truth teller" bullshit, dude.
It was fascinating in a horrible way to see all the different psychological and rhetorical tactics these assholes resorted to when confronted in order to feel like they "won" the exchange and/or assure themselves they were the victim, or at least not the abuser. Engaging with these guys must feel like racing around your kitchen trying to step on cockroaches as they scurry about. It's clear that the internet only really works in a heavily moderated environment because people (and of course, especially men) left to their own devices combined with anonymity leads to...well, Twitter. It enables and amplifies sociopathic behaviour, and I don't see any way around that because so many people are so, so shitty.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:34 AM on August 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
No doubt about it, we're knee-deep in our own shit on this here information superhighway. Much like we were knee-deep in it literally in medieval London, but people then didn't go blaming the streets. You hire teams to clean it up, you dig sewers, you come up with new laws and social norms around throwing shit our your window, and you enforce consequences when people/businesses fail to keep the public way shit-free.
We all take the same streets online as those jackbooted thugs to get to our jobs, our friends' place, our plush MeFi coffeehouse, our own protests. We can find ways to keep them clean. Twitter will be gone in a blink; what's the next platform, who will build it, how will we make it work for us? Whose streets?
posted by Freyja at 6:37 AM on August 1, 2018 [18 favorites]
We all take the same streets online as those jackbooted thugs to get to our jobs, our friends' place, our plush MeFi coffeehouse, our own protests. We can find ways to keep them clean. Twitter will be gone in a blink; what's the next platform, who will build it, how will we make it work for us? Whose streets?
posted by Freyja at 6:37 AM on August 1, 2018 [18 favorites]
Almost all of the "conversion" stories I've seen have involved weeks, months, or years of dialogue and exposure through face-to-face interactions, where there was a certain degree of interpersonal and professional self-regulation going on.
"Do not feed the trolls," first developed on moderated computer-mediated communication. Going nose-to-nose and post-to-post with a troll almost never changed the troll's behavior, and made a mess for moderators to clean up or fellow participants to filter. It assumes though that there is a banhammer wielded by a responsible adult. It doesn't help that with the transition of just about everything to "web 2.0" we're mostly at the mercy of the site's creators when it comes to implementation of client-side filtering.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 6:39 AM on August 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Do not feed the trolls," first developed on moderated computer-mediated communication. Going nose-to-nose and post-to-post with a troll almost never changed the troll's behavior, and made a mess for moderators to clean up or fellow participants to filter. It assumes though that there is a banhammer wielded by a responsible adult. It doesn't help that with the transition of just about everything to "web 2.0" we're mostly at the mercy of the site's creators when it comes to implementation of client-side filtering.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 6:39 AM on August 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
They also are very ethically and philosophically problematic
I’m not having that many problems with it tbh
posted by schadenfrau at 6:40 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I’m not having that many problems with it tbh
posted by schadenfrau at 6:40 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
The only thing I've ever seen really work to dissuade trolls is to use their tactics against them. By that I don't mean using hate speech or violent threats. I do mean gleefully arguing with them in bad faith, mocking them (in a way that indicate you're having fun tormenting them), and drawing them in for a few minutes then wasting their time with nonsensical or actively surrealist shit.
Yeah, this is actually what I meant by mobbing trolls back. It's not a great tactic for all the reasons you mention and it certainly does not compare to having moderation and mediation from folks with more power within the space. It's the sort of thing you do when there is no appealing to the fair judgement of authority to make harassment stop.
But it does, I find, really reduce the extent to which trolls target me, even when I'm making similar arguments to people who are being heavily targeted. And I think that's because I don't have any compunction outright making fun of men for their failure to adhere to their stated values (e.g. for badly misunderstanding science, for example, when they're throwing pseudoscience at me) when and if I respond to them. It isn't nice, and it's not remotely how I respond if I think criticism or engagement is happening with genuine good faith and respect. But it's definitely how I minimize my interaction with harassers--when I'm feeling particularly annoyed, I pick one who has said something particularly ridiculous, I hold him up, and I rip his arguments apart publicly or make fun of his failure to read what I'm saying.
I respond to people who try to silence me with harassment by attempting to humiliate them into silence or else by removing them from my space. It would be better if we as a culture would provide culturally sanctioned consequences to being this much of an asshole, but the current state of things means that the only real option many people have for remaining in these spaces is cultivating skills for a certain level of sharp cruelty as a self defense mechanism. And not everyone is always capable of doing those things, and in some cases the abusers will then, furious, escalate to threats and violence--for which the initial target will almost certainly be blamed.
It's a nasty bind.
posted by sciatrix at 6:42 AM on August 1, 2018 [9 favorites]
Yeah, this is actually what I meant by mobbing trolls back. It's not a great tactic for all the reasons you mention and it certainly does not compare to having moderation and mediation from folks with more power within the space. It's the sort of thing you do when there is no appealing to the fair judgement of authority to make harassment stop.
But it does, I find, really reduce the extent to which trolls target me, even when I'm making similar arguments to people who are being heavily targeted. And I think that's because I don't have any compunction outright making fun of men for their failure to adhere to their stated values (e.g. for badly misunderstanding science, for example, when they're throwing pseudoscience at me) when and if I respond to them. It isn't nice, and it's not remotely how I respond if I think criticism or engagement is happening with genuine good faith and respect. But it's definitely how I minimize my interaction with harassers--when I'm feeling particularly annoyed, I pick one who has said something particularly ridiculous, I hold him up, and I rip his arguments apart publicly or make fun of his failure to read what I'm saying.
I respond to people who try to silence me with harassment by attempting to humiliate them into silence or else by removing them from my space. It would be better if we as a culture would provide culturally sanctioned consequences to being this much of an asshole, but the current state of things means that the only real option many people have for remaining in these spaces is cultivating skills for a certain level of sharp cruelty as a self defense mechanism. And not everyone is always capable of doing those things, and in some cases the abusers will then, furious, escalate to threats and violence--for which the initial target will almost certainly be blamed.
It's a nasty bind.
posted by sciatrix at 6:42 AM on August 1, 2018 [9 favorites]
I don't know that tit-for-tat is a solution, given how harassment within LGBTQ communities is starting to pick up some of the worst characteristics of right-wing harassment.
I think some of this can be addressed on a structural level. Twitter kind of put itself in a bind of being not-chat and not-blogging. But I see no reason a large number of messages in a short period of time shouldn't trigger the same kinds of embargoes, delays, and reviews that we use for spam control in email.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 7:19 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I think some of this can be addressed on a structural level. Twitter kind of put itself in a bind of being not-chat and not-blogging. But I see no reason a large number of messages in a short period of time shouldn't trigger the same kinds of embargoes, delays, and reviews that we use for spam control in email.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 7:19 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oh, 100% co-signed re: intra group harassment looking like this. It's absolutely not a purely right wing cis straight male phenomenon, but for some reason even the ones who use the rhetoric of inclusivity tend in practice to target the most marginalized people they can. See here things like SFF's Winterfox/Requires Hate fiasco, or different corners of queer Tumblr, or or or.
I use the same tactics for all of them, for very similar reasons--I just vary my specific rhetoric to suit. But I agree with you completely that this is not remotely an ideal situation, and I think that this behavior can actually work to normalize further harassment and mob behaviors even though it's effective on small scales.
posted by sciatrix at 7:25 AM on August 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
I use the same tactics for all of them, for very similar reasons--I just vary my specific rhetoric to suit. But I agree with you completely that this is not remotely an ideal situation, and I think that this behavior can actually work to normalize further harassment and mob behaviors even though it's effective on small scales.
posted by sciatrix at 7:25 AM on August 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
I don't know that tit-for-tat is a solution, given how harassment within LGBTQ communities is starting to pick up some of the worst characteristics of right-wing harassment.
I’m absolutely 100% fine with responding to TERFs with the same ferocity.
I think some of this can be addressed on a structural level. Twitter kind of put itself in a bind of being not-chat and not-blogging. But I see no reason a large number of messages in a short period of time shouldn't trigger the same kinds of embargoes, delays, and reviews that we use for spam control in email.
The “reason” is that the harassment mobs drive the engagement metrics that Twitter uses (among other things) to justify its valuation. They will never do anything that pushes those metrics in the wrong direction unless forced to by regulation or existential crisis because everyone leaves for something with fewer rabid Nazis.
Ironically, they might love it if left wing networks pushed those metrics even higher by hunting trolls.
Goddammit what an evil company.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:29 AM on August 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
I’m absolutely 100% fine with responding to TERFs with the same ferocity.
I think some of this can be addressed on a structural level. Twitter kind of put itself in a bind of being not-chat and not-blogging. But I see no reason a large number of messages in a short period of time shouldn't trigger the same kinds of embargoes, delays, and reviews that we use for spam control in email.
The “reason” is that the harassment mobs drive the engagement metrics that Twitter uses (among other things) to justify its valuation. They will never do anything that pushes those metrics in the wrong direction unless forced to by regulation or existential crisis because everyone leaves for something with fewer rabid Nazis.
Ironically, they might love it if left wing networks pushed those metrics even higher by hunting trolls.
Goddammit what an evil company.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:29 AM on August 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
I’m absolutely 100% fine with responding to TERFs with the same ferocity.
Yes, there are "callout" mobs against (and by) TERFs, but also against bi women (and to a lesser extent, bi-identified people in general), queer-identified persons, nonbinary persons, and ace-supportive persons. That's not getting into the sheer ugliness that LGBTQ-adjacent fandom can get into.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 7:47 AM on August 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yes, there are "callout" mobs against (and by) TERFs, but also against bi women (and to a lesser extent, bi-identified people in general), queer-identified persons, nonbinary persons, and ace-supportive persons. That's not getting into the sheer ugliness that LGBTQ-adjacent fandom can get into.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 7:47 AM on August 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'm grateful for this, thanks for posting. Something about this article helped me compartmentalize the emotional part -- stupid me, I always think people may be arguing in good faith or misinformed, at least at first. I've got to stop giving people a chance and start putting self-preservation first and foremost.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 8:35 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 8:35 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
From my grandmother I learned, "A drunken man's words are a sober man's thoughts."
From the internet I learned, "An online man's words are an offline man's thoughts."
posted by narancia at 8:50 AM on August 1, 2018 [15 favorites]
From the internet I learned, "An online man's words are an offline man's thoughts."
posted by narancia at 8:50 AM on August 1, 2018 [15 favorites]
Right now the internet makes them anonymous but anything could happen in the future. Someone may invent something that makes it possible to document a person's online activity across all platforms. An online background check which reveals all.
posted by Gwynarra at 9:56 AM on August 1, 2018
posted by Gwynarra at 9:56 AM on August 1, 2018
Personally, I would be terribly afraid if that happened, Gwynarra. I have a very identifiable full name, and I often feel vulnerable. Although it's not hard to find my legal name--it's actually visible from my profile if you have a Metafilter account--I prefer that the eleven years of history under the pseud sciatrix not be the first thing you find if you, a prospective employer, googles me. Among other things, that history includes an autism diagnosis, many years of queer activism, and a number of honest discussion about politics. I'm not precisely ashamed of it, but neither do I think that my whole life self is neutral to all employers. Pseuds give me a level of comfort that allows me to be open and honest.
Anonymity is not something that only benefits the malicious.
posted by sciatrix at 10:07 AM on August 1, 2018 [18 favorites]
Anonymity is not something that only benefits the malicious.
posted by sciatrix at 10:07 AM on August 1, 2018 [18 favorites]
If such a tool is ever invented, a whole lot of people are going to be murdered and harassed. More than they are now, I mean. Shudder.
posted by agregoli at 10:10 AM on August 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by agregoli at 10:10 AM on August 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
If such a tool is ever invented
It's called Profile Matching and there are dozens of companies that specialize in it. The tools aren't for us, though, and they aren't limited to social media usage. They include your clicks, your contacts, the apps you've downloaded, the things you buy, the length of time you take between clicking on an ad and buying the thing, your doctor's name, links to your children and other members of you household, whether you use an adblocker, what browser you use on what devices during what time of day and in what locations, the age of your dog, whether you have a credit card of a specific type and what balance range you carry from month to month, where you went to college, what you watched on Netflix last week, and when you last bought toothpaste.
I know this because I've done it.
posted by Revvy at 10:24 AM on August 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
It's called Profile Matching and there are dozens of companies that specialize in it. The tools aren't for us, though, and they aren't limited to social media usage. They include your clicks, your contacts, the apps you've downloaded, the things you buy, the length of time you take between clicking on an ad and buying the thing, your doctor's name, links to your children and other members of you household, whether you use an adblocker, what browser you use on what devices during what time of day and in what locations, the age of your dog, whether you have a credit card of a specific type and what balance range you carry from month to month, where you went to college, what you watched on Netflix last week, and when you last bought toothpaste.
I know this because I've done it.
posted by Revvy at 10:24 AM on August 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
Twitter and Facebook are weapons. They are used as propaganda weapons, as weapons of abuse, and as literal murder weapons.
Maybe I've missed a news story about someone beating someone else to death with a blade server or something, but I really can't see how they can be used as "literal murder weapons"...
I suggest you go read up on a thing called SWATting.
That is a social media enabled murder weapon.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 11:35 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Maybe I've missed a news story about someone beating someone else to death with a blade server or something, but I really can't see how they can be used as "literal murder weapons"...
I suggest you go read up on a thing called SWATting.
That is a social media enabled murder weapon.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 11:35 AM on August 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I’m not having that many problems with it tbh
Do you trust yourself to a) select the right targets and b) mete out a proportionate response to their attacks?
Do you trust yourself to do this every single time? usually? often?
Do you trust every member of your group to do likewise?
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 11:56 AM on August 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Do you trust yourself to a) select the right targets and b) mete out a proportionate response to their attacks?
Do you trust yourself to do this every single time? usually? often?
Do you trust every member of your group to do likewise?
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 11:56 AM on August 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Revvy, I know. But yeah, not for the average Twitter consumer.
posted by agregoli at 11:58 AM on August 1, 2018
posted by agregoli at 11:58 AM on August 1, 2018
Since I've been on bed rest, I've taken to trolling deplorables online, usually on politician's Facebook comments, by being nice to them, because nothing makes a MAGA hat wearing head explode faster than a snowflake being pleasant to them. I would never, ever do this on Twitter, though.
posted by Ruki at 12:05 PM on August 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 12:05 PM on August 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
If such a tool is ever invented
speaking of such horrors: that terrible peeple thing is apparently relaunching sometime this year.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:31 PM on August 1, 2018
speaking of such horrors: that terrible peeple thing is apparently relaunching sometime this year.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:31 PM on August 1, 2018
Read the book Why Does He Do That? Abusive people don't need a reason to abuse their targets, and there's nothing their targets can do to permanently placate an abuser. And Poffin Boffin is right, the root cause is that the abuser feels entitled to torment the target, and nothing will convince them otherwise.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:19 PM on August 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:19 PM on August 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
speaking of such horrors: that terrible peeple thing is apparently relaunching sometime this year.
I just threw holy water at my screen.
posted by Chitownfats at 8:35 PM on August 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I just threw holy water at my screen.
posted by Chitownfats at 8:35 PM on August 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I suggest you go read up on a thing called SWATting.
That is a social media enabled murder weapon.
SWATting is a telephone enabled crime. Social media doesn't have to enter into it. Sure, it can be done in response to social media stuff, but as a phenomenon it predates it, and does not rely on it at any stage of the process. It is no more using social media as a murder weapon than going to somebody's house and beating them up is.
posted by Dysk at 3:17 AM on August 2, 2018
That is a social media enabled murder weapon.
SWATting is a telephone enabled crime. Social media doesn't have to enter into it. Sure, it can be done in response to social media stuff, but as a phenomenon it predates it, and does not rely on it at any stage of the process. It is no more using social media as a murder weapon than going to somebody's house and beating them up is.
posted by Dysk at 3:17 AM on August 2, 2018
I mean, unless you can summon a SWAT team to somebody's house with a twitter DM rather than a 911 call now. If so, I missed the roll-out of that feature.
posted by Dysk at 3:18 AM on August 2, 2018
posted by Dysk at 3:18 AM on August 2, 2018
Sure, it can be done in response to social media stuff, but as a phenomenon it predates it,
What? This is nonsensical. It’s the ease of access of private information on social media that makes targeted SWATing possible. That they call in the very last step on a telephone (like some sort of Luddite!) doesn’t change the fact that all of the important stuff leading up to the attack is enabled by the internet.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:44 AM on August 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
What? This is nonsensical. It’s the ease of access of private information on social media that makes targeted SWATing possible. That they call in the very last step on a telephone (like some sort of Luddite!) doesn’t change the fact that all of the important stuff leading up to the attack is enabled by the internet.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:44 AM on August 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
It’s the ease of access of private information on social media that makes targeted SWATing possible.
Sure. That or the yellow pages.
It's hardly social media as a murder weapon regardless. It's the police as a murder weapon, with social media at best providing information to allow that targeting.
posted by Dysk at 5:43 AM on August 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sure. That or the yellow pages.
It's hardly social media as a murder weapon regardless. It's the police as a murder weapon, with social media at best providing information to allow that targeting.
posted by Dysk at 5:43 AM on August 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
heh....another thing I've sometimes done is to dig in for a debate with someone. In real life I've been able to hold my own in debates with my father (who plays devils' advocate on a whole lot of issues for fun), and for a while was having theological discussions with a guy who was nearly a Jesuit priest (and that is an intellectual feat of strength, lemme tell you).
I've done that on about four separate occasions now - everything from "prove that ethics are relative, find me an example of racism being good" to "prove that Sandy Hook was a 'false flag' operation". If they shift the goalposts i call it out. If the proof is shaky I point out how. If they insult me I just repeat my questions.
....In all four cases they've just stopped talking to me altogether.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:16 AM on August 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
I've done that on about four separate occasions now - everything from "prove that ethics are relative, find me an example of racism being good" to "prove that Sandy Hook was a 'false flag' operation". If they shift the goalposts i call it out. If the proof is shaky I point out how. If they insult me I just repeat my questions.
....In all four cases they've just stopped talking to me altogether.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:16 AM on August 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
speaking of such horrors: that terrible peeple thing is apparently relaunching sometime this year.
Welp, better change my name from Ned Fnortner, then.
posted by chainsofreedom at 7:04 AM on August 2, 2018
Welp, better change my name from Ned Fnortner, then.
posted by chainsofreedom at 7:04 AM on August 2, 2018
ned fnortner? of the oyster bay fnortners?
posted by poffin boffin at 11:04 AM on August 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:04 AM on August 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sure. That or the yellow pages.
Come on. This didn't happen in 1964, when SWAT teams started. It didn't happen in 1975, when SWAT was a tv show. It started somewhere around 2002 and grew exponentially with the use of social media sites and recruiting and organizing sites.
posted by maxsparber at 11:40 AM on August 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
Come on. This didn't happen in 1964, when SWAT teams started. It didn't happen in 1975, when SWAT was a tv show. It started somewhere around 2002 and grew exponentially with the use of social media sites and recruiting and organizing sites.
posted by maxsparber at 11:40 AM on August 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
No! Of the Tittabawassee Fnortners!
posted by chainsofreedom at 11:46 AM on August 2, 2018
posted by chainsofreedom at 11:46 AM on August 2, 2018
It started somewhere around 2002 and grew exponentially with the use of social media sites and recruiting and organizing sites.
It grew more in line with the increase of SWAT teams in small towns and the militarization of local police forces than with the presence of another form of communication medium.
posted by Revvy at 4:50 PM on August 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
It grew more in line with the increase of SWAT teams in small towns and the militarization of local police forces than with the presence of another form of communication medium.
posted by Revvy at 4:50 PM on August 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Being able to rile up a group of armed white men to terrorize or kill people in their homes has a far longer history in the US than 2002.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:11 PM on August 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:11 PM on August 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
But we were specifically talking about Swatting and its relationship with social media. When you have to strip away the specific details to make a point, you may not be making a point.
posted by maxsparber at 10:11 AM on August 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 10:11 AM on August 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
Swatting, vis a vis Social Media, comes along with doxxing and the targeted harassment pile-on brigading that is a product of modern dickishness. It's just another tool in the arsenal of harassment; that just happens to be lethal.
It's a spectrum of abuse that starts with foul language and threats and ends with actual attacks or attacks by proxy, in the case of swatting.
This didn't happen before social media. "Gamergate", for example, could not have happened in 1965, 1975, or 1985. The overall numbers of awful people in the world has not changed, but now they're all in communication with each other and trivially weaponized. When you have 100,000 angry young men in an echo chamber, it only takes one of them to pop off and do something *really* stupid, particularly when they believe they can get away with it. (and, c'mon, it's the internet. they largely can.)
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 11:54 AM on August 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
It's a spectrum of abuse that starts with foul language and threats and ends with actual attacks or attacks by proxy, in the case of swatting.
This didn't happen before social media. "Gamergate", for example, could not have happened in 1965, 1975, or 1985. The overall numbers of awful people in the world has not changed, but now they're all in communication with each other and trivially weaponized. When you have 100,000 angry young men in an echo chamber, it only takes one of them to pop off and do something *really* stupid, particularly when they believe they can get away with it. (and, c'mon, it's the internet. they largely can.)
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 11:54 AM on August 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
I would point out that the number of awful people has grown, along with the population. The percentage might be similar, though I would debate that, but the overall numbers will have grown. The issues of assholes will be assholes have been with us for a long time. In a real-space grouping of human type folk being an asshole means having to limit yourself relative to your power and the consequences of group opprobrium. Being an anonymous asshole in virtual-space means that you can find your people and do as like minded assholes will do. Like any special interest group communication makes them more powerful. You want to make it harder on them. Stop using monolithic systems like Twitter or Facebook. Set up GNU Social servers, and Mastodon clients. You want better versions donate time or money. Moderate your own communities. Create community based walled gardens. You want a better system, the tools are there. I say this a someone who has never had a Facebook or Twitter account. Facebook just looked like a time suck and Twitter looked like a Lowest Common Denominator trap. Turns out both are both. Of course much of the exposure and convenience of both platforms will not be reproducible but life is full of trade-offs.
Alternately we track each one of these sub-human (based on their behavioral choices only) asses down and throw them in the volcanoes as a sign of our growth as a species. Not a good choice but it has a certain amount of emotional resonance. Trolls of the Internet in Flames. Someday the Flame Wars will end, but the species that remains will not be humans as we know them.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 10:15 PM on August 3, 2018
Alternately we track each one of these sub-human (based on their behavioral choices only) asses down and throw them in the volcanoes as a sign of our growth as a species. Not a good choice but it has a certain amount of emotional resonance. Trolls of the Internet in Flames. Someday the Flame Wars will end, but the species that remains will not be humans as we know them.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 10:15 PM on August 3, 2018
I would point out that the number of awful people has grown, along with the population. The percentage might be similar, though I would debate that, but the overall numbers will have grown.
But the number of not-awful people has also grown, and it is possible for them to stop the awful people. I got alerted to someone threatening to SWAT someone online, and took a little stroll through their Twitter feed and reported various tweets for threatening violence or spreading hate. I am assuming I was not the only one. Within twelve hours their account was suspended.
Even though the raw number of awful people has grown, there are still more of us than of them. We can use that to our advantage. We just have to actually, y'know, do something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:56 AM on August 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
But the number of not-awful people has also grown, and it is possible for them to stop the awful people. I got alerted to someone threatening to SWAT someone online, and took a little stroll through their Twitter feed and reported various tweets for threatening violence or spreading hate. I am assuming I was not the only one. Within twelve hours their account was suspended.
Even though the raw number of awful people has grown, there are still more of us than of them. We can use that to our advantage. We just have to actually, y'know, do something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:56 AM on August 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
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posted by littlerobothead at 6:58 PM on July 31, 2018 [8 favorites]