The Billionaire Yogi and the Prime Minister of India
August 25, 2018 12:50 AM Subscribe
It's a really interesting article about a complicated subject.
It's been a while since I read it, but I am reminded of the character of Guruji in Vikram Chandra's novel Sacred Games (now also a series available on Netflix) -- I wonder if the character was partly based on Ramdev or if the resemblance is more coincidental?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:12 AM on August 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's been a while since I read it, but I am reminded of the character of Guruji in Vikram Chandra's novel Sacred Games (now also a series available on Netflix) -- I wonder if the character was partly based on Ramdev or if the resemblance is more coincidental?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:12 AM on August 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'll stop now becuase I'm not sure what I can really offer except to say that India/Pakistan/Hinduism/Islam/Nationalism/Politics - - - it's so complicated and violent and ugly. I wish there was way for it to be settled peacefully.
I'm reading Shashi Tharoor's Inglorious Empire (and have to keep putting it down after every 3-4 pages due to inchoate rage) but read it. It will help understand how all of this was crafted as administrative policy by the British and we're dealing with it just like every other major unhealed rift in former colonies or possessions (hello palestine/pakistan/papua et cetera) ever since. but no matter, now they're making one for themselves with the EU
posted by infini at 6:38 AM on August 25, 2018 [9 favorites]
I'm reading Shashi Tharoor's Inglorious Empire (and have to keep putting it down after every 3-4 pages due to inchoate rage) but read it. It will help understand how all of this was crafted as administrative policy by the British and we're dealing with it just like every other major unhealed rift in former colonies or possessions (hello palestine/pakistan/papua et cetera) ever since. but no matter, now they're making one for themselves with the EU
posted by infini at 6:38 AM on August 25, 2018 [9 favorites]
It will help understand how all of this was crafted as administrative policy by the British and we're dealing with it just like every other major unhealed rift in former colonies or possessions
Indeed. One of the lasting legacies of Colonial rule was this gift of graft, corruption, and in-fighting. Divide and conquer and all of that.
posted by Fizz at 6:47 AM on August 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
Indeed. One of the lasting legacies of Colonial rule was this gift of graft, corruption, and in-fighting. Divide and conquer and all of that.
posted by Fizz at 6:47 AM on August 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
I feel like when I was taking a religion class I felt like it was a very imbalanced look at the situation and focused on Hindu nationalism as the source of all wrongs while completely ignoring the fact that the two larger Abrahamic religions have very popular strains that literally want to take over the world and destroy all other religions and the people who follow them. (And I will add of course, they have strains who most certainly do NOT support this ideology). I feel like being angry about that in itself is NOT bigotry, and challenging abusive religious ideologies in all religions is in fact needed in the work of uplifting human welfare.
A person can't help what religion they are born into and feel at home in, however a person CAN help what teachings and actions they keep in place. Religious based violence is a huge problem in the world in all religions and finding that balance between tolerance and compassion, vs rightfully calling out human rights abuses written into the worlds religions is very very hard and delicate.
All religions have human rights violations written into them, but not all religions carry the drive to systemically destroy all other faiths in world in order to achieve world domination in the name of their god. Many ancient religions also had problems with this and it's not unique to Christianity and Islam, but they have been the most successful at wiping out all other faiths in regions they took over.
I suspect some, or a lot, of what the west sees as "nationalism" is in fact groups of people trying to work together against colonial powers. Of course the line is blurred into true human rights abuses but some of the accusations of nationalism is this article are things like being suspicious of foreign businesses, which literally was the doorway through which European colonialism most recently took over so... it's a very valid decision to focus on creating wealth from within. Keeping a polytheist religion in tact against the violence and abuses of colonialist and extremely violent monotheists is truly a miraculous feat and I understand why some want strong government support of a polytheist religion when polytheism was literally violently wiped out from vast regions of the world.
posted by xarnop at 7:00 AM on August 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
A person can't help what religion they are born into and feel at home in, however a person CAN help what teachings and actions they keep in place. Religious based violence is a huge problem in the world in all religions and finding that balance between tolerance and compassion, vs rightfully calling out human rights abuses written into the worlds religions is very very hard and delicate.
All religions have human rights violations written into them, but not all religions carry the drive to systemically destroy all other faiths in world in order to achieve world domination in the name of their god. Many ancient religions also had problems with this and it's not unique to Christianity and Islam, but they have been the most successful at wiping out all other faiths in regions they took over.
I suspect some, or a lot, of what the west sees as "nationalism" is in fact groups of people trying to work together against colonial powers. Of course the line is blurred into true human rights abuses but some of the accusations of nationalism is this article are things like being suspicious of foreign businesses, which literally was the doorway through which European colonialism most recently took over so... it's a very valid decision to focus on creating wealth from within. Keeping a polytheist religion in tact against the violence and abuses of colonialist and extremely violent monotheists is truly a miraculous feat and I understand why some want strong government support of a polytheist religion when polytheism was literally violently wiped out from vast regions of the world.
posted by xarnop at 7:00 AM on August 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
Keeping a polytheist religion in tact against the violence and abuses of colonialist and extremely violent monotheists is truly a miraculous feat and I understand why some want strong government support of a polytheist religion when polytheism was literally violently wiped out from vast regions of the world.
I don't doubt that you learned all kinds of fun things taking your religion class and I wish you all the best with your lifelong learning but that is the kind of thing that Hindu nationalists say before they riot and murder innocent people.
Of course it can be very effective to pick a religious or national identity to organise people for collective action. Unfortunately the consequences for people who live in a country that organises in this way who do not align with the religious or national standard is often genocide.
posted by atrazine at 10:01 AM on August 25, 2018 [9 favorites]
I don't doubt that you learned all kinds of fun things taking your religion class and I wish you all the best with your lifelong learning but that is the kind of thing that Hindu nationalists say before they riot and murder innocent people.
Of course it can be very effective to pick a religious or national identity to organise people for collective action. Unfortunately the consequences for people who live in a country that organises in this way who do not align with the religious or national standard is often genocide.
posted by atrazine at 10:01 AM on August 25, 2018 [9 favorites]
Yes religious violence is abhorrent whether it comes from Muslims, Hindus, or Christians, all of whom have blood on their hands.
I am ONE HUNDRED PERCENT in favor of calling out movements that call for religious based violence and toxic teachings that can be found in both Hinduism, Islam, as well as Christianity and the world over. But I also think that what is picked apart and labelled nationalist is quite literally what you might expect from a nation recovering from centuries of colonialization by Christians and Muslims and continued violence that is ongoing from both sides. There is a sizable portion of the Muslim community that very much does support Sharia law, I have polytheistic friends living in nations that I fear for their lives because the persecution is so real, as do many people live in fear of violence based on being a Muslim or any other minority religion. People don't think straight when they are afraid. And the violence from both sides is very real. Having empathy for the reasons people feel so strongly or why they might find appeal movements that speak to some real difficulties they face, but manipulate that for harm, does not mean you condone the use of such movements to commit heinous crimes.
Using any form of attempts to decolonize or develop India's culture and self-sustenance and claiming they are all one and the same with nationalistic violent movements does not represent the complexity of the issue any more than saying that all Muslims who support Sharia law want to see violence and destruction of all non-Muslims which would not be true. There are ideologically horrifying teachings in many religions and we should absolutely stand up to them, but I also do wonder whether western colonialists view any attempt by people in India to create self sustaining movements as innately backwards because they can't imagine any nation would be alright without influence and interference from Eurocentric powers. To put another way, I highly doubt western media would be able to cover this issue very well. I would love to hear more reading material recommendations or life experiences from you to help me understand better as you clearly so condescendingly and sneeringly imply I am unable to understand as well as you. You may very well have a great wealth of experience by which to enlighten me and I am quite sincerely ready to listen if you would like to share and expand with anything other than insults. I also wish you luck with your lifelong learning with the same degree of sincerity you offered it to me, if not more. May we both grow in deeper understanding of differing opinions.
posted by xarnop at 11:26 AM on August 25, 2018
I am ONE HUNDRED PERCENT in favor of calling out movements that call for religious based violence and toxic teachings that can be found in both Hinduism, Islam, as well as Christianity and the world over. But I also think that what is picked apart and labelled nationalist is quite literally what you might expect from a nation recovering from centuries of colonialization by Christians and Muslims and continued violence that is ongoing from both sides. There is a sizable portion of the Muslim community that very much does support Sharia law, I have polytheistic friends living in nations that I fear for their lives because the persecution is so real, as do many people live in fear of violence based on being a Muslim or any other minority religion. People don't think straight when they are afraid. And the violence from both sides is very real. Having empathy for the reasons people feel so strongly or why they might find appeal movements that speak to some real difficulties they face, but manipulate that for harm, does not mean you condone the use of such movements to commit heinous crimes.
Using any form of attempts to decolonize or develop India's culture and self-sustenance and claiming they are all one and the same with nationalistic violent movements does not represent the complexity of the issue any more than saying that all Muslims who support Sharia law want to see violence and destruction of all non-Muslims which would not be true. There are ideologically horrifying teachings in many religions and we should absolutely stand up to them, but I also do wonder whether western colonialists view any attempt by people in India to create self sustaining movements as innately backwards because they can't imagine any nation would be alright without influence and interference from Eurocentric powers. To put another way, I highly doubt western media would be able to cover this issue very well. I would love to hear more reading material recommendations or life experiences from you to help me understand better as you clearly so condescendingly and sneeringly imply I am unable to understand as well as you. You may very well have a great wealth of experience by which to enlighten me and I am quite sincerely ready to listen if you would like to share and expand with anything other than insults. I also wish you luck with your lifelong learning with the same degree of sincerity you offered it to me, if not more. May we both grow in deeper understanding of differing opinions.
posted by xarnop at 11:26 AM on August 25, 2018
Mod note: The article is about a pretty specific thing, Baba Ramdev and Modi. We don't have to solve the whole intersection of nationalism, colonialism, and comparative religion to discuss it. And we definitely don't need to get into some interpersonal side fight over generalizations about religion etc.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:03 PM on August 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:03 PM on August 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
I suppose using this article as a springboard to discuss the fascinating topic of Godmen in India would be tangential, as well, so I'll resist, except to say that the vast numbers of followers such gurus accrue attract politicians like garbage attracts flies. (Not that I'm comparing Godmen to garbage. I like some of them OK. Some politicians enter the field with nothing but positive intentions, too, although the number who stay in the field while maintaining their idealism is depressingly small.)
The NYT compares Ramdev to Trump: a rich and charismatic businessman. (Yes, outside of Metafilter, many consider Trump rich in charisma.) They also speculate that Ramdev might decide to run for PM. If he ends up as India's leader, many will look at Modi as Not Too Bad, Considering, as many of us do today when contemplating the presidency of George W. Bush.
posted by kozad at 12:49 PM on August 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
The NYT compares Ramdev to Trump: a rich and charismatic businessman. (Yes, outside of Metafilter, many consider Trump rich in charisma.) They also speculate that Ramdev might decide to run for PM. If he ends up as India's leader, many will look at Modi as Not Too Bad, Considering, as many of us do today when contemplating the presidency of George W. Bush.
posted by kozad at 12:49 PM on August 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
For Indian left/liberal perspectives on Hindutva and Hinduism, I find the Caravan magazine pretty good. I especially recommend this piece on the origins and intellectual commitments of the RSS, for those who are suspicious of US or European sources on that movement.
posted by Aravis76 at 3:34 PM on August 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Aravis76 at 3:34 PM on August 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
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My family is Hindu and our family (specifically my father) has experience really ugly violence/bloodshed/murder back in the old country. Hindu vs Islam, it goes back a long time and I wish I saw some kind of peaceful reconciliation but I do not, maybe I'm just being too pessimistic. My father is a Modi fan and he's pretty outspoken about how this wave of Nationalism has helped Hindus unify and become more politically strong in protecting Hindu interests/needs. I know a lot this is driven by that ugly violence and death that we've experienced with family members being lost due to this kind of thing.
I don't know what I'm really saying here except that while I do not like how patriotism/nationalism can become political weapons that harm groups of people, I understand why my father is so supportive of it, he's looking at it from a very different world view. We have arguments about how this kind of US vs THEM mentality only further entrenches things and it never really ends, but it's very difficult to argue with him when he shows me photos of cousins we've lost because they happened to be at a rally or went into a neighborhood they shouldn't have and were marked because of their faith.
I'll stop now becuase I'm not sure what I can really offer except to say that India/Pakistan/Hinduism/Islam/Nationalism/Politics - - - it's so complicated and violent and ugly. I wish there was way for it to be settled peacefully.
*sighs*
posted by Fizz at 5:10 AM on August 25, 2018 [21 favorites]