Against The Stream No More
August 27, 2018 7:44 AM Subscribe
Against The Stream, a Buddhist meditation society founded by punk rocker Noah Levine, is shutting down its meditation centers after multiple women came forward with allegations of assault, sexual harassment and sexual misconduct by Levine. An internal investigation concluded that with multiple women, Levine violated the Third Precept of the Teacher’s Code of Ethics, namely, "to avoid creating harm through sexuality." Levine is the author of the best-selling memoir Dharma Punx, as well as the founder of a for-profit drug and alcohol treatment center called Refuge Recovery.
Earlier this year, Buddhist magazine Lion’s Roar reported that Against The Stream had hired an independent investigator to research sexual misconduct allegations against Levine. Levine denied the allegations, saying, "I am certainly not a perfect or enlightened person, but I have found in the dharma a path that has led to an embodied honesty and transparency about any shortcomings I have. It is with that same transparency and honesty that I write this letter to make clear that what I am being accused of is absolutely untrue."
On August 14, Anna Merlan of Jezebel published an investigative piece reporting that ATS teachers had been told there were "between seven and 10" accusers. The content of the accusations is not public, but a former employee of Levine’s Refuge Recovery treatment center went on the record with Jezebel saying she quit because she found the environment "toxic". She said that Levine, who makes more than $200,000 a year from the addiction treatment center, charges the center for first-class airfare and Hamilton tickets for his family.
"He liked to joke about his power and having all these women work for him," she says. "Or he’d be on Bumble [at the office] and talking about women’s appearances, saying things like, 'I hope this girl has never come to one of my classes because I really want to fuck her.' Even though everyone he’s been with recently he’s met in a teaching capacity."
On August 25, ATS announced its centers would shut down.
Noah Levine’s best-selling 2003 memoir Dharma Punx describes his struggles with drug and alcohol addiction and how he combined his love of the punk scene with Buddhist practices to "awaken his natural wisdom and compassion" (text from Amazon summary).
According to Jezebel, a section of ATS's website reads: "Much of traditional Buddhism, in both the northern (Mahayana) and southern (Theravada) is in an awful state of degradation, corruption, and delusion. We now have a chance to leave behind the problematic issues of the sexist, classist and racist politics that have corrupted the wonderful non-oppressive teachings of the Buddha."
Earlier this year, Buddhist magazine Lion’s Roar reported that Against The Stream had hired an independent investigator to research sexual misconduct allegations against Levine. Levine denied the allegations, saying, "I am certainly not a perfect or enlightened person, but I have found in the dharma a path that has led to an embodied honesty and transparency about any shortcomings I have. It is with that same transparency and honesty that I write this letter to make clear that what I am being accused of is absolutely untrue."
On August 14, Anna Merlan of Jezebel published an investigative piece reporting that ATS teachers had been told there were "between seven and 10" accusers. The content of the accusations is not public, but a former employee of Levine’s Refuge Recovery treatment center went on the record with Jezebel saying she quit because she found the environment "toxic". She said that Levine, who makes more than $200,000 a year from the addiction treatment center, charges the center for first-class airfare and Hamilton tickets for his family.
"He liked to joke about his power and having all these women work for him," she says. "Or he’d be on Bumble [at the office] and talking about women’s appearances, saying things like, 'I hope this girl has never come to one of my classes because I really want to fuck her.' Even though everyone he’s been with recently he’s met in a teaching capacity."
On August 25, ATS announced its centers would shut down.
Noah Levine’s best-selling 2003 memoir Dharma Punx describes his struggles with drug and alcohol addiction and how he combined his love of the punk scene with Buddhist practices to "awaken his natural wisdom and compassion" (text from Amazon summary).
According to Jezebel, a section of ATS's website reads: "Much of traditional Buddhism, in both the northern (Mahayana) and southern (Theravada) is in an awful state of degradation, corruption, and delusion. We now have a chance to leave behind the problematic issues of the sexist, classist and racist politics that have corrupted the wonderful non-oppressive teachings of the Buddha."
The closing of the ATS centers is a real tragedy. The one in San Francisco is a vital refuge to hundreds and hundreds of regular attendees, and that center's head teacher Vinny Ferrraro is widely respected and adored. I hope a new location will be found quickly so that sangha can continue its regular schedule of gatherings.
posted by PhineasGage at 8:06 AM on August 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 8:06 AM on August 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
PhineasGage, the Lion's Roar article says Vinny Ferraro is in the process of looking for rental space in SF for his Friday night classes. The SF center will close September 30.
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 8:57 AM on August 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 8:57 AM on August 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
If you google “women’s sangha” the first result is ATS. Which...
posted by schadenfrau at 9:15 AM on August 27, 2018
posted by schadenfrau at 9:15 AM on August 27, 2018
An internal investigation concluded that with multiple women, Levine violated the Third Precept of the Teacher’s Code of Ethics, namely, "to avoid creating harm through sexuality."
Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea, this is a rule for ANY Buddhist(lay or ordained), covered by Right Action.
There's a lot of discussion of examining your teachers critically in the Pali canon. If it helped Buddhism historically avoid these pitfalls, I haven't noticed it.
"Much of traditional Buddhism, in both the northern (Mahayana) and southern (Theravada) is in an awful state of degradation, corruption, and delusion. We now have a chance to leave behind the problematic issues of the sexist, classist and racist politics that have corrupted the wonderful non-oppressive teachings of the Buddha."
This is really racist and kinda bullshit also.
That said, Buddhism is still in the infancy of grappling with the idea of maybe being non shitty about gender.
posted by selfnoise at 9:21 AM on August 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea, this is a rule for ANY Buddhist(lay or ordained), covered by Right Action.
There's a lot of discussion of examining your teachers critically in the Pali canon. If it helped Buddhism historically avoid these pitfalls, I haven't noticed it.
"Much of traditional Buddhism, in both the northern (Mahayana) and southern (Theravada) is in an awful state of degradation, corruption, and delusion. We now have a chance to leave behind the problematic issues of the sexist, classist and racist politics that have corrupted the wonderful non-oppressive teachings of the Buddha."
This is really racist and kinda bullshit also.
That said, Buddhism is still in the infancy of grappling with the idea of maybe being non shitty about gender.
posted by selfnoise at 9:21 AM on August 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
If you meet anybody who tells you they have a "punk" version of a common thing you should keep one hand on your wallet.
posted by East14thTaco at 9:47 AM on August 27, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by East14thTaco at 9:47 AM on August 27, 2018 [29 favorites]
I am actually surprised to hear of the critique mentioned by selfnoise. In the mahayana generally, and specifically in the Tibetan traditions, there is endemic sexual abuse and misconduct alongside an emphasis on onesided reverence for the teacher.
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 9:48 AM on August 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 9:48 AM on August 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
The story I was told about Siddhartha was that he was madly in love with his wife, but when his son was born he realized that sort of love would tie him down and prevent him from pursuing enlightenment. So he abandoned them. No word (and I asked) on what happened to the wife and son.
This doesn’t, to me, seem to be a new thing, or something that is particularly Buddhist. Pursuits beyond sustenance and the work it takes to survive have always been a privilege. Who gets those privileges, and who has to do the work to maintain the rest of society (without which those privileges would not exist), is always going to be the question that needs to be answered.
I’ve asked monks or monk-equivalents in two different religious traditions how they square themselves with this (one of whom was buddies with Thich Nhat Hanh, and was nominated for a Nobel), and both times they didn’t seem to understand the question. They were both men.
(I asked a woman, too! She was an initiate and gave me the stock answer of everyone splitting the labor. That works in the convent, yeah, but like...the rest of the world?)
Anyway. There seems to be this tension, always, between wanting to believe that some traditions can fix what’s wrong with us and honestly dealing with observable reality. I think the power dynamics of human social organization make this pretty much impossible at any kind of scale. Maybe you get lucky with a small community, but...yeah. Everyone has limited personal resources. If you’re getting to pursue enlightenment or its equivalent, it means you’re not doing other things, and depending on your life and place in the world, that probably means the work you’re not doing falls to other people. And more often than not, people like to justify this inequality by rationalizing it along arbitrary boundaries — gender, race, class.
I’d love to be wrong. I’d also love to find a genuine women’s sangha, because I’m done dealing with shit from men, and more importantly, I feel very much that I no longer have the spoons to constantly be on my guard around men, which is what you have to do no matter what.
And I can 100% see and be sympathetic to POC saying the exact same thing about white people. And on and on.
So I don’t know where that leaves me, or anyone else, really.
This was more of a downer comment than I thought it would be.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:50 AM on August 27, 2018 [34 favorites]
This doesn’t, to me, seem to be a new thing, or something that is particularly Buddhist. Pursuits beyond sustenance and the work it takes to survive have always been a privilege. Who gets those privileges, and who has to do the work to maintain the rest of society (without which those privileges would not exist), is always going to be the question that needs to be answered.
I’ve asked monks or monk-equivalents in two different religious traditions how they square themselves with this (one of whom was buddies with Thich Nhat Hanh, and was nominated for a Nobel), and both times they didn’t seem to understand the question. They were both men.
(I asked a woman, too! She was an initiate and gave me the stock answer of everyone splitting the labor. That works in the convent, yeah, but like...the rest of the world?)
Anyway. There seems to be this tension, always, between wanting to believe that some traditions can fix what’s wrong with us and honestly dealing with observable reality. I think the power dynamics of human social organization make this pretty much impossible at any kind of scale. Maybe you get lucky with a small community, but...yeah. Everyone has limited personal resources. If you’re getting to pursue enlightenment or its equivalent, it means you’re not doing other things, and depending on your life and place in the world, that probably means the work you’re not doing falls to other people. And more often than not, people like to justify this inequality by rationalizing it along arbitrary boundaries — gender, race, class.
I’d love to be wrong. I’d also love to find a genuine women’s sangha, because I’m done dealing with shit from men, and more importantly, I feel very much that I no longer have the spoons to constantly be on my guard around men, which is what you have to do no matter what.
And I can 100% see and be sympathetic to POC saying the exact same thing about white people. And on and on.
So I don’t know where that leaves me, or anyone else, really.
This was more of a downer comment than I thought it would be.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:50 AM on August 27, 2018 [34 favorites]
And like...I know all about St Theresa and contemplative sewing etc, and general mindfulness practice. And I know there are people who practice while raising children, but it seems...again, not equal, and again, kids need proper socialization for healthy development. I suppose that’s not impossible to do while pursuing enlightenment, but for most people sounds like insanity.
And I know I’m not going to sum it all up in a comment on the internet, so...yeah. There is this tension. I’ve never really seen it resolved in a way that didn’t screw someone else over.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:58 AM on August 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
And I know I’m not going to sum it all up in a comment on the internet, so...yeah. There is this tension. I’ve never really seen it resolved in a way that didn’t screw someone else over.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:58 AM on August 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
In Northern California, the Saranaloka nuns have a vihara in the Sierra foothills and often teach around the Bay Area, including at ATS.
posted by PhineasGage at 10:07 AM on August 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 10:07 AM on August 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
The story I was told about Siddhartha was that he was madly in love with his wife, but when his son was born he realized that sort of love would tie him down and prevent him from pursuing enlightenment. So he abandoned them. No word (and I asked) on what happened to the wife and son.
His wife was Yasodharā and his son was Rāhula. I certainly agree that there is sexism in Buddhism, but there is certainly no absence of stories about the Buddha's wife and child.
posted by Quonab at 11:14 AM on August 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
His wife was Yasodharā and his son was Rāhula. I certainly agree that there is sexism in Buddhism, but there is certainly no absence of stories about the Buddha's wife and child.
posted by Quonab at 11:14 AM on August 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
...there is certainly no absence of stories about the Buddha's wife and child.
Can we please not do this thing where a woman's lived experience is thrown a Wikipedia bone and then that bone is miraculously gifted flesh and blood?
I had never heard of Yasodhara or Rahula, and I have studied Buddhism. If you ask anyone – even in the Western world – whether they've heard of Buddha, and then if they've heard of Yasodhara or Rahula, I would hope that your good faith and compassion are healthy enough to recognize that there is a vast and gaping gulf.
The reason for that gulf is sexism.
Name Saint Augustine's wife-slash-concubine and son without doing a web search.
posted by fraula at 11:37 AM on August 27, 2018 [24 favorites]
Can we please not do this thing where a woman's lived experience is thrown a Wikipedia bone and then that bone is miraculously gifted flesh and blood?
I had never heard of Yasodhara or Rahula, and I have studied Buddhism. If you ask anyone – even in the Western world – whether they've heard of Buddha, and then if they've heard of Yasodhara or Rahula, I would hope that your good faith and compassion are healthy enough to recognize that there is a vast and gaping gulf.
The reason for that gulf is sexism.
Name Saint Augustine's wife-slash-concubine and son without doing a web search.
posted by fraula at 11:37 AM on August 27, 2018 [24 favorites]
I am a Buddhist dharma teacher in one of the sects that uses the Lotus Sutra as its main text. In the Lotus Sutra, there are stories both about Yasodhara and Rahula. I have taught about them at my dharma center. I assure you, I am not just 'throwing a Wikipedia bone'. I am talking about my religion and watching someone say incorrect things about it because they asked somebody about it is very frustrating.
posted by Quonab at 12:06 PM on August 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by Quonab at 12:06 PM on August 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
It’s also frustrating to watch you mischaracterize what I said. I didn’t ask “somebody,” I asked monks. If your position is that sexism is not an issue in Buddhism — somehow, miraculously, alone amongst all the institutions of the world — the burden of proof is going to be on you.
So let me ask you this: when you teach about Yasodhara, or when you were taught about her, is the fact that her husband left her and their child discussed as important? Like do you talk about and consider what it would be like to pursue a path under those circumstances? How that might be different for her than it was for her husband? Do you consider what it would be like for Rahula to grow up under those circumstances? how it might affect his development, and the paths that were open to him later in life?
I am genuinely asking. Because I have never, ever come across this. So while I don't preclude the possibility that it exists, I will say that it is not easy to find--and that generally means not enough people consider it important.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:34 PM on August 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
So let me ask you this: when you teach about Yasodhara, or when you were taught about her, is the fact that her husband left her and their child discussed as important? Like do you talk about and consider what it would be like to pursue a path under those circumstances? How that might be different for her than it was for her husband? Do you consider what it would be like for Rahula to grow up under those circumstances? how it might affect his development, and the paths that were open to him later in life?
I am genuinely asking. Because I have never, ever come across this. So while I don't preclude the possibility that it exists, I will say that it is not easy to find--and that generally means not enough people consider it important.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:34 PM on August 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
Or, for that matter, how the fact that they were actual royalty might have mattered a bit.
There is a disconnect from real life -- or a gulf, as fraula put it -- that I think becomes more apparent as you move down the privilege ladder.
And again, I'm really asking. If there are traditions that deal with this directly, I want to know about them. I'm thirsty AF for that, tbh.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:41 PM on August 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
There is a disconnect from real life -- or a gulf, as fraula put it -- that I think becomes more apparent as you move down the privilege ladder.
And again, I'm really asking. If there are traditions that deal with this directly, I want to know about them. I'm thirsty AF for that, tbh.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:41 PM on August 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
schadenfrau, thanks for sharing your thoughts. As a girl, I had a similar experience as a kid in Methodist Sunday School when we read a passage about Jesus’s disciples leaving their families behind to follow Jesus. I was about 10 or 11; I asked my Sunday School teacher, “What happened to their wives and children? They just abandoned them?” She laughed as if I had said something silly, and didn’t answer. My teen years consisted of me (a very earnestly practicing Christian) asking more of these types of questions to the religious leaders around me — why does Timothy say women can’t be leaders? How can the Bible be God’s authority when we are picking and choosing the words to follow? — and performing mental gymnastics in order to accept the circular explanations I got.
As an adult, I left Christianity and became an enthusiastic member of liberal religious groups (UU, American Buddhism, etc.) that shouted from the rooftops their commitment to ending oppression and all of the ‘isms. Yes, women were equal partners and participants! However in each group I found disappointments, whether it was “broken stair” leaders and members who preyed on young women in the group, then unhealthy relationship some white American Buddhist groups have to Asian culture (a weird combination of fetishizing and patronizing), or the more subtle gaslighting/inscrutable hierarchies a la the Tyranny of Structurelessness (thanks MetaFilter for introducing that to me!).
So at the moment I don’t have a spiritual community and I really crave one — especially given the U.S. political situation. In order to have a spiritual community I need to feel safe being vulnerable… and I honestly haven’t found a safe place. Right now I’m choosing to invest that spiritual energy into solo activities and reading (although I had been attending ATS infrequently... womp womp).
One positive takeaway from the ATS news is that the organization DID take action. It DID hold itself and its leaders to a certain standard. That’s pretty huge, honestly. Yes, they’d already lost donations so it was also a financial decision, but they could have dug in their heels and defended him, and they would probably have been able to hobble along (if you look at Levine’s Instagram there are no shortage of comments defending the guy).
schadenfrau, I share your conundrum and I hope you continue to keep searching. I will too.
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 12:55 PM on August 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
As an adult, I left Christianity and became an enthusiastic member of liberal religious groups (UU, American Buddhism, etc.) that shouted from the rooftops their commitment to ending oppression and all of the ‘isms. Yes, women were equal partners and participants! However in each group I found disappointments, whether it was “broken stair” leaders and members who preyed on young women in the group, then unhealthy relationship some white American Buddhist groups have to Asian culture (a weird combination of fetishizing and patronizing), or the more subtle gaslighting/inscrutable hierarchies a la the Tyranny of Structurelessness (thanks MetaFilter for introducing that to me!).
So at the moment I don’t have a spiritual community and I really crave one — especially given the U.S. political situation. In order to have a spiritual community I need to feel safe being vulnerable… and I honestly haven’t found a safe place. Right now I’m choosing to invest that spiritual energy into solo activities and reading (although I had been attending ATS infrequently... womp womp).
One positive takeaway from the ATS news is that the organization DID take action. It DID hold itself and its leaders to a certain standard. That’s pretty huge, honestly. Yes, they’d already lost donations so it was also a financial decision, but they could have dug in their heels and defended him, and they would probably have been able to hobble along (if you look at Levine’s Instagram there are no shortage of comments defending the guy).
schadenfrau, I share your conundrum and I hope you continue to keep searching. I will too.
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 12:55 PM on August 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
There is a long history of religious groups centered on a man that turn into sexually exploitive environments. I think part of the problem is the man, being a man and all that comes with that. The other part of the problem is the adoration bestowed on this man by the people in the group. In many cases this man takes advantage of the adoration to his advantage. The guru - chela (student) relationship is rife with potential for exploitation. This is not to say that any group with a man in charge is a danger, but watch out. This danger is amplified when the man is the gateway, sometimes only gateway, to enlightenment / salvation whatever. The Catholic church is the classic example of this. There was a large study back in the 80's about cults that divided cults into two basic kinds - personality or technique. Personality centered on a single individual who held the keys to the coming whatever. Technique was a group that had a special technique that was taught, pretty much by anyone in the group, there being no personal center to the group. Personality groups almost always degenerated into exploitation. Technique groups usually just carried on teaching the technique. I think the central issue is one of power - secular, religious, whatever. Give someone power and they will probably grow to take advantage of it and the people over whom they are in control. I've been studying various eastern and western religious groups etc. for years and over all that time I have avoided groups of any kind. I realize that the group environment can be of great value, but the history of groups is mainly a history of exploitation and abuse.
posted by njohnson23 at 1:00 PM on August 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 1:00 PM on August 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
In my sect, the Lotus Sutra is generally looked at as metaphorical. In the sutra, neither Yasodhara or the Buddha are really realized personalities. The main event in Yasodhara's story is that the Buddha predicts that she will become a buddha ('becoming a buddha' is a level of attainment, 'The Buddha' is a title for Siddhartha), showing that her potential and eventual attainment will be the same as that of the Buddha.
At my center, we don't talk about the life of Yasodhara, we talk about the lives of the members of the sangha, who are mostly women. There is not really a need to talk about historical problems when there are problems right here and now.
And for the record, what I said about sexism was "I certainly agree that there is sexism in Buddhism."
posted by Quonab at 1:02 PM on August 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
At my center, we don't talk about the life of Yasodhara, we talk about the lives of the members of the sangha, who are mostly women. There is not really a need to talk about historical problems when there are problems right here and now.
And for the record, what I said about sexism was "I certainly agree that there is sexism in Buddhism."
posted by Quonab at 1:02 PM on August 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I’m so sad about this. I was a huge fan of the podcast style broadcasts of their darmha talks. Especially Noah’s. I learned so much from him and his organization. But I guess no group of people is immune from shit heads with power.
posted by bleep at 1:19 PM on August 27, 2018
posted by bleep at 1:19 PM on August 27, 2018
There is indisputably sexism in Buddhism, and unwise power dynamics, and every variety of imperfection and injustice that human societies currently suffer from. When I first started studying Buddhism - mostly by reading the original suttas - I was shocked and displeased at the same thought as others have expressed above: "What, he just up and left his family? How is that an expression of Right Action? How is that an expression of metta?"
But less attention to a sage's family than to the sage himself is not a marker of sexism, nor even of injustice. It was Gotama who eventually achieved - and taught - the liberating insights that are still being shared and studied 2,500 years later.
To echo Quonab, there are vital battles against sexism to be fought in the realms of Buddhist communities right here and now: many Buddhist orders' refusal to ordain, empower, and treat bhikkhunis as equal monastics; the subtle as well as overt sexist behavior of even some of the most lauded teachers; the examples of outright sexual abuse, and much more.
But less attention to the Buddha's *son* in the original suttas by definition isn't sexism. And criticizing the fact that there is less attention to any of his family, or followers, is an unreasonable and undermining demand, since it was the Buddha's wise teachings, not any of theirs, that so many of us strive to put into practice each day.
posted by PhineasGage at 1:26 PM on August 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
But less attention to a sage's family than to the sage himself is not a marker of sexism, nor even of injustice. It was Gotama who eventually achieved - and taught - the liberating insights that are still being shared and studied 2,500 years later.
To echo Quonab, there are vital battles against sexism to be fought in the realms of Buddhist communities right here and now: many Buddhist orders' refusal to ordain, empower, and treat bhikkhunis as equal monastics; the subtle as well as overt sexist behavior of even some of the most lauded teachers; the examples of outright sexual abuse, and much more.
But less attention to the Buddha's *son* in the original suttas by definition isn't sexism. And criticizing the fact that there is less attention to any of his family, or followers, is an unreasonable and undermining demand, since it was the Buddha's wise teachings, not any of theirs, that so many of us strive to put into practice each day.
posted by PhineasGage at 1:26 PM on August 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
And criticizing the fact that there is less attention to any of his family, or followers, is an unreasonable and undermining demand, since it was the Buddha's wise teachings, not any of theirs, that so many of us strive to put into practice each day.
I think the attention people demand wouldn’t be on wife and son, but on the actions of the (allegedly) wise Buddha that maybe stand in contrast with his (alleged) wisdom and compassion.
posted by The Toad at 1:50 PM on August 27, 2018 [11 favorites]
I think the attention people demand wouldn’t be on wife and son, but on the actions of the (allegedly) wise Buddha that maybe stand in contrast with his (alleged) wisdom and compassion.
posted by The Toad at 1:50 PM on August 27, 2018 [11 favorites]
Sixteen years of sitting under my belt, and one of the very first things I learned was to question my teachers, in no uncertain terms: "If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him." It sounds like a few folks who call themselves Buddhists might want to contemplate the meaning and implications of that thought for a little while.
(I have to confess that I never, ever trusted this guy, both because I came up in punk rock and because I eventually sought shelter in the Three Treasures.)
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:25 PM on August 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
(I have to confess that I never, ever trusted this guy, both because I came up in punk rock and because I eventually sought shelter in the Three Treasures.)
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:25 PM on August 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
I think it's a very important and relevant question how a person can teach the highest and best teachings about compassion but abandon their family. To me this challenges the idea presented by many that the Buddha is a superior that we must emulate and that if we disagree we must be inferior and less capable of understanding than he. (Something that many members of the buddhist University Naropa frequently stated when I was there.)
It's certainly possible that none of us are capable of understanding compassion or the divine or the universe as well as Buddha and must do what he says in hope eventually we will we become wise enough to understand. Or of course, he could be imperfect and human and capable of having ideas that should be challenged and changed.
That's a possibility.
posted by xarnop at 4:43 PM on August 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
It's certainly possible that none of us are capable of understanding compassion or the divine or the universe as well as Buddha and must do what he says in hope eventually we will we become wise enough to understand. Or of course, he could be imperfect and human and capable of having ideas that should be challenged and changed.
That's a possibility.
posted by xarnop at 4:43 PM on August 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
I feel like xarnop's comment is something that some later Mahayana texts try to address, like the Vimalakirti Sutra, where it's expressed that a lay practitioner can still achieve enlightenment. It is harder because of the demands of a secular life and it is harder to live an enlightened life, again because of the pulls of a secular life. A lot of the teachings that I've heard (because I study with a group that has a much larger lay community than monastic) focus on how to live a true and wholehearted life within everything going on, not apart from it, including how to address social issues that American Buddhism has sometimes stayed away from.
Also, with texts, it's important to be aware of the audience that is receiving the teachings before drawing broad conclusions about how to work with those teachings. Many texts are often addressing monastics (for example, Shantideva and a lot of Dogen's writings). The texts are still relevant but need to be understood in that light and adapted to the life of lay practice.
posted by kokaku at 5:28 PM on August 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Also, with texts, it's important to be aware of the audience that is receiving the teachings before drawing broad conclusions about how to work with those teachings. Many texts are often addressing monastics (for example, Shantideva and a lot of Dogen's writings). The texts are still relevant but need to be understood in that light and adapted to the life of lay practice.
posted by kokaku at 5:28 PM on August 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I taught Buddhism last year - just for an hour once a week, helping out the RE teacher who needed Friday afternoon off. I was teaching British 16 year olds. We had a lot of lively discussion of 'what happened to Buddha's wife and child', and it was a topic that my students came back to quite a lot during the year, when we were discussing ethics for example or monasticism. I am not a Buddhist FWIW.
posted by communicator at 6:44 PM on August 27, 2018
posted by communicator at 6:44 PM on August 27, 2018
Did you explain that the person who became the Buddha didn't reach enlightenment until six years after he left his wife? And that he made several other notable mistakes after he left her?
posted by Quonab at 7:11 PM on August 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Quonab at 7:11 PM on August 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
If you meet anybody who tells you they have a "punk" version of a common thing you should keep one hand on your wallet.
That’s what the wallet chain is for.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 7:02 AM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
That’s what the wallet chain is for.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 7:02 AM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
i am interested to see how this plays out especially with the whole Shambhala debacle / Sunlight Foundation stuff unfolding as well. i hope the sanghas previously affiliated with ATS are able to go forward wholesomely and keep serving their people. hope the women harmed by noah get what they need. hope noah's enablers get a harsh dose of accountability and they act better in the future.
it cracked me up to hear that noah had already tried to sneak back into teaching while this investigation was unfolding. these outcomes so far are so much less fucked than what i thought would happen that i am cautiously optimistic. but what's done can't be undone.
also was re shakyamuni abandoning his family - man we could do a whole thread about that. he sure did abandon his family. home leaving sure is home leaving. it sure does matter that the leavers of home and the left at home tended to split along particular gender lines. it really does. chan monasteries kept slaves, the zens in japan kept the family name rolls that enforced caste system etc. no place is safe from harm. but what will you do when you encounter it?
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 10:24 AM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
it cracked me up to hear that noah had already tried to sneak back into teaching while this investigation was unfolding. these outcomes so far are so much less fucked than what i thought would happen that i am cautiously optimistic. but what's done can't be undone.
also was re shakyamuni abandoning his family - man we could do a whole thread about that. he sure did abandon his family. home leaving sure is home leaving. it sure does matter that the leavers of home and the left at home tended to split along particular gender lines. it really does. chan monasteries kept slaves, the zens in japan kept the family name rolls that enforced caste system etc. no place is safe from harm. but what will you do when you encounter it?
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 10:24 AM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Against my better judgement I watched Levine's livestream last night, as he'd said he would address the allegations and I was holding out a naive hope that he would apologize to the women who came forward.
I left with a worse opinion of him. I won't go into detail (you can find the livestream online) but he basically admitted no wrongdoing except being "impulsive" and "not careful enough" and "politics" and being misunderstood because he was an "alpha" in relationships. Yup, he literally said that he's an "alpha" and all of this is just a big misunderstanding. Killing the Buddha indeed.
He said he's now having money troubles, but luckily he pointed his Instagram followers to his newly-updated Dharma Punx "merch" website, where later this week you'll be able to order a statue of Buddha wearing a Mohawk. Judging from the supportive comments he's receiving on social media, I think he'll find lots of buyers.
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 11:33 AM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
I left with a worse opinion of him. I won't go into detail (you can find the livestream online) but he basically admitted no wrongdoing except being "impulsive" and "not careful enough" and "politics" and being misunderstood because he was an "alpha" in relationships. Yup, he literally said that he's an "alpha" and all of this is just a big misunderstanding. Killing the Buddha indeed.
He said he's now having money troubles, but luckily he pointed his Instagram followers to his newly-updated Dharma Punx "merch" website, where later this week you'll be able to order a statue of Buddha wearing a Mohawk. Judging from the supportive comments he's receiving on social media, I think he'll find lots of buyers.
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 11:33 AM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
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posted by tobascodagama at 8:03 AM on August 27, 2018 [5 favorites]