On Electric Scooter Shares
August 30, 2018 6:44 PM Subscribe
Relevant, from a coworker: ratings for each company from San Francisco’s scooter share pilot.
posted by migurski at 7:06 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by migurski at 7:06 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I’m all in favor of scooters. You could solve the parking problem by taking out one car space per block and using it for scooters- it would only cost a little paint. Eliminating more on street parking would allow for large separated bike and scooter lanes.
Use the public right-of-way for moving people, not storing two-ton boxes on wheels used to move 200 pounds of person.
posted by rockindata at 7:08 PM on August 30, 2018 [24 favorites]
Use the public right-of-way for moving people, not storing two-ton boxes on wheels used to move 200 pounds of person.
posted by rockindata at 7:08 PM on August 30, 2018 [24 favorites]
Maybe this is a silly question, but -- why a scooter instead of a dockless bike? Spin has those too, in DC -- I used one, it was great, got me right where I needed to go in a way that used no electricity whatsoever and took advantage of already-existing infrastructure (bike lanes where there were bike lanes, and general being-in-a-vehicle-cars-already-expect-to-see-on-the-street-with-them where there weren't.
posted by escabeche at 7:19 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by escabeche at 7:19 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
whm, the article also notes:
Researchers have found that mobility is a critical rung in the ladder out of poverty.
That may explain why electric scooters have a better reputation with people of lower incomes, according to Populus
posted by aniola at 7:20 PM on August 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Researchers have found that mobility is a critical rung in the ladder out of poverty.
That may explain why electric scooters have a better reputation with people of lower incomes, according to Populus
posted by aniola at 7:20 PM on August 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
"The hysteria over electric scooters is not funny. The roads are full of 4000-pound vehicles that actually hurt and kill people. Cities should quickly make some basic rules about the scooters and focus on the real problem." –@pflax1
posted by entropicamericana at 7:21 PM on August 30, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 7:21 PM on August 30, 2018 [22 favorites]
I'm in favor of scooters, with caveats.
Caveat 1: HAVE DOCKS. Don't leave them scattered all over the sidewalk for people to trip over, for carts and strollers to run over, all of that stuff. DOCKS.
Caveat 2: If you're riding an electric scooter DO NOT RIDE IT ON THE SIDEWALK. SIDEWALKS ARE FOR WALKING. TAKE THAT SHIT INTO THE BIKE LANE.
The advantage of an electric scooter over, say, a dockless (or docked) bike is that not everyone can ride a bike easily. Scooters are a bit more accessible in that regard.
posted by SansPoint at 7:22 PM on August 30, 2018 [31 favorites]
Caveat 1: HAVE DOCKS. Don't leave them scattered all over the sidewalk for people to trip over, for carts and strollers to run over, all of that stuff. DOCKS.
Caveat 2: If you're riding an electric scooter DO NOT RIDE IT ON THE SIDEWALK. SIDEWALKS ARE FOR WALKING. TAKE THAT SHIT INTO THE BIKE LANE.
The advantage of an electric scooter over, say, a dockless (or docked) bike is that not everyone can ride a bike easily. Scooters are a bit more accessible in that regard.
posted by SansPoint at 7:22 PM on August 30, 2018 [31 favorites]
Wired: E-Scooter Fans Are Surprisingly Diverse
Among income brackets, those making between $25,000 to $50,000 a year are the most into the idea, and those making above $200,000 are the least. (One theory, from UC Berkeley transportation researcher Susan Shaheen: lower income urbanites who can’t afford cars appreciate the mobility of scooters, and wealthier residents who do drive find them a street-clogging nuisance.)[...]
And, more women reported a positive perception of scooters (72 percent) than men (67 percent). Populus’s data also indicates that women might be adopting e-scooters more quickly than they have bike-sharing.posted by chrchr at 7:22 PM on August 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Hi! I'm your friendly cyclist!
We do not want scooters in the bike lane. A lane we've fought long and hard for, including world-wide, decade-spanning, monthly protests where many of the participants are ticketed, and even arrested.
Thanks!
If you want to replace all cars with scooters, maybe we can talk. Maybe.
posted by alex_skazat at 7:28 PM on August 30, 2018 [29 favorites]
We do not want scooters in the bike lane. A lane we've fought long and hard for, including world-wide, decade-spanning, monthly protests where many of the participants are ticketed, and even arrested.
Thanks!
If you want to replace all cars with scooters, maybe we can talk. Maybe.
posted by alex_skazat at 7:28 PM on August 30, 2018 [29 favorites]
Escabeche: The bike share bikes I've used are slow, indestructable beasts compared to a commuter bike. That can make them unrewarding to ride. As with cars, electric scooters don't require exercise.
posted by aniola at 7:29 PM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by aniola at 7:29 PM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Why don't cyclists want e-scooters in the bike lane?
posted by chrchr at 7:29 PM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 7:29 PM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
entropicamericana: "The hysteria over electric scooters is not funny. The roads are full of 4000-pound vehicles that actually hurt and kill people. Cities should quickly make some basic rules about the scooters and focus on the real problem." –@pflax1
That would have some fragment of a point if cars drove on sidewalks. Since they don't, the people who use sidewalks have every reason to be 'hysterical' at motorized vehicles moving at road speeds in their space. And I say this from ground zero of scooterland, where I get to sit on my porch and observe people ignoring the very generous bike lanes so they can blast down the sidewalks.
Like oh so many things touched by techbros, it's a good idea being ruined by assholes, both in terms of the companies and the riders.
posted by tavella at 7:29 PM on August 30, 2018 [22 favorites]
That would have some fragment of a point if cars drove on sidewalks. Since they don't, the people who use sidewalks have every reason to be 'hysterical' at motorized vehicles moving at road speeds in their space. And I say this from ground zero of scooterland, where I get to sit on my porch and observe people ignoring the very generous bike lanes so they can blast down the sidewalks.
Like oh so many things touched by techbros, it's a good idea being ruined by assholes, both in terms of the companies and the riders.
posted by tavella at 7:29 PM on August 30, 2018 [22 favorites]
Plus they're so nimble even I've considered riding them. But as someone who already walks and bikes and has streamlined both, they don't really fill any niche for me that's not already covered.
My favorite part: I think that when you compare the mass of pretty much any other motorized vehicle, these have got to be the most efficient of the lot. They're just these tiny little scraps of metal and tire. They don't weigh more than a bicycle.
posted by aniola at 7:33 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
My favorite part: I think that when you compare the mass of pretty much any other motorized vehicle, these have got to be the most efficient of the lot. They're just these tiny little scraps of metal and tire. They don't weigh more than a bicycle.
posted by aniola at 7:33 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
*(by "considered riding them," I mean electric scooters. Not these gig economy scooters. I have a bone to pick with the gig economy.)
posted by aniola at 7:34 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by aniola at 7:34 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I am a cyclist and I really want scooters in the bike lane. Higher demand for bike lanes leads to more bike lanes. I didn’t participate in critical mass to get in a fight with a smaller-wheeled bike-like thing that’s also popular.
posted by migurski at 7:35 PM on August 30, 2018 [107 favorites]
posted by migurski at 7:35 PM on August 30, 2018 [107 favorites]
aniola, I appreciate what you're saying, but the ones I've seen thrown in garbage cans, into lakes, and into oceans, have not been in higher income neighborhoods. It might be living in San Francisco, where the density is sufficient to render them both totally unnecessary, and totally obnoxious, maybe there are places where they genuinely improve mobility. There are definitely some where they provide little to no benefits. And honestly, despite what populus says, I have yet to see them widely adopted by people are aren't wealthy enough to pay 3$ to skip walking a few blocks.
I'm also deeply uncomfortable with the fact that an acquaintance just starting working for one of these companies, and his every talking point in our conversation was in this article. Maybe I'm paranoid, but this article struck me as so utterly lacking in anything critical that I don't know why he doesn't just write ad copy. Also that this article appeared the day they were thrown back onto the SF streets again.
I'm sure they have a place- but at the moment, there are cars. I wish those lanes were limited to public transit, deliveries, and transportation of those without any other options, but they're not. In between, scooters completely mess up the flow of already congested bike lanes (which are already an extant, equally rentable, form of transportation, as well-distributed as scooters, and at about the same price, but often with actual docks and infrastructure). I simply can't figure out what (if any) problem they solve, or purpose they fill, other than providing people like Travis Vanderzanden with a paycheck.
As an aside if you can read an interview with Travis without puking in your mouth a little, you're a better person than I will ever be.
posted by whm at 7:37 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm also deeply uncomfortable with the fact that an acquaintance just starting working for one of these companies, and his every talking point in our conversation was in this article. Maybe I'm paranoid, but this article struck me as so utterly lacking in anything critical that I don't know why he doesn't just write ad copy. Also that this article appeared the day they were thrown back onto the SF streets again.
I'm sure they have a place- but at the moment, there are cars. I wish those lanes were limited to public transit, deliveries, and transportation of those without any other options, but they're not. In between, scooters completely mess up the flow of already congested bike lanes (which are already an extant, equally rentable, form of transportation, as well-distributed as scooters, and at about the same price, but often with actual docks and infrastructure). I simply can't figure out what (if any) problem they solve, or purpose they fill, other than providing people like Travis Vanderzanden with a paycheck.
As an aside if you can read an interview with Travis without puking in your mouth a little, you're a better person than I will ever be.
posted by whm at 7:37 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
simply can't figure out what (if any) problem they solve, or purpose they fillOh, well, they permit people to travel short distances without requiring the physical exertion of bicycling, so that you can use them on a warm day without breaking a sweat, or while in less than great cycling shape, or while wearing clothes that make physical activity uncomfortable or awkward.
posted by chrchr at 7:44 PM on August 30, 2018 [45 favorites]
It totally glossed over things. Like speed! (A couple whizzed by me today on a multi-use path, and it was dangerous and rude! Just like when people do that on bikes! Or in cars!) And the gig economy!
That said, I loved the ending, with the reminder that electric scooters are like an order of magnitude better than cars at what they do. I agree with the article that, as with any new technology, the kinks haven't been worked out. And I agree that it seems to me like a higher income thing than the poorest types of poverty, but I've also definitely been seeing them being used as a last-mile thing everywhere out in the "transit desert" that is East Portland, and sometimes two people to a scooter.
Ok! Off to finish my 8-mile walk home! :D
posted by aniola at 7:49 PM on August 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
That said, I loved the ending, with the reminder that electric scooters are like an order of magnitude better than cars at what they do. I agree with the article that, as with any new technology, the kinks haven't been worked out. And I agree that it seems to me like a higher income thing than the poorest types of poverty, but I've also definitely been seeing them being used as a last-mile thing everywhere out in the "transit desert" that is East Portland, and sometimes two people to a scooter.
Ok! Off to finish my 8-mile walk home! :D
posted by aniola at 7:49 PM on August 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
More transportation and mobility options is a definite good, but there needs to be some regulations and limitations. The electric scooters have not (yet?) reached where I live, but the bike-share bikes are all over the sidewalks. Put them in a wide area, sure. But blocking the sidewalk seems like an ADA violation and just a general diminishing of quality of life.
Getting rid of car parking spots in favor of bike/scooter/whatever parking would be the ideal outcome, but most places aren't there yet.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:52 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Getting rid of car parking spots in favor of bike/scooter/whatever parking would be the ideal outcome, but most places aren't there yet.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:52 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I live in SF and though I look healthy, I'm actually surprisingly disabled. It was heaven to have the scooters here. I used them constantly to tackle hills, which I can't usually walk up, and to get things like groceries home from father away than I could usually manage. Bikes are hard for me. Ride shares still add unnecessary car pollution and, when only going a few blocks, are not even remotely a reasonable option. I'm thrilled the scooters are coming back. My world opens when they're here.
posted by foxtongue at 7:58 PM on August 30, 2018 [50 favorites]
posted by foxtongue at 7:58 PM on August 30, 2018 [50 favorites]
In principle they could be OK. In practice, I have a couple problems with them (and they are EVERYWHERE here).
First, they are often ridden at high speed on the sidewalk. This is pretty dangerous, I've been hit twice (no serious injury, but its all about circumstances). You can't hear them coming and people riding them often don't pay any attention where they are going.
When they are ridden in the street, the majority ignore stop signs. So you have someone cruising through intersections regardless of cars, quite frequently. I've nearly hit a couple this way (in my neighborhood, intersections usually only have 1 street with stop signs and hte other street has none, so if a scooter decides to cruise through the stop sign they're going directly in front of full-speed traffic).
Lastly, I literally want them to get off my lawn. People abandon them everywhere, including on the path to my front door, on my side lawn, on top of flowers/plants/etc, and so on.
posted by thefoxgod at 8:00 PM on August 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
First, they are often ridden at high speed on the sidewalk. This is pretty dangerous, I've been hit twice (no serious injury, but its all about circumstances). You can't hear them coming and people riding them often don't pay any attention where they are going.
When they are ridden in the street, the majority ignore stop signs. So you have someone cruising through intersections regardless of cars, quite frequently. I've nearly hit a couple this way (in my neighborhood, intersections usually only have 1 street with stop signs and hte other street has none, so if a scooter decides to cruise through the stop sign they're going directly in front of full-speed traffic).
Lastly, I literally want them to get off my lawn. People abandon them everywhere, including on the path to my front door, on my side lawn, on top of flowers/plants/etc, and so on.
posted by thefoxgod at 8:00 PM on August 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
They also quite frequently block sidewalks in my neighborhood (as in, I can't remember a single day when they don't). I can simply walk over them, but if I was in a wheelchair it would be a real problem.
The most common position to find one is sprawled completely across a sidewalk (because people kind of fling them down when they get off them).
posted by thefoxgod at 8:03 PM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
The most common position to find one is sprawled completely across a sidewalk (because people kind of fling them down when they get off them).
posted by thefoxgod at 8:03 PM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Count me as another who view them as a net positive. And I will be thrilled if the increased usage expands our bike lanes and decreases car use.
What they are currently missing is accountability. There needs to be a way to let the companies know that someone has hit you, or left the vehicle in a jackass location, and right now, there’s none. There need to be laws and repercussions to breaking them, and I hope they happen soon.
posted by greermahoney at 8:05 PM on August 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
What they are currently missing is accountability. There needs to be a way to let the companies know that someone has hit you, or left the vehicle in a jackass location, and right now, there’s none. There need to be laws and repercussions to breaking them, and I hope they happen soon.
posted by greermahoney at 8:05 PM on August 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
I think the huge growth in electric commuter bikes and rental scooters over the last few years is creating a large population of people who never biked but now want bike lanes.
I think its just a matter of time till more inner city roads get reclaimed by separated bike/scooter lanes.
posted by zymil at 8:06 PM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think its just a matter of time till more inner city roads get reclaimed by separated bike/scooter lanes.
posted by zymil at 8:06 PM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
vehicles sure bring out the worst in people
posted by thelonius at 8:07 PM on August 30, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 8:07 PM on August 30, 2018 [14 favorites]
First, they are often ridden at high speed on the sidewalk.
..
When they are ridden in the street, the majority ignore stop signs.
Oh, you mean it's a pushbike?
posted by pompomtom at 8:09 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
..
When they are ridden in the street, the majority ignore stop signs.
Oh, you mean it's a pushbike?
posted by pompomtom at 8:09 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't want to use the scooters or dockless bikes (or Lyft or Uber) because I don't trust these companies with data about my door-to-door movement. I am also trying to square the hubbub made about Google's location tracking with the lack of concern so many have about allowing the same from the micro-mobility startups that have mushroomed.
At the same time, I do hope that their uptake will spur investment in bike infrastructure (and kill cars).
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 8:19 PM on August 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
At the same time, I do hope that their uptake will spur investment in bike infrastructure (and kill cars).
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 8:19 PM on August 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'm a militant cyclist who's fine with these scooters in bike lanes. It should be obvious that the speeds they're capable of makes them unsafe to mix with pedestrians. There's clearly a demand for more transport options and they seem to work well for a lot of people for various reasons. This dockless nonsense needs to stop though -- for bikes as well as scooters.
In urban areas the only vehicles that belong on sidewalks are wheelchairs, mobility scooters, and baby carriages/strollers. Everything else goes in the street. That's why it's necessary for everyone to sign on to the idea that roads are to be shared, which I realize is not a widely-shared belief in many places. We really need to work on that.
posted by theory at 8:20 PM on August 30, 2018 [37 favorites]
In urban areas the only vehicles that belong on sidewalks are wheelchairs, mobility scooters, and baby carriages/strollers. Everything else goes in the street. That's why it's necessary for everyone to sign on to the idea that roads are to be shared, which I realize is not a widely-shared belief in many places. We really need to work on that.
posted by theory at 8:20 PM on August 30, 2018 [37 favorites]
What they are currently missing is accountability
I think this is right. They are more problematic than bikes primarily because of the model, I think. For example, no one leaves their bikes strewn across the sidewalk (except in 1950s suburbia), because it will be stolen in about 5 seconds. But no one owns these, so they don't really care about them.
Similarly, the bar to entry is very low --- which can be good, but also means no one pays attention to laws or how they should ride or anything. Bikes (which usually imply ownership) can be ridden badly, but I see a much higher rate of bad behavior on the scooters than I do on bicycles (or cars, which certainly have their own problematic drivers).
posted by thefoxgod at 8:20 PM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think this is right. They are more problematic than bikes primarily because of the model, I think. For example, no one leaves their bikes strewn across the sidewalk (except in 1950s suburbia), because it will be stolen in about 5 seconds. But no one owns these, so they don't really care about them.
Similarly, the bar to entry is very low --- which can be good, but also means no one pays attention to laws or how they should ride or anything. Bikes (which usually imply ownership) can be ridden badly, but I see a much higher rate of bad behavior on the scooters than I do on bicycles (or cars, which certainly have their own problematic drivers).
posted by thefoxgod at 8:20 PM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I have a friend who lives in Venice (CA). She counts 200-300 Birds within 5 blocks of her house every single day (she makes a game of it while she and her kid walk the dog).
Last week she personally witnessed not one but TWO different Bird riders, in different incidents, involved in head-on collisions with cars within a span of 24 hours. One went through the windshield of the car. The next day the police told her he was alive but in bad shape. The accident was 100% the Bird rider's fault.
I predict these companies will be sued out of existence in the not too distant future.
posted by vignettist at 8:23 PM on August 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
Last week she personally witnessed not one but TWO different Bird riders, in different incidents, involved in head-on collisions with cars within a span of 24 hours. One went through the windshield of the car. The next day the police told her he was alive but in bad shape. The accident was 100% the Bird rider's fault.
I predict these companies will be sued out of existence in the not too distant future.
posted by vignettist at 8:23 PM on August 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
Why don't cyclists want e-scooters in the bike lane?
Cyclist here. I'm cool with scooters in the bike lane. I ask 2 things: please wear your helmet and please observe the same rules cyclists do. (Pay attention, obey traffic signals, holler when you're passing. The usual.)
These scooters are pretty great. I borrowed the neighbor kid's scooter a couple years ago to chase down my escaped dog. It was much easier on the creaky old knees!
posted by MissySedai at 8:30 PM on August 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
Cyclist here. I'm cool with scooters in the bike lane. I ask 2 things: please wear your helmet and please observe the same rules cyclists do. (Pay attention, obey traffic signals, holler when you're passing. The usual.)
These scooters are pretty great. I borrowed the neighbor kid's scooter a couple years ago to chase down my escaped dog. It was much easier on the creaky old knees!
posted by MissySedai at 8:30 PM on August 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
I unabashedly love these things. I live in a medium-density neighborhood -- not busy enough that blocking the sidewalk is really ever going to be a problem, but busy enough that there are many destinations within a 10 minute scooter ride from my house, and parking is a massive hassle. Electric scooters are perfect. I'm actually seriously thinking about buying one for myself because there aren't enough Birds in the area yet.
posted by miyabo at 8:36 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by miyabo at 8:36 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
people ignoring the very generous bike lanes so they can blast down the sidewalks
Wait, are these lanes actually protected from car traffic in any way other than by paint? Because I have a different definition of what constitutes "generous" (or even "adequate") from my local governments, or from anyone else who isn't using them. Protected, enough room to pass and to ride side-by-side, no counting the gutter as part of the lane, swept regularly and well... I have a long list, but then I bike everywhere.
The gravel that filters into most of the bike lanes I use regularly would make scootering pretty unsafe all on its own, what with the small wheels. That's only considering scooter-user solo injuries, not even anything involving cars. Or, say, lifted trucks with murder-bars on the front, awfully common in my area.
Nearly every time someone's riding a bike or scooter on the sidewalk, it's an indicator of where protected bike infrastructure ought to be. Because a lot of people don't feel comfortable biking in a bike lane with nothing physical separating them and the two-ton murder machines, and I can't really fault them for it. Can't see why it would be different on a scooter.
And while it's not true that sidewalks don't have cars driven on them, the more safe, convenient, intuitive accommodations for people walking, biking, and whatever other wacky new human-sized transportation methods we come up with, the safer the sidewalks will be. Also, people in cars will be safer, if anyone cares about that.
posted by asperity at 8:42 PM on August 30, 2018 [23 favorites]
Wait, are these lanes actually protected from car traffic in any way other than by paint? Because I have a different definition of what constitutes "generous" (or even "adequate") from my local governments, or from anyone else who isn't using them. Protected, enough room to pass and to ride side-by-side, no counting the gutter as part of the lane, swept regularly and well... I have a long list, but then I bike everywhere.
The gravel that filters into most of the bike lanes I use regularly would make scootering pretty unsafe all on its own, what with the small wheels. That's only considering scooter-user solo injuries, not even anything involving cars. Or, say, lifted trucks with murder-bars on the front, awfully common in my area.
Nearly every time someone's riding a bike or scooter on the sidewalk, it's an indicator of where protected bike infrastructure ought to be. Because a lot of people don't feel comfortable biking in a bike lane with nothing physical separating them and the two-ton murder machines, and I can't really fault them for it. Can't see why it would be different on a scooter.
And while it's not true that sidewalks don't have cars driven on them, the more safe, convenient, intuitive accommodations for people walking, biking, and whatever other wacky new human-sized transportation methods we come up with, the safer the sidewalks will be. Also, people in cars will be safer, if anyone cares about that.
posted by asperity at 8:42 PM on August 30, 2018 [23 favorites]
vehicles sure bring out the worst in people
Ain't that the truth. I love how things like these electric scooter sharing programs have turned even well meaning left leaning people into raging assholes. Because tech bros/capitalism/getoff my lawn out of my bike lane/car lane.
I have a friend who lives in Venice (CA). She counts 200-300 Birds within 5 blocks of her house every single day (she makes a game of it while she and her kid walk the dog).
The horror.
Last week she personally witnessed not one but TWO different Bird riders, in different incidents, involved in head-on collisions with cars within a span of 24 hours. One went through the windshield of the car. The next day the police told her he was alive but in bad shape. The accident was 100% the Bird rider's fault.
This would never happen with bicycles. Or cars. Or pedestrians.
I predict these companies will be sued out of existence in the not too distant future.
Ah, do I detect a glimmer of hope here?
It seems to me the biggest problem electric scooters present is with the vehement dislike some non users have for them. Because of reasons, of course, everyone feels totally justified in being everything from passive aggressive to outright aggressive. Yet I have not observed how these dockless scooter enterprises have been anything but overall net positive. They make more sense than bikeshare in many cases. Not only do they make sense for many transportation solutions, they are just fun to ride. How's that for evil?
posted by 2N2222 at 8:47 PM on August 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
Ain't that the truth. I love how things like these electric scooter sharing programs have turned even well meaning left leaning people into raging assholes. Because tech bros/capitalism/get
I have a friend who lives in Venice (CA). She counts 200-300 Birds within 5 blocks of her house every single day (she makes a game of it while she and her kid walk the dog).
The horror.
Last week she personally witnessed not one but TWO different Bird riders, in different incidents, involved in head-on collisions with cars within a span of 24 hours. One went through the windshield of the car. The next day the police told her he was alive but in bad shape. The accident was 100% the Bird rider's fault.
This would never happen with bicycles. Or cars. Or pedestrians.
I predict these companies will be sued out of existence in the not too distant future.
Ah, do I detect a glimmer of hope here?
It seems to me the biggest problem electric scooters present is with the vehement dislike some non users have for them. Because of reasons, of course, everyone feels totally justified in being everything from passive aggressive to outright aggressive. Yet I have not observed how these dockless scooter enterprises have been anything but overall net positive. They make more sense than bikeshare in many cases. Not only do they make sense for many transportation solutions, they are just fun to ride. How's that for evil?
posted by 2N2222 at 8:47 PM on August 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
Why don't cyclists want e-scooters in the bike lane?
The answer is right in the question.
posted by sideshow at 9:06 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
The answer is right in the question.
posted by sideshow at 9:06 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
These popped up for just one day in Chapel Hill and I'm already 1000000000% against it because I nearly got mowed down twice in one day-- once as I was walking and another as I got the green light while biking home and an scooter idiot decided to whizz across the crosswalk in the direction that had a red light/clear do not walk light.
posted by astapasta24 at 9:08 PM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by astapasta24 at 9:08 PM on August 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
The way that chargers have already gamed the charging system is interesting. Apparently some hide/hoard the scooters in their apartments so it's easy to charge them the next day.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 9:10 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 9:10 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yet another parasite transportation company.
posted by MrGuilt at 9:15 PM on August 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by MrGuilt at 9:15 PM on August 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
Literally 25% of the area of Seattle is devoted to right of ways. The overwhelming majority of that - probably 95% or more - permits only cars and other motorized vehicles. I’ll worry about scooters being an issue when that utter absurdity changes.
posted by R343L at 9:19 PM on August 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by R343L at 9:19 PM on August 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
I was reading somewhere the other day that we should shift our transit conversation to talk about wide-lane vehicles (cars, buses, and trucks), narrow-lane vehicles (bikes, scooters, and similar), and sidewalks (pedestrians). And that infrastructure in cities should talk about wide-lane, narrow-lane, and sidewalks on every road ... and once you start talking that way, wide-lane starts to seem less good, because it takes up a ton of space, while narrow-lane is much more polite! When we talk about roads, bike lanes, and sidewalks, bike lanes seem like a special use case. But when it's wide-lane, narrow-lane, and sidewalk, bikes and scooters are elevated to equality with cars and trucks, and sidewalks start to sound like the natural habitat of the traveler, while narrow- and wide-lane uses are the less-usual cases. (And wide-lane by far the most space-intensive! Rather than the "road" default.)
I'm not 100% sold that it shifts the mental concepts so far that Americans will stop thinking of cars as defaults, but I was pretty convinced that wide-lane/narrow-lane was a super-useful way to think about urban and suburban transit infrastructure.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:25 PM on August 30, 2018 [70 favorites]
I'm not 100% sold that it shifts the mental concepts so far that Americans will stop thinking of cars as defaults, but I was pretty convinced that wide-lane/narrow-lane was a super-useful way to think about urban and suburban transit infrastructure.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:25 PM on August 30, 2018 [70 favorites]
Eyebrows McGee, that really chimes with how I wish we'd think about streets -- where did you read that?
posted by theory at 9:34 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by theory at 9:34 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I linked some of those in the last fighting over right-of-way scraps thread.
posted by asperity at 9:40 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by asperity at 9:40 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
And I like the idea that we can think about new, better ways to delineate streetscape space, whether those are the terms we use or not.
I'm so, so frustrated with even the inadequate infrastructure we're told we should be grateful for, with the never-enforced laws that aren't good enough anyway, and basically everything to do with car culture. It's been a rough week out there on the roads. Juggling which video of drivers behaving badly I want to send to the police (they will ignore it) since if I sent even a fraction of what I see, I would look like even more of a crank than I do just by existing outside of a car.
I'm for the scooter apocalypse, since for all the companies' faults, they're trying to get cities to basically let them buy bicycle infrastructure. Nobody else in bicycle advocacy, retail, or manufacture can afford to do that, because bikes are old tech and uninteresting to venture capitalists.
posted by asperity at 9:52 PM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm so, so frustrated with even the inadequate infrastructure we're told we should be grateful for, with the never-enforced laws that aren't good enough anyway, and basically everything to do with car culture. It's been a rough week out there on the roads. Juggling which video of drivers behaving badly I want to send to the police (they will ignore it) since if I sent even a fraction of what I see, I would look like even more of a crank than I do just by existing outside of a car.
I'm for the scooter apocalypse, since for all the companies' faults, they're trying to get cities to basically let them buy bicycle infrastructure. Nobody else in bicycle advocacy, retail, or manufacture can afford to do that, because bikes are old tech and uninteresting to venture capitalists.
posted by asperity at 9:52 PM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I saw a couple teens riding them in the freeway shoulder the other day.
posted by latkes at 9:52 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by latkes at 9:52 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
It’s definitely time to rethink how we use our roads but let’s not just hand it over to venture capitalists who see a disruption opportunity.
(Me? I think it’s an opportunity to mimic the Chinese umbrella share or bike share pump and dump schemes.)
posted by notyou at 10:08 PM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
(Me? I think it’s an opportunity to mimic the Chinese umbrella share or bike share pump and dump schemes.)
posted by notyou at 10:08 PM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Why don't cyclists want e-scooters in the bike lane?
The answer is right in the question.
So, same reason they shouldn't be on the sidewalk?
It seems to me that the easiest solution would be to use only scooters that don't go beyond a certain speed limit.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:21 PM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
The answer is right in the question.
So, same reason they shouldn't be on the sidewalk?
It seems to me that the easiest solution would be to use only scooters that don't go beyond a certain speed limit.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:21 PM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
If they're asking for the same things I've been begging for at public meetings for years now, but being listened to because money and novelty, I will take it. Can't be worse than the failed dockless cars experiment, anyway.
I reserve the right to revise this opinion if they try to get private branded share-scooter-only infrastructure that consists of something more than paint or signs for parking spaces.
posted by asperity at 10:21 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I reserve the right to revise this opinion if they try to get private branded share-scooter-only infrastructure that consists of something more than paint or signs for parking spaces.
posted by asperity at 10:21 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
These landed in Portland about a month ago and I *love* them. I'm a regular bike commuter (an hour a day) and I've found them really useful for:
1. Commuting to/from work during the worst of the recent PNW smoke pollution. I really didn't want to be breathing hard with an AQI over 150 and scooting was a great alternative.
2. I also took the bus partially home and then scooted the last couple miles. Parking right in front of my house was awesome!
3. I had an off-site that was about 20 blocks from work. I cycled into work, showered, and then hopped on a scooter to the off-site. Easy peasy and I didn't have to worry about being sweaty.
4. I had a team outing and convinced seven of my teammates to get there via e-scooter rather than us taking a mix of personal cars and Lyfts. Everyone loved it and it gave those folks who don't usually bike a better feel for what it's like to ride alongside cars.
I am thrilled every time I see a scooter in the bike lane because the more we diversify our transit ecosystem, the more we calm traffic. I haven't found them to be any worse than the many different styles of bikes and bike riders that are already there. The more the merrier. Our 30 year bike master plan had a lofty goal of 25% bike ridership. If we're ever to get anywhere near that target it will mean much more crowded bike lanes anyway.
As for polluting the sidewalks, my personal perception is that it's not really an issue in Portland. I haven't noticed them blocking wheelchair access (I've been looking out for that) and I hope that's not happening. I haven't seen any lying on their sides or parked poorly. It's certainly possible that it's happening in parts of the city I haven't visited. But the San Francisco horror story seems to have passed us by.
posted by funkiwan at 10:33 PM on August 30, 2018 [16 favorites]
1. Commuting to/from work during the worst of the recent PNW smoke pollution. I really didn't want to be breathing hard with an AQI over 150 and scooting was a great alternative.
2. I also took the bus partially home and then scooted the last couple miles. Parking right in front of my house was awesome!
3. I had an off-site that was about 20 blocks from work. I cycled into work, showered, and then hopped on a scooter to the off-site. Easy peasy and I didn't have to worry about being sweaty.
4. I had a team outing and convinced seven of my teammates to get there via e-scooter rather than us taking a mix of personal cars and Lyfts. Everyone loved it and it gave those folks who don't usually bike a better feel for what it's like to ride alongside cars.
I am thrilled every time I see a scooter in the bike lane because the more we diversify our transit ecosystem, the more we calm traffic. I haven't found them to be any worse than the many different styles of bikes and bike riders that are already there. The more the merrier. Our 30 year bike master plan had a lofty goal of 25% bike ridership. If we're ever to get anywhere near that target it will mean much more crowded bike lanes anyway.
As for polluting the sidewalks, my personal perception is that it's not really an issue in Portland. I haven't noticed them blocking wheelchair access (I've been looking out for that) and I hope that's not happening. I haven't seen any lying on their sides or parked poorly. It's certainly possible that it's happening in parts of the city I haven't visited. But the San Francisco horror story seems to have passed us by.
posted by funkiwan at 10:33 PM on August 30, 2018 [16 favorites]
"where did you read that?"
My best guess is either vox.com or curbed.com or (here's the tricky bit!) a vox or curbed writer on twitter. (Also possibly PlacesJournal.com, but I don't follow any of their writers on twitter so it'd be on the site.) As I wasn't able to turn it up by searching vox or curbed, it was probably a thread by one of their writers on twitter, or linked to therefrom. Googling "narrow lane bicycle" pulls up a fair amount of stuff, though!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:38 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
My best guess is either vox.com or curbed.com or (here's the tricky bit!) a vox or curbed writer on twitter. (Also possibly PlacesJournal.com, but I don't follow any of their writers on twitter so it'd be on the site.) As I wasn't able to turn it up by searching vox or curbed, it was probably a thread by one of their writers on twitter, or linked to therefrom. Googling "narrow lane bicycle" pulls up a fair amount of stuff, though!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:38 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
They’re incredibly unsafe for pedestrians. I live in an area where they’re definitely not used by low income people so I might be less than sympathetic but I’ve been clipped by complete morons twice. They should have a built-in speed limit since I doubt the selfabsorbed losers who use them around here would follow any relevant laws anyway.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:58 PM on August 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 10:58 PM on August 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
Eyebrows, was it perhaps this tweet (or some article based on it somewhere), which made the rounds in transport Twitter a bit?
posted by zachlipton at 1:05 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 1:05 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
I will give them credit for taking cars off the road when their business model doesn’t result in multiple cars circling the same block at night in search of scooters to recharge. Several drivers are out there at the same time, competing for the same high-value scooters, after the scooters become unavailable for use. (They turn into pumpkins, basically.) Yesterday I watched a driver pull onto a sidewalk and leave her car idling there while she jumped out to grab scooters parked curbside. Yay team?
Sidewalks in my city are already full of rogue cyclists* going street speeds and treating pedestrians like target practice; now if we walk we can also expect to compete with scooter riders AND the occasional motorist-mercenary-scooter-chauffeur. This makes me want to get back in my car, too, because even walking to public transit scares the hell out of me right now.
*Obviously #NotAllCyclists, and I really am grateful for the ones out there riding with traffic in the bike lanes, or sticking to slow speeds if conditions force them onto the pavement. I’m grateful for BOTH the kids I’ve seen riding scooters that way as well.
posted by armeowda at 2:03 AM on August 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
Sidewalks in my city are already full of rogue cyclists* going street speeds and treating pedestrians like target practice; now if we walk we can also expect to compete with scooter riders AND the occasional motorist-mercenary-scooter-chauffeur. This makes me want to get back in my car, too, because even walking to public transit scares the hell out of me right now.
*Obviously #NotAllCyclists, and I really am grateful for the ones out there riding with traffic in the bike lanes, or sticking to slow speeds if conditions force them onto the pavement. I’m grateful for BOTH the kids I’ve seen riding scooters that way as well.
posted by armeowda at 2:03 AM on August 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
I imagine these will arrive in Toronto at some point.
Then they will likely go away again.
All those dockless shared "dropbikes" didn't really last much past the first winter.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:21 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
Then they will likely go away again.
All those dockless shared "dropbikes" didn't really last much past the first winter.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:21 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
~ As a cyclist ~ I feel about scooters somewhat similar to how I feel about city bikeshare: it's great that more people are using transportation alternatives! But with any big group of new non-car road users, you get (in my experience) a minority who are jerks or have poor handling skills. So you get the people who cannot imagine successfully going over a small bump and so they're swerving all over the path going 7mph and you *really* want to pass them but it's not safe. The real solution is to have more space for modes like bikes and scooters. Until then I try to keep in mind that I've done some asshole things in the bike lane too, everyone had to start somewhere, and it's better that they grind my gears than terrorize people on the sidewalk.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 5:38 AM on August 31, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 5:38 AM on August 31, 2018 [10 favorites]
I traveled from Philly to St. Louis last weekend to hang out with some friends. The three of us checked out the Lime scooters for the first time, and it was just so much fun! We are all big cyclist people, but definitely 100% only rode on sidewalks. If you live in St. Louis, you know why - the bike lanes are a *joke* and the drivers are *insane*.
That said, we pretty much just used them to get around the big city park there, which was just so much fun. The scooters handled the paved multi-use path and all of the cracks and bumps with aplomb, and even did pretty good on the sections of gravel.
The killer feature really was the ability to spend time outside without physical exertion. It was 94 degrees before humidity in St. Louis last weekend. There's no way I could have ridden a bike around and not wanted to die. Thumbs up for scooters!
Now, I don't expect these to come to Philly anytime soon because our roads and sidewalks are 100% garbage. Like, we'd need some monster truck tires on the scooters to get around here.
posted by lazaruslong at 6:06 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
That said, we pretty much just used them to get around the big city park there, which was just so much fun. The scooters handled the paved multi-use path and all of the cracks and bumps with aplomb, and even did pretty good on the sections of gravel.
The killer feature really was the ability to spend time outside without physical exertion. It was 94 degrees before humidity in St. Louis last weekend. There's no way I could have ridden a bike around and not wanted to die. Thumbs up for scooters!
Now, I don't expect these to come to Philly anytime soon because our roads and sidewalks are 100% garbage. Like, we'd need some monster truck tires on the scooters to get around here.
posted by lazaruslong at 6:06 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm going to take a moment to defend the Segway, at least in one circumstance - a visually-impaired coworker of mine who gave up his drivers license as his vision degraded ended up taking his driving budget and buying an all-terrain type segway, which was an ideal commute vehicle for him.
I have a 2 mile work commute over surface streets, so I keep eyeing the state of electric bikes, electric scooters, and other similar conveyances. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but I'm glad there's so much progress on it. (And I'm still annoyed that all the electric motorcycles I've seen are too tall for my short-legged inseam)
posted by rmd1023 at 6:24 AM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have a 2 mile work commute over surface streets, so I keep eyeing the state of electric bikes, electric scooters, and other similar conveyances. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but I'm glad there's so much progress on it. (And I'm still annoyed that all the electric motorcycles I've seen are too tall for my short-legged inseam)
posted by rmd1023 at 6:24 AM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Why don't cyclists want e-scooters in the bike lane?
For me personally, it comes down to a couple of major things that could easily be fixed. The biggest one to me is that they are typically traveling faster (15-20 mph) than most cyclists. Your typical "transportation cyclist" is not moving at those speeds and may be encumbered by stuff they're trying to haul or are riding the heavy bike-share bikes that will never go that fast. (I also have issues with e-bikes in the bike lane for the same reason. They can easily travel the motor vehicle speed limit, which seems risky to me when they're whizzing around slower cyclists.)
Second, the companies aren't doing anything to educate users who may have never used bike lanes before. For the brief time the scooters were here in town, I watched out my office window (facing a very busy bike artery at a major intersection) as scooters busted through red lights, wormed through pedestrians in the crosswalk, and generally did not operate in a "respectful" way on the road. I see this with a lot of other alternative transportation riders, too - it almost seems like people think, "Well, I'm not a bike - I don't have to follow the bike rules." Here in Cambridge we have a lot of weird transit methods (the electric unicycle skateboards are my favorite) and since they don't "fit in" with one particular group they feel like they don't have to adhere to any rules.
I'm generally not in favor of the dockless paradigm (scooter or otherwise) for several reasons. First and foremost, our docked bike share system is actually owned by the municipalities where it operates. We have our cities working hard to make sure the system integrates well in to the greater infrastructure system, and the dockless systems disrupt that work. Second, as a lot of people have mentioned, there's a sort of tragedy of the commons that occurs with the dockless systems - I don't own this bike/scooter or the land where I picked it up or want to drop it off, so why not chuck it in a bush or block a sidewalk with it? It's someone else's problem after that. Since the vehicles don't need to be locked up, there's nothing to incentivize putting them out of the way; I have to lock my personal bike to something so it won't be stolen, so it's more or less required that I need to park my bike in a rack or against a pole that's not going to interfere with other people. I also hate the business model of playing regulatory chicken with the city and refuse to support dockless systems until the companies start trying to cooperate with the public they're trying to serve.
I would be more in favor of dockless systems if they could be regulated to require parking them the same way you would park your personal bike - in bike racks, against poles, or similar places. I would also want assurances that the system is not limited to the high-income areas where they think they can make the most money (and, admittedly, the original Hubway rollout was guilty of the same thing). Working with the city is also a must, and I think it could actually be a positive force on our infrastructure by identifying high traffic neighborhoods to add bike racks, etc.
posted by backseatpilot at 6:36 AM on August 31, 2018 [8 favorites]
For me personally, it comes down to a couple of major things that could easily be fixed. The biggest one to me is that they are typically traveling faster (15-20 mph) than most cyclists. Your typical "transportation cyclist" is not moving at those speeds and may be encumbered by stuff they're trying to haul or are riding the heavy bike-share bikes that will never go that fast. (I also have issues with e-bikes in the bike lane for the same reason. They can easily travel the motor vehicle speed limit, which seems risky to me when they're whizzing around slower cyclists.)
Second, the companies aren't doing anything to educate users who may have never used bike lanes before. For the brief time the scooters were here in town, I watched out my office window (facing a very busy bike artery at a major intersection) as scooters busted through red lights, wormed through pedestrians in the crosswalk, and generally did not operate in a "respectful" way on the road. I see this with a lot of other alternative transportation riders, too - it almost seems like people think, "Well, I'm not a bike - I don't have to follow the bike rules." Here in Cambridge we have a lot of weird transit methods (the electric unicycle skateboards are my favorite) and since they don't "fit in" with one particular group they feel like they don't have to adhere to any rules.
I'm generally not in favor of the dockless paradigm (scooter or otherwise) for several reasons. First and foremost, our docked bike share system is actually owned by the municipalities where it operates. We have our cities working hard to make sure the system integrates well in to the greater infrastructure system, and the dockless systems disrupt that work. Second, as a lot of people have mentioned, there's a sort of tragedy of the commons that occurs with the dockless systems - I don't own this bike/scooter or the land where I picked it up or want to drop it off, so why not chuck it in a bush or block a sidewalk with it? It's someone else's problem after that. Since the vehicles don't need to be locked up, there's nothing to incentivize putting them out of the way; I have to lock my personal bike to something so it won't be stolen, so it's more or less required that I need to park my bike in a rack or against a pole that's not going to interfere with other people. I also hate the business model of playing regulatory chicken with the city and refuse to support dockless systems until the companies start trying to cooperate with the public they're trying to serve.
I would be more in favor of dockless systems if they could be regulated to require parking them the same way you would park your personal bike - in bike racks, against poles, or similar places. I would also want assurances that the system is not limited to the high-income areas where they think they can make the most money (and, admittedly, the original Hubway rollout was guilty of the same thing). Working with the city is also a must, and I think it could actually be a positive force on our infrastructure by identifying high traffic neighborhoods to add bike racks, etc.
posted by backseatpilot at 6:36 AM on August 31, 2018 [8 favorites]
TheWhiteSkull: I imagine these will arrive in Toronto at some point.
Then they will likely go away again.
Yeah, here in New England I am imagining the same thing: scooters arrive, college students use them, snow falls, college students break their collarbones on the slippery streets, scooters go away.
Whether it's permanent or just until spring I am not yet sure. If they return, it would be a great joke, though: here we call old people who flee to Florida for half the year "snowbirds," so Bird-brand scooters that go away for winter would be... *kisses fingers* Perfect!
posted by wenestvedt at 6:45 AM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Then they will likely go away again.
Yeah, here in New England I am imagining the same thing: scooters arrive, college students use them, snow falls, college students break their collarbones on the slippery streets, scooters go away.
Whether it's permanent or just until spring I am not yet sure. If they return, it would be a great joke, though: here we call old people who flee to Florida for half the year "snowbirds," so Bird-brand scooters that go away for winter would be... *kisses fingers* Perfect!
posted by wenestvedt at 6:45 AM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's no fair that where you all live scooters block sidewalks. Where I live, things like telephone poles, construction signs, and underground infrastructure that isn't even sort of level with the sidewalk block the sidewalk. In my neighborhood, there is a light pole directly in the middle of an ADA ramp.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:18 AM on August 31, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:18 AM on August 31, 2018 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I'm a bike rider, and I like em. For two reasons: first, I have friends with health problems that make bikes, motorcycles, etc. difficult to impossible.
Second, the shear hilarity of watching the stupid things people do on them.
On their first day in Denver, on my way home from work, I watched an extremely drunk bro on one crumple and fall over in extreme slow motion. It was the best.
Yes, I know, I'm a bad human and there's nothing funny about drunkenness, or scooters, or Bros. I'm called evildoug for a reason.
posted by evilDoug at 7:25 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
Second, the shear hilarity of watching the stupid things people do on them.
On their first day in Denver, on my way home from work, I watched an extremely drunk bro on one crumple and fall over in extreme slow motion. It was the best.
Yes, I know, I'm a bad human and there's nothing funny about drunkenness, or scooters, or Bros. I'm called evildoug for a reason.
posted by evilDoug at 7:25 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
This week's Interchange podcast is an interview with Emily Warren, the senior director of public policy at Lime. It's pretty interesting, not least because she used to do the same job at Lyft.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 7:33 AM on August 31, 2018
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 7:33 AM on August 31, 2018
I do think that if we want more serious amounts of travel by bike or scooter or eBike or whatever, we all have to accept that bike lanes will be more congested and everyone is going to have to adjust their speed and attentiveness to match conditions.
When I lived in Beijing and Shanghai (back before the pollution got so bad), bike lanes at peak hours were packed. You had to pay attention, you couldn't zoom and weave unless you seriously wanted to risk an accident and you had to adjust your speed to conditions. Everyone had adjusted to the idea that bike commuting was a form of transit, not a sport, and to the idea that if everyone is going somewhere by bike, you can't expect to travel at your own personal maximum speed.
I live in Minneapolis, a city that wins national awards for bike-friendliness. I bike virtually every day throughout the year. The bike lanes are almost never crowded and even the greenway/path system is really only crowded in a few places in beautiful weather or at absolute peak commuter hours. As a result, we all seem to have developed the mentality that we don't need to adjust to conditions - I see a lot of spandex bros, for instance, trying to force people to swerve so that they can take up most of the bike path; I see a lot of people going too fast for conditions, or neglecting to slow down in mixed pedestrian/bike areas.
In this situation, yes, eBikes and scooters are going to be a fucking disaster, because we're already in a situation where everyone thinks that they're entitled to ride as fast and dangerously as they like even though they're using a shared amenity and not at the velodrome. But if we all - including scooter riders - really got used to the idea that we're sharing a limited space, it could work pretty well.
Scooter riders on a crowded path just can't go super fast, any more than spandex bros can. But as long as everyone adjusts to conditions, mass commuting works fine.
posted by Frowner at 8:38 AM on August 31, 2018 [15 favorites]
When I lived in Beijing and Shanghai (back before the pollution got so bad), bike lanes at peak hours were packed. You had to pay attention, you couldn't zoom and weave unless you seriously wanted to risk an accident and you had to adjust your speed to conditions. Everyone had adjusted to the idea that bike commuting was a form of transit, not a sport, and to the idea that if everyone is going somewhere by bike, you can't expect to travel at your own personal maximum speed.
I live in Minneapolis, a city that wins national awards for bike-friendliness. I bike virtually every day throughout the year. The bike lanes are almost never crowded and even the greenway/path system is really only crowded in a few places in beautiful weather or at absolute peak commuter hours. As a result, we all seem to have developed the mentality that we don't need to adjust to conditions - I see a lot of spandex bros, for instance, trying to force people to swerve so that they can take up most of the bike path; I see a lot of people going too fast for conditions, or neglecting to slow down in mixed pedestrian/bike areas.
In this situation, yes, eBikes and scooters are going to be a fucking disaster, because we're already in a situation where everyone thinks that they're entitled to ride as fast and dangerously as they like even though they're using a shared amenity and not at the velodrome. But if we all - including scooter riders - really got used to the idea that we're sharing a limited space, it could work pretty well.
Scooter riders on a crowded path just can't go super fast, any more than spandex bros can. But as long as everyone adjusts to conditions, mass commuting works fine.
posted by Frowner at 8:38 AM on August 31, 2018 [15 favorites]
backseatpilot: I'm generally not in favor of the dockless paradigm (scooter or otherwise) for several reasons.
I've tried using docked bikeshares a few times, and they're terrible compared to owning a bike -- the main problem being that you have to find an open dock near your destination. During rush hour this is a particularly grating issue. The last time I ever used our local bikeshare (hi fellow Cantibridgian) was when my road bike broke a spoke before the shops opened and I needed to get to work. The nearest open dock near my office was .5 miles away - and by the time I got there it was full. I wound up having to dock nearly a mile away and walk in.
And yeah yeah just build more docks, but docks take up a ton of space and have fixed capacity. They're terribly inflexible.
The problem is not docklessness per se, it's that people leave scooters everywhere, because people are lazy assholes. The solution is to have simple and clear regulations on where you can park scooters (e.g. must be on hardscape, and cannot block a sidewalk or vehicle path of any kind), and have the city start confiscating scooters that are badly parked. The scooter companies can figure out how they want to incentivize people to park correctly (fine the offenders? require them to be parked in specific locations around the city?).
posted by xthlc at 8:50 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've tried using docked bikeshares a few times, and they're terrible compared to owning a bike -- the main problem being that you have to find an open dock near your destination. During rush hour this is a particularly grating issue. The last time I ever used our local bikeshare (hi fellow Cantibridgian) was when my road bike broke a spoke before the shops opened and I needed to get to work. The nearest open dock near my office was .5 miles away - and by the time I got there it was full. I wound up having to dock nearly a mile away and walk in.
And yeah yeah just build more docks, but docks take up a ton of space and have fixed capacity. They're terribly inflexible.
The problem is not docklessness per se, it's that people leave scooters everywhere, because people are lazy assholes. The solution is to have simple and clear regulations on where you can park scooters (e.g. must be on hardscape, and cannot block a sidewalk or vehicle path of any kind), and have the city start confiscating scooters that are badly parked. The scooter companies can figure out how they want to incentivize people to park correctly (fine the offenders? require them to be parked in specific locations around the city?).
posted by xthlc at 8:50 AM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
I really am grateful for the ones out there riding with traffic in the bike lanes
This shouldn't be how bike lanes are. If we don't want people on bikes and fast scooters on the sidewalks, bike lanes need to feel and be as safe as sidewalks. Using bicycle infrastructure shouldn't be some kind of sacrifice we're expecting of road users who are just as vulnerable as any pedestrian.
And hell, they'll provide more protection to people using the sidewalks that way, too. It's not like people don't drive their cars into people walking on sidewalks (or indoors, FFS) every week.
Speed limiters for electric scooters sound great. But can we have them for cars first? It's not like the tech doesn't exist. And the faster a car's going, the greater the risk to everyone around it. (Check out this fun interactive graph thingy! And SUVs increase the risk to pedestrians, we still allow them to be driven without any additional driver training, and there are more of them on the roads than ever.)
Re: narrow lanes & wide lanes, probably my comment above should've been wearing high-viz gear, but the original discussion was from Jarrett Walker and Sarah Iannarone.
posted by asperity at 8:59 AM on August 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
This shouldn't be how bike lanes are. If we don't want people on bikes and fast scooters on the sidewalks, bike lanes need to feel and be as safe as sidewalks. Using bicycle infrastructure shouldn't be some kind of sacrifice we're expecting of road users who are just as vulnerable as any pedestrian.
And hell, they'll provide more protection to people using the sidewalks that way, too. It's not like people don't drive their cars into people walking on sidewalks (or indoors, FFS) every week.
Speed limiters for electric scooters sound great. But can we have them for cars first? It's not like the tech doesn't exist. And the faster a car's going, the greater the risk to everyone around it. (Check out this fun interactive graph thingy! And SUVs increase the risk to pedestrians, we still allow them to be driven without any additional driver training, and there are more of them on the roads than ever.)
Re: narrow lanes & wide lanes, probably my comment above should've been wearing high-viz gear, but the original discussion was from Jarrett Walker and Sarah Iannarone.
posted by asperity at 8:59 AM on August 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
These just landed in SLC and we're having lots of drama over them here too. Seems to be common.
posted by msbutah at 9:36 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by msbutah at 9:36 AM on August 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
The scooter companies can figure out how they want to incentivize people to park correctly (fine the offenders?
That certainly sounds practical. After all, they know who's using which scooter at any given time. Our local carshare program requires you to report anything amiss with the car before you drive it. The last person who used the car before the problem is reported is assumed to be liable, which makes it in your best interest to report so you won't get blamed yourself. The scooter company could require users to check off whether or not they found the scooter in an appropriate place and condition before they can start it up themselves.
(And yeah, I've long wondered why it's legal to buy or sell a car that is capable of going a dangerously high speed. I mean, yes, there are times when conditions warrant accelerating a bit past the speed limit, but you should only be able to push it just so far.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:32 AM on August 31, 2018
That certainly sounds practical. After all, they know who's using which scooter at any given time. Our local carshare program requires you to report anything amiss with the car before you drive it. The last person who used the car before the problem is reported is assumed to be liable, which makes it in your best interest to report so you won't get blamed yourself. The scooter company could require users to check off whether or not they found the scooter in an appropriate place and condition before they can start it up themselves.
(And yeah, I've long wondered why it's legal to buy or sell a car that is capable of going a dangerously high speed. I mean, yes, there are times when conditions warrant accelerating a bit past the speed limit, but you should only be able to push it just so far.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:32 AM on August 31, 2018
Dockless bikeshares are amazing, and a bike or scooter abandoned on the sidewalk* is a laughably small obstacle compared to the incredibly common parked cars/cafe signs/4 inch drop off curbs that are littered around the ones that do exist. Railing against these on behalf of wheelchair users is the epitome of concern trolling.
*not relevant to the 30% of Seattle that doesn't have sidewalks, while we're concerned about accessibility and walkability!
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:33 AM on August 31, 2018
*not relevant to the 30% of Seattle that doesn't have sidewalks, while we're concerned about accessibility and walkability!
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:33 AM on August 31, 2018
Ok so cities should:
1) legalize dockless scooters and bikes
2) only to companies who have paid employees (not contractors) who charge and maintain them
3) and tax said companies and fine them for when they are left blocking pedestrian and disabled access
posted by latkes at 12:32 PM on August 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
1) legalize dockless scooters and bikes
2) only to companies who have paid employees (not contractors) who charge and maintain them
3) and tax said companies and fine them for when they are left blocking pedestrian and disabled access
posted by latkes at 12:32 PM on August 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
I've been waiting for the scooters to come back to San Francisco. I missed out on the first wave, due to anxiety about the lack of norms. I sorta feel like I need an empty parking lot to get used to the thing, and that's not a thing San Francisco provides.
It would be an ideal mode of transportation for me, since I live only two hilly miles from work. Public transportation is crowded enough, I often delay my commute to avoid claustrophobic panic attacks. I've taken to cabs if I need to get into the office at an early hour.
I know I should be a bike person. But I've never felt comfortable on them. I don't have the balance, though that might be that my legs are simply too short for standard bikes. You add prevalent bike theft, and the upper strength needed to bring the bike into my apartment each night, it just doesn't seem worth the effort to become a bike person.
With a scooter, I'd still need to learn how to feel comfortable in unprotected bike lanes and managing speeds faster than walking. And that's enough that I haven't been able to justify just purchasing a scooter. But it is tempting enough to consider a rental to see if it could fit in my life.
*as an aside, I once tried a Segway at a robotic museum in London. It was the least cool thing I'd ever done, and I absolutely loved how comfortably it maneuvered. I don't think of myself as a vain person, but I'm apparently vain enough that I never seriously considered getting one.
posted by politikitty at 12:34 PM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
It would be an ideal mode of transportation for me, since I live only two hilly miles from work. Public transportation is crowded enough, I often delay my commute to avoid claustrophobic panic attacks. I've taken to cabs if I need to get into the office at an early hour.
I know I should be a bike person. But I've never felt comfortable on them. I don't have the balance, though that might be that my legs are simply too short for standard bikes. You add prevalent bike theft, and the upper strength needed to bring the bike into my apartment each night, it just doesn't seem worth the effort to become a bike person.
With a scooter, I'd still need to learn how to feel comfortable in unprotected bike lanes and managing speeds faster than walking. And that's enough that I haven't been able to justify just purchasing a scooter. But it is tempting enough to consider a rental to see if it could fit in my life.
*as an aside, I once tried a Segway at a robotic museum in London. It was the least cool thing I'd ever done, and I absolutely loved how comfortably it maneuvered. I don't think of myself as a vain person, but I'm apparently vain enough that I never seriously considered getting one.
posted by politikitty at 12:34 PM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
We just got Scoobi sit-down electric scooters (mopeds I guess) in our city. That's all that's been allowed so far.
posted by serena15221 at 12:54 PM on August 31, 2018
posted by serena15221 at 12:54 PM on August 31, 2018
I saw a couple teens riding them in the freeway shoulder the other day.
In most states, freeways in general are open to bicycles on the shoulder, except where explicitly prohibited in typically urban areas.
posted by JackFlash at 3:27 PM on August 31, 2018
In most states, freeways in general are open to bicycles on the shoulder, except where explicitly prohibited in typically urban areas.
posted by JackFlash at 3:27 PM on August 31, 2018
If we don't want people on bikes and fast scooters on the sidewalks, bike lanes need to feel and be as safe as sidewalks.
I absolutely agree that bike lanes should be safer. In my city, sidewalks aren’t “safer” for anyone right now, thanks to the way cyclists and scooter-riders (and remember, the occasional motorist!) commandeer them. They’re often ridiculously unsafe for bikes generally, despite riders’ perceptions to the contrary. The difference is, peds can’t opt to take the bike lane; they have no choice but to yield to ANY vehicle’s relative might and speed. That’s one more layer of vulnerability, and not a trivial one.
We all know the real problem is the presumption that cars get first dibs on public thoroughfares and the rest of us can split the crumbs. You need to ride on the sidewalk because the bike lane is unusable? Fine, just slow to near-walking speed, pass with caution, maneuver predictably, and generally don’t bully walkers and wheelchair users the way motorists bully you (and peds, and each other). The current pecking order will ultimately mean more motorists on the road, because anyone with the choice not to be on the bottom will take it.
posted by armeowda at 5:29 PM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
I absolutely agree that bike lanes should be safer. In my city, sidewalks aren’t “safer” for anyone right now, thanks to the way cyclists and scooter-riders (and remember, the occasional motorist!) commandeer them. They’re often ridiculously unsafe for bikes generally, despite riders’ perceptions to the contrary. The difference is, peds can’t opt to take the bike lane; they have no choice but to yield to ANY vehicle’s relative might and speed. That’s one more layer of vulnerability, and not a trivial one.
We all know the real problem is the presumption that cars get first dibs on public thoroughfares and the rest of us can split the crumbs. You need to ride on the sidewalk because the bike lane is unusable? Fine, just slow to near-walking speed, pass with caution, maneuver predictably, and generally don’t bully walkers and wheelchair users the way motorists bully you (and peds, and each other). The current pecking order will ultimately mean more motorists on the road, because anyone with the choice not to be on the bottom will take it.
posted by armeowda at 5:29 PM on August 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
All those dockless shared "dropbikes" didn't really last much past the first winter.
Here in DC they didn't even last that long AFAICT - it was sorta three months of having them everywhere, and then 90% of them disappeared to be replaced by scooters.
As a daily bike commuter I have no further objection to them than that they actually don't seem particularly efficient, and that people are even stupider on them than they are on bike share.
Oh, and to come full circle, that there's no fucking way they last through three months of wintry mix.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:07 PM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Here in DC they didn't even last that long AFAICT - it was sorta three months of having them everywhere, and then 90% of them disappeared to be replaced by scooters.
As a daily bike commuter I have no further objection to them than that they actually don't seem particularly efficient, and that people are even stupider on them than they are on bike share.
Oh, and to come full circle, that there's no fucking way they last through three months of wintry mix.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:07 PM on August 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Obviously, if you don't want scooters on pavements and you don't want them in bike lanes and you don't want them on the roads, you don't want scooters.
Most road safety works by enforcing responsibility, and where you don't do that, you don't get safety. (Bicyclists who shoot red lights and power across pedestrian crossings on the assumption I can see you and will avoid you, which I can't, get away with it because there are no mechanisms of responsibility.) It is now possible to envisage a licensing scheme for bicyclists and scooterists that relies on a black box app on your mobile, to enforce responsibility; if we want scooters but don't want scooter abuse, then this may be a way forward.
And if it means I don't get nearly mown down as much by bicyclists, that's good too.
posted by Devonian at 8:16 AM on September 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Most road safety works by enforcing responsibility, and where you don't do that, you don't get safety. (Bicyclists who shoot red lights and power across pedestrian crossings on the assumption I can see you and will avoid you, which I can't, get away with it because there are no mechanisms of responsibility.) It is now possible to envisage a licensing scheme for bicyclists and scooterists that relies on a black box app on your mobile, to enforce responsibility; if we want scooters but don't want scooter abuse, then this may be a way forward.
And if it means I don't get nearly mown down as much by bicyclists, that's good too.
posted by Devonian at 8:16 AM on September 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've tried using docked bikeshares a few times, and they're terrible compared to owning a bike
Yes, my town has had docked bikeshare for a couple years. As an avid bike rider/commuter, I can't for the life of me see the appeal. I think they're kind of overpriced, and for the privilege of paying, you get to ride a bike that's virtually bombproof and theftproof. Good for whoever is funding the program. Bad for anyone who actually has to use the clunky beasts. The dock system means you lose one of the greatest advantages of bicycling: flexible destination and parking options. They may as well be human powered rail cars.
Ok so cities should:
1) legalize dockless scooters and bikes
2) only to companies who have paid employees (not contractors) who charge and maintain them
3) and tax said companies and fine them for when they are left blocking pedestrian and disabled access
1) Yes
2) Seems irrelevant
3) As far as I can tell, these companies are taxed as any comparable businesses. I think it would be a better idea to fine users blocking pedestrian and disabled access.
Frankly, allowing these companies to exist contingent on 2 & 3 seems like a way to ensure they never come to fruition. Same with the people in my town who whined that they should have asked for, and gotten official city permission first. Which basically means the idea should have been strangled in infancy.
Look, dockless scooters (and bikes, uber, etc) have a potential to cause undue problem. As far as city officials in a position to give a go/no go to such ventures are concerned, they have to ask themselves a very serious question: How much do you actually want to alleviate traffic problems in your town? And excluding these ventures, what are you capable of doing about it with the resources that you are capable of controlling? Often the answer works out to "leave it be, maybe try to extract some rent from the whole thing, if you can." After several months, the problems with dockless scooters seem relatively minor in my town. Some users are careless. Some non users feel completely justified in sabotage ranging from knocking over parked scooters to outright vandalism. Overall it seems to be a pretty good idea, and a problem only for those whose sense of propriety refuses to allow such a newfangled approach to ambulation.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:25 AM on September 1, 2018
Yes, my town has had docked bikeshare for a couple years. As an avid bike rider/commuter, I can't for the life of me see the appeal. I think they're kind of overpriced, and for the privilege of paying, you get to ride a bike that's virtually bombproof and theftproof. Good for whoever is funding the program. Bad for anyone who actually has to use the clunky beasts. The dock system means you lose one of the greatest advantages of bicycling: flexible destination and parking options. They may as well be human powered rail cars.
Ok so cities should:
1) legalize dockless scooters and bikes
2) only to companies who have paid employees (not contractors) who charge and maintain them
3) and tax said companies and fine them for when they are left blocking pedestrian and disabled access
1) Yes
2) Seems irrelevant
3) As far as I can tell, these companies are taxed as any comparable businesses. I think it would be a better idea to fine users blocking pedestrian and disabled access.
Frankly, allowing these companies to exist contingent on 2 & 3 seems like a way to ensure they never come to fruition. Same with the people in my town who whined that they should have asked for, and gotten official city permission first. Which basically means the idea should have been strangled in infancy.
Look, dockless scooters (and bikes, uber, etc) have a potential to cause undue problem. As far as city officials in a position to give a go/no go to such ventures are concerned, they have to ask themselves a very serious question: How much do you actually want to alleviate traffic problems in your town? And excluding these ventures, what are you capable of doing about it with the resources that you are capable of controlling? Often the answer works out to "leave it be, maybe try to extract some rent from the whole thing, if you can." After several months, the problems with dockless scooters seem relatively minor in my town. Some users are careless. Some non users feel completely justified in sabotage ranging from knocking over parked scooters to outright vandalism. Overall it seems to be a pretty good idea, and a problem only for those whose sense of propriety refuses to allow such a newfangled approach to ambulation.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:25 AM on September 1, 2018
The bikeshare bikes extend an area's walkability when they're free or you can afford them. They should be fully publicly funded. I didn't understand them either until I used them. I get free access to the bike share bikes in Portland through work, and I used it until Uber got involved in managing it earlier this year. I'd be out for a walk to somewhere, see an orange bike, realize that I could run an errand, run the errand, rinse, repeat. At the end of the day, I'd drop one off at the edge of its zone, and from there it was only a couple miles to walk home. Presumably they work similarly for people who use transit.
The other thing I don't like about the electric scooter shares is that they're app-only. I don't use smartphones, and I'm not alone in that. It locks people out.
posted by aniola at 9:29 AM on September 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
The other thing I don't like about the electric scooter shares is that they're app-only. I don't use smartphones, and I'm not alone in that. It locks people out.
posted by aniola at 9:29 AM on September 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yes, my town has had docked bikeshare for a couple years. As an avid bike rider/commuter, I can't for the life of me see the appeal. I think they're kind of overpriced, and for the privilege of paying, you get to ride a bike that's virtually bombproof and theftproof. Good for whoever is funding the program. Bad for anyone who actually has to use the clunky beasts. The dock system means you lose one of the greatest advantages of bicycling: flexible destination and parking options. They may as well be human powered rail cars.
In this and your previous comment ("Yet I have not observed how these dockless scooter enterprises have been anything but overall net positive") you've fallen into a fallacy where you're extrapolating your own observations and preferences and concluding that they must be universal.
On the value of docked Bikeshare systems: I own two bicycles and I ride DC's Capital Bikeshare more than either of them, because the big value for me is in being able to take a spontaneous one way trip. Part of that is aided by the fact that the docks here are really dense downtown. During rush hour in the spring through fall they operate corrals in a few convenient locations downtown so you can always dock a bike within a few blocks of your destination. Admittedly getting dockblocked in residential areas where the docks aren't as closely packed can be annoying, but even at that I've never had to walk more than a quarter mile, and that's in neighborhoods where the nearest Metro stop might be a mile away. Yes, dockless systems can get you closer to your destination (perhaps just outside the door), but in practice, in the area I'm most likely to want a bike for a one way trip, Bikeshare is immensely practical. If I take my own bike I have to consider where I'm going to lock it and what that means for the rest of my day, which could be a pain if my wife said, "hey, wanna meet me after work?"
On the negatives you haven't observed: one example you seemed to scoff at was Venice, CA. I recently visited friends who live and work there. It is difficult to describe the over saturation of scooters there without seeming to exaggerate. On many blocks perpendicular to the beach, there were clumps of a half dozen scooters "parked" on narrow sidewalks outside restaurants. It wasn't just a couple here and there. On a few blocks (presumably identified as good places for people to drop off fully charged scooters) there were sometimes as many as fifteen or twenty scooters. On the path that runs along the beach, there were probably three parked or abandoned scooters for every ten feet of path. Wherever we went in Venice about a third of the scooters we saw were on their sides, either abandoned by careless users or kicked out of the way by annoyed pedestrians.
With quantities more limited in DC than Venice at least, the scooters don't seem as bad as the bikes, if only for the reason that an asshole-parked scooter (perpendicular to the path) blocks less of the sidewalk than an asshole-parked bike. I feel like I've seen more than my share of scooter riders behaving badly, though, like the guy doing circles in a busy intersection (in front of oncoming traffic) and the guy who picked up his two kids from school and then rode into oncoming traffic because the traffic in his direction was too heavy. I saw both of those within ten minutes of each other. As a cyclist I tend to take the lane so I'm sympathetic to the idea that roads should be safer for everybody, but I also think that swooping around into oncoming traffic is maybe a bit more than "taking the lane" warrants. Riding in front of oncoming traffic is just asking for trouble. Anecdotes aren't data, but man, the assholes do make themselves obvious.
And the dockless bikes in DC were kind of a disaster, only in small part due to the limitations imposed on the pilot program. The bikes tended to get abused and vandalized, and they were already less robust than Capital Bikeshare bikes so they were more easily disabled. I saw as many bikes dumped on their sides or parked sideways across paths or sidewalks as I saw actually parked considerately. The front baskets were often mangled; I saw one Mobike with its front fork completely separated from the headset, and a few bikes with busted locks. Two operators flounced out of the market saying they couldn't profit with restricted fleets, but based on the reported losses due to vandalism and abuse it's hard to believe they were trying very hard to maintain the fleets they had (and since those operators announced their pullouts I've still seen their bikes on the streets, which also indicates they didn't really have control over their fleets). The pilot program is being revised again, with a new requirement that bikes must be locked to something and parking restrictions for scooters still TBD. Most of the remaining bike operators have transitioned partly or fully to scooters and I wouldn't be surprised to see all the nonelectric bikes disappear before long.
To be fair to both docked and dockless Bikeshare (and to scooters, for that matter) it's clear that there's a threshold of availability that makes a network viable. The fact that I can say DC's Capital Bikeshare works for me while you complain about the docked system in your city is an indicator that DC is above the threshold but maybe your city isn't. And on the other side while I think Ofo and Mobike didn't show any clear intent to manage their fleets (consider the infamous pictures of abandoned bikes in China) and the bikes barely seemed worth maintaining in the first place, I'm also willing to believe that 400 bikes is indeed too low a number for a viable network. I just wouldn't go this far.
posted by fedward at 11:55 AM on September 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
In this and your previous comment ("Yet I have not observed how these dockless scooter enterprises have been anything but overall net positive") you've fallen into a fallacy where you're extrapolating your own observations and preferences and concluding that they must be universal.
On the value of docked Bikeshare systems: I own two bicycles and I ride DC's Capital Bikeshare more than either of them, because the big value for me is in being able to take a spontaneous one way trip. Part of that is aided by the fact that the docks here are really dense downtown. During rush hour in the spring through fall they operate corrals in a few convenient locations downtown so you can always dock a bike within a few blocks of your destination. Admittedly getting dockblocked in residential areas where the docks aren't as closely packed can be annoying, but even at that I've never had to walk more than a quarter mile, and that's in neighborhoods where the nearest Metro stop might be a mile away. Yes, dockless systems can get you closer to your destination (perhaps just outside the door), but in practice, in the area I'm most likely to want a bike for a one way trip, Bikeshare is immensely practical. If I take my own bike I have to consider where I'm going to lock it and what that means for the rest of my day, which could be a pain if my wife said, "hey, wanna meet me after work?"
On the negatives you haven't observed: one example you seemed to scoff at was Venice, CA. I recently visited friends who live and work there. It is difficult to describe the over saturation of scooters there without seeming to exaggerate. On many blocks perpendicular to the beach, there were clumps of a half dozen scooters "parked" on narrow sidewalks outside restaurants. It wasn't just a couple here and there. On a few blocks (presumably identified as good places for people to drop off fully charged scooters) there were sometimes as many as fifteen or twenty scooters. On the path that runs along the beach, there were probably three parked or abandoned scooters for every ten feet of path. Wherever we went in Venice about a third of the scooters we saw were on their sides, either abandoned by careless users or kicked out of the way by annoyed pedestrians.
With quantities more limited in DC than Venice at least, the scooters don't seem as bad as the bikes, if only for the reason that an asshole-parked scooter (perpendicular to the path) blocks less of the sidewalk than an asshole-parked bike. I feel like I've seen more than my share of scooter riders behaving badly, though, like the guy doing circles in a busy intersection (in front of oncoming traffic) and the guy who picked up his two kids from school and then rode into oncoming traffic because the traffic in his direction was too heavy. I saw both of those within ten minutes of each other. As a cyclist I tend to take the lane so I'm sympathetic to the idea that roads should be safer for everybody, but I also think that swooping around into oncoming traffic is maybe a bit more than "taking the lane" warrants. Riding in front of oncoming traffic is just asking for trouble. Anecdotes aren't data, but man, the assholes do make themselves obvious.
And the dockless bikes in DC were kind of a disaster, only in small part due to the limitations imposed on the pilot program. The bikes tended to get abused and vandalized, and they were already less robust than Capital Bikeshare bikes so they were more easily disabled. I saw as many bikes dumped on their sides or parked sideways across paths or sidewalks as I saw actually parked considerately. The front baskets were often mangled; I saw one Mobike with its front fork completely separated from the headset, and a few bikes with busted locks. Two operators flounced out of the market saying they couldn't profit with restricted fleets, but based on the reported losses due to vandalism and abuse it's hard to believe they were trying very hard to maintain the fleets they had (and since those operators announced their pullouts I've still seen their bikes on the streets, which also indicates they didn't really have control over their fleets). The pilot program is being revised again, with a new requirement that bikes must be locked to something and parking restrictions for scooters still TBD. Most of the remaining bike operators have transitioned partly or fully to scooters and I wouldn't be surprised to see all the nonelectric bikes disappear before long.
To be fair to both docked and dockless Bikeshare (and to scooters, for that matter) it's clear that there's a threshold of availability that makes a network viable. The fact that I can say DC's Capital Bikeshare works for me while you complain about the docked system in your city is an indicator that DC is above the threshold but maybe your city isn't. And on the other side while I think Ofo and Mobike didn't show any clear intent to manage their fleets (consider the infamous pictures of abandoned bikes in China) and the bikes barely seemed worth maintaining in the first place, I'm also willing to believe that 400 bikes is indeed too low a number for a viable network. I just wouldn't go this far.
posted by fedward at 11:55 AM on September 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
I love bike share when I'm traveling. A few years ago I did a work trip to DC and was able to use walking/bikeshare/subway for everything from getting to and from the airport to checking out tourist sites to getting to and from my conference and VRBO every day.
I loved using bikeshare to get around Salem MA as a tourist last spring, a wonderful way to see the town and get a little outside the witch museum bus route.
My hunch is that docked/formal bikeshare aimed at tourists and in high commute areas (subway to office district or to entertainment district) are a lasting model, and dockless/informal scooters are another lasting model.
posted by latkes at 12:32 PM on September 1, 2018
I loved using bikeshare to get around Salem MA as a tourist last spring, a wonderful way to see the town and get a little outside the witch museum bus route.
My hunch is that docked/formal bikeshare aimed at tourists and in high commute areas (subway to office district or to entertainment district) are a lasting model, and dockless/informal scooters are another lasting model.
posted by latkes at 12:32 PM on September 1, 2018
In this and your previous comment ("Yet I have not observed how these dockless scooter enterprises have been anything but overall net positive") you've fallen into a fallacy where you're extrapolating your own observations and preferences and concluding that they must be universal.
You're mistaken. My observation is exactly that: my observation.
On the negatives you haven't observed: one example you seemed to scoff at was Venice, CA. I recently visited friends who live and work there. It is difficult to describe the over saturation of scooters there without seeming to exaggerate.
Once again, I think you're mistaken. I'm keenly aware of Venice. I lived there for many years, and currently live a couple miles away in Santa Monica.
If you've visited, it's difficult to describe the over saturation of cars at Venice. On a weekend like this, a resident of Venice basically plans to hunker down the whole time, or leave town until Monday evening. Why? Because Venice is an extremely popular weekend tourist spot. With very limited parking. There is no casual driving done there. It will see hundreds of thousands of cars, motorcycles, bicycles, scooters, skateboards, pedestrians, all trolling about searching for a good place to anchor, see what there is to be seen. It's plainly obvious why so many scooters end up there. This isn't quite an illustration of a problem so much as the result of a really attractive solution. Before scooters, bikeshare, etc, it was not uncommon for people to park nearly a mile away to visit Venice. It's hardly surprising that it ends up an end point for scooters, the same way bikeshares seem to migrate downhill, rarely uphill.
Santa Monica is also a huge tourist spot with a similar dynamic. Infrastructure favors automobiles somewhat, and it's also a terminus for the Expo Line. Even so, it's effectively a hub for scooters.
And yet, life goes on. Interestingly, Venice traditionally attracted residents precisely because of its free-for-all circus atmosphere. Gentrification has turned it from a arty working class place into a very trendy, very expensive place with less tolerance for the riffraff who come to get their ya yas out. Maybe they'll be able to tame the boardwalk after all and put the brakes on these disrupters after all.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:10 PM on September 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
You're mistaken. My observation is exactly that: my observation.
On the negatives you haven't observed: one example you seemed to scoff at was Venice, CA. I recently visited friends who live and work there. It is difficult to describe the over saturation of scooters there without seeming to exaggerate.
Once again, I think you're mistaken. I'm keenly aware of Venice. I lived there for many years, and currently live a couple miles away in Santa Monica.
If you've visited, it's difficult to describe the over saturation of cars at Venice. On a weekend like this, a resident of Venice basically plans to hunker down the whole time, or leave town until Monday evening. Why? Because Venice is an extremely popular weekend tourist spot. With very limited parking. There is no casual driving done there. It will see hundreds of thousands of cars, motorcycles, bicycles, scooters, skateboards, pedestrians, all trolling about searching for a good place to anchor, see what there is to be seen. It's plainly obvious why so many scooters end up there. This isn't quite an illustration of a problem so much as the result of a really attractive solution. Before scooters, bikeshare, etc, it was not uncommon for people to park nearly a mile away to visit Venice. It's hardly surprising that it ends up an end point for scooters, the same way bikeshares seem to migrate downhill, rarely uphill.
Santa Monica is also a huge tourist spot with a similar dynamic. Infrastructure favors automobiles somewhat, and it's also a terminus for the Expo Line. Even so, it's effectively a hub for scooters.
And yet, life goes on. Interestingly, Venice traditionally attracted residents precisely because of its free-for-all circus atmosphere. Gentrification has turned it from a arty working class place into a very trendy, very expensive place with less tolerance for the riffraff who come to get their ya yas out. Maybe they'll be able to tame the boardwalk after all and put the brakes on these disrupters after all.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:10 PM on September 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Datapoint: in downtown DC, where I live, I see at least several scooter users a day and the vast majority of scooter users I see are operating at reasonable speeds in the (generally non-protected) bike lanes. They do stop for things like red lights, at least as often as bike riders do. I have yet to see a single collision or fall. Most are parked in places that are square with bike racks or at least reasonably out of the way. I absolutely believe those things do happen, but the bad actors don't constitute the majority of the user base.
None of that is as true for cars, or for spandex bike bros - in the same time period, I've been endangered as a pedestrian and/or biker by both groups several times.
posted by mosst at 7:13 AM on September 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
None of that is as true for cars, or for spandex bike bros - in the same time period, I've been endangered as a pedestrian and/or biker by both groups several times.
posted by mosst at 7:13 AM on September 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Let’s Rethink What a ‘Bike Lane’ Is
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:03 PM on September 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:03 PM on September 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
The other thing I don't like about the electric scooter shares is that they're app-only
This is a gripe with all of them, although with urban adult smart phone ownership around 83% in the US, it's probably not an enormous issue.
Still, making it phone driven almost certainly blocks access to some of those who might most stand to benefit from these things.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:23 AM on September 6, 2018
This is a gripe with all of them, although with urban adult smart phone ownership around 83% in the US, it's probably not an enormous issue.
Still, making it phone driven almost certainly blocks access to some of those who might most stand to benefit from these things.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:23 AM on September 6, 2018
Further DC data point: I'm a daily bike commuter, twelve miles round trip from Takoma Park to Dupont Circle. The worst abuses of the scooters I've seen have been around the mall and in Columbia Heights, but I haven't really seen anything worse than what happens with bikes.
Not to say that both don't do stupid things - the city is pretty constantly beset groups of teenage boys being reckless assholes, but . . . that's kinda what teenage boys do.
I see cars, particularly cabs and "rideshare" do homicidally-negligent or actually homicidal shit every day.
I still predict the scooters dropping to background noise when it gets cold.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:30 AM on September 6, 2018
Not to say that both don't do stupid things - the city is pretty constantly beset groups of teenage boys being reckless assholes, but . . . that's kinda what teenage boys do.
I see cars, particularly cabs and "rideshare" do homicidally-negligent or actually homicidal shit every day.
I still predict the scooters dropping to background noise when it gets cold.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:30 AM on September 6, 2018
Radio New Zealand—
Cameron Swanson [of Lime]: e-scooters poised to hit our streetsposted by XMLicious at 3:45 AM on September 23, 2018
Alison Griswold: Americans divided over e-scooters
I saw my first dumped scooter yesterday - in a dense commercial and residential area with occasional trees, where there's never anything blocking the sidewalk, some idiot had just dropped and left their actually fairly large (they look smaller in use) scooter such that it blocked half the sidewalk and would have made things difficult though not impossible for a wheelchair user or someone with a stroller. It was the most bizarre thing - it was like a little Magritte on the sidewalk.
I am absolutely in sympathy with the complaints about these things now, because one of them in a dense area was clearly, significantly inconvenient, and a lot of them would quickly make this part of town impassasble.
Also, the frankly bad, selfish example it gives - it's a poor tone to set for city life. I could not help but picture some spoiled, affluent young man scooting along, then deciding to drop his scooter halfway across a busy sidewalk because he was too important to bother leaving it somewhere better. This particular street* has bars, a fancy bike shop, a fancy skate shop and IIRC a headshop, so it's not a stretch to envision the customer. It made me angry.
*It's hideous, a part of town that was relatively well off as long as I've lived here that has been rebuilt with hideous insta-lofts and tacky chains/semi-chains to house the influx of tech and banking money that we've been cursed with. I used to be over here all the time because there used to be bookstores and a couple of other non-chain places worth going. Now I'm there a couple of times a year. Anyway, the character of the street has been utterly destroyed, the buildings are entirely homogeneous and ugly, it's awful.
posted by Frowner at 5:57 AM on September 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
I am absolutely in sympathy with the complaints about these things now, because one of them in a dense area was clearly, significantly inconvenient, and a lot of them would quickly make this part of town impassasble.
Also, the frankly bad, selfish example it gives - it's a poor tone to set for city life. I could not help but picture some spoiled, affluent young man scooting along, then deciding to drop his scooter halfway across a busy sidewalk because he was too important to bother leaving it somewhere better. This particular street* has bars, a fancy bike shop, a fancy skate shop and IIRC a headshop, so it's not a stretch to envision the customer. It made me angry.
*It's hideous, a part of town that was relatively well off as long as I've lived here that has been rebuilt with hideous insta-lofts and tacky chains/semi-chains to house the influx of tech and banking money that we've been cursed with. I used to be over here all the time because there used to be bookstores and a couple of other non-chain places worth going. Now I'm there a couple of times a year. Anyway, the character of the street has been utterly destroyed, the buildings are entirely homogeneous and ugly, it's awful.
posted by Frowner at 5:57 AM on September 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
What keeps car drivers from parking on the sidewalk, running stop signs, and generally being inconsiderate and unsafe? A big part of it is that there are ** a lot ** of police resources devoted to traffic enforcement, and real, meaningful penalties for violators, along with substantial public information campaigns. There’s no reason there could not be a similar enforcement emphasis for safer, more environmentally friendly vehicles that made them less of a nuisance. As it stands, the enforcement of traffic laws for autos amounts to yet another shadow subsidy for our most deadly, most energy sucking form of transportation.
posted by chrchr at 5:28 PM on September 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 5:28 PM on September 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
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posted by whm at 6:58 PM on August 30, 2018 [22 favorites]