Scott Galloway, 2018 Code Commerce
October 3, 2018 1:59 AM Subscribe
NYU professor Scott Galloway speaks at the 2018 Code Conference and calls again for the breakup of big tech (Amazon, Facebook, Google) with lots of data and insight. Galloway predicted the Amazon acquisition of Whole Foods weeks before it happened.
Ironically, it's probably more likely that support to break them up would come from the right than the left right now.
posted by octothorpe at 3:58 AM on October 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 3:58 AM on October 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
> probably more likely that support to break them up would come from the right
Galloway addresses this in the video. He's happy if Trump is successful in breaking up big tech but he doesn't think that will happen because Trump is more focused on Bezos owning the Washington Post (and the Post's coverage of the Trump presidency) than the effects of Amazon on US retail/jobs.
posted by gen at 4:02 AM on October 3, 2018
Galloway addresses this in the video. He's happy if Trump is successful in breaking up big tech but he doesn't think that will happen because Trump is more focused on Bezos owning the Washington Post (and the Post's coverage of the Trump presidency) than the effects of Amazon on US retail/jobs.
posted by gen at 4:02 AM on October 3, 2018
Galloway addresses this in the video.
Well yeah, probably not going to watch a 45 minute video. I'll have to wait for the transcript.
posted by octothorpe at 4:13 AM on October 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
Well yeah, probably not going to watch a 45 minute video. I'll have to wait for the transcript.
posted by octothorpe at 4:13 AM on October 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
So I assume everyone who watches these kinds of talks does so at 2x speed. Click the gear in the bottom left corner on YouTube and change the playback speed.
posted by DoveBrown at 5:20 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by DoveBrown at 5:20 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
2x speed
That's quite fun, but does not make the fact that his headset mic looks like the world's smallest toothbrush moustache any less distracting, particularly when he starts waving his arm around and talking about World War 2.
posted by sfenders at 5:47 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's quite fun, but does not make the fact that his headset mic looks like the world's smallest toothbrush moustache any less distracting, particularly when he starts waving his arm around and talking about World War 2.
posted by sfenders at 5:47 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Maybe I missed this in the video but I've yet to hear an answer to the following:
What does a broken-up Facebook look like? Amazon? Google?
Why will this end any differently than the Bell break-up, where the babies have already re-merged back into Ma?
posted by PMdixon at 6:37 AM on October 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
What does a broken-up Facebook look like? Amazon? Google?
Why will this end any differently than the Bell break-up, where the babies have already re-merged back into Ma?
posted by PMdixon at 6:37 AM on October 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
> What does a broken-up Facebook look like? Amazon? Google?
Galloway does not have a plan for that, afaik.
posted by gen at 6:51 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Galloway does not have a plan for that, afaik.
posted by gen at 6:51 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Rather than breaking them up, it's probably quicker at this point to do everything possible to encourage mergers and acquisitions (assuming everything possible isn't already being done) and wait a few years until one giant multinational conglomerate controls effectively everything. When there's only one of them to deal with and no more pretense of competition or market forces for it to hide behind, it will be more easily regulated, abolished, nationalized, subjugated, enshrined in the constitution, given full sovereignty, or whatever the people desire.
posted by sfenders at 7:09 AM on October 3, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by sfenders at 7:09 AM on October 3, 2018 [11 favorites]
came here to post “s/breakup/nationalize/g”, was glad that sfenders basically beat me to it.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 7:20 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 7:20 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Amazon will buy a continent and relocate before it gets nationalized. And "whatever the people desire" will be completely irrelevant by that point because it will have way too much power. This is a scale of corporate power that the world has never seen, and if people had a clue about the implications they'd be fighting tooth and nail to make sure that we never see it play out to completion.
They have microphones in your house. They know what you eat. They host most of your information and control the flow of data around the world. This is not conspiracy theory, this is reality. Amazon is evil.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:26 AM on October 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
They have microphones in your house. They know what you eat. They host most of your information and control the flow of data around the world. This is not conspiracy theory, this is reality. Amazon is evil.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:26 AM on October 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
(I think The Thing That Facebook Is is too dangerous to exist either under capital or state control but I'm not sure how to articulate what that The Thing is specifically enough to ban it - individually-targeted-by-centralized-systems content aggregation and dissemination?)
posted by PMdixon at 7:30 AM on October 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by PMdixon at 7:30 AM on October 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
people had a clue about the implications they'd be fighting tooth and nail to make sure that we never see it play out to completion.
Lol. One of the biggest takeaways for me from "Neoreaction: A Basilisk" is that the idea that "if only the people knew everything would be different" is the one thing that every conspiracy theorist believes and is something that reality has disproved over and over. If people were willing and able to fight and do damage to these systems they already would be - children in cages! The NSA recording everything! The current President! Equifax's breach! Etc. Therefore they're some combination of unwilling and unable.
This was one of the things that "Sorry to Bother You" got dead on correct. People already know Shit Is Fucked. Giving them more details about the nature of the fuckedness is not going to change their range of possible responses, in and of itself.
posted by PMdixon at 7:36 AM on October 3, 2018 [13 favorites]
Lol. One of the biggest takeaways for me from "Neoreaction: A Basilisk" is that the idea that "if only the people knew everything would be different" is the one thing that every conspiracy theorist believes and is something that reality has disproved over and over. If people were willing and able to fight and do damage to these systems they already would be - children in cages! The NSA recording everything! The current President! Equifax's breach! Etc. Therefore they're some combination of unwilling and unable.
This was one of the things that "Sorry to Bother You" got dead on correct. People already know Shit Is Fucked. Giving them more details about the nature of the fuckedness is not going to change their range of possible responses, in and of itself.
posted by PMdixon at 7:36 AM on October 3, 2018 [13 favorites]
I dunno though, Amazon is by far the most effective organisation I've ever dealt with over any competitor or bank or government department or airline. I can't think of a good reason not to let them run all the things, at least while Bezos is still at the helm and not outright price gouging. Their market share is their reward for being good at what they do.
Facebook I would happily break into a several mini facebooks.
Breaking up Apple makes no sense at all, the mobile phone market has plenty competition. Apple just make nice phones people want.
Galloway's weekly newsletter and blog is a must, mainly because he often just goes "but remember none of this matters, love your parents, your kids and try and have a happy life as best you can"
posted by Damienmce at 7:41 AM on October 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Facebook I would happily break into a several mini facebooks.
Breaking up Apple makes no sense at all, the mobile phone market has plenty competition. Apple just make nice phones people want.
Galloway's weekly newsletter and blog is a must, mainly because he often just goes "but remember none of this matters, love your parents, your kids and try and have a happy life as best you can"
posted by Damienmce at 7:41 AM on October 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
> I dunno though, Amazon is by far the most effective organisation I've ever dealt with over any competitor or bank or government department or airline. I can't think of a good reason not to let them run all the things, at least while Bezos is still at the helm and not outright price gouging. Their market share is their reward for being good at what they do.
guess how I know you’ve never worked for amazon in any capacity.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 7:54 AM on October 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
guess how I know you’ve never worked for amazon in any capacity.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 7:54 AM on October 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
Ironically, it's probably more likely that support to break them up would come from the right than the left right now.
Oh, trust me, the actual left can't wait to see these corporations broken apart. There is, however, a contingent of centrist liberals who've started defending Amazon and Google just because Trump wants to break them up. It drives me nuts, but some people just have no firm ideological grounding beyond spite for the enemy.
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 8:00 AM on October 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
Oh, trust me, the actual left can't wait to see these corporations broken apart. There is, however, a contingent of centrist liberals who've started defending Amazon and Google just because Trump wants to break them up. It drives me nuts, but some people just have no firm ideological grounding beyond spite for the enemy.
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 8:00 AM on October 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure that breaking them up would do as much good as some people think. After all, it only took AT&T what, 20 years to reform? Do we really have that much more competitive of a telecom market than we did before the Baby Bells?
I'm all for anti-trust attempts, but I think that just breaking up something like Google wouldn't be enough. You'd have to stop it from doing the Terminator thing and re-forming...
posted by -1 at 8:03 AM on October 3, 2018
I'm all for anti-trust attempts, but I think that just breaking up something like Google wouldn't be enough. You'd have to stop it from doing the Terminator thing and re-forming...
posted by -1 at 8:03 AM on October 3, 2018
Facebook I would happily break into a several mini facebooks
Can you help me understand what a "mini Facebook" is?
posted by PMdixon at 8:26 AM on October 3, 2018
Can you help me understand what a "mini Facebook" is?
posted by PMdixon at 8:26 AM on October 3, 2018
The anti-trust remedies for Big Tech are going to vary. For Amazon, you could break it up by service line (splitting off AWS and advertising from retail and barring successors from doing sales), vertical (requiring that warehousing and distribution be separately owned from retailing), or even a market share cap that would involve some regional or other creation of "baby" Amazons, regionally or alphabetical by last name of current customers, and making them compete against each other.
posted by MattD at 8:27 AM on October 3, 2018
posted by MattD at 8:27 AM on October 3, 2018
I'm not sure that breaking them up would do as much good as some people think. After all, it only took AT&T what, 20 years to reform?
Yes, but it wasn't some natural working of the universe that led to the reformation. It was a concerted effort by Ed Whitacre, CEO of Southwestern Bell Corporation and later AT&T who in the 90s and 2000s stitched the AT&T empire back together, aided by the business-friendly atmosphere of the Clinton-Bush years. Whitacre successfully spun his campaign as one of free trade and business growth. Tim Wu discusses this process in The Master Switch: The Rise and Fall of Information Empires, which is an excellent overview of the history (and potential future) of telecommunications technologies in America.
A broken monopoly doesn't have to inevitably reform. Standard Oil didn't, though that had its own issues. It requires future administrations to maintain the will to keep the empires broken up, though.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:28 AM on October 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yes, but it wasn't some natural working of the universe that led to the reformation. It was a concerted effort by Ed Whitacre, CEO of Southwestern Bell Corporation and later AT&T who in the 90s and 2000s stitched the AT&T empire back together, aided by the business-friendly atmosphere of the Clinton-Bush years. Whitacre successfully spun his campaign as one of free trade and business growth. Tim Wu discusses this process in The Master Switch: The Rise and Fall of Information Empires, which is an excellent overview of the history (and potential future) of telecommunications technologies in America.
A broken monopoly doesn't have to inevitably reform. Standard Oil didn't, though that had its own issues. It requires future administrations to maintain the will to keep the empires broken up, though.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:28 AM on October 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
> Can you help me understand what a "mini Facebook" is?
well see there’s multiple facebook instances that are all federated with each other, bear with me, it’s actually super simple and intuitive and not overly complex at all, and each instance has its own moderation standards but you can see posts from other instances and instead of a regular user name your name is yourname@your instance wait wait where are you going come back
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 8:29 AM on October 3, 2018 [10 favorites]
well see there’s multiple facebook instances that are all federated with each other, bear with me, it’s actually super simple and intuitive and not overly complex at all, and each instance has its own moderation standards but you can see posts from other instances and instead of a regular user name your name is yourname@your instance wait wait where are you going come back
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 8:29 AM on October 3, 2018 [10 favorites]
Facebook family, relationship updates and baby pictures only.
Facebook cats, self-explanatory. The second-most-profitable one.
Facebook politics, run out of a server farm in Siberia. This will be the most profitable because they will charge you to reply.
Facebook video/watch, filing chapter 11 in 2021.
Facebook sales, to be purchased by Craigslist for $250 in a parking lot in 2023.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:31 AM on October 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
Facebook cats, self-explanatory. The second-most-profitable one.
Facebook politics, run out of a server farm in Siberia. This will be the most profitable because they will charge you to reply.
Facebook video/watch, filing chapter 11 in 2021.
Facebook sales, to be purchased by Craigslist for $250 in a parking lot in 2023.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:31 AM on October 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
A broken monopoly doesn't have to inevitably reform. Standard Oil didn't, though that had its own issues.
What do you call ExxonMobil?
posted by PMdixon at 8:34 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
What do you call ExxonMobil?
posted by PMdixon at 8:34 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
So while anything is possible it'll be hard to break up Google considering that it stores all its source code in a single repository.
People think of Google as all these separate products like ads, search, gmail, docs, compute engine, etc but really google is
- data center ops
- a bunch of source code
- ad sales people
- software developers
People think "oh well just make gmail and ads separate companies." Nope. That's not how it works. Breaking up google would be separating source code into one company and ad sales into another company which is like divorcing your wife by letting one person get all the lungs and another person get all the livers.
But like I said, perhaps I lack imagination, anything is possible.
posted by GuyZero at 9:27 AM on October 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
People think of Google as all these separate products like ads, search, gmail, docs, compute engine, etc but really google is
- data center ops
- a bunch of source code
- ad sales people
- software developers
People think "oh well just make gmail and ads separate companies." Nope. That's not how it works. Breaking up google would be separating source code into one company and ad sales into another company which is like divorcing your wife by letting one person get all the lungs and another person get all the livers.
But like I said, perhaps I lack imagination, anything is possible.
posted by GuyZero at 9:27 AM on October 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't see why they couldn't break Google up into multiple companies by product, and then just give each new company a copy of the full repo to then diverge from, OR do the work to fork the repo into smaller self-contained repos for each product.
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 9:32 AM on October 3, 2018
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 9:32 AM on October 3, 2018
My fantasy is to break up all these mega companies (tech, banking, media etc) by a rule that if your company reaches/directly affects the lives of one million people or more (or whatever number = too big to fail) then it becomes a utility, publicly owned and run in the public interest. So if they want to stay profit-seeking companies run for some other interest, they need to split up into however many smaller companies would be needed, and it's on them to figure it out.
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:37 AM on October 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:37 AM on October 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
just give each new company a copy of the full repo
datacenters are also centrally managed and shared.
It would be impractical to give gmail us-west and ads us-east and cloud hosting europe.
But sure, it could be done.
posted by GuyZero at 9:38 AM on October 3, 2018
datacenters are also centrally managed and shared.
It would be impractical to give gmail us-west and ads us-east and cloud hosting europe.
But sure, it could be done.
posted by GuyZero at 9:38 AM on October 3, 2018
Sounds like nationalizing them is the more sensible route.
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 9:40 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 9:40 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
first though we have to overthrow the bourgeois state and institute a dictatorship of the proletariat.
which probably isn’t feasible. like don’t get me wrong, I’m down. I’m totally totally down. I’m so down I’m hanging out by the enemy gate. but it’s probably not feasible.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:44 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
which probably isn’t feasible. like don’t get me wrong, I’m down. I’m totally totally down. I’m so down I’m hanging out by the enemy gate. but it’s probably not feasible.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:44 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sounds like nationalizing them is the more sensible route.
So - these corporate entities that we are very concerned about having all this information on us, should now be operated by governments? Not sure I want that either. ... Maybe that was the plan in the first place (rumours of CIA/NSA investment in early Facebook)...
posted by jkaczor at 10:09 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
So - these corporate entities that we are very concerned about having all this information on us, should now be operated by governments? Not sure I want that either. ... Maybe that was the plan in the first place (rumours of CIA/NSA investment in early Facebook)...
posted by jkaczor at 10:09 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
The tech companies are already willing to jump into the arms of conservatives after being accused of having bias against them, I doubt they’re gonna nationalize after the fascists basically control them.
posted by gucci mane at 10:28 AM on October 3, 2018
posted by gucci mane at 10:28 AM on October 3, 2018
Sounds like nationalizing them is the more sensible route.
So Trump can control them?
posted by octothorpe at 10:53 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
So Trump can control them?
posted by octothorpe at 10:53 AM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
What do you call ExxonMobil?
One piece of the Standard Oil empire out of many. Chevron, Marathon Petroleum, and BP (via a takeover of Standard Oil of Ohio) are others.
I didn't say or imply that the pieces were small pieces, just that Standard Oil hasn't yet reformed, though admittedly there has been a degree of reconsolidation. It was so big that even its pieces are titans in themselves.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:14 AM on October 3, 2018
One piece of the Standard Oil empire out of many. Chevron, Marathon Petroleum, and BP (via a takeover of Standard Oil of Ohio) are others.
I didn't say or imply that the pieces were small pieces, just that Standard Oil hasn't yet reformed, though admittedly there has been a degree of reconsolidation. It was so big that even its pieces are titans in themselves.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:14 AM on October 3, 2018
So Trump can control them?
He controls the nuclear arsenal. He can choose to end multicellular life on the planet. As powerful as the tech giants are I don't think they're capable of quite that impact.
(Trump also controls the SSA and the IRS. If you want to say "bad people have taken over governments in the past and present and likely will in the future therefore anarchism," have fun but be honest about it.)
posted by PMdixon at 1:25 PM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
He controls the nuclear arsenal. He can choose to end multicellular life on the planet. As powerful as the tech giants are I don't think they're capable of quite that impact.
(Trump also controls the SSA and the IRS. If you want to say "bad people have taken over governments in the past and present and likely will in the future therefore anarchism," have fun but be honest about it.)
posted by PMdixon at 1:25 PM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
So I assume everyone who watches these kinds of talks does so at 2x speed.
Please enjoy this free video and these other time saving features brought to you by the company you all want to break up or nationalize.
posted by fremen at 6:51 PM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Please enjoy this free video and these other time saving features brought to you by the company you all want to break up or nationalize.
posted by fremen at 6:51 PM on October 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Even a broken clock is right twice a day (emphasis mine):
“Everyone looks to Amazon for leadership and I’ve been predicting they were going to go into stores for five years,” Galloway said on the podcast. “I can’t even really legitimately say I’m right, because they don’t have a lot of stores yet. They haven’t found a model that works for them yet.”
posted by pwnguin at 7:19 PM on October 3, 2018
“Everyone looks to Amazon for leadership and I’ve been predicting they were going to go into stores for five years,” Galloway said on the podcast. “I can’t even really legitimately say I’m right, because they don’t have a lot of stores yet. They haven’t found a model that works for them yet.”
posted by pwnguin at 7:19 PM on October 3, 2018
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