The Britons who joined David Koresh

November 3, 2018 9:47 AM

Of the 70+ people who died during the siege of the Branch Davidian compound outside Waco, Texas, in 1993, 24 were British. The eight-part BBC podcast "End of Days" chronicles David Koresh's efforts to recruit followers in England, and the lives of those who crossed the Atlantic to join him at his New Mount Carmel Center.
posted by woofferton (13 comments total)

"Classic American story of a cult gone wrong."

The British astonishment at the streak of religious wackiness that runs through American culture always sets my teeth on edge.  Where the hell do they think we got it?  It brings to mind those cheesy 80s anti-drug ads. "…I learned it from you!"

A religious movement develops in England, radical and threatening enough to be suppressed.  A significant percentage of them end up leaving for the New World.  One one religious nutjob and faction back in England actually manages to overthrow the monarchy and take over the entire nation.  We're all still dealing with the consequences of the religious movement that lead to the English Civil War over 300 years later, yet people find history boring.  The mind reels.

Podcast is interesting.  Waco feels like one of those subjects we agree not to talk about, so it's nice to hear something about how it developed, even if it's being cast as an American threat that "reaches deep into more English homes."
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 10:38 AM on November 3, 2018 [15 favorites]

Waco feels like one of those subjects we agree not to talk about...

Definitely.

In some ways, Waco was the ur event that sparked the then-fringe-element of the citizenry that believed you needed to arm yourselves because the government was coming to get you.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:12 AM on November 3, 2018

And now I'm listening to Marshall Applewhite talking and man... The 90s were some wild times.

Also, Marshall Applewhite is the Mr. Rogers of Suicide Cults.

Getting back to UK + Waco...

Boards of Canada, a Scottish group, made a couple works influenced by Davidians: Geogaddi & Beautiful Place Out in the Country.

Check it out if you've never heard it.
posted by symbioid at 11:46 AM on November 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

Where the hell do they think we got it?

It’s not about where you got it, it’s about what you did with it.
posted by Segundus at 1:18 PM on November 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

It’s not about where you got it, it’s about what you did with it.

You do realize that the countries of Ireland, Northern Ireland, Australia and Canada have some history regarding this w/r/t England. I also hope you have been paying attention to the posts about religion and boarding schools for native/aboriginal peoples. I very much hope that we don't need to turn this into Colonialism 101.
posted by fraula at 2:08 PM on November 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

The awesome UK band The Indelicates have a concept album about Waco, David Koresh Superstar
posted by JonB at 2:18 PM on November 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

Waco was the ur event that sparked the then-fringe-element…

Yeah, this and Ruby Ridge the year before were like a two-stage rocket that launched the whole damn movement of right-wing idiots that lead directly to the Oklahoma City Bombing and all the white terrorists that have followed.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 2:34 PM on November 3, 2018 [3 favorites]

"Waco was the ur event that sparked the then-fringe-element…"

Not entirely unreasonably. I mean, the government's behavior at Waco was reprehensible. You couldn't have written a better "evil government" script if you tried. Likewise Ruby Ridge, where they killed a kid's dog and then shot the kid when he got upset. I don't like taking the side of the far-right fringe, but it's really hard taking the side of overreaching militarized police.
posted by kevinbelt at 5:26 PM on November 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

David Koresh is fascinating. He's fascinating for the people he was able to dupe and the way he was able to do it, and the way that dynamic grew and changed as the situation escalated. He's fascinated for the monster he started as and the monster he became. The story makes such a wonderful miniature analogy for so many social movements in history, from Nazism to ecclesiastic corruption throughout the ages to Trumpism to Stalin-ism and on and on. The greed, lust, fear, hero worship soup that works as the engine for so much of social movement is broken down to such a small cast of characters that it's almost understandable.

There's still a great work of art and social critique waiting to made from the story. I was deeply bummed getting to the end of Updike's In the Beauty of the Lillies, and realizing he didn't actually have much to say about it. The power an mystery and character just wern't captured. We need a Jesus Christ Superstar version, maybe. Maybe there's a good one out there, but we might have to write it ourselves, mefites.
posted by es_de_bah at 5:31 PM on November 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

Waco and Ruby Ridge are covered by Jon Ronson in Them: Adventures With Extremists, which is due a re-read, I think. It was written alongside a TV series called Secret Rulers of the World and the Ruby Ridge episode is here.

Whatever my extensive disagreements with Koresh and his followers, they weren't a suicide cult. They didn't commit suicide any more than anyone else killed by the police committed suicide.
posted by Grangousier at 2:16 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

This has been terrifying to listen to, and I'm on Episode 5. The witness Livingston Fagin sounds to my autistic mind, Autistic and a minority. I've started to form the impression that many of the female adherents may also have been ASD. The sense of exceptionalism, the abuse we seen routinely of malignant narcissists over people with ASD or people with Intellectual disability particularly undiagnosed people with ASD & ID will come to be understood as the basis of many nihilistic cults in the future. We've reared a strong Aspie son and only through my NT spouse have we been able to alert him to these types of abuse.

I honestly look at things like Qanon and many other conspiracy theorists through this lens now.

thanks os much for this. Utterly grim hearing men and women 'give' their young girls to be abused in the name of belief.
posted by kairab at 7:27 AM on November 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

also further on it is quite clear that David Koresh was the ultimate incel.......
posted by kairab at 7:43 AM on November 4, 2018

Not entirely unreasonably. I mean, the government's behavior at Waco was reprehensible. You couldn't have written a better "evil government" script if you tried. Likewise Ruby Ridge, where they killed a kid's dog and then shot the kid when he got upset. I don't like taking the side of the far-right fringe, but it's really hard taking the side of overreaching militarized police.

It's unreasonable if you consider just how comfortable right wing america was with the police dropping bombs on a Philadelphia city block in 1985.

They don't give a shit about the militarization of police. They just give throw fits about being subject to the force of law themselves.
posted by srboisvert at 12:30 PM on November 4, 2018 [2 favorites]