Tulsa Offers Cash to Attract New Residents
December 29, 2018 12:16 PM Subscribe
From CityLab by Sarah Holder, NOV 16, 2018.
Stop Complaining About Your Rent and Move to Tulsa, Suggests Tulsa
Starting this week, remote workers from all over the country can apply to move to Tulsa (Oklahoma) in exchange for $10,000 in cash, a housing stipend for a fully-furnished apartment in a building downtown, and a desk at a local co-working space. The program, called Tulsa Remote, is being fully funded by the George Kaiser Family Foundation, a Tulsa-based philanthropy ..., and was planned with the city’s cooperation.
Program applicants must be over 18, eligible to work in the United States, and able to move to Tulsa within six months. They have to come from outside Tulsa County, and be doing full-time remote work for a company that’s based elsewhere, or be self-employed. And to get all the cash, they have to stay the full year.
... Tulsa is not the only region that’s identified this growing fleet of non-office-bound employees as a valuable community asset. The project is the latest in a string of tactics aimed at incentivizing workers to move away from ever-more pricey superstar cities and into less-booming towns.
In May, Vermont passed legislation that lets it offer $10,000 in tax breaks to remote workers who live there for two years, which it will start giving out this January. In October, Maine expanded a program that offers student loan forgiveness to certain recent graduates who choose to live and work (not only remotely) in the state. Both are efforts to stymie brain drain and population loss as the regions’ residents age. Similarly, Montana invites people who grew up in the state but have since moved to “Come Home to Hunt” each hunting season, giving them reduced license prices in the hopes that they’ll remember how nice their hometown was.
Program applicants must be over 18, eligible to work in the United States, and able to move to Tulsa within six months. They have to come from outside Tulsa County, and be doing full-time remote work for a company that’s based elsewhere, or be self-employed. And to get all the cash, they have to stay the full year.
... Tulsa is not the only region that’s identified this growing fleet of non-office-bound employees as a valuable community asset. The project is the latest in a string of tactics aimed at incentivizing workers to move away from ever-more pricey superstar cities and into less-booming towns.
In May, Vermont passed legislation that lets it offer $10,000 in tax breaks to remote workers who live there for two years, which it will start giving out this January. In October, Maine expanded a program that offers student loan forgiveness to certain recent graduates who choose to live and work (not only remotely) in the state. Both are efforts to stymie brain drain and population loss as the regions’ residents age. Similarly, Montana invites people who grew up in the state but have since moved to “Come Home to Hunt” each hunting season, giving them reduced license prices in the hopes that they’ll remember how nice their hometown was.
My personal experiences there are over two decades old, but there are worse places to live.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:36 PM on December 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:36 PM on December 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Welcome to Tulsa: There are worse places to live.
posted by notyou at 12:44 PM on December 29, 2018 [64 favorites]
posted by notyou at 12:44 PM on December 29, 2018 [64 favorites]
If nothing else, you can see the original Surrey with the Fringe on Top.
posted by condour75 at 12:45 PM on December 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by condour75 at 12:45 PM on December 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
If anyone reads TFA, it starts by quoting a guy from New York (City, I think) who is praising Tulsa but he does work for the foundation that is paying people who qualify so he is not an entirely disinterested party. It may make sense for the people who are accepted to move, particularly if they are able to help create a sense of community for themselves. But it seems pretty clear that nobody actually knows if these kind of programs ultimately make the city or region healthier and more stable.
All I know is that many places are too damn expensive (greetings former home of SF Bay Area) and people need alternatives beyond small apartments or tiny homes. The phrase affordable homes is an oxymoron in all the places I have ever wanted to live.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:50 PM on December 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
All I know is that many places are too damn expensive (greetings former home of SF Bay Area) and people need alternatives beyond small apartments or tiny homes. The phrase affordable homes is an oxymoron in all the places I have ever wanted to live.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:50 PM on December 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Tulsa Remote application
More about George Kaiser
posted by bunderful at 12:58 PM on December 29, 2018
More about George Kaiser
posted by bunderful at 12:58 PM on December 29, 2018
In thinking about why I live in the Bay Area and am probably not going to move away, the reasons are:
1. I will need another relocation bonus to get me out of here like the one that got me here
2. There's good doctors & hospitals around here
3. I'd rather live in a blue state where civil rights are slightly less precarious.
But in order to get 2 & 3 you need an influx of young people, and what better way to create that than with the 1st thing. I hope it works out for them.
posted by bleep at 12:59 PM on December 29, 2018 [25 favorites]
1. I will need another relocation bonus to get me out of here like the one that got me here
2. There's good doctors & hospitals around here
3. I'd rather live in a blue state where civil rights are slightly less precarious.
But in order to get 2 & 3 you need an influx of young people, and what better way to create that than with the 1st thing. I hope it works out for them.
posted by bleep at 12:59 PM on December 29, 2018 [25 favorites]
"So, I'm a married gay man. Can my husband apply separately or is there 'per family' limit?"
posted by fatbird at 1:11 PM on December 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by fatbird at 1:11 PM on December 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
It's going to take way more than 10 Grand to get me to move to Oklahoma...
I had relatives who lived in Oklahoma...
posted by Windopaene at 1:11 PM on December 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
I had relatives who lived in Oklahoma...
posted by Windopaene at 1:11 PM on December 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
It feels like it's especially shooting in the face of local self employed workers who might be the completion of the new people that might stay for a year and then take off after disrupting the local market.
I'm a self employed remote worker who'd probably have qualified back when I had permanent residence in the United States. I faced this accusation a lot when I moved to San Francisco (2005, when you could still afford it) and my point was that if I'm REMOTE then how exactly am I taking away a job from locals? And if I'm self employed, whose job am I taking away?
Jobs are NOT a zero sum game except during MBA recruitment when everyone's resume looks identically starched. These days the majority of people who earn money wihtout being geographically dependent are instead dependent online and that usually means having built up a rep or a brand or a resume that allows them to do that. This has minimal footprint in the real world, for the most part, particularly in the local job market of wherever they happen to be.
Local self employed workers would have comparative advantage with local clients, whereas relocators would have to start building a rep from scratch IF their services were delivered IRL. That alone may make this daunting for that kind of a worker to relocate. The two are incompatible. The type of worker who can pick up and take off anywhere and work from anywhere is rarely competition for the local market. And, for the most part, does project based work rather than a jerb.
/end rant
posted by infini at 1:26 PM on December 29, 2018 [30 favorites]
I'm a self employed remote worker who'd probably have qualified back when I had permanent residence in the United States. I faced this accusation a lot when I moved to San Francisco (2005, when you could still afford it) and my point was that if I'm REMOTE then how exactly am I taking away a job from locals? And if I'm self employed, whose job am I taking away?
Jobs are NOT a zero sum game except during MBA recruitment when everyone's resume looks identically starched. These days the majority of people who earn money wihtout being geographically dependent are instead dependent online and that usually means having built up a rep or a brand or a resume that allows them to do that. This has minimal footprint in the real world, for the most part, particularly in the local job market of wherever they happen to be.
Local self employed workers would have comparative advantage with local clients, whereas relocators would have to start building a rep from scratch IF their services were delivered IRL. That alone may make this daunting for that kind of a worker to relocate. The two are incompatible. The type of worker who can pick up and take off anywhere and work from anywhere is rarely competition for the local market. And, for the most part, does project based work rather than a jerb.
/end rant
posted by infini at 1:26 PM on December 29, 2018 [30 favorites]
Hello! Born in Oklahoma, raised in Tulsa, left long ago, but enjoying the usual shitting on Flyover Country that starts up in these threads.
Here's a few things to understand:
1. Tulsa has been caught in a struggle between the city's boosters -- who have been trying to drag the city out of the miasma of the 80s Oil Bust that saw white collar jobs flee en masse -- and the older population -- who hate all government and taxes and also keep the government's hands off their Medicare
2. Kaiser has been almost singlehandedly been leading the battle, even as the alt-right and far-right in town see him as their local George Soros. (Yes, of course he's Jewish.) This comes through in projects like the Gathering Place, one of the most insanely ambitious privately funded public works you'll ever see. (I toured it when I was in town and... it's hard to explain how insane it is. It's like a mashup of Madison Square Park, a European adventure playground, a Northwest mid-century modern chalet, and a public sculpture garden, all munged into this space about 7 city blocks by 3. And all built with the idea that this is for everyone, not just the rich white kids in the neighborhood.)
3. Meanwhile, the state has woefully undervalued education, leading to the ongoing crisis in K-12 there. And that's created a a legion of problems: It's driven people like me out of state to raise their kids, it's driven teachers out of state for their careers, it's prevented high paying companies from moving to the state, and it discourages people like me from coming back because there's nowhere for me to work.
So, why try to lure remote workers to Tulsa? Because right now it's so cheap to live there it's creating an art scene. Yes, the "Tulsa Arts District" is a promotional gimmick, but given even 10 years ago that part of town was quiet after 5pm, the rapid transformation has given hope that maybe they can make Tulsa the next Portland. (Add in medical marijuana and the newly liberalized liquor laws and you'd think change is rapidly afoot.)
Luring remote workers is the perfect gimmick -- you don't have to lure the companies and discuss the shitty environment the state is for families and the poor, but you can lure young tech workers to a town where they can liven up things. Are there better ways that could work locally? Of course -- but let's begin with the problem there's no tech industry there to begin with, and the education system is ill-suited to even begin to produce the sort of rank-and-file people you need to get any sort of scene going.
Will it work? Who knows. It's certainly not the dumbest thing they've ever done since the oil crash. It may well be the smartest.
Will I move back? Well, not as long as I have a kid in school. Not as long as that state stays married to these cranky, xenophobic, anti-tax, anti-government sorts that dominate local politics and want to "own the libs" and try to legislate LTGBQ folk out of existence.
And I think, ultimately, that's the fatal flaw of all this. For Oklahoma (or Kansas, or Nebraska, or West Virginia) to thrive, you need to give your next generation a reason to stay. When NYC and San Fran sound better despite the cramped apartments and long distances, when bussing a table in Seattle will make you as much hourly as a starting teacher in Tulsa, when being a gay kid in Boston or LA is a safer deal than growing up in rural Oklahoma... why stay?
posted by dw at 1:31 PM on December 29, 2018 [177 favorites]
Here's a few things to understand:
1. Tulsa has been caught in a struggle between the city's boosters -- who have been trying to drag the city out of the miasma of the 80s Oil Bust that saw white collar jobs flee en masse -- and the older population -- who hate all government and taxes and also keep the government's hands off their Medicare
2. Kaiser has been almost singlehandedly been leading the battle, even as the alt-right and far-right in town see him as their local George Soros. (Yes, of course he's Jewish.) This comes through in projects like the Gathering Place, one of the most insanely ambitious privately funded public works you'll ever see. (I toured it when I was in town and... it's hard to explain how insane it is. It's like a mashup of Madison Square Park, a European adventure playground, a Northwest mid-century modern chalet, and a public sculpture garden, all munged into this space about 7 city blocks by 3. And all built with the idea that this is for everyone, not just the rich white kids in the neighborhood.)
3. Meanwhile, the state has woefully undervalued education, leading to the ongoing crisis in K-12 there. And that's created a a legion of problems: It's driven people like me out of state to raise their kids, it's driven teachers out of state for their careers, it's prevented high paying companies from moving to the state, and it discourages people like me from coming back because there's nowhere for me to work.
So, why try to lure remote workers to Tulsa? Because right now it's so cheap to live there it's creating an art scene. Yes, the "Tulsa Arts District" is a promotional gimmick, but given even 10 years ago that part of town was quiet after 5pm, the rapid transformation has given hope that maybe they can make Tulsa the next Portland. (Add in medical marijuana and the newly liberalized liquor laws and you'd think change is rapidly afoot.)
Luring remote workers is the perfect gimmick -- you don't have to lure the companies and discuss the shitty environment the state is for families and the poor, but you can lure young tech workers to a town where they can liven up things. Are there better ways that could work locally? Of course -- but let's begin with the problem there's no tech industry there to begin with, and the education system is ill-suited to even begin to produce the sort of rank-and-file people you need to get any sort of scene going.
Will it work? Who knows. It's certainly not the dumbest thing they've ever done since the oil crash. It may well be the smartest.
Will I move back? Well, not as long as I have a kid in school. Not as long as that state stays married to these cranky, xenophobic, anti-tax, anti-government sorts that dominate local politics and want to "own the libs" and try to legislate LTGBQ folk out of existence.
And I think, ultimately, that's the fatal flaw of all this. For Oklahoma (or Kansas, or Nebraska, or West Virginia) to thrive, you need to give your next generation a reason to stay. When NYC and San Fran sound better despite the cramped apartments and long distances, when bussing a table in Seattle will make you as much hourly as a starting teacher in Tulsa, when being a gay kid in Boston or LA is a safer deal than growing up in rural Oklahoma... why stay?
posted by dw at 1:31 PM on December 29, 2018 [177 favorites]
I think a scheme to lure in young people who will vote blue is probably the only way to turn these issues around.
posted by bleep at 1:42 PM on December 29, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by bleep at 1:42 PM on December 29, 2018 [18 favorites]
Born in Oklahoma, raised in Tulsa, left long ago, but enjoying the usual shitting on Flyover Country that starts up in these threads.
[......]
Will I move back? Well, not as long as I have a kid in school. Not as long as that state stays married to these cranky, xenophobic, anti-tax, anti-government sorts that dominate local politics and want to "own the libs" and try to legislate LTGBQ folk out of existence.
QED, I think.
posted by tclark at 1:53 PM on December 29, 2018 [27 favorites]
[......]
Will I move back? Well, not as long as I have a kid in school. Not as long as that state stays married to these cranky, xenophobic, anti-tax, anti-government sorts that dominate local politics and want to "own the libs" and try to legislate LTGBQ folk out of existence.
QED, I think.
posted by tclark at 1:53 PM on December 29, 2018 [27 favorites]
Somehow I thought that Tulsa was a small city but it's got more than 400 thousand residents and has grown by 3% since 2010. My fair city, Pittsburgh, would kill for that kind of population growth, or any growth at all.
posted by octothorpe at 2:17 PM on December 29, 2018
posted by octothorpe at 2:17 PM on December 29, 2018
They mention that Newton, Iowa has a successful similar thing, but the differences seem instructive. First of all, Newton is pretty close to Des Moines: it's about a half-hour drive. So I'm wondering how many of the new people are coming from Des Moines and basically treating Newton as a suburb, even though Newton has a separate identity and hasn't traditionally been seen as a suburb of Des Moines. I'm thinking that, rather than attracting new people to the area, they're drawing in semi-local people who had decided to move to the suburbs and could be induced to move to their particular town. Also, the public schools in Newton are generally considered to be pretty good. I think it's a lot easier to induce people to move to your town if you can sell it as a good place to raise kids. And finally, Newton is not particularly reactionary. It's really, really white, which could be a dealbreaker to some people, but it has traditionally been considered a Democratic area. (It's mostly old-school, blue-collar, union Democrats, and who the fuck knows what's going to happen with that in the future, but who the fuck knows what's going to happen with anything in Iowa politics in the future. Feel free to take the $10,000 to move to Newton and help out!)
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:37 PM on December 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:37 PM on December 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm a self employed remote worker
The article frames it as a remote worker OR self employed, not both. Some of the self employed people would be competing with existing self employed people in the local market.
posted by Candleman at 2:37 PM on December 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
The article frames it as a remote worker OR self employed, not both. Some of the self employed people would be competing with existing self employed people in the local market.
posted by Candleman at 2:37 PM on December 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
There are many, many days where I daydream about the cost of living in places like these. About owning an actual home. About not worrying for my future so much.
But just the thought of leaving the Bay Area makes me despondent. Actually doing it might break me.
posted by greermahoney at 2:42 PM on December 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
But just the thought of leaving the Bay Area makes me despondent. Actually doing it might break me.
posted by greermahoney at 2:42 PM on December 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
(I have a niece in Tulsa. She seems to like it.)
posted by greermahoney at 2:42 PM on December 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by greermahoney at 2:42 PM on December 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
The Vermont deal sounds okay, but I'm guessing housing in Burlington is twice as expensive as in Tulsa. The urge to move to Morrisville and shred some gnar while quaffing Heady Topper is strong, though.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:54 PM on December 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:54 PM on December 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
I like living in Omaha well enough when I don't have to deal with my Omaha employer and my very conservative Omaha coworkers. I can see how this works, in theory, especially for people who are cishet white progressives who could stand to do some good in midwestern cities.
The problem I have with it is that the remote work requirement basically says: Come here and pay us your tax dollars, but we aren't going to spend any of them on actually creating systems that support better employment for the people who are already here. Come here and elevate our housing prices, but we won't commit to making sure that other people can afford those houses. Come here and be upper-middle-class, because we want more people like you, but we don't know how to make jobs like that happen here.
It's the city tax base version of the problem where everybody wants senior engineers but nobody wants to train junior engineers. I totally believe it's a great deal for people who already work remotely and live on the coasts, but I'm not sure it's actually a good deal for the local population, if those people show up and, for example, mostly work out of the offices they set up in their new big houses instead of from the local coffee shops, if they mostly don't go to the local meetups because they don't need local work opportunities, all that. You might as well just say you want to import more well-off white people.
posted by Sequence at 3:00 PM on December 29, 2018 [57 favorites]
The problem I have with it is that the remote work requirement basically says: Come here and pay us your tax dollars, but we aren't going to spend any of them on actually creating systems that support better employment for the people who are already here. Come here and elevate our housing prices, but we won't commit to making sure that other people can afford those houses. Come here and be upper-middle-class, because we want more people like you, but we don't know how to make jobs like that happen here.
It's the city tax base version of the problem where everybody wants senior engineers but nobody wants to train junior engineers. I totally believe it's a great deal for people who already work remotely and live on the coasts, but I'm not sure it's actually a good deal for the local population, if those people show up and, for example, mostly work out of the offices they set up in their new big houses instead of from the local coffee shops, if they mostly don't go to the local meetups because they don't need local work opportunities, all that. You might as well just say you want to import more well-off white people.
posted by Sequence at 3:00 PM on December 29, 2018 [57 favorites]
It's the city tax base version of the problem where everybody wants senior engineers but nobody wants to train junior engineers. I totally believe it's a great deal for people who already work remotely and live on the coasts, but I'm not sure it's actually a good deal for the local population, if those people show up and, for example, mostly work out of the offices they set up in their new big houses instead of from the local coffee shops, if they mostly don't go to the local meetups because they don't need local work opportunities, all that.
I'll give the program the benefit of the doubt that they're doing all that is within their power to do, but without the broader cooperation of Oklahoma in making it a good place to live and work, I don't know that this program will have very broad success in transforming Tulsa.
posted by Ickster at 3:06 PM on December 29, 2018 [12 favorites]
I'll give the program the benefit of the doubt that they're doing all that is within their power to do, but without the broader cooperation of Oklahoma in making it a good place to live and work, I don't know that this program will have very broad success in transforming Tulsa.
posted by Ickster at 3:06 PM on December 29, 2018 [12 favorites]
While I applaud this noble effort and wish it success (as much as I doubt it will produce much change), we just escaped one of these flyover hell holes just over a decade ago. No way are we going back. Going back for holidays is torture enough.
posted by You Stay 'Ere An Make Sure 'E Doesn't Leave at 3:10 PM on December 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by You Stay 'Ere An Make Sure 'E Doesn't Leave at 3:10 PM on December 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
I think a scheme to lure in young people who will vote blue is probably the only way to turn these issues around.
I absolutely want someone to start a fund that pays people who believe in human rights and functional government to establish residency in red states for elections.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 3:18 PM on December 29, 2018 [15 favorites]
I absolutely want someone to start a fund that pays people who believe in human rights and functional government to establish residency in red states for elections.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 3:18 PM on December 29, 2018 [15 favorites]
I know Tulsa is home to Oral Roberts but is not also the location to the home offices of numerous Protestant faiths?
posted by robbyrobs at 3:22 PM on December 29, 2018
posted by robbyrobs at 3:22 PM on December 29, 2018
If you're can work remotely, then I hear Bali is nice. I hear Thailand is nice. I hear there's parts of Malaysia that are a bus ride from Singapore. There's no way to win this remote worker race except maybe getting fast internet, which isn't that common in the United States, and maybe just maybe being a nice place to live.
Oh I forgot to mention. Remote workers can move so there's no way to keep winning the race.
posted by rdr at 3:38 PM on December 29, 2018 [12 favorites]
Oh I forgot to mention. Remote workers can move so there's no way to keep winning the race.
posted by rdr at 3:38 PM on December 29, 2018 [12 favorites]
Hmm. Tulsa or Vermont. Decisions, decisions..
posted by ocschwar at 3:49 PM on December 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 3:49 PM on December 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
That said, I've been fantasizing about long work stints in Venice. VPN in from where ever. Enjoy the cheap rent that you can get in Venice if you;re not in a hotel.. And while you have to plan daily routines around the pace of Venice's logistics, getting it wrong means you have to eat Italian that day. THere are worse things.
posted by ocschwar at 3:51 PM on December 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 3:51 PM on December 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
From TFA:
“Folks in the country—maybe particularly on the coasts—in this technologically changing environment can literally live anywhere and do their jobs,” says Ken Levit, GKFF’s executive director.
...except when they can't, because American broadband connectivity is, to use a euphemism, uneven. Broadband is generally harder to attain if you're in a rural area.
I say this as someone who's lived in Vermont since 2002, and been part of an effort to expand broadband for years. That effort died with the election of the current governor, who assured me and all others that growing connectivity was purely a market problem.
So I think these "we'll pay you to live here" offers really mean "we'll pay you to come to one of our connectivity islands. And pay taxes, please."
posted by doctornemo at 3:52 PM on December 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
“Folks in the country—maybe particularly on the coasts—in this technologically changing environment can literally live anywhere and do their jobs,” says Ken Levit, GKFF’s executive director.
...except when they can't, because American broadband connectivity is, to use a euphemism, uneven. Broadband is generally harder to attain if you're in a rural area.
I say this as someone who's lived in Vermont since 2002, and been part of an effort to expand broadband for years. That effort died with the election of the current governor, who assured me and all others that growing connectivity was purely a market problem.
So I think these "we'll pay you to live here" offers really mean "we'll pay you to come to one of our connectivity islands. And pay taxes, please."
posted by doctornemo at 3:52 PM on December 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
The problem I have with it is that the remote work requirement basically says: Come here and pay us your tax dollars, but we aren't going to spend any of them on actually creating systems that support better employment for the people who are already here. Come here and elevate our housing prices, but we won't commit to making sure that other people can afford those houses. Come here and be upper-middle-class, because we want more people like you, but we don't know how to make jobs like that happen here.
Oh, FFS, wouldn't this also apply to attracting non remote working workers to Tulsa? IOW, don't come to Tulsa at all. Because you outsiders will do nothing but pay taxes and create demand for the nice things you're used to having in the big city. We don't need you coastal elites taking our housing with your fancy tastes and tolerant ways.
Of all the things Tulsa can try to attract some fresh blood, this is far from the shitty side of the spectrum.
posted by 2N2222 at 3:59 PM on December 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
Oh, FFS, wouldn't this also apply to attracting non remote working workers to Tulsa? IOW, don't come to Tulsa at all. Because you outsiders will do nothing but pay taxes and create demand for the nice things you're used to having in the big city. We don't need you coastal elites taking our housing with your fancy tastes and tolerant ways.
Of all the things Tulsa can try to attract some fresh blood, this is far from the shitty side of the spectrum.
posted by 2N2222 at 3:59 PM on December 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
Now if only I could actually snag remote work...
posted by Young Kullervo at 4:14 PM on December 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Young Kullervo at 4:14 PM on December 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Hmm. Tulsa or Vermont. Decisions, decisions..
I mean, Vermont. How is that even in question? Unless you just don't like rural living, I guess. If you have even the slightest interest though, Vermont is just about the most charming place I can imagine living in. It's really quite lovely and they have some nice mountains, too.
And the politics are much more MeFi-aligned; I've heard folks from Massachusetts(!) say they got tired of living in Vermont because strangers would just assume they were liberal and start talking liberal politics at them in, like, the grocery store parking lot. Whereas Oklahoma is, well, the opposite of that.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:37 PM on December 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
I mean, Vermont. How is that even in question? Unless you just don't like rural living, I guess. If you have even the slightest interest though, Vermont is just about the most charming place I can imagine living in. It's really quite lovely and they have some nice mountains, too.
And the politics are much more MeFi-aligned; I've heard folks from Massachusetts(!) say they got tired of living in Vermont because strangers would just assume they were liberal and start talking liberal politics at them in, like, the grocery store parking lot. Whereas Oklahoma is, well, the opposite of that.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:37 PM on December 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
But just the thought of leaving the Bay Area makes me despondent. Actually doing it might break me.
Yeah, it bugs me sometimes, too greermahoney. I lived in SF and Berkeley in my youth, I live in SoCal now, and I still miss the Bay Area a lot. I've considered taking jobs there, but the cost of living keeps me away.
There is definitely a pros and cons column, but quite often my husband and I have talked about the Midwest and what we would gain from moving back there. Like, say, a house we could afford, better schools, a shorter commute, a neighborhood we could let our kids run around in.
As much as I love California, as much as I would miss it, the commute and the cost of living are killing us, and I'm not speaking facetiously. I drive two hours a day to get to my job. I make a great salary, but we put it all into a mortgage and car/insurance. We have tried to find ways to reduce all of this, but all we've found is a vanpool which just increases my commute time. It's wearing me down and it isn't what I want or what he wants. We're thinking and assessing our options. Something needs to change, and it may need to be us, because I don't think it's going to be Cali.
If we made enough money in the Midwest, theoretically we could afford to take vacations to the Bay Area. We had a long weekend in SF right around the time of my first pregnancy, and it was a lot of fun. I did all the kitschy things I somehow never did when I was actually living there -- went to the Golden Gate Park, went to Point Lobos and the Sutro Baths, ate at nice restaurants, visited museums. I'd love to do that with my kids.
I lived in STL for 13 years and around the 5 year mark I figured it out and it went from this shitty place I complained about to ... actually, not that bad. Great restaurants, not a bunch of chain places because people could actually afford to take a chance and start a business (try that in Orange County, it's practically impossible). Fantastic farmer's markets. The best Vietnamese food I've ever had, no, really. Better camping than I've had in California. Okay, so there are ticks, you got me there. But float trips! And seasons!
And I dunno. Maybe if more people like me lived in places like that, we could make those places less shitty on a social-economic level. That might be wishful thinking, though. I still have friends in those places who think that's true.
I definitely miss STL sometimes. In the same ways I miss the Bay Area.
posted by offalark at 4:42 PM on December 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
Yeah, it bugs me sometimes, too greermahoney. I lived in SF and Berkeley in my youth, I live in SoCal now, and I still miss the Bay Area a lot. I've considered taking jobs there, but the cost of living keeps me away.
There is definitely a pros and cons column, but quite often my husband and I have talked about the Midwest and what we would gain from moving back there. Like, say, a house we could afford, better schools, a shorter commute, a neighborhood we could let our kids run around in.
As much as I love California, as much as I would miss it, the commute and the cost of living are killing us, and I'm not speaking facetiously. I drive two hours a day to get to my job. I make a great salary, but we put it all into a mortgage and car/insurance. We have tried to find ways to reduce all of this, but all we've found is a vanpool which just increases my commute time. It's wearing me down and it isn't what I want or what he wants. We're thinking and assessing our options. Something needs to change, and it may need to be us, because I don't think it's going to be Cali.
If we made enough money in the Midwest, theoretically we could afford to take vacations to the Bay Area. We had a long weekend in SF right around the time of my first pregnancy, and it was a lot of fun. I did all the kitschy things I somehow never did when I was actually living there -- went to the Golden Gate Park, went to Point Lobos and the Sutro Baths, ate at nice restaurants, visited museums. I'd love to do that with my kids.
I lived in STL for 13 years and around the 5 year mark I figured it out and it went from this shitty place I complained about to ... actually, not that bad. Great restaurants, not a bunch of chain places because people could actually afford to take a chance and start a business (try that in Orange County, it's practically impossible). Fantastic farmer's markets. The best Vietnamese food I've ever had, no, really. Better camping than I've had in California. Okay, so there are ticks, you got me there. But float trips! And seasons!
And I dunno. Maybe if more people like me lived in places like that, we could make those places less shitty on a social-economic level. That might be wishful thinking, though. I still have friends in those places who think that's true.
I definitely miss STL sometimes. In the same ways I miss the Bay Area.
posted by offalark at 4:42 PM on December 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
Don't be concerned that GKFF is somehow shortchanging Tulsa residents. They have been supporting education and community programs for literally decades. They just paid for a huge park on the Arkansas River that should finally be done now (it was just getting started when I left).
This particular initiative is aimed at getting downtown Tulsa repopulated, which has been an ongoing effort for the past 15 years or so. Progress was being made, but quite slowly. Turns out it's easier to get nightlife going than it is to get people to actually live downtown, though while I was there it was more a function of available residential space aside from corporate luxury apartment complexes than anything else. Why pay the same as you would for a house with twice as much space and a yard when it's only a 10 minute bike ride away?
Tulsa is actually a pretty decent, and inexpensive, place to live if you have the privilege to ignore state politics, don't mind being cold in the winter, and can arrange your life in a way that doesn't require one to rely on transit. (There are several neighborhoods where a remote worker would have no problem going carless. That was me 10 years ago.)
posted by wierdo at 4:57 PM on December 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
This particular initiative is aimed at getting downtown Tulsa repopulated, which has been an ongoing effort for the past 15 years or so. Progress was being made, but quite slowly. Turns out it's easier to get nightlife going than it is to get people to actually live downtown, though while I was there it was more a function of available residential space aside from corporate luxury apartment complexes than anything else. Why pay the same as you would for a house with twice as much space and a yard when it's only a 10 minute bike ride away?
Tulsa is actually a pretty decent, and inexpensive, place to live if you have the privilege to ignore state politics, don't mind being cold in the winter, and can arrange your life in a way that doesn't require one to rely on transit. (There are several neighborhoods where a remote worker would have no problem going carless. That was me 10 years ago.)
posted by wierdo at 4:57 PM on December 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
They also just brought the Woody Guthrie and Bob Dylan archives to Tulsa. They’re spending a lot of money to try to make it better.
posted by persona au gratin at 5:10 PM on December 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by persona au gratin at 5:10 PM on December 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Hmm. Tulsa or Vermont. Decisions, decisions..
One thing to think about: Tulsa is 15.6% African-American, 14.1% Latinx according to the 2010 Census. Vermont, in the same census, was 94.3% white and a little over 1% black.
There are about twice as many non-white people in Tulsa than there are in the city of Burlington total.
Oklahoma is problematic, but I'd take its diversity and culture (and resulting clashes) any day over Vermont's lilywhite monoculture.
posted by dw at 5:27 PM on December 29, 2018 [26 favorites]
One thing to think about: Tulsa is 15.6% African-American, 14.1% Latinx according to the 2010 Census. Vermont, in the same census, was 94.3% white and a little over 1% black.
There are about twice as many non-white people in Tulsa than there are in the city of Burlington total.
Oklahoma is problematic, but I'd take its diversity and culture (and resulting clashes) any day over Vermont's lilywhite monoculture.
posted by dw at 5:27 PM on December 29, 2018 [26 favorites]
Hmm, I'm not a remote worker by any means, but I'm getting priced out of Denver and would like a nice alternative. It'd be nice if they had transit, right now I can ride my bike to work, or Magda ( my Vespa), and while transit has taken a nosedive on weekends here, during the week it's not too bad. I've got a friend visiting there right now, he sounds like he'd do it if not for a major downside for him, he's got family there. Well, I'll have to think about it. I do like City living.
posted by evilDoug at 5:32 PM on December 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 5:32 PM on December 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
So I think these "we'll pay you to live here" offers really mean "we'll pay you to come to one of our connectivity islands. And pay taxes, please."
Ironically, many of Tulsa's surrounding rural communities have had FTTH service since the early 2000s thanks to the rural coop telcos being relatively forward thinking. Maybe don't slag on places for things you don't actually know about..
It's also pretty amusing to hear that Tulsa has no "tech scene." Certainly not the sort Silicon Valley would be interested in, but a lot of high tech cold war stuff was engineered and built there. While much of that is in the past, the experience didn't just up and disappear.
It's also a very middle management kind of town in many ways. While most of the national/multinational HQs have decamped elsewhere, there are still a shit ton of decently sized regional scape businesses employing a large number of white collar workers.
Tulsa has many problems, not least of which is being in Oklahoma and being the victim of gerrymandering and general disdain by the state government. It annoys me to no end when people talk as if it's some cow town in the middle of nowhere like some stereotype, though.
posted by wierdo at 5:50 PM on December 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
Ironically, many of Tulsa's surrounding rural communities have had FTTH service since the early 2000s thanks to the rural coop telcos being relatively forward thinking. Maybe don't slag on places for things you don't actually know about..
It's also pretty amusing to hear that Tulsa has no "tech scene." Certainly not the sort Silicon Valley would be interested in, but a lot of high tech cold war stuff was engineered and built there. While much of that is in the past, the experience didn't just up and disappear.
It's also a very middle management kind of town in many ways. While most of the national/multinational HQs have decamped elsewhere, there are still a shit ton of decently sized regional scape businesses employing a large number of white collar workers.
Tulsa has many problems, not least of which is being in Oklahoma and being the victim of gerrymandering and general disdain by the state government. It annoys me to no end when people talk as if it's some cow town in the middle of nowhere like some stereotype, though.
posted by wierdo at 5:50 PM on December 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
I can't help but wonder if taking that money and funding education for people already living there so they can land that type of job, rather than giving people that already have it good an extra bonus.This is something every city needs to do but it’s not sufficient: in tech, you’ll meet tons of people who got that education and left because the local job market was too limited (I’ve worked with a ton of people who have that story). Something like this seems like a good step to likely win some of those people back and otherwise grow the local community of people who might eventually be thinking about starting companies or joining existing companies which might not have known how to reach them before.
I think we’re prone to thinking there’s one thing needed to turn a city around when it’s usually a number of things, all of which need effort at the same time to really get anywhere.
posted by adamsc at 5:51 PM on December 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Hey why not give it back to all the Native tribes?
posted by elsietheeel at 6:13 PM on December 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 6:13 PM on December 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Well yeah, the Northeast is definitely super white, especially if we're talking NH/VT/ME. That's definitely a thing, no denying. Not sure if I'd call it a monoculture—white people are no more a monolith than any other group of people—but it's not a diverse region of the country.
I'd still take it over Oklahoma any day. I mean I actually did, I'm literally moving to New Hampshire tomorrow.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:24 PM on December 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'd still take it over Oklahoma any day. I mean I actually did, I'm literally moving to New Hampshire tomorrow.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:24 PM on December 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
You might also be interested to know that Tulsa Public Schools, again, for all its problems, provides a better quality education than the majority of districts in the country. Some of their schools are even highly ranked nationally. There are plenty of inequities in the system and some fairly idiotic state mandates that have been enacted recently, but it's not place people move away from because the schools are terrible.
Jokes, even relatively mean spirited ones, that are presented as such don't bother me. The stereotypes exist for a reason. There are people like that. You will get asked if you've found a church yet when you first move there. It's worth ridiculing. What was bugging me are people saying things they seem to intend to be taken seriously that are based in those stereotypes. Just thought that was worth clarifying.
posted by wierdo at 7:48 PM on December 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Jokes, even relatively mean spirited ones, that are presented as such don't bother me. The stereotypes exist for a reason. There are people like that. You will get asked if you've found a church yet when you first move there. It's worth ridiculing. What was bugging me are people saying things they seem to intend to be taken seriously that are based in those stereotypes. Just thought that was worth clarifying.
posted by wierdo at 7:48 PM on December 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
The way some MeFites talk about living outside the coasts is like y’all think we live in some kind of Siberian gulag at worst, and like it’s some kind of anthropological sojourn at best. I genuinely feel embarrassed at the levels of ignorance that pop up in these threads, so reliable you can set a clock to it.
You know that... there are MeFites.... in these “flyover hell holes”..... right?
posted by mostly vowels at 7:53 PM on December 29, 2018 [36 favorites]
You know that... there are MeFites.... in these “flyover hell holes”..... right?
posted by mostly vowels at 7:53 PM on December 29, 2018 [36 favorites]
Sorry, I just have a crush on Vermont over here. I know it's not perfect (nor is New Hampshire, nor anywhere) and there are many other fine places to live (possibly including Tulsa, which I admittedly have never personally visited). I just wanted to put a word in on behalf of the 802.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:14 PM on December 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:14 PM on December 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oh, FFS, wouldn't this also apply to attracting non remote working workers to Tulsa?
It doesn't, because the only way you attract non-remote workers to Tulsa is by having jobs for them, and that would mean local companies doing local employment and providing opportunities for locals. I'm not intending to call out Tulsa specifically, here; as is noted, this notion is getting play in a lot of areas. If the place funding this is funding other things that are being really effective at helping the local community, great! But making the midwest into the bedroom community for coastal tech industries where all the decisions are made elsewhere... it's just an idea that worries me a lot, and then the way this is being executed is that it's a bonus for the people who already have the flexibility to make these sorts of moves.
I really don't know where you're getting "you outsiders" from, 2N2222. I'm in Omaha and I'm from Cleveland and I have never in my life lived in the Bay Area or NYC. I am concerned about these programs as a person who lives in a place where people talk about wanting to start doing the same thing. I've definitely thought about leaving plenty of times, because there's a lot my local tech community is not doing to make this an okay place to be an underrepresented minority in tech. I am not, no, seeing how giving more resources to the affluent is going to help, because I don't really see how this sort of plan is structured to bring back diverse people instead of, say, the cishet white conservatives whose only reason for leaving was economic.
posted by Sequence at 8:14 PM on December 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
It doesn't, because the only way you attract non-remote workers to Tulsa is by having jobs for them, and that would mean local companies doing local employment and providing opportunities for locals. I'm not intending to call out Tulsa specifically, here; as is noted, this notion is getting play in a lot of areas. If the place funding this is funding other things that are being really effective at helping the local community, great! But making the midwest into the bedroom community for coastal tech industries where all the decisions are made elsewhere... it's just an idea that worries me a lot, and then the way this is being executed is that it's a bonus for the people who already have the flexibility to make these sorts of moves.
I really don't know where you're getting "you outsiders" from, 2N2222. I'm in Omaha and I'm from Cleveland and I have never in my life lived in the Bay Area or NYC. I am concerned about these programs as a person who lives in a place where people talk about wanting to start doing the same thing. I've definitely thought about leaving plenty of times, because there's a lot my local tech community is not doing to make this an okay place to be an underrepresented minority in tech. I am not, no, seeing how giving more resources to the affluent is going to help, because I don't really see how this sort of plan is structured to bring back diverse people instead of, say, the cishet white conservatives whose only reason for leaving was economic.
posted by Sequence at 8:14 PM on December 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
The only people in this thread who are saying bad stuff about the Midwest are people who live there.
posted by bleep at 8:38 PM on December 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by bleep at 8:38 PM on December 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
I genuinely feel embarrassed at the levels of ignorance that pop up in these threads, so reliable you can set a clock to it.
But, uh...most of the people ragging on the "flyover" states are people who either do live there, lived there as children and loathe returning, or lived there as adults and moved away.
posted by explosion at 8:40 PM on December 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
But, uh...most of the people ragging on the "flyover" states are people who either do live there, lived there as children and loathe returning, or lived there as adults and moved away.
posted by explosion at 8:40 PM on December 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
I'd be a lot more into this idea if the first thing I think of when I hear "Tulsa" wasn't "The richest African-American community in the U.S. about a century ago, until the white people burned it the fuck down." Yeah, that was a long time ago. Nearly a century. But I suspect a lot of people living in Greenwood in 1921 thought it had been a long time since slavery and suchlike, too.
I'm not saying that places can't get better. But we've all seen how thin the veneer is everywhere these days, haven't we.
posted by Etrigan at 9:05 PM on December 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
I'm not saying that places can't get better. But we've all seen how thin the veneer is everywhere these days, haven't we.
posted by Etrigan at 9:05 PM on December 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
You might also be interested to know that Tulsa Public Schools, again, for all its problems, provides a better quality education than the majority of districts in the country. Some of their schools are even highly ranked nationally. There are plenty of inequities in the system and some fairly idiotic state mandates that have been enacted recently, but it's not place people move away from because the schools are terrible.
And yet all I hear from my high school classmates is how happy they are to get their kids out of Oklahoma... or how unhappy they are they're stuck there due to family/vocation and they're having to endure the current chaos with their kids. 2500 emergency certified teachers in Oklahoma now.
Look, I grew up there. I went to Edison, as did my father. I'll defend that place any time against the smirks of the so-called "coastal elite," of which I am very much now one. But I will also tell you a lot of things there break my heart right now. It deserves better than either the sneers of white liberals or the lionizing of boosters waving away the last 30+ years of decay and destruction and ossification. It's a beautiful city with some of the best diabetes-inducing food imaginable and some of the most surprisingly warm and friendly people. I'm happy Kaiser and the new leadership in city hall is trying. I'm happy that the 2025 project is making an impact. I'm happy there's been a renaissance of restaurants and retail downtown and on Brady. I'm happy at long last they're facing down the lasting damage to the black community left by the Greenwood riots.
But downtown still has no grocery store, and neither does the North Side. Midtown is in decay. The very Republican parents are fighting hammer and tongs with the Republican party in town just to get schools adequately funded. My kid was assigned a Black Lives Matter essay -- and the topic was Terence Crutcher.
I criticize Tulsa because I love it as my hometown, and I want it to do better.
posted by dw at 9:15 PM on December 29, 2018 [23 favorites]
And yet all I hear from my high school classmates is how happy they are to get their kids out of Oklahoma... or how unhappy they are they're stuck there due to family/vocation and they're having to endure the current chaos with their kids. 2500 emergency certified teachers in Oklahoma now.
Look, I grew up there. I went to Edison, as did my father. I'll defend that place any time against the smirks of the so-called "coastal elite," of which I am very much now one. But I will also tell you a lot of things there break my heart right now. It deserves better than either the sneers of white liberals or the lionizing of boosters waving away the last 30+ years of decay and destruction and ossification. It's a beautiful city with some of the best diabetes-inducing food imaginable and some of the most surprisingly warm and friendly people. I'm happy Kaiser and the new leadership in city hall is trying. I'm happy that the 2025 project is making an impact. I'm happy there's been a renaissance of restaurants and retail downtown and on Brady. I'm happy at long last they're facing down the lasting damage to the black community left by the Greenwood riots.
But downtown still has no grocery store, and neither does the North Side. Midtown is in decay. The very Republican parents are fighting hammer and tongs with the Republican party in town just to get schools adequately funded. My kid was assigned a Black Lives Matter essay -- and the topic was Terence Crutcher.
I criticize Tulsa because I love it as my hometown, and I want it to do better.
posted by dw at 9:15 PM on December 29, 2018 [23 favorites]
All I can think is, what happens in a few years when your remote job goes bust, because the company gets bought out or your department gets downsized, and then you’re stuck in a place where you can’t get another job? The days are gone when you could reasonably assume you’d keep the same job until retirement. And most companies will instantly trash the resume of anyone without a local address, unless you’re fairly high-level. You have to live somewhere with multiple employment options in your field. That means fighting 18 trillion other people for an expensive apartment in Austin, Raleigh, Seattle, Boston, Chicago…
posted by snowmentality at 9:16 PM on December 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by snowmentality at 9:16 PM on December 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
Maybe the hope is that tech jobs will beget jobs? As you gather talent in one area, eventually they will strike out and form their own ventures. However, when all of the jobs are remote, that makes growing an ecosystem much harder.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:50 PM on December 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 9:50 PM on December 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
If you have decent tech skills, the aforementioned midsized companies would be happy to employ you at reasonable salaries relative to local cost of living if that's your thing. That's true in nearly any city of such size in the country.
Unfortunately, while housing is drastically less expensive, the crap we all want costs the same, whether it be a car or an Xbox or furniture. The price difference in food has also largely evaporated, so you're pretty much left with only energy and housing actually being cheaper.
It all works out fine in the end so long as you don't find yourself with a need to move back to a high cost area when you retire and your Social Security and 401k (and for the lucky few, your pension) is a lot smaller than it would have been had you continued to make the higher salary. And if you bought a house it probably will have appreciated less in value, though you may have avoided some stress from wild swings in housing prices.
posted by wierdo at 9:51 PM on December 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, while housing is drastically less expensive, the crap we all want costs the same, whether it be a car or an Xbox or furniture. The price difference in food has also largely evaporated, so you're pretty much left with only energy and housing actually being cheaper.
It all works out fine in the end so long as you don't find yourself with a need to move back to a high cost area when you retire and your Social Security and 401k (and for the lucky few, your pension) is a lot smaller than it would have been had you continued to make the higher salary. And if you bought a house it probably will have appreciated less in value, though you may have avoided some stress from wild swings in housing prices.
posted by wierdo at 9:51 PM on December 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
You know that... there are MeFites.... in these “flyover hell holes”..... right?
Yes. I was one. I lived in the rural flyovers for over 30 years. Maybe you didn’t catch that. And half my family is still there. In rural Wisconsin (and waaaay rural Idaho. And even more rural South Dakota.) I said things exactly like what you just said for years. It doesn’t come from ignorance. It comes from experience.
No more. I have every right to criticize and speak out. I’m not going play the game of excuse making any more or pretending there not a deeply disturbed racist bigoted culture that dominates most of rural red state America.
You want live in it that’s your choice. But don’t tell me what the reality is.
Every dime I spent, every damn minute there, supported the most toxic backwards egregious ignorance that has poisoned this country and made my family broken and miserable. My wife and I finally had enough. We couldn’t fix it. It didn’t want to be fixed.
Leaving was the best and hardest decision we ever made. We’v Never looked back. And 2016 firmly cemented that decision.
To live in and around people actually interested, invested and excited about the future, people who are engaged, compassionate and capable of critical thought, well... it’s something I wish I’d done when I was eighteen.
posted by You Stay 'Ere An Make Sure 'E Doesn't Leave at 9:55 PM on December 29, 2018 [37 favorites]
Yes. I was one. I lived in the rural flyovers for over 30 years. Maybe you didn’t catch that. And half my family is still there. In rural Wisconsin (and waaaay rural Idaho. And even more rural South Dakota.) I said things exactly like what you just said for years. It doesn’t come from ignorance. It comes from experience.
No more. I have every right to criticize and speak out. I’m not going play the game of excuse making any more or pretending there not a deeply disturbed racist bigoted culture that dominates most of rural red state America.
You want live in it that’s your choice. But don’t tell me what the reality is.
Every dime I spent, every damn minute there, supported the most toxic backwards egregious ignorance that has poisoned this country and made my family broken and miserable. My wife and I finally had enough. We couldn’t fix it. It didn’t want to be fixed.
Leaving was the best and hardest decision we ever made. We’v Never looked back. And 2016 firmly cemented that decision.
To live in and around people actually interested, invested and excited about the future, people who are engaged, compassionate and capable of critical thought, well... it’s something I wish I’d done when I was eighteen.
posted by You Stay 'Ere An Make Sure 'E Doesn't Leave at 9:55 PM on December 29, 2018 [37 favorites]
I grew up in Oklahoma. There are people I love there, and people I respect. It's not a perfect overlap but that's family.
I don't know Tulsa, except by reputation. But I know the West and middle of the state.
There are reasons every visit "back home" takes me weeks to get over. There are reasons I feel panic setting in driving down I-35 and I-40. There are reasons I'm never moving back and would not raise a kid there. And those reasons haven't gone away.
You can care about the people in a place and celebrate their lives without turning a blind eye to the hellhole it is for anyone different.
posted by allium cepa at 4:32 AM on December 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
I don't know Tulsa, except by reputation. But I know the West and middle of the state.
There are reasons every visit "back home" takes me weeks to get over. There are reasons I feel panic setting in driving down I-35 and I-40. There are reasons I'm never moving back and would not raise a kid there. And those reasons haven't gone away.
You can care about the people in a place and celebrate their lives without turning a blind eye to the hellhole it is for anyone different.
posted by allium cepa at 4:32 AM on December 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
I’m actually almost kind of angry that this dude thinks 10k is enough to compensate for the added stress of living in a place where a lot of people want you dead, erased from existence, or put (violently) in your place.
Like I like the idea of what he’s trying to do, in general. But I’m theoretically a good candidate for this, except that I’m an obvious lesbian, and I look at that offer and go, “that’s what he thinks it’s worth to deal with all that fear and hostility and danger and isolation?” Fuck that.
So. That seems like a problem.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:01 AM on December 30, 2018 [18 favorites]
Like I like the idea of what he’s trying to do, in general. But I’m theoretically a good candidate for this, except that I’m an obvious lesbian, and I look at that offer and go, “that’s what he thinks it’s worth to deal with all that fear and hostility and danger and isolation?” Fuck that.
So. That seems like a problem.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:01 AM on December 30, 2018 [18 favorites]
Most of my eleven siblings grew up in either Oklahoma, or some place along the Mississippi, from Arkansas south. I didn't grow up in that area, but it was natural for me to go visit kin there.
I grew up listening to relatives tell stories about how terrible life was in Oklahoma, how lucky I was to be able to live in California. My sister claimed that, if she owned a house in Oklahoma and a house in Hell, She'd live in the house in Hell, and rent out the house in Oklahoma. She also claimed that [you] couldn't pay her to live in Tulsa. Well, that was then, I guess. All three of her children live in Tulsa now, but she's laid her mortal burden down some twenty years ago. Somehow I don't think she'd mind. Her kids, god love them, never had a lick of sense.
My abiding memories of Oklahoma are from fifty miles or so south of Oklahoma City--stultifying humidity in the summer, sweltering heat. Chiggers and ticks. The chill of winters there soaked into your bones. Handy stuff all around, if you've lived long to know that life's transitions require neither your approval nor cooperation. Anyhow, some cousins still live on the family land, a few miles from Holdenville. It was in my lifetime that the old house got electricity. The contrast between them and the kids living in Tulsa couldn't be more profound.
posted by mule98J at 5:13 AM on December 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I grew up listening to relatives tell stories about how terrible life was in Oklahoma, how lucky I was to be able to live in California. My sister claimed that, if she owned a house in Oklahoma and a house in Hell, She'd live in the house in Hell, and rent out the house in Oklahoma. She also claimed that [you] couldn't pay her to live in Tulsa. Well, that was then, I guess. All three of her children live in Tulsa now, but she's laid her mortal burden down some twenty years ago. Somehow I don't think she'd mind. Her kids, god love them, never had a lick of sense.
My abiding memories of Oklahoma are from fifty miles or so south of Oklahoma City--stultifying humidity in the summer, sweltering heat. Chiggers and ticks. The chill of winters there soaked into your bones. Handy stuff all around, if you've lived long to know that life's transitions require neither your approval nor cooperation. Anyhow, some cousins still live on the family land, a few miles from Holdenville. It was in my lifetime that the old house got electricity. The contrast between them and the kids living in Tulsa couldn't be more profound.
posted by mule98J at 5:13 AM on December 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm a remote worker. Grumpybearbride and I moved from SF to NYC and then finally to Philly, where we were able to buy a house. Since we now have housing security we have been able to really invest in our communities by volunteering, attending civic association meetings, joining running clubs and just recently hosting a holiday party for our block. That I am a remote worker has exactly zero bearing on how involved I am in my community. What makes the difference is that I was able to put down roots, something that was entirely infeasible in NY and SF. So good on Tulsa for trying to bring people in who can contribute to the tax base and the overall vibrancy of the city. The idea that they will spend all of their time in their McMansion home theaters cackling about horrible townies is ignorant at best.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:49 AM on December 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:49 AM on December 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
So , park building aside (building parks is good) is this being paired with public investment projects to handle an increased population? - programs to make areas more pleasant*, walkable, and greener? or highly subudized daycare for people who want to put down roots? Increased funding to local lgbtq centers? Maybe an additional green jobs /infrastructure commitment to deal with more people in a denser space?
*dealing with heat in passive ways to encourage non-car transportation idk? Covered arcades, beeezeways, interior gardens?
posted by The Whelk at 9:03 AM on December 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
*dealing with heat in passive ways to encourage non-car transportation idk? Covered arcades, beeezeways, interior gardens?
posted by The Whelk at 9:03 AM on December 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
(From the article)
And if workers skew older, and bring their families—an unlikely but plausible scenario—
Virtually everyone I know in the bay area thinking about leaving is motivated by family growth. That would probably be Tulsa's "in," so to speak. Although, it kinda assumes a trailing spouse is willing to leave a career behind.
For single dudes like myself, the math works out best here. Remote work in a different city would cause a salary change based on location. It's a little illogical, but so is my compensation so I'm not about to challenge it. Yes, rent here in SF is absurdly high. But I'm also saving away more than I made in my last job. Moving to a low CoL area would virtually guarantee that number would fall. Sure, it sucks that rent can and does go up, but I just got my lease renewal docs and it's like a 1 percent increase, easily within the bounds of my annual raises.
But here's the real issue. With the market down so much lately, everyone's wondering about a recession. If that hits tech particularly hard, there will be layoffs, and remote workers making big bucks are easy sacrificial lambs. Even remote workers hit by a CoL payscale are still at elevated risk. In such a scenario, you have to look at both remote and local jobs, and the Tulsa local isn't that vibrant for tech folks. Most of the money is from oil, including the Kaiser Foundation paying for this experiment / survey data collection program. You might see this as a hedge against the tech sector, but oil has dropped pretty hard lately.
is this being paired with public investment projects to handle an increased population?
It's a private program awarded to 25 applicants. I don't know that it even amounts to a rounding error in demographic stats for the Tulsa MSA.
posted by pwnguin at 9:18 AM on December 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
And if workers skew older, and bring their families—an unlikely but plausible scenario—
Virtually everyone I know in the bay area thinking about leaving is motivated by family growth. That would probably be Tulsa's "in," so to speak. Although, it kinda assumes a trailing spouse is willing to leave a career behind.
For single dudes like myself, the math works out best here. Remote work in a different city would cause a salary change based on location. It's a little illogical, but so is my compensation so I'm not about to challenge it. Yes, rent here in SF is absurdly high. But I'm also saving away more than I made in my last job. Moving to a low CoL area would virtually guarantee that number would fall. Sure, it sucks that rent can and does go up, but I just got my lease renewal docs and it's like a 1 percent increase, easily within the bounds of my annual raises.
But here's the real issue. With the market down so much lately, everyone's wondering about a recession. If that hits tech particularly hard, there will be layoffs, and remote workers making big bucks are easy sacrificial lambs. Even remote workers hit by a CoL payscale are still at elevated risk. In such a scenario, you have to look at both remote and local jobs, and the Tulsa local isn't that vibrant for tech folks. Most of the money is from oil, including the Kaiser Foundation paying for this experiment / survey data collection program. You might see this as a hedge against the tech sector, but oil has dropped pretty hard lately.
is this being paired with public investment projects to handle an increased population?
It's a private program awarded to 25 applicants. I don't know that it even amounts to a rounding error in demographic stats for the Tulsa MSA.
posted by pwnguin at 9:18 AM on December 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
I’m actually almost kind of angry that this dude thinks 10k is enough to compensate for the added stress of living in a place where a lot of people want you dead, erased from existence, or put (violently) in your place.
I can sympathize with the folks of Tulsa/Vermont seeing that their town/state is going downhill to the point where large bribery to get anyone else to move there seems like their best option. (Doesn't Alaska pay people to live there too?) But there really isn't any way to fix an unwelcoming social climate, and that's why us weirdos stay living in coastal state regions no matter what the expense because we're less likely to be hated for existing there.
I guess Tulsa might be a good deal if you're the kind of person who is cheap and doesn't want to leave your home all day anyway (which sounds like what they are fishing for, to be fair), but as others pointed out above, what happens if you lose your job in the future and you're stuck in Tulsa, unable to get another?
Sometimes there is no fix for a problem.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:37 AM on December 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I can sympathize with the folks of Tulsa/Vermont seeing that their town/state is going downhill to the point where large bribery to get anyone else to move there seems like their best option. (Doesn't Alaska pay people to live there too?) But there really isn't any way to fix an unwelcoming social climate, and that's why us weirdos stay living in coastal state regions no matter what the expense because we're less likely to be hated for existing there.
I guess Tulsa might be a good deal if you're the kind of person who is cheap and doesn't want to leave your home all day anyway (which sounds like what they are fishing for, to be fair), but as others pointed out above, what happens if you lose your job in the future and you're stuck in Tulsa, unable to get another?
Sometimes there is no fix for a problem.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:37 AM on December 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I guess Tulsa might be a good deal if you're the kind of person who is cheap and doesn't want to leave your home all day anyway (which sounds like what they are fishing for, to be fair),This is a gross, shitty thing to say. And I don't know Tulsa at all, but I don't think it's true. That park that the Kaufman Foundation has funded looks pretty amazing, for one thing.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:53 AM on December 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
That park that the Kaufman Foundation has funded looks pretty amazing, for one thing.
That park isn't so great if you don't feel safe or welcome being there in public.
posted by JackFlash at 10:06 AM on December 30, 2018 [9 favorites]
That park isn't so great if you don't feel safe or welcome being there in public.
posted by JackFlash at 10:06 AM on December 30, 2018 [9 favorites]
George Kaiser sounds like a wonderful person.
It's an intriguing challenge (more than that, if it's your city), how to go about creating and nurturing a seed that can grow into more.
I wonder if doing a sister-city thing, with ultrabroadband cultural connection, would help? Give an events producer like Seattle Town Hall enough funding for it to broadcast live to a venue in Tulsa, where the audience can walk a few steps to a coffeehouse to talk about it afterward.
And, make sure there's a low-stress pleasant bike route connecting downtown, universities, and to and around that wonderful park. (Read about the park, people.)
posted by ClimateCal at 10:08 AM on December 30, 2018
It's an intriguing challenge (more than that, if it's your city), how to go about creating and nurturing a seed that can grow into more.
I wonder if doing a sister-city thing, with ultrabroadband cultural connection, would help? Give an events producer like Seattle Town Hall enough funding for it to broadcast live to a venue in Tulsa, where the audience can walk a few steps to a coffeehouse to talk about it afterward.
And, make sure there's a low-stress pleasant bike route connecting downtown, universities, and to and around that wonderful park. (Read about the park, people.)
posted by ClimateCal at 10:08 AM on December 30, 2018
I grew up in Tulsa and moved away 20 years ago. It wasn't a bad place to grow up then, although the area around my childhood home (where my mom still lives) seems to have been utterly left behind by any economic growth the city may have experienced since then. What I find confounding about that is that there's no reason at all the neighborhood should look so depressed. It's in the same square mile as the largest hospital in town (St. Francis), which also happens to be the largest private employer in the state and not just the city. It's near a large park and one of the city's public golf courses (and not far from the private course that has hosted multiple PGA tour events). On the surface there shouldn't be anything wrong with that area.
I visited multiple times after my dad's cancer diagnosis and really had to adapt to how it had changed, though. Whenever the evening news talked about crime in "midtown" they generally meant the stretch between I-44 and 51st St. That whole part of "midtown" ("South Tulsa" having moved a few miles farther south in the past 20 years) really seems to have become undesirable, with its 60s and 70s housing stock now unfashionable and much of its retail replaced by vape shops. My dad's favorite steakhouse was demolished when I-44 was widened. All the places I used to go for lunch in high school, or where I bought my glasses, or whatever, are gone now. It neither looks nor feels like home anymore.
All of that is really just a preface to this: my mom periodically shows some optimism that I'll move back, and the snappy answer is always "you couldn't pay me enough." When this plan made the news I read it and thought, well, now somebody has offered, and the answer is indeed no. Sorry, mom.
posted by fedward at 10:33 AM on December 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I visited multiple times after my dad's cancer diagnosis and really had to adapt to how it had changed, though. Whenever the evening news talked about crime in "midtown" they generally meant the stretch between I-44 and 51st St. That whole part of "midtown" ("South Tulsa" having moved a few miles farther south in the past 20 years) really seems to have become undesirable, with its 60s and 70s housing stock now unfashionable and much of its retail replaced by vape shops. My dad's favorite steakhouse was demolished when I-44 was widened. All the places I used to go for lunch in high school, or where I bought my glasses, or whatever, are gone now. It neither looks nor feels like home anymore.
All of that is really just a preface to this: my mom periodically shows some optimism that I'll move back, and the snappy answer is always "you couldn't pay me enough." When this plan made the news I read it and thought, well, now somebody has offered, and the answer is indeed no. Sorry, mom.
posted by fedward at 10:33 AM on December 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
It’s a metropolitan area of a million people in the densest county in Oklahoma, in one of the bluest parts of the state. They’re not moving people to sod houses out on the prairie with the tumbleweeds.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:34 AM on December 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:34 AM on December 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
It doesn't, because the only way you attract non-remote workers to Tulsa is by having jobs for them, and that would mean local companies doing local employment and providing opportunities for locals.
You would rather subsidize business than individuals? Because spending the money on better "support systems", but not directly to individuals means subsidizing businesses. Which may be OK, but there's enough teats going around for the likes of Amazon already. In contrast, this Tulsa scheme intends to lure people who are neither beholden for their livelihoods to local businesses, nor employment/employer subsidies which can vanish as the political winds change. The carrot is being dangled in front of actual people, who by moving there, will diversify the employment base, create local demand for goods and services. Not diverse enough for you? That's a good way of leaving Tulsa to the cishet white conservatives who never left. If that's such a concern for you.
When you speak as "Come here and pay us your tax dollars...", you're very specifically framing the people they're seeking as outsiders. People who otherwise would not consider Tulsa for whatever reason. It's not clear to me that's how proponents of this actual program view it. But this does seem to be your interpretation.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:09 AM on December 30, 2018
You would rather subsidize business than individuals? Because spending the money on better "support systems", but not directly to individuals means subsidizing businesses. Which may be OK, but there's enough teats going around for the likes of Amazon already. In contrast, this Tulsa scheme intends to lure people who are neither beholden for their livelihoods to local businesses, nor employment/employer subsidies which can vanish as the political winds change. The carrot is being dangled in front of actual people, who by moving there, will diversify the employment base, create local demand for goods and services. Not diverse enough for you? That's a good way of leaving Tulsa to the cishet white conservatives who never left. If that's such a concern for you.
When you speak as "Come here and pay us your tax dollars...", you're very specifically framing the people they're seeking as outsiders. People who otherwise would not consider Tulsa for whatever reason. It's not clear to me that's how proponents of this actual program view it. But this does seem to be your interpretation.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:09 AM on December 30, 2018
This is a gross, shitty thing to say. And I don't know Tulsa at all, but I don't think it's true. That park that the Kaufman Foundation has funded looks pretty amazing, for one thing.
It’s a metropolitan area of a million people in the densest county in Oklahoma, in one of the bluest parts of the state. They’re not moving people to sod houses out on the prairie with the tumbleweeds.
Yes, it's kind of weird how Tulsa is being framed as some kind of backward Hooterville. It's a pretty good sized city. I mean, has anyone ever visited California outside the SF or LA areas? It's a lot more rural Oklahoma than many people would believe. Yet, how many people seeking a lively, interesting place to live would write off CA on the basis of the Central Valley or any red portion of the state? Which is virtually every part that isn't urban.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:25 AM on December 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
It’s a metropolitan area of a million people in the densest county in Oklahoma, in one of the bluest parts of the state. They’re not moving people to sod houses out on the prairie with the tumbleweeds.
Yes, it's kind of weird how Tulsa is being framed as some kind of backward Hooterville. It's a pretty good sized city. I mean, has anyone ever visited California outside the SF or LA areas? It's a lot more rural Oklahoma than many people would believe. Yet, how many people seeking a lively, interesting place to live would write off CA on the basis of the Central Valley or any red portion of the state? Which is virtually every part that isn't urban.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:25 AM on December 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
It seems to answer the adult friendships question pretty well. The people would live in the same building (if they want to) and work in the same coworking space, providing lots of opportunities to run into each other frequently. As long as they're employed remotely, they wouldn't be actual coworkers with the awkward hierarchies and competition that can involve.
It seems possible that if some folks in the group realize they have compatible skillsets, a few might start their own Tulsa-based venture.
And if they decide not to stay after the first year, it seems like the $10,000 would be roughly equivalent to the moving bonus no one offers anymore, to get them safely back to whichever coast.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 11:48 AM on December 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
It seems possible that if some folks in the group realize they have compatible skillsets, a few might start their own Tulsa-based venture.
And if they decide not to stay after the first year, it seems like the $10,000 would be roughly equivalent to the moving bonus no one offers anymore, to get them safely back to whichever coast.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 11:48 AM on December 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Being the wary, suspicious type, I needed to put a finger on what it is they aren't telling us. So, I did some research, and it seems that Oklahoma is positively lousy with Oklahomans. Be warned.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:58 AM on December 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:58 AM on December 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Mod note: It really seems like people enjoy brawling about whether or not it's allowed to criticize places in the US, but it's not productive and leads directly to bad feelings all around. If we can move away from the coast-vs.-inland fight and engage specifically with the article, that'd be great.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 12:03 PM on December 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 12:03 PM on December 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
With only 25 of these grants actually available, Kaiser's real investment seems to be $250k towards launching a national conversation about Tulsa.
It's working, too.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:10 PM on December 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's working, too.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:10 PM on December 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Look, this is a thing on Metafilter. And it's tiresome. I am happy to hear about Tulsa from people who know something about it.
I have a queer friend who went to school in Tulsa, and a trans acquaintance who grew up there and got out when old enough to do so. Neither would go back, even though that park does look nice. It's not elitist coastal scoffing to point out that Tulsa feels unsafe for a lot of people, especially queer or trans or NGC people. Hell, my cishet white dude friend who went to school in Stillwater didn't feel super-safe -- admittedly, that's an hour outside Tulsa, but it's not the middle of nowhere, and it is a university town. I haven't been to Tulsa, but I have been to Stillwater, and again, it didn't feel real safe to me.
I do remote work. I doubt I'm at the expertise-and-income-level this program is recruiting for, though because $10K is well above what I'd consider a mere relocation package. $10K is a huge sum to me, enough to be tempting despite my wariness -- particularly considering the additional financial subsidies. But I don't think I'm the demographic they're trying to entice, particularly since the program is capped at a low number of applicants. The people who do the kind of remote work that would actually spark some sort of tech-incubation renaissance seem much less likely to be swayed by just $10K. This program seems like it would mostly appeal to people who would otherwise consider Tulsa, for family ties or other reasons, and who -- like many people in tech -- are cis and white and of the tech-libertarian bent that makes them not so worried about the potential personal consequences of living in a conservative place. I don't really see how it would lead to Tulsa turning bluer, or friendlier.
posted by halation at 12:15 PM on December 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
I have a queer friend who went to school in Tulsa, and a trans acquaintance who grew up there and got out when old enough to do so. Neither would go back, even though that park does look nice. It's not elitist coastal scoffing to point out that Tulsa feels unsafe for a lot of people, especially queer or trans or NGC people. Hell, my cishet white dude friend who went to school in Stillwater didn't feel super-safe -- admittedly, that's an hour outside Tulsa, but it's not the middle of nowhere, and it is a university town. I haven't been to Tulsa, but I have been to Stillwater, and again, it didn't feel real safe to me.
I do remote work. I doubt I'm at the expertise-and-income-level this program is recruiting for, though because $10K is well above what I'd consider a mere relocation package. $10K is a huge sum to me, enough to be tempting despite my wariness -- particularly considering the additional financial subsidies. But I don't think I'm the demographic they're trying to entice, particularly since the program is capped at a low number of applicants. The people who do the kind of remote work that would actually spark some sort of tech-incubation renaissance seem much less likely to be swayed by just $10K. This program seems like it would mostly appeal to people who would otherwise consider Tulsa, for family ties or other reasons, and who -- like many people in tech -- are cis and white and of the tech-libertarian bent that makes them not so worried about the potential personal consequences of living in a conservative place. I don't really see how it would lead to Tulsa turning bluer, or friendlier.
posted by halation at 12:15 PM on December 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
Funny that so many people are going on about how no one would want to move to Tulsa because the state is stuffed with right-wingers and has a super-conservative government, when everyone -- of every race, gender, sexuality -- from liberal parts of America has been happily flooding into Austin, Texas.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 12:26 PM on December 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 12:26 PM on December 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
I grew up in Tulsa. Go back to visit family every year. It's a fine city. I never felt unsafe. My best friend since I was three still lives there as a open gay man and seems to feel safe there. Just like most urban areas in the country, the city folk generally are relatively open. I visited Gathering Place when I flew back for Christmas and it is rather amazing to see. The Woody Guthrie museum is a bit small but top notch. I can't wait for the Dylan archives to open as a big Dylan fan. Philbrook Museum has a pretty good art collection (as well as a light-up disco floor in one room for unknown reasons). Housing prices are dirt cheap compared to what I pay out in California. If you want to live comfortably in a midsized city it'll do nicely.
It does have its problems. Education (although as mentioned above the high school I went to was quite good for a public school). Lots of religion all around (but again, most of the people I grew up with are atheist/agnostic and they don't have problems living their lives). Bland cookie cutter shopping centers (which seem to be in every city these days). I wouldnt move back because my life is here now, but it's not some backwards wasteland devoid of culture.
posted by downtohisturtles at 12:26 PM on December 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
It does have its problems. Education (although as mentioned above the high school I went to was quite good for a public school). Lots of religion all around (but again, most of the people I grew up with are atheist/agnostic and they don't have problems living their lives). Bland cookie cutter shopping centers (which seem to be in every city these days). I wouldnt move back because my life is here now, but it's not some backwards wasteland devoid of culture.
posted by downtohisturtles at 12:26 PM on December 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I have done the "big city lefty moves to small town flyover country" thing. Mine was Huntsville, Alabama. Which was sold to me as "Okay, sure, it's Alabama, but this is a place with rocket scientists and people that work for NASA and engineers." Which may be true, but they stay on the base or something because I never met any.
The cost of living was great. We had an apartment so big we literally had no idea what to do with all the space. I had a dedicated weightlifting gym in the living room because we didn't even have enough furniture to fill it.
The downsides were things like:
All those "crazy Alabama political ads" everyone would be laughing at on The Daily Show were our every day reality, both on TV and politically.
The blithe assumption you went to church and the suspicion if you didn't go to one
Literally the only place I've had someone nonironically complain about me playing "devil music." (It was EDM, it's not like I was blasting Slayer).
Had someone try to run me off the road for not driving a pickup truck and having California plates (I didn't have any political bumper stickers).
Fox News on literally everywhere. Including the airport on a giant wall of TVs when you got off the plane.
Now there are lots of places in the south and middle of the country that actually are pretty liberal. I finally had to move back home to New Orleans, which I don't think counts as much, but my girl doesn't get harassed on the street as much as in Seattle and there are way fewer open Nazis. We can make it work here.
But sometimes the reason the cost of living is low is nobody wants to live there.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:30 PM on December 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
The cost of living was great. We had an apartment so big we literally had no idea what to do with all the space. I had a dedicated weightlifting gym in the living room because we didn't even have enough furniture to fill it.
The downsides were things like:
All those "crazy Alabama political ads" everyone would be laughing at on The Daily Show were our every day reality, both on TV and politically.
The blithe assumption you went to church and the suspicion if you didn't go to one
Literally the only place I've had someone nonironically complain about me playing "devil music." (It was EDM, it's not like I was blasting Slayer).
Had someone try to run me off the road for not driving a pickup truck and having California plates (I didn't have any political bumper stickers).
Fox News on literally everywhere. Including the airport on a giant wall of TVs when you got off the plane.
Now there are lots of places in the south and middle of the country that actually are pretty liberal. I finally had to move back home to New Orleans, which I don't think counts as much, but my girl doesn't get harassed on the street as much as in Seattle and there are way fewer open Nazis. We can make it work here.
But sometimes the reason the cost of living is low is nobody wants to live there.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:30 PM on December 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
Had someone try to run me off the road for not driving a pickup truck and having California plates (I didn't have any political bumper stickers).
JESUS.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 12:32 PM on December 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
JESUS.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 12:32 PM on December 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
when everyone -- of every race, gender, sexuality -- from liberal parts of America has been happily flooding into Austin, Texas.
Austin did already have something of a reputation when that began happening. Texas, perhaps by dint of its size, has a few even beyond Austin -- San Antonio is pretty darn welcoming of queer folks, for example. But Texas overall is still pretty unwelcoming, and no place in Oklahoma that I know has anything similar -- very few 'red' states have anything similar.
Literally the only place I've had someone nonironically complain about me playing "devil music." (It was EDM, it's not like I was blasting Slayer)
okay but EDM literally is the devil's own music; if there is a devil in this day and age i would entirely expect him to appear in the guise of an EDM bro, sorry not sorry
posted by halation at 12:37 PM on December 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Austin did already have something of a reputation when that began happening. Texas, perhaps by dint of its size, has a few even beyond Austin -- San Antonio is pretty darn welcoming of queer folks, for example. But Texas overall is still pretty unwelcoming, and no place in Oklahoma that I know has anything similar -- very few 'red' states have anything similar.
Literally the only place I've had someone nonironically complain about me playing "devil music." (It was EDM, it's not like I was blasting Slayer)
okay but EDM literally is the devil's own music; if there is a devil in this day and age i would entirely expect him to appear in the guise of an EDM bro, sorry not sorry
posted by halation at 12:37 PM on December 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
There are two reasons I don't live in Tulsa:
1. I'm a user experience designer. I've run design teams, managed people. There are literally no jobs for me in Tulsa, not at my level.
2. My kid is non-binary. And despite the growing acceptance of the LGB part of the acronym (rooted in Tulsa's surprisingly old and robust gay community), the T part is very, very much not. And especially given my options for quality education would be the two Catholic schools, I don't like the options.
There are other reasons, of course. My total summer power bill in Seattle is less than my brother pays in the whole month of June in Tulsa. I grew up in a time when the weird, smart kids were bullied into oblivion and I don't want to relive that. I'm politically very liberal, and Tulsa has voted at supermajority levels for the last 5 Republican candidates. And... family issues.
But for me it comes down to those two problems: No economic opportunity for me, and questions of my child's safety level and whether they can thrive in that environment.
posted by dw at 1:25 PM on December 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
1. I'm a user experience designer. I've run design teams, managed people. There are literally no jobs for me in Tulsa, not at my level.
2. My kid is non-binary. And despite the growing acceptance of the LGB part of the acronym (rooted in Tulsa's surprisingly old and robust gay community), the T part is very, very much not. And especially given my options for quality education would be the two Catholic schools, I don't like the options.
There are other reasons, of course. My total summer power bill in Seattle is less than my brother pays in the whole month of June in Tulsa. I grew up in a time when the weird, smart kids were bullied into oblivion and I don't want to relive that. I'm politically very liberal, and Tulsa has voted at supermajority levels for the last 5 Republican candidates. And... family issues.
But for me it comes down to those two problems: No economic opportunity for me, and questions of my child's safety level and whether they can thrive in that environment.
posted by dw at 1:25 PM on December 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
I applied. I was planning to move to Ohio in July anyway, why not take a little detour and beef up my savings in the process?
posted by palomar at 2:07 PM on December 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by palomar at 2:07 PM on December 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
Good luck palomar! I think it would be neat to have an embedded Mefite in the burgeoning Tulsa Arts District.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 3:57 PM on December 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 3:57 PM on December 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
Me, too! Let us know if you’re accepted. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 4:08 PM on December 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 4:08 PM on December 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
This thread is a pretty interesting start/ one angle to a much bigger conversation that needs to be had, nationally, about how to re urbanise the country. You can make non eastwest coastal cultural enclaves places with high quality of life, and it would probably cost less than all the money we re paying Jeff Bezos and Exxon, and all the rest, to play overlord.
It s fascinating to me how rural folks are very bitter about the lack of of cultural development, which leads to their kids leaving for the cities, which becomes fuel for the culture wars that corporate powers are using to retain republican control of governments.
Surely there are ways to talk to those of us in rural areas about how liberal austerity and conservative white nationalist politics costs us greatly, both in terms of our families, and the loss of economic development from rural dominant states.
Deepening this conversation won t necessary come from local Tulsa government, like this initiative. This initiative seems to come directly from oil and gas thinking. that industry is really good at excluding demands from anyone not a part of their single white male workforce. In a way, this initiative is making the city a kind of oilfield, with man camps and prostitution that follow such.
I think the culture of the tech industry is such that people don t want to live in man camps. But Too bad there aren t any unions with the national reach and depth of membership to facilitate the workers demands, and strengthen this proposal.
posted by eustatic at 4:26 PM on December 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
It s fascinating to me how rural folks are very bitter about the lack of of cultural development, which leads to their kids leaving for the cities, which becomes fuel for the culture wars that corporate powers are using to retain republican control of governments.
Surely there are ways to talk to those of us in rural areas about how liberal austerity and conservative white nationalist politics costs us greatly, both in terms of our families, and the loss of economic development from rural dominant states.
Deepening this conversation won t necessary come from local Tulsa government, like this initiative. This initiative seems to come directly from oil and gas thinking. that industry is really good at excluding demands from anyone not a part of their single white male workforce. In a way, this initiative is making the city a kind of oilfield, with man camps and prostitution that follow such.
I think the culture of the tech industry is such that people don t want to live in man camps. But Too bad there aren t any unions with the national reach and depth of membership to facilitate the workers demands, and strengthen this proposal.
posted by eustatic at 4:26 PM on December 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Tulsa has one of the largest Unitarian Universalist congregations in the county with over 2,000 members. I don't know if that's a factor of people banding together to create a liberal community in a very conservative place, but it's the only UU mega church that I've heard of.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 4:30 PM on December 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 4:30 PM on December 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
I totally believe it's a great deal for people who already work remotely and live on the coasts, but I'm not sure it's actually a good deal for the local population
Maybe not, but it seems like there's probably not the votes or political will (same thing) to do anything more sweeping, so... best not to let the perfect be the enemy of the merely good?
You can either wait for the FYGM crowd to die, which is admittedly a guaranteed strategy, or you can do what you can with private funds and other stuff around the edges. This seems like a not-bad attempt at the latter.
My concern would be that too many of the people they're going to lure with the $10k are going to be basically tech-nomad types who don't put down roots, and are going to be gone after that year is up. The money might have been better put towards recruiting a smaller number of people and giving them the same amount towards a down payment on a house. (Not only because the house in itself is an anchor, but people who buy houses are more likely to have families and be less interested in moving away after a year.) But without running the experiment, it's hard to say for sure. Hopefully they are collecting data as they run the program so we can see whether or not it's successful and collectively learn from it.
posted by Kadin2048 at 5:15 PM on December 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Maybe not, but it seems like there's probably not the votes or political will (same thing) to do anything more sweeping, so... best not to let the perfect be the enemy of the merely good?
You can either wait for the FYGM crowd to die, which is admittedly a guaranteed strategy, or you can do what you can with private funds and other stuff around the edges. This seems like a not-bad attempt at the latter.
My concern would be that too many of the people they're going to lure with the $10k are going to be basically tech-nomad types who don't put down roots, and are going to be gone after that year is up. The money might have been better put towards recruiting a smaller number of people and giving them the same amount towards a down payment on a house. (Not only because the house in itself is an anchor, but people who buy houses are more likely to have families and be less interested in moving away after a year.) But without running the experiment, it's hard to say for sure. Hopefully they are collecting data as they run the program so we can see whether or not it's successful and collectively learn from it.
posted by Kadin2048 at 5:15 PM on December 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I do remote work. I doubt I'm at the expertise-and-income-level this program is recruiting for, though because $10K is well above what I'd consider a mere relocation package. $10K is a huge sum to me, enough to be tempting despite my wariness
The relocation package I was offered a year ago had the phrase 'Standard Relocation Package' at the top. It paid for:
- two months rent plus security deposit for lease cancellation, or help selling your home
- air fare (or if you drive, mileage) to new location for your family, plus meals
- full pack, truck and unpack movers, including 1 car (2 if you bring family)
- 'relocation allowance' equal to 1 months salary
- 45 days temp housing, plus rental car
- a tour of the area plus home finding assistance
- salary gross up so that all of this is basically tax-free
Final total is on the order of $25k. And in terms of local pay scale, I expect I'm on the upper end of my current classification, but the next step down is paid hourly.
$10k is... nice. Certainly better than the 'no more than $3k' I got from the State of Oregon. But tech companies throw a ton of money out to recruit and retain talent. It's not exclusively STEM either -- while at this exact moment my department is not hiring writers, we are hiring an editorial manager and have a pool of writers across a variety of languages.
posted by pwnguin at 5:51 PM on December 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
The relocation package I was offered a year ago had the phrase 'Standard Relocation Package' at the top. It paid for:
- two months rent plus security deposit for lease cancellation, or help selling your home
- air fare (or if you drive, mileage) to new location for your family, plus meals
- full pack, truck and unpack movers, including 1 car (2 if you bring family)
- 'relocation allowance' equal to 1 months salary
- 45 days temp housing, plus rental car
- a tour of the area plus home finding assistance
- salary gross up so that all of this is basically tax-free
Final total is on the order of $25k. And in terms of local pay scale, I expect I'm on the upper end of my current classification, but the next step down is paid hourly.
$10k is... nice. Certainly better than the 'no more than $3k' I got from the State of Oregon. But tech companies throw a ton of money out to recruit and retain talent. It's not exclusively STEM either -- while at this exact moment my department is not hiring writers, we are hiring an editorial manager and have a pool of writers across a variety of languages.
posted by pwnguin at 5:51 PM on December 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
I live in Tulsa, and I have to say that as someone born and raised in Chicago, I can't think of a better place for a young family. We live midtown a few miles from the downtown area. The diversity where we're at is terrific and our kids go to the best public school in OK.
We speak Chinese, Spanish, (and English) at our house and the kids have school classes that reinforce those. Sure, it's not Montessori but the teachers are excellent and facilities are good. We're half a klick from Riverparks which we ride every day on our bikes and has 40 miles of good biking or walking. We're close to Turkey Mnt, which sadly isn't a real mountain but ... has some lovely hiking and mountain biking.
I travel for my work, so we could live anywhere but this city has been good to us. Our mortgage for a good house and decent land is a quarter of what I paid for a crappy Chicago apt. Crime is low, overall. Costs are too. Yes, it's a red state, which we do not like but the demographics are rapidly shifting and that'll change in due time. Are there "hicks" and racists? Sure. But the rural people, in general, are good people and the racist nutjobs are easy to spot and not tolerated in Tulsa. The city govt is as progressive as can be in an area like this.
We've got great dimsum. Solid Ethiopian. Wonderful Mexican places that aren't mere americanized Tex-mex. I've got Pakistani neighbors we love and wonderful Cuban family across the road who are kind enough not to laugh at my Argentinian-accented spanish. Yes, the issue of LGBT acceptance is still sticky here, but people are far more accepting than most would think. The issue in Tulsa is that since everyone and their dog goes to church, people tend to split off their public persona vs their private views. That's shifting more and more as the old style Pentecostal and WOF churches lose ground here and are replaced by loving and inclusive congregations.
All in all, people do far far worse than Tulsa.
PS: As DW said further upthread, the Gathering Place is insanely good and is only the first phase in Kaiser's project for helping Tulsa.
posted by damiano99 at 9:30 PM on December 30, 2018 [23 favorites]
We speak Chinese, Spanish, (and English) at our house and the kids have school classes that reinforce those. Sure, it's not Montessori but the teachers are excellent and facilities are good. We're half a klick from Riverparks which we ride every day on our bikes and has 40 miles of good biking or walking. We're close to Turkey Mnt, which sadly isn't a real mountain but ... has some lovely hiking and mountain biking.
I travel for my work, so we could live anywhere but this city has been good to us. Our mortgage for a good house and decent land is a quarter of what I paid for a crappy Chicago apt. Crime is low, overall. Costs are too. Yes, it's a red state, which we do not like but the demographics are rapidly shifting and that'll change in due time. Are there "hicks" and racists? Sure. But the rural people, in general, are good people and the racist nutjobs are easy to spot and not tolerated in Tulsa. The city govt is as progressive as can be in an area like this.
We've got great dimsum. Solid Ethiopian. Wonderful Mexican places that aren't mere americanized Tex-mex. I've got Pakistani neighbors we love and wonderful Cuban family across the road who are kind enough not to laugh at my Argentinian-accented spanish. Yes, the issue of LGBT acceptance is still sticky here, but people are far more accepting than most would think. The issue in Tulsa is that since everyone and their dog goes to church, people tend to split off their public persona vs their private views. That's shifting more and more as the old style Pentecostal and WOF churches lose ground here and are replaced by loving and inclusive congregations.
All in all, people do far far worse than Tulsa.
PS: As DW said further upthread, the Gathering Place is insanely good and is only the first phase in Kaiser's project for helping Tulsa.
posted by damiano99 at 9:30 PM on December 30, 2018 [23 favorites]
Are people honestly convinced that some new dawn of urban goodness is going to come to Tulsa via twenty five people moving to town? Because that is what TFA says: there are 25 slots. I don't have the most comprehensive understanding of how urban renewal works, but I find it hard to believe a couple of dozen people would do the trick.
Are y'all just not reading this part? Or are people hoping for some kind of unspecified snowball effect?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:07 AM on December 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
Are y'all just not reading this part? Or are people hoping for some kind of unspecified snowball effect?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:07 AM on December 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
Well, 25 people, assuming each are making around $100k (which I think are the type of people they want, setting aside whether they're going to actually recruit that sort of highly-compensated tech worker), is a potential $2.5M p.a. injection into the local economy. Less savings and whatever they spend buying stuff from Amazon, of course—though even Amazon hires delivery drivers.
That's probably good enough for a couple new local businesses and some other knock-on effects.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:32 AM on December 31, 2018
That's probably good enough for a couple new local businesses and some other knock-on effects.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:32 AM on December 31, 2018
The broader discussion is, I think, how to reurbanize sections of the country.
posted by The Whelk at 10:08 AM on December 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 10:08 AM on December 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
If this program is successful in attracting people, and uses up all 25 slots, then I bet there would be a new program with more slots. Especially if it appears to be good for the community as a whole, then some others might join in funding the program.
One can dream big.
posted by Midnight Skulker at 10:14 AM on December 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
One can dream big.
posted by Midnight Skulker at 10:14 AM on December 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Tulsa isn't terrible! I spent about a month working remotely from there a few years ago, more or less on a lark.
There's lots of good vintage shopping, friendly people, decent live music, etc. When I was there, Gathering Place was still under construction, and the Dylan archive wasn't there yet, but the Gilcrease and Philbrook museums are both pretty good and really the only places I've seen much contemporary Native American art. I saw a racially integrated rodeo, apparently still a rarity, at the fairgrounds with that iconic oilman statue. The jazz museum in an old train station is beautiful.
Oral Roberts University is aesthetically fascinating, from the giant sculpture of Oral's praying hands to the Gonzo modernist lookout/prayer tower, where the observation deck is wrapped in spikes that represent the crown of thorns. The University of Tulsa has some plaques with dour quotes from oil tycoons about the value of discipline and hard work, and there are some cool art deco buildings downtown. Cain's Ballroom, which used to host the country swing musician Bob Wills, is fun to see.
Tulsa would be a fun getaway for an adventurous couple or solo traveler, on par with Duluth or Providence. There are cheap Southwest flights and it's on Historic Route 66. Public transit is basically nonexistent, but there's Uber and Lyft and Tulsa drivers are sane and courteous. Sidewalks are everywhere. I've never known anyone else who went to Tulsa for fun, and I think that's a shame.
Food I found a bit iffy: There are certainly good restaurants, but there are also a lot of bad and bland ones that wouldn't make it in a bigger city. Lots of mediocre burger places, and shops selling stuff like cinnamon chili dogs and grilled bologna. Asking locals for recommendations is important.
There's a weird lunch restaurant owned by an old hippie guy who dresses like a Twin Peaks dream character and only serves one item: a three course meal of shrimp cocktail, a cheeseburger and some kind of brownie. If you try to skip a course, he will ban you from the restaurant.
There's a bar called Goodbye Yellow Brick Road across from a head shop called Oz. They're not affiliated with each other. The hip bowling alley is called Dust Bowl.
Bars and cafes are plentiful, interesting and friendly, although it looks like a lot of the ones that only served 3.2% beer (and no wine or liquor) are getting replaced. Some people are really into Rumpelminze for some reason.
Oh, and a stranger drove up to me in a parking lot, falsely accused me of trying to burglarize his house and threatened to shoot me if I returned. Some other strangers also invited me to their cousin's house trying to set me up with her, but she was drunk and belligerent and called me an ethnic slur. She softened up when I talked to her about Steel Magnolias, since the VHS was on the floor, but I still left after one drink.
posted by smelendez at 10:22 AM on December 31, 2018 [11 favorites]
There's lots of good vintage shopping, friendly people, decent live music, etc. When I was there, Gathering Place was still under construction, and the Dylan archive wasn't there yet, but the Gilcrease and Philbrook museums are both pretty good and really the only places I've seen much contemporary Native American art. I saw a racially integrated rodeo, apparently still a rarity, at the fairgrounds with that iconic oilman statue. The jazz museum in an old train station is beautiful.
Oral Roberts University is aesthetically fascinating, from the giant sculpture of Oral's praying hands to the Gonzo modernist lookout/prayer tower, where the observation deck is wrapped in spikes that represent the crown of thorns. The University of Tulsa has some plaques with dour quotes from oil tycoons about the value of discipline and hard work, and there are some cool art deco buildings downtown. Cain's Ballroom, which used to host the country swing musician Bob Wills, is fun to see.
Tulsa would be a fun getaway for an adventurous couple or solo traveler, on par with Duluth or Providence. There are cheap Southwest flights and it's on Historic Route 66. Public transit is basically nonexistent, but there's Uber and Lyft and Tulsa drivers are sane and courteous. Sidewalks are everywhere. I've never known anyone else who went to Tulsa for fun, and I think that's a shame.
Food I found a bit iffy: There are certainly good restaurants, but there are also a lot of bad and bland ones that wouldn't make it in a bigger city. Lots of mediocre burger places, and shops selling stuff like cinnamon chili dogs and grilled bologna. Asking locals for recommendations is important.
There's a weird lunch restaurant owned by an old hippie guy who dresses like a Twin Peaks dream character and only serves one item: a three course meal of shrimp cocktail, a cheeseburger and some kind of brownie. If you try to skip a course, he will ban you from the restaurant.
There's a bar called Goodbye Yellow Brick Road across from a head shop called Oz. They're not affiliated with each other. The hip bowling alley is called Dust Bowl.
Bars and cafes are plentiful, interesting and friendly, although it looks like a lot of the ones that only served 3.2% beer (and no wine or liquor) are getting replaced. Some people are really into Rumpelminze for some reason.
Oh, and a stranger drove up to me in a parking lot, falsely accused me of trying to burglarize his house and threatened to shoot me if I returned. Some other strangers also invited me to their cousin's house trying to set me up with her, but she was drunk and belligerent and called me an ethnic slur. She softened up when I talked to her about Steel Magnolias, since the VHS was on the floor, but I still left after one drink.
posted by smelendez at 10:22 AM on December 31, 2018 [11 favorites]
Sounds 100% legit.
posted by wierdo at 12:50 PM on December 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by wierdo at 12:50 PM on December 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
There's a weird lunch restaurant owned by an old hippie guy who dresses like a Twin Peaks dream character and only serves one item: a three course meal of shrimp cocktail, a cheeseburger and some kind of brownie. If you try to skip a course, he will ban you from the restaurant.
Thanks to smelendez, Tulsa is now on my bucket list. Until this moment, I did not have a bucket list. If I make it there, I will organize a MeFite meetup because that is basically all I want to do these days anyway, travel to new places and while I am there meet some MeFites. Tulsa sounds like a great place to go as a tourist. Well, my kind of tourist, which mostly involves thrift stores and odd lunches. Thanks, smelendez!
posted by Bella Donna at 4:40 PM on December 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
Thanks to smelendez, Tulsa is now on my bucket list. Until this moment, I did not have a bucket list. If I make it there, I will organize a MeFite meetup because that is basically all I want to do these days anyway, travel to new places and while I am there meet some MeFites. Tulsa sounds like a great place to go as a tourist. Well, my kind of tourist, which mostly involves thrift stores and odd lunches. Thanks, smelendez!
posted by Bella Donna at 4:40 PM on December 31, 2018 [5 favorites]
Food I found a bit iffy: There are certainly good restaurants, but there are also a lot of bad and bland ones that wouldn't make it in a bigger city. Lots of mediocre burger places, and shops selling stuff like cinnamon chili dogs and grilled bologna. Asking locals for recommendations is important.
One, how DARE you criticize grilled bologna. OTOH, yeah, compared to BBQ bologna it's iffy. Yes, BBQ bologna. Smoked and served in slices. It's... surprisingly good.
Tulsa's restaurant scene will never be something to write home about, but there are moments of the sublime: A wet burrito at El Rio Verde, an old fashioned chicken fried steak (and two sides) from Nelson's, BBQ from any of the shacks and garages around town, and heck, the weirdass coneys from Coney I-Lander that are like someone tried to redeem Cincinnati chili.
You don't go to Tulsa to eat health food. The diabetes supply company commercials during the local newscasts are a constant reminder of that.
posted by dw at 6:07 PM on December 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
One, how DARE you criticize grilled bologna. OTOH, yeah, compared to BBQ bologna it's iffy. Yes, BBQ bologna. Smoked and served in slices. It's... surprisingly good.
Tulsa's restaurant scene will never be something to write home about, but there are moments of the sublime: A wet burrito at El Rio Verde, an old fashioned chicken fried steak (and two sides) from Nelson's, BBQ from any of the shacks and garages around town, and heck, the weirdass coneys from Coney I-Lander that are like someone tried to redeem Cincinnati chili.
You don't go to Tulsa to eat health food. The diabetes supply company commercials during the local newscasts are a constant reminder of that.
posted by dw at 6:07 PM on December 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
One thing that nobody has covered yet is the issue that when you work remotely, you still have to INTERVIEW in person. And if you work remotely, you'll be laid off ore taken on as a contractor more often than otherwise.
Here's how it works in Vermont: you take a bus to Boston. Even at busy times, there are cheap hotel rooms near commuter rail stops in the burbs, so you can do it frugally, and interview in as many places in Boston as you can. Since you're in VT, you can do it on short notice. AND... the same applies to NYC. This is already a thing even before the incentive scheme.
In Tulsa, what are you going to do? Run up frequent flier miles when you're between jobs? Your other expenses better be REAL low.
posted by ocschwar at 8:58 PM on December 31, 2018
Here's how it works in Vermont: you take a bus to Boston. Even at busy times, there are cheap hotel rooms near commuter rail stops in the burbs, so you can do it frugally, and interview in as many places in Boston as you can. Since you're in VT, you can do it on short notice. AND... the same applies to NYC. This is already a thing even before the incentive scheme.
In Tulsa, what are you going to do? Run up frequent flier miles when you're between jobs? Your other expenses better be REAL low.
posted by ocschwar at 8:58 PM on December 31, 2018
$10,000 will pay for a lot of Southwest flights to Dallas, Austin, Houston, Kansas City, St. Louis, or Denver. If you've got a car or can rent one, Dallas and KC are easy day trips for even less money.
Again, despite stereotypes, Tulsa is near enough to a lot of the country and has pretty damn good airline connectivity for its size. Not sure if AA is still doing nonstops to La Guardia, though. Normally I discount airline travel, but when you can reliabily arrive at the airport half an hour before departure and have plenty of time, it's not so bad. Plus, it's relatively close to town. My perennially late SO wouldn't leave the house until half an hour before departure, I'd drop her with 15-20 minutes to go, and she'd make the flight every time, much to the detriment of my stress level.
TBH, the extra time in life from not having to sit in traffic and not having to arrive so stupidly early at the airport is probably the thing I miss most about Tulsa. That and the quiet. I could really do with some of that right now.
posted by wierdo at 10:44 PM on December 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
Again, despite stereotypes, Tulsa is near enough to a lot of the country and has pretty damn good airline connectivity for its size. Not sure if AA is still doing nonstops to La Guardia, though. Normally I discount airline travel, but when you can reliabily arrive at the airport half an hour before departure and have plenty of time, it's not so bad. Plus, it's relatively close to town. My perennially late SO wouldn't leave the house until half an hour before departure, I'd drop her with 15-20 minutes to go, and she'd make the flight every time, much to the detriment of my stress level.
TBH, the extra time in life from not having to sit in traffic and not having to arrive so stupidly early at the airport is probably the thing I miss most about Tulsa. That and the quiet. I could really do with some of that right now.
posted by wierdo at 10:44 PM on December 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
In Tulsa, what are you going to do? Run up frequent flier miles when you're between jobs? Your other expenses better be REAL low.
Remote programming jobs I've looked at would all pay for you to fly in for the day/overnight for an interview.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 2:37 PM on January 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Remote programming jobs I've looked at would all pay for you to fly in for the day/overnight for an interview.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 2:37 PM on January 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
The reality is that every individual will have a different experience. There are around 400K people in Tulsa. Each lives in their own version of the city.
We can only speak to our individual life experiences in a place. What someone else will experience depends on a lot of factors, some under their control, some not, some purely a matter of chance and timing.
Having said that, I think that:
(A) it's misleading to assert that it's possible to live in Tulsa and not be affected by the rest of Oklahoma. For Oklahoma, Tulsa may be relatively tolerant/open to LGBTQ people and non-whites. But it doesn't exist in a bubble. The reverse, of course, holds true for places like San Fransisco. As noted upthread, much of California is middle-of-the-road or even conservative culturally in a way that would be familiar to people from the Midwest.
(B) Just as it's unfair to dismiss the positive experiences of people who live in a place like Tulsa, it's unfair to dismiss the negative experiences of other people. And when the negatives are largely reported by individuals who do not have the option of blending into a white, cis, heterosexual, tokenly Christian environment, then it suggests that systemic prejudice and issues continue to exist, which should be acknowledged by anyone considering a move to such a place.
N.B. - my personal experience is with other parts of Oklahoma. I've only been to Tulsa a couple of times. I just think it's worth taking a step back and reminding ourselves that we're talking individual experiences and trying to extrapolate general trends, and that it's easy from the PoV of someone who doesn't transgress boundaries to write off the negative impressions of those who do. Having grown up in the first camp and now being headed for the second, with lots of similar acquaintances, I'm painfully aware of the difference.
posted by allium cepa at 4:06 PM on January 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
We can only speak to our individual life experiences in a place. What someone else will experience depends on a lot of factors, some under their control, some not, some purely a matter of chance and timing.
Having said that, I think that:
(A) it's misleading to assert that it's possible to live in Tulsa and not be affected by the rest of Oklahoma. For Oklahoma, Tulsa may be relatively tolerant/open to LGBTQ people and non-whites. But it doesn't exist in a bubble. The reverse, of course, holds true for places like San Fransisco. As noted upthread, much of California is middle-of-the-road or even conservative culturally in a way that would be familiar to people from the Midwest.
(B) Just as it's unfair to dismiss the positive experiences of people who live in a place like Tulsa, it's unfair to dismiss the negative experiences of other people. And when the negatives are largely reported by individuals who do not have the option of blending into a white, cis, heterosexual, tokenly Christian environment, then it suggests that systemic prejudice and issues continue to exist, which should be acknowledged by anyone considering a move to such a place.
N.B. - my personal experience is with other parts of Oklahoma. I've only been to Tulsa a couple of times. I just think it's worth taking a step back and reminding ourselves that we're talking individual experiences and trying to extrapolate general trends, and that it's easy from the PoV of someone who doesn't transgress boundaries to write off the negative impressions of those who do. Having grown up in the first camp and now being headed for the second, with lots of similar acquaintances, I'm painfully aware of the difference.
posted by allium cepa at 4:06 PM on January 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
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