With teeny tiny xGB hard drives
June 17, 2002 5:16 PM Subscribe
With teeny tiny xGB hard drives like the Archos line available, why do PDAs/handhelds have such small memory capacity? The gorgeous new Sony Clie has a mere 16 MB to its name, and most PocketPCs top out around 64MB. When do you think we'll see handheld devices that really parallel the capabilities of a desktop computer?
When you go spend another five minutes looking for them. E.g. IBM MicroDrives are a decent storage solution for PocketPCs. Oqo's claim to be a true Pocket PC.
posted by badstone at 5:25 PM on June 17, 2002
posted by badstone at 5:25 PM on June 17, 2002
I would say that the reason PDAs don't have larger capacities is that they don't need to. They're not meant as storage or transfer devices. That's what portable hard drives are for. The PDA is meant to keep track of various kinds of information, none of which take up particularly large amounts of space.
I'd also venture the guess that the hard drives suck up a lot more power(=battery life) than the memory used currently.
posted by Su at 5:26 PM on June 17, 2002
I'd also venture the guess that the hard drives suck up a lot more power(=battery life) than the memory used currently.
posted by Su at 5:26 PM on June 17, 2002
When do you think we'll see handheld devices that really parallel the capabilities of a desktop computer?
The question is, do we need that much power in a handheld? If your gonna be doing Herculean computing tasks in an enviorment that calls for something portable, why not just get a lightweight laptop? I'm not trying to be snarky here, I've sold both types of machines in my day and I kinda considered them made for different purposes. The PDA was all about effeiciency in the smallest package whereas the laptop was about taking the power of the desktop with you. Now, it's kinda taken as a given that laptop PC's will be technology-wise about a year behind the desktop, so it's not unreasonable to figure a PDA would be even further back.
Now I say this as someone who does not own a laptop, a PDA or even a cell phone and who has no desire to(I'm not a Luddite, obviously I just like keeping my tech at home), so I may be completely wrong in what people want from these machines, but that's my 2 cents.
posted by jonmc at 5:27 PM on June 17, 2002
The question is, do we need that much power in a handheld? If your gonna be doing Herculean computing tasks in an enviorment that calls for something portable, why not just get a lightweight laptop? I'm not trying to be snarky here, I've sold both types of machines in my day and I kinda considered them made for different purposes. The PDA was all about effeiciency in the smallest package whereas the laptop was about taking the power of the desktop with you. Now, it's kinda taken as a given that laptop PC's will be technology-wise about a year behind the desktop, so it's not unreasonable to figure a PDA would be even further back.
Now I say this as someone who does not own a laptop, a PDA or even a cell phone and who has no desire to(I'm not a Luddite, obviously I just like keeping my tech at home), so I may be completely wrong in what people want from these machines, but that's my 2 cents.
posted by jonmc at 5:27 PM on June 17, 2002
The trick is not to apply the paradigm of memory vs. storage to a handheld computer. Your 20 GB of storage in an Archos or Nomad 3 isn't loaded into main memory all at once, and doesn't need to be, whereas in PDAs — or at least in Palm OS PDAs, since I don't know Pocket PC — the memory is the storage and vice versa. Everything on my 8 MB Palm m505, for example, is loaded into memory at once. Though you can't multitask, everything stays the way you left it. Games I abandoned partway through months ago — balls in mid-flight, even — I can pick up again with no difficulty. (This does not apply to memory cards, though; memory card support in the Palm OS is a bit of a hack.)
posted by mcwetboy at 5:35 PM on June 17, 2002
posted by mcwetboy at 5:35 PM on June 17, 2002
Archos products use laptop hard drives. The drive takes up almost all of the space in the unit (those things are tightly packed). PDAs unfortunately need that space for other things. Other people have already mentioned the Microdrive, usable in any device that supports Type II Compact Flash cards, which includes many PDAs.
As for your last question, PDAs already do parallel the capabilities of a desktop computer... It's silly to think that a handheld will ever be a match for a desktop unit, unless miniaturization goes so far that adding space onto a handheld-sized unit won't allow for any increase in performance whatsoever.
posted by whatnotever at 5:36 PM on June 17, 2002
As for your last question, PDAs already do parallel the capabilities of a desktop computer... It's silly to think that a handheld will ever be a match for a desktop unit, unless miniaturization goes so far that adding space onto a handheld-sized unit won't allow for any increase in performance whatsoever.
posted by whatnotever at 5:36 PM on June 17, 2002
If your gonna be doing Herculean computing tasks in an enviorment that calls for something portable, why not just get a lightweight laptop?
Because laptops assume an available lap. The point of handhelds (or hands free machines) is to be able to compute anywhere. It's silly to remain intent on shackling people to sedentary positions. Computers should be available when needed, where they're needed, and then they should disappear.
posted by badstone at 5:40 PM on June 17, 2002
Because laptops assume an available lap. The point of handhelds (or hands free machines) is to be able to compute anywhere. It's silly to remain intent on shackling people to sedentary positions. Computers should be available when needed, where they're needed, and then they should disappear.
posted by badstone at 5:40 PM on June 17, 2002
The question is, do we need that much power in a handheld?
Maybe not, but at $600 for the Clie, it seems like you should get more than 16 MB for your money. The Archos 20GB drive is $200. I know it's apples and oranges, but I'd like some fruit salad.
I've been shopping for a PDA steadily over the past two weeks. I want something that I can hook up to an external fullsize keyboard (like a Stowaway or a GoType) and use for word processing & office productivity type stuff. The power and bulk of a laptop would be overkill, but I'd like something that's attractive and expandable, and I've been a little disappointed at the relative puniness of most handhelds. (A related problem is that a lot of the higher-end PocketPCs I considered didn't have compatible external keyboards, eg, the Sharp Zaurus.)
The OQO that badstone pointed out looks awesome, but who knows when it will really be available (or what it will cost)...
posted by Zettai at 6:10 PM on June 17, 2002
Maybe not, but at $600 for the Clie, it seems like you should get more than 16 MB for your money. The Archos 20GB drive is $200. I know it's apples and oranges, but I'd like some fruit salad.
I've been shopping for a PDA steadily over the past two weeks. I want something that I can hook up to an external fullsize keyboard (like a Stowaway or a GoType) and use for word processing & office productivity type stuff. The power and bulk of a laptop would be overkill, but I'd like something that's attractive and expandable, and I've been a little disappointed at the relative puniness of most handhelds. (A related problem is that a lot of the higher-end PocketPCs I considered didn't have compatible external keyboards, eg, the Sharp Zaurus.)
The OQO that badstone pointed out looks awesome, but who knows when it will really be available (or what it will cost)...
posted by Zettai at 6:10 PM on June 17, 2002
It's a matter of perspective, isn't it? Even the oldest Palm Pilot significantly outperforms the "antique" IBM AT I have stashed in a closet. And that machine did things I could only have dreamed of with my TRS 80 III.
I suspect that the first few iterations of any newer, faster computer hardware are not going to place a huge emphasis on the magnitude of miniaturization needed for handheld computing applications.
posted by John Smallberries at 6:13 PM on June 17, 2002
I suspect that the first few iterations of any newer, faster computer hardware are not going to place a huge emphasis on the magnitude of miniaturization needed for handheld computing applications.
posted by John Smallberries at 6:13 PM on June 17, 2002
When do you think we'll see handheld devices that really parallel the capabilities of a desktop computer?
I've noticed that a growing number of people are giving up their handheld devices in favor of small laptops (mostly iBooks). The form factor isn't nearly as small and the battery life isn't as long (although you can get 3-4 hours out of a full battery in an iBook), but the advantages to having access to all your data, your applications, a large display, and a full-size keyboard are great. And they slip easily into a shoulder bag, backpack, or large purse. Given the currently available technology and hardware, might the small laptop be the machine of choice for computer users on the go?
posted by jkottke at 6:13 PM on June 17, 2002
I've noticed that a growing number of people are giving up their handheld devices in favor of small laptops (mostly iBooks). The form factor isn't nearly as small and the battery life isn't as long (although you can get 3-4 hours out of a full battery in an iBook), but the advantages to having access to all your data, your applications, a large display, and a full-size keyboard are great. And they slip easily into a shoulder bag, backpack, or large purse. Given the currently available technology and hardware, might the small laptop be the machine of choice for computer users on the go?
posted by jkottke at 6:13 PM on June 17, 2002
It's a crying shame that Psion didn't have a clue about marketing its NetBook et al in North America. Those machines kick serious ass... but we'll never have access to them. Grrr.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:20 PM on June 17, 2002
posted by five fresh fish at 6:20 PM on June 17, 2002
If anyone's in the market for a PDA, I'd wait until Palm OS 5 comes out later this year. Because it's running on a completely different processor, people with a current Palm -- even the highest-end ones out now -- will *not* be able to run Palm OS5. If you wait, 1. you have the option of buying a really souped-up Palm and 2. if you just want to get your feet wet, I'm sure prices on *all* the Palms out now will be significantly lower when the new processers debut.
posted by metrocake at 6:44 PM on June 17, 2002
posted by metrocake at 6:44 PM on June 17, 2002
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the iPod. Hasn't anyone else noticed that it is stealthily becoming a PDA (contacts, upcoming calendar syncing), one with gargantuan (at least by PDA standards) memory?
posted by laz-e-boy at 6:48 PM on June 17, 2002
posted by laz-e-boy at 6:48 PM on June 17, 2002
If Bluetooth gets cheap and good enough your PDA ought to be able to access your pocket HD pretty transparently. And then the HD won't have to be actually in your hand. Put Bluetooth in an iPod and it would do what it does now just as well and it would also be plenty of storage for any PDF you're carrying. (Not to mention standardized wireless headphones.)
I'm geeking out here, but it just sounds cool. I bought a Clie 415 a couple months ago and I like it. I figure the next one I get will have Bluetooth. I'd guess it should be a sub $25 premium pretty soon.
posted by Wood at 7:11 PM on June 17, 2002
I'm geeking out here, but it just sounds cool. I bought a Clie 415 a couple months ago and I like it. I figure the next one I get will have Bluetooth. I'd guess it should be a sub $25 premium pretty soon.
posted by Wood at 7:11 PM on June 17, 2002
It makes sense that PDAs don't have hard drive capacities, part of their appeal is the battery life. But, and correct me if I'm wrong, they use flash memory, and it's cheap enough now that one should be able to expect between 256 megs and a gig in a $600.00 device. I mean, you can get one gig CF disks now for a couple hundred.
posted by Nothing at 9:58 PM on June 17, 2002
posted by Nothing at 9:58 PM on June 17, 2002
But, and correct me if I'm wrong, they use flash memory ...
As it turns out, they don't use flash memory, they use regular (dynamic) RAM; the reason you don't lose data when you 'turn off' the device is that the PDA is really just sleeping, running a trickle current through the RAM to keep it energized (and listening for interesting interruptions to the sleep cycle, like those pretty hardware buttons on the case).
The flash vs. DRAM discussion calls to mind another good advantage of DRAM over pretty much every other storage medium available: speed. Your PDA may not have much in the way of CPU speed (esp. if you have a current Palm OS device, although the newest Clie uses a double-speed processor at the cost of some battery life), access to your data is essentially instantaneous. When you press that "Address" button, your addresses are there. Boom. That's it. Flash is noticeably slower, especially when writing data (electrons have to be bashed into and out of tiny "cages", etc — these things take time), and a hard drive is much slower than that. (Ask anyone who uses an IBM Microdrive in his camera instead of Compact Flash, and she'll readily inform you that the delay she suffers while images are saved onto the drive is interminable.)
I'd bet that PDA makers will try to beef up their devices in coming months is via other technologies that are traditionally associated with PCs. Excellent example: the just-announced Toshiba e740, which (in addition to a super-value-size processor) has built-in 802.11b and VGA output (think "PowerPoint"). Let's see: battery drain, battery drain, battery drain. shudder
posted by dsandl at 10:49 PM on June 17, 2002
As it turns out, they don't use flash memory, they use regular (dynamic) RAM; the reason you don't lose data when you 'turn off' the device is that the PDA is really just sleeping, running a trickle current through the RAM to keep it energized (and listening for interesting interruptions to the sleep cycle, like those pretty hardware buttons on the case).
The flash vs. DRAM discussion calls to mind another good advantage of DRAM over pretty much every other storage medium available: speed. Your PDA may not have much in the way of CPU speed (esp. if you have a current Palm OS device, although the newest Clie uses a double-speed processor at the cost of some battery life), access to your data is essentially instantaneous. When you press that "Address" button, your addresses are there. Boom. That's it. Flash is noticeably slower, especially when writing data (electrons have to be bashed into and out of tiny "cages", etc — these things take time), and a hard drive is much slower than that. (Ask anyone who uses an IBM Microdrive in his camera instead of Compact Flash, and she'll readily inform you that the delay she suffers while images are saved onto the drive is interminable.)
I'd bet that PDA makers will try to beef up their devices in coming months is via other technologies that are traditionally associated with PCs. Excellent example: the just-announced Toshiba e740, which (in addition to a super-value-size processor) has built-in 802.11b and VGA output (think "PowerPoint"). Let's see: battery drain, battery drain, battery drain. shudder
posted by dsandl at 10:49 PM on June 17, 2002
Personally, I'd rather a Crusoe powered mini-notebook thingy like the Toshiba Libretto. Mmm. I'm bordering on getting one :)
posted by aki at 11:08 PM on June 17, 2002
posted by aki at 11:08 PM on June 17, 2002
I've noticed that a growing number of people are giving up their handheld devices in favor of small laptops (mostly iBooks).
Also: paper.
I've been at least three times as productive since ditching my Palm. Half-legal pads are dirt cheap and Moleskine pocket notebooks aren't much bigger than my wallet.
I won't waste time with faux-tech descriptions; they're paper and they work for me. It didn't take long to get over the absurdity of written notes about computer code.
posted by joemaller at 11:56 PM on June 17, 2002
Also: paper.
I've been at least three times as productive since ditching my Palm. Half-legal pads are dirt cheap and Moleskine pocket notebooks aren't much bigger than my wallet.
I won't waste time with faux-tech descriptions; they're paper and they work for me. It didn't take long to get over the absurdity of written notes about computer code.
posted by joemaller at 11:56 PM on June 17, 2002
While battery life and RAM format are valid issues, Zettai raises a good point. A point which, oddly enough, I was mulling again earlier today. I noticed AlphaSmart released the Dana, a new Palm OS-powered "laptop alternative."
Basically, the Dana provides you with a screen 3.5 times wider than a normal Palm screen and gives you a full-size keyboard. What it doesn't give is any more than the pathetic normal 8MB of RAM that comes standard with any sub-par Palm-powered device. Oddly, though, the Dana is billed as a portable word processor, creating files in Microsoft Word-compatible format. I don't know about your results with MS Word, but it's rare I get a two-line doc under 200k. Best of luck squeezing all those papers and essays into that 8MB alongside your other Palm data...
posted by mlaaker at 11:57 PM on June 17, 2002
Basically, the Dana provides you with a screen 3.5 times wider than a normal Palm screen and gives you a full-size keyboard. What it doesn't give is any more than the pathetic normal 8MB of RAM that comes standard with any sub-par Palm-powered device. Oddly, though, the Dana is billed as a portable word processor, creating files in Microsoft Word-compatible format. I don't know about your results with MS Word, but it's rare I get a two-line doc under 200k. Best of luck squeezing all those papers and essays into that 8MB alongside your other Palm data...
posted by mlaaker at 11:57 PM on June 17, 2002
It'd be cool if someone built a CF-2-USB adapter so I could hookup my Iomega RipGo! and Handera TRGpro. Not that I can think what I'd do with it, but when does that stop anyone...?
posted by krisjohn at 11:59 PM on June 17, 2002
posted by krisjohn at 11:59 PM on June 17, 2002
I have been really happy with my Sony Clié and don't feel a pressing need for more memory at the moment. Do you want it so you can brag about it or do you just like to have a mirror of Project Gutenberg on your handheld?
posted by jaden at 12:15 AM on June 18, 2002
posted by jaden at 12:15 AM on June 18, 2002
I realized that these damn PDAs are never going to get any cheaper for me. I was dead against replacing 1 $ pads of paper with a $200 toy. But I lose paper. All of it. All the time. I realized that being $200 wasn't a bug, it's was the point of the PDA. If it was $20, I'd lose it too.
posted by Wood at 1:01 AM on June 18, 2002
posted by Wood at 1:01 AM on June 18, 2002
If you wait, 1. you have the option of buying a really souped-up Palm and 2. if you just want to get your feet wet, I'm sure prices on *all* the Palms out now will be significantly lower when the new processers debut.
i hope so. i broke my palm v in a stupid user way, about 7 months ago. the palm v is discontinued, but prices on ebay remain beyond what i want to pay to replace it.
posted by lescour at 10:10 AM on June 18, 2002
i hope so. i broke my palm v in a stupid user way, about 7 months ago. the palm v is discontinued, but prices on ebay remain beyond what i want to pay to replace it.
posted by lescour at 10:10 AM on June 18, 2002
I have been really happy with my Sony Clié and don't feel a pressing need for more memory at the moment. Do you want it so you can brag about it or do you just like to have a mirror of Project Gutenberg on your handheld?
I want more memory so that, in a year or two, when applications for handheld computers get more powerful and complex, I'll still be able to use the same PDA.
And more than that, I was just curious why microdrives and handhelds hadn't converged yet (though I was wrong about that, since the IBM microdrive fits into some PDAs).
posted by Zettai at 11:00 AM on June 18, 2002
I want more memory so that, in a year or two, when applications for handheld computers get more powerful and complex, I'll still be able to use the same PDA.
And more than that, I was just curious why microdrives and handhelds hadn't converged yet (though I was wrong about that, since the IBM microdrive fits into some PDAs).
posted by Zettai at 11:00 AM on June 18, 2002
Joemaller, I agree with you. To me, the effectiveness of paper has never been threatened by gee-whiz technology.
I've been using a Franklin planner for years now. Not only is it incredibly convenient for jotting notes, but I also use it to hold my checkbook, letters I need to stuff in the mailbox, pending bills, drawings, maps, business cards, and notes on personal projects. It keeps all of my address information, credit cards, calendars, lists, and other vital information neatly organized and at my fingertips at a fraction of the price of a handheld PDA. Not to mention it's way quicker to enter and retrieve information, and if I need my girlfriend to find something for me, she doesn't have to ask how to turn it on. What's more, the Franklin Covey system has proven very helpful in a value-added sort of way by helping me to focus and organize my life according to my values and goals.
Finally - and this was an unexpected bonus - when i had unwisely stowed my laptop in a backpack last month, and through a bizarre set of circumstances it ended up falling out of the back of my buddy's SUV onto the pavement, I thought all was lost for the laptop... until I opened up the bag and realized my planner had miraculously absorbed the impact, leaving the laptop unscathed. Since the binder was slightly damaged, I went back to the Franklin store and upgraded it to a very pretty leather job for $65, then went my merry way.
All of which would have been impossible with a PDA, no matter how much damned RAM it's equipped with.
posted by Jonasio at 11:57 AM on June 18, 2002
I've been using a Franklin planner for years now. Not only is it incredibly convenient for jotting notes, but I also use it to hold my checkbook, letters I need to stuff in the mailbox, pending bills, drawings, maps, business cards, and notes on personal projects. It keeps all of my address information, credit cards, calendars, lists, and other vital information neatly organized and at my fingertips at a fraction of the price of a handheld PDA. Not to mention it's way quicker to enter and retrieve information, and if I need my girlfriend to find something for me, she doesn't have to ask how to turn it on. What's more, the Franklin Covey system has proven very helpful in a value-added sort of way by helping me to focus and organize my life according to my values and goals.
Finally - and this was an unexpected bonus - when i had unwisely stowed my laptop in a backpack last month, and through a bizarre set of circumstances it ended up falling out of the back of my buddy's SUV onto the pavement, I thought all was lost for the laptop... until I opened up the bag and realized my planner had miraculously absorbed the impact, leaving the laptop unscathed. Since the binder was slightly damaged, I went back to the Franklin store and upgraded it to a very pretty leather job for $65, then went my merry way.
All of which would have been impossible with a PDA, no matter how much damned RAM it's equipped with.
posted by Jonasio at 11:57 AM on June 18, 2002
Flash is noticeably slower, especially when writing data, and a hard drive is much slower than that. (Ask anyone who uses an IBM Microdrive in his camera instead of Compact Flash, and she'll readily inform you that the delay she suffers while images are saved onto the drive is interminable.)
actually, microdrives run at a comparable speed to all but the top of the line flash cards.
posted by chrisege at 2:41 PM on June 18, 2002
actually, microdrives run at a comparable speed to all but the top of the line flash cards.
posted by chrisege at 2:41 PM on June 18, 2002
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My 8 meg Pilot runs for two to three weeks on a pair of AA batteries because it has a wimpy processor, cheap mono screen, and a dinky memory space to refresh. The current batch of handhelds are comparably wimpy, Moore's Law-wise.
Ain't no IBM MicroDrive or even regular old 2.5" drive gonna run for two weeks on walkman juice, especially with devices these days sporting enough CPU to decode MP3, schmancy colorful backlit screens, and PCMCIA slots. Consumer battery technology has evolved almost not at all in the last few years, but devices are hungrier than ever.
posted by majick at 5:25 PM on June 17, 2002