I See Monsters
February 13, 2019 3:17 PM Subscribe
Ryan Adams dangled success. Women say they paid a price. Multiple women, including ex-wife Mandy Moore, and one whose interactions with Adams began at age 14, "described a pattern of manipulative behavior in which Adams dangled career opportunities while simultaneously pursuing female artists for sex."
Adams responds.
I feel like this is one of the worst kept secrets in alt-rock/folk circles. Also, let's take a moment to appreciate this take-down of mainstream reviews of Adams' 1989 cover album.
posted by kariebookish at 3:29 PM on February 13, 2019 [39 favorites]
posted by kariebookish at 3:29 PM on February 13, 2019 [39 favorites]
I just learned the other day that the song Motion Sickness by Phoebe Bridgers is about him.
(ETA: ...which I now see is addressed in TFA.)
posted by merriment at 3:34 PM on February 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
(ETA: ...which I now see is addressed in TFA.)
posted by merriment at 3:34 PM on February 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
He was an old friend's first love and treated her like *garbage.* Can't say this shocks me at all.
posted by chinese_fashion at 3:38 PM on February 13, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by chinese_fashion at 3:38 PM on February 13, 2019 [13 favorites]
He was also the coke-slinging villain in the Strokes portion of that early 00's rock revival book from a couple of years ago.
posted by Think_Long at 3:57 PM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by Think_Long at 3:57 PM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
I can't think of a single Ryan Adams song I know, and I went to Wikipedia and everything. Guess to me he'll always just be the massive creep who enjoyed a brief ride on Taylor Swift's coattails!
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:01 PM on February 13, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:01 PM on February 13, 2019 [16 favorites]
This sucks. I'm sorry for all the people he has hurt. I won't listen to his music on purpose again.
posted by The Vice Admiral of the Narrow Seas at 4:02 PM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by The Vice Admiral of the Narrow Seas at 4:02 PM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
I got hired as a music writer in large part thanks to my pan of his second album. I'm pretty sure I used the words "sleazy" and "manipulative" and those were just to describe the songs. After I quit writing for that publication , he pulled a whole thing trying to "get that girl that doesn't like my records" to interview him. Which also felt sleazy and manipulative.
I know plenty of people that know him. In twenty years I have never heard a single positive thing about him personally. I am terribly sorry for all the women he has hurt over the years. What a complete sleazy, manipulative shitheel.
posted by thivaia at 4:04 PM on February 13, 2019 [89 favorites]
I know plenty of people that know him. In twenty years I have never heard a single positive thing about him personally. I am terribly sorry for all the women he has hurt over the years. What a complete sleazy, manipulative shitheel.
posted by thivaia at 4:04 PM on February 13, 2019 [89 favorites]
" I would never have inappropriate interactions with someone I thought was underage. Period."
means "I absolutely went after young teens, and if I pretend now that I thought they might be able to pass for 17 in the right light, it was their fault." 100 percent of the time every time. you know who gives in and says Ok I'm 18 when an old man badgers them repeatedly to please say you're 18 so I won't get in trouble with your mom? children. children do that, and only children do that.
The lawyer added that “if, in fact, this woman was underage, Mr. Adams was unaware.” He pointed to her performances in clubs and provided photos of Ava from that time, saying she looked “approximately 20.”
that lawyer can rot in hell and they should have named him in that paragraph.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:07 PM on February 13, 2019 [68 favorites]
means "I absolutely went after young teens, and if I pretend now that I thought they might be able to pass for 17 in the right light, it was their fault." 100 percent of the time every time. you know who gives in and says Ok I'm 18 when an old man badgers them repeatedly to please say you're 18 so I won't get in trouble with your mom? children. children do that, and only children do that.
The lawyer added that “if, in fact, this woman was underage, Mr. Adams was unaware.” He pointed to her performances in clubs and provided photos of Ava from that time, saying she looked “approximately 20.”
that lawyer can rot in hell and they should have named him in that paragraph.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:07 PM on February 13, 2019 [68 favorites]
One of his texts to her was "If people knew they would say I was like R Kelley lol," which kind of undercuts the whole "officer, I swear she told me she was 18" excuse.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:11 PM on February 13, 2019 [63 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:11 PM on February 13, 2019 [63 favorites]
I feel like this is one of the worst kept secrets in alt-rock/folk circles.
He was an old friend's first love and treated her like *garbage.* Can't say this shocks me at all.
I know plenty of people that know him. In twenty years I have never heard a single positive thing about him personally.
I can say that the one person I knew who met him personally (she ran a Whiskeytown fan site) raved about him.
This seems shocking to a casual fan such as myself.
posted by waitingtoderail at 4:12 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
He was an old friend's first love and treated her like *garbage.* Can't say this shocks me at all.
I know plenty of people that know him. In twenty years I have never heard a single positive thing about him personally.
I can say that the one person I knew who met him personally (she ran a Whiskeytown fan site) raved about him.
This seems shocking to a casual fan such as myself.
posted by waitingtoderail at 4:12 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
That response wasn't his first response:
"Happy Vanentines (sic) day @nytimes," he initially wrote. "I know you got lawyers. But do you have the truth on your side. No. I do. And you have run out of friends. My folks are NOT your friends. Run your smear piece. But the legal eagles see you. Rats. I’m fucking taking you down. Let’s learn I bait."
posted by reductiondesign at 4:13 PM on February 13, 2019 [20 favorites]
"Happy Vanentines (sic) day @nytimes," he initially wrote. "I know you got lawyers. But do you have the truth on your side. No. I do. And you have run out of friends. My folks are NOT your friends. Run your smear piece. But the legal eagles see you. Rats. I’m fucking taking you down. Let’s learn I bait."
posted by reductiondesign at 4:13 PM on February 13, 2019 [20 favorites]
that's an, uh, bold move
posted by BungaDunga at 4:18 PM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 4:18 PM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
Ah god fucking dammit. I had him down as "probable asshole during 20s" but this, fuck.
The lawyer is Andrew Brettler, who also represents/represented Bryan Singer, so that feels like about all anyone needs to know.
posted by ominous_paws at 4:19 PM on February 13, 2019 [37 favorites]
The lawyer is Andrew Brettler, who also represents/represented Bryan Singer, so that feels like about all anyone needs to know.
posted by ominous_paws at 4:19 PM on February 13, 2019 [37 favorites]
A couple of weeks ago, I was skipping through a USB stick of lots of alt-country, new and old. Came up on two albums of Whiskeytown, and sang along with every song, loving it! I thought to myself, "I oughta see what Ryan Adams has been up to for the past, what, fifteen years."
Never mind, then.
posted by notsnot at 4:23 PM on February 13, 2019 [16 favorites]
Never mind, then.
posted by notsnot at 4:23 PM on February 13, 2019 [16 favorites]
...also, anyone who writes a line to "tighten all the nails" ought not be throwing stones....
posted by notsnot at 4:24 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by notsnot at 4:24 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
also the fucking NYT says in consecutive sentences* that 1. an Adams ex characterizes his hundreds of texts to her as vitriolic, harassing, abusive; 2. the NYT has seen and read "dozens" of these texts, and 3. Adams' lawyer disputes her characterization.
and then they drop the subject and move on to the next one. the "reporters" read the messages, THEY KNOW what they fuckin say! they know who is telling the truth and who is lying, here! and they declined to say! I don't know what this is but it isn't journalism. maybe it isn't legal to reproduce these texts directly and good news, they don't have to, that's what reporting is FOR. do they think they did their job, do they feel good and subtle about leaving it implicit and balancing both sides? jesus christ this is so unbelievably awful of them. this isn't reporting, this is quoting.
*"When she left him in 2018, Butterworth said, he inundated her with hundreds of text messages, phone calls and emails, oscillating between emotional pleas and vitriol, and also threatened suicide and lawsuits. The Times has reviewed dozens of these messages. (Adams, through his lawyer, disputed Butterworth’s account of his behavior as controlling, abusive, or physically intimidating.)
....
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:25 PM on February 13, 2019 [37 favorites]
and then they drop the subject and move on to the next one. the "reporters" read the messages, THEY KNOW what they fuckin say! they know who is telling the truth and who is lying, here! and they declined to say! I don't know what this is but it isn't journalism. maybe it isn't legal to reproduce these texts directly and good news, they don't have to, that's what reporting is FOR. do they think they did their job, do they feel good and subtle about leaving it implicit and balancing both sides? jesus christ this is so unbelievably awful of them. this isn't reporting, this is quoting.
*"When she left him in 2018, Butterworth said, he inundated her with hundreds of text messages, phone calls and emails, oscillating between emotional pleas and vitriol, and also threatened suicide and lawsuits. The Times has reviewed dozens of these messages. (Adams, through his lawyer, disputed Butterworth’s account of his behavior as controlling, abusive, or physically intimidating.)
....
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:25 PM on February 13, 2019 [37 favorites]
Literally everything I've ever read about Ryan Adams makes me think he's even more of an asshole than I thought he was after the last thing I read about him.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:28 PM on February 13, 2019 [18 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 4:28 PM on February 13, 2019 [18 favorites]
I can't remember when, but the last thing I read about him was about how he was clean and boring and settled and happy so that, uh, seems to have not necessarily been the most truthy
posted by ominous_paws at 4:32 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by ominous_paws at 4:32 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
Multiple women, including ex-wife Mandy Moore
Jeez for a second there I thought this was a post about the shit going down with Zak Smith.
posted by fleacircus at 4:42 PM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
Jeez for a second there I thought this was a post about the shit going down with Zak Smith.
posted by fleacircus at 4:42 PM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
>"I am not a perfect man and I have made many mistakes."
If you're going to try to bullshit your way out of something, maybe check to make sure you haven't used the most obviously-bullshit-sounding phrasing that is available in the language you speak.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:51 PM on February 13, 2019 [25 favorites]
If you're going to try to bullshit your way out of something, maybe check to make sure you haven't used the most obviously-bullshit-sounding phrasing that is available in the language you speak.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:51 PM on February 13, 2019 [25 favorites]
“Hearing that some people believe I caused them pain saddens me greatly.”
Believe. BELIEVE. That is part of one of the worst non-apology apologies ever. Disgusting.
posted by trillian at 5:17 PM on February 13, 2019 [36 favorites]
Believe. BELIEVE. That is part of one of the worst non-apology apologies ever. Disgusting.
posted by trillian at 5:17 PM on February 13, 2019 [36 favorites]
"And tell me that your mom is not gonna kill me if she finds out we even text"
If you are a grown-ass person and you are worried someone's mom is going to be mad, you are seriously fucking up and need to reconsider your life choices. This dude should be in one of those protective prison wings for sex offenders.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:32 PM on February 13, 2019 [22 favorites]
If you are a grown-ass person and you are worried someone's mom is going to be mad, you are seriously fucking up and need to reconsider your life choices. This dude should be in one of those protective prison wings for sex offenders.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:32 PM on February 13, 2019 [22 favorites]
I feel bad for not knowing this and for being a fan of his music and supporting him with previous album purchases. I will not be listening to his music or clicking on his Spotify anytime soon. Fuck this asshole.
*sighs*
posted by Fizz at 5:42 PM on February 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
*sighs*
posted by Fizz at 5:42 PM on February 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
When she left him in 2018, Butterworth said, he inundated her with hundreds of text messages, phone calls and emails, oscillating between emotional pleas and vitriol, and also threatened suicide and lawsuits. The Times has reviewed dozens of these messages.
THEY KNOW what they fuckin say!
My interpretation of this is that the messages are what the woman says they are. "She said the texts were X and we read them," seems clear to me that they are X.
posted by dobbs at 5:47 PM on February 13, 2019 [17 favorites]
THEY KNOW what they fuckin say!
My interpretation of this is that the messages are what the woman says they are. "She said the texts were X and we read them," seems clear to me that they are X.
posted by dobbs at 5:47 PM on February 13, 2019 [17 favorites]
I have definitely been a longtime big fan of his music burying my head in the sand. I never purposely listened to him speak or read his non-music-lyric writing because he always came off as a giant man-baby asshole, and I always heard as much. Mandy Moore's career virtually ending after their marriage and her avoidance of talking about him were also HUGE red flags that I ignored. I told myself it's ok to still like his music without liking him as a person. I told myself its ok to still want to tap into my own angsty teen selfish nostalgic part of me through his music since he always lives in that world. All I can say now is giant OOPS and I'M VERY VERY SORRY for remaining an ignorant jerk and supporting him. The loss of women's talent, time, energy, and worth is way too enormous compared to my stupid feelings of loss for this avenue to access my nostalgic, immature emotions. Time for me to continue the adulting journey and cut this out of my life. AAAUUUGGHHH.
posted by wannabecounselor at 5:56 PM on February 13, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by wannabecounselor at 5:56 PM on February 13, 2019 [11 favorites]
i know this is a legal fantasy, but there ought to be some method by which record labels/media studios are held liable for financial damages if the artist they represent commits sexual assault. like, imagine if part of the "charm school" that they put celebrities through before their first publicity tour involved some hard-assed record exec saying "look, kid, there's plenty of ways to get laid in this business, but if you use the power dynamic created by your fame and our money to be sexually coercive, we'll drop you like a hot potato and leave your shit on the curb"
this, unfortunately, would have to be in a world where those hard-assed record execs aren't also using power and money for coercion, but whatevs.
posted by Jon_Evil at 5:59 PM on February 13, 2019 [15 favorites]
this, unfortunately, would have to be in a world where those hard-assed record execs aren't also using power and money for coercion, but whatevs.
posted by Jon_Evil at 5:59 PM on February 13, 2019 [15 favorites]
Never heard of Phoebe Bridgers before but she's got an album called Stranger In the Alps, so that's pretty great.
posted by dobbs at 6:11 PM on February 13, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by dobbs at 6:11 PM on February 13, 2019 [9 favorites]
(And of course it sucks that she had to deal with Adams.)
posted by dobbs at 6:13 PM on February 13, 2019
posted by dobbs at 6:13 PM on February 13, 2019
Never heard of Phoebe Bridgers before but she's got an album called Stranger In the Alps, so that's pretty great.
She has a new collaboration with Conor Oberst called Better Oblivion Community Center, which is fantastic (if that's the kind of thing you like), and boygenius is great as well (NPR tiny desk).
posted by betweenthebars at 6:21 PM on February 13, 2019 [13 favorites]
She has a new collaboration with Conor Oberst called Better Oblivion Community Center, which is fantastic (if that's the kind of thing you like), and boygenius is great as well (NPR tiny desk).
posted by betweenthebars at 6:21 PM on February 13, 2019 [13 favorites]
Oh man, as a very casual listener this was like a moment of brief surprise and then "..huh. Yeah, I could see that."
I also love Phoebe Bridgers and particularly Motion Sickness (without knowing any of the context) for both being an incredible song and such a brilliantly, cuttingly specific takedown of an ex - I used to feel vaguely guilty about enjoying the hell out of such a mean song, but not anymore!
posted by btfreek at 6:24 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
I also love Phoebe Bridgers and particularly Motion Sickness (without knowing any of the context) for both being an incredible song and such a brilliantly, cuttingly specific takedown of an ex - I used to feel vaguely guilty about enjoying the hell out of such a mean song, but not anymore!
posted by btfreek at 6:24 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
I always assumed he was a car crash of a person so this is not exactly a surprise and yet still disappointing. I guess I had been under the impression that he was mostly self-destructive, which, while regrettable is common enough to be cliché. It's another matter for his destructiveness to be deliberately targeted at others.
posted by Nerd of the North at 6:29 PM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 6:29 PM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
Spent the last hour carefully deleting him from Spotify and personal playlists. I was a Whiskeytown fan - Adams grew up less than 20 miles from my first home, and we were born in the same month/year. He and Ben Folds were definitely touchstones for connecting to home when I moved out west.
I found my fandom waned after hearing so many stories over the years where he exhibited childish behavior toward fans, the press, other musicians. But I still listened to some of his solo work with the Cardinals, and had enjoyed his take on 1989. I think some artists are bad people, and some become bad people as they cross the fame threshold. I think Adams is the former *worsened* by his fame.
One of the few bright spots in the democratization of the music industry is that there are so many deserving songwriters that are worth listening to and accessible, there's no need to feel deprived in scrubbing less deserving humans from our inner ears. They already got our money.
I can recommend Steve Gunn for those looking for a clear-eyed, humble songwriter. Or if you need that darker rootsy sound without feeling like you're collaborating with exploiters, I like Jason Molina's work as Magnolia Electric Company and Songs:Ohia. [Molina didn't make it out completely unscathed, died of cirrhosis a while back] Sharon Van Etten's new one is also hitting the same tonal notes as those playlists where Adams's darker material would show up for me.
posted by SoundInhabitant at 6:38 PM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
I found my fandom waned after hearing so many stories over the years where he exhibited childish behavior toward fans, the press, other musicians. But I still listened to some of his solo work with the Cardinals, and had enjoyed his take on 1989. I think some artists are bad people, and some become bad people as they cross the fame threshold. I think Adams is the former *worsened* by his fame.
One of the few bright spots in the democratization of the music industry is that there are so many deserving songwriters that are worth listening to and accessible, there's no need to feel deprived in scrubbing less deserving humans from our inner ears. They already got our money.
I can recommend Steve Gunn for those looking for a clear-eyed, humble songwriter. Or if you need that darker rootsy sound without feeling like you're collaborating with exploiters, I like Jason Molina's work as Magnolia Electric Company and Songs:Ohia. [Molina didn't make it out completely unscathed, died of cirrhosis a while back] Sharon Van Etten's new one is also hitting the same tonal notes as those playlists where Adams's darker material would show up for me.
posted by SoundInhabitant at 6:38 PM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
My interpretation of this is that the messages are what the woman says they are. "She said the texts were X and we read them,"
yes, mine too. I have no doubt everyone here has the same interpretation. My interpretation of Ryan Adams's personality likewise leads me to believe that he'd deny this through a lawyer. but they didn't leave that latter fact up for interpretation or speculation; they reported it. as you do, when you think something is important for your readers to know, not just wonder about. this is not a suitable subject for implication.
You set two statements next to each other and discreetly step away clearing your throat like you just installed a terrific art project when you want to be cute, when you want to be stylish, when you want to be subtle and understated. You do that when it doesn't matter if everybody gets it, because the right people will get it. you do it when you take some pleasure in hasty or unintelligent readers not getting it. you don't do it when it's of any importance.
a real live news reporter for the paper of record writing their articles the way I write my internet comments is a fucking disgrace. there are times when pulling this kind of shit is appropriate and artistic and even delightful. this is not such a time. it is important that every time a woman in this situation is not only telling the truth but can prove it and has proved it, the person she proved it to says so out loud in language that does not require, or allow for, interpretation.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:41 PM on February 13, 2019 [22 favorites]
I thought we were talking about Bryan Adams at first.
posted by davejay at 6:43 PM on February 13, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by davejay at 6:43 PM on February 13, 2019 [9 favorites]
I thought we were talking about Bryan Adams at first.
I literally just googled them both. "Not the "Cuts Like a Knife", guy, right?"
posted by yhbc at 6:45 PM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
I literally just googled them both. "Not the "Cuts Like a Knife", guy, right?"
posted by yhbc at 6:45 PM on February 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
I thought we were talking about Bryan Adams at first.
Hehe.
posted by dobbs at 6:59 PM on February 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
Hehe.
posted by dobbs at 6:59 PM on February 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
There's a story about the Bryan Adams' "Summer of '69" connection, not one I'm interested in retelling, but it's a perfect encapsulation of R.Adams complete inability to be secure in his sense of self.
posted by SoundInhabitant at 6:59 PM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by SoundInhabitant at 6:59 PM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
That 1989 cover album was a huge red flag. Who does that? Who thinks that’s an okay thing to do? I’ll be honest here, I remember when that shit came out and everybody was reporting on it, and I thought at the time it was wrong in a way that just seemed completely ignored by the popular press.
posted by valkane at 7:00 PM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by valkane at 7:00 PM on February 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
I thought we were talking about Bryan Adams at first.
In the age of Trump I wouldn't be surprised if a "legal" argument like this was made, "they're all talking about Bryan!!!!"
I'd never heard of Ryan Adams. I wish that was still the case. That said, consequences hopefully follow.
posted by juiceCake at 7:32 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
In the age of Trump I wouldn't be surprised if a "legal" argument like this was made, "they're all talking about Bryan!!!!"
I'd never heard of Ryan Adams. I wish that was still the case. That said, consequences hopefully follow.
posted by juiceCake at 7:32 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
This is the first one that hurts. I don't care about Weinstein. I don't care about comedians. If they go down it's nothing to me. But I'm a fan of Adams. Have been for almost 20 years. I'll still have the songs. Some of those songs mean a whole lot to me. And probably always will. But now it's tainted. I'm generally pretty good about separating art from artist but those songs were so very very personal to me. I just want people to be good to people. Why do they have to ruin it by being bastard humans?
posted by downtohisturtles at 7:33 PM on February 13, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 7:33 PM on February 13, 2019 [11 favorites]
This guy sounds like a monster. He could have found groupies, but he needed young girls he could emotionally control and devastate.
posted by xammerboy at 7:50 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by xammerboy at 7:50 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
Really the only experience I’ve ever had with Ryan Adams was doing housework one day listening to a long interview with him and Jian Ghomeshi. Not surprised that they seemed to really enjoy each other’s company.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:56 PM on February 13, 2019 [30 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:56 PM on February 13, 2019 [30 favorites]
I also thought this was about the Cuts Like A Knife guy until davejay posted. Going by the Wiki discography, guess I managed to miss this particular piece of shit music guy.
posted by tavella at 8:32 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 8:32 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
Bryan Adams has a charitable foundation that "aims to improve the quality of people’s lives around the world by providing financial grants to support specific projects that are committed to bettering the lives of other people."
He's also a photographer in addition to doing music.
So, seems like he's way ahead of the other guy morally speaking.
posted by suetanvil at 10:11 PM on February 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
He's also a photographer in addition to doing music.
So, seems like he's way ahead of the other guy morally speaking.
posted by suetanvil at 10:11 PM on February 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
There's a story about the Bryan Adams' "Summer of '69" connection, not one I'm interested in retelling, but it's a perfect encapsulation of R.Adams complete inability to be secure in his sense of self.
Bryan Adams was nine in the Summer of '69.
I saw Bryan Adams open for The Kinks in '82. Not the summer, though. And I was 18.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:13 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
Bryan Adams was nine in the Summer of '69.
I saw Bryan Adams open for The Kinks in '82. Not the summer, though. And I was 18.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:13 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
This is the first one that hurts.
Same.
I don't know how to process the emotions I'm feeling. I still haven't read the article. I remember sitting on my dorm room floor and listening to Heartbreaker for the first time. It changed my life. His music is inextricably tied to a particular period of my life to the point that friends have been reaching out to me to make sure I'm handling the news okay. What really sucks is that when I'm feeling this way I just want to listen to Ryan Adams.
And if people could spare the smug "I knew he was an asshole all along" some of us would really appreciate it.
posted by MaritaCov at 10:30 PM on February 13, 2019 [18 favorites]
Same.
I don't know how to process the emotions I'm feeling. I still haven't read the article. I remember sitting on my dorm room floor and listening to Heartbreaker for the first time. It changed my life. His music is inextricably tied to a particular period of my life to the point that friends have been reaching out to me to make sure I'm handling the news okay. What really sucks is that when I'm feeling this way I just want to listen to Ryan Adams.
And if people could spare the smug "I knew he was an asshole all along" some of us would really appreciate it.
posted by MaritaCov at 10:30 PM on February 13, 2019 [18 favorites]
Bryan Adams’ songwriting partner probably write the “Summer of 69” lyrics. It’s suppose to be about sex tho
posted by gucci mane at 10:54 PM on February 13, 2019
posted by gucci mane at 10:54 PM on February 13, 2019
Is it cool to feel less guilty because I have liked his music but never bought an album? Kind of a weird upside to growing up in the heyday of music piracy.
posted by axiom at 10:58 PM on February 13, 2019
posted by axiom at 10:58 PM on February 13, 2019
I get that there's some question as to whether or not he thought the one girl he had been manipulating into sexting with him had just turned 18, but... is that really supposed to make any of it better? I get the sense he's going to go to the public with this supposedly winning argument.
posted by xammerboy at 12:02 AM on February 14, 2019
posted by xammerboy at 12:02 AM on February 14, 2019
This turd biscuit can go get bent. Too bad he's had all this 'success' - I don't know his music, at all, but he sounds like he should be shunned and not asked back. As a favor to society and also a warning to budding shitheads everywhere - "Don't be like this. Pull your shit together and change or it all goes down the tubes."
Also, Bryan Adams is unreasonably interesting. He's part founder of a fashion mag in Berlin, runs that foundation, is best friends with Linda Evangelista. You know, the good kind of Canadian, not the Gomeshi kind.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:34 AM on February 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
Also, Bryan Adams is unreasonably interesting. He's part founder of a fashion mag in Berlin, runs that foundation, is best friends with Linda Evangelista. You know, the good kind of Canadian, not the Gomeshi kind.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:34 AM on February 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
This is disappointing. I've been a fan since the Whiskeytown days, and some friends I have in musical circles know him well. One of those friends has recorded and toured with him.
The Phoebe Bridgers connection I didn't know about, and that's interesting. Richmonder Lucy Dacus is in boygenius, and I knew Adams was previously musically/romantically linked to another Richmond musician, Natalie Prass.
posted by emelenjr at 3:24 AM on February 14, 2019
The Phoebe Bridgers connection I didn't know about, and that's interesting. Richmonder Lucy Dacus is in boygenius, and I knew Adams was previously musically/romantically linked to another Richmond musician, Natalie Prass.
posted by emelenjr at 3:24 AM on February 14, 2019
2011. Ryan Adams fell out with Janis Ian and Neil Finn during the taping of a BBC music show. This whole article makes for interesting reading, if you are one of the ones taken by surprise. In retrospect, it's particularly noteworthy how Adams singles out Janis Ian for "singing out of tune".
posted by kariebookish at 3:44 AM on February 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by kariebookish at 3:44 AM on February 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
I know one song by him and it’s a cover - I cannot stand the original but his cover was one I enjoyed. But it’s getting deleted now.
Anyone know a cover of “Wonderwall” that doesn’t have a class A shit attached to it?
posted by mephron at 4:07 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
Anyone know a cover of “Wonderwall” that doesn’t have a class A shit attached to it?
posted by mephron at 4:07 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
well, fuck.
posted by Catseye at 4:47 AM on February 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 4:47 AM on February 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
At least it’s progress that shitty music men like this are getting called out for it long and loud now, I suppose, rather than it all getting “oh well haha it’s rock and roll what can you do”-style minimised until they’re either dead or practically canonised and then nobody brings it up any more.
posted by Catseye at 4:56 AM on February 14, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 4:56 AM on February 14, 2019 [5 favorites]
One of the frustrating things is folks going, “that’s not a surprise.” It’s a broken step, people!
Who are the other assholes we should all know about?
posted by leotrotsky at 5:25 AM on February 14, 2019 [10 favorites]
Who are the other assholes we should all know about?
posted by leotrotsky at 5:25 AM on February 14, 2019 [10 favorites]
It appears that he -- as was prophesied -- finally crashed on the barrelhead.
posted by foldedfish at 6:04 AM on February 14, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by foldedfish at 6:04 AM on February 14, 2019 [6 favorites]
Who are the other assholes we should all know about?
Sadly, you’re going to have to narrow down the specific subtype of asshole.
posted by Catseye at 6:21 AM on February 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
Sadly, you’re going to have to narrow down the specific subtype of asshole.
posted by Catseye at 6:21 AM on February 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
This one is particularly devastating not just because his music was important to a lot of people, but because the pattern here is not just of the abuse and harassment, but of him driving women out of music. Talented artists and musicians decided that dealing with him and men like him was not a price they were willing to pay, and we all were denied their work and their art because he couldn't act like a functioning adult.
This quote from the article kills me: “As their relationship waned, Adams returned to the possibility of recording together. But for Ava, the idea that she would be objectified or have to sleep with people to get ahead “just totally put me off to the whole idea” of being a musician, she said. She never played another gig.”
Do you know how many brilliant women I know who quietly work jobs where they are underpaid and denied their chances to show off their genius because at least they feel safe there? Because their attempts to follow their dreams were derailed by men like this? Fuck.
Linda Holmes summed it up on Twitter: “I think sometimes about the size of a library full of the books that weren't written, the movies and shows that weren't made, the music that was never played because of the way marginalized and vulnerable creative people were treated. I mean, there's a good chance you never heard what would have been your favorite band.”
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:40 AM on February 14, 2019 [67 favorites]
This quote from the article kills me: “As their relationship waned, Adams returned to the possibility of recording together. But for Ava, the idea that she would be objectified or have to sleep with people to get ahead “just totally put me off to the whole idea” of being a musician, she said. She never played another gig.”
Do you know how many brilliant women I know who quietly work jobs where they are underpaid and denied their chances to show off their genius because at least they feel safe there? Because their attempts to follow their dreams were derailed by men like this? Fuck.
Linda Holmes summed it up on Twitter: “I think sometimes about the size of a library full of the books that weren't written, the movies and shows that weren't made, the music that was never played because of the way marginalized and vulnerable creative people were treated. I mean, there's a good chance you never heard what would have been your favorite band.”
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:40 AM on February 14, 2019 [67 favorites]
A biography of Adams during the Whiskeytown era by Thomas O'Keefe doesn't paint a flattering portrait.
posted by tommasz at 6:44 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by tommasz at 6:44 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
Is Ben Folds this bad too? I always thought he sounded like kind of a dick to women... but but but ... I love his music so much... :(
posted by wannabecounselor at 7:06 AM on February 14, 2019
posted by wannabecounselor at 7:06 AM on February 14, 2019
Yes, can someone let us all know if Ben Folds is an abuser, y/n?
posted by all about eevee at 7:09 AM on February 14, 2019
posted by all about eevee at 7:09 AM on February 14, 2019
Ryan Adams' thing was being a shit-disturber. Apart from the 1989 thing, he would release tons of material rather than accept record label guidance about what not to release, and (after being told he should write something more commercial) he also released an album of original songs where every single one of them made you say "Oh, that sounds like..." with the names on the end being "U2", "T-Rex", "The Strokes". "Oasis", and others. There were other examples, those are just the shit-disturbings I can think of off the top of my head.
I admired him for it, but it's a fine line. Welcome to the wrong side of it, pal. Ah well.
posted by Quindar Beep at 7:39 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
I admired him for it, but it's a fine line. Welcome to the wrong side of it, pal. Ah well.
posted by Quindar Beep at 7:39 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
I get that there's some question as to whether or not he thought the one girl he had been manipulating into sexting with him had just turned 18
there isn't any question about that at all, this is one thing the article is clear about.
He could have found groupies, but he needed young girls he could emotionally control and devastate.
that's a odd distinction. girls, who are all of them young by definition, are traditionally the groupie demographic. girls who like music are traditionally despised as mere groupies and groupies are despised inasmuch as they are assumed to be mostly girls. people can adore and follow bands at any age and stage of life, but men who fantasize about having groupies to fuck are generally fantasizing about teen girls and very young women. historically, I would like to say, since it's not the '60s, '70s, or '80s anymore, but the dream never dies.
adult women who really adored Adams' music for whatever unsound but sincere musical reasons - fans, if you will - would not be similarly guaranteed to love his face. why would they? there is no natural or necessary connection between loving a man's music and loving to be subject to his emotional demands and bodily desires. intentional exploitation and a number of sexist assumptions on both sides are how you force that connection into being, it's a pretty essential part of it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:44 AM on February 14, 2019 [13 favorites]
there isn't any question about that at all, this is one thing the article is clear about.
He could have found groupies, but he needed young girls he could emotionally control and devastate.
that's a odd distinction. girls, who are all of them young by definition, are traditionally the groupie demographic. girls who like music are traditionally despised as mere groupies and groupies are despised inasmuch as they are assumed to be mostly girls. people can adore and follow bands at any age and stage of life, but men who fantasize about having groupies to fuck are generally fantasizing about teen girls and very young women. historically, I would like to say, since it's not the '60s, '70s, or '80s anymore, but the dream never dies.
adult women who really adored Adams' music for whatever unsound but sincere musical reasons - fans, if you will - would not be similarly guaranteed to love his face. why would they? there is no natural or necessary connection between loving a man's music and loving to be subject to his emotional demands and bodily desires. intentional exploitation and a number of sexist assumptions on both sides are how you force that connection into being, it's a pretty essential part of it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:44 AM on February 14, 2019 [13 favorites]
As a couple of others have said above, this one devastates me. His music has meant so much to me for so many years. I’ve known that he was a mess in some particular ways – there was a long era during which I wouldn’t spend the money to go see him in concert because of his erratic behavior, which I largely attributed to addiction, compounded by Meniere’s disease and frustration. When he seemed to settle down and grow up, I cheered for him, and the occasional less-than-totally-chipper ups and downs on twitter only made me feel for him as a real person with the same kind of occasional struggles many of us have, related to depression, anxiety, etc.
Which is to say (still making it all about me), I’m crushed. I’m, sadly, not shocked. The accusations are extremely credible and all too familiar. I don’t know what more I’m going to feel as this continues to sink in. As I said, his music has been so important to me for a couple of decades. The way music affects us is so personal, so intimate, so emotional. I’m so angry and hurt. I feel cheated and fooled. I don’t know where to put these feelings right now.
I quit playing various musical instruments because of various men at various times, myself.
If I could I’d fold myself away / like a card table / a concertina or a Murphy bed / I would / but I wasn’t made that way
posted by Occula at 8:33 AM on February 14, 2019 [8 favorites]
Which is to say (still making it all about me), I’m crushed. I’m, sadly, not shocked. The accusations are extremely credible and all too familiar. I don’t know what more I’m going to feel as this continues to sink in. As I said, his music has been so important to me for a couple of decades. The way music affects us is so personal, so intimate, so emotional. I’m so angry and hurt. I feel cheated and fooled. I don’t know where to put these feelings right now.
I quit playing various musical instruments because of various men at various times, myself.
If I could I’d fold myself away / like a card table / a concertina or a Murphy bed / I would / but I wasn’t made that way
posted by Occula at 8:33 AM on February 14, 2019 [8 favorites]
that lawyer can rot in hell and they should have named him in that paragraph.
The lawyer is identified as Andrew B. Brettler the first time he is mentioned.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 8:36 AM on February 14, 2019
The lawyer is identified as Andrew B. Brettler the first time he is mentioned.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 8:36 AM on February 14, 2019
I genuinely thought everybody who knew anything about this douchebag knew he was a missing stair. There've been rumors since Whiskeytown FFS. At some point last year someone I play music with brought up the Cardinals and literally everyone else in the band was like "Fuck Ryan Adams."
Also I hate that kinda whiney forced emo affect in general, but that's neither here nor there.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:52 AM on February 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
Also I hate that kinda whiney forced emo affect in general, but that's neither here nor there.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:52 AM on February 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
Ben Folds also sucks, but there's no evidence of him being abusive AFAIK.
Apparently I have strong negative feelings about this genre that haven't come up since it was contemporary.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:54 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
Apparently I have strong negative feelings about this genre that haven't come up since it was contemporary.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:54 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
One of the frustrating things is folks going, “that’s not a surprise.” It’s a broken step, people!
His career probably is a exemplary instance of how abusive behavior gets whispered about or talked about in other terms—"he's an asshole"—but never actually gets named for what it is.
I mean, this Guardian profile from 2011 rings the changes of the "troubled artist" who's "happier" now, but I feel like you don't have to read too deeply between the lines to see the manipulative personality underneath
posted by octobersurprise at 8:55 AM on February 14, 2019 [3 favorites]
His career probably is a exemplary instance of how abusive behavior gets whispered about or talked about in other terms—"he's an asshole"—but never actually gets named for what it is.
I mean, this Guardian profile from 2011 rings the changes of the "troubled artist" who's "happier" now, but I feel like you don't have to read too deeply between the lines to see the manipulative personality underneath
"And whatever drugs he was taking, he jokes, he always sent Christmas cards and was able to go on dates. Even so, there's a tiny frown: 'I don't know what toll it took upon my psyche.'"Despite his obvious talents, everything about Adams has always been nails-on-the-chalkboard to me, but I feel bad for y'all to whom he meant a lot.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:55 AM on February 14, 2019 [3 favorites]
I’ve heard that Ben Folds is arrogant and hugely opportunistic . I’ve also heard he’s no fun to be involved with because he’s arrogant and hugely opportunistic. I haven’t heard abusive. Yet.
Music is a big part of my life and my social milieu and my identity. The (unofficial) list of creeps in the music industry is so long and comprehensive that I reached a point some years ago when I was like “Do I want to like this artist/ song? I hope to God I never meet him or any of his exes in person.”
posted by thivaia at 9:09 AM on February 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
Music is a big part of my life and my social milieu and my identity. The (unofficial) list of creeps in the music industry is so long and comprehensive that I reached a point some years ago when I was like “Do I want to like this artist/ song? I hope to God I never meet him or any of his exes in person.”
posted by thivaia at 9:09 AM on February 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
fluttering hellfire: Louis CK was involved with the Largo scene at one point--he was involved with the release of her Live at Largo album. I've been worried about complicity among the Largo scene as well.
posted by pxe2000 at 10:14 AM on February 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by pxe2000 at 10:14 AM on February 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
Adams, through his lawyer, disputed Butterworth’s account of his behavior as controlling, abusive, or physically intimidating
lol if you leave someone and they send you hundreds of anything that is pretty terrifying
if i had a billion dollars i would, among other things, set up an army of lawyers for victims who want to come forward about these monsters
and then also possibly a free educational program to help any of the ones driven from their vocations by predators get a second shot at the life they wanted
but we can expel this man from society via trebuchet at the least
posted by schadenfrau at 10:32 AM on February 14, 2019 [9 favorites]
lol if you leave someone and they send you hundreds of anything that is pretty terrifying
if i had a billion dollars i would, among other things, set up an army of lawyers for victims who want to come forward about these monsters
and then also possibly a free educational program to help any of the ones driven from their vocations by predators get a second shot at the life they wanted
but we can expel this man from society via trebuchet at the least
posted by schadenfrau at 10:32 AM on February 14, 2019 [9 favorites]
If "arrogant and hugely opportunistic" is going to be problematic, I think that's gonna sharply narrow the pool of musicians, artists, writers whose work we will feel comfy enjoying... (laughing)
posted by PhineasGage at 10:47 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by PhineasGage at 10:47 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
I got driven out of music for an entire decade due to abusive men. This 100% hits home for me. I'm so glad that this sleazeball is finally being exposed.
(don't worry, i started doing music again eventually but i really do feel that the completely unselfconcious joy with which i once pursued it is gone forever.)
posted by capnsue at 11:31 AM on February 14, 2019 [17 favorites]
(don't worry, i started doing music again eventually but i really do feel that the completely unselfconcious joy with which i once pursued it is gone forever.)
posted by capnsue at 11:31 AM on February 14, 2019 [17 favorites]
hey capnsue, same (or very similar). although i still don't create music anymore.
there are many more Ryan Adams out there, that go unnamed, that are still flourishing and doing well in their careers. people don't name them because 1) likely reprisal 2) alienation from peer/network groups. lots of people prefer to close an eye to sketchy/known manipulators/abusers even at their own friends'/colleagues' expense.
posted by aielen at 12:12 PM on February 14, 2019 [5 favorites]
there are many more Ryan Adams out there, that go unnamed, that are still flourishing and doing well in their careers. people don't name them because 1) likely reprisal 2) alienation from peer/network groups. lots of people prefer to close an eye to sketchy/known manipulators/abusers even at their own friends'/colleagues' expense.
posted by aielen at 12:12 PM on February 14, 2019 [5 favorites]
schadenfrau: but we can expel this man from society via trebuchet at the least
Into a flaming midden. I think that's where he belongs.
posted by mephron at 12:45 PM on February 14, 2019 [3 favorites]
Into a flaming midden. I think that's where he belongs.
posted by mephron at 12:45 PM on February 14, 2019 [3 favorites]
The FBI is now investigating Ryan Adams over the claims.
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 4:07 PM on February 14, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 4:07 PM on February 14, 2019 [9 favorites]
Sady Doyle: "I heard gossip that Ryan Adams was an asshole, and what I'm coming to terms with is that for a woman "asshole" means she forgot someone's birthday and for a man "asshole" means he definitely raped some people"
That's how I feel about it. I've liked Ryan Adams enough to listen through his albums when in the mood; I love a few songs of his; I always knew he was an asshole. I never knew he was this kind of creep. This is the frustrating way that whisper networks become a game of rumor. Every difficult woman story turns into a nightmare story, and every abusive man story becomes a couple of crazy asides. At this point, I'm actively trying to check my assumptions on this. It's embarrassing that my reaction to every previously telegraphed #MeToo monster is genuine surprise.
posted by grandiloquiet at 7:17 PM on February 14, 2019 [16 favorites]
That's how I feel about it. I've liked Ryan Adams enough to listen through his albums when in the mood; I love a few songs of his; I always knew he was an asshole. I never knew he was this kind of creep. This is the frustrating way that whisper networks become a game of rumor. Every difficult woman story turns into a nightmare story, and every abusive man story becomes a couple of crazy asides. At this point, I'm actively trying to check my assumptions on this. It's embarrassing that my reaction to every previously telegraphed #MeToo monster is genuine surprise.
posted by grandiloquiet at 7:17 PM on February 14, 2019 [16 favorites]
If you liked some of Ryan Adams' music but never want to hear it again after this, take heart: we still have Jason Isbell. No need to trust me on this. Check out his Twitter and vet him for yourself. He's one of the more consistently decent male human beings in music. You'll like him even before you listen to his music. And bonus: once you do, you'll see he's a helluva lot better and more consistent songwriter than Adams anyway.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:17 AM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:17 AM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
Also on Twitter: Carl "AC" Newman of The New Pornogrpahers explains how he knows that the "guy starts a bar altercation that gets his girlfriend arrested" story in Adams' "Harder Now That It's Over" isn't fictional: he was there and is described in the song. Next posts in thread.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:45 AM on February 15, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:45 AM on February 15, 2019 [5 favorites]
The quantity versus quality of Ryan Adams output was always a personal issue for me (albeit, minor as I'm just a fan since Whiskeytown and not a victim) and hearing he was planning on releasing three (!) albums this year seemed too exhausting to even consider sifting through this year.
Troubled assholes continue to make phoney artists and I can't imagine how bad this must have been for those around him and the lost potential of all the young fans and up-and-coming artists that had their dreams squashed by his inept, dangerous, and self-serving “mentorship”.
Another connection with R. Kelly is music reviewer and reporter Jim DeRogatis. From a 2013 review of Ryan Adams in Chicago:
Also, about an hour in, John Roderick talks to Merlin Mann in episode 73 (Ketchup is Hard to Remove) of Roderick on the Line about witnessing a breathtaking sound check of “Come Pick Me Up” and then the harsh realization of Ryan Adam's lack of humanity in an Amsterdam public square.
posted by boost ventilator at 7:12 AM on February 15, 2019 [5 favorites]
Troubled assholes continue to make phoney artists and I can't imagine how bad this must have been for those around him and the lost potential of all the young fans and up-and-coming artists that had their dreams squashed by his inept, dangerous, and self-serving “mentorship”.
Another connection with R. Kelly is music reviewer and reporter Jim DeRogatis. From a 2013 review of Ryan Adams in Chicago:
The concert was proof once more that Adams is his own worst enemy, detracting from his modest talent by thinking that every idea he has is a good one, and thereby giving us as much garbage as greatness.And the Ryan Adams angry voice mail message he left to Jim DeRogatis.
…
Adams can release three CDs in a three-week span, but the fact remains that he still can't write one song as original or as heartfelt as anything by Jeff Tweedy.
Also, about an hour in, John Roderick talks to Merlin Mann in episode 73 (Ketchup is Hard to Remove) of Roderick on the Line about witnessing a breathtaking sound check of “Come Pick Me Up” and then the harsh realization of Ryan Adam's lack of humanity in an Amsterdam public square.
posted by boost ventilator at 7:12 AM on February 15, 2019 [5 favorites]
No need to trust me on this. Check out his Twitter and vet him for yourself.
I have no knowledge of this dude and no bone to pick with him or you, but: lol at the idea that to tell if someone is a predator, the best thing you can do is to observe the way he consciously presents himself on his own damn Twitter feed as opposed to talking to the many other people who have had dealings with him, especially women.
Like.
My dude! The men I have worked with who I distrust and fear based on my own whisper networks and experiences are by no means exclusive to the ones who put on a good face on their own social media! Are you kidding me right now!
posted by sciatrix at 8:01 AM on February 15, 2019 [13 favorites]
I have no knowledge of this dude and no bone to pick with him or you, but: lol at the idea that to tell if someone is a predator, the best thing you can do is to observe the way he consciously presents himself on his own damn Twitter feed as opposed to talking to the many other people who have had dealings with him, especially women.
Like.
My dude! The men I have worked with who I distrust and fear based on my own whisper networks and experiences are by no means exclusive to the ones who put on a good face on their own social media! Are you kidding me right now!
posted by sciatrix at 8:01 AM on February 15, 2019 [13 favorites]
(sigh) I nearly put a long qualifier on there about other stuff about Jason Isbell that makes the case, but given the inevitability of a reply like this opted for "vet him yourself" as a shorthand. By all means, look into anything you like about him. He's a pretty universally acclaimed stand-up person.
I mean, I get why you would react like that, but maybe you can get why I didn't want to lard up a thread that isn't about him presenting a court case on why this one particular guy, not all men, etc.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:43 AM on February 15, 2019 [1 favorite]
I mean, I get why you would react like that, but maybe you can get why I didn't want to lard up a thread that isn't about him presenting a court case on why this one particular guy, not all men, etc.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:43 AM on February 15, 2019 [1 favorite]
Probably what I should have said was that while Twitter isn't a foolproof way to get to know anyone, Isbell is a prolific Twitterer who is vocal and frank about his beliefs and activism. There's no shortage of threads to pull on there and, given what the women in his life say about him, you'll probably like what you find.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:37 AM on February 15, 2019
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:37 AM on February 15, 2019
I mean, I can get it! I'm just also a little aggravated by the idea that... Let me think about why that particular exhortation hit me that way.
One thing is that men providing recommendations about the safety, upstanding nature, morality etc of other men is generally not useful to me as a woman when I'm evaluating who is and isn't safe. Bluntly, men are less likely to observe warning signs and also less likely to be invited into whisper networks, explicitly because men are more likely to ignore the rumors that signal to women that someone might not be safe. In the absence of policing bad actors in any given industry or community, though, the presence of those rumors or the endorsement of women who are plugged into the network enough to warn you about other men are the signals we rely on.
Men straight up don't know about this unless they have a lot of close relationships with multiple women who trust them enough to tell them about the men in their workplaces who are potential threats and missing stairs, and women will test the waters with these to see how you react to much smaller stories of misconduct before telling you about the big ones. That's because many men react poorly to this information and tend to censure women who openly share it, and some women likewise behave similarly, so women trying to share that information try to gauge whether you are safe to tell about little stuff before they share big stuff. If you blow off little things, you will not hear the bigger ones. And fewer women will trust a strange guy enough to try than they will another woman they don't know, because frankly the odds are incredibly shitty.
On the other hand, endorsements of good character only mean anything if you can trust the person you're talking about to also inform you about bad character. So if I'm, say, picking a PI to work closely with and trying to determine who is abusive and who is not, endorsements of one person's character from someone who also warns me about bad rumors about another person's character are way more heavily weighted than positive endorsements from someone who never passes on information about potentially abusive people and overtly pretends they don't exist. I've never met a woman in my industry who was willing to listen to this kind of quiet information passing who didn't have some personal experience with someone who was abusive or sexist on some level at work--it is everywhere, some of it ostensibly well meaning and all of it claimed to be--so people who don't observe it at some level make me dubious about their expertise identifying it.
So, like.... Bluntly, in any #MeToo thread, I don't care about the judgements of anyone who doesn't either have an obvious tap into the whisper networks surrounding a dude or have a history of watching the brief aborted attempts for justice and remembering them, and invoke that in their endorsement. I need someone who demonstrates having access to the relevant whisper networks of watching women to tell me what they think. Beyond that, I'm pretty much "okay, then, if he's a monster he's at least nice enough to hide it, time will tell."
Incidentally, complicating all of this is that those whisper networks don't only pass on the big shit, like rape; we talk about "A treats female students with a lot less slack than male ones" or "B said something when the department was covering up that harassment case, he wouldn't let them cover it up" or "C consistently walks into conference calls, remembers everyone's name but mine--and I'm the only woman in the room--and then calls me cute" or "D and E and F never comment when C pulls his bullshit, even though they say they're allies." All of which is generally flagged with varying levels of self doubt like "now this might be me, but..." of course.
This is basic life for women. This is something every woman I know who is willing to admit the presence of sexism to me does on some level. And frankly, something I've observed women who don't trust me with their observations doing through intermediaries.
If you don't have access to this kind of discussion around a particular man, your judgement just isn't useful on this topic. I don't mean that personally in any way. I'm not angry about it or honestly all that emotionally invested. But in the absence of actual justice, ideally for the little shit before we get to the point of destroying multiple budding careers, this is what the discussion is. And in the absence of tangible justice, I'm going to keep blowing off endorsements from people who don't signal that they're paying attention to those gendered networks amalgamated from the quiet assessments of many observing women.
posted by sciatrix at 11:43 AM on February 15, 2019 [16 favorites]
One thing is that men providing recommendations about the safety, upstanding nature, morality etc of other men is generally not useful to me as a woman when I'm evaluating who is and isn't safe. Bluntly, men are less likely to observe warning signs and also less likely to be invited into whisper networks, explicitly because men are more likely to ignore the rumors that signal to women that someone might not be safe. In the absence of policing bad actors in any given industry or community, though, the presence of those rumors or the endorsement of women who are plugged into the network enough to warn you about other men are the signals we rely on.
Men straight up don't know about this unless they have a lot of close relationships with multiple women who trust them enough to tell them about the men in their workplaces who are potential threats and missing stairs, and women will test the waters with these to see how you react to much smaller stories of misconduct before telling you about the big ones. That's because many men react poorly to this information and tend to censure women who openly share it, and some women likewise behave similarly, so women trying to share that information try to gauge whether you are safe to tell about little stuff before they share big stuff. If you blow off little things, you will not hear the bigger ones. And fewer women will trust a strange guy enough to try than they will another woman they don't know, because frankly the odds are incredibly shitty.
On the other hand, endorsements of good character only mean anything if you can trust the person you're talking about to also inform you about bad character. So if I'm, say, picking a PI to work closely with and trying to determine who is abusive and who is not, endorsements of one person's character from someone who also warns me about bad rumors about another person's character are way more heavily weighted than positive endorsements from someone who never passes on information about potentially abusive people and overtly pretends they don't exist. I've never met a woman in my industry who was willing to listen to this kind of quiet information passing who didn't have some personal experience with someone who was abusive or sexist on some level at work--it is everywhere, some of it ostensibly well meaning and all of it claimed to be--so people who don't observe it at some level make me dubious about their expertise identifying it.
So, like.... Bluntly, in any #MeToo thread, I don't care about the judgements of anyone who doesn't either have an obvious tap into the whisper networks surrounding a dude or have a history of watching the brief aborted attempts for justice and remembering them, and invoke that in their endorsement. I need someone who demonstrates having access to the relevant whisper networks of watching women to tell me what they think. Beyond that, I'm pretty much "okay, then, if he's a monster he's at least nice enough to hide it, time will tell."
Incidentally, complicating all of this is that those whisper networks don't only pass on the big shit, like rape; we talk about "A treats female students with a lot less slack than male ones" or "B said something when the department was covering up that harassment case, he wouldn't let them cover it up" or "C consistently walks into conference calls, remembers everyone's name but mine--and I'm the only woman in the room--and then calls me cute" or "D and E and F never comment when C pulls his bullshit, even though they say they're allies." All of which is generally flagged with varying levels of self doubt like "now this might be me, but..." of course.
This is basic life for women. This is something every woman I know who is willing to admit the presence of sexism to me does on some level. And frankly, something I've observed women who don't trust me with their observations doing through intermediaries.
If you don't have access to this kind of discussion around a particular man, your judgement just isn't useful on this topic. I don't mean that personally in any way. I'm not angry about it or honestly all that emotionally invested. But in the absence of actual justice, ideally for the little shit before we get to the point of destroying multiple budding careers, this is what the discussion is. And in the absence of tangible justice, I'm going to keep blowing off endorsements from people who don't signal that they're paying attention to those gendered networks amalgamated from the quiet assessments of many observing women.
posted by sciatrix at 11:43 AM on February 15, 2019 [16 favorites]
And I mean, on preview I see that you were pointing to his Twitter as a place to find endorsements from specifically those women, and that's great. But what I'm trying to get across to folks is that the bar for "definitely a good dude" is higher than just "has a Twitter feed that's good" and that in order to be confident that someone is definitely good, you have to hear from someone who definitely condemns and recognizes the bad.
And frankly, that comes off a lot more trustworthy if it's paired with "he makes a lot of apologies for creepy friends but he means well and won't mistreat you himself" or "he keeps bringing up dubious gross evo psych but I've never seen him be anything but respectful to the women in front of me" or similar criticism to that effect, because literally none of us are perfect and I don't know one guy in my life you can't make an observation like that about. And frankly, I can give you a brief list of observations like that about myself, particularly regarding class and race, because like I said no one is perfect!
It's just that being honest about the presence of normal small flaws makes it way easier to believe in the absence of the really nasty directly toxic stuff. And I'm just... God, I'm tired of the refusal to acknowledge ugly realities from people grappling with the MeToo movement and going like, so and so is clearly an evil irredeemable shitstain but such and such is still good! And then such and such turns out to have abused his status, too!
I imagine you're sick of that, too, and that's where your totally understandable impulse came from. I just--there's so much subtle shit that happens as a warning sign before they pull this kind of evil obvious stuff, and I get so tired at MeToo discussions only happening after multiple women's lives have been ruined and reduced to whether or not one artist is worth another woman's life, and not seeing any concomitant discussion in any outlets about how we handle this before it becomes malignant and hits the bloodstream.
posted by sciatrix at 11:57 AM on February 15, 2019 [9 favorites]
And frankly, that comes off a lot more trustworthy if it's paired with "he makes a lot of apologies for creepy friends but he means well and won't mistreat you himself" or "he keeps bringing up dubious gross evo psych but I've never seen him be anything but respectful to the women in front of me" or similar criticism to that effect, because literally none of us are perfect and I don't know one guy in my life you can't make an observation like that about. And frankly, I can give you a brief list of observations like that about myself, particularly regarding class and race, because like I said no one is perfect!
It's just that being honest about the presence of normal small flaws makes it way easier to believe in the absence of the really nasty directly toxic stuff. And I'm just... God, I'm tired of the refusal to acknowledge ugly realities from people grappling with the MeToo movement and going like, so and so is clearly an evil irredeemable shitstain but such and such is still good! And then such and such turns out to have abused his status, too!
I imagine you're sick of that, too, and that's where your totally understandable impulse came from. I just--there's so much subtle shit that happens as a warning sign before they pull this kind of evil obvious stuff, and I get so tired at MeToo discussions only happening after multiple women's lives have been ruined and reduced to whether or not one artist is worth another woman's life, and not seeing any concomitant discussion in any outlets about how we handle this before it becomes malignant and hits the bloodstream.
posted by sciatrix at 11:57 AM on February 15, 2019 [9 favorites]
I totally hear you. Please also bear in mind that I wasn't offering Jason Isbell as any kind of tonic for fixing anything other than the (repeatedly stated in threads about Adams) feeling that it's a bummer that Adams is so gross a person may feel they can can no longer enjoy his music. Same genre, non-shitbag.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:17 PM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:17 PM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
If anyone is still interested, there's a good Guardian article about indie musicians and "beta male misogyny."
posted by vunder at 4:57 PM on February 15, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by vunder at 4:57 PM on February 15, 2019 [6 favorites]
Here’s a a Spotify playlist for people who are sad about losing the music:
Leaving Whiskeytown
posted by padraigin at 6:55 AM on February 16, 2019 [7 favorites]
Leaving Whiskeytown
posted by padraigin at 6:55 AM on February 16, 2019 [7 favorites]
Mandy Moore co-wrote All Good Things, one of my favorite songs by the Weepies, though it was a Mandy Moore song first. I hope Moore's success in acting and music grows to eclipse Adam's.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:45 AM on February 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by nicebookrack at 11:45 AM on February 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
This article was first published on May 12th 2018: Phoebe Bridgers interview: ‘Ryan Adams and I got together on his 40th birthday. I’d just turned 20’ [paywall] : Folk-rock singer Phoebe Bridgers tells Patrick Smith how a fling with an older star led to her breakthrough hit
“hey so” “It’s been a weird week and I wanted to say a couple things…” — Phoebe Bridgers follows up on the New York Times story.
And Rolling Stone shares a few other statements found on social media from Jenny Lewis, Liz Phair, and Karen Elson.
posted by boost ventilator at 6:48 PM on February 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
“hey so” “It’s been a weird week and I wanted to say a couple things…” — Phoebe Bridgers follows up on the New York Times story.
And Rolling Stone shares a few other statements found on social media from Jenny Lewis, Liz Phair, and Karen Elson.
posted by boost ventilator at 6:48 PM on February 17, 2019 [1 favorite]
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posted by allkindsoftime at 3:22 PM on February 13, 2019 [8 favorites]