“s/he shook my rack/bookshelf”
February 15, 2019 7:09 AM Subscribe
What does ‘I love you’ mean? It depends on where you say it and what language you speak. Translators, scholars, and dating coaches from various countries discuss expressions of love. -- Alice Robb for the Washington Post.
It can really mean ‘ I want a maid!’
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:36 AM on February 15, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:36 AM on February 15, 2019 [5 favorites]
I kinda wish I could erase "I love you" as a Crucial Relationship Milestone in American society. To me it's sort of like the concept of losing your virginity - it doesn't deserve as much weight as we give it, and it leads to all kinds of unnecessary weirdness.
Like - my first BF told me he loved me after a week. I didn't really feel that feeling for him until a couple of months in. But we might have been working with totally different definitions of the word, and if it wasn't such a big cultural deal, we could have just felt our feelings and avoided two months of angst as I tried to figure out whether I loved him or not and what that would even mean.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:52 AM on February 15, 2019 [6 favorites]
Like - my first BF told me he loved me after a week. I didn't really feel that feeling for him until a couple of months in. But we might have been working with totally different definitions of the word, and if it wasn't such a big cultural deal, we could have just felt our feelings and avoided two months of angst as I tried to figure out whether I loved him or not and what that would even mean.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:52 AM on February 15, 2019 [6 favorites]
I know this was a Valentines-themed article but I wish there could have been a little more about the family-type "I love yous" that English uses. Like, it is a bit strange that we use the same phrase from parent to child, sibling to sibling, lover to lover, etc.
posted by Hypatia at 7:59 AM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Hypatia at 7:59 AM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
... it doesn't deserve as much weight as we give it, and it leads to all kinds of unnecessary weirdness.
And then you get workarounds like "I love you, but I'm not in love with you." I have platonic friends that I love, and at pinch points I have told them so, and they have told me. And that was fine! But in relationships, it scares us. If you don't feel exactly the same way, you have this terrible responsibility for someone's naked heart.
It's scary--some people think it means their partner wants to trap them for the rest of their life in a house with signs that say LIVE LAUGH LOVE; some people wonder if it means that their partner will do real damage if they try to back out. Why must the most wonderful thing be the most terrifying? C'est l'amour, I guess; but why?
posted by Countess Elena at 8:05 AM on February 15, 2019 [4 favorites]
And then you get workarounds like "I love you, but I'm not in love with you." I have platonic friends that I love, and at pinch points I have told them so, and they have told me. And that was fine! But in relationships, it scares us. If you don't feel exactly the same way, you have this terrible responsibility for someone's naked heart.
It's scary--some people think it means their partner wants to trap them for the rest of their life in a house with signs that say LIVE LAUGH LOVE; some people wonder if it means that their partner will do real damage if they try to back out. Why must the most wonderful thing be the most terrifying? C'est l'amour, I guess; but why?
posted by Countess Elena at 8:05 AM on February 15, 2019 [4 favorites]
One huge source of stupidity and confusion is the amount of work we expect a single pair bond to do.
Mainstream expectation is that we don't have live in extended family to help with children and illness, that nobody outside your family would help either, that men don't have intimatacy outside a sexual context, that the only "real" commitments are to a lover, a child, or a parent.
It's so pervasive that even though I know this sort of extended social connection is effective for taking care of people I still find the idea of actually participating bizarre and frightening.
posted by idiopath at 8:45 AM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
Mainstream expectation is that we don't have live in extended family to help with children and illness, that nobody outside your family would help either, that men don't have intimatacy outside a sexual context, that the only "real" commitments are to a lover, a child, or a parent.
It's so pervasive that even though I know this sort of extended social connection is effective for taking care of people I still find the idea of actually participating bizarre and frightening.
posted by idiopath at 8:45 AM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
I think fretting over saying "I love you" may be a highly individual thing, or maybe a generational thing. I spent a fair amount of time trying to analyze what I actually felt for my first girlfriend, trying to decide of saying "I love you" would be appropriate, overbearing, committing too much too early. In later relationships with other people as I got older it stopped being something I spent much time fretting about.
Well, ok. I'm pretty boring and have had only three relationships in my life. Saying 'I love you' was a major milestone and thing both of us discussed and worried about for the first relationship. The second relationship explicitly didn't involve love, just sex. I married the third woman I ever went out with and saying "I love you" seemed perfectly natural to both of us after only a few dates.
My son is 12 and he and his girlfriend of a whole eighteen days say it to each other on the phone with no apparent hesitation or concern. I don't know if that's normal, or them being unusual. Either way it's probably healthier than my own teenage self's deep concern with the phrase.
Though, thanks to Charles Stross I do sometimes vaguely worry that I'll hear "_ ____ ___" one day...
I always thought Japanese was interesting in how affection was shown. Like many languages it has a formalized system of speech that's often characterized as "honorific" or "polite", but that doesn't really accurately describe it. I'd argue that the better term is "distal", because the more formal, "honorific", language is used to indicate social or interpersonal separation as much as anything else.
The most obvious way this is seen is how people address one another. People who are not close will tend to address each other as surname-san, or simply surname when one has a clear position of social superiority (bosses, teachers, etc). People more friendly might use a surname plus an honorific ending indicating a degree of closeness, or simply surname (not indicating social superiority in this case, but dropping an honorific to indicate a closer but still not really close relationship). First names and nicknames typically indicate a close friendship, and among teenage girls and younger women adding -chan to the first name of a female companion can also indicate a closer relationship.
But married couples will almost never address each other by name at all, instead tending to use second person pronouns, which are almost exclusively reserved for an intimate, extremely close, relationship. Pronouns are seldom used in Japanese, mostly you indicate third party to the conversation either by name or by saying "that person" not "he" or "she", and adding extra info (that female person, that tall person) is necessary to make it clear who you're talking about.
The second person pronouns tend not to be used in daily conversation as in Japanese it's proper to omit the subject of a sentence when possible [1].
Rather than saying "I love you" as a big relationship milestone, slipping into the extremely intimate forms of speech and addressing the other person as "you" would tend to fill that cultural spot. Which also fits in with the generally high context language and culture of Japan. If you aren't paying attention to what the person is saying and analyzing that for unspoken or implied meanings you're not doing it right.
And, the distal/intimate styles of speech can be used in a rebuking way. One of the example dialogs in a Japanese textbook I had involved a husband being greeted by his wife, who used "you" and intimate style speech patterns. Then him asking his wife if she'd done something that custom and propriety dictate she do. He spoke in the intimate style when asking the question. Her response was that yes she had. But she spoke in a much more formal mode of speech which, in Japanese was a none to subtle way of saying "yes, I did because I'm not stupid or incompetent and I'm offended that you felt it was necessary to ask".
It's entirely in keeping with everything else about Japanese that explicitly and directly saying "I love you" would be something that doesn't happen often.
[1] This is one reason why Japanese is what's known as a high context language, and why when speaking to a Japanese native they'll nod and make verbal acknowledgement at a rate which, to a native English speaker, would indicate that they're trying to hurry you along and get you to shut up. Unless you do that when speaking Japanese people will stop and ask you if you're following the conversation or will at least tend to stop and recap things.
posted by sotonohito at 8:59 AM on February 15, 2019 [6 favorites]
Well, ok. I'm pretty boring and have had only three relationships in my life. Saying 'I love you' was a major milestone and thing both of us discussed and worried about for the first relationship. The second relationship explicitly didn't involve love, just sex. I married the third woman I ever went out with and saying "I love you" seemed perfectly natural to both of us after only a few dates.
My son is 12 and he and his girlfriend of a whole eighteen days say it to each other on the phone with no apparent hesitation or concern. I don't know if that's normal, or them being unusual. Either way it's probably healthier than my own teenage self's deep concern with the phrase.
Though, thanks to Charles Stross I do sometimes vaguely worry that I'll hear "_ ____ ___" one day...
I always thought Japanese was interesting in how affection was shown. Like many languages it has a formalized system of speech that's often characterized as "honorific" or "polite", but that doesn't really accurately describe it. I'd argue that the better term is "distal", because the more formal, "honorific", language is used to indicate social or interpersonal separation as much as anything else.
The most obvious way this is seen is how people address one another. People who are not close will tend to address each other as surname-san, or simply surname when one has a clear position of social superiority (bosses, teachers, etc). People more friendly might use a surname plus an honorific ending indicating a degree of closeness, or simply surname (not indicating social superiority in this case, but dropping an honorific to indicate a closer but still not really close relationship). First names and nicknames typically indicate a close friendship, and among teenage girls and younger women adding -chan to the first name of a female companion can also indicate a closer relationship.
But married couples will almost never address each other by name at all, instead tending to use second person pronouns, which are almost exclusively reserved for an intimate, extremely close, relationship. Pronouns are seldom used in Japanese, mostly you indicate third party to the conversation either by name or by saying "that person" not "he" or "she", and adding extra info (that female person, that tall person) is necessary to make it clear who you're talking about.
The second person pronouns tend not to be used in daily conversation as in Japanese it's proper to omit the subject of a sentence when possible [1].
Rather than saying "I love you" as a big relationship milestone, slipping into the extremely intimate forms of speech and addressing the other person as "you" would tend to fill that cultural spot. Which also fits in with the generally high context language and culture of Japan. If you aren't paying attention to what the person is saying and analyzing that for unspoken or implied meanings you're not doing it right.
And, the distal/intimate styles of speech can be used in a rebuking way. One of the example dialogs in a Japanese textbook I had involved a husband being greeted by his wife, who used "you" and intimate style speech patterns. Then him asking his wife if she'd done something that custom and propriety dictate she do. He spoke in the intimate style when asking the question. Her response was that yes she had. But she spoke in a much more formal mode of speech which, in Japanese was a none to subtle way of saying "yes, I did because I'm not stupid or incompetent and I'm offended that you felt it was necessary to ask".
It's entirely in keeping with everything else about Japanese that explicitly and directly saying "I love you" would be something that doesn't happen often.
[1] This is one reason why Japanese is what's known as a high context language, and why when speaking to a Japanese native they'll nod and make verbal acknowledgement at a rate which, to a native English speaker, would indicate that they're trying to hurry you along and get you to shut up. Unless you do that when speaking Japanese people will stop and ask you if you're following the conversation or will at least tend to stop and recap things.
posted by sotonohito at 8:59 AM on February 15, 2019 [6 favorites]
"we are in sync”
Which is the precursor to "we are NSYNC," where couples transform into a popular boy band.
posted by not_the_water at 10:51 AM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
Which is the precursor to "we are NSYNC," where couples transform into a popular boy band.
posted by not_the_water at 10:51 AM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
When I first got serious with my partner a section of The Road Less Traveled by M. Scott Peck spoke very clearly to me on what Love is and defined it wonderfully distinct from what was referred to as Cathexis (enjoyment):
"The will and commitment to take action to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth"
I recommend reading the book for more context.
When my partner and I started getting serious I was told that I was loved. Out of a combination of fear and habit I jumped to my stock answer that I'd developed and practiced with my two prior serious partners:
"Honestly, I don't know what love is. I know what respect means, what caring means, and what attraction means. I can say that I respect, care for, and am attracted to you. But there are so many ways to look at 'Love' and everyone seems to have their own definition, so if you don't mind I'm not comfortable using that word..."
I was looked in the eyes with deep loving kindness and asked the simplest question:
"Do you want to find out?"
We read the book together (to each other) and we've been together for over a quarter century.
I know correlation is not causality, but...
=)
posted by CheapB at 11:04 AM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
"The will and commitment to take action to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth"
I recommend reading the book for more context.
When my partner and I started getting serious I was told that I was loved. Out of a combination of fear and habit I jumped to my stock answer that I'd developed and practiced with my two prior serious partners:
"Honestly, I don't know what love is. I know what respect means, what caring means, and what attraction means. I can say that I respect, care for, and am attracted to you. But there are so many ways to look at 'Love' and everyone seems to have their own definition, so if you don't mind I'm not comfortable using that word..."
I was looked in the eyes with deep loving kindness and asked the simplest question:
"Do you want to find out?"
We read the book together (to each other) and we've been together for over a quarter century.
I know correlation is not causality, but...
=)
posted by CheapB at 11:04 AM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
A customer who had been going through an unusually fraught early-stage relationship came into my store one day. She sighed deeply and said:
She: The guy? He said the L-word last night.
I: Lesbian?
She: ...
...
The other L-word!
I: Ah, I see. How did that go?
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:17 AM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
She: The guy? He said the L-word last night.
I: Lesbian?
She: ...
...
The other L-word!
I: Ah, I see. How did that go?
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:17 AM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
“I love you, Eliza,” I said.
She thought about it. “No,” she said at last, “I don’t like it.”
“Why not?” I said.
“It’s as though you were pointing a gun at my head,” she said. “It’s just a way of getting somebody to say something they probably don’t mean. What else can I say, or anybody say, but, ‘I love you, too’?”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slapstick, or Lonesome No More!
posted by Jode at 12:35 PM on February 15, 2019 [1 favorite]
She thought about it. “No,” she said at last, “I don’t like it.”
“Why not?” I said.
“It’s as though you were pointing a gun at my head,” she said. “It’s just a way of getting somebody to say something they probably don’t mean. What else can I say, or anybody say, but, ‘I love you, too’?”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slapstick, or Lonesome No More!
posted by Jode at 12:35 PM on February 15, 2019 [1 favorite]
trap them for the rest of their life in a house with signs that say LIVE LAUGH LOVE
In a lifetime of giving, receiving and feeling various kinds of love, I have never seen a more frightening definition of the word.
posted by headnsouth at 12:41 PM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
In a lifetime of giving, receiving and feeling various kinds of love, I have never seen a more frightening definition of the word.
posted by headnsouth at 12:41 PM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
Violet Evergarden had a hell of a time finding out, that's all I know.
posted by Scattercat at 1:17 PM on February 15, 2019
posted by Scattercat at 1:17 PM on February 15, 2019
I always think of my mom telling her high school boyfriend that she loved him. He immediately dropped her like a hot potato and wouldn't speak to her again until he found out she was engaged...and then wanted her back.
When you hear shit like this growing up, you learn darned well that A WOMAN NEVER SAYS IT FIRST OR ELSE SHE WILL DRIVE A MAN AWAY.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:13 AM on February 16, 2019
When you hear shit like this growing up, you learn darned well that A WOMAN NEVER SAYS IT FIRST OR ELSE SHE WILL DRIVE A MAN AWAY.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:13 AM on February 16, 2019
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