The difference between being 'broke' and living in poverty
March 16, 2019 6:18 AM Subscribe
This article recently released by the Guardian explores the fine line that divides life when you feel you can't afford what you want, and life when you are struggling to afford food. It begs the question - what constitutes a full and rich life of 'enough' anyhow, and how much of that do we have in our control, regardless of income?
"Part of the problem is instead of comparing ourselves to the Joneses like we used to, we now compare ourselves to those picture perfect families and celebrities we see on
Instagram."
"Part of the problem is instead of comparing ourselves to the Joneses like we used to, we now compare ourselves to those picture perfect families and celebrities we see on
Instagram."
I think that this article brings up some shame is being poor (worrying about child protection, feelings around using food pantries) that I wish it would have addressed more? Like how careful she was to justify that she did everything she could to get more money, and it really made me really mad.
Being in poverty isn't shameful it is simply the money available to you for a variety of reasons.
It's this idea of coming from money to being poor is shameful which is this incredibly middle class experience that misses out on so many of society ills and discrimination and systemic failures.
I really really wish that would be discussed more.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:19 AM on March 16, 2019 [12 favorites]
Being in poverty isn't shameful it is simply the money available to you for a variety of reasons.
It's this idea of coming from money to being poor is shameful which is this incredibly middle class experience that misses out on so many of society ills and discrimination and systemic failures.
I really really wish that would be discussed more.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:19 AM on March 16, 2019 [12 favorites]
"Part of the problem is instead of comparing ourselves to the Joneses like we used to, we now compare ourselves to those picture perfect families and celebrities we see on
Instagram."
On the one hand, my gut agrees with this — I have a mental model of toxic masculinity (and maybe femininity, if I can call it that, thinking here of certain eating disorders) in which the human desire to receive attention by being the best at something becomes a poison because everybody’s pond is too big... but on the other hand, mass media has actually been a thing for a really long time, for most of the lives of most of the people who are alive now. Why should we think Instagram is all that different from television? I mean maybe it is but I’ve yet to see a specific case made.
I sympathize with the author’s point that people who can afford absolute necessities should feel grateful rather than poor. I grew up Catholic and this was a big focus of my moral education. I’m not 100% sure all the outcomes of this framework are salutary, though. Like, me not coveting someone else’s McMansion is great, but me always being fearful of my own actual poverty when I’ve actually been insanely lucky may inspire less generosity and more of like a survivalist mindset or something.
posted by eirias at 9:45 AM on March 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
Instagram."
On the one hand, my gut agrees with this — I have a mental model of toxic masculinity (and maybe femininity, if I can call it that, thinking here of certain eating disorders) in which the human desire to receive attention by being the best at something becomes a poison because everybody’s pond is too big... but on the other hand, mass media has actually been a thing for a really long time, for most of the lives of most of the people who are alive now. Why should we think Instagram is all that different from television? I mean maybe it is but I’ve yet to see a specific case made.
I sympathize with the author’s point that people who can afford absolute necessities should feel grateful rather than poor. I grew up Catholic and this was a big focus of my moral education. I’m not 100% sure all the outcomes of this framework are salutary, though. Like, me not coveting someone else’s McMansion is great, but me always being fearful of my own actual poverty when I’ve actually been insanely lucky may inspire less generosity and more of like a survivalist mindset or something.
posted by eirias at 9:45 AM on March 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
I was reading this article earlier, and the "previously" discussion, and then came downstairs to check on my son and daughter and daughter's sleepover guest. My son and the guest had not given thought to breakfast. My teenage daughter was eating chips and dip for breakfast because, she said, we are too poor to keep food in the house.
We are having a rotten couple of years and we are super-broke right now, but we are in no way poor and we have plenty of food to eat, I said, as I made a kickass pile of blueberry and chocolate pancakes using supplies that are not obviously "food" to a hungry teenager.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 9:52 AM on March 16, 2019 [14 favorites]
We are having a rotten couple of years and we are super-broke right now, but we are in no way poor and we have plenty of food to eat, I said, as I made a kickass pile of blueberry and chocolate pancakes using supplies that are not obviously "food" to a hungry teenager.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 9:52 AM on March 16, 2019 [14 favorites]
Becoming broke when you come from a stable middle-class background feels a lot like getting gutterballs when bumper bowling. You know that you came from an environment of immense privilege and it feels like a deep personal failing to lose altitude, because how could you let that happen when you had so many advantages? And so when that happens you fall back on the WASPy suburban pillar of Having Your Shit Together and ascribing intrinsic personal worth to things like going to the library, because despite your inability to maintain your wealth you have not, no siree, not lost the plot re: maintaining a plausible air of moral superiority.
It is such a mindfuck, growing up comfortable.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:03 AM on March 16, 2019 [19 favorites]
It is such a mindfuck, growing up comfortable.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:03 AM on March 16, 2019 [19 favorites]
I don't disagree with the article, but I do think it suffers a bit from the left's insistence on framing everything through language. Choice of language is often important, but is the real takeaway you want here "don't use the word 'poor' if you're not actually?"
posted by praemunire at 10:26 AM on March 16, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 10:26 AM on March 16, 2019 [5 favorites]
But there is so many judgements people who have lower socioecominic status. It doesn't dictate if your a good mother, or if you can raise kids or if you can have fun. It limits options but that's not a moral judgement. It's not like the emotional experience of being a family changes based on if you have money or not.
I just wish that this particular piece didn't wade into that territory. Of course people with money and oppertunity and privileges shouldn't say they are poor when they objectively aren't. But also, when discussing actually being poor observations that everyone else is just like them is important. That she wasn't some exception in the food pantry line. There were many mothers with disabled children. There were many people with illnesses and disabilities and surgeries. There were many who could have helped her figure out the passes at the library and taught her to maximize what she had. That it was a community of people that could have been her friends or support but she was so focused on shame she othered an entire group of people.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:50 AM on March 16, 2019 [5 favorites]
I just wish that this particular piece didn't wade into that territory. Of course people with money and oppertunity and privileges shouldn't say they are poor when they objectively aren't. But also, when discussing actually being poor observations that everyone else is just like them is important. That she wasn't some exception in the food pantry line. There were many mothers with disabled children. There were many people with illnesses and disabilities and surgeries. There were many who could have helped her figure out the passes at the library and taught her to maximize what she had. That it was a community of people that could have been her friends or support but she was so focused on shame she othered an entire group of people.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:50 AM on March 16, 2019 [5 favorites]
Why should we think Instagram is all that different from television?
For me, I was never under the impression that celebrities were living normal lives. It's easier to be fooled by social media.
Everybody's pond IS too big now. It's so easy to compare everything you do to someone's carefully curated life.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 12:04 PM on March 16, 2019 [6 favorites]
For me, I was never under the impression that celebrities were living normal lives. It's easier to be fooled by social media.
Everybody's pond IS too big now. It's so easy to compare everything you do to someone's carefully curated life.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 12:04 PM on March 16, 2019 [6 favorites]
It is such a mindfuck, growing up comfortable.
Right?! I grew up comfortable, and now I'm broke. Which is the language I use to describe my financial situation. But it involves selling plasma and maxing out credit cards to pay medical bills. I have a full time job and a stable living situation, and if I cut back pretty hard for the next several years and don't run into bad luck, I will be fine. I don't know what the line is between me and poverty, to be honest, and I can't imagine ever being poor enough to call myself poor, simply because I continue to have parents (who are not supporting me financially) who are upper middle class, and maybe claiming poverty is disrespectful to people who grew up with it.
Capitalism has fucked us all. I have regular panic attacks over my ability to continue providing for my child, and still I instinctively feel that I am one of the lucky ones.
posted by libraritarian at 1:25 PM on March 16, 2019 [8 favorites]
Right?! I grew up comfortable, and now I'm broke. Which is the language I use to describe my financial situation. But it involves selling plasma and maxing out credit cards to pay medical bills. I have a full time job and a stable living situation, and if I cut back pretty hard for the next several years and don't run into bad luck, I will be fine. I don't know what the line is between me and poverty, to be honest, and I can't imagine ever being poor enough to call myself poor, simply because I continue to have parents (who are not supporting me financially) who are upper middle class, and maybe claiming poverty is disrespectful to people who grew up with it.
Capitalism has fucked us all. I have regular panic attacks over my ability to continue providing for my child, and still I instinctively feel that I am one of the lucky ones.
posted by libraritarian at 1:25 PM on March 16, 2019 [8 favorites]
Poverty is a state of mind. There's no need to measure yourself against others. Feeding your desires all the time can be a miserable existence.
When you've got what you need, you can stop wanting and enjoy. The world can be quite wonderful then ... small things as much as large.
posted by Twang at 4:51 PM on March 16, 2019
When you've got what you need, you can stop wanting and enjoy. The world can be quite wonderful then ... small things as much as large.
posted by Twang at 4:51 PM on March 16, 2019
did everything I was supposed to... I didn’t use a credit card
This screamed either disingenuous or just ignorant - basically trolling - it's not "don't use a credit card," it's "don't keep a too-high balance (or any balance) on a credit card.
The author's misunderstanding of "only poors use credit cards" - and her reluctance to make use of available credit when it makes sense weakens her argument.
It's terrible that she got sick and was/ is unable to return to the workplace. I feel that social support for disabilities should be stronger and might have been a stronger thesis, how support to people with disabilities can augment neighbourhood social capital and all its beneficial effects for the entire neighbourhood.
posted by porpoise at 8:05 PM on March 16, 2019
This screamed either disingenuous or just ignorant - basically trolling - it's not "don't use a credit card," it's "don't keep a too-high balance (or any balance) on a credit card.
The author's misunderstanding of "only poors use credit cards" - and her reluctance to make use of available credit when it makes sense weakens her argument.
It's terrible that she got sick and was/ is unable to return to the workplace. I feel that social support for disabilities should be stronger and might have been a stronger thesis, how support to people with disabilities can augment neighbourhood social capital and all its beneficial effects for the entire neighbourhood.
posted by porpoise at 8:05 PM on March 16, 2019
Why on earth would she use her credit card if she knows she won’t be able to pay it off? She doesn’t want to be owing interest on top. Also, where does she say only poors use credit cards? (also she’s a poor and you’re telling her to use her credit card.)
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 8:38 PM on March 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 8:38 PM on March 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
For me, I was never under the impression that celebrities were living normal lives. It's easier to be fooled by social media.
Especially by the social media of peers and people who market themselves as "near peers".
What I posted today:
At the airport, on way to chill with parents
Walking in park by the sea
Eating great food with sea view
What I did today:
Spent most of that flight, my afternoon, and 3 hours after dinner unfucking someone else's spreadsheet so that I don't look like a moron tomorrow morning.
posted by atrazine at 4:18 PM on March 17, 2019 [4 favorites]
Especially by the social media of peers and people who market themselves as "near peers".
What I posted today:
At the airport, on way to chill with parents
Walking in park by the sea
Eating great food with sea view
What I did today:
Spent most of that flight, my afternoon, and 3 hours after dinner unfucking someone else's spreadsheet so that I don't look like a moron tomorrow morning.
posted by atrazine at 4:18 PM on March 17, 2019 [4 favorites]
The whole "I did XYZ and still couldn't feed my kids" narrative is because the author, like everyone, has seen people who don't do XYZ and wants to make it clear they are not that person.
Depression or dementia or addiction or mental illness can put a household into a state where it just hemorrhages cash, lost on fees and fines, and meanwhile they air condition the great outdoors and leave food out to spoil and their bank card was stolen and they haven't canceled it.
posted by elizilla at 9:41 AM on March 18, 2019 [1 favorite]
Depression or dementia or addiction or mental illness can put a household into a state where it just hemorrhages cash, lost on fees and fines, and meanwhile they air condition the great outdoors and leave food out to spoil and their bank card was stolen and they haven't canceled it.
posted by elizilla at 9:41 AM on March 18, 2019 [1 favorite]
I get the distinction between 'broke' and 'poor' and puzzle at the casual use of both (really I don't - its generally social lubricant to avoid things they didn't want to do in the first place) and it's definitely overused by just-out-of-college kids, but I figure if you are making trips to the food bank you can use either and it's cool.
Also, poor people statistically don't have much debt and almost no credit cards - which is why that Dave Ramsey stuff is for middle class spending problems, not pulling yourself out of poverty.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:22 AM on March 18, 2019
Also, poor people statistically don't have much debt and almost no credit cards - which is why that Dave Ramsey stuff is for middle class spending problems, not pulling yourself out of poverty.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:22 AM on March 18, 2019
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Oh god, I've been here too long
posted by ominous_paws at 6:27 AM on March 16, 2019 [5 favorites]