We have our own intuited, innate empathy

April 9, 2019 9:28 AM

Very Grand Emotions: How Autistics and Neurotypicals Experience Emotions Differently How a documentary about Ruth Bader Ginsberg opened a window into autistic emotions and how those feelings manifest.

“While watching the documentary about Ruth Bader Ginsburg, RBG, I had an epiphany. She said, “Justice and mercy. [ . . . ] They’re very grand emotions.”

And it hit me, that to me, those are two of my deepest-felt emotions. Justice, equality, fairness, mercy, longsuffering, Work, Passion, knowledge, and above all else, Truth. Those are my primary emotions.

I didn’t have the language before to be able to explain how profoundly these emotions affected me, conceiving them more as ideas than feelings. At least, that’s what I was told they were.

In the pursuit of those emotions, other feelings are secondary, superficial, misleading, and trite. Sadness, grief, jealousy, fear, joy, shame, sympathy… those are emotions which serve only me; but Truth and Work, Passion and Justice, longsuffering and Equality… those are emotions which serve the Greater Good. Those emotions are the mobilization of Love.

As long as the characterization of what autism means is pathologized and wildly misunderstood, the majority of autistics will not find their way to a diagnosis. Characterizing us as being without empathy is not only categorically untrue, but it also guarantees that we aren’t going to find our way to diagnosis and self-knowledge. It’s dehumanizing and unethical. There’s no way we can see ourselves as not having empathy because we feel a profusion of it.”

posted by Anonymous (19 comments total)

Solidarity is why when you tell an autistic something, we share with you our closest relative experience. We aren’t one-upping or implying we know how you feel… because we truly can’t. It would go against what we can know is empirical Truth to claim to understand your emotions through your perspective and in light of your experiences and history. It would be disrespectful to you, a platitude or a lie.

I'm nearly forty, and only in very recent years have I learned that when people with neurotypicality (I think that's their preferred nomenclature) tell you about something bad they're experiencing, they're usually not looking for actionable solutions, or even for evidence that others have experienced the same phenomenon, which would provide a reassuring sense of solidarity. Instead, for reasons I have yet to learn, the most usually desired response is a non-actionable statement such as "That's rough," or "I'm sorry you're having such a hard time." I've been practicing this type of response, and although at first it felt repulsively unnatural and insincere, it has become easier over time, and people do seem to appreciate it.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:54 AM on April 9, 2019 [46 favorites]

stoneweaver, you may appreciate the book "How Emotions Are Made", which approaches the idea of emotion from a similar angle; it abandons the idea that there is any such thing as a universal set of common emotions, and treats emotion as a learned experience, like language.
posted by crotchety old git at 12:35 PM on April 9, 2019 [11 favorites]

I read this article and found myself nodding along with every point and thinking "I could have written this myself."
posted by azuresunday at 12:56 PM on April 9, 2019

Instead, for reasons I have yet to learn, the most usually desired response is a non-actionable statement such as "That's rough," or "I'm sorry you're having such a hard time." I've been practicing this type of response, and although at first it felt repulsively unnatural and insincere, it has become easier over time, and people do seem to appreciate it.

Yes, and this leads to a lot of weird neurotypical behavior because the shit just comes out sideways. I feel like (as a "High Functioning Aspie") it's not so much that I don't have or experience (the same) emotions, it's that I can choose to set them aside in favor of some larger goal. To be able to do that, I need to know what the emotion is, identify what it needs, and then choose how and when I can satisfy that need. I find that most neurotypical people lack the ability to do this and they end up doing things that lack congruence with their emotional needs.

That being said, The Recent Unpleasantness really challenged my ability to do that - and the emotions were much too large to contain.

I dunno about this essay. I sort of get where it's coming from, but I can't really relate to her experience. How much that has to do with non-universality of autistic experiences, and how much has to do with my comorbid CPTSD, I don't know. It's worth thinking about some more, though.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:08 PM on April 9, 2019 [5 favorites]

I don't quite get the dislike for the non-actionable response. Giving a practical response feels natural and empathetic, but...

When I have bad news, I've probably already researched the thing and have a plan. If I don't steer the conversation towards practicalities myself, there's probably a reason for that. And it probably has to do with my opinion of the other person (or their judgment, expertise, discretion, etc.). "Oh, that's awful" doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy, but I think it's the recommended response for a reason.
posted by mersen at 2:33 PM on April 9, 2019 [5 favorites]

I have to remind myself constantly to praise people, to laud their efforts, to compliment their motivation and dedication when they (imperfectly) complete (trivial) tasks in a professional setting.

This performative encouragement feels like chalk in my mouth, but allistics absolutely thrive on it.

Being on the receiving end feels, to me, patronizing and manipulative and wasteful. But in coming to understand how my own emotional palette differs from the norm, I have accepted that people really do like being fluffed up this way. No, “like” isn’t the right word — it’s an essential and natural part of interaction for them...not the cheap hot air I see it as.

So, certainly in that respect, this essay spoke to me.

What vexes me is that for me to speak and respond in a way allistics are comfortable with requires that I behave with a modicum of insincerity. Which chafes. Candor is much simpler.
posted by Construction Concern at 2:59 PM on April 9, 2019 [14 favorites]

I disagree with the characterization of "reason," "truth," and "work" as emotions. They simply aren't. They certainly are ideals or intrinsic values, a primary focus on which many autists can identify with more than the exaltation of fleeting feelings.

That autists place greater importance on ideals and values than feelings doesn't seem controversial to self-dx me, although I'm glad that this piece is out there so that NT people who want to understand (and they are all too few) can do so.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 4:17 PM on April 9, 2019 [5 favorites]

I see justice and anger as linked. Any time someone is angry, it's because at some level, they feel an injustice has been perpetrated, possibly against them. This often goes wrong when someone gets a skewed sense of entitlement to things that they don't really deserve, but the feeling of injustice is still there.

I suppose there's a feeling of productivity or accomplishment, that you could call work? It's not just "I'm happy and the reason is I accomplished something" there is a distinct feeling to it, no?

Reason and truth feel like more of a stretch to me. They seem more like an external thing than an emotional state. A claim or chain of thought can feel true or reasonable, like riding in a fast car can feel dangerous. It's something you feel about something external to yourself, without it being an emotion, as such.
posted by RobotHero at 6:25 PM on April 9, 2019 [3 favorites]

I realize now, someone might say, if you're riding in a fast car and it feels dangerous, that's fear, which is an emotion. But you can also feel excited. So the fear and excitement are emotions, which are internal, but they both stem from the car feeling dangerous, which is external. This is the distinction I'm trying to draw. Reason and truth feel more external, to me.
posted by RobotHero at 6:40 PM on April 9, 2019 [1 favorite]

Yeah, if I tell someone that I had a rough day and they reply, "How awful for you," it feels invalidating. It implies that have no control over my responses to my life, like they are telling me how to feel. Sympathy is annoying. A good listener will ask me probing questions about what I am experiencing to help me gain better control of it. A bad listener will agree with me. That's no help, it means they aren't even listening or thinking about what I said. It's really hard not to think that it's just lip service.

I know a guy who told me that whenever he tunes out and realises someone was telling him something, he nods thoughtfully and comments, "That must be hard for you." He says this hasn't failed him yet.

I think I do okay talking to neurotypicals, if I don't get interested in the conversation and grab it from them, but I understand easily how they might want sympathy or encouragement - it's kind of like speaking a second language. You have to use the words and language they understand. So that's easy enough. It's the same as figuring out who wants a hug for comfort and who would be appalled and distressed by it. But it often means if I have something to say that might carry an emotional load, I can't say it because I will feel pushed away if they respond the wrong way, like congratulating me if I tell them about a triumph.

The worst thing is when I find someone who knows a lot about something - recently I met someone who is working on finding alternatives to glycophosphate spraying. She's into forestry. And she knew so much about it!! But I was only able to draw her out on it for fifteen minutes or so because although she said she wished she could tell people about it, she became sure that I couldn't really want to know about it. Lecturing is considered wrong for some reason. I don't understand why lecturing is not acceptable. We read non fiction books and articles. That's such a funny thing about NT's. They have so much to say and they refuse to say it because they can't believe anyone wants to hear it.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:57 PM on April 9, 2019 [10 favorites]

hello. guardedly self-identifying more-or-less neurotypical person here, reading with interest.

have reserved expressing my discomfort with that characterization of things i would call values as emotions, too, in light of stoneweaver's explicit (and the room's implicit) acceptance of that very characterization, but do now in Sheydem-tants' & RobotHero's wake. i like the idea of feeling justice (idly, until i reflect too much on what that might actually mean for me vis-a-vis each other sentient/living entity ever) being so familiar with those emotions attendant to injustice.

but maybe some things-a-typical-neurotypical-would-call-values-instead-of-emotions are experienced as emotions by some persons who are neuro-atypical; i think i felt my mind expand the tiniest bit just developing that thought.

i was struck by the descriptions of intuited solidarity and the sense of shared emotional landscape in both the article and the room, having heretofore, evidently, presumed the spectrum was more isolating.
posted by 20 year lurk at 7:14 PM on April 9, 2019 [2 favorites]

As a somewhat neurodiverse person myself, this idea of the “intellectualisation” of emotions is really interesting. It probably explains a lot of neurodiverse peoples challenges and frustrations with dealing with others and institutions that don’t share this model or fall short of expectations. It’s a fascinating idea.
posted by Middlemarch at 10:28 PM on April 9, 2019 [1 favorite]

> the most usually desired response is a non-actionable statement such as "That's rough," or "I'm sorry you're having such a hard time."

Isn't this a cliche men vs women thing too? I think I picked up the advice in that context, and it does feel kinda fake to do it, but I understand it as confirming the emotion is a valid response. Like, "yes, you're not being unreasonable in being hurt by that situation" instead of "stop being hurt, and fix the problem".
posted by lucidium at 3:56 AM on April 10, 2019 [4 favorites]

It's an eye opening article. To me, things like justice and fairness are societal concepts, and there are huge debates about what exactly constitutes them. I can feel them personally, but they come wrapped up in the awareness that I'm touching my individual piece of a giant, morphing shape defined by everyone around me.

I think the reassurance people want that Construction Concern talks about is because "classic" emotions also feel internally like they're things there's a huge debate about. Am I correct in feeling angry about this thing? Am I being a bad person if I feel happy now? Most of us would probably be healthier if we could just accept our emotions as valid as a starting point, but on the other hand some people really do need to examine their emotional responses to things.
posted by lucidium at 4:09 AM on April 10, 2019

but maybe some things-a-typical-neurotypical-would-call-values-instead-of-emotions are experienced as emotions by some persons who are neuro-atypical; i think i felt my mind expand the tiniest bit just developing that thought.

Yeah, that's an interesting idea. It also seems like maybe our classification of emotions is a little limited...what is the opposite of righteous indignation, for example? Being "passionate" about justice?
posted by pinochiette at 7:50 AM on April 10, 2019

One of the thoughts I've come back to more and more as I get older is how much difficulty there is in establishing commonalities between the way individual people experience life.

It seems to me that most of the time we embrace the belief in similarity because that belief is a buffer against what (to me) feels like a vast sea of loneliness. And so it is tempting for me to accept what I interpret as the appearance of common experience as proof that it exists. But this easily leads me to accepting the sensation of recognition as enough, even though I have no way to qualify it and plenty of incentive to ignore any weaknesses.

Bits and pieces of the article and the previous comments hit me. More so for the comments than for the article.

I know I'm probably not neurotypical. How much of that is bound up in my experience as a transgender person I cannot say.

I've spent a lot of my life confused by how other people relate to their emotions. Given I experience disassociation, my own emotional experience is often blunted or felt as if through a veil. Sometimes it shuts off entirely though I can often tell you intellectualy what the being that I am is feeling even if I don't seem to be able to access it in the moment of description.

But it doesn't mean I don't feel emotions or empathy. Actually I experience empathy in an often painful way. It's very hard to know people are hurting and not be able to help. I feel miserable watching dark comedies about people screwing up their own lives. I see news stories about disasters and violence and have trouble understanding how anyone can watch, unaffected.

And I totally do the "share similar experience in solidarity" thing that seems to be a fail for people unlike me. But I've mostly stopped trying to make helpful suggestions when people share their problems. Instead I try to acknowledge that this is painful for them, and encourage them to talk about it, to let out what hurts. And sometimes I ask if there's anything bi can do to help. Mostly it's about centring them as they understand it since they're the one's sharing pain.

But fundamentally, I don't feel like I see emotions in the way the article's author describes. And I'm a bit wary of speculating that any one set of people really has a strongly consistent set of shared emotions.
posted by allium cepa at 2:52 PM on April 10, 2019 [4 favorites]

a voight kampff for autism 'awareness' month: "some percentage of you who are reading this tweet are #actuallyAutistic and aren't aware of it. I'm going to post a bunch of questions I wish I had been asked in this context, years ago. This is not diagnosis! But it's instructive." (thread)

Do you need a lot of time alone? Even in a relationship or family, even when you really love the other people in your life, even (especially?) when there isn't anything particularly pressing for you to do?

Do loud noises cause you distress? Or background sounds that won't quiet stop? Do you prefer to keep the lights off? Are there foods you can't eat or fabrics you can't wear because the textures just "feel bad" in a way you can't explain?

When you think about interacting with strangers/acquaintances/friends/family, how much effort do you put into being understood? Are you compensating, without realizing it, for the fact that nobody understands you unless you reframe it in terms you've slowly learned they grok?

When you see a complex system, does your brain get excited? Do you just automatically find that your awareness can easily flow through the system, consider its many parts in relation to each other and the whole, etc? Do you understand more than you can say in this context?

Do you struggle with emotions, especially with emotions around other people? Do you sometimes suspect that you're not having the 'right' emotional response to something? Do you get _really fixated_ on things like fairness, or truth, or correctness?

Do you find that there are a small number of people in your life with whom you've connected immediately, powerfully, felt like you've known them all your life? People who can finish your thoughts and then add more, who push you rather than slowing you down? Are these people rare?

When you first entered 'society' (for me it was kindergarten) did you have a sense that everyone else must have somehow already known each other? That they all somehow knew the rules and you didn't, or something? Did you spend 5, 10, 15 years playing catch-up?

Everyone knows autistic people take everything literally, right? Well, sort of.

Do you make puns? Do you hear double-meanings in things others say and riff on them? Even to the point of annoying others? Do you compulsively point out ambiguity, even if you've parsed it?

Yeah.

Do you find that you have some days where you just can't human? Are you, like, mostly fine because that little voice in your head that says everything is on fire is easy enough to ignore, until it isn't and you spend hours sobbing for reasons that you don't understand?

[...]

You've probably read that autistic people don't feel empathy. This was medical fact for a long time, and understanding how it's wrong can explain a lot of the antipathy the autistic community feels towards the medical one.

The thing is, we feel _so much empathy_. You know how above I said we can project ourselves into complex systems? That includes other humans, or even societies. We experience these things differently - and our empathy can be orders of magnitude more powerful than you expect.

For instance, I started college in 2001, just after the 9/11 attacks. Every day on the news would be new horrors - terrorist attacks, disproportionate military response, obvious bullshit justifying obvious greed, etc etc etc.

It broke my heart.

I mean that almost literally - watching the news was a bit like going through a breakup. You see everything that could have been, and everything that is, and that delta between them just fucking destroys you. All that lost potential, all that needless pain. I sobbed, constantly.

Eventually I learned that my empathy was unreasonable and, according to everyone around me, unhealthy. I slowly trained myself to stop taking it seriously. I closed off my capacity to feel as strongly as I had, and for a long time it helped.

But it's not me.

Imagine living your life forced to ignore your own emotions. Imagine internalizing that the information your emotions were giving you is not to be trusted, and that if you act on it you will make others uncomfortable. Imagine how diminished your life would be.

I set out on the path that led to my discovery of my own spectrum condition in large part because I wanted to get back in touch with my emotions. I understood that I was living with a closed door in my head, and I was terrified to open it. When I did, I faced years of pain.

The really fucked up thing about the medical 'fact' that autistic people don't feel empathy is that it's rooted in a complete lack of empathy.

Like so many other 'deficits', this is only a deficit if you define neurotypical behavior as objectively correct.

One of the reasons it took me so long to realize I was autistic was that I felt empathy so strongly. This myth has done so much damage, to me and to so many others. It's completely false. Autistic people in general feel _so much empathy_ - but we express it differently.

And those of us who feel it too strongly have had to learn how to ignore it, or turn it down. When I don't react the way you expect to something it's not that I don't care - it's that I'm spending a huge chunk of my brain constantly regulating my own emotions.

This perceived 'lack of empathy' is often reinforced by the fact that many of us struggle to make and/or maintain eye contact.

Do you know how much information we get from looking you in the eye? Many of us can read more from your face than you could read from our biographies.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to have a serious conversation with someone when you can see the way they feel about your every word? How much more work goes into every expression, how painful it is when we cause pain?

This is not a lack of empathy. This is overload.

posted by kliuless at 12:14 AM on April 11, 2019 [19 favorites]

Thanks for posting that, kliuless.

There's a lot to think about for me in that.

I hate the pathologising of differences. The stigma inherent (and now I'm diverted by the recognition of the relationship between stigma, and sigma.) In being identified as "not-the-standard" has caused me to hesitate in seeking help for so many things in life.
posted by allium cepa at 3:18 PM on April 11, 2019

Well, I have waffled in the past on whether or not to suspect I'm autistic. For example, I remember reading a Temple Grandin thing where she described thinking non-verbally, and I was mostly surprised at the implication that people usually do think verbally.

And then I read something like this, and that does not sound like me at all:

Do you know how much information we get from looking you in the eye? Many of us can read more from your face than you could read from our biographies.

But it did get me thinking, what can I tell from facial expressions? And I realized that is more like the typical vocabulary around emotions: happy, sad, angry, surprised, afraid.

So are the limits of emotional vocabulary defined a lot by what emotions have established facial expressions? So it loses a lot of nuance around how people experience emotions by focusing on how do they convey them.
posted by RobotHero at 10:40 AM on April 14, 2019