Let's talk about Dark Souls one last time wait where are you going

January 6, 2020 12:34 PM

2010s: The Dark Souls of decades 2 [YouTube] “About 10 years ago, we began our journey into a dark and inhospitable world. A hostile realm where corruption and greed turned kings into monsters, and where hope was a half-remembered dream. Also, some of us played Dark Souls. Yes, it was the Decade of Dark Souls and the Dark Souls of Decades. It totally permeated the collective gamer unconscious. It just couldn’t be ignored. FromSoftware created this new strain of super-hard action RPGs as a deliberate counterpoint to modern design sensibilities. It’s a series that for better and for worse changed the way games are played, made, and talked about.” [via: Polygon]

• It's Been 10 Years Since 'Demon's Souls' [Vice Gaming]

“All I’ve ever wanted since coming to Waypoint is to find a reason to have Austin sit down and explain his love for Dark Souls 2. Though both Souls fans, we’re on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to FromSoftware’s messy sequel to their breakout hit. It’s his favorite, and it might be my least. He’s avoided getting pinned down on talking about it because any and all Souls discourse can be exhausting, so when I pitched a podcast where we looked at the past, present, and future of the genre, it seemed my time had finally come. At this point, it’s hard to remember an era when Souls wasn’t massively popular. When GameSpot named Demon’s Souls their game of the year in 2009, it was a legitimately shocking choice. But since then, Souls has become a trendsetter, and been forced to, over and over, reckon with its own legacy and popularity.”

• Games that defined the Decade: Bloodborne is an evolution, and a grisly distortion, of the Dark Souls formula [Games Radar+]

“They're known for their punishing difficulty, but before Bloodborne, From Software's action RPGs were at least pretty accommodating. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls let you approach enemies and hazards in whatever way you want – with magic from afar, from behind a sturdy shield, or perhaps by plinking away with a bow. But there's only one way to approach the eldritch monstrosities of Bloodborne: with a blade in one hand, a gun in the other, and the hope that it's not your blood that's spilled today. Bloodborne is defined by the pace of its combat, and while it's not entirely immune to low-risk strategies, it is overridingly aggressive. There's no real blocking in Bloodborne, and ranged options are either scarce, short-lived, niche, or all three. You can parry, but the timing is stricter than ever and the risk is considerable. The best and most reliable option is to master your weapon – whether it be an axe, sword, whip, scythe, spear, or some hybrid or other – and hack the monsters into bits before they can do the same to you. ”

• Fires Burn, Fires Fade: Dark Souls and a Decade of Difficulty [Head Stuff]

“In terms of influence Dark Souls is up there with the likes of DOOM, Metroid and Resident Evil. It’s reach is long and it’s grasp is wide. When Assassin’s Creed was looking to reinvigorate it’s combat systems it turned to Dark Souls. Lords of the Fallen may as well have been a direct rip-off. Independent games like Hollow Knight or Dead Cells were influenced by Dark Souls’ dying world aesthetic and maintained a certain degree of that infamous difficulty. As we grow further away from Dark Souls the influence of its difficulty slowly fades especially in 2019. Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice is perhaps the peak of the Soulsborne difficulty wave even though Sekiro isn’t really a Soulsborne. On the other side of this wave, the downward slope if you will, we have Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order. Whereas Sekiro was uncompromising in its difficulty Fallen Order introduced customised difficulty settings in favour of the accessibility Dark Souls’ influence had long shut out of gaming. Dark Souls was a benchmark for difficulty in the 2010s but while the desire to play difficult games still exists among a great many players there is definitely a point of over-saturation. The longer these games have existed for the easier it’s become to admit that I don’t mind if there is only one Bloodborne or that we don’t need another Dark Souls.”

• The Souls of Souls [Destructoid]

“What can be said about Souls that hasn't been said already? Pretty much everyone is using it as cringeworthy lexicon (I try to avoid it!) to describe any rewarding gameplay loop: thus is the power of Souls. Although 2009's Demon's Souls did a fantastic job of rekindling (ha) the spirit of From Software's King's Field series, it was the original Dark Souls that really took that formula off of the mean streets of Boletaria and into the collective zeitgeist. The unrestricted design of the Firelink Shrine hub is often cited as the eminent goal of open world games, and we've had so many copycats and honorable spinoffs in the eight-plus years Dark Souls has been around. Instead of championing it in a rote way, I'm going to tell you how the series impacted my life for the last decade or so. [...] Witnessing the pure magic of lit-up eyes of friends and family after they defeat a tough boss they've been stuck on has been one of my favorite single experiences of these past few generations. The Souls series forces you work for your rewards, which make those riches all the sweeter. I just ended up getting much more out of it than in-game loot.”

• Dark Souls is the cold at the heart of everything [Eurogamer]

“We could talk about the concepts that make up the soul of Dark Souls. We could talk about its merciless, stamina-based combat system, its knack for ambushes and split-second reversals, building on the already-withering example of 2009's Demon's Souls. We could talk about the pitiless yet engrossing principle of having players trek back to the site of their last demise, hoping to reclaim their hard-won XP before they are slain twice over. We could talk about the astonishing interweaving of the mythology with the online elements. We could talk about the bosses, each ravaged by pride and grief, ranging from balletic knights to behemoths that would have God of War fumbling around for a QTE. We could talk about its enveloping, yet pleasingly organised world, a cyclopean spiral stair that bores relentlessly up, from titanic graves through castles crowded with ghouls to the scooped-out eyrie of the gods. We could talk about the tantalisingly slight item descriptions, and the memes the game's baroque cast and library of player messages have spawned. We could talk about Artorias, Ornstein/Smough, "jolly cooperation" and "amazing chest ahead". We could also talk about how the Souls formula changed from entry to entry - flattening and unravelling a little in Dark Souls 2, though who could say no to the view from Majula's cliffside?; engorging itself with Stoker and Lovecraft in Bloodborne; darting into ninja fantasy with Sekiro.”

posted by Fizz (34 comments total)

While I will never play a Souls game, I really enjoy watching plays through. Why? It is a mystery as deep as a Chalice Dungeon, I guess.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:10 PM on January 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

If you only click on one thing from this FPP, you should click on the Vice Gaming article and listen to the podcast where Austin Walker talks about Dark Souls 2. I accept I will never get any enjoyment out of any Dark Souls-type games because that's just not the kind of gamer I am, but I will absolutely listen to Austin Walker talk about literally anything because he is just that good.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:12 PM on January 6, 2020 [7 favorites]

Also, Dark Souls II is highly under-rated and it was how I cut my teeth in the souls-like genre. I have both Bloodborne & Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice to get through and Elden Ring looks like it'll be released later this year, so for fans of this genre, we have a lot to look forward to. Here's hoping that Elden Ring continues the more recent trend of From Soft taking the concept of a souls-like game and tweaking it in ways that push how these games work and how we interact with them. Both Bloodborne and Sekiro were uniquely challenging in how they approached the formula.
posted by Fizz at 1:14 PM on January 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

i have a copy of bloodborne not located at my house due to tendencies. im replaying ds1 right now and also playing some other old games, and i keep trying to do creative or highly precise stuff in old games and getting hellla mad because the game wants you to solve a particular problem in only one way.

also the real point ime of dark souls is to get good enough that you can dress as outlandishly as you like. hat souls.
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 1:53 PM on January 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

The Eurozone paragraph evokes my enthusiasm for DS1 pretty well! I've probably said it before but the short little bit of Firelink Shrine music^ is an underappreciated pillar of DS1's amazingness. It is the music of having a shitty day and coming home to your crappy, dirty apartment.
posted by fleacircus at 1:55 PM on January 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

Yeah I'm currently on my first playthrough of Sekiro, and I'm loving it even though it took a while for the combat rules to click with me. But I so miss the "Fashion Souls" aspect of things here.
posted by all the versus at 1:59 PM on January 6, 2020

Does this mean Dark Souls is the Dark Souls of Dark Souls?
posted by Quackles at 2:17 PM on January 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Funny - I had never heard of Dark Souls until last week when I saw it mentioned in a "Best Games of the Decade" list, and now here it pops up again. But as others mention, it doesn't seem to be the kind of game I enjoy much, which would explain it not being much on my radar (along with the fact that I'm a pretty casual gamer most of the time).
posted by nickmark at 2:22 PM on January 6, 2020

Contrary to what Austin recommends, I'd say Scholar of the First Sin is actually a pretty good upgrade to DS2, which I already like quite a bit. It's a super video-gamey video game: lots of secrets, weird nearly useless details, tons and tons of items. One of my favorite touches is that the torch system is actually used, and lighting a torch always rolls the dice on being invaded by a Forsaken, who is a fairly difficult NPC phantom that also drops cool Berserk inspired gear.

Something they mention in the podcast is that DS2 has some of the best characters in the series (Lucatiel, Aldia, The Rat King, Pate vs. Creighton). I also like the general aesthetic (decaying high fantasy, as opposed to more grim or low fantasy in DS1 and 3). I agree with Austin's point, which is that having a game that doesn't care too much about spatiality is kind of cool, and leads to some neat moments. The character building options are pretty staggering, too. There are three distinct types of magic, each with their own considerations, as well as hundreds of generally viable weapons, and even more options with power stancing. The real stand-out for me are the NPC phantoms, which have a level of personality and AI that the series hasn't quite matched apart from Bloodborne.

The DLC are the real star of the show, though, and each of them is massive, filled with secrets, has a distinct storyline, and is capped by 1 or 2 amazing boss fights.
posted by codacorolla at 2:31 PM on January 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Which Dark Souls Boss Would Make the Best Manager?
posted by soren_lorensen at 2:36 PM on January 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

Get out of my brain codacorolla! All the reasons why I love DS2. :)
posted by Fizz at 2:36 PM on January 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

I finally managed to get some actual progress in Dark Souls at one point last year, and it was a mix of hair-tearing and really satisfying, depending where I was in the cycle of failing or pulling some shit off. Taking down the goddam Capra demon was a good day. Taking out those two big odd couple knightly dudes in the ancient shiny kingdom area was a very good one. Getting stuck in some asshole dragon's terrible library-slash-dungeon was a bad one and coincided with fatigue such that that's where the game sits, waiting for me to summon up the right headspace to try again.

It was enough progress to make me feel like I may end up having a relationship with these games after all other than just watching from a distance, though I don't know when I'll get back to DS1 let alone move on to 2 and 3 and Bloodborne and Sekiro and...it's an intimidating wealth of future gameplay if I get back on the train.

I recently picked up Star Wars: Fallen Order basically on the strength of an RPS review that said basically It's A Shame I'm Playing This After Sekiro, Because It Does The Same Things But Not As Well. Cuz joke's on you, buddy, I haven't played Sekiro yet so I won't know better! And...honestly I feel like I do know better insofar as even the line back to DS1 is clear enough that I can feel where Fallen Order feels sort of hurt by it's Star Warsiness and being borne of something other than From's design sense. But it's still pretty good at doing some of these Soulsy things; levels are big and puzzles to unlock through traversal, and the enemies range from not too much trouble once you get the rhythm to being things that are extremely ready to ruin your day before you get to the new bonfire (er, "meditation point"). All else aside about Fallen Order, it's nice to see an example of Souls design creeping so strongly into such a major franchise game.
posted by cortex at 2:59 PM on January 6, 2020

My favorite part of the soulsborne series is where I reach a boss that's too frustrating to take the time/effort to beat and accept I'm old now.

Yes, Sekiro too.
posted by avalonian at 3:11 PM on January 6, 2020

I recently picked up Star Wars: Fallen Order basically on the strength of an RPS review that said basically It's A Shame I'm Playing This After Sekiro, Because It Does The Same Things But Not As Well.

It's interesting when you compare this to The Surge series. It's often used as an example of a souls-like game that is simply skinned in another way, instead of a dark fantasy setting it is one set in the future with robots/human-mech hybrids. I personally enjoyed both The Surge and The Surge 2, but it doesn't do much to the recipe outside of provide a different flavour for those who are wanting to play a game set in a science fiction setting.

It seems like Star Wars: Fallen Order did a bit more than just skin the dark souls game in a different way. It's actually trying to incorporate souls-like ideas and throw in some RPG and Assassin's Creed type of game-play. I too am glad that developers are getting more creative with this genre of game.
posted by Fizz at 3:14 PM on January 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

DS2 has the best characters. I've been cosplaying lucatiel as an invader in ds3, and being a friendly invader for anyone that will toast gesture with me. DS3 wins hands down for gameplay.

One of my fave things is how everyone has an Achilles heel boss, and it's not always the same. Ornstein and Smough? Three tries for me. I have never died to Oceiros. Twin Princes? Capra? Rat King? KRYPTONITE.
posted by bfranklin at 3:37 PM on January 6, 2020

I agree with Austin's point, which is that having a game that doesn't care too much about spatiality is kind of cool, and leads to some neat moments.

Huh, I felt exactly the opposite. I loved how geographically consistent Dark Souls was - some examples where your bloodstain from one area is visible from another. Having to earn the ability to teleport between bonfires really worked as well while starting out with it in DS2 shrunk everything.
posted by dragoon at 4:22 PM on January 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

My take is that these games aren't difficult in the traditional sense of a difficult game. It's that they demand discipline. They're like learning a musical instrument... then playing an entire composition on that instrument in front of an audience without making an error.

The pull of these games is really hard to describe. I got furthest in DS3, and I made it pretty far through Bloodborne. But ultimately, these games just wear on me, I get to a point where I just can't take it anymore and I end up getting distracted by another game. But when I was fully vested and immersed in these games? They were like no other. They are COMPELLING to play in the real sense of the word. And gorgeous in their own ways.

That said, I'm hoping Elden Ring is more a departure from the formula. BTW, Metafilter favorite George R. R. Martin is collaborating on the development of Elden Ring!
posted by SoberHighland at 5:34 PM on January 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

I don't think Dark Souls is game of the decade (that honour is Minecraft's, in my opinion), but if it wasn't Minecraft it'd be Dark Souls. Before Dark Souls came out, there was still this idea in games that you should make the base game as easy as possible and add challenge in through optional areas that beginner players wouldn't stumble across and get discouraged. This was starting to change - Nintendo had grown tired of designing like this and had started experimenting with adaptive difficulty features that didn't condescend to people enjoying the challenge - but Dark Souls definitively answered whether there was an audience for unapologetically hard games (yes) and what made them good (be consistent, be surprising, and have that difficulty mean something).

That's the thing about Dark Souls: it has a reputation for challenge but its clockwork consistency means that even a relatively unskilled player can get a fair way into it. What gets you in Dark Souls is impatience and flailing, and most of the Asylum Demon's attacks have a long windup so it's not exactly a reflex-based fight.

If they don't finish, personally, I think that's a fair ending - the setting of Dark Souls is such that giving up when it gets too tough is a full and proper conclusion to the storyline. Dark Souls is a tragedy - it's not even clear that beating the final boss and restoring light to the world is even a positive conclusion, overall.

Ornstein and Smough? Three tries for me.

hsssss witchcraft

(Ornstein and Smough are a pair of knights you fight in Dark Souls 1, and are notoriously challenging. Typically in Dark Souls, trying to take on more than one enemy at a time is risky, so a pair of bosses at once is inherently tricky. They're both, simultaneously, doing one-hit kill attacks which means you need to be aware of both of them at once.)
posted by Merus at 5:51 PM on January 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

Also: if you want to see a truly terrifying entrance for a boss fight... check out Gaping Dragon's introduction from DS1 on YouTube! The graphics are aging, but the art direction is on point.

These folks know how to do scary monsters...
posted by SoberHighland at 5:57 PM on January 6, 2020

Pyromancy, not witchcraft. Tank build plus upgraded pyro and use the pillars for cover. If you get through Ornstein, Smough is too slow to get you.
posted by bfranklin at 8:13 PM on January 6, 2020

I could not really get into any of the Souls games but I ate up Bloodborne. Spent a Seattle winter and spring hiding in Yharnam, complete with the horrible load times of the initial release. I got the easiest ending eventually. Haven't felt the urge to get any of the other ones. And every now and then I pick it up again and try fighting the first boss in the DLC and... I'm just never gonna be willing to load enough of the nuances of how it plays back into my head to have even the faintest chance of defeating him.

I dunno. Yharnam's gothic filigree and ironwork just felt like home, I guess. Also I liked being a pseudo-vampire a lot more than a pseudo-zombie.
posted by egypturnash at 10:12 PM on January 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

I picked up Demon’s Souls when it first came out thanks to all the praise I was reading. The world building and environmental storytelling sounded great*, the strange multiplayer aspect was fascinating, and the idea of a combat-focused video game being a meta-puzzle to solve sounded intriguing.

I played it for just a couple of days before I realized that this style of game is very much not for me.

I think it was around the tenth time climbing a vast stairway peppered with skeleton ambushes that I finally made it through. I made a left turn and was immediately killed again by some glowing creature that came out of nowhere, and was sent back to the start. That’s when I decided: Fuck This. I wish I were patient enough to play this game, but I don’t have enough gaming time available to be satisfied with an inch of progress after an hour of play. I know, git gud, but I don’t want to git gud, I want to have fun!

Anyway, Souls-likes will probably forever be one of those things that everyone else likes but I shall never enjoy myself, like coffee, or football, or the Strokes.

*I recall an article, probably on Kotaku, about a level from one of the Souls games: You’re in a castle, fighting your way to the top, but you’re constantly dodging and avoiding spherical boulders that are rolling along tracks or falling from above. Typical video game obstacles. But when you finally get to the top of the castle, you see there’s a giant there whose job is to pick up spherical boulders and set them on a track to roll down through the castle below. I just loved the idea that this expected video game occurrence actually had a mini-story to explain it. I should probably just watch some pro stream it; enjoy the fun/bleak worldbuilding without having to tear my own hair out.
posted by ejs at 10:35 PM on January 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

I don't get the old complaint. My fingers move fine, and my brain is much wiser than when I was young. I'm replaying games now and just like wow, I used to just not think this through at all. Dishonored 2 at the moment.

Cunning before skill.

Also, you don't have to be that fast, seriously. If anyone reads comments like the I'm too old and just thinks well I could never do it then. I think most people are joking. You only age out of RTS, MOBAs and rhythm games super fast at the highest levels it seems. Slower was often better in Sekiro, you can push a bumper really fast, but attacks have actual connect times so taptaptap is better as tap /// tap/ tap// tap depending on the enemy.

Dark Souls was transformative for me because I loved exploring and just marveling at the world. Dark Souls 3 was a whole new world because you could buy it 3 weeks early on the Japan Xbox store. No online servers, no helpful messages, just you and swiping at every wall to find secrets while you streamed on Twitch for friends. I get that people love Skyrim, which I think came out a week before Dark Souls, but I tried both right then and would've hurled Skyrim into Mt Doom when comparing the two. It's not about the challenge, it was about experiencing a wholly built world that was magnificent. I was so bad at Dark Souls 1 and the strength build I chose that I had to literally restart because I just kept dying. But my skills had grown!

I accidentally got my girlfriend and her roommate into gaming. They're also playing Dishonored 2. She told me tonight how her roommate was replaying Dishonored 2 and laughing at her previous self who thought it was so hard. That previous self was 2 weeks ago and had never played a FPS stealth game! I love the growth. I see it now in how I'm playing it too. Games can be an excellent expression of who you were and who you have become if you let them and appreciate the journey, I think.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:43 PM on January 6, 2020

*I recall an article, probably on Kotaku, about a level from one of the Souls games: You’re in a castle, fighting your way to the top, but you’re constantly dodging and avoiding spherical boulders that are rolling along tracks or falling from above. Typical video game obstacles. But when you finally get to the top of the castle, you see there’s a giant there whose job is to pick up spherical boulders and set them on a track to roll down through the castle below. I just loved the idea that this expected video game occurrence actually had a mini-story to explain it. I should probably just watch some pro stream it; enjoy the fun/bleak worldbuilding without having to tear my own hair out.

Yes, this is an actual in game event. There are a few things like this throughout the series. Generally something is causing what is happening. This is part of why I love the series so much. Why was the giant up there? You might later find out via some item lore or perhaps you won't and I dunno, maybe he just liked being up there pushing boulders down at the enemy he spied.

The other great time I can think of it was when you could be targeted by essentially another giant just... throwing boulders? out in the open. or maybe I actually think he threw giant spears. Yes, that was it. But if you had an item in your inventory, it knew you were a friend somehow... it sensed it... and would not just try to constantly stick you to the pavement with just the huge giant arrows it was throwing down at you because it was a giant and fuck bows.

you got some great lore about that if you went up there. pretty sure the item was a white tree branch that something else had given you for being nice to it obliquely. shrug, dark souls.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:47 PM on January 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

Souls games are probably series of the decade for me as well. But that said, they all definitely have a certain, let's say obtuseness to them that the really suffer from. This conversation really got me thinking of what it would take to perfect the formula bring soulsbournes into the next decade. Despite all the imitators, none of them have quite pulled it off (I'm looking in your almost competent direction The Surge). Here's the direction I think they need to head.

Storytelling
This is the area I'll speak the least about, but I think the standard vague approach is not a requirement, just one possible From Soft-y way to do things. That said, as a person that cares little for lyrics or narratives, but cares deeply about tone and vibe, the standard Souls flavor works for me.

The World
Generally From's worldbuilding is top notch, not a ton to improve on. These games are at their best when they are a rabbit hole to fall down, both in lore and layout. The ability to get lost is probably a requirement, but it only works if it keeps luring you deeper and deeper. Soulsbournes do this well, especially when you're finding a back door to an area in DS1, but they could also further embrace the approach of some of the better metroidvanias in how to make retreading ground satisfying.

Difficulty
Honestly, I think the difficulty that has become synonymous with these games is optional. Mastery and victory are not the only forms of satisfaction. Sure, if it is by From Soft and has Souls in the title it should be You Died hard, but I think some other dev could make an accessible soulsborne that is still good.

Gameplay
It's time for the pendulum to swing back the other direction from Bloodborne's one style fits all combat. You could do this in the most soulsborne way possible by baking it into the weapons. Different weapons should not just feel different, they should play radically different, even if that means there are fewer of them. Pick up a katana and suddenly you're playing Sekiro. A dagger and it's all about that backstab. Duel weild and now you're parry fishing. A shield and you're now waiting for the right moment. A sword finds you playing watch the stamina meter and a great club puts you in punish the mistake mode. All of these options should be equally viable and fun and have dedicated UI and mechanics to differentiate them. As always, the only thing unviable is hack and slash flailing.

RPG Elements
Make the stats actually mean something for once. It's not just about picking the stats to match your weapon, but rather each stat changes how you play if you pump it. Make it clear when strength lets you one hand or off hand something. Add more strikes to the attack animations with dex. Make int increase treasure and secret visibility. Etc.

User Experience
Here is where things can be improved immensely. This is really a huge weakpoint for these games. To this day, I can't tell if a weapon will do more damage until I hot something with it. I have no idea if Poise is a real thing or not. Instead of obfuscating the game's depth behind walls is meaningless numbers, actually design and explain things clearly. Don't tell me a weapon has vague letter grade scaling, show me how much a stat point boosts it. Don't tell me a basic sword does 0 of every kind of damage except slashing, just show me the slashing damage and then the fire damage too when I forge it that way. Don't show me a dozen meaningless 3 digit numbers for different resistances I have, show me a percentage of those damages I ignore.

Inclusiveness
This is all but ignored in souls games. I think it contributes to the toxicity of the community.

One Last Unpopular Opinion
Souls games should have a map. But it's a map you can only slowly earn the right to fill in small parts of over repeated deaths.
posted by cirrostratus at 11:36 PM on January 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

As far as Polygon funny-person-commentators go in this post-McElroy era, Brian David Gilbert is, of course, 100% deserving of the acclaim he receives, but Patrick Gill is criminally underrated. He's a national treasure, and responsible for one of the greatest Jackbox moments of all time.
posted by clcapps at 3:48 AM on January 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

I love, love, love Dark Souls and Bloodborne, but I love them despite the difficulty, not because of them. I'm generally a person who plays a game for story, and if there's difficulty settings, I always start on Normal, sometimes even dropping down to Easy depending on the game.

But everything about Dark Souls... the dark, dying world, the environmental storytelling, all drew me in, and I was willing to put in the work to Git Gud, just to see more of it. But my absolute favorite thing about those games was the weird, wonderful multiplayer implementation that encouraged Community with Strangers. You couldn't just start a game in multiplayer with one or two of your friends and play the whole game that way. From the start, you couldn't do multiplayer at all, but you could see the *evidence* of other players out there doing their thing, through bloodstains and ghosts fading in and out and messages burned into the ground. Once you found the relevant in game item, you can, if you wish, summon some temporary help, usually from a complete stranger, or write your name down to offer help to anyone else who wishes to draw you into their world. And if you did manage to assist someone in defeating a difficult boss, that final wave or cheer to them before fading out and returning to your own world made you feel a little less like strangers, and a little less alone in the dark, dying world. It's an amazing feeling.

This is the kind of thing I want to see implemented in more games. Journey did it exceptionally well. Death Stranding, to a lesser extent, does something similar. The fact that From dropped it completely from Sekiro is what really disappointed me about that game. Without that sense of community, it's just a stupid difficult video game. Not my thing. I really hope they go back to some form of their weird, wonderful multiplayer system for Elden Ring.

Oh yeah, and Fashion Souls. They dropped that from Sekiro, too. Really, what is even the point of that game?
posted by Roommate at 4:20 AM on January 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

Cirrostratus: on your gameplay and rpg points, that stuff is all there. The "problem" is PvE is too easy (actually, too unvaried in strategy). PvP has much more varied weapon playstyles, and much more rewards going all in on a stat or two.

Ultras, for example, are unparryable when two handed. But they're slow, so flailing will get you backstabbed. R1 spam will get you a quick parry death with most weapons. Weapon speed is inverse to damage output. Spears don't require dropping a shield to attack.

I think this really just supports your comment on obtuseness, though. The game doesn't make any of this clear.

For those looking for a more accessible soulsborne, give Ashen a go. Lots of awesome worldbuilding, but 100% coop. Controls are DS1 sluggish, but still a good game.
posted by bfranklin at 4:24 AM on January 7, 2020

I recently picked up Star Wars: Fallen Order basically on the strength of an RPS review that said basically It's A Shame I'm Playing This After Sekiro, Because It Does The Same Things But Not As Well. Cuz joke's on you, buddy, I haven't played Sekiro yet so I won't know better! And...honestly I feel like I do know better insofar as even the line back to DS1 is clear enough that I can feel where Fallen Order feels sort of hurt by it's Star Warsiness and being borne of something other than From's design sense. But it's still pretty good at doing some of these Soulsy things; levels are big and puzzles to unlock through traversal, and the enemies range from not too much trouble once you get the rhythm to being things that are extremely ready to ruin your day before you get to the new bonfire (er, "meditation point"). All else aside about Fallen Order, it's nice to see an example of Souls design creeping so strongly into such a major franchise game.

I liked everything about Fallen Order except the combat. Every single fight with every enemy becomes a grind of block/parry/dodge chip chip chip chip chip away at enemies until you hit them enough times. Combine that with no fast travel, and having to grind through enemies to get to the mission then grind back through them to get back to the ship and it got very, very tedious.

I got almost all the way through the game and reached one of the penultimate mini bosses who blocked my Force abilities that I had ground through many enemies and planets to earn, which made the fight even MORE about block/parry/dodge chip chip chip chip chip chip chip chip chip chip chip chip... they made lightsaber battle like using a small chisel on a piece of granite.

I turned it off and watched the remainder of the game on a YouTube playthrough, where I saw that the final level was even more grinding through enemies to get to the boss fight.

I don't think this "Souls-like" thing is for me.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:10 AM on January 7, 2020

The difficulty question is interesting, because the difficulty serves a design purpose - a lot of the rewards in Dark Souls games are shortcuts back to the bonfire, and because they're so punishing, a shortcut that lets you skip a whole risky area gives you a huge sense of relief. Without the difficulty (and honestly, even if you can turn down the difficulty), a shortcut becomes what they are in Metroidvanias - nice, convenient, but ultimately forgettable because going the main path is slower but easier to remember.

The only way I can think of to reduce the difficulty and have shortcuts still be meaningful is to have the long way reduce some kind of renewable resource, or have the long way apply some kind of debuff that you have to go out of your way to clear. But these kinds of tricks don't work multiple times - Dark Souls has a couple of dozen shortcuts across its map, and part of the reason why the design is so attractive is because it doesn't require any unique resource to make shortcuts exciting.
posted by Merus at 6:01 PM on January 7, 2020

I have always understood the attraction of Dark Souls while simultaneously recognizing it is a matter of patience I could never summon.

But that video is numberwang-perfection of both content-rich and charmingly self-aware.

This is good and you should feel good for both posting and discussing it.
posted by abulafa at 8:42 PM on January 7, 2020

I really enjoyed these playthroughs by Irish video game commentator "Matthewmatosis":

Demon's Souls Commentary
Dark Souls Commentary

In addition to being pleasant to listen to due to the Irish accent and the Irish knack for talking at length, these videos are really interesting for their practical yet deep analysis of what makes these games so great (and where they fall short)

I have never played either game, but have watched hours upon hours of other people playing. Is that weird? I just find these games fascinating. Demon's Souls in particular was a game changer. It just seemed utterly unlike anything I had seen before. The fatigue mechanic, the Japanese take on American D&D, the super cool bosses and sound design...
posted by jcruelty at 9:33 PM on January 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

Speaking of accents, one thing I've really liked throughout nearly all the games is the voice acting. Some of it is very video gamey (like that recurrent rascal, Patches) but there's a nice amount of heart, especially hearing typically under-represented accents like (Bloodborne) Eileen's South/West Yorkshire twang or (Dark Souls) Domhnall's South Wales dialogue. These local accents aren't portrayed as being inherently dumb, which is a crap trope so often portrayed across various media; everybody has different wisdom developed through their very different backgrounds.

Basically, it's another small touch that gives the games so many layers.

(The only voiceover I can't get on with is the English dub in Sekiro. Uugh!)
posted by bumcivilian at 8:39 AM on January 8, 2020

I've been gaming since the 8-bit era and when I'm old and senile Dark Souls will be the only thing I remember about video gaming. That series has made an enormous impression on me. Particularly the sense of mastery one gets while playing it is an incredible experience to get from a video game.

I recall reading somewhere that its creator (well, technically, the director of Demon Souls, DS1 and of DS3) wanted to bring the mechanics of a bullet-hell shooter to a 3rd person action RPG. At first, the player doesn't see any possibility of progress, and step by step, after much trial and error, he becomes proficient in it to the point of wondering how he ever thought it was a difficult game to begin with
posted by Captain Fetid at 1:26 PM on January 8, 2020